[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

ASA T. SPAULDING:

You take a look at that. I don't know whether you've come across that kind of information anywhere or not. [pause] .

WALTER WEARE:

I've never seen this.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

And I have excerpts from his will, where it's recorded and everything.

WALTER WEARE:

Annabell, who he's talking about, is his sister, Debra. She's my mother's sister; Annabell was my mother.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That goes all the way.

WALTER WEARE:

So what relationship would that make your mother, then, to Henry Berry Lowery?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't know. [unclear] for three hundred years. No, two hundred years. No,Henry Berry was… he may have been her uncle.

WALTER WEARE:

I believe the figure he was talking about was legendary in the county….

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh yeah. Well, he was not only legendary; he was a real person. But there was a lot of legend around him. And he is writing a book, around this whole Lowery family. He (Dr. Earl Lowery) was in Roberson County at a funeral, of my mother's oldest and last-living brother. And he was there for the funeral and he got to talking. And he was telling about he was working on a book. I told him when he was finished with it, I wanted to get a copy of it, because I wanted to trace my family connections.

WALTER WEARE:

Does the Lowery family see itself as Indian on black, or a combination of the two?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. They didn't ever consider themselves black. As a matter of fact, that's why they have their own separate school. Even way back when they had segregated travelling on the trains, they always sat in

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the white section. Never.

WALTER WEARE:

So they declared themselves Indians. Your mother, then, saw herself as Indian?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, she was one of them, and yet she married my father, who was about my color. But the way she got into Columbus County was: her first husband was A. McL. Moore. He was one of the Moores from down there. And he was a preacher. And I understand he was quite a speaker. And they used to invite him up there (Pembroke) to preach, at the churches. And that's where he met her. And they married, and he brought her back to Columbus County. Later he died. And my father was her second husband. And there was quite an age differential between her and him (twelve years). She was 100 year old—would have been a hundred-and-one if she'd lived three more months— when she passed in 1965.

WALTER WEARE:

Your mother?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes.

WALTER WEARE:

When did she pass?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

In nineteen and 65. I have that information somewhere. But it's been within the last 14 years. My father was eighty— he was always overweight— when he died in February, 1956.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you remember your mother telling, then, about this Lowery family?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, I visited Roberson County with her.

WALTER WEARE:

But when you were growing up, would she tell you about them?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. Well, you know, there's one thing about them—I guess the Indian characteristic— they didn't talk much.

WALTER WEARE:

When you were growing up, were you aware, though, that she was Indian?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, yes. Because…is this on?

WALTER WEARE:

Yes.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, put it off for the time being [Laughter] . [interruption] [explanation by Walter Weare of identification of tapes, and of interview process using tape recorder.]

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I have so many pictures that are really of historical value, with no dates, or no places on them. Because I did not, at that time, ever think that I would want them to refer to for any particular reason. And now that's very important. Because, in my autobiography, if you take pictures, people have to know: when, why, where, who. And while I knew the people at the time, and all, some of them have been so long, that their faces are not so sure. And when you meet so many people in so many different parts of the world, it's hard to reconstruct them after twenty-five, thirty, or forty years.

WALTER WEARE:

You have photographs of your family going way back?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. Of people along my way, where I've been, and people I've met. Just like Chief Justice Warren, when I presented him to receive the citation from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. I remember it happened, and I think it was at the New York Hilton. But I'm not sure. And then others, in the city, and you'd go through the [unclear] . Way back. Have a lot of pictures in there. I can identify most of them, even before then. That was probably in the nineteen fifties. When I became a trustee of Shaw University, succeeding C.C. Spaulding, not too long after that, I started looking around to see what I could do to make a contribution, other than being a trustee, to the development of the student fund. Most of them (students) were from the rural areas of North Carolina. Limited exposures. And the thing that caused it to mean so much to me: it was my exposures that were liberating experiences for me, through which I

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learned how large the world is, and start the people in it. And why so many prejudices were in the white man. So many of them didn't get out of their own state; didn't know what was going on in other parts of the world. Some, you know, of the elite and all did; but the others didn't. It's the masses of the people where your problems are. I won't say not any of them had them, too, but they had more of them to contend with. So I started a discussion with the president. And I had good white contacts at that time—not only on the state, but also the national and international level. They were corporate heads. If he was interested, I'd be glad to extend invitations to some of my acquaintances to appear there and speak to the student body. And have a question-and-answer period following that. In other words, the idea was to open the windows of their minds to the outside world, and what was taking place in it. So I had people from the state; I had people from other parts of the country; had ambassadors there; had cabinet officers there. So they got a cross-section of world-happening events and people [unclear] And I guess in an eleven-year period, I had over a hundred people of that type. I remember when I had the chief executive officer of Continental Oil Company to come there. He had never spoken to a black audience before. I was able to get him [unclear] . His public relations man came ahead of him, and spent a day-and-a-half over there on the campus, sizing it up, talking with the faculty, talking with the students, and getting some ground-work. So he could go back and report to him, you know, as to where he was going and what he would find, and so forth. And he came over there to see me, and asked me a lot a questions. He said, "Mr. Spaulding, you mind me asking you a personal question?" I said, "No." He said, "How were you able to get Mr. McCollum to come and speak?"

WALTER WEARE:

This is the man from Continental Oil?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes. See, because he came over on his own private plane, with communications. As a matter of fact, he could fly to different parts of the world and conduct exec. committee meetings from his plane. They'd be meeting in Houston, and he'd be presiding on his plane [Laughter] . He was that kind of a person. Because he said, "Shaw?" He hadn't heard of Shaw before, his corporation. It was a black school.

And he wanted to know who I'd got to get him. I said, "Nobody. I wrote him a letter, extending an invitation, and he accepted it." That was just a mystery to him. Well, he came. He made a good speech. He was well received. Had a question-and-answer period. And I know it was a refreshing experience to him, because, you know, when you do something that you've never done before, and you feel like that, that it's out of the common. I look upon it as a soul refreshing experience to have. You know, it broadens you. It's a new facet of your life. And that's the way it seemed to him. And after that, a very warm relationship came between him and me until the time that he retired. I had Christian A. Herter, who was Under-Secretary of state. I had Andrew Brimmer, first black member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. I had a good mixture of black an white

WALTER WEARE:

This ability you spoke of, that it was not unusual for you to be working with blacks and whites. It was not a new experience for you. And you related that that might have something to do with your background in Columbus County—your father and the hunting camps. Do you think that's so?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I'm sure it did. As I look back, see, they were building blocks and I didn't know it. And one thing led to another. And the opening of one door led to another. When I first started, and the type of people that I got there, it became easier and easier for me to get top-flight people to accept invitations. Because, when they were told what

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I was doing—in my letter of invitation I would send a list of the people who already had appeared. This man talks about the strategy of success. I didn't think of it in terms of a strategy, but as I look back upon it, and after this chapter that you wrote on it, I said, this has been a part of a strategy of success, bringing the caliber of people to Shaw University I was able to bring there. And the presidents of these other universities would ask the president of Shaw what kind of a budget he had for speakers there. And they couldn't believe it when he told them it didn't cost the University a dime. Never did we have to pay any of those people

WALTER WEARE:

Shaw, now, was a Baptist institution?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes.

