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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview C-0013-3, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Asa T. Spaulding was born in rural North Carolina in 1902, but his scholastic aptitude soon removed him from the farm where he spent his childhood. After a high school education in Durham, North Carolina, Spaulding earned a degree from New York University and received training as an actuary at the University of Michigan. He returned to Durham to take a position at the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company, a historically African American company. Spaulding eventually held its presidency, and before, during, and after attaining this leadership position, used his influence to advance the interests of the African American community. Spaulding remembers some of those efforts in this interview, including an unsuccessful try for the mayoralty in Durham and his support for a community grocery store. At the heart of this interview, sharing space with Spaulding and his relatively conservative approach to civil rights agitation, are other African American and white civil rights leaders Spaulding worked with, including the fiery but effective Dan Martin, the organizer Howard Fuller, educator Charles R. Moore, and John Wheeler, who helmed the Durham Committee on Negro Affairs. Spaulding's discussion of the committee, as well as North Carolina Mutual, highlights the importance of Durham's African American organizations in sustaining a vibrant black community, and their uncertain future in a changing state. Researchers and students interested in economic empowerment, community organizing, and African American business will find much of interest in this interview.
Researchers and students might also consult the two other interviews with
Spaulding in this collection, C-0013-1 and C-0013-2. Those interested in
learning more about the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company and black
business in the South might turn to the interviewer's book, Black Business in the New South: A Social History of the North
Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company.
Asa T. Spaulding, the first African American actuary in North Carolina and former president of the North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company, remembers and reflects on community activism in Durham, North Carolina.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
We had never been able to get a black even nominated for the county
commissioner's board. Lincoln Hospital had problems getting
aid from the county. And one of the trustees came to me to see if I
would run for county commissioner, because they felt that without a
voice on the board, the chances were that the doors of the hospital
would be closed. He put it to me this way. He said, "You owe it
to the community. You're the only person who would have any
semblance of a chance of being elected. And for you to refuse, it would
be turning your community down." Well, you know,
that's something to put on your conscience. Especially with
all the sickness of my family, and all my children were born in Lincoln
Hospital. So I thought about it, and I said, well maybe it's
true. And here's a good chance for me to find out whether the
demonstration that took place in the civic center on that night was
genuine. I went down the day of the deadline that morning, and filed as
a candidate for county commissioner. So I ran and was elected. There
were thirteen people running, incumbants as well as new ones, in the
primary. The person who had been on there I think about fifteen years or
more. And had always led the ticket. He's an undertaker. So
he was campaigning everytime he buried a body. And he was the largest
undertaker in town. He was very popular. In the primary he beat me by
five hundred-and-nine votes. In the general election, I beat him by more
than the five hundred votes that he beat me in the primary. In other
words, I led the ticket. So the demonstration manifested itself not only
in the civic center but at the polls. I had a
That was in '68?
'68.
And was it in '70 that you ran for mayor?
'70 or '71. No, it was '71. The election
for mayor was off-year from the elections for county commissioner. I
didn't plan to run for re-election in '70, but
they came back to me and said, "Now you've opened
the door, the only way we can be sure to keep it open is for you to run
again." Well, I did run. I was elected, and led the ticket
then. So in '71, people were displeased with the person they
had as mayor, and they were going to make a change. And it was suggested
that I run. Well, it was so late. Because Hawkins had been out, and all
of my friends— especially in the white community, and some of
the blacks—he had commitments from. They wanted to get rid of
the incumbent, and if he, Hawkins, would run, they promised to support
him, both financially and otherwise. I hadn't indicated that
I was giving any consideration to doing it. So he had all these
commitments. He had commitments from the Seamans, from the Powe firm,
from the Bryants, and everybody else. But there were others who wanted
me to run. So I sent a letter to one of these people saying I was being
urged to run, and if I ran, would they support me. And they came back
and said that they were sorry that they didn't know earlier;
they had no idea that I was even considering it. They knew I was on the
board of county commissioners and had led the ticket and all, and could
probably stay there as long as I wanted to. And they didn't
think that there would be any likelihood that I would be a candidate.
