© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview A-0031, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Arkansas Governor Orval Faubus reflects on the effects of his twelve-year tenure in the governor's mansion, state politics, and, of course, desegregation. Faubus paints himself as a populist who helped rescue Arkansas from backwardness with social programs and infrastructure. Merciless mischaracterizations from a lazy and hostile press have sullied his legacy, he claims, ignoring his many accomplishments and obscuring the true story of what happened on the courthouse steps in 1957. This interview will be useful to researchers interested in Arkansas politics in the middle of the twentieth century, the rising influence of the media in politics, and desegregation.
Orval Faubus defends his legacy.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
About your father, I've read that he had a great deal of influence. Your father.
Well, yes. He taught me some of the basic principles of life, you know. Like one of the lessons was if you want to hoe a little corn, hoe it clean. He did everything, as near as he could, exactly right. I remember, he and his brother used to make cross ties, you know, railroad ties. Larry would make about three while my father was making two, simply because my father took more pains using these we use in the hills. More careful about it. He got them as near as he could to the exact size. Hewed them very smoothly. Same way building a fence, clearing a field or cultivating a field. He could have gone through and plowed it and hoed it without being so meticulous. Made more profit from his labor. But he was just more particular and careful. Whether those traits are taught or inherited, I don't know. I sometimes think they're more inherited than taught. He was that way and I was that way too. But I admire him very much for that. And then he said, "Always make your word good. If you tell a man you'll do something, be sure and do it. If you're not sure you can, don't tell him." He was known as an honest man. He always tried to pay his debts and it was very difficult in those days.
His was a very liberal philosophy. He went beyond the old populists, I
guess. In fact, he became a member of the socialist party back when it
was considered radical. Quite unpopular. But he would be appalled now at
the, some
He'd simply be appalled now at handing out food stamps to able-bodied young people. Now he would be in favor of some kind of work program for them. You know, if they were in need. Because he thought there was enough work to do in this country. It ought to be done and people could be paid for it. But to give an able-bodied person who's able to work, just give them cash or food stamps, which is the same thing, I guess what you'd call the dole, as an old-time socialist who believed in work, he'd be appalled by that. So the liberalism of today has gone far beyond what even the populists or the socialists believed in at that time. Incidentally, I feel the same way about it. No nation has ever survived that started giving away the earnings of working people to those who don't work if they're able. Now for those who are unable, you know, disabled persons, old people . . .
I never shall forget when he got his first social security check.
Twenty-one dollars, I think it was. He was proud of it as he could be
because he felt like he'd earned it. He'd paid in the tax when he was
working. And here was something he could count on every month that he
lived. And that's something my father had never been able to
How would you describe yourself, philosophically?
That's a little difficult. You know I've been labeled everything. One of
my buddies in the army one time . . . we were going through basic
training. We were privates in basic training Camp Walters, Texas. And he
said I was a practical idealist. I guess if I had to apply something
which I think comes nearer to describing me that that would be it. I've
never been a conservative in that, you know, I wanted the few to still
be rich and the poor not have an opportunity to advance. Opportunity for
everyone. And yet I was classed as a liberal in my early days. Quite
liberal. Because I was I guess what you'd call populist. Many have
labeled me that. But now I'd be called conservative
But I've seen all that come to fruition. Social security. What you call
welfare grants or old age pensions, whatever people call them. Private
pension plans, governmental pension plans. Didn't have any for state
employees when I became governor. They weren't even under social
security. So I put all of them under social security and we expanded it
to county officials and employees, city officials and employees. And
then the nonteaching personnel in the public schools; like bus drivers,
cooks, janitors and so forth. They didn't have any retirement benefits.
And then we extended social security to school teachers and college
people, which gave them two systems, their teacher retirement system and
social security. Then two years later we set up a state retirement plan
for all state employees and later expanded it to all these others. So
that now anyone who works for government in Arkansas, when they get
ready to retire, when they're too old to work anymore, they have the
benefit of two retirement systems. And both of them are actuarially
sound. We had to revise the teacher retirement system to make it
actuarially sound while I was governor. No one could have been stronger
for the great social programs that Roosevelt advocated and put into
effect. Unemployment insurance, old age pensions which is welfare, the
work projects. Well, the CCC, NYA, WPA, PWA, all those. But each one
required that you do something to earn what you got except
At the end of your sixth term, having been governor for twelve years, were there any major things that you thought you hadn't accomplished that you still wanted to get done?
