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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview C-0013-2, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Asa T. Spaulding, longtime actuary at the historically black North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company and its president from 1959 to 1968, recalls his efforts to prepare Durham, North Carolina, for desegregation. Spaulding grew up in an environment relatively free from discrimination, so after his education at New York University and the University of Michigan, he brought to Durham a determination that racial barriers were artificial and needed to be dismantled. He did so not with overt activism, but by using his influence to bring together white and black business leaders at North Carolina Mutual. These business meetings not only brought together creative thinkers, they also modeled successful integration before the civil rights movement had scored its victories in the early 1960s. In this interview, Spaulding reflects on how his growing influence as a business leader allowed him to make unique contributions to dismantling segregation in Durham.
Researchers and students might also consult the two other interviews with
Spaulding in this collection, C-0013-1 and C-0013-3. Those interested in
learning more about the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company and black
business in the South might turn to the interviewer's book, Black Business in the New South: A Social History of the North
Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company.
Former president of the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company and civic leader Asa T. Spaulding reflects on how his growing influence as a business leader allowed him to make unique contributions to dismantling segregation in Durham.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Well, I think we can reconstruct this, maybe just reading the letter. And I'll try to pick up the pieces. We'll proceed with the letter from Colonel Lowery.
I shall now read a letter:
Earl C. Lowery, M.D., FACS, FICS
5403 Hardwood Drive
Des Moines, Iowa 50312
Now the Calvin Lowery, referred to by Dr. Earl Lowery, his sisters were Annabell, who was my mother, Debra, Nancy, Susan, and Maria, whose nickname was Bobby. The brothers were Henry, Abner, William, Canada, French, Edward, and Fuller.
This is all one marriage—all those children?
All those children from one marriage.
The Lowery family then descends from….
From Judge Henry Lowery.
And it was back in 17….
Who arrived here in 1666 and settled at Hampton, Virginia, with his wife and three sons. And his family records show that he was born thirty miles from London.
And somewhere in that geneology, is it 1738, where one of the Lowerys married a Priscilla?
Yes. James Lowery Junior, married in 1738 in North Carolina. And he married Priscilla Barry, who was one-half Tuscarora Indian.
So it's 1738 that the Indian-White connection is made.
And the next we have there, William Lowery, who was a veteran in the Revolutionary War, and the file number for that is 6732. He married Betty Locklear. So that seemed to be the second. And then Allen Lowery, 1791-1865, married Polly Cumboldt. She was the daughter of S. Cumboldt—I guess that's ‘Stephen’—who was a veteran of the War of 1812. And she, of course, was white.
Now, we're not sure of who was Indian and who was not Indian, in those marriages that followed 1738. But that's the beginning of the Indian connection.
Well, we have one more: Henry Berry Lowery, who was the son of Allen Lowery. He was born in 1848. And we're not certain of just when he died, or where he died. That has not been discovered until now—or if discovered has not been revealed. And he married Rhoda Strong.
Do you think she was Indian?
I'm not sure. It seems to me that there's something
in one of these other letters that I received, that indicates her racial
identity. Cut it off while I look in the book.
This gives his name, Stephen Cumboldt, soldier, War of 1812. So I was right in that. Debra Lowery, who was Indian, married W.R. Woodell, who was white.
Your mother, Annabell, was, according to that geneology, what relation to Henry Berry Lowery?
It looks like here that Henry Berry Lowery was the son of Allen Lowery.
Now here is where you need to tell me whether these are brothers of
Henry Berry Lowery. I think they were. See that arrow pointing down
here.
The Calvin Lowery referred to….
Wait. These are sisters of Calvin Lowery. So therefore, if Calvin Lowery was the brother of Henry Berry Lowery—see he has Henry Berry Lowery then he points down here to Henry Berry Lowery's brothers. Isn't that the way you interpret that?
Yes. Then he has Calvin circled.
Because these are the sisters of Calvin.
Maybe Calvin, though, is the father.
All of those would be brothers.
Yes.
Maybe these are the family children of Calvin Lowery. These are sisters and these are brothers. These could be Calvin Lowery's children.
Which would made Henry Berry Lowery, then, your mother's grandfather. No, no. It would make him uncle. Well, to kind of recapitulate this thing, the Robeson ….
See here now. Here was Henry Berry Lowery. And he married Francis Pawley.
You may have to wait.
For the book to come out, to go any further with this.
It's clear then that the Indian side descends out of this Lowery connection with land grants from the king of England. And that's in Robeson County. And the other side of your ancestry, that's clear not much before your grandfather.
