© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview E-0004, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Julius Fry was born in Lumberton, North Carolina, in 1912. In 1927, Fry left school to work as a weaver in the Mansfield Mill. He describes working there during the early years of the Great Depression and his growing awareness of the labor movement. Fry explains that his first knowledge of the labor movement came with his observation of the textile strike in Gastonia in 1929. His interest in labor activism intensified during the early years of the Great Depression when he faced shortened hours and wage cuts as a textile worker. Fry describes the reaction of workers to the election of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the rise of the New Deal. In particular, Fry emphasizes the role of the National Recovery Administration and the Wagner Act as especially pivotal moments that shaped his thoughts on labor activism. Likening these measures to "emancipation of the slaves," he increasingly advocated for workers' rights. In 1937, he participated in the organization of a union in Lumberton. Fry describes in detail how the union was founded, the role of labor organizer Miles Horton in garnering support for the union, the support of North Carolina Senator Robert R. Reynolds, and the reaction of Mansfield Mill management. In 1943, Fry left his job in the textile mill to work full-time for the Textile Workers Union of America. He explains his job as a contract negotiator between unions and employers and his interaction with the War Labor Board.
Julius Fry was a textile worker for Mansfield Mill in Lumberton, North Carolina from 1927 to 1943. During the early years of the Great Depression, Fry was increasingly drawn to labor activism, especially after the election of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the rise of the New Deal. Fry describes what it was like to work at the Mansfield Mill, the organization of a union in Lumberton, and his own role within the labor movement in the South.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Julius, I guess that the best place to start is how you first got interesteed in textile workers, in the labor movement. Was that in your hometown of Lumberton?
Yes. On April 20, 1937, I attended a meeting of organizers that came to town, an organizer for the then new Textile Workers organizing committee. And I joined TWOC at that time.
This is Lumberton, North Carolina?
Lumberton, North Carolina. I was a worker in the plant, the old Mansfield Mills, Inc. in east Lumberton.
How old were you then? When the TWOC people came in? Were you still a young worker, only been in the mills. . . .
I was 25.
25.
I was born in 19. . . November 12, 1912. I think that's 25.
Had your parents worked in the mills there in Lumberton?
Yes, my father worked in that plant as a loom fixer from 1926, which was the year that we moved from Erwin, North Carolina to Lumberton. And he worked in the Mansfield Mills until his death in the spring of 1928.
And then you stayed on in Lumberton with your mother?
With my mother and only sister. I became the head of the household and started supporting the family. No, no, excuse me a minute. That's when I went to work in Lumberton. I was, at that time, about 14 years of age.
You started working in the mills when you were. . . .
In 19. . . I had just finished most of high school and went to work. . . it was possibly in the early part of 1927.
How much did you make in 1927?
Well, when I first started, I worked for nothing and so I learned to become a weaver. And after I became a weaver, I would make $18 to $20 a week at that time.
How many hours a week is that?
60. 12 hours from six to six, with supposedly an hour for a meal break, but if you didn't get back to the job in 20 minutes, then you lost your job to someone who would cut that period short.
And people worked for that because they needed the money that bad?
Well, they didn't want to lose their job and that was required. It was the only job they had.
Was the Mansfield Mill a local, you know, a single family mill?
It was a locally owned mill. There was a connection with another mill across the town in north Lumberton called Jennings Cotton Mills. And the president of both mills, as I recall it, was a Mr. Jennings. I don't remember his name.
So, you started to work there about 1928?
No, about 1927.
1927. Do you remember the strikes in Gastonia and Marion?
Yes, I was working in the plant. I don't particularly remember the Marion strike, but I do the Gastonia strike. And one reason that I remember it so well was that the supertindent of that plant, after the strike, came to Lumberton and became the supertindent of the plant at Mansfield. I believe he was supertindent in Gastonia, he at least came from there. He was some official and became supertindent at Mansfield and was consequently my employer.
What's his name, do you remember?
Morehead.
He was the supertindent during all that violence and everything over at. . . .
I believe so. That was the word. You can look back in your records and find out. He had one sort of a bad eye, it was crossed and he was a tall man, about six feet, six it looked light.
When he came over, did people in Lumberton. . . how far is Lumberton from Gastonia? It's not too far is it?
125 miles to Charlotte, 140 miles, something like that, up U.S 74.
120. Had it. . . .
Well, it's 20 miles from Charlotte to Gastonia, about 140 miles.
Had his reputation, you know, had it come before him to Lumberton? Did you all know who he was?
Well, back then I wasn't as new conscious as I am now, and all I know is that the talk was that he came from there and I'm sure that he did. But nothing except remarks would be passed, "He's the guy that was in Gastonia."
But ya'll felt some sympathy with the workers in Gastonia?
Oh yes, yes.
No formal connection, though, with the strike itself? You never went over there and. . . .
