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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview A-0319, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
James Folsom served as the governor of Alabama for two terms in the 1940s, during which time he worked to change racial politics and improve the plight of black Americans. The interview begins with a review of his personal background and family history, including how his grandfather participated in politics and opposed secession. Folsom explains how he received an education by visiting the courthouse with his father and by working as a merchant seaman. He also worked for the Works Progress Administration during the Depression before campaigning twice for Congress and joining the race for governor in 1942. As governor, he opposed the poll tax, appealed for reapportionment of state funding, and avoided campaign slogans and gimmicks based on racist rhetoric. Instead, he used political folk-style music in campaigning. Folsom voted for Henry Wallace at the Democratic National Convention in 1948 and later supported Harry Truman. He describes how he developed liberal ideas on race and why he believed that race was no longer a viable political issue in the South. Because of his stand on such issues as reapportionment, the state legislature opposed him while he was governor, as did many Alabama newspapers. The interview ends with his reasons for supporting McGovern in the 1972 election and his views on the current political scene.
James Folsom served as the governor of Alabama for two terms in the 1940s, during which time he worked to change racial politics and improve the plight of black Americans. As governor, he opposed the poll tax, appealed for reapportionment of state funding, and avoided campaign slogans and gimmicks based on racist rhetoric. He describes how he developed liberal ideas on race and why he believed that race was no longer a viable political issue in the South.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
We thought that we might begin by getting you to talk some about your background and what you remember and what you have been told about where your people came from, and about growing up in south Alabama.
Well, of course, my Folsom people, they originally landed in Boston. My Folsom forebearer and his wife and his wife's family, along with several families, left Hingham, England . . . I guess a port near Hingham, over some difference in the church. They got stood up in the church and they left in 1638 and landed in Boston the same year. They are pretty well scattered over New England, they are pretty dominant in New Hampshire now. His wife's name . . . I forget their name, but it is a very prominent one in New England. His wife's name . . . from 1638, there would be a lot of hand-down from now, you see.
How did your family come South?
I imagine . . . the Folsom family history is full of Revolutionary Folsoms in there, and I imagine that there was a lot of them that came down and had land granted to them on account of their war service and so forth. And my great-grandaddy, he come to Georgia. He was in the Revolutionary War, a veteran. He came after the war and then his family spread on out . . . He had a brother, I think, that settled somewhere else. But they started scattering out from New Hampshire and Massachusetts a long time before the Revolution.
Well, how did you all get settled around Elba, Alabama?
Well, you see, Georgia was a state and the state of Georgia extended to
the Mississippi River. And then they set up the Mississippi Territory
and there was a big fuss about that. The Yazoo Fraud, they called it. My
great-granddaddy operated a ferry boat over there between Alabama and
Georgia, as I understand it, right across from Abbeville, Alabama. And
he raised three boys. One was named Thomas Jefferson Folsom, the other
one was named David Something Folsom and the other was named Elisha
Folsom. That's who I'm named after. I am named after my granddaddy,
Elisha Folsom. But there were three of them and their daddy had run off
with one of the Indian maids, as I understand it, to Oklahoma, when they
shipped them to Oklahoma. I don't know about that, I know that the
Oklahoma Indians in about 1914, I believe it was, or '15. Before my
first grade . . . it was when a Packard automobile was the automobile. Now, you don't remember that far back. But back in
1915, '16, '17, the automobile. There just wasn't no
such thing as a Cadillac, we never heard of one. And the first time that
I remember any of them coming to Alabama was with a group of Indians who
had three Packard automobiles and they stopped in front of the house. Pa
was in the courthouse. And of course, being Indians, part-Indians, I
guess that they felt it was best to walk over to the courthouse rather
than to ride. And they stopped in front of the house and I got to know
them all. I mean, I got to play with them while . . . strange to me
though, they were Indians. They went on to the courthouse and then come
on back and I imagine that they were going over to the old homeplace.
When Indians come back there, they like to do that. They came from
around Macon, Georgia, originally. He commanded a company of Cherokee
Indians during the Civil War. I mean, during the War of 1812. I don't
know whether he was a Revolutionary
Your father was a tax collector for several years, wasn't he?