Although they've traced it further back than that because I think John Andrew Spaulding that I told you about, I think he goes back beyond. Because his father and my father had the same father. John Wesley Spaulding married twice. My father was a son from his first wife. John Andrew's father was a son by his second wife. And he's the one who's gone back and done all this research. So I'm sure, in trying to trace it, he would try to trace his grandfather, which would be my grandfather, too.
You mentioned an L.L. Spaulding yesterday.
He's the one who was supposed to be writing up the history of that whole community.
But he's long since died, I guess. Did he leave any papers, do you think?
That's what I don't know.
Now where did he teach?
He was teaching at Biddle University, I think, when he died.
See, after I left there in 1918, my knowledge of what was going on was
limited. Because I was in school. You see, I came here. And during the
summers I didn't go back, because I worked at North Carolina
Mutual while I was at National Training School. That was from 1924 on.
From 1924 to 1932 I was in school. Except the time I was working at
North Carolina Mutual, the two years I was out, from '25 to
'27. So I lost my connection, I mean this follow-up. And then
after I got here, with all the work I had at North Carolina Mutual those
first five or six years. Coming in and trying to set up an actuary
department and trying to do all the research and the records. My days,
sometimes, ran from eight-thirty in the morning to twelve or one
o'clock at night. And from January first until March the
first, I would go to work at eight-thirty in the morning, would have
lunch up there, would come home for
This work ethic that we were talking about—we were talking about your father earlier—do you think that that comes from….
Well, the job required it. Under the law that statement had to filed in the insurance department on March the first. And there were no excuses. And there was a penalty. I think the penalty was fifty dollars a day for every day it was late.
But you didn't have to accept that challenge. Not everybody would have been that ambitious.
Well, the job required it, and if you were going to hold the job, you had
to do it. Because if you couldn't do it, somebody would have
to. And after we got the original copy, we had to make copies for eight
states and three or four copies for the office. And that had to be
copied by hand. All of those schedules, all of the securities, all bonds
had to be listed individually, all stocks, all mortgages, all real
estate, all the different assets. That was all done by hand. So we had
to get that statement out in time for copies to be made manually, to be
filed in every state in which we operated by March first. I remember one
Sunday, we met up there. Even the president was there. We had about
thirteen copies. And each person had a copy of that statement. And we
went line by line from the
Should we read that will? Let's do that.
You will probably be interested in excerpts from the will of James Lowery, which reads as follows:
"James Lowery died in 1811 and left the following will, which is recorded, Book of Wills Number One, page 121, Office the Clerk of Court, Robeson County, State of North Carolina, in the name of God, Amen."
"I, James Lowery, of the county and state aforesaid, though weak
in body, yet of a perfect mind and memory, blest be God, do this
thirteenth day of March, the year of our Lord, one thousand, eight
hundred and ten, make this my last will and testament as follows: first
I recommend my soul to Almighty God, and my body to the earth."
This is marked #3 here, so it's the third excerpt, I presume.
"First I give and bequeath to my loving wife the plantation I
now live on, and the Negores Peter, Jake, Betty, Fanny-Bob, and all the
land in my possession but one hundred twenty acres that my son lives on,
and one hundred acres that my son, William, lives on. During her natural
life, and after her death, to my son, James Lowery. I also give and
bequeath to my son, William, the plantation he now lives at and all the
cattles and hogs in his possession at this time. I also give and
bequeath to my son, Thomas Lowery, one hundred and twenty acres of land
that he now lives on. I also give and bequeath to my daughter, Mary, the
Negroes Violet and Harry. I also give and bequeath to my daughter,
Ceily, the Negroes Jenny and Beverly. I also desire that all the stock
of cattle, hogs, harness and sheep remain on the premises and if either
of my daughters marries during their mother's life, to divide
as she thinks proper. Signed, sealed and delivered at the presence of
us." Signed James Lowery, and the 'us'
are the witnesses, W. MacNeil, and Neill MacNeil, and Bennett Locklear.
And you will remember in this geneology here, that William Lowery
So, if this will is dated 1810, the Indian-White connection is well established and you have then these families who are mixed actually owning plantations and owning slaves. So that establishes that line, and the other line, as we said, is less clear. Back to your grandfather who was a landholder. And you're not sure how he came into possession of his land.
No. But the thing about it, it was not only he, but all the families that lived in the area there, that were landowners. All the Spauldings, the Moores, and the group that's referred to in the noble ancestry here.
Do you suspect that they were one-time slaves who were either emancipated?
All I know is that there were people there who reported never to have been slaves, and were referred to as free issue.
They might have originally been servants?
