[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

JAMES G. BANKS:

Let me just start with the early period and home life. You were born in 1902 and I wonder if you could think back to what the house was like, the size.

STROM THURMOND:

My wife was there yesterday, that's where I was born, Edgefield. I was born in the town of Edgefield, Columbia Street, I guess about three quarters of a mile from the court house. But we moved—it was three boys and three girls—and my father wanted the boys to work on a farm so we moved out of town, moved out to the country. So we grew up on the farm.

JAMES G. BANKS:

He specifically wanted you to have the farm experience, is that right?

STROM THURMOND:

That's right. He wanted us to see how hard it was to make a living on a farm.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How large a farm was it?

STROM THURMOND:

I was only about, probably four years old when we moved out there but I remember when I lived on the other street.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How many acres, do you recall?

STROM THURMOND:

Well it was in several different tracts. I guess it must have been thirty or forty acres there and pasture, maybe ten or fifteen acres at the other place and then about seven acres I believe, right at the house. Then we had land in the country, we had about six or seven more acres, one place about a thousand and another. After I got older, why, he would take me out in the buggy before automobiles came in.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I was going to ask you, did you have a car, do you remember when you got your first car?

STROM THURMOND:

We bought our first car in 1916, a Dodge automobile.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You remember that. And you were fourteen, did you drive it then?

STROM THURMOND:

Yes I did. Before then we'd get in the buggy and ride out to these farms in the country. One known as Nicholson Place which is about seven miles from Edgefield. The other was the Hilgal Place, that was about twelve, fifteen miles from Edgefield.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you have a lot of farm equipment to run that farm?

STROM THURMOND:

No, we didn't have any equipment at all, we didn't have any tractors.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So you had a lot of hired help, right?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, the land out in the country was done on division of the crops. My father would furnish the fertilizer and the seed, and finance and everything and split the crop with the man who worked it. We would go out and talk with these people every few weeks—ride the buggy out and talk with 'em. My father would talk to me going out there and back. At the time, sometimes I thought I'd rather be playing, but after going with him several times I learned it was so much fun and I found it very interesting to be with him, and enjoyed being with him.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did anybody else live with your family in the house, other than family?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, except a man. We did have a white man—Logan, cousin of my mother's who lived with us and worked there on the place some. But we had some other people that worked there—I'm speaking now of near Edgefield—we had other people. We had a cook, and we had a man who worked in the field. When I got big enough my job was to milk the cows, so I milked the cows up until I went off to college.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How many cows did you have?

STROM THURMOND:

Anywhere from three to half a dozen.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So what did you grow on these number of acres here and there. You had diverse agriculture?

STROM THURMOND:

Cotton and corn chiefly, some grains. We generally grew enough oats to feed the horses, corn and oats.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So you didn't have any farm equipment for cotton, so it all had to be hand labor, right?

STROM THURMOND:

Oh yeah. And when my neighbor went to war in about 1917, World War I, I bought his crop and worked it myself—I was about fourteen years old. I bought his crop and it helped him out, and then I thought I'd make some money. My brother and I actually bought it. He later became a doctor, obstetrician. He's delivered more babies than any doctors in Georgia or South Carolina, the older brother. At any rate, he didn't like to work much in the farm. I soon saw I wasn't going to get much work out of him so I bought him out. But it turned out he cleared about as much as I did because we had a drought that year. [laughter] But he was always cutting old frogs and snakes and things like that.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you ever get an allowance. You know, kids today want an allowance. Did you get a weekly allowance for doing these jobs around the place?

STROM THURMOND:

No, I don't believe we got an allowance. But I worked—I clerked in the store some on Saturdays. Clerked for Mr. Bob Dunovant Mr. J. D. Kemp. Also worked in a garage for George Adams on Saturdays in the summer time—not all summers but some times, maybe for a month. I had to work on the farm chiefly. When I clerked—well, I guess I was about fourteen, fifteen—I worked on the farm until I got big enough, then do that. And I still did some, my father required us to work on that farm.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Do you have a nickname?

STROM THURMOND:

No I don't.

JAMES G. BANKS:

They just called you that Thurmond boy. What did they say, they didn't call you . . .

STROM THURMOND:

I don't think any special nickname. I have an unusual first name. My mother was a Strom—S.T.R.O.M. they pronounce it, back then it was S.T.R.U.M.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Tell me about holidays at home, Christmas, Thanksgiving. Can you remember, think back, what that was like, what was served, any special dishes.

STROM THURMOND:

Well we always had good meals at our house. My father was a good lawyer and made considerable money practicing law. And we grew our own vegetables and we produced our own meat—hogs, hams.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you slaughter them right at the place?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, once a year, slaughtered at the farm.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Almost self sufficient.

STROM THURMOND:

Self sufficient. We grew our wheat and took it to the mill and we got whole wheat flour. He was way ahead of himself I guess that's the reason that today I still get bran from a mill to use—you know, it kind of puts hay in your stomach. [laughter] That bran's the kind we used to feed the calves when I was growing up. But we'd get the whole wheat—I mean, we'd grind the wheat into whole flour. And we also had corn and ground that in the mill; and produced the hams and shoulders and sausage and everything of that kind—we cured in the smokehouse.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Tremendous. You know, it's just impossible to do that today.

STROM THURMOND:

We used salt and some salt peters.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you have any pets yourself, a dog?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, my father gave me a calf once. Then that calf grew up and she had calves and he started me off that way in business—livestock. And then he later bought a horse for me—it was the prettiest little red horse you ever saw—a little mare. But she jumped the fence one day and got in the field where we'd cut some hay recently, unknown hay, and she ate too much and puffed up and died. Nearly broke my heart. At any rate, we produced just about everything we needed. We'd kill a calf occasionally.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Chickens too, I suppose?

STROM THURMOND:

Oh, we had chickens. The chickens run under the house as soon as they could tell when you were going to pick one to kill. I'd have to go under there and get 'em out.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I'd like to switch to your parents, if I could now. Your father was an attorney, can you give me a little background on his education?

STROM THURMOND:

He grew up down in what is known as Hawkins Creek—it's between Steven's Creek and Savannah River. And he rode about six to eight miles to school every day on a horse. His mother taught him, he said—he learned more from her than anybody else. She was English descent, born in New Orleans. She was well educated, I don't know whether she went to college or not. But, I remember her quite well—she died December 13, 1913—I was eleven years old. She was excellent in grammar. And he accepted his ambition and his ideals from her. His father fought in three wars. He fought in the Indian wars, in the Mexican wars, and the Confederate war.

