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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview A-0015, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Bert Nettles discusses the state of politics and the Republican Party in Alabama in the 1970s. Nettles summarizes his past, the reasons he began his political career, and the political positions he had held up to that point. He spends a good deal of time on his 1972 run for the U.S. Senate, when industrialist Red Blount outspent him. During the statewide campaign, Blount, who had traditionally been a moderate or even a progressive, realigned himself so as to become one of George Wallace's allies. Nettles explains how he thinks this loss affected the Republican Party in Alabama. He emphasizes the need for honesty and ethics reform in the political system. Though the Republican Party in the South became more conservative during the 1970s, Nettles repeatedly insists that the stance fails to honor the heritage of the party and is not the key to the party's future. He believes the most important tactics are winning the urban areas and winning the black vote.
Nettles also discusses the many school desegregation conflicts that plagued Alabamians into the 1970s. Though he believes that George Wallace's legacy would continue to send moderates into the Republican Party, Nettles also hopes that as Wallace becomes more active on the national political scene, incoming politicians will begin to reform Alabama's state programs. He ends by explaining how Watergate had affected the Republican Party in Alabama and the ways they were attempting to mitigate the resultant backlash. He maintains that voters respect and support someone who openly supports specific issues, asserting that honesty is more important than just about anything else.
Bert Nettles discusses the state of politics and the Republican Party in Alabama in the 1970s. He discusses, among other things, desegregation, the need for honesty and ethics reform in the political system, and the effect of Watergate on the Republican Party.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
But the lieutenant governor really gets no salary.
No, no salary. It's not intended to be a full-time job. It's a legislative position.
He has no executive branch responsibility?
No.
Just a presiding officer.
That's one of the problems, and one of the reasons he was unsuccessful in getting his full-time resolution through the legislature. Because he wanted to continue to be the presiding officer in the senate, continue to name the committees in the senate and the committee chairmen in the senate—that's the power of the lieutenant governor—plus having the gavel, plus also being a full-time executive branch member. The number two man in the executive. And that's, you know, the conflict. The fellow who names the committees and who wields the gavel, who recognizes the people seeking recognition and who routes the bills to various committees. As in every legislature, we have graveyard committees and favored committees. And there was one bill, Commerce and Transportation, that got I would say over 50% of the hotly contested bills, last year. Before this last session, it was a nothing committee. But it just happened to be one that was completely dominated by state senators who were loyal to Beasley.
His authority to appoint committees, is that by tradition or is it statutory or is it in the constitution?
It's either statutory or in the rules of the senate. It might be in the rules of the senate that the committees are appointed by the presiding officer . . . by the lieutenant governor and by the chairman designate. Now they have threatened . . . and there's been some talk if a Republican were elected to lieutenant governor . . . that the senators would then change the rules and would come up with a committee on committees and also designate the chairmen of various committees themselves. Now . . . but that's never been done.
But by tradition—
By tradition, certainly, the lieutenant governor has always named the committees, usually in consulting with the governor.
Doesn't the governor usually pick the people?
Yes.
On the key committees.
On the key committees. See, this is what happened. The governor had
picked most of the people on the key committees in the senate. But then
when Beasley split a little bit from the governor, he had one committee
completely dominated by his own people, Commerce and Transportation. So
that became
That's the one where—
Can a senator protest the assignment of a bill?
Yes! But they don't do it.
They don't do it.
They kowtow to him. The saddest—
But you can overturn that, can't you? The assignment of a bill?
Yes, and they have done once or twice. But generally,Tuscaloosa News. I think he had the Montgomery papers. One of
the Huntsville papers. Still only got 20% of the vote. He was eminently
qualified, but he just couldn't relate to the average man in the street
and he was also underfinanced.
Where does Senator Pelham fit in?
Pelham is a brilliant intellectual, in a way. He's from a family . . .
old line Washington County family. This is the Piney Woods section . . .
north of Mobile County. As you came down from Tuscaloosa, if you
remember crossing the Tombigbee River? You went through from Jackson . .
. the Tombigbee River on the south until you got to the four-lane
highway. Most of that area was Washington County. It's very poor land.
You've got a few large family estates, but mostly it's people
struggling. The Piney Woods section. That's where he's from. His father
is an old line circuit judge up there from sort of the
family in that area. Judge Pelham, Joe Pelham was a big political power.
The way he went, Washington County usually went. For years, back in the
'30s and '40s. Pierre went off to Harvard where he was a cum laude graduatemagna cum laude graduate at Harvard. Came back here to
practice law. Been immediately tied in with Wallace. He was Wallace's
floor leader at the Democratic convention when Hubert Humphrey was
nominated for vice president and Lyndon Johnson was nominated for his
full term, in Atlantic City. When was that?
'64.
'64. And Pelham was on the platform committee and the spokesman for
Wallace at that convention. He ran for the state senate. In fact I ran
against him as a Republican, first time. We had been with the same law
firm. When I came to Mobile he had already left the law firm I came
with. No, in '64 was when I ran against him for the state senate. Think
it was in '62, the Atlantic City convention. Anyway, he was elected to
the state senate in . . . '66. You're right. '64 was the Atlantic City.