Well, I presume it means that they were born free. Some did buy their freedom later. But the earlier word that was passed down from hand to mouth, and different ones would be pointed out: ‘he's a free issue.’
Have you ever heard the tale that there may have been fugitive slaves who went to this interior area and then intermarried with Indians? The Indians provided a kind of refuge. This was true with the Seminoles in Florida.
No, I haven't heard of that in Robeson County. Because, as a
matter of fact, so far as I know, my mother was the first woman from
Robeson County that married outside. The intermarriages there, into
He would have been described as a colored man?
Yes. As a matter of fact, he was very fair; he had very good quality of hair; and I'm sure he was of mixed blood with whites.
And then she stayed in that area after her marriage.
See, she had two children by him—two daughters. And subsequently my father married her. And from that union came five children. Three boys and two girls. The first child was a daughter, the second was a son, my brother. Well, she was my sister, too. Of course, I was the third child. And then I had a brother and a sister following me.
Did they stay in that area?
Only two of them stayed there.
Are any of them living now?
Yes. All but one is living. And that's the younger brother. He died about four years ago, I guess it was. He was still there on the farm.
They carried away, you think, the same values, or do you think you were exceptional among your brothers and sisters?
Oh, all of them had values. My brother lives right up here in the next block. You can go by there and see his home. And he has a lot there with the most beautiful flowers. That's his hobby, looking after those flowers. He worked for North Carolina Mutual from the time he came to Durham, until he retired. He retired as head of the printing department.
We were talking about this distinction between Columbus County and race
relations and Durham and race relations, particularly in connection with
Well my father had a lot of interests. He was a great hunter. He was enterprising. Because, in addition to farming and the principal crops—corn, tobacco, cotton, wheat, and of course peas, that were as cover crops as well as for gathering. From this the pea vines were cut and baled into hay for the feeding of the cattle. Some oats were planted also. And in addition to that, as a hobby, the aforementioned hunting. And in addition was that at one time, he and his half-brother, and his brother-in-law owned a sawmill together, later in life. But prior to that, he operated a general merchandisestore for the community. A community store. You could go there and buy clothes, cloth. A lot of the women did their own sewing, you know, and made what they wore. And he would order bolts of cloth from Wilmington, North Carolina. And he'd buy the flour by the barrels, sugar, all of the groceries, all of the staple foods. And it was a general merchandisestore. In other words, you could go there and get whatever you needed.
Was this just a country store out in the rural area? Not in town?
No, not in town. He was at the crossroads, coming from another
section—I guess about seven miles. A crossroads between
Whiteville, North Carolina on the Coastline, which was south of where we
lived, and Rosindale, which was on the Seaboard Railroad. We had the
Seaboard Railroad on one side and the Atlantic Coastal on the other.
Whiteville, which was the county seat of Columbus County, was about nine
miles from the intersection of these crossroads where we lived. And his
store was on what would be the northwest corner of the intersection. It
was between five and six miles from there to Rosindale, which was the
Seaboard Coastal Railroad.
To whom would he sell all these products?
He would take it to Rosindale. I think that's the reason that railraod station got its name, because it was a center for selling rosin. And shipping it to Wilmington. The merchant there would buy it, the rosin and turpentine, and ship it to Wilmington.
Would many of the farmers in this colored community do the same thing? Would they have a turpentine business?
He was the only one who had the distillery for it.
Would other farmers bring their products to him?
They'd bring it there. So with those different activities going on, I always had an interest in seeing how it was done, and being a part of it. Even though I was only five or six years when he started with that kind of thing.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
In addition to tar, there was another industry, the turpentine industry, in North Carolina, in which my father participated. And the process of gathering the turpentine, you would chip what you call chip boxes in the trees. What you did there was, you would cut a container into the tree cup-like, semi-circular on the outer rim, and, or course, in the form of container into the tree. And then at the beginning of that, you'd have what you call the chipper, where you'd chip the sap from the tree. The process is similar to the rubber plantations in Liberia today. Same principal in turpentine. And you'd have period, when you start that chipper, to go around weekly, and go up another section. And that turpentine would drain into that box that you had cut into the tree. And the collectors would come around with their buckets periodically. They knew just about how many days where that box would be filled. And would dip the turpentine out of the box and go on to another tree, and so forth.
And you were actually doing some of that work yourself?
No, I wasn't old enough to do it then. But I saw it being processed, and converting it from turpentine into rosin.
Was this a family enterprise though, in which your brothers and sisters, or would you hire people?
There were hired hands that would go around and do the chipping.
People from the community?
Uh huh.
Would white persons work for him? Do you ever remember a white person working for him?