WALTER WEARE:

And all the Spaulding family was Baptist?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, some were Methodist. I came up as a Methodist until I came to Durham. I was a Methodist until I was sixteen. And Dr. Moore, the one who was responsible for me coming to Durham, was Baptist, and superintendent of the White Rock Baptist Sunday school. Lived next door to the church. After I left Columbus County, he was my "other father." Because I never did live in Columbus County any more, except the year that I went back there to serve as principal of the school. I was on my own from sixteen.

WALTER WEARE:

You left there at age sixteen? And what year were you born?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

1902.

WALTER WEARE:

So you left there….

ASA T. SPAULDING:

October the first, 1918. I remember it so vividly. Because I was going further from home than I'd ever been before.

WALTER WEARE:

And you spent these first sixteen years, then, mostly working on the farm. Tell me a little bit about the school.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

It was a one-room school. And all classes, study-hall and

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everything, took place in the same room.

WALTER WEARE:

And the term was built around the harvest season?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

The harvest.

WALTER WEARE:

How many days would you actually attend school?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, I think it opend around the first of October, and it actually ran through February. But at the time they didn't have the requirements that until you were sixteen you had to attend school. So, you didn't go full-time until you finished harvesting your crops. Or, you might go a certain number of days. And if there were something that had to be done on the farm, you stayed out and did it.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you remember the teacher? Do you remember the name?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes. I had several. One was Jonathan Spaulding; another was Josephine Spaulding; a little later, Josephine Freeman; another was L.L. Spaulding. He finally became a professor of Johnson C. Smith University in Charlotte.

WALTER WEARE:

It sounds like there were as many men as women. Was that unusual then? I tend to think of elementary school teachers as always being women.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, not there. Because it was a matter of the people who went away and got their education.

WALTER WEARE:

And Dr. Moore came back and taught, didn't he? Was that kind of a tradition, to go away….?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't think he taught there. He came back every year and spoke at the school, to the students. That's where he inspired me. He and C.C. Spaulding would come there every year and speak at the school there, and at the churches.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you think that there were more men teaching at the elementary level, than one might expect, have something to do with there not being economic opportunities for black men in the larger world?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That might have been. But they did have women, though, when I went back there. I had three teachers and they were all women. I was principal of the women teachers.

WALTER WEARE:

The teachers tended to come right from that community?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

One came from Clarkton, which was about six miles from the schoolhouse. And the furthest away, a lady, Spencer—I've forgotten her first name—came from Lumberton, I believe it was.

WALTER WEARE:

Now this community was essentially rural. There were two towns there, Whiteville?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Whiteville was the county seat in Columbus County. Clarkton was in Bladen County. But it was only nine miles from this community. You see, Whiteville was on the southern tip of the community; Clarkton was on the northwestern tip. Rosendale, which was no more than a railroad station, was directly north of where I lived. Whiteville was directly south.

WALTER WEARE:

Was there a name for this rural community? Was it distinctive in the sense that it had a name that you'd know it when you got to it?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, it was more or less the Spaulding and Moore area. In the earliest part of the ancestry, those were the names, but others began to come in. You see, what happened, just like my mother got down there, you see. The movement in those early years, even before slavery—in other words, they're not nomads as such, but people who were drifting down? Just like in Europe, you know, when certain tribes, or certain groups would come in as invaders and all. So where the people from Roberson County go down there. My mother was the first one to come into that community.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you know anything about the community before she got there?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, I don't know. Because, see, I wasn't born. Where you heard more conversation would be at church after service. People would

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gather around the church yard and talk. That's where you had your social life, you know. You were working all day on the farm, every day of the week. Except my father had a habit. And he would get in his horse and buggy and drove from place to place, talking.

WALTER WEARE:

To visit?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

To visit. He would look forward to that, and they'd look forward to his coming, to break the monotony.

WALTER WEARE:

Was that his tradition that he created?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, it was traditional with him. I don't remember anyone else who'd do it.

WALTER WEARE:

Not associated with the church?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Just friends, you know. Some were of the Methodist Church and some of the Baptist Church. Had two of them there. We would go to the Methodist Church every Sunday, except the fourth Sunday. On the fourth Sunday, we'd go to the Baptist Church for Sunday school, and for preaching services, we'd go to the Baptist Church. Because the preacher would come down from Lumberton and preach at the Baptist Church on the fourth Sunday of the month. And they, the Baptists, would come to the Rehobeth Church, which was a Methodist Church, the first Sunday, when they had their preacher. See, the preachers at that time had four churches. One on the first Sunday, the other on the second, and around, make the circuit.

WALTER WEARE:

A circuit-riding preacher.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That's right. That was in the early nineteen hundreds.

WALTER WEARE:

Is this one of your earliest memories, going to church, or being with your father on these buggy rides?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, there's a little trick I played on him. I don't remember what year it was, but I guess I was about eight. This particular

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day I hitched the horse up for him, you know, to the buggy. And he got in the buggy. I wanted to go with him, and he said I couldn't go. The buggy had a little covered area behind the seat, you know, where you put groceries and things in there, with a lid over it. I pushed that up and sat in that buggy. And he was driving along, and he didn't know I was with him. He got almost to the first stop where they had a fence with an entrance gate that you [unclear] to open to get into this home. And I knew it had to be opened. Before he got out to open it, I stood up behind him. I said, "I'm here. I'll open the gate for you." [Laughter] He was so outdone he didn't know what to do.

WALTER WEARE:

He forgave you for that?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

He forgave me. And I rode with him the rest of the round. That's one of my earliest experiences of that type of thing.

WALTER WEARE:

What age were you when you started school? Did children start at a particular age?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, no earlier than six.

WALTER WEARE:

Were children assigned duties already, on the farm?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, well, that's one thing about rural life, you know. You have a greater sense of responsibility on the farms at an early age than anywhere else. I notice they mature earlier, and they have a sense of responsibility. They can take on and do things that I didn't find taking place when I first came to Durham.