No, no. We had no unions back there at this time. We organized while Morehead was there, in 1937. That was 1937. The strikes in Gastonia, as I recall it, must have occurred about '29, wasn't it?
Yes.
And the '34 strike, had the flying squadrons and all, we were very interested in that.
I was getting ready to ask you about that. You must have been right in that sweep that. . . .
Right in that period. And I recall that one of the workers in the plant, whom I knew, left the plant. And I didn't know why. I understand that he had been trying to get some sort of a union started in that '34 period. And they had fired him.
There at Mansfield Mills?
Yes. And he would get out on the highway or somewhere and telephone over there and say, "The flying squadrons are coming, I just want to tip you off." And the company would stretch water hoses around the mills and have armed shotgun guards walking around trying to confront these flying squadrons when they got there. And he made several of those calls and kept them very. . . .
He called who now?
He called the company and said, "The flying squadrons are on the way to close you down."
Why would he call the company?
Well, they had fired him and they weren't coming, he was just telling them that, it was a war of nerves that he was playing with them. And they would stretch the hose out and have certain people walking with shotguns guarding the plant. There was no fence around the plant and they later found out that he was the one doing the calling.
How many people worked there?
Well, in the whole plant, about that time, I guess that there might have been about 1100.
And did the flying squadrons ever actually come?
They never actually came.
Why did they skip Lumberton?
Well, they didn't go everywhere. It was physically impossible. They just didn't come there. It was off the beaten path, you know. Lumberton is a little. . . .
Where is Lumberton?
It's near Fayetteville. It's 33 miles south of Fayetteville. It might be maybe directly south.
As far as you know, flying squadrons didn't get over that far east? It was more. . . .
Oh, they didn't come to that plant. I was in the plant all the time. Now
another. . . since I'm talking about flying squadrons. . . another
incident that I remember about that time, was that one of the lower
echelon supervisors who was a friend of mine came to me one day and
said, "Julius, we got word that these union flying squadrons are coming
to town. And if they do, we've got a bunch of picker sticks in the
office. And if they do come, I want you to go by and get one and let's
fight them off." And I recall saying to him, "Well, I'll just be damned
if I'll do that. Anybody that's trying to
How did he happen to come to you, Julius?
He went to everybody.
He went to everybody? He didn't go to all 1100 people, he must have. . . .
Well, this was in the weave room. Apparently, they may have done that in all the other departments too. There was probably 150 people employed in the weave room on all three shifts. Well, I'm not sure that they were running three shifts at that time, but. . . well, it's hazy to me.
But with that kind of activity in 1934 happening in so many places, you seek out the union to see if the United Textile Workers, to see what that union was all about?
No, I didn't. I was, as I just said, I was young and had never heard of. . . well, I had read some about unions and I felt the need for something, but I knew very little about unions.
Did you know anything about the United Textile Workers at all?
No, I just heard about unions. Names didn't mean anything to me.
While we are talking about that period, did you ever hear of the Piedmont Organizing Committee, or Miles Horton?
Well, Miles Horton is the one that organized the plant that I worked in.
Is that right? In 1937?
Yeah.
Well, tell me about that. How did that happen?
Well, he was. . . if you know Miles, you may or may not, he was quite a fellow that knew how to arouse people, especially if they had grievances, and there were plenty of them in that plant. We had just come through the Depression and there had been many wage cuts. And so, Miles came in and pushed the right button and we would have rallies, 800, 900, 1000 people out there. And in the open air, out in an open field near the mill. There was an open lot near the mill.
Open Air? Is that what you said?
Near the mill.
From 1934 to 1937, when you said that Miles came in, do you remember what kind of wage cuts, were there lots of people laid off from work?
Well, during the Depression, the plants curtailed operations down to as little as two days a week and sometimes down at a week at a time. We had several wage cuts. I recall three at least. One of them was where Morehead called a group together at shift change time. . . that's right, we were still on a. . . .
Three shifts or two shifts?
Wait just a minute. He called them together at shift change time, I
believe that Turner was the supertindent then. See, without having my
notes, I wander, but I will try to get things in. The supertindent
before Morehead was Turner. So, Turner called a meeting and I don't
know, he must have called two meetings, one on the night shift and one
on the day. . . anyhow, I was on the day shift at that time. And he
called a meeting and told everyone how bad off the company was and,
"we've just got to cut wages, we've just got to do it. So, I'm
announcing a 15% wage reduction immediately." Some of the people in the
crowd actually applauded. Now, whether or not he had them planted, I
don't know, but I recall that some of them were considered by the other
workers to be sort
After that?
After that, in each of those meetings.
Now, you were making $60 a week, something like that?
No, I said $20.
You said 60 hours, $20.
Yeah, 60 hours.
$20 a week. And that was cut 15%?
Yes, the wages were cut 15% at one pop and then 10% another and then again, 10% at another.
And this is something like '35, '36?