Oh, one in particular. We'd made considerable progress but we hadn't got
enough done. That's prison reform. Still relied mainly on the trustee
system which may or may not work about as well as the other if you have
the right prison head and it's administered properly. You know,
I'd like to see more construction there. Now we built a new hospital, we
built new barracks, we built a theatre. We set up an athletic
program.
But to protect them from each other, which is needed more now, I guess,
than before, you need a system of . . . I'd prefer to call them rooms.
More than a cell. Where a man can have his own hobbies. If he wanted a
library or material to paint, draw, woodcarving, whatever he'd like to
do. And that would be his own private place. And there he would be safe,
when he wasn't working or when he was out, any activity that required he
would be outside. That hasn't been accomplished yet. It should be as
soon as possible. Of course it's a big project. Cost a lot of money for
that much construction. But we did more new construction while I was
governor than I guess all the other administrations combined. They've
had some new construction since then. Prison reform
Any other major goals that you wanted to get done that you didn't finish? Other than prison reform.
Well, of course, we hadn't gone far enough in many fields, like highway construction, financial support of education. There was something else, I can't think of it now. But we came from so little, so little, when I was first inaugurated to the point we were when I left office, that it's been comparatively easy to build on that since I left. Man, if we'd had the funds they have now . . .
If you think back over that twenty-five year period from 1948 to 1974, what are the major changes that occured in Arkansas politics and government in that twenty-five years? You're one of the few people that was active throughout that entire period.
First, we changed from one of the most backward states in the union to
one of the most progressive. You'd had a progressive attitude in
Arkansas for some time among some of the political leaders. But the
state was virtually held in bondage by the economic interests. The
Arkansas Power and Light Company dominated the state from one end to the
other. They played a dominant role in the field of education. It was
culturally, economically, and politically. Scarcely anyone who ever
wanted political office survived without the support of that group.
Wasn't just the company itself, but those allied with it. McMath didn't
have their favor. I was in his administration. But he was unable to
overcome their opposition. They could beat him in the legislature. Keep
him from getting projects approved. They couldn't
Well, that broke the back of what I guess Franklin D. Roosevelt would have called economic royalists in Arkansas. And from then on the people had a say, the progressive people and the people that wanted to do things. They then, that leadership took a subdued role, tried to get along and take care of their company and their stockholders and ceased to attempt to dominate completely or control the political life of the state as well as the cultural life of the state. They still played a leading role economically. Now there were many things that were done in my administration that they joined in wholeheartedly, such as the industrial program. Naturally, it meant more business for them. Each new plant that came was a big paying customer. And all the employees were new customers, individual customers in their homes and small businesses and so on. And they gave fine cooperation in this field, as did most of the economic interests of the state. But that's the biggest change, was the freeing of the state from complete domination by those who were rich in the economic field. Economic royalists, I guess, would be a good term for them.
Now you've seen changes come about, of course, through the growing power
of the federal government. Which I guess would be the next biggest . . .
the federal government's excessive influence or domination in a number
of fields. That's just reaching its apex now, I guess, so what the final
results will be we don't know, whether it will be good or bad. I think
it was good for the state when we broke the chain of domination
And then as the state grew richer in finances, during my administration, we began to build many things, like vocational technical schools. To set up a police officers training academy which they needed, badly needed now. We set up educational television. Built a children's colony. No support anywhere from any powerful interest. Just people who were interested worked with my administration, and we were able to bring those things about. Rebuilt state hospital and one of the finest in the nation. The blind and deaf schools, the same thing. Arkansas was, I think, the second state in the union to authorize the construction of condominiums. We were the sixth state in the union to set up our own control for safety factors and for licensing of atomic power plants. Use of nuclear power. Were the sixth state to sign a contract with the federal government.
How about changes in the Democratic Party?
Well, I think the changes in Arkansas at the present time more
So under those conditions, which are nationwide, it seems there's a
tendency to vote for the candidates who say nothing. I mean you do a lot
of talking. They will. And they're very glib at it, to use one of my
father's old expressions. But when they get through you can't really pin
anything concrete that they have said for or against anything or what
they're going to do about this problem. They'll mention a problem, but
they don't offer a solution. And if they say they'll do something about
it, they don't say how. Now this is what Fulbright suffered from in his
race with Bumpers. Fulbright's always been a specific man. He doesn't
just criticize. For
I'm in more or less the same boat. Because in twelve years as governor
you have to make an awful lot of decisions. And every time you make a
decision, if it's controversial and there's very few things that aren't
a little bit controversial, you displease someone. For a time you can
favor all the big dams that they are building and displease very few. A
few landowners that had to give up their property. But then that grew
very controversial. So I blocked the dam on the Buffalo River.
