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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
G-0011, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Rosamonde R. Boyd shares some observations on women's activism in the early 20th century in this interview. She describes the evolution of young women's attitudes, from an assumption that they would teach and raise children after college in the 1910s and 1920s, to a conviction that they would enter the workforce in the 1930s. Boyd is torn between her belief in women's political and social equality and her distaste for blatant violations of traditional gender norms, such as when women wear pants. This interview reveals some of the ways in which even those women who were actively pushing for equal rights wrestled with their own assumptions about gender.
Rosamonde R. Boyd shares her observations on women's activism in the early 20th century.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Since I didn't come to South Carolina until 1937, I did not know about
the early leadership. All that I have known, I read in Dr. D. D.
Wallace's History of South Carolina; Landrum's early
history of Spartanburg County, South Carolina; and A
History of Spartanburg County, a W. P. A. project which Dr.
Fronde Kennedy edited. So, I would refer you to those.
Where you went.
Yes. . . . and at the other Southern colleges
The Y.W.C.A. has always been known as a liberal organization, so you can
rest assured that there was
I talked to Robina Bagwell, whose father was Dr. T. Tillinghast of Converse College. One of their friends who attended Converse College in this period says that Dr. Tillinghast used to have discussions in his sociology and political science courses in regard to women voting. . .
Did he teach at Converse?
Yes, he did. . . . and was always interested in the pros and cons of an issue. That's just about as far as that went.
He found "cons" then?
Yes, yes he did. He and the students took both sides of the matter. This
was rather interesting. Robina had been in newspaper work and her father
before her in newspaper work, so I thought perhaps that she would have
some clippings or reference files. She does not recall much publicity in
our papers but the University of South Carolina should have a complete
file of the Spartanburg Herald. I think you could cull
through those papers from 1900 and see if there was any.
I shall. I shall look into the local newspapers for all these communities where I've interviewed people. However, I think that the interview is kind of a live factor in the research.
Yes. There was a
I talked to Mrs. Helen Moseley's son, who had just come home to
recuperate from surgery, and she herself is in bed at the present time.
He's going to ask her if she has any memory of
How old is she?
She's not over
Yes. You moved to the state, you say, in 1924?
Yes.
You had been at Randolph-Macon. Where did you come from?
I came from Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Oh, did you. I'm from Tennessee, too.
Really. From where?
Nashville.
It's pretty there.
Were you interested in the suffrage movement at Randolph-Macon?
No, we students at Randolph-Macon were busy studying of course, and we
considered ourselves equal to any man. So much so, that it was said that
when you had a degree from Randolph-Macon, it took a long time for you
to get married because you couldn't find just the right mate. You were
so particular.
I wondered if believing themselves the equal of any man if, when they did come forth from Randolph-Macon with their bachelor degrees, they found some rude set-back in the world at large because of some discrimination.
Yes, I'm sure of that.
This often has been enough to catapult a woman into the suffrage movement.
Yes, but of course this was the period when
Yes. Today, I think, women have a similar expectation. They expect to have both marriage and some outside work in the world.
Yes, they do. In fact, women today have so many roles that they play simultaneously. Some women are wise enough to play them sequentially but many are home-makers, wives, mothers. They are civic leaders. They hold a job and make an economic contribution. They are "politicos" too.
Yes. Do you have some active women of that kind in Spartanburg?
Yes, indeed. Large numbers of them now. So sentiment changed decidedly.
My husband was saying—he was in the state legislature from
about 1911 to 1919 and then he was there from 1924 to '26—that
somewhere in this period he was in Washington
To see a woman with such composure and self-assurance addressing a body of men?
Yes.
She visited Mrs. Eulalie Salley just about one year ago at Miss Sally's home in Aiken.
Did she?
Yes. While your husband was in the legislature, I wonder if he has any recollections of the time when he was there and the matter of suffrage being brought up in the legislature for approval?
No, he doesn't. That didn't seem to make any impression on him except
being rather startled and being amazed at the ease and poise that Mrs.
Rankin showed. He doesn't have any specific recollection of the issue
while he was in the General Assembly. Of course, the Acts and Join
Resolutions would convey some of that and they would also have besides
resolutions
Mrs. Salley did some active lobbying in Columbia. Mrs. Eulalie Salley.