That was during the period of the Depression. I would say from '31 on up to, well, late '29, '30, '31.
Well, how did you live on that much money?
Well, we hunted and we fished and. . . .
Did you have a family?
. . . .and we ate sowbelly and beans.
Did you have the family to support?
Oh, I was supporting the family then. My sister also went to work somewhere along in there. She's two years younger than I. And we supported the family. My sister now, incidentally, has byssinosis and has just made a settlement of a claim against Aleo Manufacturing Company in Rockingham.
Aleo?
A-L-E-O. That's a Lowenstein plant.
Did she get that through the new regulations, or through her union?
Well, she became ill with the byssinosis and the doctors diagnosed it as bronchial trouble, asthma, something. . . .
Where is this, Julius?
In Rockingham, North Carolina. And I told her that Inthought she had byssinosis, because she had all the symptoms, so we arranged for Dr. Selikof at Mt. Sinai in Washington under union auspices, at least behind the scenes, to have her come to Mr. Sinai and check her out. And she went to him three or four times, and finally, to eliminate all possibilites that it was anything else, she had a lung biopsy and he diagnosed it as byssinosis. She had a case here and just settled it this year.
She settled through the state industrial commission?
Yes.
Well, you know, that brown lung is real important now, with the new regulations.
Yeah, well, she had it. And she was a weave room worker too, not in the carding and spinning, which is where it mostly happens.
Do you have any ideas. . . this is jumping around a little bit. . . .
Well, go on around, and I'll see if I know.
Do you have any idea how many, say, textile workers in this state might have brown lung? How would you determine that?
No. I don't know. There are some figures that have been, estimated figures by people that know, and you could get those figures from our research department. I believe that I have seen as high as 25% or 30%.
But it's all guesses, isn't it, because doctors won't. . . .
Yes, and it's a fine line between byssinosis and cigarette smoking and they always try to crowd it, you know, if you smoke a cigarette, well, "there's doubt." You know, that sort of thing. And it's just like cigarettes causing cancer. They haven't yet found how it does it, but the figures show that it occurrs. And it's the same thing with byssinosis. To some extent.
So, by the time that Miles Horton came in, you were down to $16 a week?
Less than that. I worked as low as $8 a week, as a weaver.
Still a 60 hour week?
No, the hours shortened too, so I couldn't give you an exact extimate, but I know that the lowest rates in the plant at the time that Horton came in, no, not at the time he came in, I'm talking about during the Depression. The lowest rates were 6¢ a hour and I've seen one lady that had such a task that she had to have her two school children come in after school to help her catch it up for the end of the shift. And her and the two children together made maybe 6¢. . . no, they got paid 9¢, because the 6¢ was a low rate and she was on a battery filling job for weavers.
Did the Mansfield encourage young children coming in at that time?
Well, they didn't care. Back then, it was before the wage hour law, there
was no law against it. And it was during the height of the Depression,
about '31. And you know, Roosevelt came in about '32 and then
Do you remember reading about the NRA and the Wagner Act?
Oh, I remember all of it.
Even at the time, before you had gotten interested. . . .
Oh, yes. Let me tell you an incident.
On July 17, 1933, that was after Roosevelt was elected, the NRA came into effect in my plant and reduced my hours from 12 hours a day down to eight and increased my pay from about $8 a week to $12 minimum.
How did that happen, without the law?
It was the executive order of the President. Someway or another, that was the way they established NRA. Now, the records are clear on that, you can look at them if you are interested. But the NRA established, that was the National Recovery Act, I believe it was. It was later declared unconstitutional. That's what touched off the court packing incident.
But in the meantime, the Wagner Act got through, so. . . .
Yeah, it got through in '35, I think it was. But my hours were reduced
from 12 to eight and the pay was increased from $8 to $12 and that was
such a tremendous thing to me and I was so attunded to it that I kept
that date on one of the posts in the mill there. And if that old post is
still there, that date is on it. But that was like the emancipation of
the slaves. That's exactly what it was. And I felt highly emotional
about it. Because we had been nothing up to then except slaves. And I
really felt free. And I had so much time on my hands, getting off a two
in the afternoon, I would go to work at six and get off at two, no break
for lunch. And so much time for awhile there that I didn't know what to
do with it. It was
So, when you are using the term "Depression", you are only talking about up to 1933?
Yes. Of course, we were still in it, but the recovery started with the election of Roosevelt and the New Deal. He closed the banks immediately, put everything on sound footing. It was a very dramatic action to live through at that time. Especially as a lowly worker, you know, down at the bottom of the totem pole.
So, Julius, tell me how. . . when you felt emancipated like that, you were only working eight hours a day. Did that continue even when the NRA was declared unconstitutional?
