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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
A-0077, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Rita Jackson Samuels, Coordinator of the Governor's Council on Human Relations in Atlanta, GA, offers her thoughts on the changing racial dynamics of her home state. She gives the most attention to measuring the progress of African Americans in Georgia during her tenure and that of Governor Jimmy Carter. She also discusses at length the installation of a portrait of Martin Luther King in the state capitol, a move which she initiated, and describes its symbolic importance.
Rita Jackson Samuels, Coordinator of the Governor's Council on Human Relations in Atlanta, GA, describes her role in expanding the presence of African Americans in Georgia's state government.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
. . . It was located at the time I worked with them at the Community Council of the Atlanta area, which was a social and welfare planning agency. And it doesn't exist anymore. So now the Information and Referral Department was moved over to the United Appeals office, which is the same thing. United . . .
But your office, this office here, is called what now?
This office?
Yeah.
Oh, this office is the Governor's Council on Human Relations.
And you're the director?
Coordinator.
Coordinator.
Yeah.
Did Governor Carter establish that, or was it here before that?
He established that. But he didn't hire me. See, he did not hire me as
coordinator of the Governor's Council. That's why I was . . . I was
trying to tell you something about my background. I was working with the
Information and Referral system, and they wanted me . . . well, they
gave me a title as Assistant for Human Resources, to
You mean you handled the whole caseload, not just consumer complaints, but welfare and everything.
Oh, no. That's right. The whole thing.
In effect, Citizens' Complaint Bureau.
That's right. And it was just really getting to be too much for one
person, and then they brought a man in. I don't even remember his name.
Who stayed here for almost six months and then he left. They just kind
of wiped out the part . . . the little office that we created. Because
beside doing that, I had to spend a lot of time with Hamilton trying to
orientate them about certain people in the black community, you know.
Like I arranged to have Andrew Young come in the office and meet
Hamilton Jerden and meet the Governor. They really didn't know any black
people at all, and they had never really . . . because most of the
people on the Governor's staff, with the exception of a few, had worked
in the Governor's campaign, but they had never been employed, full time
employment, so they had never . . . they didn't really
Who's the chairman?
A. B. Padgett is the chairman, who is director of Community Affairs for
Trust Company of Georgia. And we needed somebody who knew something
about foundation money, because at the time we didn't know where the
money would come from for the Council. And we could
Has any effort been made to give this Council here commission status, statutory status?
Senator Warren instituted a bill during the last session that, you know, got killed in the committee.
How about appropriations? Could you get a state appropriation now?
You mean how we operate now? Well, it's very difficult. We don't have a separate budget. We still have a twelve member board, but the staff is on the Governor's personal staff. See, when I was first hired, I was paid from the Governor's budget, and then when we created the Council then they transferred my salary on the O.E.O. grant. And then when we abolished that, we kept two staff persons, Joyce Moody and myself, and we just transferred over to the Governor's salary. Now, when we have to pay for travel expenses for the board members, then it all comes out of the Governor's budget. So the Governor's office is . . .
So it's not a separate appropriation?
No.
It's all part of his operation.
How does the office function. I mean, what does it . . . what has it done so far?
Well, so far we have . . . well, we have in Georgia about forty-nine, or
possibly, I guess, forty-nine bi-racial councils. There are 159 counties
in Georgia. And we have offered technical assistance in
You don't have any enforcement powers . . . ?
Well, no. I don't know of any in Georgia that have enforcement power. Even the one in Atlanta doesn't have enforcement power. And they're talking about it now, and I understand there's a lot of opposition to that. So . . .
Primarily, then, a mediation and conciliation type of function.
Persuasion, yeah.
Is it effective?
Well, see, I can't answer that yes or no, because you have to really
understand the problems not only in Georgia, but problems on local
levels. And if, you know, if you open up communications where you never
had black and whites talking together before, then that's accomplishing
something. So, you know, I . . . that's not a yes or no answer, to a
question
Have you done an employment survey for the state government?
Well, the Governor's Council employs a consultant to conduct a survey for the Council because we didn't have adequate staff. And I'll give you a copy of it before you leave. It's right there, on the side there.
When was that completed?
It was completed . . .
December of 1972.
Yeah.
That's fairly recent.
But also the August of 1972 . . .
Oh, yes. Through August of '72.
Yes.
Has anything happened as a result of that study?
Well, no more than the Council members made some recommendations to the
Governor about some things that are being emplemented now. One was the
Council felt that most of the problems with getting minorities and
females involved in state jobs are in the state merit system. And they .