Yeah. Three times. County Commissioner one terms or two terms, I don't know which, and his brother was sheriff. My Pa was deputy sheriff. And my granddaddy on the other side, I know more about him than I do about my Folsom people. His name was Dunavent. I thought that it was Irish, but it's not. It's bound to be Dutch. He got into some of the mix-ups whenever the Spanish had charge of the Dutch. I don't know, but he got to America and he was in the first class of William and Mary. He and his grandsons were in on Benedict Arnold's courtmartial. I don't know what position they played, but they served on the courtmartial. I don't know what they did, but that's . . . then my granddaddy come to Alabama and he is descended from that bunch. That's how I got to be in Alabama and got to be governor of Alabama.
I'd like to hear about your growing up in Elba, about your mother and father and how you decided to run for political office and what influenced you to do that and how you first began to think that you might do that when you were growing up.
Well, going from school to the house was right by the the office, we
walked right across the square and right by my Pa's office. And I would
go to Papa's office before I ever started to school. It was a matter of
necessity, I guess. My mama was having a baby, my younger sister and she
had a hard time with her for five or six months, seven months,
something
Now, you went for several years . . . you sailed out from Mobile, you took a trip for about three or four years. You were about seventeen or eighteen years old and . . .
Another thing I want to say about that disabled . . . about my Pa. For just as long as I can remember, politicians from all the county . . . you see, Pa moved to the county seat when I was one year old and politicians from all over the county would come there and spend the night. And they would sit up by the fire and talk politics and spit tobacco juice and I would sit right there. Well, I went to sleep every night as a young'un right there. But, I did it. I don't know why I did it, but I did. And I've got a boy that's like that. He's here in the office now. He was acting just like I was when I was a boy. Well, he is working . . . going to the University in Birmingham and working for Senator Sparkman and now he has shifted over and is working for Jim Allen, in the School of Education and working in the Senator's office at the same time.
Well, what did you think about going to school? Did you like to go to school?
Oh yeah, yes. I enjoyed it. I wasn't a brilliant scholar.
That's right.
Well, we had a major flood in my hometown of Elba and it washed the town
away, the banks went broke and just left Mama with the farm, no other
assets. And I just never did go back to school. Papa had an old friend
down at Mobile and I went down there and he knew the steamship line down
there and got me a job . . . me and another boy there in town, he got us
a job on the ship sailing out of New Orleans, this company that he was
agent for. They called it the Dixie Steamship Line and we went to Italy,
Naples and Leghorn and a lot of other places and I liked it. And I just
kept on going until the Hoover Depression was over. And when it was
over, I came home and began to look around and try to locate myself a
job. They were just starting this relief program and I got, I just went
up and asked them in Montgomery. I went to the State Manager . . . the
State Work Relief Director, they called him. I looked at that and said,
"Well, now, he's the State Director, he's the head man. I will just go
see the damn head man." He had just appointed a man in my county as
county director and incidentally, the second man he appointed was in
this county. My county was the first county on account of it being a
flood county and the second county was this county right here, Cullman
County, which I didn't know at that time. And I went up and told him
that I wanted a job. He asked me if I knew anything
How did that happen? You had been working on these government jobs, how did you get up to Washington?
Well, I was pretty independent about my work, I made a pretty good
record, and they knew it. And they were reorganizing it into the Farm
Security Administration and turned it over to another group. And the
other group wanted their crowd, you see, and I saw that they were going
to leave me out. So, I just went up to Washington and when they were
setting up the WPA up there . . . that's when they were organizing the
WPA nationwide, the Works Projects Administration they called it, with
rural rehabilitation and everything down there. And they split it all up
and made one the Farm Security Administration and the other the Works
Projects Administration. So, I just went up to Washington and got a
letter of endorsement from the congressman and went up there and told
them I was a candidate for a director's job. I just told the head man
that was in charge of the whole business in the United
How long did you stay in Washington?
Long enough to get fired.
How was it that you got fired?
I was going to night school, taking public speaking at George Washington University. I went to school and worked in September and got fired in January. But it really was a changeover. Did you ever hear of a fellow named Eisenhower? He was working under General MacArthur, who was going to the Philippines. A fellow, Daniel C. Noce, he was an engineering officer in the army, he was a major then. He had charge of all the landings in World War II over in France. He had charge of the whole business. He was just a major then and he come over and took my boss's seat. My boss was ex-city manager from St. Petersburg, Florida, I believe . . . Tampa, Florida, or somewhere. Ex-city manager, I believe. And they wanted to put military men in. And then they sent five first lieutenants over there and they were all army folks and one of them took my place. And they had me out a job and I came home and qualified for Congress. I didn't have nothing else to do.
