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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
A-0134, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Floyd McKissick discusses a lifetime of politics and activism in this interview. McKissick was a devoted civil rights activist before and after World War II, integrating the law school of the University of North Carolina and aiding students in sit-ins in the 1960s. In 1966, he took over leadership of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), one of the nation's most prominent civil rights organizations. Shortly thereafter, he left CORE to contribute to the development of Soul City, a town in rural North Carolina intended to showcase the economic potential of a new kind of community. In this 1973 interview, McKissick reflects on the civil rights movement and its legacies. McKissick held that African American leaders needed to find pragmatic solutions for solidifying the gains won with legal battles and public protests in the 1960s. One such solution, he believed, was to demonstrate the economic and social viability of a town free from racism: Soul City. In addition to considering broad themes of the civil rights movement and Soul City, McKissick moves through the interviewer's list of questions about race and rights, answering queries about busing, averring his support for the legacy of former governor Terry Sanford, and offering one civil rights leader's evaluation of the movement and hopes for the future of economic and racial justice.
Civil rights activist Floyd McKissick evaluates the legacies of the civil rights movement and looks toward its next phase in the 1970s.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I've been active in North Carolina politics I think since I was about sixteen or seventeen, in high school. And shortly after high school. I've just been involved in politics…I was in the NAACP when I was twelve.
You graduated from high school when?
In 1939, in Asheville, North Carolina. And from that time on, I was in
politics in Asheville, North Carolina and wherever I went. I went to
school in Atlanta…Morehouse College and I was in politics
there and I was in the Progressive Party, the Wallace party and I worked
actively there and I think probably the first real politicalization came
when the city council of Asheville, North Carolina refused to permit
Paul Robeson to speak at the city auditorium, and this small delegation
of an integrated group went to the meeting of the city council in
Asheville to ask them to change the policy to permit Paul Robeson to
speak. And I ended up that…I just went there as one of the
group, but I ended up being the spokesman, practically the
When was that?
Oh, check your records…this is the same thing I was telling you earlier…check your records during the Progressive campaign at that time…
This was during the Wallace campaign?
Henry Wallace.
Henry Wallace, yeah.
Yes, be sure, this is Henry Wallace in this campaign.
Were you the first black student at the University of North Carolina law school?
Yes.
And you brought suit to gain admittance, right?
Right.
And this was what?…you entered in…?
I entered in 1951.
You mentioned Frank Porter Graham's campaign for the Senate and you had a role in that. How would you describe that campaign?
Well, I think that Frank Porter Graham had a massive appeal as an
educator. He was a very progressive man. At that time, it
was…how you used terms and labels was much different from
now. A great effort in the campaign was not to bill him as a liberal. It
would have been better, and I think possibly because he was a natural,
very warm human who held compassion for people
You mentioned Key's book. Key refers to North Carolina as a
progressive tradition, being open in ideas and advanced from the rest of
the South in attitudes toward blacks and generally just being far more
progressive. Now, since Key's book, you not only had
Graham's defeat, you had the defeat of the two North Carolina
congressmen who refused to signtthe Southern Manifesto in 1956, you had
the victory last year of George Wallace in the presidential primary over
Terry Sanford and you had the victory of Jesse Helms for the U.S.
Senate. My question is this: was Key right and if he was right, has
there been change since in so far as there is
Well, I think that Key was correct. I think that there have been some
changes and the changes on the national level also affect your
state-wide changes. You could also add to the defeat of Galifinakis by
Jesse Helms to the list of changes and attitudes, but then one must look
to the adequacy of a campaign, how it was financed, the organizers, the
sentiment of the people, the times. Then, you've got to look
at the backdrop of the Civil Rights movement and its major effect upon
the United States was a very positive one, but the nation moves into
fads and it was "do-good to the black people" during
the sixties, 61 and '62 and then it fades. And then the riots
came about and then you had that reverse trend. The urban riots created
a "this is as far as we are going" attitude and
"we will stop here." And that was in all of the major
cities and then that attitude, the rebellions and the riots came to
smaller communities and southern communities after it had left the big
urban society. Which means that you've got a delay in a
period of time and I think that all of these and the war, the Vietnam
crisis at that time, all of these have an effect or influence candidates
to posture their positions on the attitudes and sentiments of the
people. On the other hand, you could point to say, the recent election
of Jim Holshouser, who was a liberal Republican as opposed to a very
conservative
…1948 to 1973 in terms of the Civil Rights movement in North Carolina. If you were to think of gains made in that time, there may be lots of moving forward and backwards, but does it separate into periods? Or is it pretty much a steady progression? Is there anyway to look at that twenty-five year period?