WALTER WEARE:

Can you remember the first chores you had?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, get up in the morning and feed the mules and horses. Get up around five o'clock and go out and give them their breakfast: the corn and the fodder, whatever, and see that water was drawn for them. That starts early. Then the matter of getting wood in. We cooked with wood and heated with wood, which would come off the land there. It was divided amongst

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the different ones according to their age.

WALTER WEARE:

How many children were in your family?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Five. Three boys and two girls.

WALTER WEARE:

Where did you rank in age?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I was the third. I had an older sister and brother, and a younger brother and sister. I was the middle.

WALTER WEARE:

We might want to talk about them later, but I want to pursue this matter of life on the farm a little bit. What kind of crops?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

We raised corn, cotton, tobacco, hay, that we'd feed the cattle with. We'd plant a cover crop. We'd plant oats and peas. You'd sow these peas, you know, and cut the vines.

WALTER WEARE:

Field peas?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes, field peas. And of course truck gardens. We had everything that you eat. All the vegetables. We raised our own hogs. Another chore was feeding the hogs. One of the boys was responsible for seeing the hogs were fed. Another of us would see that the mules and horses were fed. We always had two mules and a horse, at least two mules. And, of course, the cattle had to be cared for, and water drawn, you know.

WALTER WEARE:

And what about your sisters? Was there a division of labor?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

They helped in the house.

WALTER WEARE:

Would your mother assign their duties, and your father assign the duties for the boys?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, I guess it kind of just grew up. Well, he would tell who would be responsible for the mules and horses. There was a division of labor. Well, see, the mother and sisters would help. At that time you had to chop cotton. Both thinning the cotton out as well as keeping the grass out of the crop. It was interesting when I went to Central America the first time,

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and those Central American countries, and see how they were farming. Even there reminded me of India. You know, they didn't have the plows that would turn it. So it was interesting to see the development. I remember when we got our first Oliver Plow.

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Did you have when I was born on there?

WALTER WEARE:

Yes, 1902. And we were talking, I think, about the grade-school experience, and life on the farm. And you were talking about your mathematical skills and you developed that: in part from being in school, but also from your father's general store. You worked parttime in the general store; you worked on the farm; and you're also going to school. What age did you begin having these three roles?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, my role at the chores around the home, I'm sure, started as early as six years of age. When we were responsible for feeding the mules and the horse—always had at least one horse—and the cattle. We raised cattle enough to provide beef as well as milk. And my mother always had a garden, and she liked flowers in the yard. She had some very beautiful flowers, all kinds. And also I remember having in the yard a big pear tree. And I've never seen a pear tree more heavily laden, sometimes so much that the weight of the fruit would break the limbs. And, of course, pumpkins, and Kershaw. I don't see any of them now.

WALTER WEARE:

A kind of melon?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yeah. But all of the different fruits and vegetables.

WALTER WEARE:

Did you raise enough of this to sell, or was it just for your own?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Our own consumption; and share with neighbors.

WALTER WEARE:

Did your mother and sisters preserve this food?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, yes. She liked to preserve. And another thing, she liked to quilt. It's something maybe some people in this generation don't know what you mean by quilting. But they would have their frames, you know, and quilting. And sometimes they'd have neighborhood quiltings, where there was a rectangular or square frame. They would get the cloth they were using, or scraps, whatever it was, that they would baste to it, and use on top. And different ones would be on different sides, and they would meet in the middle, or start in the middle, I don't know which. But anyway you would be stitching. And all of them beautiful quilts, different colors, because of the different scraps they would be using. I remember that all the quilts that we used were homemade. When we left to go away to school, she'd give us a quilt to take with us.

WALTER WEARE:

Was this a form of entertainment, in part, as well as a necessity?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

It was a hobby with them. It was both useful—it had utility and value—as well as hobby. She would give a quilt away. Another way of how farm people entertained themselves: I remember they used to have corn shuckings. After the corn was gathered and put in the barn, or piled in piles before it was in the barns, the neighbors would come. And, of course, you'd have a feast. You'd feed them. And then they'd go out there that evening and have the corn shuckings. They'd shuck the corn in the barns. People looked forward to it.

WALTER WEARE:

Would men do the shucking?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Men and women. It was just a neighborhood thing, that people would come together and enjoy themselves helping each other. This matter of neighborliness is another thing. They were accommodating. They didn't look for pay. And I remember for years, when people from Durham would

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come down there, and they could go into their gardens, bring back all of the vegetables and all of the fruit that they wanted, and they wouldn't mind giving them a ham—I mean a whole ham. And think nothing of it. But you don't see that today anywhere. A farm life in a way was a hard life, and yet there were many things in it. It was not exactly communal living, but certainly the matter of the spirit of sharing.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you remember other things that people did as a form of entertainment? What about dancing?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

The dancing was not so prevalent during the time of my childhood. I left there in 1918.

WALTER WEARE:

Was this because of religious restrictions?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

There were some people that were so deeply religious that if a person would dance, they'd want to put him out of the church.

WALTER WEARE:

What about music?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

They had music. As a matter of fact, I remember one of the members of the church had a violin. He'd play at church, a violin selection, sometimes. And they had the church choirs, and pianos.

WALTER WEARE:

Would there be groups that would ever get together and play music and sing; and would any of this be distinctly cultural, having to do with the spirituals?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, not at that time. As a matter of fact, we didn't have music teachers down there as such, except when one of the teachers at the school or someone had gone away and learned music enough to play it for the choirs and things of that nature. They had no set-up for music teachers as such, where the children went to learn music. And many of them, their singing was by rote, rather than by reading music.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you think that any of this music was created in that community? That it's genuine folk music, created by the people themselves? Do you

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remember any of the lyrics, for example?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. I have always said I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid on it. So, I'm not musical myself. My wife is very musical. I guess amongst the many things that attracted me to her was the fact that she was musical. I like music. But I just never could sing. And if I were to try to sing by notes, where it would be a matter of lifting your voice or softening your voice, I'd be just a likely to do the opposite, unless I was following someone singing. So, it was not until I left there that I developed music appreciation. One of the things down at National Training School, it was then, 1918, was: two things they had down there that they don't have in schools much now. And that was music appreciation, and you did engage in singing, in the music room. That was part of the curriculum.

