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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
A-0331-1, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill”
This is the first interview in a three-part series with Herman Talmadge, who served as governor of Georgia from 1948 to 1955 before going to the United States Senate from 1957 until 1981. The son of Governor Eugene Talmadge, Herman Talmadge discusses his early career in politics and his perception of Southern politics during the mid-twentieth century. Talmadge begins the interview by reflecting on his first awareness of political issues when he helped to campaign for his father during the mid-1920s. In discussing his father's political career (Eugene Talmadge first served as the Commissioner of Agriculture in Georgia before serving as governor 1933-1937 and 1941-1943), Talmadge places his father within the changing social and political landscape of Georgia. Following his father's unexpected death in December 1946 just after having been elected governor again that same year, the younger Talmadge was elected by the legislature to fill his father's seat. His election, however, was highly contested and soon became a notorious scandal dubbed the "three governors controversy" (referred to by Talmadge here as the "Two Governors Row"). Although he firmly believed that he had been rightfully placed in office by the General Assembly, Talmadge was forced out of office by a Georgia Supreme Court ruling before returning in 1948, having been elected in his own right. In discussing that initial gubernatorial campaign, as well as his subsequent campaigns, Talmadge emphasizes the importance of his father's legacy in his own political career, the growing importance of race in Southern politics, his thoughts on his political rivals and colleagues, and his relationship with the press. Talmadge also discusses his decision to run for the United States Senate and his growing prominence in national politics during the 1960s and 1970s.
In this interview, the first in a three-part series, Herman Talmadge discusses his political career as Governor of Georgia and his decision to run for the United States Senate. The son of Eugene Talmadge, Herman Talmadge recalls his involvement in his father's gubernatorial campaigns during the 1930s and 1940s. He explains in detail his perception of the 1947 "three governors controversy" (referred to by Talmadge here as the "Two Governors Row"), which arose after he was appointed governor by the legislature, only to be removed following a ruling by the Georgia Supreme Court. Talmadge also discusses his own political campaigns, his relationship with his political rivals and colleagues, and the growing importance of race in Southern politics during the mid-twentieth century.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is Jack Nelson in Washington, D.C. on July 15, 1975, interviewing Senator Herman Talmadge for the Southern Oral History Program. We are now at Senator Talmadge's apartment on New Mexico Avenue at 6:00 a.m. and I think that Senator Talmadge has just come back . . . have you already been on the job?
I got up at 2:40 and the first thing that I did was to have breakfast, I read a little more than an hour from Patton's papers here, 1945, and at 4:20, I went out and ran and walked about two and a half miles and came back and cooled off and after about forty-five minutes and went in to take a shower and was just getting dressed as you rang the doorbell at six.
Well, 2:40 is about an hour earlier than you usually get up?
Yes, about an hour earlier than I normally get up.
Does that just mean that you went to bed earlier or what?
I went to bed about 8:30, I woke up earlier and couldn't go back to sleep.
I think that you've told me before that you go to bed with the chickens and get up with the chickens.
I beat them up.
Yes, beat them up.
Yes, he was elected Commissioner of Agriculture in 1926.
I meant Commissioner.
Prior to that time, he had run for local office three times and was defeated. He ran for the legislature, the House of Representatives twice and the State Senate once. My father was somewhat of a maverick and they had a courthouse political machine in Telfair County and they knew that my father wouldn't take orders and they didn't want him to go to the legislature and he didn't go. However, when he ran for statewide office, they got behind him and supported him and supported him loyally until his death, in all of his races thereafter.
When were you first really caught up in his political career? Even in his earlier races when he lost?
Of course, I knew little about them at that time, I was quite young. The first time, I guess that I was really reasonably active in his political career was the first race for Commissioner of Agriculture in 1926. At that time, I was twelve years old, about thirteen about the time that he was elected and I remember his famous debate with J.J. Brown in McRae, Georgia, I attended that. We had sent some wagon loads of water melons up there to help feed the crowds. After the debate was over, my father and Mr. Brown were shaking hands and he introduced Mr. Brown to me and I went and got him the biggest watermelon out of the pile and he said, "Give it to my chauffer over there and have him put it in the car."
Can you tell us something about the debate?
Well, of course, J.J. Brown at that time was one of the most powerful
political factors in the state. He had a vast organization of employees
that did little but politic and they were selected from influential
families and because of their political awareness. They were supposed to
be an unbeatable machine. My father was an unknown country lawyer and
farmer there that lived five miles south of McRae, Georgia. No one
took
Were you active in his later campaigns as well?