Well, you had been planning . . . was that the reason that you had been taking your public speaking course, as political development?
Yeah, I had taken it in my previous college courses and that was the
reason, yeah. I had planned to go right on through and get a degree in
law, more or less in law, down at George Washington University. That's
what I had planned to do. General Eisehower got transferred to the
Philippines and
What do you remember about that first race for Congress? Who was your opponent in that race?
A fellow by the name of Stegall, head of the Banking and Currency Committee. He was my congressman, you see, I had come from down there and . . .
He was the one who had given you the letter?
Yeah. No, not then. Let's see . . . did he? No, he didn't. They weren't even up there, it was in recess, not in session. Hugo Black refused to give me a letter. He had already recommended somebody from that county. I know that he recommended my brother for some job and he didn't want to do it for two in the family. But Senator Bankhead did and the congressman from Mobile did. And the congressman from Mobile had just been elected, he was new and he gave me the letter. That was it. My congressman just wasn't there, that's the reason that I didn't get a letter from him.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
. . . he's the one that wrote the Deposit Insurance Law, you see that in every bank. The bank deposits are insured, in yours and mine.
Well, did you think that you could beat him in the election?
Hell, I didn't know. He was old, sixty or fifty-five years old. I thought
that was old then. I thought that he was an old man and he could be
beat. That was my opinion. I was twenty-six, you know. I said that I
was
And then you ran again two years later, is that right?
Yeah, but I was living in north Alabama then. I just put my name on the ballot because I had run before and I knew that somebody else was going to run and I decided that if they were going to give it away, they might as well give it to me. I didn't put much effort into it the second time.
You were selling insurance at this time, in north Alabama?
Yeah, I was organizing an insurance business up here in north Alabama.
Had a little insurance company in my hometown and unfortunately, all the
stockholders banded together, the majority of them, and controlled the
interests and sold it to an outside company later on. Finally, I was
supposed to see my little interest in it. I didn't have much interest in
the thing, but my brother-in-law was one of the seven original
stockholders in it and he is the one that got me organizing in north
Alabama and that's the way I got up here. Ordinarily, it is a hard task,
but it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It let me learn the
ways and means of north Alabama, the problems and how they had been left
out. North of Birmingham, they had been left out of roads, left out on
schools and left out on everything. They had been left out on
reapportionment. Half the population in Alabama was north of Birmingham,
north of First Ave., half of the population is north of the center of
Birmingham. But, there was one senator north of Birmingham, one county
senator that could succeed himself. All the rest of those little old
counties up there didn't have any legislature votes. After I was up
here, I could see the injustice of it. They weren't getting any roads in
there and there was a reason, they didn't have any representation.
That's the reason that I ran for governor,
That was in 1942, when you first ran.
And that speech turned that, and the final case decided in Alabama . . . it started in 1942, and was decided in every state in the union except Alabama, and Alabama was the last one, which was with the last Novemeber election, and I reckon that the court has issued the final decree on it. But it was started in 1942 and ended in 1974. That's how long it took. Now, that's how long it is going to take on . . . I hope not, but I am afraid that it is going to take about that long on . . . a man practicing law in the legislature and practicing law in the courtroom, too, that's a plain conflict, you see. And of course, I've been onto that issue all along. There's an organization that's been started recently called Common Cause. They've adopted my position on that. Have you ever heard of Common Cause?
Yes sir.
Have you read the book?
Yes. I've also read one of your speeches where you've talked about that being a conflict of interests that would always be there with a lawyer in the courtroom and . . .
Now, another thing that was related to that was the poll tax and you fought for a long time to do away with the poll tax in Alabama and that took a long time.
That was a very independent position in Alabama at that time. How did you come by that?
Well, that was the Congress advocating those things back in 1947. You
know my position. In other words, everybody's a Communist from 1917
until we recognized Russia, started dealing with Russia and China, why
everybody
Now, in the 1942 campaign, you didn't use the band, the hillbilly band, the Strawberry Pickers that you later used. Is that right? You first used the band in the '46 campaign for governor.
I used in '46, I used it in '54 and I used it in the '62 campaign.
Did you get that idea . . .