Yes.
She recalls that the legislature turned thumbs down on the suffrage amendment, regularly, but it was regularly brought up by Niels Christiansen of Beaufort. . .
Yes.
. . . who cast the sole vote in favor.
Did I ever in the world!
This was a pattern, an annual.
Well, I know that the women up here were not really too eager to push in this direction although they favored the franchise of women and they would assume responsibility when it came. That is, the leadership. I think the rest of the women, were just lethargic and maybe disinterested.
This is probably the case throughout the United States. You had a small handful of leaders that pushed hard for this.
Yes, I think so. And I don't think the South was the area that really put it across at all, because women were rather conservative. This was where they were placed on a pedestal and kept there a longer period of time than elsewhere. Although, southern women during the Civil War had to assume heavy responsibilities and be mother and father both, to their families.
Probably to some extent during World War I too, yes.
I think, in the nation as a whole, that women assumed such an important
role in World War I that the franchise was a reward for their community
service and their national service. I don't think it could have been
delayed much longer after women had played such a significant role in
the War. Keeping the home fires
I wonder if you think that President Wilson viewed it in this light or if he was to some extent pressured by the women who appeared at the White House and picketed and sent him telegrams?
I wouldn't think that President Wilson would be influenced by any public demonstrations.
You wouldn't think so?
No, I wouldn't. I think his determination for everything was the result
of intellectually facing the problems
Couldn't it have been a matter of political reality given the fact that some women did indeed have the vote? And some states were crucial in which women had recieved the vote on the state basis. And he was looking ahead to the 1920 election, not knowing that he would be so ill.
I think that President Wilson, although a political scientist and a professor for many years, was not that much of a politician. No, I really don't.
As far as women being placed on a pedestal isThe
Southern Lady from Pedestal to Politics?
No, I have intended reading that. I know it's interesting, is it not?
She finds that women of the upper socio-economic echelons in southern society were indeed active and stepped off of that pedestal rather early.
Well, they had to because during the wars they were obliged to assume male roles and responsibilities.
Perhaps too, there was a desire for achievement on their own part outside of the home.
Yes, and some women had to take over the management of plantations. This of course was a major business. They had to take the economic and the political and the social roles.
I recommend Scott's book. I think it's in paperback now. It's very fine.
Yes, well, good.
You say that there was no organization, as such, in Spartanburg.
Not that we've been able to discover.
Do you know if any of the women who took some interest in the issue went
to the state meetings? Or were they unaware, up here in Spartanburg,
that there
We can't verify that one way or another because the only people living that knew these ladies well were their daughters and they don't have any recollection or remembrance of it.
Are there no living suffragettes in Spartanburg today?
Not that anybody has been able to discover. Mrs. Paul Foster, who has been quite an activist in every field, I talked with her last night. She does not recall any organization or any records of organizations and never read anything or saw clippings about suffragetee organizations at all. She was going to think through the whole matter today, and she wanted us to call her and see if she had come up with anything. Then, she could see you at two o'clock if you were able to stay this long.
How lovely. You are very kind to have pursued that for me.
Maybe she can add something.
Then you really will have to refer me to the Spartanburg newspaper to find out; and to the Columbia paper.
Yes, we certainly will. When I came to Spartanburg in 1937, women were
aware that we hadn't taken the franchise as seriously as we might. In
the first place,
Were you a member of these, Mrs. Boyd?
I was active in the Association of University Women. I belonged, for a
few years, to the B. and P.W. but I couldn't keep it all going, so I
dropped that. I was in touch with them constantly. They had separate
departments and divisions at their national level that came down to the
state level and to the local branch chapter level that worked for the
promotion of women, the advancement of women during that whole period
from the late thirties through the forties and through the fifties. It
was only in the women advanced women in any area
of their activity. As a result of dropping the programs nation wide,
women began to lose their administrative positions in colleges and they
began to lose many of their policy-making positions. They weren't
appointed as frequently by public officials and I think it was a great
mistake.
I think these organizations have re-instituted their committees on the status of women.
The Methodist Church has.
So too has the A.A.U.W., I understand.