Displeased a lot of people. And we'll save it as a national river. The
others are coming up now very controversial. The one over in Saline
County. Belle Folly. Cash River
Would you have run against Senator Fulbright if Governor Bumpers had not?
Yes, I might. Fulbright was due to be beaten. Just as I was in '70 after I got in the runoff with Bumpers. If I'd have gotten someone else in the runoff, think I might have won. Just as Rockefeller was in '70. If I'd have gotten the nomination, I'd have beaten Rockefeller in 1970. But in a runoff with Bumpers, didn't have a chance.
Why do you think he beat you?
He's a political phenomenon. He's cool. He's articulate. He doesn't
panic. And he's got . . . well, he's just got it. He handled himself
amazingly well. I don't think anyone in this state could have beaten
Bumpers for any office this time. Maybe not in the foreseeable future.
He looked a lot now like McMath did when he first came in. But the times
are different. My god, there were so many roads needed to be built when
McMath was governor. And you couldn't, maybe build two percent of them.
Who was pressing Bumpers for a road? We got so many roads now, you know,
that they think
Is there also a difference in the way the media covers governors or candidates? I mean television, has that made a real difference in the—
Oh yes.
—the way the campaign is covered?
Back in the time when McMath was governor and before and at the time when
I was governor in the beginning, when a candidate for governor went into
a town or a county, it was a big event. You had a lot of people turn
out. The curious would come. They'd come to listen. They'd come to see,
to make up their minds. They've already got their minds made up now
before you get there. Television, radio, and newspapers. Newspapers so
much more widely circulated. And they've had all this drilled into their
heads for so long, why, you find scarcely anyone going to a political
meeting now to hear a man to see whether or not he wants to vote for him
or what he thinks about. He already has an impression. The news media is
doing more to determine the fate of public figures now and the fate of
this country than ever before in the history of the nation, or I guess
of mankind. I can remember when I was a youngster, you know, we'd go to
a music party if there was one once a month to hear some music. Now
you're saturated with it. Radio, television, all the other instruments.
Appliances in the household. Sometimes you get tired of it and have to
turn it off. Whereas we were hungry for it. Well, that's the way people
used to be for, somewhat, for politics, especially those who were
interested. So they'd go to hear and to see. Even if it wasn't their man
and they already had someone they were going to support. They'd
Do you think that was true of your campaign in '70, '74?
After I got Bumpers, it was. Now he was relatively unknown but he had
this charisma and he was all things to all people. They didn't know
whether he was liberal; they didn't know whether he was conservative.
They didn't know what kind of background he had. In fact, he had no
public record, you know, other than city attorney in Charleston, which
is of little note. Important enough, but of little note. So when the
press began, you know, giving him this good publicity he'd get as much
benefit in one day as I could get in a whole month going and speaking
and trying to find people. Talking to them or shake hands. Mail
literature or anything else. And it was the same way this time. I made a
month's campaign, determined tour of the state. What I could see in the
crowds that I came . . . there were so very few of the undecided. Now I
changed someone's mind every time I spoke. But I couldn't get to speak
to enough people. Wrong time of year. Farmers in the field, even working
at night. Factory workers busy at jobs. And why would they go downtown
listen to a candidate speak when they can turn on a western drama or
whatever they want on television? Or get the news. Thirty minutes of
Walter Cronkite or somebody else, you know, that speaks with such
authority. But the Fulbright, the Senate race was decided at the time
they announced. Fulbright spent a million dollars, and he didn't change
over 2%. I know from my scientific surveys. Check with Gene Newsom, if
he'll open up and tell you. He'll tell you that. Spent a million dollars
and he didn't change anything. Part of it got me out of a runoff, but
They
Isn't that a basic change in Arkansas politics? Two candidates are pretty well-known. Doesn't make any difference how much they campaign. The decision was probably made long before the so-called campaign even begins.
Right. Through the news media.
Yeah.
You said when Bumpers ran against you in '70 people didn't know what he was, liberal or conservative or what. Now he's been governor four years. Do they know now?
No, they don't know yet, really. He's . . . I'd say more people would consider him a liberal than anything else, but they really don't know. Many conservatives voted for him even in this election, you know, against Fulbright.
You think he'll just remain someone very much in the middle of the road when he gets in the Senate, or will his voting record reflect a philosophical direction?