I haven't really put on a campaign since '62. That campaign, I got poisoned and blind in this eye right here, had a busted blood vessel in my head. And that stayed there for two and a half years.
How did all of that happen?
Well, I was on television and it happened. You tell me, and I'll buy you a big ice cream.
That's my favorite.
It busted a blood vessel in my head and it stayed bleeding there for two
and a half years and they corrected that. But all that put a strain
on
Another thing that you were well known for was the suds bucket. Where did you get that idea?
Well, I just wanted to change what you are seeing come about over the
South, representative change. And I got a mop and suds bucket to
represent the change. And you used to use it to scour the kitchen, I
remember it myself, you've probably read about it, I used to help scour
it. You scoured it on Saturday and it just cleaned it and brought a hue
to it for Sunday's dinner and the rest of the week. You had to scour
that thing once a week. I had to have some way of financing my campaign,
I didn't have any money. My opposition was pretty well organized, two
groups of them. A group of bankers and politicians in one group and
another group of bankers and state politicians in another. I was just
sitting around talking to some people like I am to you now, and I told
one of my friends to get a band up and he got it up. And we were getting
ready to start out and I said, "Now, what I want you to do is to get me
an old corn husk mop and two old oaken buckets." He didn't listen to me
and I finally had to get off and whisper to him what I wanted them for.
He got them and put them in the car and didn't tell anybody what they
were for. We had enough money to go for one day. We had a hundred
dollars, that's what we had. I didn't know whether we would be able to
go the next day or not. I made four speeches. The opening speech on
Saturday and on Monday morning, we started out with a hundred dollars
and we spoke at Falkville up here and then other little
Now, you all are letting me talk too long on one subject, maybe we'd better move along.
No, I think that this is really interesting. In fact, I would like to hear more about your mother and how she influenced your spirit.
Who, my mama?
Yeah.
Oh, one of my regrets of my life is that she didn't live to see me be governor. I didn't realize that she was as old as she was and she come up here to help look after the house. She had a disability, a stroke and got disabled and then went home and died during that campaign.
This was the '46 campaign?
It's one of the regrets of my life that I didn't send my children
The first election that you won was to go as a delegate to the Democratic National Convention . . .
Yeah, I was off at sea then on a troop ship.
You won the election while you were gone?
Yeah, well, I was elected while I was on a troop ship running from New York to New Orleans to Puerto Rico and back . . . not Puerto Rico, but . . . yeah, it was Puerto Rico. We dropped a bunch of troops. We had a bunch of English and Australian sailors that we were going to drop off down in the West Indies. And when I got to New Orleans, I was elected and so, I got off the ship and went to the convention. And my wife died at that time. That's another one of my regrets. She had had two babies, one of them Caesarean and she got pregnant with the other one. I came home so glad to see her and everything and I guess that she was glad to see me and she got pregnant again and her blood pressure just shot right up and she didn't live any time. She died before I went to the convention.
You cast your vote for Henry Wallace in that convention, is that right?
Well, I was going along with the Roosevelt administration, more or less. I had run, they put my name on the ballot here while I was off at sea and I didn't think anything about being elected. None of the other candidates put their name on the ballot, but I wasn't scared to put mine on there. But the other fellows that were running for governor, they wouldn't put theirs on. One of them was commissioner of agriculture and one of them was lieutenant governor. And so, I thought that the thing for me to do, they were out claiming that they had it all sewed up over the state, this was 1944 and I just agreed with my crowd to put my name on the ballot and hell, they just did it. I run second. There were four statewide races being elected and I was number two of the four. The governor was on there, and me and the congressman from Mobile and Senator John Bankhead. Us four was elected.
John Bankhead was a favorite son candidate for that . . .
Yeah, he had become a favorite son, that's right. He did and I cast the
courtesy vote for him the first time. But Governor Arnall of Georgia was
Roosevelt's appointed man, floor manager, for the southeastern states.