Well, when the NRA was unconstitutional in some sort of chicken case, it was the thing for managers to announce, "Well, we are going to stay on an eight hour day anyway." So, they announced it at Mansfield Mills, but it wasn't very long before they went back off it. It was only in 1938 that they made them go back to the eight hour day. They made them when they passed the law then. The Congress passed the wage hour law, the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. And another offshoot of the Fair Labor Standards Act was that it made impractical the company stores. They had a company store that would issue coupons.
All through these years?
All through these years. And so, the Fair Labor Standards Act said that the payment of the minimum wage had to be in cash or cash equivalent for actual cost. No profit was to be considered. So, that outlawed in effect, made it useless to have the company store. Now, if you want me to ramble, I'll tell you something about the company store.
Well, before we get to 1937, that's o.k., but I'm thinking about that from 1927 to 1937, you worked there in that Mansfield Mills. Ten years.
Well, I worked there until 1943 as a matter of fact.
Well, ten years before a union came in, before you were actually involved with the union?
Yes, there weren't any unions in there.
During those ten years, you've mentioned some things, NRA and. . . what struck you the most about this mill time. Was it the company store, was it your co-workers, what was it?
Well, the thing that struck me the most was the stigma that we had because we were lint dodgers. The people that didn't work in the plant and who didn't live exactly on the village thought that they were better than we were. And some of them probably weren't making as much money as we were, even during that time. But they weren't cotton mill workers, they weren't lint dodgers.
What did they do?
Well, a barber for instance, or maybe a clerk in a store, something in that nature.
But there was no other industry, I mean, there was the mill and that was all that was there.
Well, it was a farming town and there had to be some little industry
there, you know, regular construction work and stuff like that. But not
anything of any large consequence. Those two mills, those were the
payroll for the town. And there's just such a feeling of second class
citizenship, because the people uptown were "better" than we were. That
was
Did you all ever talk about that at the time?
Oh, we resented it. And there have been writings about this, one expression of it would be that sometimes the uptown people like the barbers or somebody, would come down to court one of the girls in the mill village, there was a mill village there. And some of the guys would lay around and rock their automobile, that sort of stuff. It was just an outlet for the resentment that they had for the difference they had in status.
But they would never rock the automobile of Morehead and those guys in management?
Well, he didn't live in the village. He lived out on the highway in a big two storey house that the company furnished. He didn't live there. In other words, he was up a strata.
Did you have to buy all your food through the company stores?
Yes, not in the beginning, but in the height of the Depression, the supervisor came around to me, and I'm sure that they did it all over the mill, and they said, "Julius, do you trade at the company store?" And they knew that I didn't, because they had the records. I said, "No, I'm not trading there now, I'm buying from such-and-such." A little local grocer. And they would say, "Well, we think that maybe you ought to trade at the company stores, you know, the company gives you a job and if you like your job, and I know you do, there are not many to find, we think that you ought to trade at the company store." And put pressure on me and you knew that if you didn't, you would lose your job, so you would go trade at the company store. And they would be lenient with you, they would get you in debt. They would be lenient and give you more trade than you earned in the mill. And then after they got you so far behind, you never would draw any cash money.
Did that happen to you?
Oh, yes, it's happened to me. But I finally said, "To hell with this shit, I can't stand that." And I finally worked that off, but I've see people work ten years and never draw a penny's cash. And it became so necessary that the company owned the dairy, they would furnish the milk and if a worker needed a doctor, they would have to get the company store manager to vouch for them that he would pay them by taking it out of their paycheck. And it even got so far as to where movie tickets for a little theater downtown, a little tiny cubbyhole, you had to go to the company store to get those, you didn't have any cash money and they would let you have the.
Were the prices a lot higher for all these things than in that little grocery store?
Yes, they were, and it was common knowledge that one of the head clerks at the store, in a joking way, but it was serious, he would be overheard, and he would do it just to let them hear it, "By the way, So-And-So left today owing some money. Go up a cent a pound on sugar." Just do it openly, they would do it that way. And you could go out and as the manager to let you have a $5 book, or $1 check or a $1.50 check or a $10 book, that was coupons, you know, and he would pick up the phone and say, "How much time does So-and-So have? How much has he worked?" That was to see whether he had the money or not. If you didn't have it, you didn't get it. You were completely a slave to it.
But you felt free from that too, in 1933?
Oh, free from all of that. Well, the main freedom was that somebody was telling the company what they had to do and it was the government. And everybody knew it and Roosevelt was coming on the air with his fireside chats, and he really had the working people behind him.
Did you all talk about that at work, that kind of thing?
Oh, yes. I don't remember many of the discussions of it, not specifically, but it was. . . oh, everybody felt the same way. Roosevelt had the working people.
You had time during the work day, there in the weave room, to talk to other people about. . . .
Oh, you would have to go to the restroom now and then, and that was where most of the conversations took place. And then you would come to the plant before shift time, it was common to sit out, to come down there ten or fifteen minutes early and sit out front, a whole gang, you know, and then the conversations would start. There and in the waterhouse they called it, the restroom, and at the water fountain. That's where you would do your talking.