'66 he ran for the state senate. Was elected. And for eight years he was
up there. Probably the outstanding orator in the senate. Brilliant man,
but errantic. He jumps from one thing to another. He's got a lot of
populist in him. And yet he's also conservative and very much of a ham.
If you hear him talk . . . well, people would pack the galleries during
one of his filibusters. He was a great person to block legislation. But
he really got out of his element this last term when he accepted the
position as president pro temp of the senate and Wallace's floor leader.
That gave him the responsibility of pushing bills through. And he found
that just contrary to his style. He couldn't whip up enthusiasm for the
passage of something. He could singlehandedly block a bill or obstruct
something. Brilliant when it came to that. Or arousing public sentiment
against it. But he's abrasive. He can describe a person beautifully. For
example, Mobile has
Does he have any statewide interests?
I don't think so. He's had some problems lately. Some financial problems. Sort of tied in with some subdivision deals here and there. He, I think, is probably jockeying more on the national scene as a possible liaison man between the Wallace group and Kennedy. That's what he'd like to do. He was at Harvard this past year teaching.
Was he at the Kennedy Institute?
Yes, at the Kennedy Institute last fall and early part of the winter. And thoroughly enjoyed that. I think made quite a few waves up there. Those people are not accustomed to his style of debating, I think. There was a story in the local paper and Pierre was telling me a little bit about it last spring. He debated one of the McGovern leaders who also was at the Kennedy Institute or maybe on the faculty full time. And they were discussing McGovern vs. Wallace relative to the '72 election. And again, Pelham used his regular style and completely devastated the fellow.
Where is he vis-a-vis Beasley?
He was opposed to Beasley and then Beasley got an endorsement
On that Kennedy Institute, before we get through with this tape remind us
to talk about that again. T was a fellow there, '69. And they're always
looking for good Republicans to come up there for three months or six
months or a year or whatever. If you're interested in that sort of
thing, the procedure is that the former fellows—
What is your own background? Are you a native of Mobile?
No, I was born in Monroeville. Did you ever read To Kill a
Mockingbird? That was my hometown. It's about ninety miles
north of Mobile between here and Montgomery. It's a small county seat
town. I lived there. Born and raised there. Then I went to Alabama for
undergraduate and law school. University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa. Then
I went with the attorney general's office for a year. With MacDonald
The first one from here, in south Alabama, since Reconstruction.
We had had a Republican senator elected in '66 from Birmingham, but he
changed after . . . after one session he changed, not his registration,
but reidentified as a Democrat. So when I went to the legislature, by
then it had reverted back. Traditionally there had always been one
Republican in the legislature from Winston County, a north hill county
up in . . . north of Birmingham, which had threatened or attempted to
secede from Alabama during the War Between the States. And then in '72 I
ran for U.S. Senate for the Republican nomination. We had a big
interparty fight. The young Republicans . . . some of the leadership . .
. a lot of the leadership were unhappy with Red Blount and Jim Martin
and felt that neither one could win against John Sparkman. We were
uncertain that Blount would come back and run. We knew he wanted to.
JimBirmingham Herald.
They ran it themselves of the Republican leadership. All the members of
the state Republican executive committee and the county chairmen and
whatnot. I edged Blount out, led that poll. And then a month later was
trounced in the primary. It was a sad experience. Blount had about
55,000 votes were cast in the Republican primary when Albert Brewer was
running against George Wallace neck and neck. And I think it was
fantastic that we got out that percentage of the vote. It was well over
5% . . . almost 10%. We'd never had a statewide Republican primary
before. I had been the one to take the case to court forcing a
Republican primary. But in any event, we played right into the hands, I
suppose, of Blount, who had just a fantastic amount of money and spent
over half a million dollars in the primary. Of course was already very
well known. And people who were comfortable voting in the primary . .
.
He spent about $10 per voter then, right?
Yes.
That's got to be one of the all-time records. That's better than Fulbright.
But, anyway, he won it handsomely and of course when the general election
came along he tried to tag John Sparkman as a McGovern type and referred
to the Sparkman-McGovern ticket and just . . . Sparkman has his
problems. Old age is one of them. But he's never been a
Do you think it would have made any difference if he had run as Red Blount?
No. Because he couldn't relate to people out in the street. I think the only way a Republican could have won . . . it would have been an uphill battle . . . would have been on an issue, an image or what was Sparkman's chief drawback? His age. And have a young person with a new, fresh image you know, running against him. That's what we're convinced ourselves of. The money never came in.
You think it was Blount's campaign strategy that defeated him rather than the White House or the Committee to Re-elect . . . endorsement of Sparkman.
It was an endorsement, but I don't think it really mattered that much.
That's just a rationalization?
It's a rationalization.
What effect did that have on the Republican Party here when in effect Blount got dumped?
Well, it wasn't played up that much down here. It was just the fact that down here in the state election there was a letter, I think, that Blount published from . . . a Dear Red letter. Came out right before the election and a picture with the president that he ran in all the state newspapers. Full page spread. This very nice letter from the president. And the problem with Blount was he couldn't relate to the people, he couldn't build any issues. In Mobile, where we were full of these issues . . . he came down here and would talk about amnesty or busing and things like that. Trying to tie Sparkman to McGovern. Running strictly against McGovern. People wanted to know, really, what Blount could do for Mobile. Several of us had asked him . . . well, why not just say that if you go back to the White House, you've been in the president's cabinet, you can get the Tennessee Tom-Bigby completion speeded up. You can get more industry for south Alabama. Sparkman's been up in the Huntsville area all his life and concentrated there. But Blount went his own way. I don't know that anyone could have won that election. But certainly I don't think anyone could have lost it any heavier.