Well, white persons worked for us on the farm, chopping cotton and picking cotton. We all worked in the field together.
And that would violate any….?
No, nobody thought anything about it. That's why this matter of discrimination or segregation to me, coming up there—I just was not aware of it until just a little before I left there. When I mentioned that my father operated this restaurant out there at Elkton. When he first started, he didn't have to have this dividing.
Do you remember when he started it?
I left there in 1918. I would say that he was operating it at least three or four years before I left there. I remember another thing, on Saturday nights. he'd go home, and he had one of these long pocketbooks that the money was kept in. And one of my jobs on Sunday morning was to count his money. Separate it into the pennies, nickles, dimes, quarters. Right on. And then the paper money. To get it in form for him to bank it on Monday.
This restaurant. Was it a railroad stop?
Yes. It was in Elkton, North Carolina, which was another railroad station between Clarkton and Rosindale.
Did he own the land that that was on?
No, I don't think he did. He rented it.
Now, when he began this, there was no segregation, even for dining.
Not that I recall. Because there wasn't much dining. This was the first restaurant that I remember being opened for serving the public.
But then you mentioned, as time passed.
I remember later there was this little divider between the section where the blacks ate and the whites ate. That developed just a little before I left. But it was such a thing. They could just look across it and see each other, you know. It was just something to separate. It was not even waist high.
Before this, when these whites came to your father's house on these hunting trips, would you eat together?
Oh, we would eat together all the time. They'd come there and come right on in the kitchen. We'd all sit around the table together and think nothing about it.
Would they tell stories to one another?
Oh, yes. And they'd each call each other by their first names. No differences were made.
What about the ‘Mr.’ and ‘Mr.’ for the colored population? Was that withheld in that area?
They were called by first names. If your name was Armstead, it was Armstead, or if it was James, you were Jim. White or black across the line.
You were talking about the ‘Mr.’ and the ‘Mrs.’ yesterday in North Carolina Mutual.
Yes, well that was after I came to Durham. Naturally, you see, that was
not the pattern in Durham. There was separation. They knew
So he could call whites by their first names.
Sure. Like Jim Elkins, or John Elkins, or Walter Porter. They were all by their first names: Walter, Jim, John, James.
Politically: your father could vote?
Yes.
Was your mother politically active at all? Did she vote, do you recall?
She voted at times. But, you know, she was of a retiring nature. The Indian traits were reticence and retirement, not being very vocal, and being more introverted. Now, my father was an extrovert. My mother was an introvert. So I guess I'm somewhere in between.
Did she stand out as different from the rest of the population?
Well, she had her good friends. But she was not a great conversationalist.
But she could participate socially, with the quilt making and such?
Oh, yes. And then, after all, they didn't have parties and
things on the farms like they have in the cities. You worked six days a
week and went to church on Sundays. What would happen: on the first
Sunday, we would always have a dinner and invite our friends from the
Rehoboth Church to have dinner with us. And usually most of them were
Baptists. And we went to Sandy Plain, which was the Baptist Church, on
the fourth Sunday. Some of them always invited us to their homes for
dinner. And, of course, we would eat and sit around and spend the
afternoon talking and discussing
The church was a social activity; this quilting that you mentioned; the hunting. What about games? Do you remember any games you played while you were growing up?
No. We didn't have games at that time. It hadn't reached that point or that area. Except for baseball. Football hadn't started, nor basketball. See, I was still talking about prior to 1918.
Yes. So the evidences of segregation would have been in the schools. You went to an all-black school.
And I didn't recognize, or it just never occurred to me that we had the black school there. It was a community school. It was located in the community for the people. And it just happened that all of them were black. So, you see, there wasn't anything to cause me to think that this is a segregated school. It was a community school. Just like you talk about neighborhood schools? And the people in the neighborhood attended the school.
And the church?
And the church. Now, as to whether or not there was feeling. See, kids, or the younger people, they don't see that or recognize it unless their parents drill it into them. My parents had no reason to drill this into us, or to call it to our attention, because we socialized and ate together. What is more intimate amongst blacks and whites than to sit down and eat together? It's taken us a long time, even in later life here, in the cities. When I came to Durham, I helped open the hotel here for blacks and whites to sit down together before the public accommodations proceedings were made.
This was in the fifties?
Yes. As a matter of fact, when I came back from Michigan in 1933, and shortly thereafter—I don't remember what the year was, or whether this textile riot in Gastonia happened.
1929.
Well, this was while I was away in school, at NYU. But I knew about it, and the tensions that rose and what happened. And after I came back to Durham—I don't recall whether it was a tobacco factory or a textile plant—they had this strike. And where the strike breakers were brought in.