WALTER WEARE:

That was Dr. Shepard's?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes. And the other was the bible. They had a bible course and all of the students had to take it. I never will forget Mrs. Patty G. Shepard. I think she was an aunt of Dr. Shepard's. She had us to learn all of the books in the bible, and divide them into the different parts. The first five books of the Old Testament, the Pentateuch. There were different divisions, you know. And certain passages of scripture that you had to learn, memorize. Certain psalms that you had to memorize.

WALTER WEARE:

This training had started early in your life, though, you said, through your grandfather on your father's side. Were you expected to attend church every Sunday?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, yes. We attended church every Sunday. And I'm not saying it was as much religious fervor as it was you got a chance to meet the people in the community, to socialize. See, if you're working six days a week, and

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right on the farm, you're glad to see Sunday come, to see somebody.

WALTER WEARE:

Was church then a central institution?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes, and when the people would meet there after church was out, they'd stand out there in the church yard for at least thirty minutes. Speaking to different ones, you know, and exchanging views, just kind of bringing them up to what's happening in the community.

WALTER WEARE:

Were there activities during the week, too?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, except when they had revival meetings, usually in August.

WALTER WEARE:

You mentioned the circuit-riding preacher: was there one preacher who was famous in the area, that everybody would turn out to hear? You mentioned one Baptist preacher.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, the Baptist preacher, a lot of people liked to hear him. The Methodist as well as the Baptist always went to Sandy Plain Church on the fourth Sunday, to Rehoboth Church on the first Sunday. And, of course, I think the Baptists claimed that they had the better preacher of the two, the Methodist or the Baptist. Those were more or less social gatherings because at that time you didn't have movies in the area.

WALTER WEARE:

Was there a kind of rift, religiously, also between colored on one side and Indian on the other—did they have their different preachers?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. The Indian group was a very small group. Had their own church. The colored, at that time—I'm going to use these words interchangeably because that's the way it was; they were referred to as colored. They could go to the Indian church but the blacks couldn't. They had a few distinctly blacks in the community. They had moved in. Some had followed saw mills into the area. And some would migrate into the area. And generally that's the way it was. You could almost go any place and see someone from down there, and know they were from Columbus County.

WALTER WEARE:

By their physical….?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

By their physical appearances. All of them had good hair, long hair, and black. Most of them had long, straight hair.

WALTER WEARE:

Could the person make the decision, then, whether they were going to be "colored" or "Indian"?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, really, the coloreds didn't [unclear] ; they looked down on the Indians.

WALTER WEARE:

Let's say, hypothetically, if you had decided, for whatever reason, that you were going to identify yourself as Indian, rather than colored, would you have been able to do that?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I didn't attend the Indian church from choice.

WALTER WEARE:

But by appearance.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I could have gone. At that early age, I had kind of an antipathy on this matter of race differences, or color differences. Because, while my mother had very different feelings about it, I remember I'd get into discussions with her on the matter. She did not argue much. She'd listen and whatever she had to say, she'd say it and that was it. As I said, she was not very vocal. Part of that Indian trait. The Indians in Robeson County at that time were called Croatan Indians. And that's when John White's colony, when the members went back to England for fresh supplies, and when they came back, and the ones that had been left there had moved. And they didn't find any of them. The settlers. The legend is then, sort of the John White's history recorded, that they had carved on the bark of the trees, the word Croatan, C-R-O-A-T-A-N. And when they returned, they knew that there was a settlement further down the river of Indians. They were called Croatan, and they found, according to legend or history—whichever it is—some of these English settlers had intermarried with these Croatan Indians.

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As you see in that family tree that I showed you, of the Lowery s. One of the descendents of James Henry Lowery had moved down to Roberson County. And see, the king of England, King George, had given Judge Henry Lowery a grant. And it was either his son or grandson, he settled near Hampton, Virginia, and held court in Virginia. This son or grandson—I'd have to refer to that to see which it was now—moved into Roberson County. And in the will—a copy which I have excerpts from—where he allotted so many hundred acres: a hundred-and-eighty to this person, or a hundred-and-fifty to the other. And also certain slaves went with the land to that particular descendent of his. And then as you trace it on down, to Henry Barry Lowery, one of the descendents of Judge James Henry Lowery—William, I believe it was—prevailed upon one of the brothers, or was prevailed upon, to name a new boy child Henry, in memory of some relative. I don't know whether it was Judge Henry Lowery. But in the meantime, he had married Priscilla Berry. And she was Indian. [interruption]

James Junior married a girl, Priscilla Berry, who was one-half Indian, and moved to the site about 1736. I'll read part of this geneology if you want me to. "His majesty James Lowery arrived in Hampton, Virginia in the summer of 1666, with his wife and three sons. Family records show he was born thirty miles from London. One of his sons, James, married a girl from Williamsburg, Virginia, where the Judge also held court. They moved to North Carolina about 1708, where the Little River joins the Cape Fear. (And notations are here where it can be found, documentation). They had two sons, James and John. John signed the Cherokee Treaty in 1806, because he was an interpreter of several Indian languages. Through his father's influence, James obtained a grant of land from George II in 1732, in what is now Roberson County. However he never moved to Roberson. But his son, James Junior, married a girl, Priscilla Berry, who was one-half

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Tuscarora Indian, and moved to the grant site about 1736. In 1738, the grant was amended and given to James Junior, who died in Robeson County in 1811. A copy of his will in enclosed herewith." Then it goes on. I have that will in one of the files here. Then it gives the geneology: Judge James Lowery, then James Lowery, then James Lowery Junior, and William Lowery. And this William Lowery was 1750 to 1837, which means he lived eighty-seven years, didn't he? He was a soldier in the Revolutionary War, in Colonel Robeson's regiment. I guess that's why Robeson County was named after Robeson. Then there was Allen Lowery, 1791 to 1867. And then Calvin Lowery, January 15, 1835 to June 10, 1892. This couple had seven sons and five girls. One of the girls was Debra Lowery, who married W.R. Woodell. And one of the other girls was my mother, Annabelle Lowery. Now over here, Henry Berry, according to White's Lost of Colony of 1587. And then Henry Berry the grandson of the above. And I mentioned James Lowery had married Priscilla Berry. Then Betty Locklear married William Lowery. She was the daughter of Dennis Locklear who signed the will of James Lowery. And then Allen Lowery, 1791-1865, married Mary Cumboldt, 1802-1890. She was the daughter of Stephen C. Cumboldt, who was a soldier in the War of 1812. Then Calvin Lowery married Maria Sampson. So the Sampson name is another very prominent name in Robeson County. She lived from March 17, 1839 to March 16, 1908. So that's a part of the geneology.

WALTER WEARE:

That geneology would tend to be white and Indian?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That's right.