JAMES G. BANKS:

That's George Washington Thurmond, isn't it?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah.

JAMES G. BANKS:

He fought in three wars. Cherokee war?

STROM THURMOND:

That's right, the Indian wars, yeah. He went out, way out to Texas, lived out there awhile—Houston, Texas. What's that town right near Houston, a fort town.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Galveston?

STROM THURMOND:

Galveston. He lived there awhile. I think he's still got some—he was married twice—some of his children or descendants are out there. At any rate, he came back to New Orleans and met my grandmother and married her. And that's when it took a long time to get around, well he got around somehow. He was an outdoorsman, kind of a roaming sort of fellow, and just went all around. He could drink liquor and work out in the open, had all of his teeth at eighty four, his hair too. Died at eighty four. But didn't seem to hurt him.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Now that was your father's father.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. G. W. Thurmond. He was tough, he was really an outdoors man. His wife was a very literary woman. Miss Felter, she was a Felter.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Mary Felter.

STROM THURMOND:

Mary Jane

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did your father go to college for long?

STROM THURMOND:

He went to school out there in the country. Then later he went to the University of South Carolina for one year. That's the only college education he had. He studied law in the office of Governor Shepherd.

JAMES G. BANKS:

John C. Shepherd.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. He stood the bar and they cited three of those who stood the bar for having excellent papers, and he was named first. Supreme Court cited three of 'em, just having such excellent papers. He was a good student, he had a very able mind, ablest lawyer I ever knew.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Do you think he viewed himself as a success, your father?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I don't know whether he did or not. I think, it was unfortunate, one time he had to kill a man. If it hadn't been for that I think he would have been governor or come to the senate or something. After that, I think he probably felt that he was hampered. Although he was appointed—he was solicitor at the time—he shot this man and killed him. And then after that he didn't run, he'd unknown but he finished out his term, that was about the middle of his second term. Only later he was appointed here as District Attorney by Woodrow Wilson, so that did not keep him from getting that appointment. Benjamin R. Tillman recommended him for it. He was a best friend of Benjamin R. Tillman, he was his attorney, his personal attorney. Tillman relied on him, he was his campaign manager.

JAMES G. BANKS:

That's coming up. So I just want to ask a couple of more things about your father. Was he home much of the time?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, he travelled. He had a branch office in Saluda, he had one in Lexington. He could go by train to Lexington, but he had to go by a buggy to Saluda at that time. He was home later a good deal, later in life.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you do a lot together, you told me about those buggy rides, but besides that?

STROM THURMOND:

Not so much, he was so busy.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Hunting together, or fishing, or anything like that?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, occasionally he went hunting, but I didn't go hunting with him very much. I was away in college. After I came back and started practicing law he started having—one attack before then—he started having heart attacks and had 'em for six to eight years. He was too stout, didn't take enough exercise, and he was writing this law book—Thurmond's key cases. In other words, he didn't follow a course that was healthy that he should have done. Every time he'd have a heart attack, why his pulse would go down to about fifteen. First time we thought he was going to die, but the doctor'd come, give him a puncture. He'd get over it in ten minutes, he's just as normal as ever before.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Give him a puncture?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, a shot in the arm. A shot in the arm, he give him something, and then his pulse would pick up. Ten minutes and he was all right. And he might go three or four months before he'd have another one. And that thing kept up for six to eight years.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Was it chronic coronary?

STROM THURMOND:

I don't know what it was. But he was writing this book though during that period too. I think that's one thing, he just over-worked himself.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Can we go to your mother for a minute. What influence did she have over your life.

STROM THURMOND:

She was a very dedicated Christian woman. And neither one of 'em drank whisky or used alcohol. Anyway, she was a great church goer. She could deliver a prayer as good as a preacher. [laughter] She had six children, had two miscarriages, and with one of the children she developed curvature of the spine, so she wasn't too well for the last number of years of her life. But she was a bright lady too. She won medals in college for declaiming, and things like that.

JAMES G. BANKS:

She went to college?

STROM THURMOND:

She went to GWC.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What's that.

STROM THURMOND:

Glenville Women's College. It was old GFC, Glenville Female College, changed later to GWC, and then changed later to and then Furman.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What was her attitude toward raising children, can you recall it or summarize it?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, she had so many children, so she didn't have too much time to spend on any one. But she always tried to check on us to see if we were properly dressed. And she always checked on the meals, we had a cook, but she would check to see that everything was right.

JAMES G. BANKS:

She didn't work outside the home, did she?

STROM THURMOND:

No, except just for exercise out in the flower garden. She would work out there. My father would encourage her to do that, which was good for her—to devote her mind to that, and good exercise.

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Her father was a doctor, and he died in his fifties, though, he was an honest and respected doctor—James Harrison Strom. He married a Reynolds, my mother was a Reynolds. A little related to old Maynard J. Reynolds.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Oh, the tobacco king. Would it be fair to say that your mother established a model for yourself as a wife and a mother. In other words, I'm wondering what influence your mother had in terms of establishing what you would look for in a mother or a wife.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, she had an influence so far as how I viewed life. Yeah, she did. And she was always interested in seeing the right meals were prepared and encouraging the children to study their lessons. She would help us some if we got stumped but they generally made us do our own work. My father was the dominant character in the family.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Who was—I was going to say—who was the disciplinarian. Wait 'till your father gets home—did she ever say that?

STROM THURMOND:

[laughter] Yeah, that's right. We were afraid of him because he'd use a stick on you, or use a paddle, or he'd use a leather strap. You ever see one of these razor straps—he'd use that or use a paddle, either one. And she would threaten to tell my father if I didn't behave you see.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did he ever have to give you a . . . ?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, he paddled me several times. [laughter] Not to many though because, . . .

JAMES G. BANKS:

Once is enough.

STROM THURMOND:

Because he paddled pretty hard. As far as she was concerned, well, we would try to run away from her and she couldn't catch us.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you run away from her.

