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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
A-0321-1, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill”
In this interview 1976 with historians Dewey W. Grantham and James B. Garner, Albert Gore, Sr.—a politician from Tennessee noted for being one of two Southern senators to refuse to sign the Southern Manifesto, a 1956 document decrying the desegregation of public spaces in America—summarizes his life leading up to his senatorial career. Beginning with his childhood in rural Tennessee, he emphasizes how the love and support from his family combined with their poverty spurred his ambition and determination. When the time came for him to leave home, however, the Great Depression prevented his parents from being able to financially support him during either college or law school, and in the interview he describes how he balanced his desire for higher education with his need for a job. He maintains that his rural upbringing and years of hard work gave him a high degree of independence that he believes served him well in politics. Shortly after completing his law degree, he attempted his first run for public office, launching a campaign for the local school board. Though he lost that attempt, the experience taught him two important lessons: chase down any votes that may be available, and never run a dirty campaign. A few years later, he used his ability to identify with the agricultural communities of Middle Tennessee to successfully campaign for the United States House of Representatives. Once in Congress, he formed relationships with Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn and other members of the Democratic leadership. Some of his most interesting stories relating to his time in office are his encounters with President Franklin D. Roosevelt. In addition, he describes his friendship with Estes Kefauver and Harry S. Truman, and contrasts his career with that of Lyndon B. Johnson.
Albert Gore, Sr., reviews the history leading up to his Senatorial career, concentrating on his rural upbringing and his early political experiences. He also reflects on his impressions of other important politicians he knew, including Franklin D. Roosevelt, Sam Rayburn, Estes Kefauver, Harry S. Truman and Lyndon B. Johnson.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
We're pleased indeed to have this opportunity to talk with you about your long career, and if it's agreeable with you, we propose to begin with your early life and your career before entering the House of Representatives early in 1939. Perhaps a second major segment of our discussions can be your career in the House of Representatives, leaving as the third major segment of our interview your distinguished Senate career. So let me suggest that we ask you to begin the interview by telling us something about your early life; perhaps particularly about the place in which you were born and reared and grew up and how the community, the county, the state, the region may have influenced your development in early life.
Well, Dr. Grantham, it's a pleasure to see you and Mr. Gardner whom I can soon have the pleasure of addressing as "Dr."
Thank you.
It has been a long while since I first viewed this earth, not very far
from the hill country where we are now. It was, was and is, a rural
community. I was not born in the community where I was reared. At age
five, we moved some miles from Jackson County into Smith County; not
very far, but some few miles. The community in which I was reared from
age five until going away to college was called Possum
Hollow—for want of a better name should I say! [laughter] [laughter] [laughter]
Well, this . . . this may have instilled some individuality, may have
been the springboard from which each climb upward whetted one's ambition
and appetite. There was but one way to go from Possum
Hollow—that was up and out! [laughter]
Well, it seems to me that what you've told us illustrates very well the
fact that you have deep roots in this locality and that you identify
yourself with this community in a broad sense, and that it's been very
meaningful to you in your life.
Well, yes, I thought of all those things. Both my grandfathers were identified with the Confederacy, and though neither had any particularly long or distinguished career the sentiment of the family of both my grandparents—the grandparents on both my . . . my maternal and paternal grandparents—was pro-Southern. I inherited that sentiment. What I mean inherited, I got it honestly from my forebears passed along from my grandparents to my father and mother and thus to me. An American, yes, of course. I loved to read everything of an historical character, and though in the early days the books were quite limited, nevertheless whatever I could lay my hands on I read, especially before children were consumed with television. So I was intensely chauvinistic and patriotic in my feelings. I don't remember that Tennessee had such a position in my emotions as the South and America. It was just not quite as pointed in my family. There were never any doubts about Tennessee and our love of the state, but it just somehow didn't quite stand out as did the feeling of the family towards the South and towards the whole country.
You had, I take it, little difficulty in reconciling your regional and national loyalties.
Uh . . . Well, yes, I think I did. I think I may have, at that [slight laughter]
I believe Cordell Hull was from this area. To what extent did his career influence you, your goals, your aspirations. I'd understood that Carthage produced a number of important politicians.
Yes, you'd be, you'd be surprised perhaps, maybe you know, but from this little town of Carthage, as you said, a great many men of national prominence have come. If you go around a few streets in Carthage you see a mansion, a great antebellum home, where a congressman, a pre-Civil War congressman lived. In the basement of this house, there are rings in the wall where slaves were chained for the night. Later, Beutore McMillin was a congressman from this district, who lived in Carthage. He became Democratic leader in the House of Representatives. He was later governor of the state and later served as ambassador to one, I guess two countries. Then of course Cordell Hull, as you've mentioned. And then I had a career thirty-two years from here in national office and some state positions prior to that. And, as a footnote to the future, my son Albert Gore Jr. is a candidate for Congress now.