I doubt it. Not enough issues coming up now to determine that. He can
keep quiet. Be on a speaking trip or visit home when some controversial
issue comes up if he wants to. And he can pretty well avoid being
labeled, I think, for a long time. Until he gets nominated for national
office and then he'll be to the nation what he was to Arkansas. And if
he should get elected to a national office, and fairly good times
Do you think you may run again?
Doubtful.
What was the impact of Rockefeller on you and the Democratic Party and those people in the Democratic Party that identify with you?
Not a great deal of effect. See, Rockefeller ran against me in '64. I was running for my sixth term. And that was against all the odds. I had critics in every corner of the state by that time. But I was still able to win. Actually, what Rockefeller gathered up . . . since at that time I'd become classified as a conservative, which I don't think I've ever been. I've always classified myself as a liberal. Not the kind of liberals, you know, you have now, but in the mold of the La Follettes, Wisconsin, the new Farm-Labour party in Minnesota, Hiram Johnson of California, Pinchot of Pennsylvania, Teddy Roosevelt.
How about Huey Long?
And FDR. Well, Huey did a lot for the common people of his state. They
classified him, the press did, as a demogogue. Maybe he was to some
extent, I don't know enough about the man and he wasn't permitted to
live long enough, you know, to really see. But he built roads; took the
farmers out of the mud. He set up housing, of whatever kind he could on
the campuses of the college and sent young people of Louisiana to
college that never would have gotten to go. He stopped the exploitation
of the state by the Standard Oil Company, which had held it in virtual
bondage. If you read the history of it and see how they actually ruled
it. No man had a chance there, unless he was blessed by Standard Oil.
Just like it used to be in this state, you had to be blessed by
AP&L. Huey Long broke that bondage. They restored it somewhat
He was a strange mixture. I guess some of the things he did he had to do to survive against the opposition which he had. Just as some of the things I did while I was governor in the turmoil, you know, that came with the desegregation decisions. I don't know, maybe Huey wished he didn't have to face some of those things, just as I wished I didn't have to face that, that it never occurred, that it would never have been necessary. That we could have made the same progress in harmony and peaceably and with a lot more goodwill than the way in which it was done, or the way it's still going. I'd have to say that Huey Long's good overbalanced whatever there was bad about his administration. As an individual, I don't know. I wouldn't want to classify him as an individual. Whether he had desire for power that would have overcome the good that he was doing, I don't know. As I say, he wasn't permitted to live long enough to tell.
You were saying that by the end of 1966, even though you thought of yourself as a liberal you were classified as a conservative. Now Rockefeller comes in. What does he do . . .?
He came as a liberal because to garner the votes to get elected he had to pick up what I didn't have. And actually, he's more conservative than myself. But he was known as a liberal. Then when Bumpers came along all those people left Rockefeller. In fact, the biggest impetus for Bumpers' campaign in the primary came from the Rockefeller people. In nearly every county where Bumpers had an organiztion, it was made up, basically, of Rockefeller people.
Democrats for Rockefeller.
Yeah, the ones that had become Democrats for Rockefeller. So
Well, what he did in 1970 is contribute to your defeat. Rockefeller, indirectly.
Right, right.
So he did have an impact on you.
Yeah, but I don't think he was doing it intentionally. But he set in motion the forces which helped to overcome me in '70.
And those forces are still strong.
A great deal, yes. The same forces now that are the basis of Pryor's
strength. And perhaps of Bumpers, although Bumpers is expanded beyond
that. I think we'll have to say that. Well, for example, Bumpers voted
for Rockefeller. David Pryor voted for Rockefeller. They were what you'd
call Democrats for Rockefeller although not openly. So they had a
natural affinity with these Democrats for Rockefeller, which for the
most part are what you call liberals. More or less follow the Gazette line, the Arkansas Gazette
line in state politics. Now Rockefeller had some very decided
conservatives for him. Some businessmen. Like Louis Hurley down at
Camden or El Dorado. And others across the state. Because these old
conservative Republicans saw a chance for victory so they joined in
enthusiastically with these new forces that came in. And the combination
was what elected Rockefeller. The combination's what elected John Paul
Hammerschmidt to Congress in this district. He defeated my friend Jim
Trimble.
So what he did in effect is take what essentially is a Faubus majority in
the Democratic Party and turn it into a minority. Because
I think I got 36 or 37% in '70. About 33 this last time, but Bob Riley, of course, was getting a lot of my votes because he's a veteran and a Baptist.
But anyway, it went from a majority to a minority.