Yes. About the time that he ran for governor, in 1932, I had just
finished my freshman year at the University of Georgia and one of my
duties was to advertise his speeches. In those days, you would go to all
the little towns around there and nail up placards, paste signs on trees
and on the placards in courthouses and things of that nature. I remember
one time that I was advertising a speech that he was to make at
Cedartown, Georgia. I went in the meat market. In those days, the meat
markets had sawdust on the ground and had a big round trunk of a tree
there that they used as a table to cut up the meat when the housewives
would come in to buy it. I handed this butcher a circular there
announcing my father's speech and he said, "I wouldn't vote for
that goddamned son of a bitch for nothing." I didn't know
whether to hit him or run or what to do. I learned then that all you can
do is turn the other cheek. So, I walked on out and kept on delivering
circulars. Then, thereafter, in 1934 when he was seeking reelection as
governor, I made my first political speech. I had a friend in college
named Aubrey Evans from Sycamore, Georgia, and he decided to have a big
Talmadge rally down in Turner County, near Sycamore. We had an old
cotton warehouse
This was sort of heady stuff.
Yes, it was heady stuff. That was my first political speech.
Did he ever carry Fulton and DeKalb?
Yes. He never did carry DeKalb for governor. He carried Fulton in one of his races for governor and strangely enough, he was always very strong in Clarke County until he and Abit Nix ran against each other for governor in 1932. My father had a good many relatives in Clarke County named Talmadge. They were widely respected students, he had been a student there and was known by a good many of the families. My grandfather had been a student there and he was known to a good many of the families. So, he was very popular until he defeated Mr. Nix, who was Clarke County's favorite son. Thereafter, my father never carried Clarke County as long as he lived. I didn't carry it in my first two races for governor, but Abit Nix got to be my friend and he introduced me when I ran for the United States Senate and I carried Clarke County that time and I have carried it every race that I have made since.
Didn't your father used to have . . . I can remember some of the quotes attributed to him about never wanting to carry a county that had streetcars in it?
You know, it's strange how thing alleged to have been said become facts
and become history. Now, here is what happened. The first
It didn't sound like a statement that any politician would make.
No politician would ever make a statement like that. As a matter of fact, he carried many counties where streetcars ran. He carried Richmond County most of the time. He carried Chatham County most of the time and he carried Muscogee County most of the time. Streetcars ran in all those counties.
What about your father, Senator Talmadge, can you describe what you think his impact on the state was?
Before I get into that, let me give you another myth that was alleged to have been a statement of my father's and that was not a fact. He has repeatedly been quoted as having said that "The farmer has only three friends: God Almighty, Sears Roebuck and Gene Talmadge." He never made that statement. Some individual, in introducing him to an audience once, made that statement and it was attributed to my father. Well, getting back to my father as an individual . . .
Were there other myths? I'm sure that there were.
Oh yes, many of them, but I don't recall any at the moment except those
two. I've read them both a thousand times and I don't know how things
can get so . . . the press will pick it up once or twice, you know and
then some fellow will write an article about it and he will quote from
the
I wouldn't doubt that there are a few about you like that.
Oh, I'm certain of it. I remember one about me. I am alleged to have
written the then Attorney General Eugene Cook whether or not, after I
had served an unexpired term as governor, whether I could seek a full
term as governor. I was alleged to have ended it up by adding another
paragraph that "If I am ineligible to run for governor, am I
eligible to run for Attorney General?"
I remember that. You never wrote that? It was a good story.
It was a good story.
And he was quite slim, too, as I remember.
Yes. In those days, when he ran for Commissioner of Agriculture, 1926, he was about thirty-nine years old and at that time, he weighed about 125 pounds.
How about later, though?
Yes, later on, he gained a good bit of weight. I think that the heaviest
that he ever was was about 180 pounds, probably in his second or third
term as governor of Georgia. Then shortly before he died, as a matter of
fact, I remember the incident very well . . . I had returned from my
first tour in the South Pacific, about twenty-two and a half months in
the South Pacific. I had twenty days leave and I spent that time with my
family at McRae, Georgia and my wife's family at Ashburn, Georgia. We
had a young son that I never saw until he was fourteen and a half months
old and I spent most of that time getting acquainted with him. But then
my father was hale and vigorous. That was in 1943, about June, I guess.
