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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview C-0013-3, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Asa T. Spaulding was born in rural North Carolina in 1902, but his scholastic aptitude soon removed him from the farm where he spent his childhood. After a high school education in Durham, North Carolina, Spaulding earned a degree from New York University and received training as an actuary at the University of Michigan. He returned to Durham to take a position at the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company, a historically African American company. Spaulding eventually held its presidency, and before, during, and after attaining this leadership position, used his influence to advance the interests of the African American community. Spaulding remembers some of those efforts in this interview, including an unsuccessful try for the mayoralty in Durham and his support for a community grocery store. At the heart of this interview, sharing space with Spaulding and his relatively conservative approach to civil rights agitation, are other African American and white civil rights leaders Spaulding worked with, including the fiery but effective Dan Martin, the organizer Howard Fuller, educator Charles R. Moore, and John Wheeler, who helmed the Durham Committee on Negro Affairs. Spaulding's discussion of the committee, as well as North Carolina Mutual, highlights the importance of Durham's African American organizations in sustaining a vibrant black community, and their uncertain future in a changing state. Researchers and students interested in economic empowerment, community organizing, and African American business will find much of interest in this interview.
Researchers and students might also consult the two other interviews with
Spaulding in this collection, C-0013-1 and C-0013-2. Those interested in
learning more about the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company and black
business in the South might turn to the interviewer's book, Black Business in the New South: A Social History of the North
Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company.
Asa T. Spaulding, the first African American actuary in North Carolina and former president of the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company, remembers and reflects on community activism in Durham, North Carolina.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
We had never been able to get a black even nominated for the county
commissioner's board. Lincoln Hospital had problems getting
aid from the county. And one of the trustees came to me to see if I
would run for county commissioner, because they felt that without a
voice on the board, the chances were that the doors of the hospital
would be closed. He put it to me this way. He said, "You owe it
to the community. You're the only person who would have any
semblance of a chance of being elected. And for you to refuse, it would
be turning your community down." Well, you know,
that's something to put on your conscience. Especially with
all the sickness of my family, and all my children were born in Lincoln
Hospital. So I thought about it, and I said, well maybe it's
true. And here's a good chance for me to find out whether the
demonstration that took place in the civic center on that night was
genuine. I went down the day of the deadline that morning, and filed as
a candidate for county commissioner. So I ran and was elected. There
were thirteen people running, incumbants as well as new ones, in the
primary. The person who had been on there I think about fifteen years or
more. And had always led the ticket. He's an undertaker. So
he was campaigning everytime he buried a body. And he was the largest
undertaker in town. He was very popular. In the primary he beat me by
five hundred-and-nine votes. In the general election, I beat him by more
than the five hundred votes that he beat me in the primary. In other
words, I led the ticket. So the demonstration manifested itself not only
in the civic center but at the polls. I had a
That was in '68?
'68.
And was it in '70 that you ran for mayor?
'70 or '71. No, it was '71. The election
for mayor was off-year from the elections for county commissioner. I
didn't plan to run for re-election in '70, but
they came back to me and said, "Now you've opened
the door, the only way we can be sure to keep it open is for you to run
again." Well, I did run. I was elected, and led the ticket
then. So in '71, people were displeased with the person they
had as mayor, and they were going to make a change. And it was suggested
that I run. Well, it was so late. Because Hawkins had been out, and all
of my friends— especially in the white community, and some of
the blacks—he had commitments from. They wanted to get rid of
the incumbent, and if he, Hawkins, would run, they promised to support
him, both financially and otherwise. I hadn't indicated that
I was giving any consideration to doing it. So he had all these
commitments. He had commitments from the Seamans, from the Powe firm,
from the Bryants, and everybody else. But there were others who wanted
me to run. So I sent a letter to one of these people saying I was being
urged to run, and if I ran, would they support me. And they came back
and said that they were sorry that they didn't know earlier;
they had no idea that I was even considering it. They knew I was on the
board of county commissioners and had led the ticket and all, and could
probably stay there as long as I wanted to. And they didn't
think that there would be any likelihood that I would be a candidate.
And they had naturally committed themselves to Hawkins. And in politics
you don't go back on your word, you know, when you commit
yourself
Well, some of the questions that they were using: "Are you going to let a black be the mayor of Durham?" "Is Durham ready for a black to be the mayor of Durham?"
Was the press raising this issue, too?
No. By word of mouth. They were contacting the different ones and even
contacted some of the blacks that had pledged to support Hawkins. Well,
I can understand that. Because they were working with him on the city
council and all; they had wanted to get rid of the incumbent. Naturally
they had promised that they would support him if he ran. I had not
announced that I was considering it. But anyway I got enough
encouragement to cause me to go ahead and file. And, of course, you know
the results. So there had to be a run-off between him and me. The thing
that provoked me—because I was told the Friday before. Well,
as a matter of fact, I had some of the political leaders down in East
Durham to call me and tell me that I needed to come down there and speak
to those people. Because he had been down there, and the things that
he'd said, a lot of people were being turned off. And also I
did not go back to the tobacco factory, where all the laborers were
working, between the primary and the election. I got the support at the
primary. He had visited them, and had his representitives making the
contacts down there. And in addition to all that work that I
didn't know was going on—I didn't work
as hard as I could have worked between the primary and the election. But
on election day, I was visiting the different precincts. I had been,
from the time the polls opened until
The polls close at seven or eight?
Seven, I think it was, or seven-thirty. And it was six then. But in the
meantime, at Watts Street School precinct—I was there that
afternoon. The polling was very good that morning. For a good many
blacks.
I don't want to sidetrack that, but it brings up an interesting issue, that you probably had as much insight on as anybody, and that's this notion of class conflict in the black community. Some suggest that it's actually greater than in the white community. That feeling runs higher. Over your life, do you see that as a big issue?
If it has been in the past, I don't think it's so
today. And in saying that, I'm not saying it has been in the
past; I don't know. Because what I have always tried to do is
move around with all people. As much as my time restraints would permit
me. Because you see a person in as many things as I was in, and on the
go and moving, things you have to do, there's only so much
time that you have to actually mingle. And I've been able to
mingle more since I retired, than I was before. And I think I have a
better feel of the pulse of the community since entering public life,
than
But in general, abstracting yourself from it, do you think this has been an issue in the so-called black middle class? There's sometimes the charge that when somebody makes it, then they forget about the people.
I'm sure that during the boycott in 1968 that that became a definite issue. And it's something that my wife had to face. Because the fact that she had organized another group. Even though this group insisted on equal representation, black and white, on the committees and things. I told her this. "The best role that you can play is that of a mediator, or arbitrator. You have the protagonists on both sides. If you line up with either side, you'll destroy your effectiveness and credibility with the other."
One group wanted there to be an all-black committee, and there was the other group of white women who had never sat with a black person in their life.
And not only that. The community, the merchants association and everybody
else—in other words, if they say you're just an
addition to the black solidarity committee, there's no reason
for us to talk with you at all. Or even negotiate. If you take the role
that you're trying to get the facts of the case, and get them
out to the public, and let the public decide. Just like Nehru I was
telling you about. The State Department told me they had to use Nehru as
their means of communication with the Russians. And the State Department
was in favor of, and understood his position and all. And it was the
only way he could be useful. Because if he was in our camp, they
wouldn't be talking with him anymore than they would direct
to us. And it was on the basis of that experience in 1956, that I knew
if they took a position for either, it would destroy their effectiveness
with the other.