When you were moving into politics, were you conscious of the tradition of Carthage and Smith County for producing these leaders? To what extent did you look to Cordell Hull's career and his success?
Well, to begin with, my father admired Cordell Hull. Around the fireside
at night, he would often speak of him. They had been boyhood,
Let me interrupt, Senator. That is, they would go down to Nashville . . . ?
Yes.
. . . with a raft of logs?
. . . a raft of logs. And then the chief mode of transportation back at that time was steamboat. Later on, of course, Cordell Hull was in Congress. My father was his supporter. Then Hull was defeated for Congress, as I recall, I believe it was 1920. This was a great disappointment to my father. I heard him speak of that. Then Hull was reelected to Congress. I remember during a recess of Congress he would come to Carthage and spend some time. He would get his mail. I was teaching school at the time, a rural school. I would, not infrequently, drive from the rural school which I taught at Pleasant Shades some twelve miles away, I'd drive to the county seat at the close of the day. By that time, Judge Hull, as everybody called him, would have finished his mail and his lunch, and now and then would be up under the trees in the courthouse, talking with the checker players and other people. I would sit nearby and listen to him, and I became greatly impressed.
Now to answer your question as to whether or not this condition of public
service had its influence on me. The answer is yes, as it has done for
more than 100 years on many other youngsters from here. At least, I knew
it was doable. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter]
You mentioned earlier, Senator, that your grandfathers on both sides were Confederate soldiers.
Well, I'm not sure about the extent of their military service and just what it was. At least they were identified in some way with the Confederacy.
. . . with a Confederate cause. And you mentioned your father's admiration for Judge Hull. I wonder if you could elaborate a bit about family influences, other family influences, in your own development—your father, mother, other members of the family, who influenced you, contributed to your development.
Well, there are several lawyers in the Gore family, and I think this was
part of my desire to become a lawyer. At least, I was very interested in
it. I would go to the county courthouse when I had an opportunity and
when a good murder trial was under—I shouldn't say
"good" trial [laughter]
It seems to me to be illuminating as far as the development of character is concerned, but how would you explain what I believe is an aspect of your career and personality. That is, your independence, willingness to take a lonely position on occasion, to be your own man. Where did this trait come from?
Well, it's a certain characteristic of my father and of my mother. I think, as I said earlier, it was stimulated by the isolated life I lived in an isolated community where every boy was pretty well on his own out in the woods and on the lomesome hills. We'd separate on top of a hill someplace, each one going his way home. A walk through the moonlight, the loneliness with the hooting of the owls, the scream of the hawks, yet one walked without fear and successfully. Maybe this is a very primitive thing, but it's a part of the installation of independence and self-reliance, but it's not peculiar to me. I think this is down through history and rather peculiar of people who live in the open and with a certain degree of solitude. They're left upon their own talents and skills to succeed and to achieve.
So in a way, that would be a reflection of or an illustration of a community-wide or area-wide characteristic.
Certainly I think, Dr. Grantham, this is more or less [laughter]
Senator, if that is the case, and I have no doubt that it is, in another respect you were very different. That is, you were able to advance educationally. You and your family were ambitious for you to obtain as much education as possible, and you succeeded in attending college, which certainly was not true of the majority of the young people growing up in Smith County. Could you comment on the ambition for education in your family and the community, and perhaps say something about your college experience.
Well, I hardly know how to begin on that one. Going to college was a
challenge, one that I accepted. I don't recall that I ever had any doubt
that I would do so, but finding the means to do so was somewhat
difficult. I can recall that I graduated from high school in 1926, and
though the Great Depression and collapse of the stock market didn't come
until 1929, as you know, nevertheless for the farm economy, the
depression had begun before 1929. Yet my family was quite affluent
insofar as food was concerned and produced just about everything at home
except salt, and pepper, and sugar and that character of commodity. We
were members of the beef club in which some fourteen, sixteen families
would be together, and each one would contribute a beef at a given
period. The beef was slaughtered and then divided into fourteen or
sixteen parts, or piles, packages, depending upon how many members of
the club there were. Then someone would be blindfolded and turn his back
and somebody would walk [laughter] [laughter] [laughter]
Anyway, in this way we had beef, and we killed our own pork, and cured our hams. My mother furnished most of the food for the family with chickens, and eggs, and cows. So we produced our eggs, and our milk, and our beef, and our pork. My brother was quite good with the rifle, and later I developed some proficiency and we added to the food for the family with squirrels and rabbits, now and then a young groundhog and what we call a white crest chicken hawk, which is marvelous food. Chicken hawk is, to me, better than turkey. And then of course, my mother canned everything, I mean everything. She was good. Her food was excellent. She made kraut, pickles. We had an ash hopper and we burned wood for a fuel in the stove, the cooking stove and the fireplaces. The ashes would go into the ash hopper, and with a portion of water lye would come from this, and this was used to make soap. There were always chickens and butter and eggs and most of the time some cream to sell for the spending money of the family.