STROM THURMOND:

She'd cry, come back here, I'm going to spank you. So we'd run up and get out on the porch on the house and she couldn't get us. We had an upstairs, on the second floor we had a big porch—you could get out on that. And then she wouldn't try to pursue us. She couldn't in the first place, and in the second place she was afraid that we might try to climb down from up there and get hurt. But the threat of telling him, or the threat of having him do it was because he meant business. Now she would kind of plead with you, but when he spoke, he was very firm and very determined and very decisive.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did your parents ever talk about anyone they admired, or did they describe values to you that they would emphasize. I'm wondering, we have models—I wonder if our parents ever had models for behavior. Did they ever mention anybody to you as children?

STROM THURMOND:

I don't know, dad especially, we kind of looked on him as the model.

JAMES G. BANKS:

He was the boss.

STROM THURMOND:

That's the reason I guess I never did smoke cigarettes, or drink, 'cause he didn't. And that's the reason I guess I learned to eat whole wheat bread, 'cause he did. And that's the reason that, a lot of the health habits I picked up from him. He ate a lot of fruits and

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vegetables, except he got so busy and ate too much, and that thing got him into trouble. But we used to go down to Senator Tillman's, particularly on a Sunday afternoon when he was there. When Congress was not in session. It was just six miles, to go in a buggy down there, you can go down there in about an hour. I remember one time we went down there, well he told me, he said—when you get there now, you go up, put your hand out and shake hands with Senator Tillman.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Your dad telling you this now?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. Well, when I got there he spoke to him and I came up to the man, I'd shake hands with him. Senator Tillman was a stern fellow, very profane too. He looked at me and says, "What do you want?"

JAMES G. BANKS:

Scare you? [laughter]

STROM THURMOND:

Well he didn't scare me because my father had told me what kind of man he was. I said, I want to shake hands with you. And he says, "Well, why in the hell don't you shake then." I shook it several times, I been shaking hands ever since. [laughter]

JAMES G. BANKS:

That's very good. [laughter] He had a kind of a terrifying appearance—missing an eye wasn't it.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, that's right. I think maybe, I don't whether someone shot him in that eye or what happened, but something happened. He was a very dynamic fellow though. The best stump speaker, I guess, the state ever produced.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you ever hear him?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. I heard him speak, 'course I was just a kid. But my father always wanted us to hear the different people who came to speak, all the campaigns. See, the big entertainment back in those days was two things. One was to go to courthouse and hear cases tried. So I'd go up and hear a lot of cases tried, just got intrigued by cases being tried.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How often did you go there to hear these cases, every week?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, when they'd have court. They'd have it about, once in the spring, once in the fall, once in the winter. And as school was out I'd get to the courtroom to hear those cases. That was a big entertainment. They have those picture shows there, but I liked this better than a picture show. And then, every two years when people ran for office and have stump speaking, I'd want to go and hear them.

I remember when Blease and Ira Jones ran for governor in 1912. And we were for Jones, he had been Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and a very fine man. But he was not a stirrer of people's souls. He was not a picturesque character like Blease. I remember they had him down there close to where the old high school was where I went to school, down at the bottom by the Creek they had a platform built.

Well, Blease was quite a speaker you know. He kind of ridiculed Jones. Well Jones wouldn't pay any attention to him make his speech. Blease won by a close vote. That's one time we felt the best man didn't win. But Blease was such a speaker.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Bowled them over.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, he did. And that's the way then they judged people. And now, you're on television and different things. But back then it was stump speaking, whoever could make the best speech on the stump was going to get elected.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You didn't need a press writer, wrote your own.

STROM THURMOND:

No, you just didn't have any press writers.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I want to move into school, early school. Where, and what you studied, whether you liked it, your favorite teacher, and that kind of thing.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I went to school at Edgefield—went to grammar school and high school at the same place.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Do you remember a favorite teacher, that made an impression on you?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, there was a Miss Hyde was a favorite teacher, and Snow Bland who was married to a Jeffries was a favorite teacher. Those were two of my favorite teachers.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How many were in your graduating class?

STROM THURMOND:

I didn't graduate, I went from the tenth grade to Clemson. I was sixteen years of age at that time. They did add the eleventh grade the next year.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So you went as far as you could.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, I finished. The tenth grade was as far as they went. I could've stayed another year and attended the eleventh grade but I didn't see any need in doing that because I was accepted at Clemson in the tenth grade so I went there.

JAMES G. BANKS:

That was quite an accomplishment. Sixteen and off to Clemson. Why did you decide to go to Clemson?

STROM THURMOND:

There were only two boys that remained in school—the boys back there would stop and go to work. We started out with about ten or twelve boys I guess, and probably twice that many girls. We ended up with about almost the same number of girls finished the tenth grade, only two boys. Ralph Wood, who got a scholarship to Citadel and went there, and I went to Clemson. He later became Dr. Wood and head of the physics department at Clemson.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So we could say, since you went as far as you could go, which was the tenth grade, and then graduated. So only two . . .

STROM THURMOND:

I didn't graduate, didn't give any diplomas.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Well, but you left and only two of you left—two boys who left—one went to Citadel and you went to Clemson. Any reason for going to Clemson rather than USC?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I knew some boys around Edgefield that had gone to Clemson, and I liked them and I'd heard about Clemson. They had a good spirit at Clemson. My father that you wouldn't be tempted to run around at night—if you wanted to go to a university of some other place. In other words, it was out in the country.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Yeah, it would be. It still is kind of, I was there a couple of weeks ago—at Fort Hill there.

STROM THURMOND:

That's right, it still is. And he thought that would be a good place for me to go. Because the environment would be good, you could devote yourself to building your body and building your mind too.

JAMES G. BANKS:

It was not coeducational was it?

STROM THURMOND:

No, it wasn't. We had a Corps Cadets.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So it was compulsory ROTC?

STROM THURMOND:

Compulsory ROTC. Everybody had to be in the ROTC. I went there, fall of 1919, let's see, the war ended I believe in eighteen, so we were there; the boys coming back from the war was there. And that was a rough set too. A lot of 'em were older and they hazed terribly there you know. I've had many a broom handle broke over my rear end. [laughter]

JAMES G. BANKS:

Because you were a plebe, right?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, freshman. Then when you get to be a sophomore of course, you could haze other. But I never did care about hazing people, except I'd send 'em on errands, such as that you know. And they'd clean your rooms—just like I cleaned the others rooms.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you have a roommate at Clemson?