Then the next time that I saw him, my next tour of duty was as executive
officer of a preliminary detail for an attack transport. Our ship was
commissioned
Can you go back to something that you were mentioning to me before we
began the interview, about the book that was written on your father as a
"wild man from Sugar Creek." You said that you
thought, I
That's right. First let me get back to Williams' Huey
Long. I thought that it was one of the greatest biographies that I
ever read and when I picked it up, I could barely put it down. I had
read many books on long and knew him personally, every article that I
could lay my hands on. He was a very colorful individual. He was one of
my heroes when I was in college and I subscribed to The
American Progress, which was his political newspaper, to read
about him. Williams had done oral interviews for a period of ten years
to write the biography of Long. Almost every sentence had a footnote
giving the source. He had sought out all of Long's contemporaries, his
friends and foes and neutral people and did a thorough, I thought, well
rounded biography of Long, projecting the good and the bad. Before
Anderson's Book was published, he sent me some proofs and I read it and
he didn't get the Eugene Talmadge that I knew. The first instance,
whereas Williams had probably interviewed three thousand people, or
approximately that, I think that Anderson had interviewed less than a
hundred and some of his sources that he quoted were anonymous, which
Williams never did. A good many inaccuracies were in the book and he
didn't get the Eugene Talmadge that I knew. He did get color, the flavor
of my father, but that was about all.
What do you think was missing from it?
Well, he really dominated the politics of Georgia from 1926 until he died
in 1946. In fact, he dominated it for a time after his death. I would
never have been elected governor of Georgia by the legislature or by the
people had I not been Eugene Talmadge's son. My father had a following
of about a third of the people who thought that he could do no wrong.
There was about another third of the people in the state that thought he
could do no right. Then, there was about another third that would
support him when they thought he was right and oppose him when they
thought he was wrong. That was the reason that he could have so many ups
and downs in his political career. I don't know of anyone in the history
of Georgia that could have been defeated for the Senate by Russell,
defeated for the Senate by George and then come back and be elected
governor in 1940 and then have been defeated by Arnall in 1942 and then
come back and be elected governor again in 1946. Had he not had that
solid support that was with him and then when the issues would change
somewhat in my father's favor and the third of the people that were
neither strong Talmadge people nor strong anti-Talmadge people would
tend to support my father, he would win. When they would leave him, he
would lose. So, he dominated the politics of the state for more than
twenty years, probably to a greater degree than any other man in the
history of the state unless it was Tom Watson. Tom Watson made and
unmade governors for a period of about ten or fifteen years and then was
elected to the United States Senate in 1920 and died in office in the
Senate in 1922. Both of them had strong followings that would do most
anything that they said.
Of course, some of the Georgia political leaders have never really tried that. I think that you usually stayed away from other people's politics as a general rule.
That's right.
Although I do think that you did help Senator Nunn.
Yes, I helped Senator Nunn and I helped Marvin Griffin. I campaigned openly for Senator Nunn. I did not campaign openly for Marvin Griffin. I did pass the word that he was the most likely choice that could win. Fred Hand was a close friend of mine and if I could have appointed the governor, I think that I would have selected Fred Hand in preference to Marvin Griffin. But Fred was a rather cold and aloof sort of fellow that didn't take on with the voters.
Going back to your father's career, what about the people in Georgia who were his leading political allies? Did he have any over a period of years?
Yes, but very few of them, however, were politicians Politicians, as a
rule, didn't support my father. Those were the days of the courthouse
rings and the county unit systems and the politicians wanted governors,
when they had to do something in their county, they could be a deputy
governor of their particular county. In other words, a strong man
politically in Tailferr County for a long time was Zack Cravey and then
Henry Williams. And we had other strong men like that in counties,
both
What about the earlier part of his career? Even then he didn't really have political alliances with public figures?
No, particularly in his early campaigns. When he ran against Brown, I imagine that Brown had practically every political leader in the state supporting him because they first thought that he was invincible. He had ties to most of the county officials, through employees, relatives, friends, things of that nature. When my father ran for governor in 1932, there were very few local political leaders that were supporting him because he was always an independent minded man and a maverick. Politicians like to support candidates that they can control, at least when it comes to doing what they want done in their individual counties. Now, in 1934, when my father was seeking reelection as governor, it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to be reelected, it was just a question of degree. Politicians like winners, he probably had most of the county officers with him at that time. In 1936, when he was running against Senator Russell, he jumped on Roosevelt, alienated a lot of people and made a lot of them mad and he had very few politicians with him at that time. The same thing was true when he opposed Senator George. In 1940, he was making somewhat of a comeback, Governor Rivers had fouled things up to a certain degree. The state was heavily in debt and couldn't pay the state employees, couldn't pay the school teachers and then a good many politicians gravitated to my father in the 1940 campaign. Then in 1942, I was off in the Pacific in the Navy at that time. Most of the politicians had left him as a result of his alienation of the newspapers and many political leaders with the Cocking Affair and the discrediting of the University of Georgia . . .