And they had naturally committed themselves to Hawkins. And in politics
you don't go back on your word, you know, when you commit
yourself
Well, some of the questions that they were using: "Are you going to let a black be the mayor of Durham?" "Is Durham ready for a black to be the mayor of Durham?"
Was the press raising this issue, too?
No. By word of mouth. They were contacting the different ones and even
contacted some of the blacks that had pledged to support Hawkins. Well,
I can understand that. Because they were working with him on the city
council and all; they had wanted to get rid of the incumbent. Naturally
they had promised that they would support him if he ran. I had not
announced that I was considering it. But anyway I got enough
encouragement to cause me to go ahead and file. And, of course, you know
the results. So there had to be a run-off between him and me. The thing
that provoked me—because I was told the Friday before. Well,
as a matter of fact, I had some of the political leaders down in East
Durham to call me and tell me that I needed to come down there and speak
to those people. Because he had been down there, and the things that
he'd said, a lot of people were being turned off. And also I
did not go back to the tobacco factory, where all the laborers were
working, between the primary and the election. I got the support at the
primary. He had visited them, and had his representitives making the
contacts down there. And in addition to all that work that I
didn't know was going on—I didn't work
as hard as I could have worked between the primary and the election. But
on election day, I was visiting the different precincts. I had been,
from the time the polls opened until
The polls close at seven or eight?
Seven, I think it was, or seven-thirty. And it was six then. But in the
meantime, at Watts Street School precinct—I was there that
afternoon. The polling was very good that morning. For a good many
blacks.
I don't want to sidetrack that, but it brings up an interesting issue, that you probably had as much insight on as anybody, and that's this notion of class conflict in the black community. Some suggest that it's actually greater than in the white community. That feeling runs higher. Over your life, do you see that as a big issue?
If it has been in the past, I don't think it's so
today. And in saying that, I'm not saying it has been in the
past; I don't know. Because what I have always tried to do is
move around with all people. As much as my time restraints would permit
me. Because you see a person in as many things as I was in, and on the
go and moving, things you have to do, there's only so much
time that you have to actually mingle. And I've been able to
mingle more since I retired, than I was before. And I think I have a
better feel of the pulse of the community since entering public life,
than
But in general, abstracting yourself from it, do you think this has been an issue in the so-called black middle class? There's sometimes the charge that when somebody makes it, then they forget about the people.
I'm sure that during the boycott in 1968 that that became a definite issue. And it's something that my wife had to face. Because the fact that she had organized another group. Even though this group insisted on equal representation, black and white, on the committees and things. I told her this. "The best role that you can play is that of a mediator, or arbitrator. You have the protagonists on both sides. If you line up with either side, you'll destroy your effectiveness and credibility with the other."
One group wanted there to be an all-black committee, and there was the other group of white women who had never sat with a black person in their life.
And not only that. The community, the merchants association and everybody
else—in other words, if they say you're just an
addition to the black solidarity committee, there's no reason
for us to talk with you at all. Or even negotiate. If you take the role
that you're trying to get the facts of the case, and get them
out to the public, and let the public decide. Just like Nehru I was
telling you about. The State Department told me they had to use Nehru as
their means of communication with the Russians. And the State Department
was in favor of, and understood his position and all. And it was the
only way he could be useful. Because if he was in our camp, they
wouldn't be talking with him anymore than they would direct
to us. And it was on the basis of that experience in 1956, that I knew
if they took a position for either, it would destroy their effectiveness
with the other.
Do you think you could have been as effective with the protest on one side to work against?
No. That's why, you remember, I went back and said in every stage of the building of North Carolina Mutual, and the equipment that was needed in completing its job. And I said you need all of these things. Just like that black boycott.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
In Noble Ancestry and Descendants, written by J.H.
Moore, pastor of Shiloh Baptist Church in Wilmington, NC. Printed in
1949 by the Lin
So you've got both sides pretty well worked out as far back as possible. Have you ever heard of the Mitchell family?