. . you know, you can not reach certain people, because they have to go
by the rule of five. They choose the top five
How many of them have submitted accepted . . .
I think at the time that the report was completed it was about fourteen.
Do you know if the rest have submitted them?
I think that the rest are working on that. Well, you know, I'm not so
impressed with Affirmative Action planning, because while you are
designing Affirmative Action plans, you might have three vacancies next
week. And, you know, unless you are committed to promoting females and
trying to bring minorities . . . and I mean to . . . you know, the law
states that you have to deal with minorities, but I'm concerned with
black people, so I need to, you know, let you know
When was that?
Oh, it must have been six months ago. It was before '74.
When did this Council start?
In October, 1971.
'71?
Umh-hmm.
As you look back on that period, is there progress?
Well, I happen to think that it is. I mean, the Governor's Council. You see, I refer to myself as the Governor's Council. And I think that I'm the reason . . . you know, it depends on what you mean about how much progress. In what areas are you talking about?
Well, I asked you what you think. Do you think there's been progress?
Oh, I . . . most definitely.
How do you measure it?
Well, I measure it by department heads being aware that they are violating the law when they don't establish an Affirmative Action program, when they don't hire . . . when they don't establish an active recruitment program. I mean, at least they know it. When I first started working in the state government, they didn't even know that they were violating the law. Some of them really didn't know that, you know. And . . . and . . . and, you know . . . Martin Luther King's portrait is in the capitol, and the capitol is 84 years old and they never had a black portrait in the capitol before. And two others will go up before the end of this year.
How important is that portrait?
Well, it's very important.
Why?
Well, it's important because when I was in the sixth grade and high
school and living in Forsyth, Georgia, which is fifty miles south from
Atlanta, I visited the state capitol in a school group, and the same
things that I saw in the capitol then, I see . . . I saw then. I mean,
there's absolutely nothing in the state capitol building, including the
employees - I'm the only black that ever had an office in the state
capitol - that blacks could relate to. And if you don't see anything
that you can relate to, you don't feel welcome, you don't feel like it's
anything that's working for the benefit of whatever problems you might
have. And I do think it's important. I think that when school groups
visit the capitol - and the schools are integrated in Georgia now, and
so you do have black and white kids coming at the same time -
So hanging this portrait and your having an office here are symbolic of two important things.
Oh, I think that it is. I really do.
Would you measure that in terms of . . . as part of the progress since 1971?
Well . . . well, now, what do you mean by 1971?
Well, since the Council was established.
It took that long to get those things accomplished. The portrait didn't go up until the first of this year, but, I mean, that was a project that had to be worked on and, you know, and . . .
When did that idea originally come? That's what I . . . that was my question. Was it your idea originally to get Martin Luther King's portrait hanging in the capitol?
Well, I just said to the Governor that I thought that Martin Luther King's portrait should go up in the capitol and I'd like for him to think about it and give me an answer. I didn't push him for any answer, and I didn't get an answer the first time I asked him about it.
When did you first mention it to him?
March of last year.
And then when did you hear . . . when did you bring it up again?
Well . . .
Or did you bring it up . . .
Well, see, I meet with the Governor in the weekly staff meetings every Monday morning. And I guess maybe two or three months passed. And he . . . I put in in the form of a memorandum, and he had not responded. And so I asked him and he said he thought he answered and I . . . I . . . you know, the memo had got lost. But he just said he'd be more than glad to do it, but that he thought it would be more important to put up more than one black portrait, that maybe we should be . . . put up more. And that it probably be best to establish a committee and have a committee make recommendations to him and then he would choose. And that was the way we did it. Which took a lot of time. It took about four months.
What was your rationale for hanging the portrait? What was your argument for it?
The state capitol was paid for with tax money and it was not just white
tax money. And that, I mean, there's nothing in the capitol that black
people relate to. Blacks don't come here to have any kind of meetings at
all. A group of blacks came here following the Attica situation in New
York, or wherever Attica happened, and it was a group of Atlanta
University students. They came up here during the session, and they
wanted to have a meeting upstairs. And when the Governor's office was
contacted, they said a group of blacks are on their way over here to
take over a room. And before they got here, all the state troopers were
here. Now, the Governor, you know, sent the troopers away, because he
just felt that they have as much right to use a meeting
Do you have black pages?
The only blacks that you see in the state capitol are the blacks that
keep up the grounds or the gardening, and the maids that you see working
in the restrooms, and the porters that you see running [errands]
And you have legislators.
Well, but you don't see legislators until during the session.
During the session, are there black pages in both the house and the senate?
Since I been working here. The first year I came there was not one.