We don't have any separate division on it as yet.
I was a member in California but I dropped it when I returned to the South.
We felt that we accomplished a great deal in the fifties. Let me see. I
went on the status of women committee in '47 and was chairman from '52
to '54. We
Here in Spartanburg?
No, this was national. I was national chairman of the Status of Women Committee. We also had such persons as Dr. Ellen Winston on our committee and Dr. Ellen Winston was commissioner of Department of Public Welfare in North Carolina. She became the head of Public Assistance in the federal government and was an outstanding member of our committee when I was chairman. Then we had Col. Mary Agnes Brown who was in the military and who was quite an outstanding leader. We had the business woman, Marjorie Husted, who really conceived the Betty Crocker idea. She was from Minneapolis and represented the economic advancement of women. She was on the committee. We had prominent leaders and were able to get many more women appointed at the county level, especially at the state and national levels. We even worked to try and get women nominated for the vice-presidency at the political conventions. I know we were the first ones that promoted Margaret Chase Smith to be nominated. We had India Edwards nominated in the other party. At least, it was just a matter of getting their names on the record. They did finally withdraw but it was a step in the right direction.
Then we worked very hard to re-instate women in administrative positions in colleges and universities but by that time, the colleges and universities were growing so rapidly and they changed the whole system. An academic dean then had many assistant deans or associate deans working under him. So women didn't get the highest-echelon positions after all, but worked at the lower levels.
We stressed the economic advantage that women had because they owned a disproportionate amount of the wealth.
Without actually having a voice in its control.
Yes, that's right. It was largely the result of being beneficiaries of men's insurance and wills and that sort of thing. Then more and more women did enter the economic field. At depression time, we had several prominent women in the banking field in Spartanburg.
Do you now?
Yes. We have had a woman elected to the General Assembly from
Spartanburg. We don't have one right now. There have been two women in
Spartanburg who have served in the General Assembly. One was Harriet
Johnson and she was elected, though, from York County. She lived in Rock
Hill at the time. She moved into Spartanburg where she hadnow but not anything
like the number that we should have.
Another thing, I don't think women have been courageous enough, or
serious enough, to go out for public office. I
Has Converse College not consistently promoted women's active participation in the world at large? You would think that a community with a woman's college would have this kind of emphasis.
I think they have had excellent emphasis on
I believe that it is. I believe that this current generation of young women is taking a role in politics.
I think so.
This augurs well.
Yes, it does.
Did you have a relationship with Converse College yourself, Mrs. Boyd?
I taught there for thirty-four years.
You did indeed have a relationship. Mrs. Boyd, what did you teach?
Sociology.
Did you?
Oh, yes. My students were very active in
Do you remember from the time that you were at Randolph-Macon the arguments that were used against women's obtaining the vote? What did you hear as a student up at Randolph-Macon?
I don't recall that I heard anything because I didn't take sociology. I did have a course in political science but it was strictly a lecture course. There was no opportunity of any kind for discussion.
Did you not have people on the lecture trail coming through and delivering addressees to the student body at Randolph-Macon?
Not many political addresses in 1918 to 1920.
Not even on the subject of suffrage at a woman's college?
Not enough to be impressive.
What arguments do you recall that you, with your fellow students, advanced in favor of suffrage? Do you remember?
Of course, with fellow students and, later, with my
students my whole philosophy has been that women are persons and that
women have as much mental ability as men. Women have as much stamina as
men. Women, in fact, live five years longer than men. That little book
of Ashley Montague's on the Natural Superiority of
Women speaks of the biological and natural aspects of womanhood
that equip women for very active service and to assume responsibility
alongside men. In fact, women are equipped by nature to surpass men with
endurance and things of this sort. So I've always believed in complete
equality.
Why do you think women have rather consistently in human history fallen behind or, not indeed, have attained the level?
I think that it's a cultural matter. When society disapproves, I think
women take the way of least resistance and they yield to protection of
the male. I saw something in the morning paper in the magazine section
yesterday where there was an actress who thought it was just wonderful
to be dependent on a man. Don't you see? It was just a means of security
in the way of least resistance and an easy way to live and to enjoy life
in a rather relaxed fashion. As long as there was a provider, and as
long as women had children and reared the
This was indeed true for women of the upper-income, and middle-income woman, but the mill woman had no such experience with the leisure life. Yet, she consistently drew lower wages than her male fellow workers.