The money my father earned went to pay off the mortgage. I don't mean to
say that, I don't mean by saying that my mother was the breadwinner,
that my father was not industrious and diligent. He
Did you find it necessary to work while you were in college or between college sessions? Could you tell us about the . . .
Oh yes, indeed. At no time did I attend college more than two consecutive
quarters. I frequently would work for a quarter, then go a quarter. Or
maybe work for two quarters and go two quarters. And not only drop out
and work but earn my meals by waiting on tables. I had one amusing
experience. I was then at the University of Tennessee. I secured a job
as a waiter in a restaurant in downtown Knoxville, on Gay Street. And
the compensation for my work was my meals. But I was lectured in the
beginning [laughter]
Senator, was college—I take it that you attended the University of Tennessee for a time, and then the State Teachers' College in Murfreesboro, from which you were graduated, I believe—was college a revelation to you? What was the impact of your college experience on your development, as you say.
Strangely enough, not as much as I had anticipated. I had been an omnivorous reader, and things were not as new as I had anticipated except in the limited science and mathematical studies. The whole field, the physical world outside of my limited experience as a youngster, seemed to open up with some very limited studies in science. Mathematics I only grasped, but I got an insight into the world of mathematics, and it's a fascinating world. I never explored it. But later on in life when I found it necessary to try to understand complicated economic matters, accounting reports and business reports, discount and cash flow, this kind of thing, I found that the limited training I had in mathematics stood me in very good stead.
I shouldn't say, but I will say, that I felt I wasted a great deal of
time in what was called educational subjects, that is,
No, it's very relevant. Do you recall any particular professor who influenced you?
Yes. A Miss Moynihan at Middle Tennessee State College was one who was
very inspirational. Another woman teacher, Miss Buchanan, at Middle
Tennessee. I think the teacher who influenced me most at the University
of Tennessee was, I believe, Dr. Massey. He taught history. I don't
recall anyone in science or mathematics because I didn't have enough of
either. I just scratched the surface in those. I majored in history and
English. There's a teacher in English whose name I can't recall right
now. I found when I went to the University that I was failing English. I
hadn't been accustomed to failing a subject and I just didn't
understand. I knew something was wrong. So I sought out the teacher, and
I wish I could recall his name. He just frankly told me that I had
You spoke of your own teaching, both before you completed college and afterward for a time. Did you look on teaching as temporary and as a means of eventually going into law and perhaps into politics, or did you consider teaching as a possible long-term career objective?
I looked upon teaching as a job, as a means of earning some money to go
back to school. My ultimate ambition was to study law. I could never get
together the money to go to law school. But, as you well know, law
required some continuity of subjects, more so than teaching. At the time
I graduated from high school, one could get a certificate to teach after
three months of college. Well, three months of college wouldn't do very
well toward passing the bar, becoming a lawyer. So actually I was, I
looked upon teaching and used teaching as a means of livelihood and
saving up to continue my education. Later on, I came to love the
profession and became county superintendent of schools in my home
county, and I enjoyed it and developed a pride in education. But while I
served as county superintendent, I then drove to Nashville at night
I wanted to ask you about your election as superintendent of education for Smith County. That was your first political campaign, I take it?
Well, my first political campaign was for county superintendent, but I
was unsuccessful. I learned quite a lesson, several lessons however. I
remember on election night there was a large crowd standing in front of
the courthouse, Carthage's. The votes were being tabulated and the
returns given. The editor of the county paper had a large blackboard in
front of the courthouse, the lights trained upon it. For various offices
as each civil district would report, why, he and his helpers would mark
the votes. So, as all the votes were in, it appeared that I was the
winner by 100 and some votes. But then they opened the absentee box, the
absentee ballot box, and I lost by 184 votes. And I learned that my
distinguished opponent who was incumbent county superintendent had
dispatched a team of loyalists to Detroit, Akron, and various places in
the North where Smith County boys were working, and they secured the
votes from enough of those that I lost the election by the absentee
ballots. [laughter]
I had another experience there.
Let me interrupt to ask you if that first political campaign occurred in 1930?