You're speaking of Durham?
In Durham. And the situation was very tense.
The strike breakers were black or white?
Well, if it was the textile industry, they were all white. And if it was
the tobacco industry it was mixed, black and white. But I remember that
I was very much concerned about it. While I was away in school, I would
write articles for the Carolina Times.
This was the black newspaper?
That's right. Periodically something would strike me and I
would write an article on it, dealing with it. So when I came
back—after I finished and came back here—I started
writing an article occasionally on something that was of interest, that
had happened in the community and I had a reaction to. I'd
write an article and send it as a letter to the editor. And it would be
published. And I remember while this strike was going on, I think I made
reference to what had happened in Gastonia, and whether or not we wanted
it to happen in Durham, and that I thought that the leadership should
try to take a stand in trying to bring about a more favorable climate,
to settle it without resorting to violence. And I remember one of the
letters
Do you think that was a genuine feeling, or do you think they were using that?
Well, they all agreed that it was not good for the community, what was happening, and problems that were coming up. And I took the position that if everybody is pulling together, it becomes easier for all, and progress can be made. Whereas, if you have a divided community and different ones are pulling in different directions, they offset each other, so, therefore, we stalemate. They bought my argument. But they were not motivated, whatever the reasons. And I won't try to read their minds. But many of them said, "I just don't know whether I could get any followship." There could be something to that. Because, you know, when you're staking out new ground, you can be left alone. And unless you can get some followship, you may lose some friends that you had before.
Were they talking about other leaders or just about the white masses in general?
No, we were talking about leaders. Because they were holding responsible positions in some of the businesses here, as well as public office and the publishing business.
White and black leaders could apparently sit down and talk, but you couldn't get much further than that?
That's right. And then I think, as I began to gain stature, because of my being actuary of North Carolina Mutual—because, you see, the company has always been downtown from its very beginning. It's the only city that I knew of that you could go in anywhere, and find a leading black business in the downtown, in the heart of the town. Because, the post office was just one-half block west of us; Main Street was one block south; and the leading bank was just right around the corner; and the courthouse was probably just a little over two, two-and-a-half blocks southeast. As a matter of fact, the hotel was just one-half block west.
But there were certain things in that area that you couldn't do.
But at the same time there were a lot of things we could do. You know,
the dollar makes a difference. You take the stores. I remember shortly
after I came back—the leading stores, the top
stores—a black woman could go in there and buy a dress, but
she couldn't try it on. She could have an account. I mean if
they felt it was good credit. But they would address their bills to them
by their first names. And one of the first confrontations I had was with
the leading women's wear store. This was after I got married.
I married in 1933. And my wife opened an account there. And I remember
the first bill that they sent to her. It was sent to me. A.T. Spaulding.
I sent it back and told them that evidently this was meant
Were there practises then that informally kind of fell away for people of your stature?
They made a difference. You take, for instance, the Pullman
accommodations out of Durham. Blacks couldn't get Pullman
accomodations in the South at that time. But the top officers of North
Carolina Mutual could. I remember when I got ready to go to New York
University in 1927. I went down to the ticket office to get Pullman
accommodations. And the ticket agent who had been selling Pullman
accommodations to C.C. Spaulding, and Dr. Shepard here at the college,
Mr. Ferguson. He was the ticket agent. He's still living. Way
up in age though. And he sold me Pullman, sold me a berth. And then his
successor, Mr. Bobbitt, same thing. From that time on I was always able
to get it. And I remember when I went on the train that night. It left
here at seven o'clock, or five o'clock.
I've forgotten which. But anyway, when I went on the Pullman
car, before entering the car, I heard conversations, with the passengers
on there. When I walked in through that door, it got so silent. I went
on to my seat and sat down. And it was some time before somebody started
talking with his seat-mate, or the person across the aisle. I paid no
attention to it; I knew I had my seat and I was going to keep it
So there was no overt action?
No overt action, just everybody ignoring me. And later it got to the
place where conversations would start between the passengers and me. And
especially after I became actuary of North Carolina Mutual. So
I've
Was there evidence this early in Durham that you were having black leaders, yourself included, having this kind of impact on white leaders? That is, were they changing?
Well, when I succeeded C.C. Spaulding as trustee of Shaw University—and I don't want to repeat something I've already said; I think I told you about…
I think we missed the part that you're getting up to.