Yeah. But strangely enough, you find a lot of people who don't think that they are voting with those people. Because they have been prejudiced against me by the adverse publicity which has gone on for almost two decades. In central Arkansas there isn't a single newspaper that will give me, you know, even a fair, decent shake.
Why not?
Well, some of it's personal and some of it's philosophical and some of it's based on lack of understanding by young editors who don't really know what the circumstances were when I became governor. They don't actually know what the difficulties were which we had to overcome to get the state started on its economic progress.
Is it all basically tied to Little Rock?
Basically. Not to the Little Rock situation, but to the adverse publicity
that comes out of Little Rock. See, then when the Democrat became a pale shadow of the Gazette,
why, the Gazette became even more dominant and more
prominent. Because, like many of my friends said, "Well, if I've got to
have one or the other, I'll just take the pure, unadulterated kind. I'll
take the Gazette. Why get the Democrat when it's just a pale shadow of the Gazette?" Then the North Little Rock Times, Jacksonville News, Courier, Pine Bluff Commercial. All
out there in central Arkansas in your center of population. All of the
same mind. All the same attitude editorially and through their news.
Did they support you before the desegregation problem at Little Rock?
The Gazette supported Cherry against me, basically, in
'54, when I was a challenger. Then when Cherry hit me with the
commonwealth college issue, Harry Ashmore, then, was sympathetic to me.
But the Gazette as a paper, I'd say its attitude was
favorable to Governor Cherry. Then it supported me against Jim Johnson
in '56. But then after '57, why, it was totally against me, you see, all
the way. I mean, I could do nothing right. Nothing whatsoever, in any
field. Now you know, you and I could disagree on certain issues, certain
philosophical viewpoints, but I could still give you credit, say for
being honest or for paying your debts or for being a good family man or
helping the Boy Scouts. But see, I could do no good after I displeased
the Gazette in '57. And the way they do that, they
suppress the news of anything good that's done, you see. Like the
children's colony, as judged at an international conference in Canada,
is the finest on the North American continent. Well, that might make it
the best in the world. I don't know about that, the facilities in other
nations—
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
—and I had to get that thing through the legislature with political muscle. I had a few people who were interested. You know, who had mental retardation in their family.
Was the Gazette the only paper at that time, say '57,
that was really solidly opposed to you?
No, there were some that never were for me. Like the old conservative down at Pope.
But this widespread opposition, when did that develop? All these papers.
You say all the papers in central Arkansas won't give
Following '57. Not for sometime afterward. As these young, liberal people
got positions as editors or owners. It was a gradual process. And see,
they were raised on the Gazette. Many of them worked
there. Then they went out and got papers of their own. And they were all
thoroughly indoctrinated to begin with. And they never have checked the
record to see if I did any good. They've never checked the record like
they have charged me with a scandal of midnight pay raises, but they've
never checked the record to see what it was. Not a dime of money was
misused or lost. The pay raises were made by the highway director at the
time under the wrong authority. Had to be rescinded. And then created
great controversy. The controversy was created in the press. And then
within two or three months the same raises had been granted because they
were deserved by the highway workers. Nothing's ever said about that.
And then they say pensions for pals. But they don't name anyone who's
getting a pension, as they call it, or retirement benefit that shouldn't
have it. And Rockefeller used that widely, you know, in his race against
me. Which he lost. And then they used it in '66 when he defeated Jim
Johnson. The Gazette used it, you know. But the law
wasn't repealed. They examined it and found out it was all right, just
and fair.
Governor, you said that Huey Long had to do things, in effect, do things that he perhaps didn't want to do, but in order to do everything that he wanted to get done. And you compared that with your experience in the desegregation crisis. I'm sure you've discussed this many times in interviews, but did you feel that you were misled by President Eisenhower in that situation?
No. I felt very strongly that Eisenhower was a fair-minded man of
goodwill. And that if there were any opportunity for a settlement it
would have to be between the president and myself on that basis.
Therefore I did not take an attorney. Now I was misled in this respect.
When I got there they had the attorney general of the United States
there and I was not informed of that nor led to believe that there would
be any such. The only person that I had with me was my executive
secretary, Arnold Sykes, who was not a well-informed person on matters
of that kind at all, and Brooks Hays, who hadn't practiced law for
years, just been a member of Congress. I think he is a licensed
attorney, not sure of that. Because I didn't think it could be settled
by arguing over technical points or legal points. I felt it had to be
some kind of understanding, a meeting of the minds, on the basis of
goodwill, and that we both preferred harmony and peaceful methods rather
than any other. And in that, I do not believe I was mistaken about
President Eisenhower. But Eisenhower was not a man of his own. He had to
rely, as he always had in the military, on staff. Second nature to him.