Do you think you could have been as effective with the protest on one side to work against?
No. That's why, you remember, I went back and said in every stage of the building of North Carolina Mutual, and the equipment that was needed in completing its job. And I said you need all of these things. Just like that black boycott.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
In Noble Ancestry and Descendants, written by J.H.
Moore, pastor of Shiloh Baptist Church in Wilmington, NC. Printed in
1949 by the Lin
So you've got both sides pretty well worked out as far back as possible. Have you ever heard of the Mitchell family?
Yes. A reference is made in here. Here they are, Mitchells, yes. [Reads list of early families in Columbus County community from same book.] Now, this Chavis. I don't know whether this was the Chavis or whether he had connections, but you remember the Chavis in the history of North Carolina who taught the governor's children, had a school?
John Chavis? He was also a minister—if it's the same man—in a white congregation.
That's right. And many of the governors and others were students of his. There is a Chavis in this group, and it could be that he's the one or a descendant of his was the one.
There's enough there to keep historians and geneologists at work for a long while. I asked about the Mitchells because there's a black playwright in New York City, named Loftin Mitchell.
I know him, Loftin Mitchell. And his brother is blind and helped him write that. And is one of the professors at the University of Scranton.
The brother?
The brother. And he's been down here and doing research on Dr. Moore.
Well, I had correspondance with him several years ago.
This is Dr. Louis T. Mitchell.
And his brother, Loftin, who wrote that book.
I saw it. Did you ever see it?
Oh, yes. It's on the black theatre in the United States. Black drama, I think.
I saw it in Washington. At the National Theatre.
Oh, you're talking about an individual play. He also published a book, which is a history of the black theatre in the United States.
Oh, is that right?
Yes, called Black Drama.
Well, if you didn't see that play that was on Broadway in New York, and came to Washington. And President Ford and members of his cabinet went to see it and they really enjoyed it. Rockefeller went to see it. It was based in Harlem. Oh shoot! What is the name of that thing?1 And it went to Chicago and ran a long time. About four years ago. It think it's still playing some place. But it was Loftin Mitchell.
Yes, and he comes out of that community.
Oh, yes. I knew their father, John Mitchell.
Well, have you ever talked with these and others about why it is that that community was so productive of people, whether it's businessmen or playwrights, or preachers?
Well, it just seems to be something in the genes down there. I
don't know wherever it came from. Because it
didn't just start, you know.
E. Franklin Frazier in his book called, The Black Family in
the United States, he has a chapter in that book about a
community. He doesn't name it but it sounds very much like
this. Was he ever down here doing research?
Not that I know of. Probably I wasn't up and around. Unless it was when I was in school in New York. Unless it was in the late twenties. See, I was away from '27 to '32. I knew about Franklin Frazier and I knew he was at Howard University and all about his writings and all. I don't know when you were here whether you heard about the meetings that Booker Washington and DuBois, the Merricks, Moores, and Spauldings had. One that they had at the White Rock Baptist Church for a period; what was called a fact-finding conference. Have you come across anything like that?
I have documentary things, but I've never heard anybody speak of it.
Well, it was called a fact-finding conference, and it was during Booker T. Washington's time, before I came to Durham. Just like Booker T. Washington used to carry all these top-flight people to speak at Tuskegee to speak, financiers and all. And I know you've heard of his famous Atlanta speech. And they say he was really an orator. And I was old enough to know about him, but I was still on the farm in Columbus County. So I never did get to meet him.
But you heard about him in Columbus County?
Oh, yes, I heard about him, and knew when he came to Durham. They had that group of intellectuals and businessman. And, as I just mentioned, DuBois was in the group. And, in all likelihood, Franklin Frazier, if he was old enough.
He might have been a little later, but there was that tradition.
And after Booker Washington died and R.R. Moton succeeded him, he came here and would meet with these people. And when Booker Washington came, they toured the state with his lecturing. But this particular meeting that I'm referring to—just like the meeting that was called to organize the National Negro Insurance Association in 1921, I believe it was. And the National Negro Business League. Well, the National Negro Business League preceded these other organizations.
That was about in 1900.
That's right. The National Negro Business League covered all the businesses that blacks were engaged in. And then as the time passed, it branched out to undertakers, the insurance companies, grocery stores. It could have been around 1916, or 17, but they called this a fact-finding conference. I heard about it and read about it. And from what I remember from discussions, the whole idea was to take a look at the Negro community, Negro progress. Where they are and how they got there. And to try to plan or chart a course for the future.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
North Carolina Mutual used to, before it had an auditorium large enough
to, hold their meeting at White Rock Baptist Church. They will
live." I think that was his concluding statement.
And Dr. Moore picked it up from there?
Yes.
We haven't talked about a number of those figures, particularly Dr. Moore or C.C. Spaulding. In talking to you before, Dr. Moore had a heavy influence on your life.
Oh, yes. They looked to him for leadership in the area. He was a senior citizen. You know, they called Merrick, Moore and Spaulding the triumverate. I presume you've heard that referred to. And it seemed to have been a good combination. Merrick was a very personable individual, made friends easily. He was quite an extrovert. Dr. Moore was the silent thinker. And they always said still water runs deep. And that he was the thinker in the group. And C.C. Spaulding was very outgoing, agressive, extroverted. Public-relations minded. Dr. Moore was not concerned about advertising anything he did. In other words, he didn't believe in getting on the house top and shouting it: he believed in doing it for the sake of doing it, because it was the thing to do. That's why he would go, if a patient didn't have money to pay for a prescription, he would take the prescription to the drugstore, pay for it, and have it delivered to the home. I think I told you this the first day: if they were without heat, he would have a half-ton of coal sent, and paid for it. And many of his patients he never sent a bill to.
He died when? In twenty-?
'23. April 29, 1923. I think it was around twelve or twelve-thirty. I remember it as vividly as if it were today. Because I had just come from church. He lived next door to White Rock Baptist Church. And I had come out of the church and started up the steps into the house. And L.J. Spaulding was coming out. He said, "He's just passed." Although I knew he was sick, it was just so sudden, it upset me.
He was not a man—according to the stories surrounding him—who would brook much opposition from the Jim Crow world.
Well he didn't back off in talking to the whites at all. He was not—and this is an opinion of mine, from all that I heard about him, and my association with him from 1918 until he died. And seeing him talking with whites. I told you about trips we made down to North Carolina State College to see Dr. Brooks, the president of North Carolina State, when he was trying to get the Rosenwald School in in this state.
Oh, yes. You mentioned that.
And W.C. Jackson was president of the Women's College in
Greensboro. See, they were state leaders. And I would drive Dr. Moore at
nights to have meetings with them. And in what writings they were ever
able to find of him, some of them were very direct and not apologetic at
all. He didn't try to be a diplomat. It could be because of
the amount of white blood that was in him.
So Dr. Moore might have been assisted in that he was very fair.
Well, he was very fair, but his hair was not of the quality of a white person's hair.
But when he stood up and spoke directly to white people, they might have reacted differently than if he had been a black man?