So, people felt like, after the NRA, they didn't feel as powerless for awhile there for two or three years?
Well, they felt like they were seeing the light at the end of the tunnel
there. "Here's hope." And then long about '35, you know, the CIO was
formed and we would read the papers, I always got the Charlotte Observer then. We would read the papers, we wouldn't
get the local papers, it was too much controlled by the local interests.
And we would see in the papers about the steel workers and the strikes
and the Ford workers. I remember in '37 that the Ford workers were
parading through Detroit with masks over their faces to hide their
identity and there were these security guards at Ford and if they became
known, they would be fired. Well, with Roosevelt encouraging unionism
and with news full of the organizing efforts of the basic industries,
like steel, rubber and autos, we began to learn a little something about
what a union was.
So you learned primarily at first from newspapers?
Yeah.
That was your main. . . .
And a radio. I had a radio back then. I know that I bought me a fine radio in 1937. A Stromberg-Carlson, no, a Stewart-Warren. And I got the best one that I could get and boy, I listened to the news. And another thing that should be mentioned, is that all during the time after Roosevelt was elected, he appointed Frances Perkins as Secretary of Labor and she really put out the information. You could get on her mailing list, and boy, you would really get the information.
How did you happen to get on her mailing list?
Well, I think that must have been after I got interested in the union, it must have been. Anyway, the unions could get on. . . I got all this information from the Secretary of Labor.
Tell me the first thing that you remember about TWOC and Miles Horton and that whole drive?
Well, the first thing that I remember was that a fellow, Strickland, from Selma, North Carolina, who had some connection with the union. And he came to the plant, this was in 1937 on, it must have been the same day in April that we had the meeting, or that night. The first thing that he did, he went into Morehead and told him that he was there to organize the plant, that he was an organizer. He said, "I just want to tell you." And he had a purpose in doing it, to put him on notice that they were organizing so that if there were any discharges, they would be acknowledged, see. So, then we had. . . .
You had the protection of the NLRB by then?
Yes, by then. The NLRB was passed and started in '35, I think that it
was. Or maybe declared constitutional. And so, the first meeting that
And he was able to get the courthouse as a meeting place?
That's another story, let me finish this one.
O.K.
So, this fellow that told me about the meeting, he had a pickup truck and
we loaded that pickup truck and rode downtown in the back of the truck.
And we got there and the fellow was standing at the courthouse and he
said, "We can't have the meeting here. They claimed that they had it
rented already to someone else and didn't know it at the time." He said,
"We'll have to meet in my room over here at the hotel." That was just
across the street. And he happened to be on the second floor. And so we
met there and he talked about the union and we all signed cards,
including this man that I rode to town with. And then we looked out over
across the street over there in the court yard and there were some
people climbing up in the trees peeping over into the window. It later
turned out to be company stooges that they got to come and peep in and
see who all was in the room. And after the meeting broke up and we came
out on the street, my supervisor was standing there writing down the
names of the people that came out. And
Including yourself?
No. I was a very good mechanic, frankly, not bragging, and instead of discharging me, they just sort of demoted me, but I was still kept. I was heading an overhauling crew on looms at the time and they just said that they weren't going to have any more overhauling, they just demoted me.
They needed you more than they needed. . . .
They needed me more and my supervisor kind of liked me, you know, and he. . . well, his brothers and I were friends, we ran around together and I think there was a little compassion there or something. He later came to me and said, "Julius, I hate to do this, but I've got to." He said, "Off the record, I would suggest that you not have anymore to do with that union." He had saved my job, is what he had done, but 22 others were discharged.
So, what happened after that?
So, after that, charges were filed with the NLRB and somewhere down the line, Horton came on the scene. Miles and Zilphia.
Miles and who?
Zilphia. Wasn't that her name? I believe that it was, Zilphia Horton.
They both came?
I don't know if she was there every moment, but they were both there.
And he was so well liked. He was another emancipator. Everybody looked on him as an emancipator and some of the babies born down there during the strike, the one that later occurred and during the campaign, were later named "Miles."
Is that right?
[laughter]
Why did he have such a following?
Well, he knew how to rabble-rouse, if you want to use that, I don't know if that's the correct term, but he knew how to arouse people. And he bitched that company, and it was the only way that it could be done, frankly. They were so under the thumb of the company, that it took those extreme methods, you know, to get people aroused.
What do you mean extreme methods?
Well, he knew how to use the right oratory and he critisized management and that phrase that they used down there, "to bitch the company", you know, and they needed it and it just happened to be the right issue. Because there were so many ills in that plant.
He and Strickland were still there then?