I think she probably felt that this was just the lot of women—that women were the childbearers, that women were the ones that did the home work and housework, and just accepted that division of roles that the mill worker had always learned from parents and grandparents. It was the way of life.
How do you find that this matter of roles came into being?
I think the matter of roles came into being with the first population
group. You can't have any group living together without somebody
becoming the leader and somebody becoming a follower, somebody having
the ideas. Take the small group; there's usually an idea man; there's
usually an administrator found in the group; there's a leader found in
the group; there's somebody who just keeps the group in a good humor,
the fun person. (interruption)
MIDDLE SIDE II TAPE I
I think roles came in the very beginning and have been with us ever since. In other words, we all have a part to play in every group to which we belong and we have a position in every group to which we belong.
In a social group in which a woman demonstrates strong leadership capabilities and yet there was a man also with strong leadership capabilities, do you think that woman out of second nature would assume the subordinate position to the man? Suppose they had equal leadership capabilities?
That would depend upon the woman. She might become a little angry with the man trying to usurp this place and might then put forth greater effort. Other women particularly if they wanted the favor of that one man or if there were other people in an audience, might yield. I think it would be an individual matter.
Do you think that this matter of sex roles is perpetuated in the elementary school as people in the women's movement are now saying? It's inculcated virtually in the nursery and reinforced in the elementary school through the readers and what not?
I think that this is true:
Perhaps not, with the wiping out of the requirement for shop for boys and home-ec for the girls.
But you know, I'd want some difference in roles for the simple reason
that I don't like to see men wearing pale pink and pale blue and letting
their hair grow long and go to beauty parlors and look effeminate.
Neither do I like to see women in pants, except a few women and except a
few stunning outfits that maybe would be too expensive for the majority
of women. Others put on these cheap pants and just look deplorable.
Then, you don't seem to command the respect of others when you are so
slouchy. I had just rather that women would dress like women and women
would be feminine rather than
Oh, I made an error. I addressed your postcard ‘Ms.’.
You did?
Some of the women I've been interviewing welcome this innovation.
No, I don't. I don't welcome that. Another thing I don't like, I think
it's too artificial to speak of a chairperson.
‘Chairman’ is a generic term and it can apply to
women as well as to men. I think that's going to an extreme.
You'd think that England would be just as equal as we but I had clippings sent from many English newspapers in regard to job opportunities. I was amazed that so many of the ads would list the range of women's salaries lower than the range of men's salaries for the same job.
What year was this?
This was
Unabashedly they listed the women's jobs at lesser salaries.
Yes. There were other ads which specified
And hopefully open the doors for other women.
Yes, they could.
I wonder if you remember from the period before the nineteenth amendment
and immediately following what groups in Tennessee or around you that
you were
I don't believe that there was too much vociferous opposition. I think it would have been more disinterest and lethargy and "let the thing roll along."
You don't think that certain business corporations felt a distinct interest in keeping women in the home?
I would have to turn to the newspapers for that. I'm not sure that they
did. I was not aware of pressuresby corporations. I suppose I was with
people who were more broad minded and with people who believed that
women had capabilities. I wouldn't be in touch with those who opposed.
Some women themselves didn't want the franchise. They said,
"we're getting along well enough without it; we'll just open a
Pandora's box." "We will get into
Didn't want to assume the responsibilities of citizenship.
No, they did not. Naturally when they received the vote they didn't
assume the responsibility. Some of them not even registered or voted.
It's a little narrow to want to restrict this activity for women, because there will always be some who do want to exercise this privilege.
That's why we were obliged to have status of women committees, to
stimulate the women, to motivate them. They just weren't interested;
they weren't going to do anything about it. And they resented some of
the activities of status of women's groups, too. I would say now that I
really believe that the women's "lib" movement is
doing women more harm than good. Yes, I do. I talked to the convener of
our committee who was Madame Helene Thalman-Antennen from Switzerland,
and I said, "You know we have worked to advance women
educationally. We have wanted more women to take higher degrees. We
wanted more women to take professional
Oh, this isn't universal in the women's movement.