Um . . .
You were elected, I believe, in 1932. Perhaps it was 1928.
I think it was . . . no, no, it was later. I think it may have been the year before. It was in the Democratic primary in which I competed. I think it may have been, it may have been '30, but I rather think it was '31. The reason I think that, soon after this election, the incumbent superintendent and my successful opponent passed away.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
The interesting story there was, having had many political battles,
sometimes winning, sometimes losing, and several of his battles had been
characterized by bitter personality conflicts, charges back and forth.
But I made no criticism of him at all. He seemed to be grateful for
that, though I recall going to see him some months after our contest and
talked to him about a possible position as teacher. He asked me where I
would like to teach. I designated a large Democratic community in which
he had defeated me. And laughing, he said, "I'm not going to
put you there, you'd beat me next time." [laughter]
We had a pleasant relationship. Incidentally, I didn't get a school at all. I proceeded to get a job operating a peddling truck for a hardware and furniture store. But within a few months, Mr. Hufflines went to the hospital of necessity, and they discovered a malignancy. I was told that on his deathbed, he asked a group of his close friends who had loyally supported him, who had successfully opposed me, to support me.
As his successor?
So I found that when the contest to fill the vacancy after his death occurred in the county court, I was suddenly receiving support from both factions. It was quite a revelation. All this had an influence on me throughout my career. At no time did I make a personal assault in any of the political battles that I had.
I was going to ask if, in thinking back over these early campaigns, if you developed a style of campaigning that did become characteristic of your political career. And I wonder also, if in the election, it was a matter of the county court choosing a superintendent or was this a county-wide popular election?
Now this was the county court filling the vacancy. The superintenden was elected by popular vote, but I had no opposition. I think that the fact that we had, Mr. Hufflines and I, had this, for want of a better description, gentlemanly contest and that we developed no enmities therein and remained friends solidified my popular support in my home county, which stood me in good stead when later I went to Congress.
You were a very young superintendent, twenty-five, or not over twenty-five when first elected.
Yes, I was twenty-five. Yes, I guess I was, but got along all right.
That was in 1932, about the time that Franklin D. Roosevelt was nominated. I understand that you became involved in politics on a statewide basis with the Young Democrats after F.D.R.'s nomination and then in working for the Speaker's Bureau in the 30's. How did you make that move from Smith County politics into state politics?
Well, I suppose very easily. You say "how"-because those were depressed times. The need for change, the opportunity and necessity for reform seemed so imperative that I was ready to join any movement in that direction. I happened to be at the age, at the time when the Young Democratic movement started. I participated and I guess, to some extent in a limited sense, became a leader of that movement. At least I was willing to be called a leader. I attended the rallies and made some attempted speeches against Mr. Hoover, President Hoover.
As I recall, Senator, Cordell Hull, I believe at that time was in the Senate or about to enter the Senate, I think he was in the Senate, was a leader in the pre-convention campaign in behalf of Franklin D. Roosevelt. Did that fact influence your own identification with the Roosevelt campaign for the Democratic nomination?
I don't think it did. This was quite beyond me at the time, quite beyond me. It was only in the general election after Roosevelt was the nominee that I can recall becoming involved.
Edward H. Crump had taken some control in Tennessee politics by that time, at least establishing his power in Tennessee by then. Did this necessitate working with the Crump machine? What sort of relationship did you have with the Crump men, and were they that evident at that time?
Well, I had no association at all at that time, opposition or . . . but I
was never associated with him. I later opposed him, but Crump was not a
part of my experience that early. This was just in Smith County and
surrounding counties and ultimately in the fourth Congressional
district.
Well, you supported Gordon Browning in '36. I believe he was just elected.
I was his state campaign manager when he ran for the United State Senate in 1934. I believe that my activity in the Young Democratic movement and the fact that I was county superintendent at a fairly young age may have drawn his attention to me, and he invited me to become his state campaign manager.
Now, he had different relationships with the machine. Well, I suppose he was opposed essentially to the machine in '34 although supported for the governorship in '36.
Yes, I did not manage his campaign for governor in 1936. I supported him for that, but as you said, the Crump machine supported him for the governorship in 1936. I was active in his campaign, but I do not remember now why I was not his state campaign manager. But I was active and took a part in his election and became a member of his cabinet after he was elected.
Senator, before we ask you to talk some about your statewide political activities, which perhaps could be said to have begun in 1934 and certainly in 1936 and '37, could you say something about national politics in the sense of national heroes before you really became involved on a district-wide or statewide basis? I wondered, for example, if Woodrow Wilson was one of your political heroes.