No, when Miles came on the scene, Strickland went elsewhere. Strickland was just the first man that came in, the first meeting. And if he had another, I don't know it, because all those discharges, then the union shifted to Labor Board charges. And incidentally, if you want to do some research, you can go to the Labor Board files for the right up of that case. I think that it was one of the first cases, maybe the first in North Carolina.
Where are the Labor Board files for North Carolina?
I don't know, you would have to. . . I think that maybe that the decision
might be written up in some of the labor reporting. . . Labor Relations Reporter, I know that it was out about that
time. That's B&A, I think and that decision may be written up,
because it became very famous. At one time, the little mayor down there,
who was appointed by the company, paid by the company, lead a march down
to the man that was leading the organizing campaign, who was a worker in
the plant. . . lead a group down to
What was his name?
Well, the man's name was Chester Manning, the man that they told to get out of time and. . . .give me a little time to think of the other man's name.
O.K. What was the name of the case, now?
Mansfield Mills, Inc., Lumberton, North Carolina, 1937.
And this was on those original. . . .
Original charges.
Original charges. When that first meeting happened?
Yes. And there were others whenever we had a strike there, a short strike and some were discharged following the strike and there were other cases following that. But Warren Madden, who was then chairman of the National Labor Relations Board had a news feud with this mayor. His name was Lamb, I'll think of this first name. And Warren Madden said that "the mayor of East Lumberton had soiled his judicial robes by leading a mob down to the union leader's house, and threatening him and ordering him to leave town." Warren Madden said that, there's national news on that.
How did you get back interested yourself, when Miles came in?
Oh, I didn't ever lose interest, I just cowed down for a little while with all those firings. I just believed in it. I just knew it was the thing to do. Like I said to that supervisor, "I'll be damned if I am going to fight somebody that's trying to help me." I was fully convinced that that was the only way out of the predicament that we were in.
So, did you eventually have an election?
Oh yeah, we had an election in September of 1937 and were certified. A
long series of bargaining and finally a contract was signed to
And CCC and. . . .
Yeah, and they had a FSA, Farm Security Administration, so, I remember this. . . we used. . . I don't know if this ought to go on the record or not, but the union used the influence of Bob Reynolds, who ran then and became a senator on sort of a Populist ticket. He would go around in a T-Model Ford and eat caviar and make fun of the rich.
That's a state senator?
No, U.S. Senator. And he's the one that married the McLean Diamond, Senator Robert R. Reynolds.
Where was he from?
From Winston-Salem. He may be one of the black sheep of the family of the Reynoldses over there.
I ought to know about him.
Yeah, you ought to look into all of this. But anyhow, through him, we arranged some sort of a project, or the union arranged it, to set up a project to take care of the workers who were closed down.
He was running for the Senate?
He was already a Senator. He had already ran. And so, they set up a program for the workers down at the plant under the Farm Securities Administration. We dug ditches and cleared right of ways up around Pembroke, which is the Indian reservation.
So, you all, while that mill was closed. . . .
We were on a government program.
You supported yourselves through FSA?
We did. I never will forget, I believe that Brewer, Seth Brewer, who was the typographical union man and sort of state director of our union at the time. . . .
State director of Textiles?
TWOC at that time. I believe that he was state director. And anyhow, he introduced me to Robert R. Reynolds down there in the hotel and I never will forget it. He stuck his hand out and grabbed me this way and took his other one behind my back and just pulled me up like this, you know, "brothers". . . .
Reynolds did?
And I had never had such a high official shake my hand, you know.
That was Senator Reynolds?
Yeah. And right after that, what they were doing was letting him look at the situation so that he could swing this project for us. And let me see now, let me get it straight.
O.K.
For the first three months of the strike, or the shutdown, for the first three months we drew out first unemployment compensation. The New Deal had put that in. We drew that and then after the three months was over, the company thought that we would forget the union, but then the project was set up, that's the way it was. I worked as a pipe fitter and got 30¢ an hour. And the WPA rate was 15¢.
The FSA rate was 30¢
Yeah. Pipe fitter rate was and that's what I was classified. [laughter]
Was Horton still around?
Oh, yeah. He stayed. . . .
He would come in and out?
Oh, yeah. He practically stayed there during that period.
All through the fall, trying to bargain. . . .
Well, he stayed there through the election and then he and Brewer, who was trying to negotiate, and Roy Lawrence, who later became southern director of the union, they came in. The tempo wasn't as fast then after we had won the election, and then had the obligation of bargaining. But he stayed there all during the campaign until after the election and then, I think that he gradually phased out and these other administrative type people, you know. . . .
He wasn't there in the spring, during the shut down?
Yes, he was there because we didn't get our unemployement checks one time, they were held up in Raleigh several weeks. And we formed a little group and went up and. . . .
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
So your checks got held up one time?
Yeah, they didn't come through and so we organized, with Miles's help and the leadership, we organized a group and went down and picketed the local employment office. Probably the first time that they had ever heard of a picket.
And then you got. . . .