Yes. A reference is made in here. Here they are, Mitchells, yes. [Reads list of early families in Columbus County community from same book.] Now, this Chavis. I don't know whether this was the Chavis or whether he had connections, but you remember the Chavis in the history of North Carolina who taught the governor's children, had a school?
John Chavis? He was also a minister—if it's the same man—in a white congregation.
That's right. And many of the governors and others were students of his. There is a Chavis in this group, and it could be that he's the one or a descendant of his was the one.
There's enough there to keep historians and geneologists at work for a long while. I asked about the Mitchells because there's a black playwright in New York City, named Loftin Mitchell.
I know him, Loftin Mitchell. And his brother is blind and helped him write that. And is one of the professors at the University of Scranton.
The brother?
The brother. And he's been down here and doing research on Dr. Moore.
Well, I had correspondance with him several years ago.
This is Dr. Louis T. Mitchell.
And his brother, Loftin, who wrote that book.
I saw it. Did you ever see it?
Oh, yes. It's on the black theatre in the United States. Black drama, I think.
I saw it in Washington. At the National Theatre.
Oh, you're talking about an individual play. He also published a book, which is a history of the black theatre in the United States.
Oh, is that right?
Yes, called Black Drama.
Well, if you didn't see that play that was on Broadway in New York, and came to Washington. And President Ford and members of his cabinet went to see it and they really enjoyed it. Rockefeller went to see it. It was based in Harlem. Oh shoot! What is the name of that thing?1 And it went to Chicago and ran a long time. About four years ago. It think it's still playing some place. But it was Loftin Mitchell.
Yes, and he comes out of that community.
Oh, yes. I knew their father, John Mitchell.
Well, have you ever talked with these and others about why it is that that community was so productive of people, whether it's businessmen or playwrights, or preachers?
Well, it just seems to be something in the genes down there. I
don't know wherever it came from. Because it
didn't just start, you know.
E. Franklin Frazier in his book called, The Black Family in
the United States, he has a chapter in that book about a
community. He doesn't name it but it sounds very much like
this. Was he ever down here doing research?
Not that I know of. Probably I wasn't up and around. Unless it was when I was in school in New York. Unless it was in the late twenties. See, I was away from '27 to '32. I knew about Franklin Frazier and I knew he was at Howard University and all about his writings and all. I don't know when you were here whether you heard about the meetings that Booker Washington and DuBois, the Merricks, Moores, and Spauldings had. One that they had at the White Rock Baptist Church for a period; what was called a fact-finding conference. Have you come across anything like that?
I have documentary things, but I've never heard anybody speak of it.
Well, it was called a fact-finding conference, and it was during Booker T. Washington's time, before I came to Durham. Just like Booker T. Washington used to carry all these top-flight people to speak at Tuskegee to speak, financiers and all. And I know you've heard of his famous Atlanta speech. And they say he was really an orator. And I was old enough to know about him, but I was still on the farm in Columbus County. So I never did get to meet him.
But you heard about him in Columbus County?
Oh, yes, I heard about him, and knew when he came to Durham. They had that group of intellectuals and businessman. And, as I just mentioned, DuBois was in the group. And, in all likelihood, Franklin Frazier, if he was old enough.
He might have been a little later, but there was that tradition.
And after Booker Washington died and R.R. Moton succeeded him, he came here and would meet with these people. And when Booker Washington came, they toured the state with his lecturing. But this particular meeting that I'm referring to—just like the meeting that was called to organize the National Negro Insurance Association in 1921, I believe it was. And the National Negro Business League. Well, the National Negro Business League preceded these other organizations.
That was about in 1900.
That's right. The National Negro Business League covered all the businesses that blacks were engaged in. And then as the time passed, it branched out to undertakers, the insurance companies, grocery stores. It could have been around 1916, or 17, but they called this a fact-finding conference. I heard about it and read about it. And from what I remember from discussions, the whole idea was to take a look at the Negro community, Negro progress. Where they are and how they got there. And to try to plan or chart a course for the future.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
North Carolina Mutual used to, before it had an auditorium large enough
to, hold their meeting at White Rock Baptist Church. They will
live." I think that was his concluding statement.