Well, I think the fact that he was fair, and another thing about it: he was a thinker. And he was very logical. When he opened his mouth he had something to say. You know, there are some people who carry on a lot of conversation on just a lot of things in general. Well, he was a philosopher.
So he would weigh his words?
And I remember one thing that he said. He said, "Never repeat anything you hear that hurts." In other words, if someone tells you something about a person, gossip or anything, don't repeat it. Repeat it only if it helps.
Did he have any trouble voting do you think? Did he vote?
Let's see. He died in '23. I don't know whether blacks had started voting in Durham that early or not. I really don't know.
He ran for office, I know, for county coroner, way back in the 1880's—one of the last times it was possible in Durham for a black to run for public office. But after disfranchisement, after Wilmington race riot in '98, and so forth, it's not clear who was voting. But this is a way of getting us back into politics. And I think what's in the back of your mind when blacks started voting has to do with maybe the Durham Committee?
No. It preceeded the Durham Committee. The Durham Committee followed it and helped give vitality to it.
What's your earliest memory, then, of this political activity, organizing the community?
Well, there were a few of the leaders back there who did vote. They were
forerunners of the Durham Committee, and this is what gave rise to the
Durham Committee. They were what you might call ‘block
leaders’, or
Who was in this new generation you're thinking of now?
Well, James Taylor at North Carolina College, R.L. McDougald—see,R.L. McDougald was very fair; he was often mistaken for white. He worked on Wall Street for a while, before he came back to Durham, before he went to the navy. He was a runner, I believe they call them, a Wall Street runner. You couldn't tell him from not being white. And a lot of people in Durham didn't know he was not white. He joined the navy. I think he joined, because at that time you were drafted to the army. And, being fair, he had no problem getting into the navy.
Do you think he served in the navy as a white person?
I don't know.
That would be interesting. Because the navy was the most exclusive.
That's right. But I know that he served in the navy. And the thing about it, he never would pass for white. When he came back to Durham after his service in the Navy, it was an insult to consider his as white. He made no bones about it any time, that he was a Negro.
We're talking about the 1920s now?
Yes.
We were talking about your experience with Harlem the other day, about the new Negro movement, the Harlem Renaissance. Did that filter down to Durham? Was there a feeling here that something was changing?
Ch, yes. Because you see what was happening: so many blacks, even from Columbus Country, would go to New York. And they would come back on business, you know, the families. And that's one thing, communications, what's going on, by word of mouth, and you see people, and you hear about where they're working and things they're doing: it creats an awareness.
Do you remember R. McCants Andrews?
Ch, yes. He was the first black lawyer in Durham. First black to practice in the Durham courts. He was a Harvard man. He didn't back up for anything. I guess you've been told that before.
So he, McDougald—who else would be kind of leading the way?
Well, Dan Martin, who was one of the employees of North Carolina Mutual, was a most astute politician. Dan Martin, after the Durham Committee was formed, he was heading up the political division of the Committee. The white political leaders always sought him out.
White political leaders?
Yes. And the precinct captains and all of them. And the labor unions. And he'd go into meetings of these politicians. And he didn't mind using his profanity. "Damned if we're going to do this" or "Damned if we're going to do that" or "If you want so-and-so, you've got to do this." And the older whites resented it. But the younger whites saw that he could deliver. And that was the beginning of the different groups here. At that time, back in the thirties, the politics in Durham was controlled by a very small group of whites. And the city council was controlled by one man.
Who was he?
John Sprunt Hill. You've heard that, haven't you?
This is Watts Hill's father?
Young Watts Hill's grandfather.
Yes.
Watts Hill, Sr.'s father. And then Percy Reid, who was the county attorney, had a large following. And the Bryants were very strong. So you'd have a group of people who more or less determined the politics in this community.
So Martin would go to them?
When Martin came upon the scene, there was a clash between him and his group and them. And then an alliance was formed with the later labor union, a coalition. And they began to get more and more power. And then when they got enough power to unseat the county chairman.
This condition was between the labor union…?
And the Durham blacks.
The Durham Committee on Negro Affairs.
Yes. And they unseated the chairman of the democratic party, and put a younger, more liberal person in.
Who was that, do you remember?
Leslie Atkins. I don't remember whether he was the first one or not. But he was in the early ones. I think he would be first of the younger breed to become the chairman of the democratic committee.
Are both blacks and whites in these labor unions cooperating in this coalition, or is it just black workers?
Now, I don't mean that they had one hundred percent
cooperation, but by this coalition they got enough of them with the
black vote
The Durham Committee is established in what, 1935?
1935, I think it was. '35 or '38, but I think it was '35.
Now you say the precursor to this was people like McDougald, Dan Martin and others?
No, no, no. They were in it when it was formed.
But in the twenties?
Oh, earlier. Well, you had Buck Waller, who was a black and ran a meat market. And his market was up here on Fayetteville Street. And others up in West Durham area. Spotted around in different areas, who had a following. Businessmen would all go there. You know how people would gather to discuss things. And each one, if he controlled twenty-five or fifty votes, after all. Because the number of people who turned out and voted were not spectacular numbers, at that time. A guy could pick up twenty-five, fifty, or a hundred votes that way.
Now there's a distinction to be made here between the meat market man and somebody like Andrews.
Yeah, and McDougald and Martin.
The meat market man is a ward heeler who's selling votes.
Well, the Durham Committee, that was one of its ironclad policies: we're not for sale. We will vote for you if you take the positions that we stand for.
If there's any one person in the black community who would get credit for the Durham Committee, would it be this man, Martin?
Well, everybody recognized him as being chairman of the political
committee, and they followed his recommendations pretty closely.
Martin said this to him?
The white politician didn't know how much influence Martin had. But when the results were in, he found out.
When did John Wheeler come to Durham?
John Wheeler came in 1929. He was here at the time that the Committee was formed. He had been here about six years I guess.
Was he too junior?
He was junior. The first chairman of the Durham Committee, if I remember correctly, was C.C. Spaulding. And I think he was followed by R.N. Harris. I'm not sure of that. And then James Taylor, one of the professors at North Carolina College, was chairman for a while. And I think Stewart followed Rancher Harris. And then when Stewart was elected to the city council—now there's a gap right there I'm not certain of. I thought at one time, that M. Hugh Thompson, the lawyer, served a term as chairman of the Durham Committee between Rancher Harris and Stewart, but I'm not sure of that.
I'll have to ask Mrs. Turner about that.
Yeah, but anyway, that was the only break. Because my recollection was: C.C. Spaulding—now whether James Taylor succeeded C.C., and the Rancher Harris, or whether Rancher Harris succeeded C.C., and then James Taylor, and then Stewart, and then Wheeler.
The person who was the head of this might not perhaps be the most active. C.C. Spaulding, obviously he was too busy.
Well, he would attend the meetings, and they would have the meeting discussions and they would agree on things.
But it would be people like Martin.
Who would do the work, do the foot work.
What about Conrad Pearson?
Conrad Pearson was active.
Do you remember an attorney named Cecil McCoy?
Oh, yes. Cecil McCoy and Conrad Pearson were the ones who brought the first suit against the University of North Carolina for admission of Raymond Hocutt.
That's why I mentioned his name. I wanted to ask you about that case, if you could remember that.