Do you think that election set back the Republican Party in terms of statewide elections, et cetera?
Yes. We have no viable statewide candidates other than the three congressmen. And they, of course, I think, at the present time, would be wise to continue to stay in Congress. Because they have a good solid following. I think they're respected in their constituency. Certainly Jack Andrews does here. I think Bill Dickerson has established himself quite well in his second congressional district. John Cannon has a good fight this time . . .
Who is he running against?
The president of the Birmingham city council. Nina Miglionico. Who is a
lady of considerable position in Birmingham and has long been in city
politics up there and will probably have the endorsement of the morning
newspaper, the Birmingham Post-Herald. I think John's
big problem would be if the Watergate issue blows up. Say if there's an
impeachment vote in October. Whichever way he goes can have a great
bearing on the election. Birmingham's a very volatile situation. It
swings back and forth. They had a very popular congressman, George
Huddleston, who everybody thought was safe as he could be. '64 came and
the rank-and-file voter just voted for an entire Republican ticket and
elected . . . turned the Congressman out and elected Buchanan
overwhelmingly. So he's got a little dangerous position there. Probably
is the weakest of the three congressmen. But other than those three, we
have no viable statewide candidates.
You were the first Republican legislator in 1969. What about in 1970? What happened then?
We had one other elected. Two of us in the house, none in the senate.
What do you think you're going to have this time?
We hope for between ten and fifteen.
Is that going to result in any kind of Republican caucus or anything like that?
Yes.
A Republican organization?
Yes it would. We already have a very close working relationship, the two
of us in the house. You only have 106 in the Alabama house. 105 the next
term. 35 senators. And we were . . . voted together
Comment on Doug Hale, who's a young engineer who is now completing his law school work in Cumberland School in Birmingham. Has several accomplishments. He is the person, I think, who deserves the most credit for getting the ethics law passed through the Alabama legislature. If you're familiar with this . . . it's the Common Cause ethics bill and it's probably the strongest ethics law of any state in the country. So strong that the courts are just emasculating it daily. They're letting out one group after another. And soon only going to apply to the legislators, is my prediction. But it was in committee. The speaker of the house . . . the senate had voted it, had killed it. Common Cause bill that had been introduced into the senate by Senator George Lewis Bailes and Richard Dominick. The house bill was in an unfavorable committee that was dominated by former house speaker Rankin Fite. Speaker Sage Lyons had placed it in that committee to ensure its death. Was very much opposed to it himself and said that he would not run for reelection if it passed. And he's not running for reelection. In any event, the committee refused . . . finally forced the committee to have a meeting. Doug Hale was a co-sponsor of the bill. Helped draft it and was one of the two sponsors of it. Representative Hill of Florence was the man whose name appeared first on it, but he began to sort of back off when he saw the hostility of the house leadership, legislative leadership generally, to the bill. So Doug, contrary to the advice of most people, took the floor on the last possible day to force the bill out of committee and something that had never been done in modern times in the house. Force a bill to be voted out of a committee. There is a procedure under the house rules for this, but it had—
Just roll call vote?
On a roll call vote.
What's required to have a roll call vote in the house?
Is it a discharge
Have 10%.
10% of the members present?
10% of the members present or voting can force a roll call vote. It's not really that much of a problem. Just a matter of the speaker recognizing that 10% call for ayes and noes. Then the speaker says, calls for ayes and noes that support it.
Yeah, but a discharge motion requires
Discharge motion . . . it requires a majority, a simple majority. And
this is in effect what that was.
Is Common Cause a strong organization in Alabama?
No, very weak. But it does have some good ideas. Many of us in the
legislature have tried to pick up the good ideas that are offerred, such
as the ethics legislation, and try to push that. What I'm saying is,
this was a man who said, "I've got nothing to lose. I'm not bucking for
a committee chairmanship. I'm not bucking for promotion. I'm not
concerned about patronage from the governor." So he went and
Yes, it's come up several times in the last . . .
Will there be Republicans in the senate next year?
I don't know. We have a possibility of one or two. It's going to be
difficult. The problem was that we were all set and ready to go with
single member legislative districts for the first time. You see. Our
strength's in the urban areas, primarily. And what we had to do in the
past was run . . . my constituency in Mobile County, the two times I got
elected . . . over 300,000 people. You've got certain Republican areas.
Your white-collar areas. Generally qualify as Republicans. But those
areas can be swallowed up in a hurry when you get out in the rural
sections of the county, the blue-collar areas and the black areas. And
although we've tried to make overtones . . . really not just tried to
make overtones, we have courted the black vote. It's still, when it
comes down to a Democrat vs a Republican, we [try to] cut our losses as
much as we can. So long as a Republican can attract 30 to 40% of the
black vote . . . in the past that's been figured as giving him a chance
to win. We haven't been able to do that even with some of the candidates
that have been running, you know. Wallace type. What's so
discouraging,
But you're able to get 30 to 40% of the black vote?