Well, first I think Andrew Jackson was foremost. Woodrow Wilson, yes. Hull, yes. And in an earlier period, Jefferson.
Benton McMillin
Yes, though I never . . . only as a personality, not as a political career.
The reason for my question is my interest in knowing how you viewed Franklin Roosevelt, and how your opinion of him might have changed from your early perception of him.
Well, I viewed Roosevelt from the perspective of economic chaos, very severe, the Depression, and as an alternative to Hoover whom I had come . . . well, not to hate, that's hardly the word, but vigorously to detest as a political leader. I had no opportunity to know Roosevelt personally at that time. Television was not yet here. The candidate was not immediately in anybody's living room. True, there were radio broadcasts of the campaigns, but there was nothing, there was no particular personal tie or adulation of Roosevelt. He was an antidote to what we had. Any voice for a change was welcome.
Did you come to be a strong supporter of his administration in 1933, '34, '35, '36?
Certainly in '33 and '34, and in the beginning of his administration,
yes. I was a very enthusiastic supporter. By '36 and '37, I think I had
cooled a little in my support of Roosevelt. In the second half of the
1930's, I had this experience in my campaign for Congress that maybe
colored my attitude. At that time, the chief source of jobs in this
rural congressional district where I lived, governmental jobs, was
relief agencies—WPA, the various alphabetical organizations
that the New Deal had brought into being. And it happened that this was
a source
Would it be fair to say then when you entered Congress in 1939, your attitude toward President Roosevelt was probably in considerable contrast to that of a young Texas representative also, I think, entering Congress in 1939? His name was Lyndon B. Johnson.
Yes, I was even in my first term an independent though populist in my
leanings from the beginning. Yet, the experience I had in the primary
must have had a part. And also I think the social mores and moral values
that had been my upbringing tended me against the relief program. I
placed self-reliance ahead of those things. I was aware, of course, of
the difficulty of being a rugged individual at the time; he often was a
ragged individual. But I must say, I went to Congress strongly
supporting many of Roosevelt's programs—TVA, Social Security,
minimum wage, this [laughter]
Incidentally, I may be wrong about the date of his entering Congress. Perhaps it was a little earlier than your . . .
I believe he entered in 1937.
. . . in a special election on the . . . though perhaps it was as a result of the election of '36.
I think it was in the election of '36.
Did you support Roosevelt's labor policy before you entered Congress? Did you think well of the Wagner Act of '35, for example?
I don't recall that I had any strong feelings one way or another about that.
I ask that because of your service as Commissioner of Labor in the Browning administration. I believe you served from, in '36 and '37, or did you take office in '37?
I served in '37 and part of '38.
Could you comment on your duties and that experience?
Well, the most important duty I had was to inaugurate unemployment
compensation in the state. This was a new program, newly enacted federal
law with which the states must comply. I devoted a great deal of time to
that and on the had a great many appointments to make, new positions to
fill in this new activity. A liberal number of
There are two or three other matters, Senator, that Mr. Gardner and I would like to have you reflect on in connection with your pre-Congressional career.
Well, I'm interested in the '38 campaign. I suppose it appears that you sort of got swept in with the feud between Crump and Browning in '38, that you had been a loyal Browning supporter earlier, and that McKellar's position was used against you in that primary. Do you recall that '38 campaign? What was Browning's position with Crump? Why did he become estranged in that period from the Crump organization, which supported him in '36 and then opposed him in '38?
I don't think I'm qualified at this stage to identify the issues on which
they broke. I wish you'd correct one word you used—I wasn't
swept in, I fought my way in. [laughter]
But in their criticism against Browning, they, I suppose, criticized
anyone who had supported him too. I knew there were a number of
issues
You can find someone better qualified to handle that.
I thought as a member of the Browning administration perhaps you knew something.
Well, if I, I guess if I rake my memory I could reconstruct it, but after all, that was forty years ago. I think I'd better not attempt to review that.
What about the campaign itself, Senator? Did you have strong opposition and could you describe your opposition and your own candidacy in the campaign?
I think I had five opponents. One of them was a district judge; another
was . . . two more were what we call district attorney generals. Another
was a former state senator and a prominent lawyer. Another, then a local
politician in legislature, achieved some local fame. Large district,
eighteen counties, our campaigning was very vigorous. Personally, my
wife and I, we managed our own campaign. I think we were able to get
together for the entire campaign maybe $10,000. I hired and
persuaded, expensive really, some neighbor youngsters who, one of them
played the guitar and another a banjo in some way or another. Sweet
voices sang and I would join with them and play the fiddle. So we had a
little road show going, and we went to all the crossroad communities and
night rallies in rural schools. We were favored with good crowds
frequently. Oh, I'd have thousands, sometimes two thousand people in a
county seat town. I had a large crowd in, at homecoming in my home [laughter]
Well, it's obvious that you had an energetic, well-planned . . .