And I'm not sure that he had the independence to rely completely upon
himself.
They had told Eisenhower nothing about the situation. I thought about it
in this respect. That if I, as a state executive, had had a controversy
with the authorities in a certain county, before I had a meeting with
those county authorities or leaders to try to settle an issue like that,
I would want all the information there was available about that
situation. The personalities and attitudes of the leaders. What was the
situation? What had they accomplished before? How near had they come to
complying with what was required on the part of the state? Or in the
case of the federal government, required on the part of the federal
government of the state. He didn't have any of it. And at first he
lectured me like a colonel, you know, talking to a second lieutenant.
And I sat and listened until he got through. Then I said, "Mr.
President, I have a lot of information about the situation which you may
not be aware. And with your permission, I'd like to make it known to
you." Then I began to tell him. For example, I was the first governor in
all the South to put black men on the state Democratic central
committee. Did that in 1954 before I was inaugurated. We desegregated
all the institutions of higher learning without any fanfare, without any
difficulty. This was accomplished by a meeting with the college
presidents where they followed my advice. We had more integrated public
schools in Arkansas alone than eleven other states combined that had a
comparable problem. We had black people serving as school board members.
Aldermen, in some cities like Hot Springs. We had
Well, the president was amazed at this information. As most people in the
nation could be right now, because the press never took the trouble to
tell anyone. In fact, my son was attending an integrated college at the
time,
So the president just yielded. Wasn't any more that could be done. I
started to speak up and to argue, but I'm not an attorney. I didn't
think I could dispute effectively from a legal standpoint with the
attorney general of the United States. But just as soon as we got away I
told Brooks Hays, I said, "Brooks, the attorney general is wrong. I have
read the court order. And the Justice Department is invited in by the
court to make any recommendations or suggestions that it sees fit." That
was in the court order itself. But we didn't have one with us. Because I
hadn't gone to argue the legalities of it. I'd gone to try to work out
something with the president, in which I was very successful in laying
the groundwork for it. And had him in the attitude of trying to help.
Now, I didn't tell him it would solve the problem, but I told him that
was the only opportunity. Said, "I can't assure you, Mr. President, that
this
How about the decision in '57 to refuse admittance to black students?
It was the only way to keep some black people from being killed. As one black leader said to me in this campaign, he said, "Well, Governor Faubus, you probably saved more black lives than you did white lives."
The assertion though is that you based that decision on the evidence from the school principal and him alone.
Oh no. I had much evidence. But my first information came from the school principal, or superintendent, rather.
You were convinced that that evidence was hard and real?
Yes. Wasn't any question about it. I confirmed it from too many sources.
And I was trained in intelligence during the war and part of my duties,
all during combat, was what you call military intelligence. So you learn
something about how to evaluate. And then I spent a lot of time in the
court system in the war. I was investigating officer for hundreds and
hundreds of cases. I was a special court judge to hear cases. I was
defense counsel for many many months and then I was trial judge
advocate. Then I sat on a special court and then
Did you have police reports, police intelligence reports on that? You never revealed that.
No, because the people didn't want it.
No, but I mean since that time you've never revealed that.
No, I haven't. I think I'm going to write a book and reveal it then, but I can reveal it anytime I want to now.
Why do you think the mob failed to materialize?
When I placed the guard there?
Right.
Because they had no reason to come then. The state was doing what the mob
. . . the results of the action which it took effected the same thing
which the mob wanted to have effected. So then I had influence with
them, and the police had influence with them. We could ask them to do
something and they would. I never shall forget . . . we
He made these threats?
So I learned about it and I sent the director of the state police to talk
to him. He went and checked it out and came back and gave me a
description of the man, his name and age and where he lived and
everything and said, "It's true." And said, "He feels very strongly."
And my police director was not a flighty man. He was pretty calm and
collected and pretty levelheaded on these things. So I sent him back a
second time and perhaps we had to go a third time. And we persuaded the
man that that would not do at all, to leave it to the authorities. We
were trying to protect the interests of the people and the will of the
people as best we could. And any action on his part, you know, of this
kind would just make matters worse and might even hurt our chances for
success through legal and political means. And we persuaded him to give
up his weapons. The police director took them from him. And brought them
and kept them in charge. Then I could tell you of a house in England,
Arkansas and the person who owned it. And on the first morning, when I
had word, you know, of the caravans . . . well, they were groups, there
weren't any big caravans noticeable. People don't travel in noticeable
caravans, you know, when they're bent on activity of thisGazette, if you go back and check its files, you'll
find editorials and news stories that were being released, you know, at
such and such time. And this is going to show, you know, what Faubus is
guilty of, and so on and so on. But it hasn't been released yet, because
they found, they confirmed these things. I'd like to see a copy of it
myself. Now if it had been otherwise, it would have been on Gazette would have had it in the headlines for
ever so long. Now I know what I'm telling you seems a little hard to
accept because it's going against everything you've heard, isn't it?