Oh, yes, I remember the Hocutt Case. That was written up, you know. They got plenty of publicity on that. And then Hastie, Bill Hastie, came down here, you know, and argued the case. And, man, he was so smooth in that courthouse. All of them had to respect him.
This is William Hastie from the NAACP?
Yessir.
Can you reconstruct your feelings about this, what it meant to you as a young person in this happening? It must have seemed revolutionary, perhaps?
No, I can't say that I considered it revolutionary. You know,
the older people would probably be more inclined. But there's
something about youth
Were you seen as kind of a hothead in those days?
No. I'll tell you. You see, there are some people, if they reach a position of leadership, it's something they go and seek, and work hard for it. I don't know where it originated or how it started, or what caused me to do it, but I always had a philosophy, I guess, of going to prove my worth. I'd rather the job seek the man, than the man seek the job? And I guess back of that is a feeling that if the people put you up, you have a pretty good foundation, a pretty solid foundation. But if you, in other words, sell yourself, it doesn't mean that once you're in a position of leadership, you won't assume the responsibility of that leadership. I feel that it takes all kinds of people to make our world to form society. You couldn't do much with all hotheads; we'd always have revolutions.
How do you think other people saw you in the 1930s?
Well, during the black boycott—the black boycott came the year after I retired. But I was still considered very influential in the community.
This is '67?
'68. And I attended some of the black boycott meetings.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
And this is repeating again, but to bring it into context, I also spoke my piece about Louis Austin and how people would criticize him and his editorials. I said that I don't agree with every editorial that Louis Austin writes or the position he takes, but I will defend to the last his right to do it, or say it.
Were there others in the black community that you disagreed with or were sometimes critical of other than Austin or Fuller or Ruffin?
It wasn't my manner of trying to mold them into my mold, because I thought that they had a role to play and I thought that it was a necessary role. Have you ever had change take place without reformers? And haven't there been changes to take place that nobody would want to go back to the old way? Either group? So I don't know whether it's because of my background, my readings, my exposures, and just my meditation and thinking. But there is a place for everything. We may not always know what that place is, or how important it is, but there's a place for it. You look at nature, out that window there, or that door, and you see those trees growing. And who is it that considers himself wise enough to comprehend the scope of things, and say it should be this way, or, it should be that way, or, this person should be doing that. So I feel that I have a right to my position, and you have just as much right to yours as I have to mine. Now the question is, can we sit down and talk and not both try to talk at the same time? While one's talking, let the other one listen. And if so, then there's a possibility of our seeing eye to eye.
Did that happen? Did you have meetings with men?
Many times that happened.
Would someone like Fuller take a different position in talking to you than he would take in public, for example? Or Ruffin?
We didn't talk personally, individually, many times. But at times when we worked together, it was not this clashing going on.
Do you think that on their part that they were aware of this philosophy?
I think the word would get around as to what kind of person I was, what I
would or would not do. I think that. And I think that they understood,
because I don't remember any of them overtly, or in the
press, attacking me. Louis Austin attacked me once in one of his
editorials, and called me some pretty bad names. But it
didn't affect my relationship with him. And I always said
that"the Carolina Times was one of
Durham's true assets, and so was Louis Austin." And
I remember when they got ready to honor him, I headed up the group. And
I think I personally raised more money for the purse than any group. I
think I personally raised almost twenty-five percent of what was raised.
And I went to some of the white people, who, at one time, were very
critical of him. I wrote a letter. I sat down and I thought it through
well. At least I thought so, and evidently did. I pointed out what it
meant—and made the statement in there—that
regardless of our differences of opinion, when we consider the assets
and the liabilities of the changes that have taken place and the things
that had been prevented in this community because of the Carolina Times, he was deserving of this kind of recognition.
I've forgotten how much we raised, but I think I raised
twelve hundred or more dollars for the purse.
Is there any reason to believe at all that Louis Austin might have
Well, he and I never clashed. Even after that editorial I didn't go and see him and criticize him anything about it. I just accepted it.
In effect, though, do you think it might have worked that the powerful whites would see this conflict and therefore maybe be willing to settle for an area of compromise? That Austin or Fuller or whatever could keep them stirred up and that they would have accepted more than if they hadn't been around? And that that gave you some ground to work with?
I guess from what you're saying, maybe it raised a question—I don't know. But I'll put it this way. It could be that I was seen as a stablizing influence in the community, by both groups.
But Austin or Fuller never came to you and said, "Look, we'll raise hell, and then you'll say this, and then we'll get this out of it."
No. There were never any deals made. That is, between me and any of them.
This may get us back to the mayoral race. That was 1971?
I think it was. There's one other thing, though, before we go to that. We were talking about Ben Ruffin and things.
I remember UOCI. These were a group of people, low income and so forth,
and so on. And they got together and wanted to do something to improve
their lot. It was the United Organization of Community Improvement. And
they came up with the idea that they wanted to get in business. And what
kind of business they could get in. And they decided a grocery store,
because all had to buy groceries.
The idea is to provide jobs through industry here.
Yes. So, I have never let differences prevent me from doing a good deed when the opportunity comes to do it.
In the mayoral campaign were there wide and deep differences in the black community over that?
No. I think the only situation there—and I'm guessing, which I don't like to do, because you can do an injustice to people. But I think the people whose full support I did not get was because of their allegiance to Hawkins and commitments to him before I became a candidate.
This is in the black community?
That's right. Because I got very good support on the whole, from the black community. And with him getting white votes, how could I have beat him by twenty-six votes in the primary? And he was so disappointed that he didn't come to election headquarters that night.
After the primary?
After the election at the primary. See, all the candidates usually meet there and have statements to make. He didn't come to make any statement. It was such a surprise to him, I guess. And the campaign for the primary was kept on a high level. If there was any race issue injected into it, I never heard of it. It didn't surface.
The fact that he didn't show up, did you ever think deep down that he was capable of that? And we left off talking about this sour note in the closing hours of the general campaign where race did apparently become something of an issue.
Yes. Well, who injected it or why, but I do know it came out over the
radio, three radio stations. "Black millionaire running a close
race against a white realtor." And the UPI definitely told me,
because I contacted them, they said well they were running it because
they "thought it was authentic, that it was true."
Because the information came to
As you look back on it, do you think that made the difference in the outcome of the election?
I'm pretty sure it did. Because people are still telling me they're sorry I didn't win. And some of the people who went to the beach and went fishing that Saturday said they were "so sure that I was going to win that they didn't stay here to vote." And when they came back and heard what the returns were, they really "felt like kicking themselves." And these were white people telling me this. They just felt that I was going to win. Whether that's true, or whether it wasn't I have no way of judging. But these were things that were unsolicited by me, and I didn't even know. Because they were not people that I asked, "Did you vote for me?" They just came back and by their own confession, they were surprised and disappointed.
Was there any other evidence of something being injected into the campaign up to this point?
No. I think it was Wednesday before I found out how much was going on,
and how many places he was going to campaign, or those who were working
for him were going to campaign. I told you about East Durham, down here,
where I got a call as to what was happening down there. And I know that
I did not go back to the tobacco factories between the primary and the
election. And I know that he and his workers did go back. Either he and his workers, or he or his
workers, because I was told.
You think that could have made a difference?
It could have made a difference. Because, you know, voters, they feel
that if you want their vote, you ought to pay them some attention.