Getting back to the portrait, though, you said a committee was appointed?
Umm-hmmm.
Just a committee consisting only of blacks?
Oh, no. We had the Secretary of State on the committee. You
Have the other two been selected?
They have been selected.
Have they been announced yet?
Yeah, they were announced when we announced Dr. King.
Who . . . ?
Lucy Laney, who is a black woman from Augusta, Georgia. Richmond County. Are you all . . . where are you all from? You're not . . . you need to tell me so that I won't just assume that you ought to know.
I'm from South Carolina.
I'm from North Carolina.
Okay. Well, Richmond County's in Augusta, Georgia. And she was responsible for the first kindergarten program, back in the 1800's in Augusta. Was really in education. And the other person is Bishop Henry MacNeill Turner, who was a very outstanding bishop in the A.M.E. Methodist Church, and he also served in the Georgia legislature in the 1800's for like . . . less than a year.
Was that during the Reconstruction period?
Yes.
How did you feel about the opposition to hanging that portrait?
I didn't even respond to it. There're some things I don't . . .
Listen to it?
. . . fluster my mind with at all. No. Why should I have listened . . . ?
Wasn't it a very important issue in the legislature?
No.
No?
Wasn't even spoken . . . the legislature didn't have anything to do with what's hanging in the state capitol. You didn't have to put it in the form of a bill. The Governor is the one who can . . . and this is under re-organization. Before re-organization, the Secretary of State had authority over what would happen to the state capitol building. And since re-organization, it was the Governor's authority to say what would happen. And I went to him and I asked him and when he told me that we could do it I didn't respond to Lester Maddox's statement, I didn't respond to anything. And I had press people come and ask me about it, and I just said, "I have no comment on it one way or another, because the portrait is going up." And it will never come down. I mean, I understand Lester Maddox made a statement and said that when he's re-elected that Martin Luther King's portrait will come down. But it will not come down. I just think that there will . . . I don't even think he was serious if he said it. I didn't hear the statement, so I'm not sure he said it.
So we've finally got the story of the portrait. We've been trying to get it for all these days . . .
Oh, have you? Well, what were you getting? What did you get? Absolutely nothing?
No, we were really . . . we'd been hearing about Maddox's comments. Finally got that too, a copy of a newspaper story on his comments about the portrait.
See, the only . . . the only . . .
Is it symbolic of something else other than just the fact that you've got black and white portraits hanging in the capitol?
Well, it's symbolic because of who it is. Martin Luther King, Jr., as far
as I'm concerned, as the president of black people on a national level,
and, see, you know, had legislators said anything about, "Well,
you know, he was not a statesman." I would have been able to
deal with that, because I disagree with that. Martin Luther King is more
responsible for the voter's rights bill than anybody else that I know
of, you know. And I think that he's also responsible . . . you see, it
was not Martin Luther King, it was Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael who
were saying were saying "Burn, baby, burn" and, you
know, really inciting riots. Not Dr. King. And I think that Dr. King
made it as comfortable for Lester Maddox to be in the capitol four years
and not lead blacks up here to stage demonstrations, because that would
not . . . you know, he was not that kind of person. You know. So I think
that . . . that he is as much responsible for the progress that we have
been able to make in Atlanta and in the state as well, among both black
and white citizens. I mean, black people are talking together and . . .
I mean, black and white people are talking together, they are doing
things together and it's . . . and as a result of that, you can see a
lot of progress in a lot of different areas, not just, you know, voter
registration, and not just voting, but there are other areas as well.
And I . . . you know, because of who he is, he is the one who should be
in the capitol. And I had no . . . I never thought for a minute that
when they turned in five names to the Governor and Martin Luther King
was one
Well, we're going to ask you the questions.
Okay. Well, I . . .
It . . . it . . . some say that it's symbolic of the changing role of the black in Georgia. In other words, that represented in many ways progress that blacks have made both in terms of social progress as well as in voting. That . . .
I agree.
Let me ask you this question. Why do you think that . . . how do you explain the fact that there are no women . . . no white women in the Georgia legislature? There are only two women in the Georgia legislature and both are black.
Well, now, I don't think that you can address questions like that to me and expect me to come up with answers.
You're a woman.
Yeah, but . . .
You're a woman and you deal with . . . and part of your role is to deal with discrimination and the role of women, and I just wondered how you . . .
But I'm really not into that a whole lot.
Okay.
I mean, . . .
Do you have any theories on it, though?