And is North Carolina just part of the overall South?
Well, I think that certainly, it would be part of the overall South, but
I think that North Carolina…one way you
Did the biggest gains occur in the last ten years, say, compared to the
fifteen years before that? Are is there any way to
I think that most black people automatically distinguish, even by
organizations, I think we start in 1960…the 1954 Supreme
Court decision, I say you follow those suits, the pattern of those suits
and how they were brought…and then you come to the second
Supreme Court decision in Brown vs. the Board of
Education and then you've got to take into concern the
freedom rides that occurred in the forties. Then, you've got
to take into consideration the sit-in movements of the sixties, which in
my mind, was the real force in American society to really change
American society. The demonstrations which went to bring about a
substantial change in North Carolina in the line of public
accomendations and moving up. So, I think that you could divide that
movement on the basis of…I think if I were to divide it
generally now, I'd divide it as the legal movement as one, in
which you sought to get your rights and this legal movement bogged down.
Then you had the protest movements that moved it forward.
Beginning with the sit-ins?
Well, I don't say beginning with the sit-ins, because you had
the freedom riders prior to the sit-ins. You had two sets of freedom
riders. The first one I was part of, I think, and another guy at
Asheville by the name of Joe Feldman
You were a major participant in the Meridith march, what followed after James Meridith got shot in the continuing march in Mississippi.
Yeah. I led that, I organized that march. We issued the call to bring all the organizations together to continue the march at the spot where he fell.
Then, there was that split with
Soul City was an idea before themovement. Soul City actually started
after World War II, in my mind. And it was first talked about when we
saw the use of the Marshall Plan, and all like that. See,
I've always been in real estate and I've always
been a businessman. I was projected into national prominence as a civil
rights leader, not as one who had a vitae in business. Because, at that
time, this is what people wanted to know…who was speaking,
who
But do you see Soul City as an extension of the civil rights movement? With legal fight and protest and economic development?
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Is that the way you see it, legal, then protest, then economic development?
Yeah.
Is there a physical part here too, to the movement? One part is more physical and more violent than another part?
Oh yeah, protest. You would subdivide your protest, most likely.
How significant do you see the Voting Rights Act? In its effect on southern politics?
Well, I think it has had profound effect. I think that we've got more elective black officials now than we've ever had.
How about the effect on white politicians?
I think that it has changed white politicians to attempt to get those
votes. And therefore their language changes. I think it has brought
about a change, period. If a man has got a constituency of 50% black and
50% white and he's got to appeal to both of them, why
Do you think it has resulted also in a general change of attitudes, or only in political strategy? On the part of white politician that is?
It would depend on the man. I think it has done some of both, but I think it would really depend on the man. But I think that most of them now realize that with the passage of the Civil Rights Act, many of them…the Civil Rights Act freed a lot of white people too, to be able to openly say things they always wanted to say, or live by their philosophical beliefs. I think it freed a lot of white people, too.
Could I go back to the way you see the last twenty-five years again? The legal movement and the protest. Where's the protest, where did that go? What new period followed that one? Jack mentioned economic development. Is that what you see? After the protest movement?
I don't get what you're trying to…
Well, it seems to me that the movement went through a physical or even a kind of violent period and then that ended. Or apparently ended. Now, something new has started.
No, it's not new.
It's not new.
No, it's not.
Well, what is it?