If you had to do it over, do you think that was a tactical problem?
Oh, there were things I recognized as weaknesses in what I did between the primary and the election. I could have improved a great deal.
Do you have any regrets about not winning?
No, because after people came back afterwards, about how sorry they were, and whether or not I was going to run again. I said, "You've had one chance to vote for me, and see what happens. Why should I consider running again?" And another thing: some people also—because I definitely had some people whose word I trusted, especially some of the white voters—said they really wanted me to stay on the Board of County Commissioners. They felt that I was needed there. And that everybody seemed to be happy with the services I rendered, as evidenced by their vote every time I faced an election, whether it was in the primary or the election. Because I did not resign when I ran for mayor. See, the terms overlapped. The county commissioners were elected in the even years, and members of the city council and the mayor in odd years. So I went on back and completed my term. And then later, though, the thing wouldn't die, and people still kept urging me to run again, and it really was more so than it was for the first time. More people were urging me to run again.
For the same office?
For the mayor. And it reached the point where I really considered it. And
I had a coupon printed in the paper, raising the question: Should I
decide to run for mayor? If you would support me, return this form. And
they came from all sections and people. And there was so many,
'til I made up my mind to run. But in the meantime, through a
medical checkup, it
He had put me on a strict diet.
This is diabetes?
Yes, that's right. I was getting along pretty well I thought.
But he delayed. He said it bothered him, because he thought if I ran
that I would win, and he was afraid that if I did, it might break me
down. Because he said he knew what a serious nature I was, and how
sincere, and how I took things seriously. This is what he told me
afterwards, because I didn't hear from him until I had to
call him, because I had to make up my mind, and I couldn't
wait any longer, because I had to file the next day. This was on a
Sunday that I reached him and asked him for his opinion. He said could
he come by and talk with me that afternoon. I think it was around one
o'clock or three o'clock, something like that. So
he did. He said, "Well, here's why. In the first
place, because you are black and would be the first black mayor, you
would feel that it was encumbered upon you to solve Durcham's
problems." And you know it had its problems. Businesses were
moving from downtown and things were going down. And he said,
"You wouldn't leave your work at your office;
you'd bring it home with you. And I just think that that
would be too much and you'd feel, as I said, that being a
black mayor, you wouldn't want not to succeed." My
wife was sitting in here, right in this room. And I said,
"Well, Dr. Johnson, a person's got to die from
something. Is there anything bad about dying in service?
Couldn't worse things happen?" And he said,
"Well, you know, I don't know. If your health failed
you and you were incapacitated for the rest of your life, and became a
burden on your family, that might be considered." And you know,
as I thought about that—because I knew so many people who
were in rest homes,
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
So that afternoon I wrote a statement to the paper, saying while I was
seriously considering being a candidate, upon the advise of my
physician, I would not be a candidate for mayor. I took it to the paper
that evening, and it came out in the Herald the next
morning. Because the filing date was at noon, I think, that day. So
that's what kept me from running. I was going to run. I had
made up mind I was going to run, because of the kind of urging that I
was getting. And people who had not voted for me before. And people
still, until now. I said, "You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
At my age now, and you had a chance if you wanted me
This wasn't generally known in the campaign? These were your private ideas?
These were things that I had made up my mind I was going to do the second time. After I had so many people urging me to do it, and I had made up my mind that I would do it, I began thinking of the things that I would do, and probably the things that would be said during my campaign. And I believe until this day that I could have won.
Of course if you did those things, your doctor might have been right.
What was generally the reaction when you accounced that you wouldn't?
Oh, people expressed their regrets. And a lot of it was hard for me to
disabuse even though I gave my reason, which was the
reason. I had won in the primary for the third term and withdrew before
the election. You know I told you about that because I got these offers
from Boston and New York for consulting services. And I knew that if I
were going to be a public servant and asked people to support me, I owed
it to them to be present to represent them at the meetings, as well as
interim. You know, because problems come up between meetings. And that I
could serve them.
That you withdrew on the mayoral race?
Because of my doctor's advise.
Your doctor was the key figure in your deciding not to run. Was there one person who was most influential in moving you to run, both the first time and the second time? Somebody who stands out?
No. Just people on the street would meet me and say it.
Who called you on the phone: was there anybody who was kind of your closest political advisor?
Well, there were some of the people who probably would have done more
than they did, had it not been that they already committed themseves.
See, my mistake in the first election—another mistake I
made—was not to have let it be known earlier, or not to have
gone to the people. Just like they were about my running for county
commissioner the first time. I knew there were hazards, being black. And
the current Mayor never would say whether he was going to run again or
not. So I wrote him a letter and asked him whether or not he was going
to run. And I wanted him to be the first to know that I was considering
running if he didn't run. Well, the people wanted someone to
run against him. And if the contest had been between him and me, I would
beat him. But in the meantime, the whites in particular, as well as the
blacks, were tired of the then Mayor. I'm sorry. This part I
certainly
You want me to shut this off?
Yes. Well, you already have that part in there.
Well, you were asking me about people and names and things, it gets you
into that kind of thing.
Let it go at this: I have reasons to feel that I could have defeated him. And in the meantime, since Hawkins was involved, and everybody knows he was involved, he knows that he contacted people and had their commitments and I know it, too. Because too many of them told me that. And that's why they would have been willing to support me, if they had known before they had committed themselves. What they were concerned with: they thought they had had enough of the previous administration and wanted a change. They knew that I was a county commissioner, see, and was already on the board. And it never entered their thinking that I would consider switching. And, therefore, as to the choices and possibilities, they felt if there were going to be a contest between the incumbant and a new man, that the only person on the scene—because he was already on the city council—who looked like he'd have the best chance of defeating the incumbant, was Hawkins. And therefore, they told him, if he would run they would support him. Not only in the matter of trying to influence others, but financially. So he not only had the support from the influence, but from their financial backing. Well, you see, that limited my possibilities.
Did Incumbent answer your letter? You mentioned you wrote him.
He wrote me back and thanked me for writing him and letting him know that
if he were running that I would not run.
Was he kind of playing a game with you, do you think?
I think he was really thinking of running. He really, up until that point, was thinking of running. And then Hawkins, maybe a day or two after that, went to Incumbent and told him definitely that he was going to run for mayor. And, of course, then Incumbent decided he would not run.
Did he support Hawkins then?
If he didn't support him, he didn't support me either. Because he had no reason to want to support me.
You see, where you've been accustomed to white leadership and the premium you put on white leadership. Running for city council is one thing, because you're one among many. But if you're running for mayor, you're running for the number one spot. You're not running for one of six spots.
It's highly symbolic, isn't it?
That's right. You're running for the top spot, the one spot. And that calls for a lot of soul searching on the part of the people. Just like when I ran for county commissioner the first time. From the most unexpected sources of whites, to come up tell me very frankly, very openly, "Well, Spaulding, I've never voted for a Nigra before, but I'm going to vote for you." For county commissioner.
These would be white people at all levels? Leaders?
Yeah. And from East Durham, textile mill person. So, I think you know when you say textile mill what relationship in the thinking there is. I just mentioned that person, but a number of people who had never voted for a black person before, were going to vote for me. And that had to be true because the polls showed it.