STROM THURMOND:

Yes I did.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Who was that, do you remember anything about him?

STROM THURMOND:

First one was R. N. Murray. I think he's here in Washington now. He left though and went to Wofford and I believe he finished at Wofford. I was just with him one year. But he didn't like the military so much, so he decided to go to And then I had—A. K. Enman, was the next roommate I believe I had. P. M. Garland was my roommate my senior year.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You got on well with all your roommates?

STROM THURMOND:

Oh yes, got along fine. P. M. Garland became a county agricultural agent. He was in Greenwood for twenty years or more. He's now living in Anderson, he's retired.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Were you a member of a fraternity?

STROM THURMOND:

Didn't have any fraternities.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What about social life?

STROM THURMOND:

Oh, we had dances about once a month. I love to dance.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Where did you meet the girls to go to the dance.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, they would come by train.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Train? [laughter]

STROM THURMOND:

They'd carry us across from old Calhoun. Calhoun was a little station over there, they changed it to Clemson—the name was Calhoun then.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Would they come from another school or college?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, they'd come from other colleges or come from cities. Some high school girls.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You didn't have any regular . . .

STROM THURMOND:

Didn't have any social life at all except when these girls were coming there.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you see anybody regularly. In other words, did you have a favorite girl friend?

STROM THURMOND:

No, I just played the field. [laughter] I had been, ever since I was big enough, I used to go to dances in Aiken. I remember one time I was going to Aiken for a dance, borrowed a car from the home demonstration agent. She said there was plenty of oil and gas and we got halfway to Aiken and the next you know, it began to knock, the oil was too low. So rather than tear it up we just stopped and walked to the nearest house to Mr. Harrison. Got him to drive us back to Edgefield—I was just about fourteen years old then. The dances we had at Edgefield—we used to go to a good many dances on weekends in surrounding towns. They all had a good time too. Everybody would be swapping—you know, you danced with different girls. You wouldn't take one girl and dance with her all night. You'd take a girl and if the boy didn't break with you wouldn't take her any more 'cause you wanted to break and have a good time with everybody.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Who did the music?

STROM THURMOND:

Well they'd have bands, good bands.

JAMES G. BANKS:

And it wasn't square dancing, this was big time stuff?

STROM THURMOND:

No, just regular dancing. Edgefield was quite a social center. It was an intellectual center—when my father grew up down there in the country—they used to have public debates down there on the issues of the day. And he got very interested you know, they had

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literary societies, things such as that, down there. And Edgefield county—I don't know—unknown that I know back there. People were so Interested in public affairs. And I was the tenth Governor—that little county produced more governors than any county in the state.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Maybe in the nation.

STROM THURMOND:

I was the tenth judge. A number of United States senators and congressmen—Preston Brooks was from there. Preston Brooks was the one that walked out on the floor of the senate over here and caned the senator of Massachusettes. He was castigating Senator Butler from Edgefield. Brooks may have been related to Butler. Anyway he walked out, and took his cane, and just knocked him to the floor.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What do you think about that?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, of course that was improper, but back then they didn't care whether it was improper or not. I mean, back in Edgefield County everybody would fight [laughter] —fighters and lovers. There were more people killed on that square right in the town of Edgefield—there must have been fifteen people killed right where you see.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Within a what, twenty year period?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, I imagine in a twenty year period. I mean they didn't bother to go in court. They'd settle their affairs out of court.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Hot blooded.

STROM THURMOND:

They were, they really were. They were that way, I don't know why it was, but it was. At any rate, the Brooks had that spirit about 'em, don't you see.

Now he was reprimanded by the House so he resigned, and went back down there and ran again, and they overwhelmingly reelected him. But he died before he ever came back.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Let me just ask you some family ties. Did you ever take a vacation together—all of you—the four kids and mom and dad?

STROM THURMOND:

We had no where to go then. My father used to take some of us on trips. I remember, as soon as they bought this Dodge automobile—about six months after they bought it—my father was going to take several children up to Asheville, North Carolina. He was District Attorney from about 1914 to 1921. And so in 1916 we planned to go in this car to Greenville, his headquarters, 'cause he had to go up every week. I'd take him up every week, it was about four o'clock in the morning driving unknown And so, he said, well we'd just go in the car that day. For some reason the car wouldn't start. And later, after he went on on the train, I got the car started, got it repaired and took my sister who was two years younger and my brother who was about three years younger that she was. And we got in that car and drove all the way to Greenville. The speed limit was about fifteen miles an hour—it took a long time to get up there. It took about six, seven hours from Edgefield to get up there. But we made it, walked in and surprised him. He didn't know we were going to come. I didn't know where to go

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but asked where the county courthouse was, went in there, and he was there. So we spent the night there, next day went on up to Asheville. And got up to Asheville, we stayed several days.

Stayed at a boarding house—they had a boarding house, then you could stay at a reasonable price. You get rooms and meals, you see. I remember we were on a streetcar up there, he told me to sit down and I sat down. But the next time we got on one I was walking around and we were going around those mountain curves and the car turned quick and I nearly fell off, but I grabbed like that—having to catch a post so I didn't fall off.

And I remember another thing he told us. We went out to Vanderbilt's Estate. They were selling ice cream and milk and everything there. We walked in, he says, "Now you're not to have any ice cream, any of you," he said, "You drink buttermilk." Well, you see Ice cream has sugar in it, travelling it's not so good, you should drink buttermilk. So we had to drink buttermilk. We all wanted ice cream but we wouldn't disobey. He was a strict disciplinarian. When he spoke we'd used to always obey him.

JAMES G. BANKS:

That was a noteworthy outing.

STROM THURMOND:

He took us to Columbia a number of times when I was a kid just big enough to hold onto his coat tail, about four years, five years old.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How would you get there?

STROM THURMOND:

Train. One time we were going down the street, and my older brother who's two years older—see we were looking at everything, we hadn't been there much. And he was holding him by one hand on the coat tails, and I was holding him on the other side by his coat tails. And I got to looking at something, and dropped my hand from his coat and before I knew it he'd gone on up yonder. Somebody else came along, I just grabbed his coat tail. [laughter] Man turned around and said, "What you want?" I looked up and said, Oh I thought you were my daddy. So I had to run way on up half a block to catch up with him.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Had he taken you up to the capital there?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah.