It isn't in the women's movement but it is with some of these people who protest and get on television.
In every movement you have an extreme wing.
But they're the ones that you hear from. You don't hear as much from the women who took the position that we did. You just don't hear from them like you hear from these extreme women "libbers."
There's a position taken in the women's movement that marriage is to be encouraged but marriage of a fifty-fifty partnership.
Well, definitely. Those of us who graduated
Yes, I know that my mother did.
So we never thought of a woman having an inferior role at all.
Do you remember any groups that supported the idea of the nineteenth amendment, that positively encouraged that it be passed and after it was passed, that worked in favor of an active role for women in the world at large? Any organized groups, clubs, busines organizations?
I'm sure that some of the church women did.
I suppose that the Y.W.C.A. . . . .
The Y.W.C.A. would and the A.A.U.W. which was organized around . . . let's see. The Association of Collegiate Alumni was organized in 1882, in Boston. They always assumed leadership there. The Southern Association of College Women was organized around 1908 and they always took that position. The two organizations merged in 1921 to become the American Association of University Women.
Were there any men's organizations that promoted, worked in favor of an active role for women or for the suffrage amendment?
I wasn't familiar with men's organizations at that particular time. There
hasn't been anything
Do you remember any person coming forward visiting Randolph-Macon or Chattanooga, where you were a young person before college years, or in the 1920's, when I suppose you were married and a bride, settling down? Do you remember any individuals, particularly from this state, that you heard opposing women's active role?
Well, I didn't come to this state until 1925. No. The lectures that I heard didn't deal with suffrage at all.
What about women's active role in the world at large?
Of course that was always the point of view of our speakers at Randolph-Macon. Women were always urged to give service to the community and service to the nation. I'm sure that Dr. John R. Mott, who visited us on two occasions at Randolph-Macon speaking for the Y.M.C.A. and the Y.W.C.A. and the world movement, would naturally show us the roles of women, the opportunities that women had. We had many people like that but they did it in a natural way.
Were you inspired?
Of course I was inspired when we had these great speakers but I didn't have a new point of view. I was in a family where I learned from early childhood that women were equal to men and that women had opportunities. My father began talking about my going to Randolph-Macon when I was just a little tot. I thought in terms of whether I wanted to be a teacher. I really wanted to be a lawyer.
Did you?
Yes.
Why did you not pursue that, Mrs. Boyd?
I didn't pursue it for the simple reason that women had such a difficult time in law. They were assigned the paper work and kept behind the scenes.
I think it's changing.
Oh it is. We have a woman judge here in Spartanburg. They're giving a reception for her tomorrow night.
Yes. I invited her to speak at our Women in Focus Week at the University last February and she was snowed out. It was during the snow storm in February.
Yes, I know because I was stranded in Orangeburg for five days and nights. That was quite an experience.
Wasn't it? Orangeburg had it worse than any
I'm not a very good one to focus on the uniqueness of visualizing an active view of women because nothing that modern speakers said came as a surprise to me. I wasn't startled at all. I'd always thought of myself as a person even from earliest childhood. I could do anything I wanted to do with proper education, training, and determination.
I wonder if at Randolph-Macon, you and the other students were inspired to go out into professional life or were you coached to seek marriage and then community service as a wife?
At the time that I was at Randolph-Macon, I wasn't aware that women had
much opportunity in anything but teaching. Evidently, Randolph-Macon did
not motivate or stimulate in a broad sense. Practically everybody that I
knew was going to teach until they married. That was their plan. Of
course, I married at the end of my second year. After all, I didn't just
hear speakers from 1918 to '20. Then, when I went
to the University of South Carolina, in 1931, this was a different era.
Naturally at that time we tried to push women educationally and
economically and politically.
Mrs. Boyd, you returned to college then as a junior at the University of South Carolina?
Yes I did.
Were you married then?
Yes, I had been married in 1920 right out of Randolph-Macon. So, I had been married eleven years and I had a six-year-old daughter.
You commuted down to Columbia?
I had lost my husband then and I had to provide for my child.
I didn't feel equipped to make an
Down in Columbia?
In Columbia.