And Alabama was one of them. Well, they kind of bypassed Governor Arnall
in some way or another. Roosevelt had gone home and then that's when
they pulled that sleight of hand and left Governor Arnall out and
attempted to leave me out, but the damn son-of-a-bitch didn't do it. I
went ahead and voted for Henry Wallace after I voted the courtesy vote
for Senator Bankhead. I voted for Henry Wallace. Now, I told President
Truman about this, too. He knew about it and he understood it. I voted
for Henry Wallace like I thought that we were supposed to. They had
pulled a sleight of hand deal there and the politicians and all got
together and maybe President Roosevelt was in on
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
. . . down in Montgomery, he just stayed right where I went. Of course,
I was busy politicking, I didn't know Hank. I just knew that he played
at little night places out in the country, dances and so forth all
around and Troy and down in there. That's what he was doing then. But
old Hank, when he died, he said that he had picked for Big Jim, but I
didn't know that he had picked in the band until he had done gone. They
told me about it. He had been picking along with various bands and in
various stands, you know, he would have his banjo. One of the last
things that he told them, told one of my best friends in Montgomery,
said, "I picked for old
My Grandpa Dunnavant was born in 1799. He married in Richmond, Virginia,
in 1823. His first wife was a Handley and they moved to Alabama later
on. The girl he married, it was published in the Richmond paper that
time, she was pretty prominent. She was a Handley and he brought them to
Alabama and she died and he had two or three boys by her, four boys . .
. no, three boys and an adopted one. Raised them all. And then they
started the Civil War and he was opposed to the Civil War. He was an
Andrew Jackson leader when Andrew Jackson first started in politics and
he stayed with him right on up. This is the way that I understand it.
And whenever Andrew Jackson began to talk about slave-holding, about
secession, well, Andrew Jackson denounced those that wanted it. He said
that he would hang them by the tree there in South Carolina, Calhoun and
such folks as that, you know. And he would have, too. And when Andrew
Jackson died, my grandpa, around 1850, they had the Compromise in 1852,
well, he didn't have but two slaves, he give them away, freed them. He
had brought them with him from Virginia and his daddy had given them to
him to get him started off. He freed his slaves and he was an
abolitionist from then on. He was against slavery. And he would speak
all over southeast Alabama against slavery from 1850, I guess, right on.
And when the ordinance of secession was put to the vote of the people or
something like that, whenever they were selecting their delegates to the
secession convention, he campaigned against secession. Spoke all over
southeast Alabama and he had some boys that were about my size. Some of
them had children. And he had to carry them around to guard him. One of
my uncles has told me about it, backing him up when he would speak in
the
You know, you yourself, Big Jim, were able to have some really
independent ideas and before the Brown decision was
even happening. I have read a speech of yours where you call for racial
understanding. It was a Christmastime speech. Would you tell us about
that and how you arrived at your ideas?
That was when I was governor?
Yes, you really were liberal on racial issues.
Well, I got that from my granddady and my mama and daddy.
And that was talked about in your family?
Well, my uncle told me about it and I had heard it. And Pa was just a
politician, but he was dead and Mama was still living. Pa died in 1919.
That abolition sentiment and then here in north Alabama, this Sandy
Mountain plateau here, Winston County was the Free State of Winston and
over here all up and down from here to Chattanooga . . . in fact, from
here to West Virginia, this old mountain territory . . . this plateau
goes from here to West Virginia and it is just a part of the Appalachian
chain. And Abraham Lincoln said time and time again, not once but many
times, that these people right in here in east Tennessee and western
North Carolina and West Virginia were the most loyal people in the
United States. Now, he said that time and time again. If he could have
gotten troops in there earlier, he had to protect the capital or he
would have gotten them in there earlier, you see . . . now, that's the
reason that West Virginia was cut off. They
Well, it's from my family and from history, too. See, I lived up here and I worked with these people and amongst them all, in the old Work Relief days and selling insurance. They are old Democrats. Most of them used to be Republican. They turned Republican after the Civil War, but they weren't real Republicans. But this plateau from West Virginia to right here were the most Democratic sections of the United States when Andrew Jackson was president. But it was the most Republican section of the United States after Lincoln . . . well, he was elected on an independent ticket the second time. He ran on a Save the Nation Ticket with his vice president from Tennessee, that was part of it. It was to save the nation, he wasn't interested in anything else.
Now, when you were governor, because of some of your beliefs about racial questions, weren't there some groups that tried to impeach you, the White Citizens Councils?
Oh, they tried everything. Why, they burned a cross right here in my front yard.
When was that, while you were governor?
No, it was last October or September. I happened to be over in Montgomery
when Maddox got beat. Well, I don't know, but something come
You know, politicians, even Hugo Black was a member of the Knights of KKK. It used to be a social thing for everyone that was interested in politics and even . . . of course, I'm very young, but just from the few things that I've read, to be a member of the Klan. You know, it was like being a church member. Could you talk to me about that? You were never a member of the Klan?