JAMES G. BANKS:

That's quite a sight isn't it?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, he took us up to the capital and introduced us to the judges on the Supreme Court. He's sat on the Supreme Court numbers of times as special judge. He never did care to be a regular judge but they'd call him in especially when they'd have some tough cases. Chief Justice Blease said he was the ablest lawyer that ever came before the Supreme Court.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I've heard that from a number of people. What I was going to mention about family times—was there any crisis in the family, any illness or tragedy?

STROM THURMOND:

My mother had several operations. Her health was not too good. She went to Columbia, Dr. Geary operated on her and she went to Augusta for treatment— unknown —but Geary had a famous name unknown so my father took her there.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Were you a member of FFA, 4-H, Scouts, or church groups?

STROM THURMOND:

I remember the Boy Scouts. We didn't have FFA at that time or 4-H.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You didn't have them.

STROM THURMOND:

Didn't have 'em at that time when I grew up. Now later, after I graduated from Clemson, I taught agriculture for six years and we had the Future Farmers there.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You said church was important early on there.

STROM THURMOND:

Every Sunday we went to church.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Was there Sunday School too?

STROM THURMOND:

Sunday School and preaching.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So even as, probably a five year old, you had to sit through the sermons too?

STROM THURMOND:

That's right, after we got about five we'd have to sit through the sermons.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How long was that, did you have those long sermons in those days?

STROM THURMOND:

No, well it would take about an hour, an hour and a half I guess, for the whole service. About like it does now.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So everybody went, the six children and mom and dad?

STROM THURMOND:

All six of us.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you like going to church?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, I liked it all right. Miss Cleota Tompkins who was my teacher, I remember one time she gave me a Bible, I still have it. She was a good teacher and a very sweet, kind woman. She was Cleota unknown before she married. By the way, she's an aunt of this young man, Congressman Mann's wife.

JAMES G. BANKS:

All relations. Were you active in the church group there. There was a young Baptist group or something.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, we actually called it the BYPU. Then later, after I finished with teaching school, I was active at an office of BYPU for that area, several counties around there. Later, I believe that's when I practicing law, I was superintendent of Sunday School.

JAMES G. BANKS:

And today the church is still a regular . . .

STROM THURMOND:

First Baptist Church. Except I'm a member of the First Baptist Church in Aiken now, I moved the membership. I'd rather stay at Edgefield while I was governor, I did move to Columbia, although I went to the First Baptist Church in Columbia.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Have you ever given a sermon, preached?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I don't preach a sermon, I've talked in a church. for God and Country Day and I talked. But I don't hold to be any preacher . . .

JAMES G. BANKS:

No, no, but you mentioned your mother could give a sermon as good or better than a preacher, I wondered. Did you ever think about that when you were making a decision about politics—did you ever consider the ministry as a possible career.

STROM THURMOND:

No I never did consider the ministry. I have a nephew who's kind of undecided between the ministry and medicine. He used to be an obstetrician, tremendous practice in Greenwood.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Let me back into a little bit more about your father and politics. Was politics a family thing or was it mainly your father.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, we were in politics from the time I can remember. 'Cause he was working—he was with the Tillman crowd you see. Now, he was a member of the House from 1894 to ninety six and then he became Solicitor, he was elected from 1896 to nineteen four.

JAMES G. BANKS:

This was your father now.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. He must have killed this man, I guess, about 1899.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What was that over, if I might ask.

STROM THURMOND:

The fellow grew up in the same part of the county, way down there where you came from.

JAMES G. BANKS:

In Edgefield.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. And, I don't know what he was drinking but anyway, he was threatening and they got in a fight. Fellow Harris. I think he followed around my father's horse, and my father was trying to get away from him. But the fellow was just determined to cause trouble, following him around. But I think he grew up down in that same area down there where my father lived and was probably a little jealous of him, I was told. 'Cause my father had done well you know, in law.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Were you aware of what your father did for a living, did he tell you or did you ask him?

STROM THURMOND:

He told me later, about having to kill the man, after I was older.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What I meant is, some kids today don't really know what their father does, the father goes away and comes home. Did you know that your father was an attorney and in politics?

STROM THURMOND:

I knew what he did, yeah. 'Cause I would be with him.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You always went with him.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. In other words, we'd go up to the office practically every day and sometimes he'd send us on missions and things, you know, just to do. And then during court time we'd go up and hear the cases tried.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Can you remember at what age that you might have thought that you would pursue a political career.

STROM THURMOND:

Well all along I thought I might get into politics. But in 1912 when Jones and Blease ran and I saw Blease castigate Jones unnecessarily without reason and degrade him, I made up my mind then I was going to run for governor some day.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Well, I guess you did. Because of the abuse?

STROM THURMOND:

And I made up mind I was going to learn to speak and never let a man do me like that. [laughter]

JAMES G. BANKS:

Because that's how—Blease just snowed him over didn't he. I can appreciate that. Did you say to yourself I could do that good myself.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, Jones, he made a good talk, a literary talk. But he just didn't stir the people. And Blease did. I was ten years old then.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Later on when your father was still living, did you ever ask him for advice as to what you should do?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you ever have a disagreement with him, politically?

STROM THURMOND:

No, I don't think so, politically, we were pretty well together.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you ever have a disagreement with him when you were older.

STROM THURMOND:

Well we may not have agreed on everything. He—law is a tough task master. When I thought about studying law, he just wanted me to think it over well and be sure. Since I went to Clemson and they taught agriculture and to live out in the open—he thought that was a good life for a person. 'Cause he's pinned down to an office and he said, you'd better think it over well. But I'd about made up my mind when I was grown up I was going to be a lawyer. But I just went to Clemson because so many other Edgefield boys I liked went there. And then I got interested in teaching—it's a great challenge to teach school. He taught school himself. And anyway

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]

JAMES G. BANKS:

You mean in a day you would do that?

STROM THURMOND:

Oh, not at the same time, no.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Oh, you'd teach awhile, a couple of years.

STROM THURMOND:

I was in the McCormick just one year. And Ridge Spring only one year. And then I decided to go back home because I thought I'd study law and wanted to be around my father. And then of course, football and basketball.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I meant to ask you, when you were up there at Clemson, what sports did you play up there?