And Dr. Moore picked it up from there?
Yes.
We haven't talked about a number of those figures, particularly Dr. Moore or C.C. Spaulding. In talking to you before, Dr. Moore had a heavy influence on your life.
Oh, yes. They looked to him for leadership in the area. He was a senior citizen. You know, they called Merrick, Moore and Spaulding the triumverate. I presume you've heard that referred to. And it seemed to have been a good combination. Merrick was a very personable individual, made friends easily. He was quite an extrovert. Dr. Moore was the silent thinker. And they always said still water runs deep. And that he was the thinker in the group. And C.C. Spaulding was very outgoing, agressive, extroverted. Public-relations minded. Dr. Moore was not concerned about advertising anything he did. In other words, he didn't believe in getting on the house top and shouting it: he believed in doing it for the sake of doing it, because it was the thing to do. That's why he would go, if a patient didn't have money to pay for a prescription, he would take the prescription to the drugstore, pay for it, and have it delivered to the home. I think I told you this the first day: if they were without heat, he would have a half-ton of coal sent, and paid for it. And many of his patients he never sent a bill to.
He died when? In twenty-?
'23. April 29, 1923. I think it was around twelve or twelve-thirty. I remember it as vividly as if it were today. Because I had just come from church. He lived next door to White Rock Baptist Church. And I had come out of the church and started up the steps into the house. And L.J. Spaulding was coming out. He said, "He's just passed." Although I knew he was sick, it was just so sudden, it upset me.
He was not a man—according to the stories surrounding him—who would brook much opposition from the Jim Crow world.
Well he didn't back off in talking to the whites at all. He was not—and this is an opinion of mine, from all that I heard about him, and my association with him from 1918 until he died. And seeing him talking with whites. I told you about trips we made down to North Carolina State College to see Dr. Brooks, the president of North Carolina State, when he was trying to get the Rosenwald School in in this state.
Oh, yes. You mentioned that.
And W.C. Jackson was president of the Women's College in
Greensboro. See, they were state leaders. And I would drive Dr. Moore at
nights to have meetings with them. And in what writings they were ever
able to find of him, some of them were very direct and not apologetic at
all. He didn't try to be a diplomat. It could be because of
the amount of white blood that was in him.
So Dr. Moore might have been assisted in that he was very fair.
Well, he was very fair, but his hair was not of the quality of a white person's hair.
But when he stood up and spoke directly to white people, they might have reacted differently than if he had been a black man?
Well, I think the fact that he was fair, and another thing about it: he was a thinker. And he was very logical. When he opened his mouth he had something to say. You know, there are some people who carry on a lot of conversation on just a lot of things in general. Well, he was a philosopher.
So he would weigh his words?
And I remember one thing that he said. He said, "Never repeat anything you hear that hurts." In other words, if someone tells you something about a person, gossip or anything, don't repeat it. Repeat it only if it helps.
Did he have any trouble voting do you think? Did he vote?
Let's see. He died in '23. I don't know whether blacks had started voting in Durham that early or not. I really don't know.
He ran for office, I know, for county coroner, way back in the 1880's—one of the last times it was possible in Durham for a black to run for public office. But after disfranchisement, after Wilmington race riot in '98, and so forth, it's not clear who was voting. But this is a way of getting us back into politics. And I think what's in the back of your mind when blacks started voting has to do with maybe the Durham Committee?
No. It preceeded the Durham Committee. The Durham Committee followed it and helped give vitality to it.
What's your earliest memory, then, of this political activity, organizing the community?
Well, there were a few of the leaders back there who did vote. They were
forerunners of the Durham Committee, and this is what gave rise to the
Durham Committee. They were what you might call ‘block
leaders’, or
Who was in this new generation you're thinking of now?
