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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview F-0017, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Virginia Grantham became a participant in the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen when she moved to North Carolina (probably during the late 1930s or early 1940s). Grantham's participation became more overt in the late 1940s when she and her husband settled in Greensboro, North Carolina, where he taught history at University of North Carolina at Greensboro. In this interview, Grantham discusses various leaders and figures within the Fellowship and offers her thoughts on that group's relationship to various social and political issues. After briefly discussing the role of socialism within the Fellowship, Grantham shifts her focus to the Fellowship's relationship to the civil rights movement. She explains that she was interested in the Fellowship because of her own support of desegregation. She concludes the interview by discussing the sit-in movement in Greensboro and the overlap between members of the Fellowship and civil rights activists.
Virginia Grantham discusses her thoughts on the Fellowship of Southern Churchman and her participation in it, primarily during the 1950s. In the interview, she focuses on such topics as leadership, socialism, and connections to the civil rights movement.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
That's all right I have got plenty of tapes. At the University of North Carolina library has the papers of the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen.
Do they?
And they want copies of the materials that I gather as well including the interviews that I do. But I will need to send you a release form to sign for that. First of all, I would like just a little bit of information about yourself, where you were born.
Oh, I was born in Nashville.
In Nashville?
Yes.
You are a native Nashvillian. You went to college here as well?
No, I really didn't grow up here. I grew up in a number of different cities, and most of them southern except for one, staying in Cincinatti.
Oh, what did you father do?
He was a Good Year toured over the country man.
So he moved around a lot. And your mother was just a homemaker? Just a homemaker?
That's right. She was dragged around. That is what it amounted to.
Do you recall when you first got connected to the Fellowship?
Well, I think now that it was in Ridgeburg, North Carolina. Did they have a group?
Yes.
Okay. I didn't know that I had got attached to some group there, that was interested in desegration which was my first experience with anything like this and the way. And I know the way that I got involved in that was because I had a little part time job with a Quaker Minister there.
Oh, who there?
See, I don't remember a thing. It is marvelous.
There were several Quakers there who were related to the Fellowship.
Yes, and this was a middle aged man and all I remember was that after several years I left there, he transfered to California or some place.
That wasn't Tarp Bell was it?
No, I remember that name, but it wasn' him. And anyway I think it was through him that and the churches philosophy that I got connected with that little group. That is all I can remember.
You were a Quaker then?
No, I don't remember how I had come in to get the job. Maybe it was advertised or something. It was part time, church secretary.
What denomination were you?
At that time I was Baptist. I have been several since if you are interested in that.
Go ahead. Well, not particularly. I am more interested in that time period.
That was sort of the breaking away point once I got interested in the Quakers. I have never been a Quaker.
They are interesting people.
Oh yes, goodness.
Did your husband teach at the college there?
Yes, you know he is an American Historic.
Right.
And he taught there at U.N.C., Greensbourgh.
About what year was this, that?
It must have been about 1948. We were there for two years. Now wait a minute let me see, 1949, 1950, 1951, something like that for two years, two academic years.
What did the Greensbourgh group do? Did they meet together in the Fellowship group?
They met and I don't recall any details. I just sort of remember getting together and once or twice we must of had some dinners together, maybe a pot luck dinners together. I think it was at that church that we met.
At the Quaker Fellowship?
I don't remember any other place that we could have met.
That was my next question, where you would have. And then from Greensbourgh you moved to here?
Here, yes.
And you picked up your activity with the Fellowship group here?
Yeah, and the reason and I think the connection was the Fusons. We had met them maybe through that group in North Carolina. They didn't live there, but I can't remember how it was that we met. But anyhow when we came here we made contact with them, and then through them got involved in the group here.
That would have been in the early fifties then.
Yeah, we came here in '52. So that is how I kind of tried to date that Greensbourgh.
Right, and the Nashville group, where has it met or did it meet?
Yeah, it met some. It must have met some. I guess it must have been in your black church or at Fisk (because that is where the Fusons were). And that is the only two places. I don't know what black church, because I just can't remember where else, it was difficult to find places to meet with integrated groups then.
Yes, I went to Divinity School in Vanderbilt.
Oh, did you?
In the late fifties.
Oh, okay. And see this was early fifties.
Right, and it hadn't changed much by sixty when I finished.
Did the group in Nashville do anything other than get together occasionally? That you recall?
That's, no I am sure there were other things but I just can't remember. I guess one of the ideas must have been being a small group in the start and make some kind of connections with each other and then try to expand that in some way. But I don't remember what specific ways they had in mind.
You were probably a member of a lot of other things in Nashville.
Yes.
Where would you place the Fellowship in the context of those other memberships? How important was it to you?
Well, it was very important to me. I mean I felt it was something different, I mean it had an exciting aspect to it because I felt it was something new that you know would have a real impact at some point in the desegregation process. And you know it was really exciting to me to be involved in something like that. It sort of ran on the forefront.