I mean, I asked you whether you had read my book. It's not new. The whole struggle is for the black man to become equal to the other man and each organizational movement might have used a different name. Some said, "Equality", some said, "Liberation," some said, "Freedom." But hell, a man is just like any other man and he's expressing the same sort mission that Voltaire, Rousseau and anybody else ever expressed. In other words, "Get your foot off of my back." Period. "And if by the time you push it one direction and the foot is still on there and you get two inches above you, you still can't stand up." So, you push it a little more and if you don't push to the left, you push to the right. It hasn't changed. You push until you get it off you. And you use the strategies that are available to do it.
What was the effect of the assassination of Dr. King?
I think that there were numerous effects. It changed the organization in
one sense. I think that Dr. King was by far, he was the leader, and
I'm saying that all of them were very good, I think that
King's presence sort of overshadowed the leadership parade. I
think it had a profound effect on the movement, I think it changed the
character of the movement. Yet, I would think that the movement was
changing in that direction even when King was alive. You move as far as
you can with what you've got. That's the way a
movement goes. Then, if you reach a concrete barrier, then
you've either got to find a method to go around the walls or
go over the walls. And the
What has been the effect of what has commonly been referred to as the "Republican southern strategy", as far as blacks in the South are concerned? The slowing down of enforcement, not only slowing down, but in some cases, a discontinuement of enforcing title 4 of the Civil Rights Act?
I don't think that strategy might be…
I might throw in here the idea of "benign neglect."
Benign neglect, yeah. I think that strategy has been in operation in
certain places, but I think where there is strong leadership again in a
black community, they could overcome the benign neglect concept. I also
think it becomes necessary to carry on the struggle for intergration to
all parts of the system, to be able to really be in functionary roles to
puncture the benign neglect theory. I think that with the rise of a
number of black elected officials throughout the south, that
we've had…while we have not made the great amount
of progress that we seek to make and there's a whole lot that
needs to be done now…I think that the entire image and
attitude of the people has moved to a point that once the laws are on
the book, and once that we know how to use the laws, then you have a
method to deal with people that attempt to prevent you from using the
laws to
Some people like to use a sort of popular concept, saying that the civil rights movement is dead.
Yeah, I've read that a number of times and I think that's a misnomer. In fact, I started doing an article on that. I think that's based upon what they conceived as the objectives of blacks within a limited period of time, not as how minorities actually view themselves.
Right, that's my question. How do you perceive the movement at this point? Where is it and where is it going?
Well, now once again, if you define the term of movement, that could be wrong too. And if you define the term, "civil rights" that could be wrong. It's a question of man's attitudes. It's just like someone asked me about Soul City, the name of Soul City, saying that it implied blackness. I said, "Why?" Soul is a religious concept and it's because of the racial attitudes of outward America that make it black. But the real meaning of "soul" and where it came from, is the Christian church where people expressed themselves by shouting and giving true expression to their emotions. And the same music and beat was taken into the popular vein and they called it "soul."
Is this how you view "soul" when you speak of Soul City?
Oh yeah. We come from a religious concept. That's what it is. Period.
Which is within the movement that I have referred to, for want of a better term, as "black awareness." Soul sometimes, is projected as…
That's contemporary. That's a contemporary meaning of the word "soul" as with pop music and etc. But it was laying around a long time in a religious context. And that is its real meaning and where it really was devised.
Before Dr. King died, he wrote that the whole legal and protest struggle was just the first part of the civil rights movement. Now, the movement for blacks, at least, was for full equality. And the next part had to do with the elimination of poverty and he questioned whether or not the country was committed toward that goal, or even understood it. I wondered how you react to that?
Well…put your question again.
Well, Dr. King wrote before his death that the civil rights legislation, the legal battles was a battle for legal equality and it had more or less been won. And he viewed that as the first stage and the second stage had to do with basic economic struggle and the elminiation of poverty and its bounds on freedom, in effect. And he felt the country failed to perceive this and questioned whether or not there was any committment to it.
I think that he perceived that correctly. But it's not just
that simple. For too long, we have tended to categorize or divide
economics from politics or politics from economics, when they
So, you see a period of consolidation for the South, insofar as blacks are concerned? Entering into a period of consolidation of these gains, the opening of the doors?
Yeah, I think that would be a pretty good evaluation of it.