WALTER WEARE:

Is there any kind of record, oral or written, about when blacks came into the area?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, there are not too many blacks that lived right in the—for want of a better word; I don't know whether they'd like it or not—colored

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colony. It's still more or less a cluster of the Lowerys, the Sampsons, the Barrys, the Locklears, and all of that mixture in the white group. There are some blacks, but they're not a part of that particular area. They have their own church and they have their own college, you know. Pembroke College.

WALTER WEARE:

Would there be persons named Lowery or Sampson who would identify themselves as black?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't think so.

WALTER WEARE:

I see. As you travelled through that county, is it identifiable physically?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

As you approach it, you begin to see that you are running into the area.

WALTER WEARE:

You would not find those who call themselves colored and those who call themselves Indian living next-door to one another?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't know. Because, you see, I visited that county very seldom. The last time I was there was for the burial of my mother's brother. That was about two years ago. And the time before that was several years. And then when I visited that county with my mother, it was before I left Columbus County, before I was sixteen years of age. I never did go back there with her after I left Columbus County. But her brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces would come down to Columbus County to visit us, from time to time. As a matter of fact, her brother, Dr. Fuller Lowery, has preached at the church that we attend, Rehoboth Church. But so far as the life-style and the changes in it…well, after I left Columbus County, and after my mother and father died, there wasn't much occasion for me to go back there. February the 17th, 1977, I believe it was, I was invited back down there to give a banquet address at the Holiday Inn Motel, where they had a hundred-and-forty people present. For want of a better word,

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I'll say black and white. And the mayor of the city presented me the key to the city of Whiteville—the second time the key to Whiteville had ever been presented to anyone. And the chaiman of the board of education was there; the bank president was there; three of the members of the state legislature, including a senator, were present; and several others in public life, holding key positions in the community. They came to welcome my return after sixty years. And I've never been more royally treated. As a matter of fact, they had up on the marquis at the motel that I would be speaking there that night. So the people came from all around. My previous trip there was to be the commencement speaker at Southeastern Community College at Whiteville. It was well integrated at that time, black and white.

WALTER WEARE:

When was this?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

If I'd known I was going to be asked, I'd have checked the date.

WALTER WEARE:

Just roughly.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

It was, I would say, about ten years ago, more or less. And the leading citizens of the community were there, black and white. And they came from as far away as Chadburn. Just trying to think back on it, I think probably twenty percent of the student body was black, and/or Indians. And the others were white.

WALTER WEARE:

The Indian community, though, has been more exclusive? It's kept more to itself?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

It's kept more exclusive. But now, down at North Carolina Central University, one of them is a professor, Maynor. And has been there for a number of years. And one finished law school down there, and became a member of the state legislature. All of this has happened within the last ten years, though. So there has been more loosening of their lives, and

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moving out and become less exclusive.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you think the name of the town of Whiteville bears any relation to this legend about the ….

ASA T. SPAULDING:

About John White's Colony? I don't know. I never thought of that before. But that is the county seat.

WALTER WEARE:

Was there a colored family named White when you lived in that area?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, there were people named White. Colored and white people named White.

WALTER WEARE:

I'm thinking of one particular family, George White, the last congressman before Oscar Depriest from Chicago in …

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes, from that general area. And when I was there, there was a family there. And the head of the family was John White, and he was as white as any white person you'd want to see. And so was his hair. In other words, if you were to see him. And yet, he married a brown skinned woman.

[TAPE 2, SIDE A]

ASA T. SPAULDING:

The family cemetary down there, or the community cemetary now. You will find the names of the people who were buried there as far back, I think, and maybe beyond, but as I recall, 1777. Long before the Civil War. Which means that they had established families, with their full family names recorded on their tombstones, with date of birth and date of death. There may be some that go even further back in there. But when I've gone back down there, it's usually to spend the day. Go down in the morning and come back in the afternoon. And it's about two hours and a half drive now. It was a little longer when the roads were not quite as good. And I'd go there to a funeral, some relative or something, and while

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I was there, I'd kind of circulate around, and look at some of the tombstones. I remember distinctly seeing 1838.

WALTER WEARE:

Small land holders?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes, they were land holders.

WALTER WEARE:

Do you think there was a time, earlier perhaps, in the nineteenth century, when there was not so much stigma about the three groups intermarrying?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, I know there was some black and white intermarriage. Well, they were colored then. Today they would've been called black. I remember a man who's name was Andrew Mitchell, Sheriff Mitchell they called him. He looked like a sheriff, too. And he got married to a white woman. I can remember that. She was dead. But I knew him. As a matter of fact he'd been in my home. And his daughter would easily pass for white.

WALTER WEARE:

But the woman who was white, was she from the community or nearby? Or was she an outsider?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't know. Because, frankly, I'm not sure—and I've not done the research to try to discover it—where many of the people who were in that community came from. Now the person who I thought was going to write—Professor L.L. Spaulding, who I was talking to you about. I've learned more from him about the community. The Rehoboth Church, which is over a hundred years old, formerly had a white pastor. In the early years. And I remember him telling me that some of the people who came in there, looked like Indians. One woman who really looked like a big Indian squaw, she could weigh, I guess, two hundred pounds. Tall, and long hair that she wore in plaits. She was a light brown complexion. And I think he said that sometime in the early history some Syrians came through there and maybe there was some mixture. Why the community had people who were so similar in their complexions and all.

WALTER WEARE:

I was wondering if it were ever seen as a kind of refuge for people.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

It could've been. We don't know. Because, you see, after America was discovered, after John White's settlers came over here, people began to travel. And nomads would come through there. There was a lot of timberland there. And sawmills would come through there and spend a couple of years [unclear] . And they would bring their workers with them. And sometimes one or two would be left behind. I know that's how some of the whites came into the community, because we had a Ray family that lived about a mile, a country mile, from where we lived. And members of his family used to help us on our farm, picked cotton. He stayed there, lived and died there. To the best of my knowledge, he came there with a sawmill, working, you know, for one of the sawmill hands. He settled there.

WALTER WEARE:

What about whites outside this community, as they saw this intermarriage and so forth? Was there tension if someone who was intermarried, for instance, would go into Whiteville?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, at that time, I don't think in that particular area. I can remember—and as C.C. Spaulding pointed out when he went out to Sandford, North Carolina on his first trip from Durham as a salesman; he stopped at Sandford—they didn't have separate white and colored waiting rooms. They had one common waiting room. And he was in this waiting room and went to the ticket counter, you know, to get his ticket. When this drummer saw the dilemma he was in and how, when they got ready to go on the train, to show his appreciation for giving him the quarter to make out the balance to buy his ticket, how he reached down and picked up one of his bags and went into the train, helped him put it on the train. 1 traveling salesman And they sat together from there to Raleigh. It was after that, during the Reconstruction period—1896, I believe, to 1900.