Well, they. . . the local people were friendly, [interruption]
So, if you were making 30¢ an hour as a pipe fitter, did you want to go back to the plant? Did the union stay together during that period, did ya'll meet?
Well, you see, this was '37.
Spring of '38, now.
Yeah, spring of '38 and Roosevelt had already been elected and the wage hour law was already in and. . . I don't recall what my feelings were about going back. But the plant opened, let me tell you that.
O.K.
And the way they opened the plant, the company claimed that after the strike, see there was a strike just preceeding the contract signing, and after the strike, there was so much bad cloth that the company was in a bad way, there were a lot of seconds made, and they wanted us to take a 10% wage cut.
This was while you were still bargaining the contract?
We already had the contract signed.
Oh, you did sign it.
So, we agreed to do it to get to go back to work. But we had a proviso that we would do it for 90 days and then they would go back to the original rate. Now, all the other mills in the area cut wages, I don't know how much, it might have been more than 10%. And they never did get theirs back, but we got ours back.
Why?
Because of the contract. We agreed to go back to work and to work for 90 days at 10% cut. It was the thing to do back in those days and we agreed to it. And we got our money back, but the others didn't get it back.
So, you needed the Fair Labor Standards Act as well as a contract?
Oh, yeah. The NRA is what jacked my wages up to start with and then the Fair Labor Standards Act followed that.
But the other plants that were covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act didn't have a contract?
That's right. As a matter of fact, the only other mill that I knew that had a contract then was one that they had signed in McColl, South Carolina. It's not too far from Lumberton. And they had maybe a walkout down there to get it.
Well, what else do you remember about TWOC then? Do you remember other plants in the area that they organized?
Well, not in that immediate area. I recall, in reading the little
newspaper that they put out, that there was some activity going on in
another plant. Granite Falls, I believe, wherever that is, and I believe
that they had an election there. But ours was the first one that I know
of, other than that McColl thing. It might have come ahead of us, the
contract might have come ahead of us. Now, I'll put something else in
for you. During the organizing campaign, this same guy that took me to
the union meeting, the first one that I went to where I signed up on
April 20, 1937, went back to the plant and later became a stooge for the
company. And he headed a Gold Star Textile Union, which was a company
union that they set up to try to defeat the legitimate union. And that's
also in the Labor Board records. Gold Star Textile union of East
Lumberton,
Did they get an election?
No, we filed charges and the Labor Board threw it out as a company dominated union. Because the supervisors would come around trying to sign people up on the job. You know, the Wagner Act was new, they didn't know. They had a little local lawyer, a fellow named James Nance. He later went to Fayetteville, probably became famous over there, a solicitor of the court or something.
But tell me how you got, maybe we can wind up this session then, how you got from being interested in TWOC, you know and under a contract, to being interested in the Textile Workers Union of America?
Well, I was basically interested and knew the unions, from what I had read, I always avidly read everything, you know and tried to build my knowledge. I know that unionism was right and I knew that TWOC was the only thing. John L. Lewis had just formed the CIO and TWOC was the textile end of it. And it was a very dynamic time. People were on the move following that Depression, it was the first time that they had a chance to express theirselves against the evils, you know, that they had gone through. So, then as a union official in Lumberton, we begin to make progress and I was asked by the union many times to go to work for the union. And I finally consented to do it in March, 1943.
So, from '37 to '43, you were still in the plant?
As a union official.
You were elected by your local union?
Yeah. I was financial secretary. I never did try to be president. I
wanted somebody else to be it. Because I was rather shy, you know, and
still am, to a great degree. And it just killed me to speak to anyone,
you know, in front of a crowd, you know. I would just shake all over.
The old subjugated
Did you learn how to bargain contracts in those days?
Oh, yes. The first real feeling that I had of bargaining, and the
responsibility of bargaining, was that the company had gotten into
trouble and had to borrow money from the Reconstruction Finance
Corporation, RFC. And in order to loan the money, they had to agree, as
the way I understood it, that they would stay free of labor trouble.
This was the advantage of having a friendly government. And so to assure
that, they sent in a man who sort of headed up the operation to see that
things stayed level and on keel and he negotiated with us our first
raise. I think that we got negotiated a 2¼¢ an hour raise. And I felt
that we were doing something. You know, here we were talking to the man
about money and we had the union representative with us, and the man
said, "Alright, I'll give you this much." And we said, "Well, we need
some more money for some inequities." We didn't know what the word
"inequities" was then, but for adjustments. And he said, "Well, I'll
give you an extra 1¢ an hour. You put it where you want." And I'll never
forget how shocked we were. Here we were, going to be putting some money
somewhere for somebody to get it, you know. And the awful
responsibility, "Who are we going to give it to?" [laughter]
What time is it?