Then you lived in Columbia.
I lived in Columbia. I thoroughly enjoyed teaching there. I enjoyed the
co-educational classes. I enjoyed the sociology and the school of social
work flourished for three years. Then, the Federal government removed
the funds. The understanding had been that I would return these classes
to the three who had given them up. I did. That's when I came to
Converse. It was real interesting. I came in '37 but in '47 I married
Mr. Jesse Boyd, who is an attorney. He's retired now but he has been an
attorney here all these years. In fact, there's an elementary
I was told this by the young man at the grocery store that gave me my directions. Do you keep in touch with the sociology department at the University?
Not at the University. Well, I do to some extent because Mary Calvert is
a good friend of mine She is
What was his name?
I can't think of it.
I know Chairman Hatch.
Hatch was the one, David Hatch. His wife taught at Colunbia College. I guess she still does. I am in touch, of course, with the sociology department at Converse still. I teach at Limestone. [College, in Gaffney]
You do?
Yes. I retired two years ago and I've taught two years at Limestone.
Where is that?
It's twenty miles from here in Gaffney. It was a woman's college for many
years. Some even called it "The Vassar of the South."
It was a very well-known woman's college. It was established in
mid-nineteenth century. It's co-educational now. It The Foundations of Practical Gerontology.
You do?
Yes. The University of South Carolina Press did this one book of ours
Charles Oakes and I collaborated. I have a copy of the first edition but
I don't have a copy of the new book because I gave it to somebody the
other day. I'll have to order another one. We had institutes at
Converse.
Also published by the University of South Carolina?
Yes, published by the University of South Carolina Press. It came out two
months ago. It has in it six new articles
I'm just happy to hear that. I didn't know that you had published, too.
Of course, I wrote a book on The Social Adjustment of the
Greeks in Spartanburg, South Carolina. That was not published
in the University of South Carolina Press.
While you were teaching at Converse?
Yes. It was under a Carnegie Foundation Grant.
Did you find that the attitude at Converse toward inspiring their students to go forth in the world was similar to that which you encountered at Randolph-Macon? The expectation was marriage but then activity in the community?
No, it was really quite different. At Converse from the very beginning of the time that I was there, girls expected to work. At Randolph-Macon they thought that if they worked, they'd teach. Lots of them didn't have expectation of teaching long. At Converse from the very beginning in '37, girls were going to be sure that they had a profession or vocation.
The difference was the decade, wasn't it?
Yes, it was. Just the change in times in which we lived because the same
thing was happening at
I wonder if these young women at Converse in the thirties realized these expectations and did indeed find a career in the professions or if they followed the traditional pattern and were married.
It's been said that Converse students marry within the first twelve months after graduation but it was surprising to see how many continued work. Even when they stopped to have a child or two, most of them that I see have returned to a job. They have not really just been protected and supported by husbands. They have done their part in providing for the family. Randolph-Macon alumnae have too, I'm sure of that. I'm also sure that there were some girls at Randolph-Macon who were thinking of a profession other than teaching. There were large numbers of students in science. They weren't all thinking of teaching. There were a good many in other fields that might have been leading them in the direction of being a journalist or a writer or maybe in government through political science. But, the general run of the students at Randolph-Macon when I was there thought that teaching was the only thing open.
You're my first oral history narrator who has been actively engaged in
higher education. Mabel Politzer
Yes. Now at Converse for several years we had women in various professions and occupations to come for a program and to tell the students why they went into this field, what they found in it. The students could then ask them questions. That seemed to be very helpful.
Do you think they're doing that now?
Yes, they are doing quite a bit along that line now. They're having all types of speakers at the present time in regard to women's opportunities or women's interests.
Were you engaged in any of the other movements that were on the periphery of the woman's movement in the 1920's or as a student at Randolph-Macon?
I was not a joiner at that time. I belonged to the Kappa Delta sorority but I wasn't a joiner.
Then you were not in the anti-war or pro-war
No. That's another thing. I was just born to believe in (interruption)
BEGIN SIDE I TAPE II
I have been outspoken and have made talks in favor of women's advancement, in favor of peace and all that sort of thing but I never have joined movements, marched anywhere, or waved a banner.