No, I just think that white women ought to be more aggressive and they ought to go ahead and run. You know, they might feel that the representatives that they have are representing them well and are really being fair. But I think that you might see some change since the Equal Rights Amendment was defeated in the upcoming election in November. You'll probably have some women running for a lot of different positions, probably. I don't know. You can . . . or think you only have one, or you had, so you don't even have her any more. But it used to be a white woman in the house. We have two black women in the house, so, you know, I don't know. You know, I'd like to say that . . . I don't know, you know. I just . . .
How do you . . . what . . . you know, what's your feel for what's going on in rural Georgia? You came from a small rural county, right? Where'd you grow up?
In Forsyth, Georgia, in Monroe County, where there's 10,000 people. And I went . . .
You grew up on a farm, or . . . ?
No, I didn't grow up on a farm. I grew up in town.
What town?
In Forsyth, Georgia. That's the metropolitan area for Monroe County.
What'd your parents do?
Well, my father worked for General Motors for a long time. He commuted for years and years. And my mother was a nurse's aid. And my grandmother farmed and did domestic work. And I have a brother who's a brick mason, and I have a sister who is a beautician, and I have another brother who's been in the Army working at the Post Office, that kind of thing.
Do you go home often?
I was at home last weekend.
All right, in visiting your home, and I presume for your job you get out around the state some too . . .
Not a whole lot.
Well, what's your feel for what's going on in rural Georgia among blacks, politically?
Well, in my hometown, we have a black deputy sheriff, we have three black
policemen, we have a black city councilman, we have a bi-racial council,
which I assisted them in establishing, that's composed of eight people -
four blacks and four whites. There are more blacks who have businesses
in Forsyth than ever in the history of Forsyth. They had a demonstration
in Forsyth about five months ago which I participated in, and was right
up on the front line and reported to the Governor on Monday morning that
I had participated in a demonstration.
What was the demonstration about?
Well, it involved a police brutality case, where a white policeman had slapped a black woman who drove up to a gas station and ordered a dollar's worth of gas, and the attendant gave her two or three dollars worth. And she refused to pay the extra money, and they called the policeman in who, you know . . . I was not there, but I understand that this is what happened. And they got in an argument and then he slapped her and locked her up and left three small children in the car. And it was like three or four hours before they realized that had happened and they wouldn't allow her to make a telephone call. And they staged a demonstration on it and they presented a list of grievances to the mayor, and the policeman was discharged and, you know, things are running smoother now. But I would like to . . . if I . . . you know, I would not mind going back home to live. There was a time when I never thought I wanted to go to Forsyth again.
When was the time . . . when did you leave . . .
Well, the time was when . . . I left in '63. I left in '63. I went to
school in South Carolina. I went to Claflin College in Orangeburg, South
Carolina. And then my father was living in Atlanta, at that time, and
when I first got out of school I came to Atlanta, and I worked at
Where . . . were you on the bridge then?
I was on the bridge.
Did you get hit?
No. But when you really think about that, I really didn't understand what I was involved in that time. I really didn't.
You understood what you were involved in in Forsyth five months ago, didn't you?
Oh, yes.
What would have happened if they'd done that same demonstration under similar circumstances in Forsyth ten years ago, twelve years ago?
Well, first of all, they . . . it just would not have happened. People
were scared, you know. I mean, I was . . . it was always something about
What has changed so much in ten years that now you're willing to go back there and live, when ten years ago you wouldn't? That's really a drastic change, isn't it?
Well, I think that I'm . . . I'm more knowledgeable about politics,
What does your husband do?
He's a general contractor.
Do you . . . would you like to get into politics on a candidate type basis after you leave this job?
I've had a lot of people encourage me to, but, you know, I've been married less than three years, and I need to have a baby and I need to decide if I'm going to be a wife or . . . you really can't do both, you know. So . . .
That sounds like a very old-fashioned idea.
Well . . . well, but that's . . . you know, I'm not into Women's Lib as much as you might think I am. I'm really not. See, when your grandmama raises you, you've got a lot of old-fashioned ideas about life, and, you know, that's how I have operated on the job, just being completely honest with the Governor about how I feel about anything, you know . . .
What was his reaction after you told him that you participated in that demonstration?
Nothing. Not one way or the other. I just said, "Governor, you
know, you might get a report, so I'd just like for you to know that I
was on the front line in my home town Saturday in a
demonstration." And he knew about what had happened in Forsyth,
because I had a group of people come up here and talk to him, you know.
And he just didn't react one way or the other. Because, you see, I . . .
I feel that I am
So you are the first black in the state capitol, the first black on the Governor's staff. When you took that job, how did you feel? Did you think it was going to work out this way?