WALTER WEARE:

It would be a little earlier than that. But the hardening of race relations does, indeed, tend to come in the nineties.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That's the information I have. The matter of race was not a big problem as it was in other places. I know it was not as hard then as I found it when I came to Durham.

WALTER WEARE:

So that when you went into Whiteville, you don't remember ‘colored only’, ‘white only’?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh no. I don't remember.

WALTER WEARE:

And what about the papers at your father's store? White and black?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, it was for the people in the neighborhood, all of whom were colored. And now you would say black [Laughter] .

WALTER WEARE:

What about political activity? Would your father vote, for example?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, yes.

WALTER WEARE:

No problems?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No problems.

WALTER WEARE:

Was he formally educated?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, I guess he had the highest education that was provided down there, whatever it was at the time he came along.

WALTER WEARE:

He went to the same school you did?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I think so, because that was the farmers' union school there, in that farmers' neighborhood, where the people in that area went to school. About five or six miles west, I guess it would be, they had another school up there. Now, in that particular area, there were more blacks. Not only calling blacks, but blacks. Now, going south or going east toward Wilmington, I guess you could go ten miles, and the people there, my complexion more or less. More or less the same as the people in the area I was born.

WALTER WEARE:

In that letter you were quoting, it said something about grant's settlement? Was that a term ever used when you were growing up, to refer to

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the area that he's talking about?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No.

WALTER WEARE:

It's an earlier time.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

You see, if I remember correctly from history, when settlers came to this country, you see, the Indians were the only ones were on it. And when the English settlers came, when they would land, they took. They claimed in the name of the king. And the way they became owners of the land were through grants from the king. He gave them title to the land. That's what this is talking about here. King George gave this grant of so many thousands of acres of land to Judge Lowery. And he passed it on to one of his sons, who settled in Robeson County. See, he was in Virginia. And this son migrated to Robeson County.

WALTER WEARE:

And the Robeson County experience then, seemed to be more Indian and white experience. And Columbus County as more black-white, but some Indian as well. Was your mother educated? Had she gone to school?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I'm sure she didn't have any more than a seventh-grade education.

WALTER WEARE:

But she could read and write?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes, she could read and write.

WALTER WEARE:

You worked, then, in the general store, went to school, and worked on the farm until you were sixteen, and then came directly to Durham?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Came to Durham. Dr. Moore came down there during the summer, after I'd been finished with seventh grade. He asked my father, "What're you going to do with that boy? Where's he going to school?" At that time I was considering going to—it was called Biddle University; now it's called Johnson C. Smith University. The name was changed because the Smith family made a large donation; but it was Biddle University. Some of the people from down there would go there. This professor Lloyd Spaulding who taught me

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in the early years, and was teaching at Biddle University then. And he had discussed my going to Biddle. See, the universities at that time, that were named universities, were not necessarily universities. They not only offered college training, but also secondary education. Finishing seventh grade, I could have entered Biddle University, at that time.

WALTER WEARE:

Was that true of Shaw, as well?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I'm not sure.

WALTER WEARE:

That was true of Dr. Shepard's training school.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

In 1910 he founded it as the National Religious Training School and Chautauqua. And the next change was the National Religious Training School. The Chautauqua was dropped. And then for religious scruples, because he had to seek funds from private sources. This woman, I think it was, this family, she had great wealth. She agreed to make a substantial contribution if he would drop the word Religious. Well, he had to keep the doors of the school open. And it became the National Training School. That's what it was when I came here in 1918. So from 1910 to 1918, it had changed its name three times.

WALTER WEARE:

When did it become North Carolina College?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

After the National Training School, the next step was the Durham State Normal School. I think that was for either two years or four years. I don't know which. But then the legislature agreed to establish it as the first liberal arts college for Negroes in the state. He had persuaded the legislature to make it a liberal arts college. Then it was the North Carolina College for Negroes. Well, times were changing. They dropped the Negroes and it became North Carolina College at Durham. Because, you see, they had North Carolina State College in Raleigh. To distinguish between the two, this was North Carolina College at Durham. After North Carolina College

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at Durham—I don't know whether there was another step in there before it became North Carolina Central University or not.

WALTER WEARE:

What persuaded you to come to Dr. Shepard's rather than Biddle?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh. Dr. Moore. Professor Lloyd Spaulding had told my father that the University would accept farm produce instead of payments for tuition, board and lodging. He could send a hog, or beef, corn, other produce, because they'd use it in the dining room.

WALTER WEARE:

Did that, in fact, happen?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. Dr. Moore came in there. That was what the first plan was, where I would go. And in the meantime Dr. Moore came down on one of his usual visits. I happened to be in the room. He said, "What are you going to do with that boy? Where's he going to school now?" "Well, he's thinking about going to Biddle." "Why don't you let him come on to Durham? I'll take charge of him." And so forth. Well, naturally, because he was to me, a hero, who came from Columbus County. He was one of the seven organizers. John Merrick, and Dr. Moore, and other five. You have that; I don't need to repeat that. You know the story of what happened there. Five dropped out in the first year. John Merrick and Dr. Moore remained. And that's when they brought C.C. Spaulding into the picture. So by that time—that was 1900 to about 1918—the company had quite a reputation. And Dr. Moore and C.C. Spaulding had taken a trip to Cuba. And they had the storm on the ocean, and they were afraid the boat was going to sink. I was familiar with that. So, naturally, it was a great motivation. I grabbed this opportunity.

WALTER WEARE:

Was the whole community familiar with the Durham story at that time?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Yes. Because, as I said, they would make their annual visits there, both Dr. Moore and C.C. Spaulding. C.C. Spaulding would leave members of his family down there to visit with their grandparents. For a week,

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or something like that. So the communication between Columbus County and Durham was pretty well established.

WALTER WEARE:

Dr. Moore was seen then by the whole community as a prominent figure.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

And not only that. Well, you know the story of the establishment of the Rosenwald Schools in this state? Are you familiar with that? He was a leader in that. He took the money out of his own pocket to finance the effort. Charles R. Moore and George W. Davis, both of whom could pass for white. To provide better Negro education. He had much to do, working through others, to get the State Supervisor of Negro Education office established as part of the Department of Public Instruction in North Carolina.

WALTER WEARE:

When Dr. Moore persuaded you to come to Durham….