Not well planned. [laughter]
. . . campaign that proved effective, and that you yourself were the
strongest part of your campaign. Do you think issues and your
Not a great deal. It was important that I be able to discuss issues of
the day with some acceptability, not impressiveness. But at least I
spoke in a strong voice [laughter]
Senator, we're talking here about the primary, are we not?
Yes.
Did you have opposition in the general election in 1938?
I don't even remember. The Republican opposition at that time was so insignificant, if it occurred, I don't remember.
I wondered if we could move ahead just briefly to ask if you could comment on later opposition in the primaries while you were in the House, or if there was any, in the general elections? You were elected, as I recall, at least six, to six additional terms in the House.
I had opposition in only one Democratic primary, that is, opposition of any consequence. I did not have serious Republican opposition. I had opposition, but I never regarded it as being seriously challenging. Usually there was a Republican on the ticket, but it was routine.
Did you continue to use the fiddle throughout your House career, or . . . ?
Well, as I said, I had opposition only one time, and well . . .
He didn't find it necessary to resort to the fiddle! [laughter]
I really didn't use it very much after the first time.
Before we leave the pre-1939 portion of your career, Senator, I want to ask you about two other matters. One is your attendance at law school, the YMCA law school in Nashville, the work you did in law school, your admission to the bar, and your brief practice in this period. Would you comment on these matters?
As I said earlier, I was never able to make a financial ripple to attend law school in the regular daytime law college. But after I was elected county superintendent, I then enrolled in the law school at Nashville, which is fifty-two miles away, and commuted three nights a week for those three years. I enjoyed my studies. I don't think I had any outstanding grades, but to the extent that I was able to give my studies attention while also being county superintendent and doing a little trading of livestock, land and tobacco, at least I won a degree and passed the bar with decent grades.
It would be interesting perhaps to know that at the time I was attending
YMCA night law school, my wife, before our marriage, was a student in
the Vanderbilt University law school and was earning her way through
school by waiting on tables at the Andrew Jackson coffeeshop, that is,
the coffeeshop in the old Andrew Jackson Hotel, which was only a block
and a half from the YMCA law school. I found it necessary to have a cup
of coffee before the drive back to Carthage after classes from, I
believe it was, seven to ten. Pretty soon there was but one girl whose
coffee tasted just right. We took the Bar together and by the slimmest,
thinnest margin, [laughter]
Did you practice at that time after being admitted to the bar?
No. Well, actually no. I had a case or two, let's say, but then there came a campaign, Gordon Browning's campaign for the United States Senate, which I managed and then actively participated in his gubernatorial campaign. And then he invited me to become Commissioner of Labor, so I rarely ever practiced. My wife did practice for a year or more before our marriage, but she gave it up after my election to Congress because, well, it just didn't quite seem the thing to do, for her to be practicing law in Washington while I was a congressman. That's more acceptable now than it seemed then to me that it would be.
Actually, you have answered my second question, which was your courtship of Mrs. Gore, the present Mrs. Gore . . .
The only Mrs. Gore. [laughter]
The only Mrs. Gore. But I wonder if we could ask you to comment more generally on her contribution to your political career?
Well, it's perhaps more than my own. She is, has always been, keenly
astute, enormously loyal, I guess most of all, a very sensitive person;
her political judgment is excellent. She could sense trouble many times
more quickly than I. And, as adroitly, she remembers people, names,
faces, personalities excellently, better than I. Her personality was
always warmer than mine. Though I was sometimes described as
magisterial, she was never so described. Many times, she would preserve
an equation, which, left alone, I might have allowed to become cold. So,
in
When you went to Washington early in 1939, was it strange to you, did you know Washington well, and what were your early reactions as a freshman congressman?
I didn't know it at all. I'm trying to answer your questions what my
reactions were. It was all so new, so baffling. I had one anchor,
Cordell Hull, who had known me in a very slight way because sitting
under the trees I would sometimes ask a question as he talked to the
group gathered around. At any rate, he had remembered my father, and I
was from his home town, and there was an easy equation between us. I
remember going to see him soon after arriving in Washington. He gave me
this advice: stay on the floor and learn the rules. This stood me in
very good stead because by staying on the floor, I learned the
parliamentary procedures. I learned all of my four hundred and
thirty-four colleagues by name, and I learned the parliamentary rules.