Do you have any idea about how many people would get together?
It was fairly small, twenty, a hundred.
Do you remember any of the names?
Fusons, and Wilson Welch for some strange reason I remember him. I don't know you know the names I gave you over the phone, I don't know if any of those were involved in that or not. Like the Comptons. This sounds real peculiar, but there is a man who lives across the street from us whose name I cannot, he is a retired man, and he moved in some time after we did, and it seems to me that that man must had been a member of that group. But I have never, you know all we do is nod and smile at each other, but I am just as sure as I am sitting here almost that that man was one of those. And if you wanted to be brave and go knock on his door and ask him I am sure he would be very friendly. I don't even know what his name is. His first name is Oscar, and I can't remember…
Oscar?
Yeah. And see you know his name is not on his mail box.
I have got a list of membership.
You have got a list of names.
A list of membership of different time periods. I think around then all I had was 1957, there were no real records kept between '50 and '57 that I have been able to locate.
No even, have you been able to talk with Pearson's?
I talked with him long distance for a few minutes last week.
And he doesn't have any records?
No, what he has is here in Nashville.
Yes, and there is not way to get to them?
No, I will have to get in touch with him when he gets back here.
I would expect you would get more from them than almost anybody else. Because they are always, they were sort of the leaders in things like this. Not just this but other things church related.
Would you react to some names for me? Some of them you may never heard of. That is fine, that is an impression too.
Okay. I'll remember.
Nelle Morton?
I don't know.
Warren Ashby?
Yes.
What kind of person was he?
Now, we knew him in Greensbourgh, and that may be another connection I
What kind of person was Warren?
Oh, he was, I felt a marvelous person; you know getting involved in this kind of work and all this. I just remember him giving talks and being very impressed by him, that's it.
Harold Wilkinson?
No.
I think he is President of Greensboro now.
Is he?
But he was elsewhere in North Carolina at the time. Charles Jones?
No.
What about Scotty Cowan. Have you ever run into him?
Well, I heard the name but that is it.
Buck Kester?
Yes. I have heard a lot about him because he was here at, was here at Scaret. And it seems to me that he was fairly close to the Fusons, so I guess I have really heard it more second hand than first, from them talking about it, having a lot of contact.
Did you ever run into A. D. Vitel?
No.
At one time he was Pastor of College Side Congregational Church here. I don't know if it still exists even.
Never heard of it.
I need to check that out. That he was later President of Taladeka College and Guildford College and such.
My feeling is that a lot of these names you have mentioned Dewey would know something about. Even though he was not terribly active in those things, those names would mean something.
Everett Tilson?
Yes. But I can't remember. I can't remember, but that name is very familiar.
He was on the faculty at the Divinity School at Vanderbilt.
Oh, is he involved in it?
Yes, those conferences in 1957 held at Bethany Hills…
In 1957?
Yes, on human relations and race, and Everett was in charge of that. He was the chair of getting it organized and everything.
I remember going to some conference in Bethany Hills, but it may not have been that one.
Martin Luther King was the midline speaker.
Oh, well no, then I wasn't there for that.
That was back at Baker, that was about the last thing the Fellowship did as a total organization. The last major conference they held and all.
Was it? I see. There was a year or two that we were away and that always, that always interfered with my continuity of thought and action and memory.
Do you know which two years? About?
Which year? Let's see, it must have been '54-'55 we were away, '55-'56. And about that time it must have been a '60 something.
Okay. That just gives me an awareness of years the gathering might be.
I can tell you one thing about the time that we were away in the sixties. It was a time when the Human Relations Committee or Conference was formed here. Now you have probably heard of that. It got some, but that one thing does stick in my mind because when we came we were in California then we came back and somebody told me about it and said, ‘Don't, are you sure you want to be a member?’ And I said, ‘Yes, I am going to be a member.’ And so that, I can place that thing in that year. Do you have the date of when it formed?
No, but I can get it.
Well, anyway, that is where… and I guess that other had just sort of faded out by that time.
The Fellowship?
Yes.
Are you familiar with the Committee of Southern Churchmen?
Well, yes I have heard of that because Will Campbell was in that. And ever since I have known Will Campbell I have heard of that.
How long have you known Will?
Well I guess I met him during those early years in the Fellowship of
It is just here.
Julian Fryer? Is that a name?
Yes.
Okay. Yes, he was active. Very active.
In fact, Eddie Greensboro was in it at that time.
Greensboro?
No, he wasn't in Greensboro he was in Nashville. And now he is in Knoxville.
That's right.
I interviewed him about a year ago. And he is still connected with the Committee of Southern Churchmen.
Is he?
Yes. He was the Chairman or President of it until this current year. So he is sort of the continuous between the two groups.
Why don't we react to Will Campbell? What was Will Campbell like?
Oh, he is a delightful person, that is what Will is like. Because he is so, so different from anybody else that you ever met anywhere at any time.
In what way?