STROM THURMOND:

I played company football and basketball, but my main varsity sport was track and cross country.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Is that where you developed your interest in jogging and running?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. We ran, one time at the end of the cross country season in 1922, there were five of us decided to see if we could run twenty miles. That was before they straightened the road from Clemson to Anderson. It was up hill and down hill and not paved until we got two miles from Anderson, it was paved.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So you ran from Clemson to Anderson, which was twenty miles.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, twenty miles, all of us made it.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Who was first?

STROM THURMOND:

Well we didn't run, we weren't competing. Just to see if we could do it. I remember I had shoes that were a little too big—they were new shoes. I never should've done that, that taught me a lesson. They were a little too big and they rubbed my toes but if I stopped I wouldn't have accomplished what I wanted to so I kept on.

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And I rubbed—every toenail came off, it rubbed so. About two miles from Anderson when we got in there, we hit this pavement. Every time you put your feet down it'd feel like you were driving—'course those kind of shoes then were not the kind—they got good jogging shoes now. I jog on the pavement. But back then they just would wear plain tennis shoes. And every time you'd put your foot down it'd feel like you were driving a nail right in your leg. Those last two miles . . .

JAMES G. BANKS:

You ran though before 1920. Did you run around Edgefield, jogging?

STROM THURMOND:

Not very much, no. I played football at school, but there wasn't any running then much. They did have some track events there, but I didn't take much interest, I liked football at that time. But I wasn't heavy enough hardly at Clemson to make the team up there.

JAMES G. BANKS:

At Clemson you were on the track team. Did you set any records there?

STROM THURMOND:

No.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Mostly a long distance runner?

STROM THURMOND:

Long distance—two miles in track and then three and five miles in cross country.

JAMES G. BANKS:

The loneliness of the long distance runner, you probably know about that—always out in front. When did the concept of diet begin to take more and more of a hold. Or was it always because of living in the natural setting.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I think there was always a certain—because my father kind of set an example by eating vegetables and fruits and eating whole grains. Oatmeal, wheat—in other words he advised eating whole grains.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Let me ask you about when you were a boy and also through college, some of the reading habits that you had. As a boy, what stories did you read or were read to you and what authors and what subjects interested you most when you were growing up?

STROM THURMOND:

Well I read the usual books that were available then, stories, and novels, and Huckleberry Finn, stories of that kind.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Is Mark Twain one of your favorite authors?

STROM THURMOND:

Mark Twain, yeah.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What do you read today?

STROM THURMOND:

I don't read any books, today I don't have the time. I've got to get others to read books and report to me on 'em.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Do you read any magazines today?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, I generally read U.S. News and World Report and get others to report to me on some of the other magazines.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What about what we might call relaxing.

STROM THURMOND:

Now at Clemson I always made it a point to read a good daily paper every day. And they got the State up there and so I read that.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Oh, Columbia State.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. Because that covered where I lived at Edgefield and I was accustomed to reading that paper. I started reading that paper when I was six years old.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Today, do you do any television watching?

STROM THURMOND:

Don't have time much. I listen to the radio while I'm exercising and dressing. Occasionally I watch the T.V. but not very often.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Nothing regular, six thirty news or something?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, something like that if I'm home.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You don't play an instrument do you?

STROM THURMOND:

No.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Sing?

STROM THURMOND:

No.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What do you do to relax, I mean, you have to relax sometime.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I don't really do anything relaxing. I run, but that's in the mornings.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I mean, do you and Mrs. Thurmond and the kids just go somewhere?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I take a massage or sit in the bath. I try to do it normally, I can't do it this year—I'm so busy. Once a week, we adjourn, I try to get a massage once a week, sit in the bath. But the jogging and exercising keeps you in pretty good shape. See, I do about twenty minutes of calisthenics every morning. Twisting, bending, pull ups, kick ups, and things of that kind. And then lift weight five minutes, and then run two and a half, three miles. I ran three and a quarter miles this morning. I generally run from two and a half to three and a half.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Every day, seven days a week.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, every day, unless there's something that comes up. I mean, you might be out late some night, one or two o'clock and have an early appointment. Now tomorrow morning I may not run because I promised to jog with some people in Spartenburg tomorrow afternoon at 6:00.

JAMES G. BANKS:

A.M.?

STROM THURMOND:

Spartenburg, South Carolina.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Yeah, what time are you going to be there?

STROM THURMOND:

Six o'clock tomorrow afternoon. I'm going to leave here about four something to go to Spartenburg. They just wanted to jog with me, some at the Y.M.C.A. down there.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Good. Can you describe when you were studying for law. You didn't go to law school did you?

STROM THURMOND:

No, I studied under my father.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How did you do that, he would just tell you what to read?

STROM THURMOND:

Well the Supreme Court proscribed—the other courts would have to read them. So I got those books, my father had most of 'em, so I got those books and read 'em. Then, if I came across something that I didn't quickly understand, instead of having to go and look it up and wasting time, I'd just ask him and he could answer like that. [snaps his fingers] See, I had a three year law course in one year.

JAMES G. BANKS:

But you read three years . . .

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I'd hang around the court room a lot. And I had been—before I took the bar—I furnished my own office as Superintendent of Education. I moved down next to his law office, right next door to before I was admitted to the bar. In fact I tried three cases before I was admitted to the bar.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You could do that?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I had to get permission.

JAMES G. BANKS:

From the judge.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. He had a heart attack and couldn't argue a case in the Supreme Court. And Chief Justice Blease gave him permission for me to argue the case for him. It was a case about illegitimates, with so, I won the case.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You won the case?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. That was before I was admitted to the bar. Let's see, I was admitted in 1930, so this must have been about 1929 I guess.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How was that test administered, to the bar?

STROM THURMOND:

Well you stand three days. You have three different examiners—each one examines you for a day on certain subjects and the other ones on other subjects.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Was this an oral exam?

STROM THURMOND:

No, it was written. And the next case was in the Surrogate Court, that's the highest trial court in the common. A man was killed at a railroad crossing, pressed a charge. My father had the case, and he had another heart attack and couldn't try that. So I tried that particular one too. I had learned to try cases pretty well from just watching him try cases, see, over the years.

In the third case—I started at the Supreme Court and came on down. The third case was in Greenville—the man was charged with having a hog with cholera—in the Magistrate's Court. So I went up to defend him, didn't charge him anything—he was from Edgefield and a friend of

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mine. Well he didn't know if he had cholera, but he did have cholera, so the veterinarian said.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Oh, who had this disease.