The Cocking Affair. That was . . .
That was a professor over at the University of Georgia that he fired.
Oh, yes.
Can you go back to the book, The Wild Man From Sugar
Creek, where did he get the title?
As the result of a magazine article. They wrote many magazine articles about my father in his days as governor in '33 to '37.
Was this partly as a result of his being such a colorful political character?
Yes, that and everything else and the fact that he was the only
Democratic governor in the United States that didn't like the New Deal
and he had had his wars with Roosevelt and Gollier's
Magazine or some such news magazine as that would send their writer down
to do a story on him. I've forgotten which magazine that "wild
man from Sugar Creek" first appeared. Probably Collier's.
I suppose that it also had to do with the fact that he was a very outspoken segregationist and in those times . . .
Well, as a matter of fact, everyone was a segregationist at that time in the South. I don't think that segregation ever got to be an issue in any of his campaigns . . .
Well, it was only an issue in the North, right?
Yes.
It was an issue in the North and . . .
And it wasn't much of an issue then. I don't think that segregation ever
got to be an issue in any of his campaigns until his campaign for
reelection as governor in 1942. Some people over at the University of
Georgia got Dr. Cocking, who was the Dean of the College of Education,
as I recall, at the University at the time, with promoting integration
in thecause celebre, one of the
biggest in the state and resulted in my father being defeated for
reelection for governor in '42. But even in those days . . .
There's no question in your mind that that was the reason for his being defeated?
None whatever. He would have been overwhelmingly reelected except for that issue.
Did he ever regret having done that?
Well, I knew that it was a tragic political mistake and I tried to disuade him and so did my mother, but once that my father made up his mind, he was the most stubborn independent minded man that I ever knew in my life. If he thought that the whole world was against him and he thought that he was right, he would head right down the same path.
Well, did he realize at that time that it would be a political liability to do that?
I don't know whether he did or not. Certainly he did subsequently.
You certainly told him, though.
Yes, I did.
And so did your mother?
Yes.
Your mother is Miss Mitt?
Yes, she is still living. She's ninety-five years of age and her mind is still sharp, she's still active physically and she works everyday.
She advises you politically?
Oh yes, sure. It's good advice, too.
I'm sure it is. Can you say something about her part in your father's campaigns?
Well, primarily in the early days, she stayed home and ran the farm when my father was Commissioner of Agriculture. When she was governor, she had taken over the operation of the farms down in Tellfair Counties and continued that until he left as Commissioner of Agriculture. Then subsequently, my father acquired some farms and he didn't do much row croping on his, he would raise beef cattle primarily and my mother would run her farms and my father would run his. She would travel around with him for his speeches. When he served as governor, she moved to the executive mansion and of course, acted as his hostess and wife there. But when he was not governor, she would be down at the farm in McRae, looking after the farms and my father would practice law in Atlanta and commute back to McRae on weekends. That was the usual routine.
Was she really active politically other than . . .
Oh yes, she was very active and a very good politician.
She went on the stump with your father?
She wouldn't make speeches, but she would sit on the platform with him.
My mother was a Thurmond, a cousin of Strom Thurmond, about a second
cousin, I believe. She moved from South Carolina to Long Pond, a
Now, you have always been very close to your mother.
Yes.
Can you say anything about her impact on your own career? Did she encourage you in politics early in the game or did she see how rough and tumble it was and maybe wanted to dissuade you from it?
Well, as a matter of fact, when I was in grammar school or grade school,
or high school, and we would study about the history of this country and
the U.S. Senate and the Haney and Webster and Calhoun debates and the
part that the Senate played in our government, my only early political
ambition was to be a U.S. Senator. Strangely enough, my first ambition,
I think, was to be a preacher. I would read these Biblical stories about
Daniel in the lion's den and things of that nature. I first thought that
I wanted to be a preacher and then I got further advanced and reading
about the Senate and thought that if I ever got into politics, I wanted
to be a United States Senator. Then, after I got out of law school and
started practicing, about everytime that I would get my practice going
to where I could make a living,
Now, by this time, you had already seen this change in his health?