ASA T. SPAULDING:

He didn't need to persuade me [Laughter] .

WALTER WEARE:

Was his motive just to get you to come to Dr. Shepard's school?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No. It was to come here and I would go to the high school. See, they had a public high school here, which was known as Whitted School then. W.G. Pearson, one of the old citizens of Durham, was the principal of the school. So, I went on over there and registered. And was to repeat the seventh grade, because they figured that coming here with the limited school terms that I had had, and I was a seventh-grade student from a rural area, that I wasn't ready to take on the eighth grade in the city. So, at the end of three weeks—I was probably a week late entering the school, getting here the first of October, and public school is already open. So I entered a week or two late. But at the end of three weeks, I think it was, they had the first test. And I remember it was in mathematics and the teacher was a Miss Coleman. I think she was a graduate of Oberlin College. She was good in math. And when the papers were graded, she found that I had the highest grade in the class. She said that I was ready to do eighth-grade work.

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I had to be able to do eighth-grade work in order to go to National Training School then. So I changed, and entered there, probably a month late—or at least two or three weeks late. But that was no problem. I caught up. For the five years there, I maintained the highest average in the entire school, and won the trustees' tuition scholarship each year.

WALTER WEARE:

When you left, you were given a diploma that was equivalent to what?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

A high school diploma. And by that time, they had a black, or colored, school committee in Columbus County in the school that I attended. And they knew me and they knew of my record there. And they wanted me to come back and be the principal of the school. They took it up to the superintendent. And of course, the superintendent usually followed the recommendation of the school committee at that time. And he approved their recommendation. They contacted me. I had already registered at National Training School in the business department when I got this call. And of course, at that time, Dr. Moore had passed. That was 1923 and he died April 29, 1923. This was September. Frankly, I don't know what persuaded me to go, except here's an opportunity to get some money. It may have been to go back down there. I can't recall, you know, whether it was to go back home, and be a principal of a school. And of course, they were anxious; they really put pressure on me to come back there. And I went. Interesting thing there, some of my eighth-grade students were bigger than I was. These big country boys. I remember one there, he was six feet two and probably weighed a hundred-and-ninety pounds. Another was at least six feet two, but was not as heavy. And one of the first students that I whipped—at that time we could use corporal punishment. I'd go out in the woods there and select my switches and had them in the corner. They had to have study hour as well as class. You were in the same room at the same time. You had to be quiet. And he kept the conversation going, and I spoke to him and asked him to cut it out.

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And not to let me catch him again. And he did continue. I was on a raised platform. And I called him up there before the whole class and selected my switch. And I reared back, as far back as I could go and came down there across his shoulders. I don't know how many licks I gave him. But I had no more trouble that year from those students. Because I imagine they said, "If he'll take him on [Laughter] , we'd better listen." So I had good discipline.

WALTER WEARE:

And you stayed there as principal how long?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

One year. I think school closed in March. And I came back to Durham. See, Dr. Moore, my first summer here, took me to the office one morning. After I had done my chores around the house and had his car out in the driveway and dusted it off. He got ready to go.

WALTER WEARE:

You lived with him while you were here?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I lived across the street from him. But I later did live there. He said, "Why don't you go on and go with me downtown." And I went on. And he took me upstairs to the second floor of the old building. And he turned me over to John T. Merrick, who was the son of John Merrick, the founder. And he was supervisor of this particular department, department. And there was an addressograph machine sitting in the hallway with a stool. He took me there, and that was my first job. I was assigned to John T. Merrick's supervision, to cut addressograph plates, for premium notices to be sent to policy holders. I've told you this before. His first instructions to me. Now, your plates were cut from the applications for the insurance, you see: the names of the person, the date of birth, and the address. If it's a man, address it as Mr.; if it's a married woman, Mrs.; if it's a single woman, Miss. Because these people living in the country seldom get mail. And when they do get it, it's addressed as ‘John’

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or ‘Joe’ or ‘Mary’ or ‘Sally’. To get a letter of premium notice from North Carolina Mutual with a title before their names will give them a feeling of dignity and of being recognized. That thing sunk in. I could see that and I knew what it meant, because I'd come from the country. And I knew this matter of calling by first names. Although, in my particular area, as far as my father was concerned, he referred to all the whites by whatever their first name was, and they called him by his first name. There was no title used between either. It was that kind of relationship. But I knew what he was saying was true. So that was my first job. And I worked with the company every summer, while I was at the National Training School. With the money I made as principal of the school that year, and coming back in March and working until September. In the meantime I had discussed where to go to college with Dr. Shepard, and he suggested Howard. So I applied to Howard in September of '24, and at the end of the first year, all my funds were exhausted. So I came on back to North Carolina Mutual and worked two years and a summer. I was an early drop out, but for reason. I took what I made in those two years and that summer. My ambition at that time was to become a CPA. I had worked through the different departments of North Carolina Mutual before going to NYU. We had, as I recall, no more than twelve or thirteen black CPAs in the country.

WALTER WEARE:

Would it have been possible in North Carolina to be certified?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, I don't know. We had a CPA in Georgia, in Atlanta.

WALTER WEARE:

Trained in Georgia?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't know where he was trained, but I know he was certified in Georgia, J.B. Blayton taught at Morehouse College, and had a CPA firm.

[TAPE 2, SIDE B]

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I had never been conditioned to feel that I couldn't be. If there was something I wanted to be or wanted to do, I felt it was only necessary to put myself to do it. So that's why I went to—I had discussed with Dr. Shepard—New York Univesity School of of Commerce, Accounts, and Finance was one of the best business schools in the country. I applied and I was accepted. That's where I ran into discrimination.

WALTER WEARE:

Did NYU give you credit for your Howard experience.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I don't recall whether I got all of it. (I recall that thing now.) I think I got credit for most of it, because I(know I)finished NYU in three years. I took some extra courses while I was at NYU, because there were certain subjects that I wanted. I took more than was necessary to graduate. And another thing: I graduated magna cum laude, and was the second black to be admitted to the Delta Mu Delta scholarship society, which was similar in the school of business—was the equivalent—to the phi beta kappa in liberal arts college. You had to be there at least three years and maintain the average—whatever it was—for those three full years, in order to make it. I never will forget: a letter came, and I looked on it and saw the Delta Mu Delta key insignia on the back of the envelope. I had heard about Delta Mu Delta, but I didn't know—in other words, I wasn't conscious enough of it to be striving to do that. Because my attitude always in school, was to take whatever the curricula required and try to do your best in every subject. Because it's put there for a purpose. And anything that you learn can't do you any harm and it might stand you in good stead. I remember my classmates, my first year at National Training School. We had to take Latin. First year Latin.