Well, James Taylor at North Carolina College, R.L. McDougald—see,R.L. McDougald was very fair; he was often mistaken for white. He worked on Wall Street for a while, before he came back to Durham, before he went to the navy. He was a runner, I believe they call them, a Wall Street runner. You couldn't tell him from not being white. And a lot of people in Durham didn't know he was not white. He joined the navy. I think he joined, because at that time you were drafted to the army. And, being fair, he had no problem getting into the navy.
Do you think he served in the navy as a white person?
I don't know.
That would be interesting. Because the navy was the most exclusive.
That's right. But I know that he served in the navy. And the thing about it, he never would pass for white. When he came back to Durham after his service in the Navy, it was an insult to consider his as white. He made no bones about it any time, that he was a Negro.
We're talking about the 1920s now?
Yes.
We were talking about your experience with Harlem the other day, about the new Negro movement, the Harlem Renaissance. Did that filter down to Durham? Was there a feeling here that something was changing?
Ch, yes. Because you see what was happening: so many blacks, even from Columbus Country, would go to New York. And they would come back on business, you know, the families. And that's one thing, communications, what's going on, by word of mouth, and you see people, and you hear about where they're working and things they're doing: it creats an awareness.
Do you remember R. McCants Andrews?
Ch, yes. He was the first black lawyer in Durham. First black to practice in the Durham courts. He was a Harvard man. He didn't back up for anything. I guess you've been told that before.
So he, McDougald—who else would be kind of leading the way?
Well, Dan Martin, who was one of the employees of North Carolina Mutual, was a most astute politician. Dan Martin, after the Durham Committee was formed, he was heading up the political division of the Committee. The white political leaders always sought him out.
White political leaders?
Yes. And the precinct captains and all of them. And the labor unions. And he'd go into meetings of these politicians. And he didn't mind using his profanity. "Damned if we're going to do this" or "Damned if we're going to do that" or "If you want so-and-so, you've got to do this." And the older whites resented it. But the younger whites saw that he could deliver. And that was the beginning of the different groups here. At that time, back in the thirties, the politics in Durham was controlled by a very small group of whites. And the city council was controlled by one man.
Who was he?
John Sprunt Hill. You've heard that, haven't you?
This is Watts Hill's father?
Young Watts Hill's grandfather.
Yes.
Watts Hill, Sr.'s father. And then Percy Reid, who was the county attorney, had a large following. And the Bryants were very strong. So you'd have a group of people who more or less determined the politics in this community.
So Martin would go to them?
When Martin came upon the scene, there was a clash between him and his group and them. And then an alliance was formed with the later labor union, a coalition. And they began to get more and more power. And then when they got enough power to unseat the county chairman.
This condition was between the labor union…?
And the Durham blacks.
The Durham Committee on Negro Affairs.
Yes. And they unseated the chairman of the democratic party, and put a younger, more liberal person in.
Who was that, do you remember?
Leslie Atkins. I don't remember whether he was the first one or not. But he was in the early ones. I think he would be first of the younger breed to become the chairman of the democratic committee.
Are both blacks and whites in these labor unions cooperating in this coalition, or is it just black workers?
Now, I don't mean that they had one hundred percent
cooperation, but by this coalition they got enough of them with the
black vote
The Durham Committee is established in what, 1935?
1935, I think it was. '35 or '38, but I think it was '35.
Now you say the precursor to this was people like McDougald, Dan Martin and others?
No, no, no. They were in it when it was formed.
But in the twenties?
Oh, earlier. Well, you had Buck Waller, who was a black and ran a meat market. And his market was up here on Fayetteville Street. And others up in West Durham area. Spotted around in different areas, who had a following. Businessmen would all go there. You know how people would gather to discuss things. And each one, if he controlled twenty-five or fifty votes, after all. Because the number of people who turned out and voted were not spectacular numbers, at that time. A guy could pick up twenty-five, fifty, or a hundred votes that way.
Now there's a distinction to be made here between the meat market man and somebody like Andrews.
Yeah, and McDougald and Martin.