Yes. I didn't realize it was as serious as it was and no one else did. I managed his campaign in 1946 and he was elected and died in December just before he was supposed to take office for the fourth term as governor in 1947.
How quickly did his health seem to deteriorate?
Well, he campaigned more vigorously and harder in that '46 campaign than any campaign in his life time. I saw that it was necessary, the Negroes were voting in large numbers for the first time in the history of the state. The white primary had been outlawed and they were supporting Mr. Carmichael unanimously. All the press was supporting Mr. Carmichael . . .
That's James Carmichael.
James V. Carmichael, he's dead now, from Marrieta, Georgia, a very fine
man. The newspapers were almost unanimously opposed to my father. The
only exception in the daily papers, I believe, was the Savannah Press, they were supporting my father and a few little
weeklies were supporting my father, but 95% of all the press in Georgia
was supporting Mr. Carmichael. The Negroes in a solid bloc were
supporting Mr. Carmichael.
What percentage of the electorate would they have been at that time?
Oh, probably 20%.
They would have been 20% of the registered voters?
Yes.
Which was relatively high in the Deep South?
Oh, very high, yes. And all of the state machinery was
Now, at that time, Roy Harris was publishing the Augusta Courier and . . .
He had started publishing his little Augusta Courier
and he was at that time, speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives
and had been quite a very effective political leader in his own right,
particularly in managing his own campaigns. He had been primarily
involved in managing all the anti-Talmadge campaigns. He had managed Ed
Rivers' campaigns for governor and he had managed Ellis Arnall's
campaigns for governor and he was identified as a campaign manager for
the other side and of course, I was the campaign manager for my father.
So, our knowledge pooled together was highly effective in our
campaign.
How did you happen to lure him over?
He got sore with Ellis Arnold about some of his views, segregation and other things.
Was it after Ellis had written the book, The Shore Dimly
Seen?
Yes. And also when Ellis had made all these attacks on the state and Roy,
I think, wanted to be governor and Ellis had tried to amend the
constitution so that he could be governor again and Roy stopped
I was going to say, that's an awfully large state.
It was a very heavy speaking schedule, a man killer and he carried it through. There were very few speaking engagements that he missed.
Did he fly at all?
No, in those days, he went by automobile. I pinch hit for him a few times on some of his speeches and when he had a cold, something of that nature. Then, when the campaign was over, he was quite restless. He made a trip to Mexico and made a trip out to Yellowstone Park and then he made a trip, I believe, down to Jacksonville Beach. I got a call from Jacksonville Beach that he had had a hemorrhage down there. It was shortly before the Democratic convention where he was supposed to accept the nomination as governor. I got a plane there, had to fly through Augusta, Georgia. From Atlanta to Augusta and from Augusta to Savannah and from Savannah on down to Jacksonville. I got there and got to the hospital, I had no idea that it was going to be serious, but we had the Democratic convention coming up in about two days . . .
And this would have been in what month?
I guess October, 1946. So, the doctor told me that he didn't think that
it was anything serious at all and that he had had a hemorrhage and
losing blood from a vein and said that he was going to have to stay in
the hospital for a few days, however. So, I knew that he couldn't be
present for the Democratic convention. So, I went back to the hotel
and
In other words, there was no feeling then that he had cirrhosis of the liver?
They thought that he did have cirrhosis of the liver but they didn't
realize that it was as serious as it was.
Do you recall the lawyers that you checked with?
Oh, Buck Murphy and Sam Hewlitt and W. S. Mann and a good
And that was because the legislature would have to elect from the people who got votes?
That's right, because that constitutional provision had been called to my
attention by a county school supertindent in Jasper County. So, I got
several hundred votes in Tellfair County and I think that I got a few
hundred in Worth County and a few hundred in Macon County and a
scattering number of other counties. And when we had that famous two
governor row, it finally wound up that Jimmy Carmichael had four or five
hundred write in votes and I had about a hundred more write in votes
than he had. So, that's when we had that famous Two Governor Row down
there in 1947, when the General Assembly elected me governor by a vote
of about two to one. The networks stayed on the air all night, I was
inaugurated about one thirty or two in the morning, made an
extemperaneous speech to the General Assembly of Georgia that was
broadcast all over the United States . . .