Well, first is his, you know, in his religious orientation is so different. And then I think he has got tremendous influence in among the people that he moves. And you know this commitment I guess you would call it to what he calls the "redneck" group. You know where else do you find anybody else like that, with the liberal ideas connected to it, which makes a lot of paradox.
It does.
It is fascinating, you know. What is coming next? It's for the record. And you know he is really a very deep thinking person I have found.
I have just recently run upon an obituary I guess you would call it that he wrote for the mother of some friends of his, and it was beautiful. I mean it was…
Where was this?
Where did I read it?
Yes.
The family has a copy of it.
Oh, the family has a copy of it.
The family has a copy of it.
Yes, I talked with John, the Edgerton family. You know the Edgertons?
Well, it's his mother.
Yes. Oh, John Ed's mother.
Yes, and Will wrote this beautiful eulogy, that is what it would be a eulogy of John's mother after she died that was read at the funeral service. And it was beautiful. And you know it just really shows so much of Will, and him thinking and appreciating the good things in people and how he can express it.
He has a way.
And I have read a couple of his books too.
Sure. Brother Turn Around?
Yeah, that one.
Yeah. Did you ever know Alice Kester?
No, just heard of her. Isn't that Buck's wife?
Buck's wife.
Yes, I just sort of remember hearing about her, I don't remember anything about her.
George Mayhew?
A slight memory of him, because he was on the faculty and then retired to go to Florida. He was sort of impressive, that is sort of what I remember. An impressive man coming from a background he did and being interested in these issues.
What kind of background?
Well, I guess I mean Vanderbilt professors, that's all I mean.
Okay. Right. Daughters?
I don't know anything about his family.
What about Alba Taylor?
That sort of sounds familiar, but I don't know.
He is another Vanderbilt faculty member, but Vanderbilt fired him.
Oh.
Particularly over this issue.
Was he? Over what?
Primarily his labor positions.
It wasn't at the time of the big flare up of Jim Lawson?
In the sixties, no.
Earlier.
No, much earlier than that. I think late forties, early fifties.
Did you ever catch a note of socialism in the Fellowship? Or was it primarily concerned with race?
Well, it may have been. I suppose there was an element of socialism. I have never given it much thought but I think it probably was in there. It depends upon what your definition of socialism is, I guess.
Well, yes there's a socialism, but in terms of better distribution.
Probably, I just don't remember that as a definite issue. I just think it may have been kind of a underlining.
Well, the context of that is that when the Fellowship was first organized in 1934.
Excuse me.
Sure.
I was too naive too, but whatever.
Well, by the fifties.
It had changed. We were trying to see how much it had changed.
Well, if I had been more sharp I would have probably picked up more of that. But I was just sort of interested in the other aspects.
Do you know of any relationship between the Fellowship and the sit-in movement in the sixties, in 1960?
Well, I always assumed there was some connection, but I can't put my finger on it.
You don't know any of the people in it who actually participated in it or anything like that?
Participated in?
Sit-ins.
Oh well, yeah, I saw a lot of the people here that we talked about were involved in the sit-ins. I think so because I always thought it was more or less the same group of people.
They were the kind of folks that would do that kind of thing.
Yeah, right. And I was involved in them, so to a sort of fringe extent if
you are talking about, let me think about dates here, you are talking
Yes, February 1960, Jim Lawson.
Yes, well it seems to me that a little bit after that there was some other sit-ins. And I think was the ones that I was somewhere in there.
I left here in the sixties, so I am familiar with what went on in Nashville.
Lunch counter sit-ins that is what I am talking about.
Yeah, that's the ones I am talking about. A lot…
Yeah, I was involved in that and my memory is of these people that we talked about were involved in it to.
What do you think was the significance of the Fellowship?
Well for me, I will just have to speak for me, because I am sure a lot of things just passed over my head. For me, it was getting involved in some kind of desegregation movement, where you know we had contact crossed radical lines as well as economic lines, that's what.
Do you think it had an impact on the South?
That's really hard for me to say, since I'm white. I remember the only place I knew about were Greensboro and here and so I don't think I can speak for being just here and Greensboro.
Is there anything else I ought to be aware of about it?
Gathering all of the people I can think of that were involved I don't know if there are others that…Well the question was are there other things you ought to know about it. There probably are other things but I don't know what they are. But I just feel that there are some people that were involved in this that have a much deeper understanding of what was going on and a much greater memory of what was going on.
That's true with anything. But I am…
Like Gideon Fryer.
Sure, Nell Morton was the head of it for five years before Buck Kester in the fifties. For example I spent a couple of days with her hoping…
Well, surely, did you get a lot of information?
Oh, yes, yes.
I would think so. Was Ann Queen's name brought up?
Yes.
Okay. Well, her name is just widespread isn't it—over so many things?
Yes. I haven't had a chance to interview her yet, but I am going to shortly.
I guess she is sort of…
END OF INTERVIEW