It's about 11:20. Let me just ask you this. This period, before we on,
you know, next time, maybe we can start on before you went to work for
TWUA. But during that time, '37 to '43, were you aware of the other
CIO
Yeah, I've seen them. I knew George and Luch Randolph Mason, I've seen her. I'd heard of her.
Yeah, but you didn't have contact with other CIOs?
Well, not too well. Because that was back in the early days and there weren't too many. There still weren't even steel workers and auto workers then. They were organizing too. And there wasn't just that much communication, except through newspapers and through what literature that we got from our own union. And somewhere along there, maybe in the beginning, we had a fellow there, a Washington representative, John Edelman.
John who?
John Edelman. And he was from England and he represented us in Washington and he was good. He would write us, constantly write us about the situation in Washington. He'd say, "Here is the status of this bill. So-and-So is lobbying against it, and here is why they are doing it. The oil interests are behind them and. . . "
He was educated?
Educated, oh, yes. And he worked for us until he was in his 70's and then he became chairman. . . .
He worked for TWUA?
Yeah, and then he retired with us and became chairman for awhile of the
National Council of Senior Citizens. And then he left there and he died
just two or three years ago. John Edelman, he was a wonderful man. He
was very educational. He just had a folksy way of. . . he had a very
good command of the English language and I just know that he sat down
with his secretary and just talked, you know. And it would come through
so falksy and
This was in the regular newspapers?
A little memo he would send us, I forget what he called it. A little paper of his own that he would send out from his office.
Did you go to CIO conventions at the time, national conventions? Do you remember seeing Lewis and. . . .
Well, Lewis came to our convention when we formed a union. We had an
organizing committee, you know, TWOC was an organizing committee. And
then in 1939, we had a formative convention and Lewis was there and
spoke. And the hosiery workers. . . . [interruption]
And so, you were still there in Mansfield right up to 1943? Right through the early war years?
Yes.
You didn't have to go into the war?
No, I was called and was examined, but then, the over 26 rule and the family size kept me out. And the union, I believe, at one time may have asked for a deferrment for me. They were talking about it. I was at the time working in the Charlotte office with Roy Lawrence and I was doing a lot of contract negotiations. That's about all I did then. And we were organizing plants.
Right from the start?
'43, yeah.
When you first went on, you went straight to Charlotte?
Yeah. Well, no, when I first went on, I went to Rockingham. To Aleo. It was Entwhistle Cotton Mill then. I went there and helped organize that and stayed in Rockingham for a year or more and won the election there. And then I went into the Charlotte office and began negotiating. Back then there were few people that had union experience and I had had all that experience from '37 on up to the early 40's. And I helped Lawrence in cases before the War Labor Board during those days. And then whenever we would win an election, I'd go in a negotiate the contract. Most of the time, it took a lot of the load off of Lawrence. He sort of shoved it at me and I did all right, I guess, he liked it. So, I just didn't do anything but that for awhile there.
You negotiated by yourself, or was it with someone from the War Labor Board? How did that work?
No, the War Labor Board handled only disputes. I negotiated with a company, during the War Labor Board days, and if we reached a dispute where normally you would have a work stoppage, the no-strike agreement that labor had during the war was referred to the War Labor Board. The concilliators, as they were called then, would refer it to the War Labor Board. They would say that mediation couldn't settle it and this dispute would normally be a strike, so the War Labor Board would issue a binding order. In less you want to do like Blakeney in Charlotte did, he defied the War Labor Board order, the first one in the nation, Cocker Machine Works in Gastonia.
What happened when he defied the order?
The government took over the plant and operated it. Just like they did and Montgomery Ward about that time.
And then when the war ended, that plant returned. . . .
They returned it, they operated it under the union contract ordered by the Labor Board. And either the parties would agree and accept it as an agreement and get rid of the government or else the government would stay on the scene. It would be the same personnel, but they would see that they followed the terms of the contract. That was the way the Board was set up.
I was going to ask you, you came in in '43 when the War Labor Board was operating. Were you involved in what they called the Big Cotton Case?
Yeah. Actually, my brush with the board came later. The big order, the big Board handed down to 23 southern textile companies. . . now, I believe that I did help argue that. I helped argue the rates anyway, Lawrence and I and Paul Gutherie here in North Carolina was at one time chairman of the commission.
Chairman of the. . . .
Textile Commission.
It was set up for that specific case, right?
The big War Labor Board handed down about five guidpost rates in an order. They granted an increase and they said, "Negotiate a balanced wage scale." And they gave five guidepost rates, with a 55¢ minimum and then it was up to the unions and the companies to try to negotiate all the rates within that guidepost, that framework. And if they reached a stalemate and couldn't settle, you would refer that dispute to the Textile Commission and they would rule what the rate would be.
The War Labor Board set up the Textile. . . .
The Commission.
With the labor representatives and management representatives and. . . .
And public.
Public. And Guthrie was the public representative?
He was at one time. He was the chairman, but it was towards the end of it.