The meat market man is a ward heeler who's selling votes.
Well, the Durham Committee, that was one of its ironclad policies: we're not for sale. We will vote for you if you take the positions that we stand for.
If there's any one person in the black community who would get credit for the Durham Committee, would it be this man, Martin?
Well, everybody recognized him as being chairman of the political
committee, and they followed his recommendations pretty closely.
Martin said this to him?
The white politician didn't know how much influence Martin had. But when the results were in, he found out.
When did John Wheeler come to Durham?
John Wheeler came in 1929. He was here at the time that the Committee was formed. He had been here about six years I guess.
Was he too junior?
He was junior. The first chairman of the Durham Committee, if I remember correctly, was C.C. Spaulding. And I think he was followed by R.N. Harris. I'm not sure of that. And then James Taylor, one of the professors at North Carolina College, was chairman for a while. And I think Stewart followed Rancher Harris. And then when Stewart was elected to the city council—now there's a gap right there I'm not certain of. I thought at one time, that M. Hugh Thompson, the lawyer, served a term as chairman of the Durham Committee between Rancher Harris and Stewart, but I'm not sure of that.
I'll have to ask Mrs. Turner about that.
Yeah, but anyway, that was the only break. Because my recollection was: C.C. Spaulding—now whether James Taylor succeeded C.C., and the Rancher Harris, or whether Rancher Harris succeeded C.C., and then James Taylor, and then Stewart, and then Wheeler.
The person who was the head of this might not perhaps be the most active. C.C. Spaulding, obviously he was too busy.
Well, he would attend the meetings, and they would have the meeting discussions and they would agree on things.
But it would be people like Martin.
Who would do the work, do the foot work.
What about Conrad Pearson?
Conrad Pearson was active.
Do you remember an attorney named Cecil McCoy?
Oh, yes. Cecil McCoy and Conrad Pearson were the ones who brought the first suit against the University of North Carolina for admission of Raymond Hocutt.
That's why I mentioned his name. I wanted to ask you about that case, if you could remember that.
Oh, yes, I remember the Hocutt Case. That was written up, you know. They got plenty of publicity on that. And then Hastie, Bill Hastie, came down here, you know, and argued the case. And, man, he was so smooth in that courthouse. All of them had to respect him.
This is William Hastie from the NAACP?
Yessir.
Can you reconstruct your feelings about this, what it meant to you as a young person in this happening? It must have seemed revolutionary, perhaps?
No, I can't say that I considered it revolutionary. You know,
the older people would probably be more inclined. But there's
something about youth
Were you seen as kind of a hothead in those days?
No. I'll tell you. You see, there are some people, if they reach a position of leadership, it's something they go and seek, and work hard for it. I don't know where it originated or how it started, or what caused me to do it, but I always had a philosophy, I guess, of going to prove my worth. I'd rather the job seek the man, than the man seek the job? And I guess back of that is a feeling that if the people put you up, you have a pretty good foundation, a pretty solid foundation. But if you, in other words, sell yourself, it doesn't mean that once you're in a position of leadership, you won't assume the responsibility of that leadership. I feel that it takes all kinds of people to make our world to form society. You couldn't do much with all hotheads; we'd always have revolutions.
How do you think other people saw you in the 1930s?
Well, during the black boycott—the black boycott came the year after I retired. But I was still considered very influential in the community.
This is '67?
'68. And I attended some of the black boycott meetings.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
And this is repeating again, but to bring it into context, I also spoke my piece about Louis Austin and how people would criticize him and his editorials. I said that I don't agree with every editorial that Louis Austin writes or the position he takes, but I will defend to the last his right to do it, or say it.
Were there others in the black community that you disagreed with or were sometimes critical of other than Austin or Fuller or Ruffin?