Did you fully expect to remain as governor or . . .
Yes, I thought that I would. In those days, I was pretty naive. I thought
that judges, regardless of their political inclinations, would uphold
the law as they saw it. I had been taught to respect the courts, I
had
How many members were in the Home Guard?
I don't remember now. But everyone was wondering when the National Guard and the Home Guard were going to start shooting each other. In any event, after Governor Arnall refused to surrender the office, I gave orders to the National Guard to see that Governor Arnall was escorted all the way to Newnan, Georgia and no harm befell him and then when they did that, to come back to the capitol and change locks on the capitol door, the governor's office. I would be in early the next moring and take possession of the governor's office, which I did.
I think that he showed up the next morning, didn't he?
He showed up . . .
It was Bill Benton wasn't it, that came to the door and . . .
I had been in the office, I guess, for about an hour and Governor Arnall
came in demanding his office. Benton said, "If you want to see
the governor, you will have to sit down and wait your turn like
everybody else."
So, he didn't come in, then did he?
No, he stormed out, took him a seat under the rotunda of the state
capitol and he stayed there for a day or two and finally one of my
friends in the state Senate, Jimmy Dykes, got one of those huge
firecrackers about six inches long and he got up on the floor above
Governor Arnall there and lit that firecracker and dropped it right
behind Governor Arnall's desk and it it went off, ca-whoom! I think that
Arnall thought that somebody was throwing a bomb at him or shooting him
or something.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
. . . there were two of the bonified, two of them in Fulton County
there, the Atlanta papers, particularly the Journal,
was giving me the devil night and day every issue. Judge Hendrix ruled
in my favor. Judge Bond Almand ruled in my favor, both fine judges. Bond
Almand was probably the ablest judge Georgia has had in my lifetime.
Then the opposition was getting desperate that I had won two cases in a
row. Under Georgia law, when you have a forfiture of a bond, the suit
must be filed in the name of the governor of Georgia. So, they trumped
them up a bond forfiture in Floyd County before Judge Claude Porter's
court. He had been a violent anti-Talmadge man, had made stump speeches
right and left. He ruled in behalf of M.E. Thompson. So, the three cases
went to the state Supreme Court and the state Supreme Court ruled
against me by a vote of five to two and when they ruled against me, I
knew that I couldn't operate the state and face the court decision. So,
I
In your last campaigns, right? Let me ask you, I think that you believe to this day that the court was wrong.
I know that they were. I've got proof of it.
You think that the Lester Maddox case is . . .
The Lester Maddox case was identical to my own. They had had a failure of election and the General Assembly elected Lester Maddox and the state Supreme Court ruled in favor of Lester Maddox by two and the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in favor of Lester Maddox five to four. So, twenty years later, I was vindicated by two courts, the U.S. Supreme Court and the state Supreme Court, but eighteen months later, I was vindicated by the people, which was the most important.
Just briefly, Senator, can you say what the Lester Maddox case was. This was where Lester Maddox . . .
That was when we had a failure of election. You recall that there was a runover race between Lester Maddox and Ellis Arnall and Ellis Arnall and . . .
Well, Lester Maddox got the nomination?
Yes. Lester Maddox got the nomination. And then there was a race between Bo Callaway and Lester Maddox.
That was the Republican nominee?
That's right. Bo Callaway was the Republican nominee and Lester Maddox was the Democratic nominee and there were a lot of people unhappy about both of them. They got a write in campaign for former Governor Ellis Arnall and he received, as I recall, about thirty odd thousand votes.
52,000, something like that.
And Callaway had several hundred more votes, maybe 1500 or 2,000 more votes than Maddox. No one had a majority. So, you had a failure of election and the General Assembly had to elect the governor and the General Assembly was about 90% Democratic, so they elected Lester Maddox.
And they had to elect it out of the two top vote getters in the general election, which was identical to your case.
Yes.
Did the question ever come up in your case of vote fraud in Telfair County in connection with some of the write in votes?
There was a lot of publicity about it, but no one . . .
It didn't become part of the litigation, however? That was never raised?
No.
George Goodwin won a Pulitizer Prize for the Atlanta Journal on . . .
Yes, Stanley Brooks, who was an old desk mate of mine down in Telfair
County, was a close friend of mine and he was a very strong political
leader in Helena, Georgia. He could have gotten me 90% of the votes down
there any way that he wanted to, but I guess that he wanted to do it the
simple way so he voted them in alphabetical order.