Oh yes. In fact, in my elections I've gotten a majority of the votes
voting for a non-black candidate. I've had black . . . the first time I
got elected, there was a black candidate running. Most of the blacks
voted for him. Of the blacks who voted for either the Democrat or the
Republican, I got a majority. The last time around, I got . . . I think
I got a majority of the black vote. There was not a black candidate. I
had a very hard-core Wallace type candidate, young, articulate, very
personable. Wallace came down and personally campaigned for. And I had
one vote that they kept throwing up to me. I was the only person
reelected to the house who voted against Wallace's stand on Prichard
What was this resolution?
This was a
The courts announced during the summer that Mobile schools would be
completely integrated. Announced . . . reestablishing the district
lines. And the courts had come up with a plan. Released it, I think, in
middle August. As to where the children would go. And there was a lot of
busing of white children to black schools and blacks, mostly blacks to
white schools. But Wallace made a speech in Prichard, which
And one of the things, one of the keys to it, the legislature . . . has been the fact that two blacks were elected in 1970 from Macon County, Fred Gray and Tom Reed, and they have conducted themselves generally quite well. There's very little racism on the legislative floor of the house and senate now. And I think with more blacks being elected you're going to have more communication between all segments of the community. You'll have at least three [blacks] who will be in the legislature from Mobile County. And it's going to be a healthy thing. They'll be able to speak from their sphere of influence, that area of the community. And I think that's an important thing that we've been missing.
Hale, from Huntsville.
Did you both come out of the Goldwater movement? Were you involved with that Goldwater movement at all?
No.
Was he?
No.
How would you describe the two of you ideologically?
Moderate.
Moderate?
How did you get into the Republican Party in Alabama? Why did you move into the Republican Party when you got politically active?
Well, my law partner had asked me . . . my senior law partner suggested I
run against Pierre Pelham. I'd never really thought about it. I'd worked
very hard at practicing law. He, of course, thought I'd run as a
Democrat. This was again, you have to remember, right after the
Goldwater sweep in 1964, when people thought you could probably get
elected as a Republican. That the old tantamount theory had been thrown
out the window. I thought about it and I felt like I could not be happy
with them. The Democratic Party was in complete turmoil. I was not a
Wallaceite. Wallace completely dominated legislative politics in
Alabama. At that time he dominated the state committee. Bob Vance later
emerged to take that situation away from him. And I couldn't sign the
loyalty oath. I had voted for Goldwater in '64 though I had not been
active in the campaign. And I'd voted for some other Republicans. The
Democrats had a loyalty oath which they required of all candidates to
sign that they had, in the previous election, supported all the
Democratic nominees for office. And of course this was ignored by many,
but I just felt like I'd be more comfortable in the
How do you feel about the majority of Republicans in this state?
It's difficult, really, to know how the majority of Republicans feel because we have only a very small hard-core group and that's constantly changing.
Let's say the organizational leadership.
Very comfortable. In fact . . . areas of disagreement I have with Dick
Bennett, our state chairman, but generally I feel quite at home with his
philosophy. I think it's . . . I disagree with some of his recent
statements, but I think he's a person who is trying to build a party.
The membership on the state committee. For example, the fact that I had
a plurality of the state committee members in a secret poll that was
conducted by the Post-Herald. Unsigned post cards that
went out. In the senate race against Red Blount and Jim Martin. I think
that indicates that a sizable portion of the state committee feel
generally as I do philosophically. If you look at the . . . You should
talk with Bill Harris, who is a young executive director of the state
Republican committee here, who is a full-time man, salaried. He was on
my staff in the senate race. Another person, Phillip May, who had been
with me is in a salaried position with the state committee and had been
a full-time worker in my campaign. You got a lot of younger people who
are getting involved in the Republican Party as an alternative to the
Do you think the Republican Party in Alabama is more moderate than many other southern states?
Yes, than in some other southern states. The young Republican Party is not all that active. But I would think if you looked at the last three presidents, you've got three very responsible, moderate people. The last three state chairmen of the young Republican federation. Neal Acker from Montgomery, immediate past chairman who was a very, I think, well qualified and reasonable young man. The current chairman, from Russellville, recent law graduate from Alabama, Jeb Sessions, who likewise has his feet on the ground and decidedly is not the wild eyed type on any issue. And the predecessor to Acker was Ed Allen, who was for a number of years . . . I think two or three terms, chairman of the Young Republicans. Also a lawyer. Birmingham. And these three, I think, really appear representative group of . . . . I'll match them against any of the Young Democrats. These are three people who are not . . . did not run for public office. Just interested in building, improving the political scene in Alabama. And who are middle of the road philosophically.
Then the Goldwater wing is not in dominance in Alabama.
No. I think the best evidence of that is the fact that Jim Martin is no longer in leadership position.
Where does John Grenier fit in?