Not entirely.
Well, most of it, anyhow.
Did you realize at the time, though, that this would amount, in effect, to defiance of a court order and what would subsequently follow?
No, see, I never did defy a court order. When they issued a court order directly to me I evaded each time. I never was in defiance of a court order. Because I based my—
Wasn't there a court order to admit the students?
But I wasn't trying to keep them from integrating. If it had been
peaceful, they could have gone right on in. There wouldn't have been
anything done more than there was at Charleston or Hot Springs or
Bentonville or any of these other places. I was hoping that it would be
that way, but that wasn't the case. Course the Gazette
and the ones sponsoring it were largely responsible for building it up
because they had built up that they were all going to become heroes.
They were going to solve, overnight, problem for the whole nation. And
they were going to set the model and planning for all the rest of the
state and all the rest of the South and all the rest of the whole
nation. And when they began to proclaim this, that's when the other
people got interested and alarmed. They said, "Well, if it's going to
effect us, down here in Bigelow," or Elaine, or whatever, "we better get
interested." So you had the two forces coming together with Little Rock
going to be the example for the whole state and the rest of the South.
That's the reason the rest of the South got interested. Now if Virgil
Blossom
But I can show you some stories . . . the reporters were there a week or
ten days ahead of time before I ever knew anything about what I was
Now that's what they were doing, and as the report went out from Little Rock, about Blossom and Ashmore and all these people who were pushing integration. Before the reporter learned of actually what was happening. And I have that in my files. If they had tried to accomplish, in the Little Rock schools, what we accomplished in the institute of higher learning, without any fanfare, without trying to be heroes, it might have worked and there might not have been any violence. But when they began to proclaim that this is going to set the example for all of Arkansas and all the South, then these other people got interested. My attitude had been, as I told the people in each district, "Now you stay out of that district. You take care of your school affairs in your own district. If they want to integrate Charleston, you stay out and let them alone." Now this wasn't easy to tell some of those radicals. Because they could see every step was taken, see, getting closer to them and they disagreed completely. But I prevailed on them, and I got them to do that.
But then Blossom and Ashmore and Patterson made the mistake of setting up
Little Rock as an example for everybody. So they got everybody
interested. And I explained this to President Eisenhower. HeGazette. And of course they
lost, they claim, two million dollars in advertising and circulation
because of their stand in the Little Rock thing and they blame me
entirely for that. They'd have lost out if I never existed, because they
were going against what was the overwhelming will of the people at the
time.
What would have happened if you had called out the guard, made a very strong statement that the court order would be followed and that those coming under the court order would be protected, and that anybody with any other ideas had better just stay off.
I might have survived to the end of my term, but that would have been the last you would have heard of me.
Have you seen Neal Peirce's book The Deep South
States?
No.
He relates in there an interview he had with both with Governor
Rockefeller and with you, in which he says Governor Rockefeller related
a meeting he had with you the day before school was scheduled to open.
In which he said he pleaded with you not to do what you were going to do
and that it would end up hurting the state and so forth. That the tone
of it was
No, the last part you stated is basically true. The misinterpretation is
that he was wanting me to do just what you suggested in your former
question, that I uphold the federal court order. Well, that's the first
time in the history of the republic that the federal authority had ever
asked a state to enforce its own court order. If it's a narcotics
violation, they have narcotics agents. IRS agents and the FBI. But here,
you see, was cowardice and the complete abdication of responsibility on
the part of the federal authorities. But they could sit back and issue a
court order that was going to cause literally hell and destroy many
people, economically and politically. And they would just sit back and
fold their hands and let somebody else reap the storm. Well, hell, it
was their storm. A bunch of goddamn cowards for not coming in in the
beginning and say, "This is a federal court order. We're going to have
federal authorities here to see to it that it's obeyed and enforced."