You think up until the time of the black millionaire smear?
That turned a lot of blacks off.
The black tobacco workers, do you think they were in your camp?
And low income people, and people in housing projects, and things of that nature. Because you see there was already a feeling amongst some blacks that the blacks at one level didn't have empathy for blacks at a lower level. When I say lower, I don't mean the matter of character or anything else, but the matter of income.
Where was the Durham Committee in all of this? It's no longer called the Durham Committee on Negro Affairs.
Well, the Durham Committee endorsed my candidacy, but I wouldn't say that everybody in the Committee supported my candidacy enthusiastically because of their previous commitments. As I indicated two or three times, I was late in letting anybody know that I was thinking about running. As I remember correctly now, it was not too far in advance of the deadline for filing time. Without referring to any records and being able to pinpoint it, I think just in looking back, that probably my first contact, or even the letter that I wrote to Incumbent Mayor, might have been about a couple of weeks before the time that I needed to make my decision.
How influential, in your judgement, was John Wheeler in politics?
Very influential. Because, one thing about it, John was very
I suppose it's a matter of public knowledge; I don't really know. Was Wheeler a strong supporter in your campaign for mayor?
I think he was. I would never say that Wheeler would lie about anything. And I think if he was part of a group that would give you his endorsement, that he wouldn't go back on it.
And he was head of the Committee then.
There was some debate in the Committee, so I understand. I was not a
member of the Committee at that time. I am now, because I'm
head of a precinct. When I went to the Committee and asked for its
support, I understand they had quite a problem trying to decide what to
do. Because they knew Hawkins was running, and yet it was the Durham
Committee on the affairs of black people, now what are you going to do?
There's a black running for an office and you have no reason
for not doing it. Are you going to desert him for a white candidate? I
think that had some bearing in its decision to support me. I
can't say that was true, but I can see how it could be true.
If there's any record of any of the Spauldings, after the name
of Spaulding originated, ever becoming slaves, I have not found or heard
That land base in that area?
That's right. That probably also supports the statement that I
read from the Noble Ancestry about being known as free
issues? Because they were never slaves. That was what it was. Does that
make sense to you?
Oh, yes.
"With your record and your standing, why would you waste your time running for county commissioner? Why aren't you running for the state legislature; why aren't you running for congress?" And I said, "Well, first place, my roots go down here. And this is one area that I have neglected more than others." Because I've been very active on the state level, on the national level, and international level. Except in my activities with North Carolina Mutual, wherever it went. But to actually come right down face-to-face, person-to-person, I haven't done it. And just like building a house on stilts, rather than a foundation. Because your basic foundation is your local community.
Had you been precinct chairman before?
I'd never been.
But had you been, say, before you ran for mayor the second time—hypothetically—would it have made a big difference?
It would have made a big difference. It could have made a big difference.
In a sense, you're more active, politically, now, after the fact than you were before.
Because I wasn't politically active at all before, except to
go and vote. Because at the time I wasn't mixing my business
with politics, because sometimes you can really make enemies
Before we had this interlude talking about the Spaulding family, we were talking about the mayoral race and about John Wheeler….
Did you ever see the article I wrote about his death?
No.
I'll see if I can find a copy of that. But go on with what you were saying.
There's quite an aura that hangs around him. And, in fact, he was one of the persons they wanted interviewed in this project, and there are three or four people in the community, perhaps, who knew him a long time, and you are one of them.
Well, he and I were roommates when he came to Durham.
I was wondering if you'd talk about him a little bit.
You were roommates. And your initial impression? Just your feelings about him, and what you think was the difference he made in Durham? How Durham might have been a different place without him?
Don't I say that there? [Referring to article Spaulding has written.]
Well, maybe not as fully as if you just talked about it. Let me
He was very much out in front, though, and the appointments he got and the positions he served, and connections that he had.
He never ran for public office, though, did he?
Well, some people say there was a reason for that. Sometimes you make a lot of enemies, you know, when you're fighting a cause. What's the old saying? When you attack city hall.
You can't fight city hall.
And things of that nature. Now I'm not saying this as my opinion, but I'm saying it as an opinion that has been held by some. First, John was somewhat of a proud person. And I think that it's necessary to have some pride or self-pride. Otherwise you won't do anything much. A person without pride, what do you have to appeal to? I'm not sure that John would have been willing to offer himself to the public, to the electorate, if he had reasons to feel that he wouldn't come out victorious.
And you think that it's unlikely that he would have?
Because he had rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Because of the positions he took, and would have to take. Even as chairman of the Durham Committee.
When you first met him in 1929, did you see this in him?
Well, he wasn't involved in politics. He hadn't gotten involved in community affairs or anything else. He had just finished Morehouse; he came here right out of school. And teller at Mechanics and Farmers Bank was his first job.
But this strength and aggressiveness—if that's the right word?
Well, it hadn't shown then. Because until he became active in community affairs and activities—and then you see it was long time between the time that he came here, and his becoming chairman of the Durham Committee. Which was really the battlefront for the Negro causes.
If D.B. Martin, as you indicated, was the man early on, would Wheeler….?
He made a lot of enemies. Dan Martin would have never run for office. With all of the political force that he had, acumen and all, I doubt seriously that Dan would've ever run for public office, if he'd lived,
Was Wheeler aware of this? That it was unlikely that he could ever come out ahead?
Well, I don't know. Because it's hard to tell what a person's aware of, unless you sit down and discuss it with him.
That's what I'm wondering, if he ever sat down and talked about these things.
Well, he knew how people felt about him, naturally. Because in conversations and all, the battles and the run-ins that he had.
Was he contented in that role? Was it true that he was directing things behind the scenes as much as anyone?
I think that definitely that he was, very much. Well, you take the
president of the United States—all of them. They'd
always send up trial balloons to find out which way the wind was blowing
before they went out there themselves. Roosevelt was a master at it. And
so have they been all the way down. And Carter has his cabinet members
to come out and say some things first—especially if the
thing's going to be very delicate. He
And you think John ever sent out those feelers?
I wouldn't know, and I wouldn't want to speculate.
Is it fair to say that without him the Durham Committee may not have become what it was?
Let me say this. Not because it was John Wheeler or anything else, but I think anybody in the role that John Wheeler was in. If he had in mind running for public office, he probably wouldn't take the stand and be as contentious and as tenacious.
[END OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE B]
He likes to succeed in what he's trying to do and where he's trying to lead people. And sometimes, even no matter how much ambition you may have, if you're going to put the good of the public above your own selfish interest, you may have to sacrifice yourself for the good of the public.
Do you see him as a kind of sacrificial hog, then? In black politics in the South?
Well, I think that if he was just wholly political and a striver for
public office, that he might have been more careful about some things,
and positions that he took, than he would have otherwise, because
I was really more interested in your assessment of his role and the process of politics.
I think he served a role that was needed and that he was peculiarly fitted to serve it.
It's a striking point as to how he was invulnerable, to a certain extent from white sanctions, because he had independent financial base. Do you see that as true, in a larger sense, for the whole Committee?
Well, I think it's not because that. Afterall, his family—he came from a very proud family. I forget now whether his father or his mother was from Kentucky.
His father, I think.