John is very close to Dick Bennett, the state chairman, and through Dick Bennett and some of the other members of the state leadership of the Republican Party, maintains an active advisory role. But I think his role is advisory at this point. He is, unfortunately, much . . . he and Jim Martin polarized the two sections of the party. Sort of the moderates on the one hand and the hard-core right on the other hand. John was a very abrasive type and as party chairman he made a great number of people unhappy in forming alliances within the party to maintain his domination and control. So a lot of people who are moderate by nature and philosophy personally opposed to John Grenier.
I suppose the one group I sort of carried in the senate race were the younger voters, the ones on college campuses who voted in the preferential primaries. In the polls that were taken they were mostly in universities and colleges. I won almost all of them. Sparkman beat me in one or two. I think Blount ran ahead in one. But generally speaking we had a real good backing of these young people. Most of them did not register and those who registered . . . many of them did not register.
You're saying that the younger Republicans involved in politics are basically moderate.
Right. The young Republicans involved now . . . basically there are more moderate . . . they are more moderate than not.
What about many of the Republicans, the older Republicans who really got their start in the Goldwater years, between '64 and '66?
Well, you've got several different groups. You've got the old party
members who were born Republicans, who are basically conservative.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
So many of the hard-core people on the race issue have really felt at home with Wallace. And we lost many Republicans, committee members, some state committee members, who wanted to become active in the Wallace campaign. Who left the party. And so it's—
So George Wallace has had the effect of making the Republican Party in Alabama more moderate than in the other deep South states.
Than in many of the others, yes. I would say we're . . . I would identify
the Republican Party here with some of your more moderates in North
Carolina. Jim Holshouser. I've not been around him that much, but I
think he would feel at home with many, probably a majority of the
Republican Party here. You've got . . . one of my good friends . . . you
ought to talk with John Ritchie, who had been Governor Holton's
administrative assistant in Richmond, is, I think, a good example. I
don't know whether John had been an active Republican, really, but he
became very active with the Holton campaign and worked right along with
the governor for four years. We ran into one another through the Lamar
Society. It was interesting . . . a number of young Republicans . . .
Tom
What do you say about the assertion though . . . maybe this is a residual . . . the old southern strategy . . . but that the way to win, the way to build the Republican Party in this state and the South is to pick up conservative, white, Democrat voters, particularly on the race issue and build from there.
Well, you see, we haven't been able to do that, if you had that choice, because of the Wallace situation.
When he leaves the scene, if that's possible.
I would disagree with it. I think that's very short range and very short
sighted. Jim Martin tried that and was almost successful. He almost beat
Lister Hill on that theory. The U.S. Senate race back in '62. But it's a
short range proposition. And I don't see how any Republican in a
countywide—certainly statewide—position, can win consistently without a
good support among the black community. And I think it's . . . you just
can't cut out one large segment of the state. Cut them out almost
completely. And then hope to win two-thirds or three-fourths of the
remaining segment. In an area that's traditionally been Democratic. I
think that's very short-sighted philosophy, basically. And people are
more intelligent than that. Your situation has changed. You have got a
whole new generation of voters. You've got the old . . . even Wallace
himself has mellowed to a great extent, publicly, on the racial
On that score, do you think that's a basic change? Is it a real change?
Publicly it appears to be. But look at the people the governor surrounds himself with. Strom Thurmond has, I understand, some blacks in his staff. I don't know that the governor has any. In other words, Wallace is a great, masterful politician. Wallace remains Wallace, and he is still the one who made, as his initial inaugural address . . . the most defiant promise ever made I suppose in the last 100 years . . . segregation now and forever. And then he threw the line in the dust. Those were harsh words he spoke there. He's changed and the people around him have changed. I'm sure he's changed somewhat. I'm sure his close brush with death has been a factor there. But you've got to remember basically where his strength is.
Where is it?
His strength lies with the man in the street, the blue-collar voter, the
rank-and-file voter who figures . . . these are the people who voted for
Big Jim Folsom. He jousted with the windmills of the establishment and
with utilities and what not. And had some good things going. Huey Long,
probably is the best example of George Wallace syndrome. I read this
book by Harrison Williams, I believe, Huey Long, maybe
three or four years ago. And it's excellent. I know George Wallace well.
And from reading this book I would say you could put George Wallace and
Huey Long right together on just about everything except the racial
issue.
Except.
Yeah, except.
Except that Huey Long actually . . . you know, had these big
He built hospitals and schools and all the things that his populist rhetoric said he was going to do.
Your point is well taken to a great degree. Certainly where the utilities come into play. Wallace makes a big public protest and yet doesn't really fight the utilities.
Didn't he put a little tax on them and then let them get it back with a rate increase?
Yes. And he . . . the pass through feature was added to the legislation
and allowed that to be done.
But he's always given rhetoric against it but then he signs the bill when it passes. Right.
Yes. Now Wallace has done this, though. He has really been . . . done a great deal in the vocational school area and building up vocational training schools, the technical—
Didn't that really come out of the vocational education act for 196—
But he was the one who authored that act.
No, I mean the federal. Didn't a lot—
No, this came before then. It already . . . . Now a lot of the funds have
come from the federal act. But he . . . when he was in
Of course Strom Thurmond likes to talk about starting trade schools in South Carolina.