Can we stay with that point about the seventies, about strategies? In order to do that, don't you have to have more skills for blacks than they have now? In order to implement these kinds of strategies?
Correct, correct.
Then, the seventies will become a time when you see the teaching of skills, communication skills and other skills?
In other words, you've got to look back and face the truth.
You've got to look back and say, "Well, now, what
did we accomplish in the name of integration? Was integration a token?
We got a lot of blacks in places, but what are they really doing in
these places? How many black accounting firms do we have that are known
or nationally recognized? How many black manufacturors do we have of
automobiles? Have we really in fact, completed the battle of
integration? What has been the effect of the Civil Rights Act?"
You've got to simply add up and what the addition comes to,
you've got to admit it and then you've got to say,
"Damn it, we've got to change." How many
architect-planners do we have? How many financial planners, mechanical
engineers? How have guidance programs, etc. been sending the
kids… where have they gone? Is it not time now to recognize
that we've got enough sociologists and say, "Stop
right here. Don't we need more political scientists if we are
going to continue this struggle?" What are your resources to go
forward with and if your desire is to really get into Wall Street and
you recognize that right now, the biggest
Do you see the seventies becoming intensely pragmatic, then?
Absolutely.
As opposed to the ideological and…
That's right, absolutely.
That you might lose if you don't…
Yes, if you don't become coldly pragmatic, you might lose the things that you've gained during the sixties. Conceiveably, you didn't make the gains that you thought you were making at that time. You see what I mean.
Do you think that most black leaders are willing to make that kind of cold assessment?
No. I think a lot of them are not ready to make it. I think that a lot of them feel that it's still a matter of protest. That you point to the evils of society, but that you don't attempt to correct them. I'm solution-oriented and I made up my mind that I'd have to become solution-oriented and I made up my mind that you cannot talk about what you must own and control until you simply develop the team and the skills and you went out and you did it.
There is really no other way to achieve power?
If you think that you can take power from somebody, I think that you are whistling Dixie. And I think that if Rockefeller anointed me tomorrow, "Floyd McKissick, be Rockefeller", he wouldn't give me any power by doing it. I think that power is something that you acquire by growth, stage and skill, development of the mind and ability to use the mind successfully and the ability to deal with all facets of American society and I think that power comes by having a damn sound analytical mind, and mind that doesn't carry chips on its shoulders and the ability to have funds to solve problems with. That's just a part of it, of course.
In your own context, though, it makes it pretty damn important that Soul City succeed as a town.
Oh, absolutely.
Just as a town concept, forgetting about the black aspect of it.
That's right. Forgetting about the black aspect of it. If
Where do you stand right now? Do you think this new town concept is going to succeed?
Yeah.
What will the impact be on, say, the rest of this state and the South? Forget about the nation for a moment? Where do you see that going?
I can't give you a clear cut answer, but its total impact is
going to be to let America see that there is a solution to many of the
problems that we have. It will also let the state know that the state
has participated and supported this project. I doubt that other states
could have gotten the support that this project has gotten from the
state of North Carolina. The state of North Carolina will benefit
economically by having a project like this. A project
This really intrigues me. You take something like delivery of health services, do you see the way that you are going to set that up as kind of a model for an urban environment? Or the way you are going to deliver educational services and so on? Are you going to be doing that differently than other urban places have done?
Well, I think that we are going to be…Soul City is somewhat experimental. And we don't make rules to be different.
I mean, are you going to have the same models?
But we are flexible enough to accomplish the objectives that we seek. And
we were talking about being solution-oriented. We don't think
that what has gone on, we are debating now as to what kind of tax
structure do you want? Or the use of tax funds. Can they not include
transportation? So, all of our transportation could be free. So these
are the kind of concepts that we deal with here as opposed to being in,
say, the Raleigh or Durham area, where you are just wasting time even
talking about dealing with one of those
Let me ask you one quick question. Getting back to North Carolina politics, what is your perception of the role of Terry Sanford in this state and how significant was his administration? During this twenty-five year period?