Later, a knowledge of these parliamentary rules became very crucial in
some very important events when I was able to use them to my advantage,
sometimes crucially. So, I stayed on the floor, and I learned the rules
and because I did so, William B. Bankhead, who was then Speaker, and
later Sam Rayburn were, shall I say, drawn to me or I was available when
they needed someone for a chore. And I became one of Rayburn's
team—he nearly always had a team of about ten men
considerably his junior—upon which he relied while presiding
over the committee as a whole or undertaking a task when an important
bill was up. So, I gradually advanced in my tenure in the House
Can you date that growth more precisely—during the war, at a particular point, or was it a gradual development?
I'm inclined to think that it was gradual, that my social consciousness
sharpened along with a keener awareness of national problems, and the
social pressures and deprivations of the times. I learned quickly that
the problems of the nation were not identical with the problems of my
native Appalachia, that it was a bigger world, that the social mores of
which I was a part were not necessarily those of the nation as a whole,
that we were in a process of change, no longer primarily an agricultural
nation. We were steadily becoming more and more an industrial and urban
country and an urbanized society. So with the growing knowledge of the
country and of the nation and its problems, I think I grew in my support
of and my loyalty to the administration at the time.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
I think it might be helpful if we could go back to the beginning of your service in the House and perhaps if we could ask you about your service on certain committees. I note that your original committee assignments included Banking and Currency, Appropriations—I suppose those were the major committee assignments.
Yes, for four years I was on Banking and Currency. You could only be on
one major committee in the House, and this was not my choice, but it was
a major committee and I was assigned to it, along with some other
freshman congressmen, including Wilbur Mills and Mike Monroney. Monroney
later advanced to the Senate, Mills became chairman of the Ways and
Means and achieved some Fanny fame. [laughter] [laughter]
That's a good description. [laughter]
Fanny Fox, I believe.
Yes.
And I served four years on the House Banking and Currency Committee, and
there developed some knowledge of banking, insurance, finance, programs
having to do with lending, credit availability. It was an important part
of my limited education in the whole vast field of economics, taxation,
of the intracacies of fiscal policy. I was much impressed with the
learning and the philosophy of Congressman Wright Patman, who was a
senior member of that committee. As you know, he was an inveterate foe
of the federal reserve banking practices, strongly populist in his
leaning, and I learned a great deal from him and from
Four years, that's a right good course, so to speak. For four years, I was concentrating on those subjects, for this was my only committee. I then became a member of the House Appropriations Committee.
Let me interrupt to ask you whether this was your choice, to move from Banking and Currency to Appropriations?
Well, I really preferred, would have preferred to go on the House Ways and Means Committee, a committee of taxation. But a Tennessee colleague, senior to me, Jere Cooper, was already on that committee so this was foreclosed to me. So yes, this was my choice. After serving for four years on that, I wished to go to a committee that had more relevancy to my congressional district. After all, monetary policy was not a very popular subject in the fourth Congressional district. We had a lot of good, sound local banks . . . Banking and Currency did not lend itself to the interests of my district very well, whereas the Appropriations Committee, what with the TVA, with the many alphabetical programs then underway in the national administration, and with my desire to see the Cumberland River and the Caney Fork River developed, I had a better opportunity to bring that about as a member of the Appropriations Committee than I did as a member of the Banking and Currency Committee. So yes, that was my choice after four years on the Banking and Currency Committee.
During World War II, you seemed to be quite interested in price controls
and that sort of thing. I believe Bernard Baruch influenced
Well, my interest in this, I think, stemmed from my committee assignment. I was then, as I've said, on Banking and Currency and this had to do with price controls, economic controls in World War II. I could not see how we could successfully have price controls without wage controls. Plummeted into a world war, I felt it absolutely necessary that there be some rigid controls and regulations on our economy. Or else we would have rampant inflation, perhaps economic disaster. And I thought it was necessary to have overall control. Those who slapped something down on the right side would substitute and prop up on the left side or to the rear and to the front. So I had expressed some views along this line, and then as a witness before the committee, Bernard Baruch was invited. He had some generous things to say about some of the things I had said. Maybe this was policy on his part, but I was very greatly attracted to the views he expressed. I agreed with the views he expressed. He too was an advocate, far more sophisticated than I, of overall control of our economy in time of war. This led to a personal equation. We had dinner together several times and had rapport on economic views. I think that was perhaps the extent of it, but he was a sophisticated advocate of the things I believed in.
Pursuing the matter of war controls, mobilization controls, could you elaborate a bit about the kinds of things that Congress did, the kinds of issues and concerns that came before you and your colleagues that had to do with mobilization and the war effort generally?