No, and I don't know that any of my family was ever a member of it.
That's very interesting, being politicians.
I don't know whether my daddy or granddaddy was ever, no, I don't think they were ever associated with the Klan. Oh, they could have been, because there were all kinds back then, you know. But I know that my daddy never was, he didn't believe in it. They just didn't run with the group. The one that endorsed the Klan's principles. And I never have. That's an old American custom, that Klan business. It's not an issue anymore. The race issue is not an issue anymore. You know why?
Why?
Out of the Alabama population, it's about twenty-four percent black.
Well, it is scattered to such an extent that you can't, if every black .
. . we'll
You know, they compare your race with that of Kolb back during the Progressive era. He was a Populist. They compare the way you both got the north and south of the state, but he got formal Republican support at one point. I was wondering if you ever got formal Republican support or how you feel that your support ran with the Republicans in the north.
I got the rank and file Republicans, both times I was elected.
What was going on there that they chose you?
Well, now, the Republican leadership was against me. That's controlled
out of the big interests in Birmingham, by the corporate interests, they
controlled the party. And naturally, they were against me. And what
influence that the leadership had, well . . . but the rank and file, I
got. I got the rank and file in the Democratic party, too. I didn't get
the leadership in the courthouse, I didn't get them. I finally had to go
in there and take it, but that's the only way I could get it. The other
folks thought that they had it sewed up. They thought that they sure had
it, way ahead in the first primary. And you remember, I led the ticket
in the
He was in Alabama, it was a long time ago.
Kolby?
It's K-O-L-B-Y.
Oh, Kolb. Reuben Kolb. K-O-L-B.
You are certainly right.
Yeah, and hell, he got elected and they took it away from him, between me and you. They took it away from him. He got the same folks as I got and they took it away from him. That's the gossip, because I've got no proof of it, but the old timers just told me. They said that there was no question that they took it away from him. And after they took that away from him, then they set about to write them a damn constitution and they wrote them a dilly, too. We've got one of the worst in the United States, here in Alabama.
How would you work with members of the Alabama legislature when you were governor. How did you work to try to get the things that you wanted done, accomplished?
Well, when I first went down there, I was willing to do anything reasonable. I wanted them to give me a little and I would give them a little. I was going to stay with my reapportionment. But after they got down there, they looked on me as just an old country bumpkin, you know, and thought that I didn't know what it was all about. And they set up a bloc and I called a special session over a school bill, the distribution of education money, and I called a special session . . .
It was the old age pension, too, the welfare.
Yeah, that and reapportionment. And then, they used that excuse to set up a bloc, that I was going to run the state. And they set up a bloc of twenty-three members that weren't going to vote for anything that I sponsored. And that was about in March or April or somewhere in there. Sure, I was young and didn't give a damn, you know and if they wanted a four-year filibuster, I had about eight fellow senators that were with me from north Alabama and we would just filibuster for four years. We got one new statewide amendment through, that was the hospital amendment. That was about the only thing that we got through other than routine legislation and local bills and so forth. They were putting in bills to take all the power out of the governor's office and all of that.
Well, did you feel, when you got through with your two terms, that you had been able to achieve, to put into law any of the proposals that you had set out to do?
Well, yeah. All of them have come to pass, some of them that I didn't pass. I didn't get my abolition of poll tax through, the court did that for me. I didn't get my one man, one vote through, the court did that for me. I didn't get reapportionment, but my friends in Tennessee had followed my campaign pretty close and they got one through with court rule up there. And one man, one vote, that went nationwide. Oh, there are things that I wished I hadn't signed that went through, too.
What were some of those, that you signed and wished you hadn't.
Oh, well, I thought of one the other day . . .
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[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
. . . I don't know any specific . . . there's one. The county used to buy the right-of-ways and they got a slow job done and I was in a hurry with the highway work. And to hurry it up, I decided to let the Highway Department buy the damn right-of-ways and get it done in a hurry. Now, they made racket out of it. They made a racket out of it before I left office, they charged too much for the highway right-of-ways and changed the right-of-ways . . . things like that. Nothing major, but a lot of minor little things that I wish to hell I hadn't signed and wouldn't sign if I had it to do over again. But every governor and every president has got that. Eisenhower told me that he had some that he had signed that he wished he could call back.