Yes, but I think Wallace can claim it with more accuracy. What I'm saying
is you cannot minimize the fact that he has done many things. I disagree
with him. I probably voted against him more than most in the
legislature. But he . . . education . . . there have been substantial
pluses for education. Even if it was a sales tax, rather than a property
tax. You see, we're locked into a very regressive tax structure here in
Alabama by virtue of the constitution. 1901. You'll recall, I'm sure,
we've had no new constitution written for this state since 1901. And
that was a constitution where they came in and the black belt, the old
bourbon aristocracy completely dominated that constitutional convention.
And that's when the laws were written into, the sections were written
into the constitution restricting the rights, right to vote, everything
else. And also very restrictive on taxation. You cannot place any
additional property . . . you cannot increase the property tax, city,
county, or state. Without a vote of the people. You cannot increase the
income tax—city, county, or state—without a vote of the people. The only
taxes, then, that you're left that will pass, unless you've got a all
out effort, Ruben Askew-type effort, would . . . and even then, in
Alabama you've got a little different situation than Florida, where you
have south and middle Florida with . . . more readily acceptable to
placing a tax on themselves. You've got a situation over here where the
only tax area left is sales tax, business taxes such as liquor and
cigarette taxes. That type. The regressive type. And as a result our tax
structure is heavily regressive. Yet we're locked into it. Until we get
a new constitution. And Wallace has not pushed for a
That's my point. And you compare him with Huey Long.
I'm talking about political savvy.
We understand . . . yeah . . . okay. We understand that Wallace, when he started out, when he was in the legislature, genuinely did propose, initiate, work for and push for economically liberal positions in the populist tradition. But that since he's been governor and when he really dominated the state—one of the strongest chief executives in the nation. And with his personal popularity, what it was, and his ability to dominate. That he would have been in a position to have really gone ahead and made those revisions in the constitution if he chose to. But he didn't do it.
From what we can see, he has the strongest influence with the state
legislature, and has since 1962, than any governor anywhere. By the
precedents and traditions of selecting the committeemen and so on. Yet
never has there been an effort for really executive reorganization. Got
one of the largest executive branches. No tax.
This is the problem.
The institutional and political power was there to do it.
Let me ask a question in following up on that. Is there . . . you said that Senator Dominick was one of the reform leaders in the senate. Is there any established Democratic reform leadership in the legislature?
Yes, there has been.
Is there now?
With the new legislature we will have some . . . a sizable
Coming in.
Coming in.
But not established?
Some of the old ones . . . some of the house members who have been
elected to the senate. Don Stewart from Anniston. Bill King from
Huntsville. Bill has Republican opposition, but Bill's probably favored.
Ronnie Flippo, who is to some degree.
Do you see this, then, reform element in the legislature . . .
When a new legislature comes in, this new group that's going to be majority newcomers, do you see them working actively for reform and being successful in it?
Yes.
This is more or less what happened in Florida.
I think they can be successful. In Florida you had this big situation . .
. quite different. And I'd be the first to admit it. Kirk gave the
Florida legislature no other choice. He was a Republican governor, to
begin with. The legislature suddenly asserted itself and said, "We don't
want a Republican running the legislature or running state government.
The legislature's got to be independent of the governor and we've got to
keep the Republicans from cleaning out Tallahassee and the state
government generally." And Kirk, by his very nature, was his own worst
enemy. He even . . . ended up that the sizable number of Republicans in
the legislature. They had a one-third veto control of the legislature.
Ended up with the reform movement because of Kirk's hard and fast
position against any type of reform. I've talked with Pettigrew
Would it be true to say this, as you look ahead, not only in the next four years but let's say eight years, that Wallace—suppose he leaves the scene in '78 . . . wide-open primary of the Democrats and so on. Plus you've got single-member districts. You've got a whole lot of new people coming in. Young people and so on. And that the era of reform may be four years to eight years ahead in this state in terms of the legislature. That it will assert its independence. Become a stronger branch.
Except . . . I think it's an overstatement because I think it's going to
come quicker than that. I foresee Wallace in the
Certainly greater in this decade then say in the past decade.
Yes, yes. By tradition . . . and you know this from any cursory study of
Alabama politics . . . the governor has the marbles in Alabama. Control
of the highway department is the number one thing, probably. And yet we
forced a highway budget bill through. It's been sort of a
Does he appoint the highway commission?
Yes. There's a cabinet member. There's not a highway commission. There's a director of the highway department and an assistant director.
They're named by the governor.
They're named by the governor to serve at his pleasure. Not confirmed by the senate or anything like that.
Do you see Republicans in the legislature in effect forming an active coalition as part of the reform movement?
Yes, I would certainly think so. It's one of the main reasons I'm running again for reelection.
How about blacks? Do you see that?
Blacks generally I think will be in the reform area plus many independent Democrats. You've got—
What's your relationship with the blacks from this area who are elected to the legislature, the new ones?
I know two . . . well, there are three who have been nominated. Only one of whom has Republican opposition, a black running against the Democrat nominee, in a black area.
A black Republican?
Yes, but he's got an uphill battle. Of the three, I know two quite well and certainly can work with them and have worked with them in the past. One of the . . . well, really, might say nominee-elect because he has no opposition. Jay Cooper's older brother, Gary, who is a very, very attractive fellow. Retired. You should talk with him. He's a retired marine . . . not retired, I think he's been head of the marine unit here in Mobile. Just been very influential with the black community, very well accepted by them.