And it turned out, I think, that some of the people
Might have been.
Yes, I think that they called it "tombstone voting" or something. In any event, that is the story behind that. Was there any continuing of rancor between you and Ellis Arnall after you took office?
Not really. Actually, when I ran for the Senate, now Ellis didn't support me for reelection as governor. In fact, he and Ed Rivers had managed M.E. Thompson's campaign to the unexpired term and I had defeated him and they both supported M.E. when he ran against me again in 1950. But when I ran for the Senate, I think that the first contribution that I got was from Ellis Arnall. So, almost all my political opponents at one time or the other, almost without exception, have afterwards supported me.
Now, you were in office as the interim governor while the case was being decided for what? Something like sixty-three days?
Sixty-seven, as I recall.
Well, how did the state operate?
Well, the bankers had agreed to accept certification of B.E. Thrasher on the vouchers there . . .
The state auditor.
Yes, Thrasher countersigned them and they paid the warrants.
Now, as I remember, didn't Ben Fortson withhold the governor's seal or something?
Well, that really was just an act, because we had no necessity for the seal. The seal would have only been required on official documents like appointments of United States Senators and things like that.
The state treasurer, George Hamilton . . .
He is alleged to have sat on the seal during all that time.
Sat on it, yes.
But I had no necessity for the seal during that sixty-seven days. I was interested in getting litigation out of the way, the legislature was in session, the state was operating, everybody was being paid . . .
Didn't George Hamilton, the state treasurer, try to prevent some of the payments or something? As I remember, he . . .
No. He paid them, as I recall.
But he was in the other . . .
Oh, he was in the other camp. But the bankers were accepting Thrasher's warrants and that took care of it.
So, you were in sixty-seven days and Ellis Arnall . . . well, M.E. Thompson came in after that.
Actually, the court held that Arnall would hold over and then Ellis resigned and Thompson took over as acting governor.
So then you went back to practice law?
Well, I didn't have much time to practice law, I was busy appealing my case to the court of last resort. I was campaigning.
You continued the campaign then?
Yes. I was all over the state. I would leave every Monday morning and come back Saturday afternoon. That was the routine until the election was over.
Right. Now, was your mother campaigning with you at that time?
Not until I formally and officially announced and then
Did George Stewart hold a position at that time?
No, George Stewart at that time, I believe, was assistant secretary of the Democratic party of Georgia. Iris Blitch was the secretary. I had designated her at my father's convention. And afterwards, I became governor and George Stewart became secretary of the Senate. And I believe also secretary of the party when Iris Blitch came to Congress.
When did the race issue first come up, Senator, in your own political campaigns and how did it come up? Do you recall?
Actually, I don't know that it came up until the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 and I had already served six years as governor of Georgia at that time. We didn't have much of a race issue. We did have the Democratic white primary issue. My father had pledged to restore the Democratic white primary and so did I. So, you could say that the race issue came up then.
Yeah, that was considered a part of it at that time. You had pledged to restore it, but you were never able to . . .
Well, we repealed the election laws, but the Supreme Court then said that that still wasn't sufficient. They were determined that they were going to outlaw the white primary regardless.
Yes. Now one of the quotes that I think was attributed to you
I expect that I did, yes.
And I have also seen you quoted more recently in the magazine articles that you could look back, as maybe anybody could, on things that you maybe wished you hadn't said or wish you hadn't done, but in the context of the time, you did them.
Yes. You become older and wiser. Sometimes you said things different and not at all. It is about time that I've got to go to the office. We have been at it about an hour.
Right. That's good. We'll stop.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Senator, I did read The Wild Man From Sugar Creek,
which really just came out this year. I didn't realize that it was that
new and you had told me before we began the interview here something
about the witnesses that Mr. Anderson used. I wonder if you could just
say something else about that.
His sources of information, as you saw from reading the book, were somewhat limited. Where he was completely wide of the mark, he quoted anonymous sources. Most of the witnesses that he quoted that were hostile to my father were well educated and highly articulate. Most of the witnesses that he quoted that were favorable to my father were limited in education and some of them were near morons.
I know that you thought very highly of your father. He had a
I never heard him say that. My father was extremely stubborn. Once he made up his mind on an issue, it was pretty well set and concrete. No one could deter him if he firmly made up his mind and was commited to a position.