My experiences were largely limited to the matters of, the subject matters of, within the jurisdiction of my committee. As I've said, on the Banking and Currency Committee, this led me into an active role in the economic controls. I advocated them at least a year or so before Roosevelt did. I was in the vanguard of the economic controls on our economy at that time. After going to the Appropriations Committee, I maintained my interest in economic controls, continued an active debate and advocacy, but added to my responsibilities as a member of the Appropriations Committee: the military, atomic energy, nuclear weapons, TVA, the energy and weapons side of war mobilization and the war effort. So as a result of my activity and interest I showed in the jurisdiction of these two committees, I was broadened in my knowledge and in my experience of economic matters, and developed a keen interest in tax policy, but was unable to do anything about it. As you doubtless know, the House of Representatives follows a gag rule in the consideration of a tax bill. It has been that way for many years, whether the House was under Democratic or Republican leadership. They have a closed rule. That is, a tax bill is brought out upon the recommendation of the House Ways and Means Committee. And then no amendments are permitted. Therefore, in all those years in the House feeling anxiously the desire to offer amendments, to fight for tax reform, I just never had an opportunity as a member of the House, and this brought about considerable frustration.
So you really had to wait until you got to the Senate to pursue the matter of tax reform.
Yes I did.
Could I ask you, moving beyond 1945 and the end of the
Was I . . .
Were you generally in support of the Truman administration effort to continue the OPA, for example?
I was, yes I was, yes I was.
I understand in '47 to '48 you had been one of the anti-Republican debates on fiscal policies in the House.
Yes. By then I had become anti-Republican in many respects. I had become more partisan than when I arrived.
To what do you attribute that partisanship?
Differences, sharp differences on policy and to greater knowledge of genuine, down-deep policy of the leadership of the two parties. I saw that the leadership of the Republican party talked a popular game, but their real loyalty, down deep their real dedication, was to the policies and programs in favor of the vested interests.
Senator, one thing which you might speak about briefly if you will is the legislation that you introduced during your House career and felt most attached to, hoped to get through. Could you tell us something about such measures?
Well, as you know, according to what I've said, a member of the House is
circumscribed not only in his ability to offer amendments and to achieve
legislation by his committee membership; his knowledge is not
circumscribed, but at least the facility of gaining knowledge is
I understand, Senator, and I suppose it would be fair to say that you had no overriding bill or issue that you were terribly concerned with during your House career, perhaps in contrast with Representative Hull's perennial advocacy of an income tax measure, for example.
Yes, I'd been greatly influenced by Hull's authorship of an income tax amendment and by his philosophy of taxation according to ability to pay. And then this was, as I've said, buttressed by my experiences in the economic field. I came to realize the grave social injustices in our banking policies, our tax policies, our credit policies. They're so myriad.
So that all of these experiences and impressions prepared the way for
your Senate activity in this area of tax legislation.
The first time I had an opportunity personally to meet President
Roosevelt was following my nomination to Congress before my election. I
believe it was before my election. Anyway, before I took the oath of
office, as I recall it, he came to Chattanooga to dedicate
Chickamauga [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] [laughter]
I wonder if you would comment on your relations with other important political figures in Washington early in your House career. You talked about the President, you mentioned Speaker Rayburn, and before him Speaker Bankhead. Were there other Representatives who had a great influence on you in your House career? You also mentioned Representative Patman.
Patman surely did. I think Carl Vinson of Georgia did. I didn't agree many times with Vinson, but he had a class, a style, a sense of humor, camaraderie that attracted me and attracted others. I think Jere Cooper of Tennessee had considerable influence on me. Oh, there were many who did, there were many who did. I developed very strong ties with the class of 1938—Monroney and Mills and I worked closely together on many, many things. I don't for the moment think of any national names. I was repelled by some, of course. Hamilton Fish, for instance, I came to detest, not as a personality but as the embodiment of isolationist philosophy with which I thoroughly disagreed. No, I would have to refresh my memory, I guess. I had more friends than animosities, but I developed some of both.
What about your relationships with the other members of the Tennessee delegation, including the two Senators, during the early years of your House service?
I had a very warm equation with the Tennessee delegation, with the
possible exception of Walter Chandler of Memphis. Somehow, the ice of
the Crump-Browning break-up never quite melted there. There was no
bitterness between us, it was always gentle, but I was never able to
develop the camaraderie with him that I did the other members of the
House, including Republicans. [laughter]
Later on, you and Senator Estes Kefauver were colleagues in the Senate and were often spoken of in the national press because of your eminent position in Tennessee politics. Did you early strike up a unique relationship with Representative Kefauver?
Oh yes, we had a very warm relationship.
Could you elaborate on that a bit?