All right. They would speak at eleven o'clock and have a
question and answer period that would extend it to twelve. I would
always bring that speaker to Durham for two purposes: one, to give him
lunch at North Carolina Mutual, and second, to have community leaders to
come in and meet him, and have him to talk to them on any subject he
wanted. Because all of them were people who were leaders nationally, in
business, commerce, industry, banking, or what have you. Or
international leaders. Jumping ahead, I had, for instance, I remember
when I had Francis I. Dupont to come here. And I wanted him to meet the
community leaders. He was supposed to speak at eleven o'clock
and his train came around eight or eight-thirty, I think. So, anyway, I
called I guess about thirty of the leaders, black and white, in to meet
him, probably at nine o'clock in the morning, in our
directors' room. They came because this was one of the
Duponts. I don't need to elaborate on that. And to rub
shouders with him, and to have him talk to them, and to be able to ask
him questions. And I remember one of the things
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
I would select key white people to come and have lunch with the speaker
and with the officers of our company. And, you know, I never had a
refusal. They would come over here, and of course it was a private
sitting, and they felt that they could come and not be exposed to the
community. But that didn't last long before I had a
photographer to come in a take a picture of it, for our records, and our
history
The Herald is the morning paper, and the Sun is the evening paper?
That's right. So I said, let me start with the morning paper.
I had developed a kind of comraderieship, I guess you would call it at
that stage of life, with the publisher, C.C. Council. And he was one of
the early ones that I invited. And he came. And by that time, I had
already
Now, who would be there? These are white Durham businessmen?
Yes. The publisher of the Durham Morning Herald was
amongst the guests at this luncheon with us and the speaker who had been
to Shaw University. He was glad to come, because he wanted to meet this
man and talk with him. And it's just like today. People like
to shake the hand of a celebrity. And I knew that. It went on so that I
would have different ones. Then after this would come out that Mr.
so-and-so was here, and these were the people who were at lunch, it got
to the place where people wanted to be invited. I had no problem. I
would always invite a different set of whites. Sometimes it was a lawyer
and a banker. Well, you just go around the different representations of
groups. Then after that, we would assemble in our directors'
room, and I had a larger group—always about twenty-five or
thirty people there, about equal distribution of blacks and whites. The
black leaders in the different businesses and things they were doing.
The publisher of the Carolina Times, the publisher of
the Morning Herald, and all. In other words, I try to
get all these counterparts. And in planning it, I would always arrange
it with the speaker that he would be coming to Durham for luncheon after
the talk at Shaw. And I would ask him if he would give about fifteen
minutes talk to the community leaders. And they would all agree to it.
And they would have a question and answer period afterwards. And those
were the first forums between blacks and whites. Long before Duke
started inviting the speakers that they're inviting in now.
And this was the forerunner of the exchange, the interchange of ideas
between blacks and whites in Durham. That was North Carolina Mutual.
When they were assembled there, would they forget about race, do you think?
Well, I'm sure they were conscious of race, but at the same time….
Were they comfortable?
Oh, yes, they were comfortable. And especially as it went along. It was always published in the paper. There were always pictures of the group that were made. And that's why it was considered an honor to be invited. Because the speakers were of the calibre that you would want to have an opportunity to talk with them.
Would you have to be careful about a seating arrangement?
No. They just took their seats wherever they wanted. I'd always sit at the head table. Or, even before I became president, I'd have the chairman to sit at the head of the table, and the speaker on his right, and I'd be on his left.
Did they ever confide in you personally after these experiences?
Oh, sure! They thanked me for inviting them.
But would they talk about the contradiction of one moment being togehter?
Oh, no, I never made it a point to discuss the matter of that. It was a matter of an opportunity to come together and meet people, and hear what's going on in the world, and what the current issues are, and what's being done. How, if they're at all being successful, what's the secret of their success and so forth. Whatever they wanted to talk about.
I was wondering if it had any psychological impact on race relations.
Oh, sure it was having a psychological impact, because they Durham Sun, the editor of the Durham Sun, was down on Paris Street, and would write
his editorials on the block vote, you know, and the Paris Street Gang,
those kind of things, you know. I mean there were some very vitriolic
editorials. So I bided my time. And I'd invite Mr. Council of
the Herald to all of them. And I just was imagining
that he was wondering if he was ever going to get an invitation. So, I
don't remember who the speaker was, but it was someone that I
knew he'd be glad to meet. And he would be willing to sit
down and eat with him. I thought he would; and I extended him an
invitation. And, sure enough, he accepted it and came. And a picture was
made of that
Was there ever any reciprocity? Was it possible in this etiquette to be invited back?
Well, this was the forerunner of the next step, of making it a community-wide thing. In the early fifties, my pastor used to have what he called ‘Goodwill Day’ and ‘Brotherhood Day’.