Well, I was wondering . . . in the beginning of your '46 administration, you talked about "trust-busting," or breaking down monopolies or have them pay their fair share of taxes and also with the oil companies and all. I wanted you to talk to me about that and I was also wondering if you ever knew Huey Long, if you heard him or met him and what you thought about him?
Well, I came into Louisiana in that damn ship when he was governor and I was a great admirer of his and I read his book. He was the first, I guess, to carry a hillbilly band with him . . . didn't he carry a band with him?
I think that Jimmy Davis did.
Didn't Huey have one, too? But I think they were horn bands. The Texas
man, Pappy O'Daniel was a horn and string band, too. But mine was
completely a string band, nothing professional about it, just country
boys, that's the way I done it. They call it a hillbilly band, well, I
look at the old political gatherings throughout my political life all
over the United States and . . . Abraham Lincoln speeches with that
senator in 1858, they had bands and everything like that. Political
music is just as American as apple pie. But
And you used to talk about the "got rocks" and the "big mules." Who did you mean by that? Who were you talking about?
Well, that was when I was in office, but I still talk about them. What I mean is that I was governor, drawing $6,000 a year and they took my expense account away from me, I was supposed to be the most important official in Alabama and they took it away from me and I was having to pass the bucket to make up expenses, even to go to the presidential inauguration. People that were fighting me were the banks, and the Woodward Iron Company and the Tennessee Iron Company and all the big corporations, they were fighting the hell out of me. I called them "got rocks", that's what they were. They had the rocks and I didn't have any.
Some of the big city newspapers, like Birmingham, they were fighting you, too, weren't they?
Oh, God. All of them were. All of them were fighting me. There wasn't any
messing around about it. Well, you've read it all, haven't you? It's
Now, you were a supporter of George McGovern in the last election. Why did you support him?
Well, he was a Democrat and I was head of the Democratic Party two times. That's the number one reason. He was on the ticket. I don't care who they put on there, I was supporting him, because I had headed the party. Now, whenever I get ready to not support somebody they have there, then I'll leave the party, that's the time that I leave the party. But I don't want to leave the party that I've headed twice.
You shared many of his views about political philosophy, didn't you? You agreed with him on . . .
Oh, certainly, certainly. Absolutely. Well, undoubtedly, the American
public agrees with me, Nixon got impeached and McGovern got elected
about a month later. Don't you think that the American people agreed
with me in two places, there?
Well, naturally, each congressman and senator has got agents up there in
on the giveaway. I don't say that they are in on it. I know that I would
be if I was voting for it and I was a congressman or senator, I wouldn't
have an agent, I would just take my share and have it put in a Swiss
bank and go. You understand? Now, if I was a congressman or a senator
and I was going to vote for that, just to give money away to every
undemocratic society in the world, after our people have fought as hard
as they have for democracy . . . if I was a congressman up there and
voted to give those corrupt South American countries a hundred million
dollars, whatever my percentage was, I would just have it earmarked for
a Swiss bank. And if it was to Argentina or Brazil or Peru, any of those
countries that we have been dealing with, or any of those African
nations, any of them, I would just have my share. I wouldn't have any
agent, I would just say, "Send it to my agent in Switzerland." And I
would vote for the bill, but, "I won't vote for it until I know that my
share is earmarked and I'm going to get it." And a congressman or a
senator that is not doing that is a damn idiot. You understand? And
there ain't many idiots up there. Damn
Now, I want to repeat again, if I was a congressman or a United States senator and voted to give that money away to dictatorships . . . now, I'm not talking about democratic societies, there are some in the world. I believe that Finland is and the United States is democratic. England is not, Australia is a dependency, they've got a governor-general and all that . . . of course, South America, theoretically, they are democratic, but they are not . . . France is democratic, West Germany is, I guess, self-governing. Any self-governing, I exclude them, but to give money to a dictatorship or a non-self governing nation, if I voted as a congressman to give it to them, I would want my cut set aside and any congressman up there that doesn't set it aside for his own personal benefit, he is an idiot. He ought to be put in the insane asylum, because he is destroying our nation and he isn't getting no benefit out of it himself. There is something wrong. Do you understand what I mean? Huh? Do you, lady?
Yes sir, I hear you.
END OF INTERVIEW