Well, I think he played a very significant role in North Carolina politics. I think that his role cannot be underestimated. You can see facts of what Terry Sanford has done in a number of ways. I knew him…
Can you give me a couple of examples?
I think the educational system. He concentrated on education and he's written a number of books, and he used education to permeate the whole political system. It just permeated the whole political system. To be fully aware of education. And you look at where North Carolina schools were when he came in and when he went out. See, he was a gifted man and he could meet and associate with anybody. He took strong stands when it was time for him to take strong stands. He took them and he made the movement. He was never a coward. If he told you he was going to do something, he did it. If he wasn't going to do something, he didn't do it. If you know him personally…he has rendered some assistance on this project, for example. Duke works with us in some ways on the Soul City project.
I think you said that he rasied the level of consciousness about
education. Do you think that is one of the factors that resulted
Well, Terry Sanford, used, while he was governor, he became the teacher for North Carolina, in a sub-conscious way. He changed so durned many people's attitudes. In education, he became the teacher of attitudes in the state of North Carolina. He brought people together by his public statements and his remarks. I don't know whether many people realize just how effectively he could build attitudes so rapidly in this state by virute of his committment to education. And so many people…well, I'd say that when you talk about education, I think that he would have pretty near 98% of the people with him, that quoted him on educational issues and that same support would go in other areas whenever he needed it. When you say that it had an effect upon North Carolina, it has been a profound effect, even in the civil rights issue while the struggle was going on. We used to meet with him, have breakfast with him at the Mansion. He called me in and said, "Now, look, I'm not opposed to the demonstrations. I just don't want violence. You demonstrate all you want, just recognize your limits." I said, "Well, we are going to demonstrate." He said, "Well, I'm going to set up a Good Neighbor Council in this state." That was one of his first acts and Capus Waynick, I think, was the director of the Good Neighbor Council, from High Point, used to be his visible representative.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
He took a personal hand in seeing that the Good Neighbor Council got off the board, it was not a…it was called Good Neighbor Council because that was probably the best name that it could be called in the state of North Carolina at that time without being a radical. But it was serving as a civil rights banner and then it also served to bring, I think at one time we were in Goldsboro and the Klu Klux Klan was meeting us on the street in a head on battle and we weren't going to move out of the streets and the Klu Klux Klan wasn't going to move out of the streets and he notified the highway patrol and he told them to exercise due caution. He wouldn't let the local police move out of hand if a demonstration was occurring. I talked to him one time and I said, "A demonstration has got to run its course. The best thing to do is to let it run its course." We agreed upon that. I think that the attitude exhibited and Terry Sanford's actions would put him, certainly in my mind, as one of the very best governors that North Carolina has ever had.
If you have time, I would like to ask you about your perception of busing. In particular, the black perception of busing.
I've got to run to Charlotte and they tell me I've
got about a dozen phone calls to make before I run now. I'm a
believer that just the physical bus itself can't really solve
constitutional problems. It's people that have to solve the
problems and busing is overemphasizing a mechanical method to achieve a
social goal. And in some instances, busing is desirable, in other
instances, busing
…it might not be 100% free of racism…, but I bet you that if we can get in there, it will be 70% free of racism. Because I think that we are automatically running those people out who believe in that concept and those who don't believe in it aren't going to be around anyway.
How important in your mind, is Soul City as a model for the rest of the South?
I think that it's about the only thing that is really positive
going at this time. Of those projects that are going. I think that other
people have got good projects that are going to serve a purpose, but I
think because of the "big dream" as people say of it,
and what it embraces in so many different areas of concern, that it is
basically the civil rights movement, if you want to use that and
I'll let you use that term to make it simple, it is the
movement. And when
I said, if this pattern can be set up right it can create so durn many
opportunities, it can take the pressure off the larger cities. You see,
the bigger cities represent…there is always the argument of
"can you have big cities dying?" Well, the big cities
have got to live, they represent so much for us…and I think
it's the quality of how manageable can big cities be? And I
think that if you could take three million people out of certain areas
of New York City and develop a town over here, a community that allows a
person to have their upward mobility, to move forward. In other
END OF INTERVIEW