This is Miles Mark Fisher?
Yes. In February. So I suggested to him, whether or not he'd
be interested in my getting (by that time I had formed these contacts,
nationally and internationally and so forth) just a roster of people
that I could extend invitations to and who would accept them. I remember
shortly after
This is Sandford?
No, this is Irving Carlyle. Before Sandford.
It was following the 1954 United States Supreme Court decision outlawing
segregated schools in public education, when many Southern governors and
other state leaders were urging non-acceptance of the Supreme Court
decision. And Mr. Spaulding invited attorney S. Carlyle, a partner in a
prestigious law firm in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, to be the
Brotherhood Day speaker at White Rock Baptist Church. It was there that
Mr. Carlyle said in part, "The decision of the Supreme Court of
the United States on May 17, 1954, calling unconstitutional the
compulsory segregation of the races in the public schools is one of the
historic decisions handed down by that Court. On the pages of that
Court's epic decision, national destiny has been written, so
that all could read and understand, whether they agreed or
not." Mr. Carlyle continued, "I have come to the
conclusion that the decision is right and inevitable, and will be so
regarded by history. Truth is on the side of the Court. The core of the
truth is that all men are entitled to freedom through the compulsion of
law, the power of religion, the abolition of racial discrimination in
this country in due course is certain. And this will come
Well, that's the main part I wanted you to read.
So this is the step that led up to this.
You see what I was doing: I was working on different fronts. Trying to change the attitudes of people. I take this position, that if you can really change the heart or the attitude of a person, you've made a change in an individual. If you change conditions through force, for a long time, to keep it, you've got to do it by force. But if you can get people to change, you've really done something worthwhile. And I felt that to bring people together, and to let them come to know each other, and to know that human beings are human beings, aspirations, and common goal, and common objective, that all of us are interested in building a better city, and things of that nature, rather than fighting each other. Because, when you're dividing and fighting each other, you're hurting yourself as well as somebody else. So, with that thesis I would invite these people. I had the ambassador from Costa Rica, the ambassador from Nicaragua, I think, the ambassador from Nigeria, the ambassador from Guana, the person from India who was the first Asian Catholic, I believe, who was privy council to the pope, to speak here. What I would do is, after these people would speak at the church, I would have a reception for them here, and would invite a certain number to come by and meet and shake hands and converse. And, you know, sometimes you'd have a line almost half-way that block.
Up the street?
Coming in here. Black and white. And then, after that, I took it to the hotel. Let me see, I think I have the first ambassador where we opened the Jack Tar Hotel, in 1964, before all these riots and things.
That's the year before the public accommodations.
That's right, before public accommodations. I want to show you
that, and show you what that ambassador said at that luncheon, and who
was a member. I set up a committee for brotherhood day luncheon. I went
to see the manager and told him what I wanted to do. And before the
hotel was opened, I had arranged with the manager for him to give him
accommodations. And my pitch was that he was a foreigner, he was
important to our international relations, and he'd be making
a contribution by accommodating him. And the State Department would
appreciate it, and so forth. Well, to make a long story short, he agreed
to let us have it. And blacks had never eaten there, to say nothing
about blacks and whites eating together. And I set up for that a
committee, brotherhood day committee. The president of Duke University,
Dr. Douglas Knight. I was the chairman, and he and the president of
North Carolina College were vice-chairmen. And I had on the committee,
the mayor of the city, the executive vice-president and president of the
chamber of commerce, and a different group there formed this committee
to serve as hosts, and to sit on the dais at the luncheon. And had open
invitation for anyone who wanted to buy the tickets for the luncheon.
And we would have a hundred and fifty people there, black and white. And
when this ambassador, Udochi
To summarize: it began in the thirties when you came back and you were concerned about violence coming up. Was there violence here in the thirties?
Well, there were some strike breakers that were brought here at some of the strikes, and tensions were pretty high. I don't remember that anyone was killed. But there was violence. So this is the first time this has ever been told, in the way that it is being told. But things were just done. Of course, news accounts of what happened were in the paper. And people came to know it. And I think that's one of things for whatever respect I have been able to build in the community. These are the things that help contribute to it.
Did any of this filter down, do you think?
Oh, I'm sure it improved relations. Oh, yes, it improved relations. We wouldn't have the blacks in public offices that we have today if it hadn't been…things don't just happen overnight, you know.
Was this also part of the Commission on Interracial Cooperation? Was that their ideals?