It wasn't my manner of trying to mold them into my mold, because I thought that they had a role to play and I thought that it was a necessary role. Have you ever had change take place without reformers? And haven't there been changes to take place that nobody would want to go back to the old way? Either group? So I don't know whether it's because of my background, my readings, my exposures, and just my meditation and thinking. But there is a place for everything. We may not always know what that place is, or how important it is, but there's a place for it. You look at nature, out that window there, or that door, and you see those trees growing. And who is it that considers himself wise enough to comprehend the scope of things, and say it should be this way, or, it should be that way, or, this person should be doing that. So I feel that I have a right to my position, and you have just as much right to yours as I have to mine. Now the question is, can we sit down and talk and not both try to talk at the same time? While one's talking, let the other one listen. And if so, then there's a possibility of our seeing eye to eye.
Did that happen? Did you have meetings with men?
Many times that happened.
Would someone like Fuller take a different position in talking to you than he would take in public, for example? Or Ruffin?
We didn't talk personally, individually, many times. But at times when we worked together, it was not this clashing going on.
Do you think that on their part that they were aware of this philosophy?
I think the word would get around as to what kind of person I was, what I
would or would not do. I think that. And I think that they understood,
because I don't remember any of them overtly, or in the
press, attacking me. Louis Austin attacked me once in one of his
editorials, and called me some pretty bad names. But it
didn't affect my relationship with him. And I always said
that"the Carolina Times was one of
Durham's true assets, and so was Louis Austin." And
I remember when they got ready to honor him, I headed up the group. And
I think I personally raised more money for the purse than any group. I
think I personally raised almost twenty-five percent of what was raised.
And I went to some of the white people, who, at one time, were very
critical of him. I wrote a letter. I sat down and I thought it through
well. At least I thought so, and evidently did. I pointed out what it
meant—and made the statement in there—that
regardless of our differences of opinion, when we consider the assets
and the liabilities of the changes that have taken place and the things
that had been prevented in this community because of the Carolina Times, he was deserving of this kind of recognition.
I've forgotten how much we raised, but I think I raised
twelve hundred or more dollars for the purse.
Is there any reason to believe at all that Louis Austin might have
Well, he and I never clashed. Even after that editorial I didn't go and see him and criticize him anything about it. I just accepted it.
In effect, though, do you think it might have worked that the powerful whites would see this conflict and therefore maybe be willing to settle for an area of compromise? That Austin or Fuller or whatever could keep them stirred up and that they would have accepted more than if they hadn't been around? And that that gave you some ground to work with?
I guess from what you're saying, maybe it raised a question—I don't know. But I'll put it this way. It could be that I was seen as a stablizing influence in the community, by both groups.
But Austin or Fuller never came to you and said, "Look, we'll raise hell, and then you'll say this, and then we'll get this out of it."
No. There were never any deals made. That is, between me and any of them.
This may get us back to the mayoral race. That was 1971?
I think it was. There's one other thing, though, before we go to that. We were talking about Ben Ruffin and things.
I remember UOCI. These were a group of people, low income and so forth,
and so on. And they got together and wanted to do something to improve
their lot. It was the United Organization of Community Improvement. And
they came up with the idea that they wanted to get in business. And what
kind of business they could get in. And they decided a grocery store,
because all had to buy groceries.
The idea is to provide jobs through industry here.
Yes. So, I have never let differences prevent me from doing a good deed when the opportunity comes to do it.
In the mayoral campaign were there wide and deep differences in the black community over that?
No. I think the only situation there—and I'm guessing, which I don't like to do, because you can do an injustice to people. But I think the people whose full support I did not get was because of their allegiance to Hawkins and commitments to him before I became a candidate.
This is in the black community?
That's right. Because I got very good support on the whole, from the black community. And with him getting white votes, how could I have beat him by twenty-six votes in the primary? And he was so disappointed that he didn't come to election headquarters that night.
After the primary?
After the election at the primary. See, all the candidates usually meet there and have statements to make. He didn't come to make any statement. It was such a surprise to him, I guess. And the campaign for the primary was kept on a high level. If there was any race issue injected into it, I never heard of it. It didn't surface.
The fact that he didn't show up, did you ever think deep down that he was capable of that? And we left off talking about this sour note in the closing hours of the general campaign where race did apparently become something of an issue.