STROM THURMOND:

A fellow Wood was charged with selling hogs with cholera. That's against the law you see. Except what the law says, who knowingly does. Well, he said he didn't know and argued before the jury. I remember Dr. Barnett who was the father of some Barnett boys in Greenville, a good friend of mine now, was a veterinarian. He testified that they had cholera. And I remember I had taught agriculture and I knew something about those things. And I had good many bulletins from Clemson on various subjects. I asked him if he was familiar with a certain man who taught at Clemson and who was an expert on this subject. He said, yeah. I said, would you mind taking this bulletin here and read what it says about hog cholera. And I had marked the portions and its says the only way you can definitely if a hog has cholera—'course there are other symptoms—the only way you can definitely tell for sure, is to make a post mortem. So I had him read that to the jury. And then I said, now did you make a post mortem. He said, No. I said, well then you couldn't definitely tell then. At any rate, we cleared the man.

JAMES G. BANKS:

About the military, when did you first become interested in a military career?

STROM THURMOND:

Clemson. I was offered a commission in the army I believe when I finished. But I didn't take it, I was put in the commission in the reserve. unknown one of my classmates went in the regular army.

JAMES G. BANKS:

So you were in the reserves?

STROM THURMOND:

I was in the reserves.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Any relationship between Edgefield and it's prominent people—military has anything to do with that?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, they're rather military minded, and defense minded, we always have been.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I also think maybe the war would have something to do with that.

STROM THURMOND:

That's right, World War I.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Well, and even the Confederate war, reconstruction, that was a tough chapter there.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, that's right. Oh yeah. Every year Miss Woodson would come to the school and conduct exercises and tell all about the Confederate war. That it was fought not over slavery, it was fought on the right to secede—the state's had to join the union voluntarily, they had the right to secede voluntarily. Which seemed to make sense, you know. [laughter] But force held it didn't.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I've got a couple of questions on that later on. I just wanted to get this one point about your military career. Have you ever thought of a career in military service, you know a regular army rather than, say, politics?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I considered it when I was a senior in college. But I decided I'd rather just take the commission in reserve and be available if war ever came rather than go in full time military. Because I could make more money in civilian life, and I felt I could show more initiative. It took ten years then to go from second to a first lieutenant. I mean, it wasn't enough incentive there, if you

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worked hard you still didn't get there any faster. And I felt that I wanted to get somewhere where if I worked hard I could rise faster.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You married rather late.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Why.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, my father died in 1934 and my mother lived on and didn't die until 1958. After he died my sister was there teaching school.

JAMES G. BANKS:

This is your older sister?

STROM THURMOND:

No, the younger sister, Mary Tompkins. She married Mr. Tompkins and they lived on in the house, the home house, and my mother lived there with them. Later she moved over into town. But at any rate, I guess, having a mother and a sister to kind of look after that part of that—meals and such as that. And then, I could go and come. And another thing, I wouldn't be tied down, because I felt sooner or later I'd go into politics. I started making contacts when I was teaching school, I felt sooner or later I'd end up in statewide politics. So I could make more contacts—if I'd had a wife it'd hold you back. Have to come home every night, or you'd have to be in by a certain time, take your wife out. And whereas I felt being unfettered that I could make my own schedule wouldn't inconvenience anybody. But then after I got to be governor why—in other words I had gotten there then so it was feasible.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You'd arrived, right.

STROM THURMOND:

[laughter] And so I felt I could take time to get married.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you almost—this is maybe asking too much—but did you say, well, it's time to get married. Almost like that?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. I'd sort of like to get married and have a family. But I didn't have any children by my first wife.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Who would've been the most important women in your life. Have there been some dominant women?

STROM THURMOND:

I guess your mother probably, of course, is the most important. I think another important lady was Miss Gloria Tompkins I mentioned who was my Sunday School teacher when I was a kid. Another was Miss Mamie Tillman who was wife of Jim Tillman who lieutenant governor who killed Gonzales.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Mamie Norris Tillman, is that who that is?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. She was very active in matters. She was so interested in history, and always interested in people. And I admired her very much because of her public spiritedness in the community. And then, my wives.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Your first political office, if we want to call it political, was Superintendent of Education, because you were elected to that.

STROM THURMOND:

I had to run for that, yeah. Mr. Fuller was the man I opposed.

JAMES G. BANKS:

What goals did you have as Superintendent of Education. Because you had been a teacher.

STROM THURMOND:

Well he had run the country way in debt and I was always a believer in fiscal responsible. And he ran the county in debt and they didn't put on the taxes to pay it. That was one thing. The other thing was, I wanted to instill a course in health for the children of the county—teach 'em a course in health. I felt

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that's the basis of everything, if you don't have a healthy body you can't do anything. Then we wanted to instill a course in character for students. And during that four years I was superintendent we were able to get the dentists to volunteer their services and examine all the school children free. It turned out that they got a lot of business from it, because they found so many cavities and things like that. But that's all right, I wanted 'em examined to point out defects. Then we had the doctors to examine all the children. And we sent a card home showing if they needed dental treatment—I had cards printed up—or if they had anything wrong with 'em physically.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Of course the schools then were segregated weren't they?

STROM THURMOND:

They were segregated, that's right.

JAMES G. BANKS:

But everybody got to see the doctor?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, and that was a big thing for those children, it was a big help to 'em. It was something that had never been done before.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Well, black kids as well as white kids I would expect, never had that service.

STROM THURMOND:

That's right. So, then when I was teaching I had gotten up farm boys to take off to a summer school that I had charge of 1925, '26, '27, and '28. And they were not able to pay their way—it was only twelve dollars for a month—but about half of 'em weren't able to pay that. So I went to the Lion's Club and I went to the churches and I got them to raise some money for scholarships for these boys. That helped me politically. [laughter] But it was a worthy

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cause, I wanted to do it to help the boys, and incidentally it did help me.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Was that really a conscious step, I'm going to run for County Superintendent?

STROM THURMOND:

No, I wasn't sure I was going to run for County Superintendent then.