Then I wouldn't have been involved. Could have left it alone. But they
said no. I called the attorney general's office, asked to speak to him
or to someone who could speak for him. Asked him to send a
representative to Little Rock. They sent a representative to Little
Rock. I conferred with him in my office. And he just said, "Governor, we
can't do anything until we find a body." Well, that's a legal term,
doesn't mean that you have to have a dead body. But in this case, it
could have been literally true. So they wanted me to do their dirty
work, and commit political suicide, which is what it would
You said that before 1957 you actively pursued a policy of bringing blacks into the administration and the political party and so on.
Yes. Arkansas was known as the most liberal state in the South at that point in time.
Was the reaction of what happened at Little Rock in '57, did that in any way change your philosophy or ideas about integration or about . . .?
No, not about these other things. Because we continued the very same things. Now it got—
It must have had some reaction on you, what happened.
No, I don't think it did in my attitude because I tried very hard not to permit it to. After all, just because you get in a controversy with somebody—in this case it involved white and black—that doesn't mean that your good black citizens don't deserve the same consideration they always deserved, or that they shouldn't have opportunities to do well, make progress, just the same as they did before. This did affect a lot of people and it affected the Democratic Party in such a way that the very next time it came up—I guess in '60—they threw all the blacks off the state central committee. And I couldn't have kept them on if I'd tried. Because they said, "Now, we did this before for you, just a special thing. We adopted the rule to add six more members at large and then we took the people you recommended, all of whom were blacks. Now then, if they get a place on the committee they're going to earn it just like we do." You know, they come up through the ranks, official in a local area and then regional. And there were some who still survived as delegates and came to the conventions. We had black people at each Democratic convention as long as I was governor. And they were always welcome and there were no difficulties. But the party leaders, as a whole, said, "No more special consideration. They're asking for equal treatment, so equal treatment they're going to get." You know, if they can earn it and come up through the ranks and win enough votes to get the place, well and good, but we're not going to just put them on, you know, because you say so or because they're black. So it did have that effect, but it wasn't appreciable.
It didn't basically change your attitude toward blacks and hasn't?
No. I believe you can check . . . I'd like to refer you to a man if you
can find him and check with him on that. I believe he'll verify what I'm
saying. And that's Lawrence Davis, the president of
Yeah, they're quoted as saying—
. . . as my administration ended. The fact of the matter, Mr. Bates came
into the office one day with a Mr. Pierce, who was head of the Negro
Farm Bureau. The Negro . . . black . . . they don't like Negro anymore
but that's what . . . you know, they change so often you can't keep up
so if I say something that's offensive, please take it out. And I
believe Mr. Atchison or Patterson—I can't think which is the name—head
of the Negro teachers' organization. And in early 1966 they came into my
office for a conference. It had been my experience and it is yet, in
most cases, with political leaders that black people come in and sit
down and confer . . . we'd say, "Now if you decide to do so and so, we'd
be glad to consider your case. And we'll get together and we'll decide."
They didn't say anything like this. The three of them sat there and
said, "We've come to urge you to run for reelection. We pledge you
unequivocally our support." I mean, there wasn't any hesitation, there
wasn't any, "we'll consider," or if or ands or anything. That's '66. And
I said, "Well, I appreciate this, gentlemen, but I really don't think
I'm going to run anymore." And then I remember asking Mr. Bates . . .
and he's a slow, methodical fellow and he'd have . . . you know, he was
sitting over there and he'd rub his hands on his knees like that. He's
slow-spoken, calm. And I never found him nothing but reasonable. I
remember asking him a question. I said, "If I don't run
Then about a week later I made a tour of southeast Arkansas. I had so
many invitations that you couldn't run down here for one, you know, and
back and then go to another section for a while and back. And I'd try to
get them if they had affairs that the dates were flexible, to set them
in a one- or two-day period and then with one trip I'd make three or
four of these and then come back, you see. So Senator Merrill Peterson
called me from Dumas and said, "The delegation wants to meet with you
when you come through here. So if you can tell me when you're coming
through, I'll have them here at the proper time so we won't delay you
very much." I didn't ask him who it was or what it was about. I said,
"Very well, I'll be glad to meet with them." And so when I got there it
was a number of black people. There were two or three Negro black
ministers. One or two others who were not. And we went in there a
private room that Mr. Peterson gave us for a conference. So what they
wanted to show me was that Rockefeller was already organizing and they
had already been invited to a breakfast in Little Rock. You had to sign
up your name and address and that's how they were getting their mailing
list ready for the leaders, and so on. They didn't go, because they knew
this. And already through that area had come a black man on a payroll.
Good pay. Had a nice business card,