Are he and Jay pretty much alike, politically and philosophically?
No, I think philosophically Gary, the older one, is more of a Republican and probably would have run on the Republican ticket if he felt like he could have gotten elected. Jay is younger and, I think, more of a Democrat. I'm talking about national philosophical basis now. Jay is . . . I think Gary's got his feet more on the ground than Jay.
Do you plan to run for minority leader?
Yes. Hale and I have a good working relationship and I would assume there would be no problem there. And with the idea that the two of us would . . . the fact that neither of us ran for the senate this time . . . felt like we had the best prospect of getting house members elected and we could have a sizable group to work with.
Do you see the Florida legislature as sort of the model that you would like to work toward?
Yes.
How about sunshine law? What do they have in the way of that here?
We have a law that prohibits closed door meetings of any state agency. There are a few exceptions to it. But generally everything . . . except where the good name of a man or woman has been discussed.
How about recorded votes in the legislative committees?
We haven't had that in the past very much. We'll be probably be getting more to it. I think it will be a good thing.
How about campaign reporting?
This was the bill that was introduced . . . the Common Cause bill by Doug Hale this last time. It never got out of committee. But I think we've got to do more for that bill. Bill Baxley is very—hope you talk to Baxley—a real comer and has really tightened down on the old law we have this time and is enforcing even some of the unpalatable segments of the old campaign finance reporting.
We sort of have a cursory impression that the level of political reporting in Alabama is pretty weak. Is that correct?
It's very weak in Mobile. We have one political reporter who plays favorites.
Is it weak in Montgomery?
Yes. Where it's strong really . . . by comparison . . . it's nothing like
Atlanta. What you have in Louisiana with the New Orleans papers.
Birmingham. You've got some good reporters. I don't want to . . .Birmingham News, the largest state paper, is very conservative
as far as its stand with . . . it takes the chamber of commerce position
on most tax issues and things like that, although they . . . most of the
newspapers do . . . did you happen to talk with Jim Boone in Tuscaloosa,
who owns and publishes the Tuscaloosa News and has
several other newspapers. He and I are close friends and classmates.
David Matthews, University of—
He was gone. We'd written him—
Gone to China.
Oh yes. But you've got some young, aggressive newspaper people coming up. Jim Boone already owns the Tuscaloosa, Selma, those two dailies and a number of weeklies around the state, biweeklies. He's very . . . well, on the Alabama scene, you would say he's very moderate, progressive type. Very responsible. But generally, the newspapers have let us down and Mobile is a prime example.
Who owns these papers? Are they locally owned?
Sam Newhouse.
I only looked at the editorial page one day and that was pretty bad.
It's every . . . every . . . very seldom . . .
Typical Newhouse paper.
Well, I don't . . . it's the type of thing . . . Newhouse owns the
Huntsville newspapers, owns the Birmingham News, he
prints the Birmingham Post-Herald and he owns the two
Mobile papers. The only
So all your major newspapers in Alabama are owned out-of-state. Have out-of-state ownership.
Yes. Of the four largest cities that's true. Tuscaloosa, Anniston, Decatur, Gadsden. See those, you're getting into your second area. Those are locally owned. But again, they're not statewide papers. Area papers. But the major cities, the four major cities, all of those are owned by out-of-state.
What's your assessment of the overall impact of George Wallace on this state's political development?
Bad. If one word had to characterize it. He's done some good things.
Can't help but admire him. I've been around him a good bit. He's
stronger now, of course, than he was before the assassination attempt.
He had some real problems going after the Brewer campaign. He had much
trouble with the '71 legislature. He was really not himself. His health
condition now . . . I'm not really familiar with . . . but he's got more
of a handle on the state, politically, now than he did back in 1970. And
where he's going with it I don't know. I just can not visualize George
Wallace in an influential position in Washington, and yet I hear him
being talked up all over the state as a possible vice presidential
nominee. All over the country, I mean. You know, the dream ticket:
Kennedy and Wallace. I'm very much opposed to Kennedy.
When the Birmingham newspapers endorsed Wallace for reelection, didn't that pretty much . . . wasn't that as telling as anything about Wallace being a liberal?
Yes.
Can you imagine—
Well, the Birmingham News. The Birmingham
Post-Herald opposed him. But of course you know the Post-Herald has shifted in recent years under Stewart
Legrand. Stewart Legrand is probably the most liberal . . . he and Randy
Aires . . . are probably the most liberal newspaper publishers we've
ever had.
Yeah, but even the Alabama Journal. Did they endorse
Wallace?
Ray Jenkins did?
No.
I don't believe they did.
They endorsed Folsom,
You'd have to show me Ray's editorial. He would have left the paper before they would have endorsed . . . Wallace.
They didn't endorse Wallace.
Where did I . . . . did the other paper do it?
. . . lieutenant governor's race. I don't think theAdvertiser took a position.
But the point is, there was no significant opposition in the state to his renomination.
And Gene McLean did everything he could. But Gene, again, his background, his record, is not all that outstanding. He talked a good game, you know, but nobody felt like he could do it.
Why did the Republicans not make a major challenge to Wallace this year?