And his parents were well-educated. His father was president of Kittrell College before he came to North Carolina Mutual. He always stood well. I don't know how far he could trace his lineage, but back to his parents, and probably beyond that, they were upstanding, straight-forward people. And it was a part of his heritage.
If we look at the Durham Committee, it's been Dan Martin.
He was the political arm of it.
And it's been Wheeler, and it's been Stewart. It's been a number of figures who were associated with black financial institutions who did not owe their existence.
No chairman of the Durham Committee on the Affairs of Black People survival depended on the white community, or was on the payroll.
Political scientists are fascinated with this Committee, because they think that it brought the vote to Durham long before other Southern cities.
The economic situation here: here you have three black institutions that
control over two hundred million dollars in assets in a city with less
than fifty thousand blacks. Now, can you duplicate that anywhere? And
for years—I don't know what it is
now—Durham had the highest per capita home-ownership, black
home-ownership, than anywhere else in the nation. Because with these
financial institutions and making loans to blacks, when they
couldn't get them from white institutions. And had it not
been for these institutions here, the home-ownership in this
community…Because what happened—I think I told
you. When we got to the state of Pennsylvania, no blacks there could go
downtown and get more than five thousand dollar loans from any
institutions. It didn't matter what security they had. And
that was the city of brotherly love, in Philadelphia. When North
Carolina Mutual entered there in 1938, right just coming out of a
Depression, it set aside a half-million dollars to invest in mortgage
loans for Negroes in the city of Philadelphia. Well now a half-million
dollars today, with inflation and everything else, doesn't
sound like much. But a half-million dollars in 1938, in one city, and
for blacks? And we weren't operating in Philadelphia three
years before that white market, those lending institutions, began to
open up.
Now that a lot of these problems have been faced and conquered and are a
thing of the past, in part, that is if one sees the North Carolina
Mutual as a creature, to a certain extent, of the Jim Crow world where
there
Yeah, I know where you're leading; go ahead
What's the future of this institution?
Who knows what the future is of any institution? I'll say what John Conner said.
Secretary of Commerce?
Yes. I was looking at that statement. It was in one of those things I brought down here. He spoke at the luncheon banquet.
When was this?
At the dedication of our home office.
In '66?
Yes. [Searches for document. Spaulding reads.]
"The Secretary of Commerce, John Conner, in his address referred
to the dedication as a'proud moment to the citizens of
Durham, for North Carolinians, for Southerners, and for all Americans,
especially for our Negro citizens. For we dedicate here today a house
that they built. And from the beginning they built their house upon a
rock.' The Secretary continued, ‘This great
company has been tested. It has weathered two World Wars, a major
Depression (when a lot of white companies failed, when the banks were
closed by Roosevelt; only two banks re-opened in Durham, and Mechanics
and Farmers bank was one of them; and other whites had to be
reorganized), numerous recessions, and worst of all prejudices and
discrimination as ancient as civilization itself. It not only has
weathered every storm and overcome every handicap, each time it has
emerged stronger than ever. It was built through the faith of the
policyholders, no less than through the faith of the active workers in
this organization.’ Secretary Conner concluded,
Now unless we are ready and willing to admit that the present generation
of leadership at North Carolina Mutual are less competent than their
predecessors, then we have no cause to have great concern about its
inability to weather the storms of the future. I know that situations
are different and all. But none of the people who organized it knew
anything about life insurance. People were predicting that the company
would fail. And it would have failed in that first year, had these three
men not taken the money out of their pocket to pay that first claim. The
crisis came. Because their integrity, their determination, and all of
the other adjectives you want to use, was such that they were not going
to betray the confidence of their policyholder by failing to pay that
beneficiary. And that was a turning point in this company. I
don't know whether it was my last report to policyholders, or
the one before that, that I referred to the fact that North Carolina
Mutual had to make brick without straw. But they did it. Sometimes
necessity is the mother of invention, if you have the kind of people
with it. Whether or not future generations are willing to make the
sacrifices. See, one thing about North Carolina Mutual, and the attitude
of the generations that have gone before, they were more interested in
building an institution
But isn't that the point, if the barriers are no longer there, if one no longer has to be up against it, is it possible to keep that same level of dedication?
Well the thing about it is, if you have the stuff in you to want to build, to build for people. But if you're thinking only in terms of yourself, no, you're not going to do it. And I can't foretell whether they're going to do it. I think they have as good an opportunity—and it should be better—to survive some of the things that those who'd gone before had to come through.
But isn't there kind of a dilemma? If America changes so that race becomes less an issue?
Well, if race becomes less an issue, why shouldn't North Carolina Mutual have more white policyholders?
Then at some point it would lose its ethnic identity?
Well, now, you were talking about would it survive as a company. Whether it will survive as it is ethnically, I can't give you an answer to that.
I was thinking about this interesting situation with the black colleges in North Carolina. Do you see any parallel in that?
That's what I don't know. There's a stage in history for everything as it is. And as those stages change, it no longer serves a purpose. Some organizations that were ever so essential during their day and time, and probably without them, you'd have a different civilization than you have now. There have been many times when the question has been raised on whether the NAACP had served its usefulness, its day and generation. But the NAACP still seems to find something to do, although it's had more difficulty getting financed. As far as the need for its services, it still seems to be. And the same thing with the Urban League. If I could believe that people are innately good, and always strive for the higher good, and that the majority was going to do that, I would have one view. But I find, as I go back through history, and look at the number of people being killed in Iran today, and how Idi Amin's atrocities are there, I agree with the man who said, "Man's inhumanity to man makes countless millions mourn." Human nature, does it change that much? We put on a certain veneer in our civilization and all, but when the chips are down, when a person is threatened, what do they do? Go right back to that beast.
So you think that the Mutual is kind of a social institution among things like the Urban League and NAACP that will have to be evervigilant?
You've got to justify your position. And I don't
know but
And yet you're not too optimistic about the future, are you?
Yes. I'm optimistic about the future. Because I look back over
civilizations. And I think I mentioned this: a lecture at the University
of Michigan. If you draw a chart, you'll find that whether
it's in the economy or in civilizations or what, it moves in
waves, ups and downs. Sometimes it's pretty steep, you know,
and all. But if you draw a curve through those waves, as I see it,
it's constantly moving upward rather than downward. We have a
more humane society today than we had hundreds of years ago.
The United States government didn't believe it.
So when it comes to this matter, after all. The downfall of people and nations is caused by their own doings.
What do you think about the economy at large? What do you think about the free enterprise system?
Well, I look at it this way. And I know what I'm about to say
[END OF TAPE 3, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 4, SIDE A]
And this person said, 'Oh that isn't anything;
don't worry about that; that isn't anything I
can't take care of." And because he had confidence
in this person, and knew him, he no longer was worried. And sure enough,
it wasn't anything, and he straightened it out. I
don't know what it was, some problem. And another thing; I
guess this has some relevance. A man at a sawmill had something to be
fixed. And he sent for a mechanic to come and fix it. And he just took
his hammer and hit two or three places and listened to the sound and
all, and checking a few things. He had a wrench and a hammer, and sure
enough he found where it was, and he tightened a bolt, then told him to
try it now. And it worked. He went away and he sent his bill,
twenty-five dollars and fifty cents. The man asked him to itemize it. He
said, "Fifty cents for tightening the bolt, and twenty-five
dollars for knowing which bolt to tighten."