Yes. Well, who injected it or why, but I do know it came out over the
radio, three radio stations. "Black millionaire running a close
race against a white realtor." And the UPI definitely told me,
because I contacted them, they said well they were running it because
they "thought it was authentic, that it was true."
Because the information came to
As you look back on it, do you think that made the difference in the outcome of the election?
I'm pretty sure it did. Because people are still telling me they're sorry I didn't win. And some of the people who went to the beach and went fishing that Saturday said they were "so sure that I was going to win that they didn't stay here to vote." And when they came back and heard what the returns were, they really "felt like kicking themselves." And these were white people telling me this. They just felt that I was going to win. Whether that's true, or whether it wasn't I have no way of judging. But these were things that were unsolicited by me, and I didn't even know. Because they were not people that I asked, "Did you vote for me?" They just came back and by their own confession, they were surprised and disappointed.
Was there any other evidence of something being injected into the campaign up to this point?
No. I think it was Wednesday before I found out how much was going on,
and how many places he was going to campaign, or those who were working
for him were going to campaign. I told you about East Durham, down here,
where I got a call as to what was happening down there. And I know that
I did not go back to the tobacco factories between the primary and the
election. And I know that he and his workers did go back. Either he and his workers, or he or his
workers, because I was told.
You think that could have made a difference?
It could have made a difference. Because, you know, voters, they feel
that if you want their vote, you ought to pay them some attention.
If you had to do it over, do you think that was a tactical problem?
Oh, there were things I recognized as weaknesses in what I did between the primary and the election. I could have improved a great deal.
Do you have any regrets about not winning?
No, because after people came back afterwards, about how sorry they were, and whether or not I was going to run again. I said, "You've had one chance to vote for me, and see what happens. Why should I consider running again?" And another thing: some people also—because I definitely had some people whose word I trusted, especially some of the white voters—said they really wanted me to stay on the Board of County Commissioners. They felt that I was needed there. And that everybody seemed to be happy with the services I rendered, as evidenced by their vote every time I faced an election, whether it was in the primary or the election. Because I did not resign when I ran for mayor. See, the terms overlapped. The county commissioners were elected in the even years, and members of the city council and the mayor in odd years. So I went on back and completed my term. And then later, though, the thing wouldn't die, and people still kept urging me to run again, and it really was more so than it was for the first time. More people were urging me to run again.
For the same office?
For the mayor. And it reached the point where I really considered it. And
I had a coupon printed in the paper, raising the question: Should I
decide to run for mayor? If you would support me, return this form. And
they came from all sections and people. And there was so many,
'til I made up my mind to run. But in the meantime, through a
medical checkup, it
He had put me on a strict diet.
This is diabetes?
Yes, that's right. I was getting along pretty well I thought. But he delayed. He said it bothered him, because he thought if I ran that I would win, and he was afraid that if I did, it might break me down. Because he said he knew what a serious nature I was, and how sincere, and how I took things seriously. This is what he told me afterwards, because I didn't hear from him until I had to call him, because I had to make up my mind, and I couldn't wait any longer, because I had to file the next day. This was on a Sunday that I reached him and asked him for his opinion. He said could he come by and talk with me that afternoon. I think it was around one o'clock or three o'clock, something like that. So he did. He said, "Well, here's why. In the first place, because you are black and would be the first black mayor, you would feel that it was encumbered upon you to solve Durcham's problems." And you know it had its problems. Businesses were moving from downtown and things were going down. And he said, "You wouldn't leave your work at your office; you'd bring it home with you. And I just think that that would be too much and you'd feel, as I said, that being a black mayor, you wouldn't want not to succeed." My wife was sitting in here, right in this room. And I said, "Well, Dr. Johnson, a person's got to die from something. Is there anything bad about dying in service? Couldn't worse things happen?" And he said, "Well, you know, I don't know. If your health failed you and you were incapacitated for the rest of your life, and became a burden on your family, that might be considered." And you know, as I thought about that—because I kn