Who do we have? One of the congressmen? Kind of important up in Washington in keeping what toehold we have.
Was the reason because there were no candidates?
No candidates. We have a candidate who's running who is certainly . . . there's been some problems there with him. He just jumped in himself. The idea was not to field any candidate. Concentrate on the legislature. The art of the possible. That's politics. It would take a million dollars and a viable statewide candidate to have a real chance against Wallace. And we don't have a million dollars and we don't have the viable statewide candidate.
Wouldn't there have been a potential, though, for building a strong coalition with blacks with an attractive candidate?
Yes, I think there would have been. But again, we're speaking of
hypotheticals there. Because the basic ingredient on a campaign like
that . . . and you can go and talk with Ruben Phillips in Mississippi
and he tried that. He had a pretty well-funded campaign. This was
several years ago. He ran for governor on that kind of coalition. And
again, there was disappointment. The blacks . . . well, look at the
blacks! They're endorsing Wallace. They're pragmatists. The Tuskegee
mayor. Several others. Evers in Mississippi. You know,
One of the impressions I've sort of gotten here in that Republicans in Alabama are sort of laying back waiting for Wallace . . . sort of dormant, waiting for Wallace to leave the scene in so far as moving statewide. Is that correct?
Well, we don't have the real dynamic type leadership that
Dick Bennett is not a dynamic leader. He's a good, solid, well meaning type. But if we had a moderate type, Clark Reed, say. More people in the legislature. That's something else. People are pretty well burned out, too. We've had some hard fights and we've lost them all, just about. Other than the congressional races. Talking about on a statewide basis. I'm trying to recoup, pay off my campaign debts from '72 and support my family. And most Republicans who have gotten out and worked at it hard seem to . . . not saying I'm burned out, I'm just sort of holding back a little bit, reestablishing myself. Hopefully there will be some other people coming along, getting elected to the legislature, who can move on up the ladder on their own. And maybe some of us can have a little role in pushing them forward.
With single-member districts, though, am I correct, that you would anticipate that? Republicans can continue to gain seats?
Yes. It's going to be difficult, again, because the voters now are very
independent and they're going to vote for the candidate they like the
most whether it's Republican or Democrat or independent. We don't have
the quality candidates in all the races that I'd like to see. As a
result, we're not going to pick up nearly as many seats as we had
opportunity to do. And I think some of that falls back on Watergate. The
only real noticeable Watergate influence would be on the fact that it
severely curtailed the quality of candidates we were able to offer this
time. Because right about the time we were . . . right in the beginning
of the recruiting stage and getting a lot of people interested. This is
the time to make your entry into Republican politics. You'll get elected
as a Republican from single-member district. Boo. All of this other.
People saying, "Well . . . " It turns them off
How much has Watergate done to retard the growth of the Republican Party in the South and in Alabama?
Well, primarily it's going to be a pause . . . it's not a real major stumbling block because people don't relate Watergate to local Republicans. But it's cut us severely in loss of leadership and loss of attractive candidates. People who were about ready to make their jump and then pulled back. It's not an auspicious time to—
What would happen if a Republican congressman voted for impeachment? In the South. Would it hurt him?
Yes.
In the long run?
Long run, probably not. You've got some courageous southern congressmen
up there. You've got some good ones. Jack Edwards, I think, is quite
good. How he's going to vote, I don't know. But the immediate, short
range, Jack could be reelected. One thing, he doesn't have any solid
Democrat opposition. You take a fellow like John Buchanan. John's
probably very worried about this. I mean . . . he's very worried not
from the standpoint . . . he's very concerned about what's been going
on. Background as minister. And yet he's in an area where there are many
hard-core types, Nixon supporters. Nixon support. You've got a hard core
there who would turn on him in a minute. And they've got a viable
alternative who would be picking up a lot of solid Democrat votes anyway
with this lady. It's a very uncomfortable position that
That's of course why he's been—
— the schoolhouse resolution?
It's an interesting thing that you have a number of green stamps with
your supporters. People who elect you. No one expects you, no reasonable
person—the rank-and-file I'm speaking of, the general-type voter—doesn't
expect you to agree with him 100% of the time. When you try to convince
him that you do, he doesn't believe you and he begins to doubt you. You
lose credibility with them. But as long as he respects you, you can vote
contrary to what he thinks and you can live with it. I doubt that when I
voted like I did . . . the local Republican leadership . . . one's a
federal judge, who was county chairman, was my campaign manager for
reelection. But he did it heavy-hearted, thinking I had beaten myself.
And I could not get reelected. And it was a dirty campaign and we had to
put out some, bring out some facts on the other candidate. Previous
police record. Many people believe the only reason I got reelected was
because he had a bad record, the other candidate did. But I don't think
that was it. But the point is, that people—I found this in my case,
certainly true—that if they think that you are trying to be honest, and
that even though they disagree with you, they're going to support you as
long as you, not on too many issues, don't get too way out. I doubt that
a McGovern type could win in Mobile
How would you define your own concept of the role of leadership of someone in political office?
Maintain credibility. I suppose . . .
You have anything else?
No. Anything else you wanted to add?
Just very interested and I hope you'll leave my name on your list of persons . . . as far as when you publish a book—
END OF INTERVIEW