In this matter of change over three-quarters of a century, in the twentieth century, the technology obviously is something.
Oh, yes. Technology is responsible for more people being in
On the matter of social change, what would you tell those grand-children, things they take for granted now, like technology? Like going to a restaurant and eating, and travelling across the country and staying in the Holiday Inn or whatever. Is that the most dramatic part for your generation, in changes in race relations, or what?
I'm sure you know it's hard for a person to put himself in someone else's place and say what to them. Because when you live through a thing, see, it's gradual. And just how you're affected is one way (different) from being catapulted into something suddenly. Whatever it is. The matter of being shocked and not being shocked depends upon the suddeness of it. And just as I said, one reason parents can't communicate with children is the age gap and technological gap and everything else. Well there's the social gaps. I think Norman Cousins put it this way, "Man has exalted change in everything but himself." He still wants to abide by the old status quo, old way of doing things. Technologically we've advanced so rapidly and man adjusts, or changes his attitudes, so slowly that you have a misfit, out of joint. Attitudes can't adjust as rapidly as the technological age requires it to. So you find people going off into drugs and off into all these other things. They're looking for escapes, something to break the monotony. They're floundering; they don't know; they can't find themselves. Because of their environment. It's so sudden, so complex.
Would you have believed, though, in the nineteen fifties, well let's say even in the nineteen sixties that within ten years that some of these barriers would break down? Little things: being able to eat and go to theatres?
Yes, well I'm sure of that. Just like I said, three years
Do you take those things for granted now? It's been not even a quarter of your life. When you walk in the Jack Tar Hotel now, do you still find yourself thinking about a time when you couldn't do those things?
No, I'm passed on to thinking about something else.
Do you think that whites have changed that rapidly, too? That is that everybody takes it for granted now?
Oh, I think most of us, in the matter of public accommodations now. Especially those of us who are not provincial, who haven't been anywhere and haven't been exposed. I'm sure there are some people—some of these public housing things of that nature—whose world is still that small.
But in general would you agree that the so-called civil rights revolution, what it used to mean: integration, that that's behind us, and that we're looking to something else now?
Now you ask me questions that I don't have any thought-out answers to, and I'm just reacting, responding without any thought as to whether it makes any sense or not.
That's the way I want it.
I'm not so sure what we want.
Well the problem is not integrating at Woolworth's now.
I think you asked me what we want next.
What do we need next? If the civil rights movement is over and yet there's not equality.
I think we need to search out the things that are universal, as to time
and place, and circumstances. I think we need to do as much of that.
Because those are the things we're going to have to adjust
to. And those are the things we're going to have to come back
to. We say truth is relative. Well, yes, truth is relative. But I think
there is a truth that is static, and that's
what we're searching for. We haven't reached it.
There's so much we don't know. We talk about all
that we've learned. And there's some people who
say there's more yet to know, than all of the books and
everythings else that have passed. And you hear people talking about
there are more scientists alive today than during the whole past. It
just means, I don't know what there is out there
that's yet to be unfolded. Jack Kennedy was talking about
putting man on the moon. He said in ten years. And I was down there on
Cape Canaveral to see Apollo 11 take off and land on the moon. And Neil
Armstrong to get out and walk on the moon. "One giant step for
man", what was it? Anyway. Fifteen years before that we
didn't even have the concept of wanting to put a man on the
moon. We didn't know what we wanted. But in the unfolding of
things—I guess what I'm saying, without being a
Darwin—things evolve. We either have evolution or revolution.
Sometimes if evolution moves too slow we have revolution. If it moves
too slowly. But I think that things have to change.
To bring us back to a very mundane level—I talked about the business community with you a moment ago—is it still possible for a black child in America to move up through the ranks? Is this American Dream still aviable one?
I thought you were going to ask me, is it possible for a black child to become president of the United States.
Well, what do you think?
I don't think it's impossible. Now the difference between possible and probable. Fifteen years ago, you wouldn't have thought that Andrew Young would be ambassador to the United Nations. I guess there are contradictions in a good many of the things I've said, and it's because we're not capable of being omniscient enough to be consistent.
I'm just wondering, as the old racial barriers have fallen, that at the same time there are structural barriers there that have nothing to do with race, that make it more difficult for people to move up than it might have been in an earlier time—now this is just speculation; I want you to react to it. So that you get a situation where people can be locked into the bottom, into these ghettoes that we talked about, but not for racial reasons.
How do we know that they are locked in permanently? Ten years ago, what was our attitude toward the Arabs? Did we consider them significant as a nation? Did they know what they had? Did they know that they could bring America to her knees, an industrial complex to its knees? Did they know that?
No. They clearly didn't.
What woke them up? And when it dawned on them, it shocked this nation,
didn't it? When that oil was cut off. Our planes go by: oil.
Our ships, our military depends upon oil. Our industrial complex depends
upon oil. And now we're courting them. Vance goes to Saudi
Arabia, Blumenthal goes to Saudi Arabia. That's why I think
anyone who attempts to be a prophet today has to be a wiser person tham
I am. We can speculate. I think of some of the things I've
put in the time capsule at North Carolina Mutual—so obsolete
now. And that was, oh, not too many years ago, to be
Well, some people see this as a crisis now. That if you could wave a magic wand and remove all racism throughout the land, that there would still be this problem with black persons at the bottom. And it wouldn't be for racial reasons that they couldn't get unlocked.
Well, I don't know about that.
That the American economy is not going to be able to accommodate them.
Man thinks he can control everything. But when the floods come and the
tornadoes come, and
It's what was in my mind. I was thinking, say, in 1931, the day after C.C. Spaulding had been beaten in a drugstore in Raleigh, if you had gone to sleep and awakened in 1979, you know.
That's why I say, this matter of placing limits. And to make predictions, to a certain extent, you may be placing limits. I believe in open-endedness.
If we can't predict the future of the world, what about the next ten years fo Asa Spaulding?
I wish I knew.
What are your immediate goals?
To try to get my autobiography written
Trying to get some supper here.
And hope that it'll be worth the effort.
Is your health good now?
Pretty good. I'm still going.
The sugar?
It's under control. I'm not on any medication. It's controlling by diet.
If somebody put an ad in the paper saying, ‘please clip out this coupon if you would support Asa Spaulding for mayor’ and they sent those back in, what would you feel about that?
You know, I stopped saying that I won't do anything. My wife
and I often talk about it. People ask me to do this and ask me to do
that, and my first inclination and impulse is to say, "No. I
feel I've done
Maybe this is an unfair question, but what's been the most satisfying of all those things that you haven't been cut off from?
All the things I've done have been satisfying.
Nothing stands out above everything else?
I don't know. Because you measure different things by different yardsticks I guess. And it comes back to a sense of values. I said a moment ago, I think, that an act or a deed, you don't know how far-reaching that can be, or the word that you speak to a child or somebody else— you don't know how it will affect his life and the course it will take. I don't measure things in monetary values. It's service. There again, in rendering service, you don't know where it means most. I know people who have influenced my life. Some may have known and some may not have known they were influencing it. That's why I told you, I try not to hold things against anybody. Why waste your time and energy for that? You suffer more than the person against whom you hold it. Isn't this a good stopping point?
I think it is.
END OF INTERVIEW