WALTER WEARE:

This is at NYU?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, at National Training School. Oh, how they talked about it, how they referred to it as a dead language, no use for it. But, I found it interesting. I found it challenging. And I found that it helped me to understand the meaning of words without having to go to the dictionary. Therefore, I took all three years. First year Latin, Ceasar and Cicero. I was tops in all of them. The same thing in geography, history—well, every subject I took. I had the same attitude. And that's why I maintained the highest average in the school. The entire school, the whole time I was down there. I won a trustee tuition scholarship. So, there again, I went to NYU, and had the same attitude, in my study habits. And, although at NYU I had to work in the cafeteria during lunch hour and got my meals free. And I worked in the post office as a subclerk in the evenings. And I had to find time in between to do my studying, and come out as I did.

WALTER WEARE:

Now, as I recall, you were telling once before about your living arrangements.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, yes. You see, when I went there, I had applied for admission. They had one dormitory for school of commerce students—Varick House. And I had applied and sent the deposit, and was accepted. If I've told you this, I won't repeat it.

WALTER WEARE:

Well, I think it's important to report it.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

All right. That's where I felt this matter of discrimination probably more keenly than at any time before. And when I presented myself, and had my trunk and all there, delivered there, and went in to obtain my room, they questioned whether or not I had reservations. I told them I had, and I had my receipt for it, and I showed it. And the house manager, or whoever it was—I found out later he was from Charlotte, North Carolina—

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but he was in charge there, and he came and he saw that I had my receipt, and that I had been admitted. So his approach was to try to persuade me not to insist upon it. He said, "Because, you know, there are a lot of Southern students here, and they will make it miserable for you." Well, he was probably right in 1927. "And the circumstances under which you would have to stay would be most difficult, and it could even result in your not being able to pass your examinations." Well, I listened to him and all. I said, "Still I'd like to have my room." Well, I don't remember all the details of that now, but in the final bottom line of it, he had my check in his hand. And he said, after he told me about how it would be unpleasant, and I wouldn't enjoy it at all and so forth and so on, he handed me my check. And, thoughtlessly, I accepted it. But I went directly from there to the NAACP office and reported the situation in detail. I told them that he had returned the check and I had accepted it. They said, "Well, there isn't anything we can do for you. If you had not accepted that check, we might have forced the issue."

WALTER WEARE:

The sense of the contract was no longer valid.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That's right. Because he had offered the refund and I had accepted it. So then I had a half-sister that lived up on 144th Street. I remember the address: 242 West 144th Street. I went up there and stayed with her the whole time I was there at NYU.

WALTER WEARE:

That's some distance from NYU, isn't it?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, yes. NYU was down on 4th Street. I had to used the elevated train back and forth over there. So, you see, I'd get from the post office anywhere from eight thirty, nine, nine thirty at night, and would have to get up in time the next morning to catch that train, to be down on 4th Street by eight o'clock. I'd get off the elevated train and

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have my breakfast at a Greek restaurant right there at the foot of the steps, and go on over.

WALTER WEARE:

Aside from NYU, did living in New York City have a large impact on you as a country boy coming to the big city.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, no, no. Because when I came here and went to Whitted School that first day, I was countryly dressed, for all that means. And the city boys were well dressed. And I remember I had heavy brown shoes on. And they had these ribbed, between a clay color and a more yellow—try to imagine—brown shoes, and wore long, ribbed stockings. And they wouldn't have anything to do with me, neither the boys nor the girls.

WALTER WEARE:

Was this typical dress from where you came from in Columbus County?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, naturally. You know old farm boys. I had a Sunday suit. See, we had our everyday clothes, and we had our Sunday clothes [Laughter] And, of course, short trousers, that would bloom over the knee. That's what I came here with.

WALTER WEARE:

I see, what were the city kids wearing?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

I think they were wearing long pants.

WALTER WEARE:

White shirts, or anything like that, to set them a part?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, they wore their ties and their shirts and all, yes. They dressed better then then they do now. See, this dress, the way they're dressing now, started a few years ago. Where was it? In New England, on the street somewhere, where they'd dress as shabbily as they could? to this country. And then the denims and all.

WALTER WEARE:

So, you weren't overwhelmed by New York City then?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

No, I wasn't overwhelmed.

WALTER WEARE:

Of course, you had been to Washington already. Did it have an impact on you, nonetheless? Harlem?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, I enjoyed going to the movies on Saturday afternoons, or Sundays.

WALTER WEARE:

This is the Harlem Renaissance?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That's right. The Resaissance Theatre was there, and the Savoy Ballroom, and another place over there on Lennox Avenue, Small's Paradise. Of course, I didn't have the money to splurge, but I took in some of the things. But I didn't have much time. I had never had any time for sports. When it was National Training School, four o'clock classes are out, I had to come back home and do my chores around at home. In the morning, I was up at five o'clock to fire the furnace, sweep the house, mop it, dust it, the sidewalks out in the front of it, get the car out, and dust it, ready for Dr. Moore after breakfast. And as soon as I had breakfast—I had my meals there—I had to leave for school. So I didn't have much time here for it.

WALTER WEARE:

What were the sports? Were they the same as now?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Oh, they had football; they had baseball. Down at the Training School they had a good baseball team, as well as a fairly good football team.

WALTER WEARE:

And back in Columbus County, were there sports?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

We had baseball only.

WALTER WEARE:

Were these community teams, or school teams?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Just the school teams.

WALTER WEARE:

Would there be community teams, and leagues?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

It hadn't reached that point at that time.

WALTER WEARE:

While I'm thinking about it: the North Carolina Mutual apparently had a team for a while. Was there a kind of city league in which they played? Who did they play?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

That was a softball league, I think it was. The girls mostly.

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And then North Carolina Mutual sponsored the John Avery boys' club team, I think it was, the first year [unclear] .

WALTER WEARE:

But in rural North Carolina, in Columbus County, there were not organized baseball teams?

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, you see, this was long after that.

WALTER WEARE:

But this is an interesting point about entertainment and how people spent their free time.

ASA T. SPAULDING:

Well, at the noon hour down there at the school, they had a baseball team. But I couldn't make it. They had better players. See, they had what they called captains. And you take this bat. I don't know how you do it. And whoever came out on top would choose his player, and the other would choose another. And they'd always choose the best players. And they had some pretty good players, some good pitchers and base players, and good batters. But I just wasn't that good.

WALTER WEARE:<