I thought it could work out this way, but I thought I had to be, and I
was, I was very careful about how I worked . . . I mean, how I started
off working. The timing is so important in politics, and, I mean, the
Governor will do some things because it's politically expedient for him
to do it. The Governor will do some things because he just feels that
he'd like to do it. And there're other times, if the timing is wrong,
the Governor will not respond at all. And so, you know, I did not
participate in community meetings, you know. I was not completely honest
with the community about the kind of influence that I may have had in
the beginning, because I didn't want anybody to say, "Well, you
know, if you recommend me for this board appointment, I will get
it." You know. And I didn't try to come up here and represent
the black community. No one black can do that, no two blacks can do
that, you know. I'm just one black person. I was very concerned about
getting other blacks on the Governor's staff, and we got a black to work
in the secretarial pool downstairs. There were other vacancies in the
Governor's office where I recommended that they look at some blacks. You
know, I just made it very clear to the Governor that I
How were you received by the rest of the executive office staff? On the staff meetings on Monday mornings?
Well, this probably will seem like a very, very conceited answer, but I think that all of them just loved me to death, for a lot of different reasons. They got to meet Hank Aaron because of me the other day, and they got to take pictures with him because of me the other day, and they got to shake Andy Young's hand because I know him. And whenever he's here he stops by to see me. And they got to go to Claudine's premier last week, the movie Claudine. And they got to meet Dianna Carroll and Gladys Knight and the Pips and people like that because of me. So, I mean, you know. They . . . you really have to ask them, you know. Because I don't know. But they treat me fine. They cooperate with me on whatever I'm working on. We're getting ready to organize a salute to Hank Aaron, and, you know, I don't go out on the outside and get other staff. There will be some staff in this office who will assist me in doing that. The Governor's press secretary assisted me on Dr. King's portrait, so, you know.
Do you . . . have you noticed any change in the Governor himself in his
attitude and sensitivity toward black people and the problems of
Well, I have, but I don't think that it's because of me. I just think that it's because he's had more experience dealing with black people than he ever had before.
Where are these changes?
Well, I think the Governor understands that, you know, blacks have not always felt welcome to come to the capitol and accomplish something. And whenever we have visitors day in the Governor's office and we have that once a month, that anybody can come in and see the Governor without an appointment, and I try to encourage blacks to come, because, you know, it means something for a black person to be able to go back and say to other blacks, "I met the Governor today", you know. And I think he realizes that, and he might, you know, he might be more sympathetic to some things that may have seemed like absolutely nothing, just a matter of policy.
Any regrets?
About the job? Oh, no.
About being the first?
Oh, no. I guess, you know . . . I just happen to think that you really
have to be a very strong person to work in a job like this one, and
because it is a public position and there are blacks who don't
understand . . . I don't want to say that . . . well, there are blacks
who don't understand about the problem of timing, as I mentioned to you,
in politics. There are some things you just can not do, and I think that
by working on this job I have been able to be more patient about things.
You know. But it's just . . . you know, I thought
You say there's 48 blacks on the 22 boards and commissions?
No, no, no. It's 48 different boards that blacks serve on.
Of the 122, Jack, 48 boards and commissions have blacks.
That's right. I got some information . . . I didn't know whether you all
wanted to take a look now. (Interruption in recording.)
He will have to deal with what's been done.
Oh, yeah. That's right. Governor Carter did it.
So that can't be undone?
No, it cannot be undone. We had one senator (?) for the Governor took office, and we have eight now. You know. So, I mean, if one governor can come in in four years and get one, and one governor can come in in four years and make sure that you have . . . you know, I think five was what we said, but we do have eight. You know, I just . . . I just think that . . . that those are the kind of things that a governor has to do in order to make it better under the next governor and under the next governor. And you don't see the kind of progress as quickly as most blacks would like to see it, including myself, but at least I understand more from working on this job how certain things take place. And I do think that we are making progress, and I also think that we will continue to make progress, even if Lester Maddox is elected again.
Do you think he will be?
Haven't even thought about it, hardly.
Did you have any other questions?
Nope.
Anything else you wanted to ask?
Have we got time? (Interruption in recording.)
I'm just thinking back to 1962 (?) we appointed the first black woman to
the governor's staff in Michigan as the assistant . . . (Interruption in recording.)
Well, I'm just going to see what's going to happen with Jimmy Carter.
Wherever he goes, I would like to be his assistant. So, I mean . . . I'm
not ready for . . . because I respect him so much. I don't think that a
lot of people . . . (Interruption in recording.) (Interruption in recording.) (Interruption in recording.)
END OF INTERVIEW