They had one, but I don't remember anything that they did that had a lasting effect, really. They had a lot of what they refer to as ‘do-gooders’. My approach was not to invite a few people, except to that luncheon thing, you know. The thirty or forty people who would meet in the directors' room to hear the person speak, the leaders in the community, to come if you want to and not if you don't want to. But they always came.
You gave them something attractive.
I had a magnet.
It would appear then with North Carolina Mutual and the leaders, that whites did not see all blacks alike in Durham.
North Carolina Mutual has made a contribution to this city, state, and
nation, that's immeasurable. There's no way you
can measure it.
Go ahead, though.
All right. He got solicited all of the officers of North Carolina Mutual
and some of the key people in the bank and things of that nature, and
collected, I think it was seven hundred dollars. I don't know
what the amount was, but I think it was seven hundred dollars
thereabouts. And they were having a hard time raising their goal. And he
took it over to the office and laid it on the table. He said,
"Here's a contribution."
The result was when the first mayor's committee was appointed, I was appointed as a member. And when the committee met, I was elected as vice-chairman of the mayor's committee, which I held until the… there was something that intervened; I don't recall what it was now. But anyway, then I was appointed the first black member of the board of adjustment.
This committee you're speaking of, the mayor's committee: what was the full title of the committee?
I don't recall if it was called ‘human relations’ at that time: mayor's committee on human relations.
This was in the early sixties?
Yes. I served thirteen years on the city board of zoning. But anyway,
these things as a result of what I had done in these interracial
matters, they considered me a natural for the mayor's
committee, for the early
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
At that time, and in the community attitudes and all, the only
Did you ever encouter really rugged opposition?
No. Fortunately. And my approach, evidentally, has been such—and I've carefully thought the thing through. I would have to say—whatever the reason; I know not what; I guess the Lord is with me—the first time that I ate in the Jack Tar Hotel and took the matter up with the manager there was when I invited Lawrence Spivack to speak at Shaw. You remember him and his weekly program?
The columnist, yes.
"Meet the Press". I don't remember how our
connection developed, but it goes way back. But anyway, I invited him to
speak at Shaw. This was in the early stages. And when he did, mayor
Evans was the mayor at that time. He was Jewish. And I invited Spivack
and his wife. His wife was
I guess it goes back to 1959, when Sehon
I think it's worth repeating.
And I was invited to the White House for the dinner, as I recall. Now, I
may be getting a little mixed up. But this other part I'm
sure of. The State Department contacted me to see about hosting him. And
John Morrow, who was the ambassador, and formerly taught at North
Carolina Central University, and he was the ambassador to Guinea. And
the State Department was anxious. See, after Sehon Touré
became president, the Russians wanted him to visit Russia. We wanted him
to visit here. And everybody was going to determine which way he was
going to lean by where he visited. Morrow was called upon because his
brother was in the White House at that time, Fred Morrow. So, through
that and the State Department, he agreed to come to Durham. Now, he had
asked to go to Atlanta. So they were in a pickle. There was no way they
could get the governor of Georgia to receive him. Well, they
couldn't stand for the head of state to be rejected by the
governor of the state. So they got in touch with Hodges, who was our
governor at that time. And Hodges agreed. While he didn't
receive him at the mansion, he arranged for him to stay at the Carolina
Inn, and they would have the dinner that night at the Morehead
Planetarium. We were invited there. There were they wanted him to visit North Carolina Mutual because
of the position that it held—a black institution, largest
Negro insurance company in the world, and all that. And that that would
make some impression on him, what a minority is doing in this country,
which is a democracy as against a communist country. So we agreed to
serve as hosts. I had the mayor to present him with a key to the city,
and it was quite an affair. Following that my wife and I were invited to
the dinner over at Morehead Planetarium, and of course they had a
luncheon for him over at Duke—Dr. Hollis Edena— we
were invited out there. And so on. But as these African countries began
to gain their independence, and they would send missions over here.
Especially agricultural ones. They'd come to North Carolina A
& T University because of their interest in agricultural
development in their respective countries. In every instance, they had
the North Carolina Mutual on the agenda as places to visit. And we would
entertain them. Mechanics & Farmers Bank, Mutual Savings and
Loan Association, North Carolina Mutual would have a luncheon. And I
guess you saw him going through the whetstone with different groups.
I was talking about what North Carolina Mutual has meant to our state and nation. And how you measure it in terms of goodwill. I don't know how you measure it. And because of the respect that it had—I think I told you the story of how I got Hubert Humphrey here to be the commencement speaker.
I think that's worth putting on tape.
Well, if you already have it.
Not on tape, we don't have it.
Well, the first thing was our ground breaking.
END OF INTERVIEW