Anderson also mentioned something about your days at the University of Georgia. Did you get involved in politics there?
Yes. I was commander of my fraternity, which is the equivalent of being president of it. I was also president of the interfraternity council. Anderson quoted Mr. John Monihan in the book that her husband had to go over to the university several times and get me out of scrapes. That was completely untrue.
This was another case then of . . .
Pure fabrication. In its entirety.
Another thing that I was very interested in was when you told me earlier that Huey Long was one of the persons that you most admired in life.
I was fascinated by Huey Long's color, his dynamic speaking style, his
total supremacy in the state of Louisiana. He was the only man, I think,
in the history of the country that ever completely took charge of the
judicial, legislative and executive branch of government within his
state. I used to subscribe to his newspaper, The American
Progress. He had one of the quickest minds that I ever saw. I
would read some of the debates in the Senate and sometimes he would take
on the entire Senate singlehandedly and I never saw him bested.
On the other hand, probably some of his political philosophy
His political philosophy at that time even at that time, was alien to my own and as I got in politics and government myself, I don't buy his share the wealth theory and things of that nature.
Also, according to Anderson, I think that he quoted some speech or some comment that Huey Long had made to the press. He was supposed to have had some contempt for your father.
I saw that in Anderson's book. I don't know whether he ever said that or not. Huey in those days sometimes drank to excess. He might have made a derogatory remark while he was under the influence, but I doubt that he had contempt for my father. I thought that they were good friends.
You doubt that there was any enmity between then, then?
There wasn't any at all. My father didn't buy his political philosophy, although he did support his program to curtail cotton production until we got it out of surplus.
Another thing that I wanted to ask you about was Anderson's writing that your father had sent you to see President Roosevelt and promised that the Talmadges were burying the hatchet and so forth. That was untrue, too?
Yes.
You didn't go then?
No.
Now, another thing that he said concerning your father was that he admired Hitler and had read Hitler's book seven times.
I doubt that.
You and I talked about the Cocking affair some yesterday. What about the Pittman affair?
It was somewhat similar. I was off in the Navy at that time and there were some charges made against Dr. Pittman, who was at that time president of the College at Statesboro, Georgia and Dr. Pittman was removed along with Dr. Cocking.
You disagreed with your father, and I think that you told me this when we had the first interview, on a number of occasions. Your political advice to him, at least, was different on the Cocking affair. What about also your disagreeing with him on emphasizing the race issue in the '40s?
Actually, the race issue was never emphasized in any of his races to any great degree. It was a collateral issue in the Cocking affair and probably in the Pittman affair and indirectly was involved in his 1942 campaign for reelection at that time. Now, the race issue was directly involved in the 1946 campaign. Just prior to that campaign, the federal judiciary had outlawed the Democratic white primary that had been in existence in Georgia, I believe, since 1906 until 1946, for a period of forty years. And the principle issue in his 1946 campaign was an attempt to restore the Democratic white primary.
And you really did play and very important part in the '46 campaign.
Yes, I managed the campaign. I managed three of his campaigns, the campaign in 1938 against Senator George, where we lost. The campaign in 1940 for election of governor to a third term, we won and I managed his 1946 campaign, which we won.
Now Anderson apparently was quoting you, Senator, in his book when he said that you had written the platform and you told your father that and that now it was time for him to run.
That's right.
And that he told you that he thought you were carrying him a little too far with some liberal things. What were the planks that would have been too liberal?
I emphasize that I thought the state was ready to make progress, it was subsequent to World War II, and the state had pretty much stood still throughout the war. Of course, with a total dedication to the war effort. So, we emphasized progress in education and in roads, primarily, and I believe also in natural resources. I had returned from the Navy and I saw that my father was involved in running for governor again. So, along in the spring of the year, I've forgotten the exact time, April or May, I would think, I wrote a suggested platform and took it in to him and told him that if he was going to announce, I thought that we ought to issue that statement in the next Sunday's paper. He looked it over and looked up at me and said, "You are taking me pretty fast, aren't you, son?" I said, "You've got to go fast if you expect to win this one." He signed it and I delivered it to the newspapers, I believe, on Saturday for Sunday release. That's my recollection.
Another thing that I had asked you about just as we were ending the
session last week, that you were quoted as saying that times and
conditions change and "I am certain that I have said many
things that I wouldn't today and done many things that I wouldn't do
today." Can you look back over your career, Senator, and think
of anything specifically in the context of today