JAMES G. BANKS:

But it was a good political base.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I wanted to help those rural children that needed that help. At the same time I was keeping in mind that some day I probably would run, but I didn't know when. And when I decided to take law, the superintendent's place was a place that I could kind of arrange—that I could study at night and be at home with my father and do some things for the schools I wanted to do anyway. Of course having been a teacher I saw the need of a lot of these things. And so it just fitted ideally. I kind of hated to run against old man Fuller. But he'd been there a long time, all he did was hunt. He didn't do anything to improve the schools much. And there were so many things I saw that could be done.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you have to raise the property tax a little bit, a special bond?

STROM THURMOND:

We did raise it. Because I called in the trustees and I said, now here last year, why you spent so much and your income was only so much. They said, well Mr. Fuller said we could do it. I said, you just can't do that, we've got to balance this budget and we've got to raise taxes. We did raise taxes and paid off that debt. And when I left I left with a surplus. I left a surplus there and

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then I went to the state senate and I put the county on the county unit system so that the towns with the railroads would have to help out these country communities who had four times or more as much mileage as the towns did, to run the schools. Because they're poor country districts, no railroads, no industry, no anything.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Well, Edgefield was like that wasn't it?

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah. Put the whole thing on the county unit system, put on a uniform tax on all of 'em, and give 'em all the same education. And that helped the poor, you can tell that.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I want to ask you a question about your self concept, self image. Do you see yourself as a self made man.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, no necessarily. Because I had a good father and a good mother.

JAMES G. BANKS:

A good start.

STROM THURMOND:

Yeah, a very good start.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Of course you're from Edgefield remember. That counts for something, doesn't it.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I think I would have done it without them, frankly. But they were encouragement. I'm confident that I would've gone and got a college education if both of them had been killed in a wreck. Because I had it instilled in me by them that if you're going to do anything worthwhile you've got to have an education.

JAMES G. BANKS:

You had saved some money too, right—for it?

STROM THURMOND:

By the time I'd finished the sixth grade, from the cows I had raised and the pigs I had raised and the trading—I was

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quite a trader—horses and everything. I had saved six hundred dollars.

JAMES G. BANKS:

When you were in the sixth grade?

STROM THURMOND:

No, by the time I finished the tenth grade I had saved six hundred dollars.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Of your own money?

STROM THURMOND:

That's right. Six hundred dollars then, would be worth about six thousand dollars today. But when I went to college my father paid my actual expenses. The money I had saved—I had a little savings if I wanted to do things for myself.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Does the word ambitious bother you? They say, he's ambitious, does that word bother you?

STROM THURMOND:

No, I admire anybody who's ambitious, wants to get ahead.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Drive?

STROM THURMOND:

You don't get anywhere unless you're ambitious and willing to work I don't think.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Would you describe yourself as confident? Self assured?

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I'm pretty confident. I've always felt if anybody else could do it, I could do it.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Do you have any goals or did you have any goals, for example, to be at a certain point in your life by a certain age?

STROM THURMOND:

Not exactly. Because when I was a state senator, I still had in mind—I had made up my mind when I was ten years old to run for governnor—I wanted to be governor. And then I'd see what worked out from there, and if I'd come to the senate it was possible

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to do so. But Judge Ramage died and I had in mind maybe that after being governor, if I didn't come to the senate I could be a judge.

JAMES G. BANKS:

State judge?

STROM THURMOND:

Circuit judge, the highest trial court the Supreme Court. I liked the trial work better than the work actually, stronger courtroom is so interesting. At any rate, Judge Rames died and I didn't know just what the situation would be later about running for governor and I decided I'd better go on and take that judgeship and try to do a good job with that. And I was taking the rotating—in the summer time you're in your home district, fall, another district, spring, another district. You cover two circuits a year besides your own, every year. Takes six and a half years to cover the state. I decided I'd better take that and try to do a good job at it and then I'd make friends going around travelling as a judge over the state, and that would be a good foundation if I cared to resign and later enter politics for governor or the United States Senate. I didn't especially care about going to the Congress, you have to run every two years. So I took that, and I stayed on there—let's see, I was elected in thirty eight, stayed on there 'till the war came. I volunteered the first attack against Germany and went in several months later, as soon as they would take me. Then came back, went back on the bench in October, forty five and then resigned April the fifteenth, forty six, to run for governor. So it worked out very well because—some people would've got on that bench and sat there because it was a soft job. It was the easiest, nicest job I ever had, just from the

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standpoint of health, and respect—everybody respected you, looks up to you.

JAMES G. BANKS:

And fairly good income.

STROM THURMOND:

And good income. And I could've gone on to the Supreme Court if I'd wanted to, I'm sure. But I resigned and took the tough course to run for governor because I felt the state needed some reforms. Managed to take the unknown and power away from the governor and do a lot of things. We can give you a copy of things we've accomplished when I was governor if you want.

JAMES G. BANKS:

I would. Would you say now, as you look back, you've accomplished all that you've really set out to do. I mean, you're sitting there, and that's where you wanted to sit.

STROM THURMOND:

Well, I don't know that. [laughter] It's kind of hard to say that. Well, I ran for president in 1948. And the reasons I ran for president, I just got sick and tired of seeing more power being centralized here in Washington. Truman was advocating this unreasonable Civil Rights program, and I've never been against blacks, but he was just catering to that group to win votes. And he was advocating a law against lynching. Well lynching is nothing but murder and every state has laws in the murder. And he was advocating passing a law to repeal the poll taxes as prerequisite for voting. Well, I had always advocated that as governor, my first year, and gotten it repealed it down there. Congress never did pass a law to repeal the poll tax. Later, ten years after we'd done it in South Carolina, or maybe ten years after I came here, Harlan introduced a constitutional amendment. That's the proper way to do it—contitutional amendment to repeal the poll taxes as prerequisite to voting. And that

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was done. But when I was governor we were way ahead of 'em on so many progressive things. But as I said, Truman was advocating things—he was trying to do by statue what should have been done by amending the constitution. And then advocating so many other things too that were unreasonable and centralizing power in Washington. I've always been afraid of federal power. Or too much power in any one place. Because it ultimately brings tyranny. And ultimately can result in totalitarianism if it's carried far enough. I've always believed in the rights of the states to run their own affairs.

JAMES G. BANKS:

Did you ever speculate on what, if you had been elected president in 1948?

STROM THURMOND:

I think the country would be different today.

JAMES G. BANKS:

How would it be different?

STROM THURMOND:

I think we could have reversed the trend of centralizing more power in Washington. The feder