Did you follow the child labor movement, the movement for the abolition of child labor?
Oh, yes. I worked very faithfully on that, both through the Y.W.C.A. in which I was active in Sumter, South Carolina in 1925 to '31, and then I made talks after that in regard to the abolition of child labor. Served on many panels of the State Conference of Social Work.
You did mention that you took a position on wages and hours legislation for women.
Yes, I did. I remember thinking of child labor and thinking of the school drop-out problem and thinking of juvenile delinquency. I served on panels in Clinton, South Carolina and in Columbia with Strom Thurmond who at that time was very interested in that sort of thing.
How did you get about all over the state so well? There weren't the interstate freeways.
We've always had good roads since I've been in South Carolina.
This movement was a little bit before your time but were you aware of the temperance movement?
Yes, quite aware of that because another aspect of my nature is that I'm a very religious person. The temperance movement came to me through the church.
Are you Baptist?
Methodist. I was always interested and in a way active.
These movements touched on the woman's suffrage movement now and then in its history.
Yes they did.
Do you remember how, if at all, an appeal was pitched to support the movement for the nineteenth amendment to working class women, to mill women, if there indeed was such an appeal?
If there was, I don't see how it could have been very congenial to them.
Why not?
Do you think that it was because they might have wanted equal opportunities in the mill and equal income in the mill and that sort of thing?
Yes.
But I think that the appeal would have had to be on that level rather
than just appealing to them to vote. If mill women were stimulated by
this sort of appeal, it might be because they could add to the male vote
to win for working people shorter hours of work and higher wages,
bargaining power, et cetera. That could have been the approach to them.
But if it's just an approach of emancipating women and getting women to
vote and run for office, it was too opposed to what they had known in
their own homes in childhood and what they found in their own homes in
adulthood. I think it would have been too foreign to their way of
thinking. If the appeal had come to them as standing shoulder to
shoulder to increase their husband's vote by one and
then to add up the voting strength of married people in the mill, this
might have appealed to them. For single women in industry, I think it
might have had an appeal to be promoted as quickly as a man to make as
high wages. There could have been different approaches.
One critic of the suffrage movement has deplored
Yes, I really do. I really think so. The matriarchy and not the single woman. Today the situation is rather reversed. The single woman wants the equal rights amendment if she's a professional or business woman and a property owner. The majority of women below that level just don't. I don't think the married woman is too interested in the Equal Rights Amendment. Now it is the single business and professional woman who wants the equal rights amendment.
Those that I know that are actively working for the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment are married professional women.
But they are professional women.
For the most part. I would say that secretaries are . . . .
Too many of the home maker married women who are not working and not
professional think that this would maybe be harmful to them because it
might remove their security or support. It might be detrimental to
them.
Yes, and every homemaker should, if she's interested in her daughters' futures.
I think she should, too.
She should be interested because of her daughters.
I've been very active in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment. I was on the Connecticut Committee for the Equal Rights Amendment,
How could that be?
They didn't confine the people on their committee to their state. So I
was on that for years. Then, as chairman of the Status of Women
Committee, I did everything in my power at national conventions to get
the A.A.U.W. to give up its opposition. We came very near passing a
measure that would have freed us from the opposition but there was some
parliamentary snarl and it had to carry over to the next convention. It
wasn't changed at the next convention, but it has been now. So they are
actively favoring the Equal Rights Amendment. I think in this
enlightened age, it's really the only approach. Of course they say that
women would have to fight beside men and that
So very, very few men actually see combat these days. There's a tiny, tiny percentage that ever see combat duty. The likelihood that a woman would see combat is the same percentage. That's a weak argument.
Yes, that's a very weak arguement. Surely it is, but that's one that they advance.
The historian William O'Neill says that after 1920 the National American Women's Suffrage Association that had achieved its goal fell apart and women failed to use the vote effectively. We have already commented and you agree with this. He says they didn't even tackle the economic base of their oppression, their dependence on men and restriction to the home.
Yes, I agree with this.
But Gerda Lerner, the historian at Sarah Lawrence College and author of
the book The Grimkè Sisters of South
Carolina, says that they dispersed into local activity but did not
give up being active.
I was previously speaking of our local women who helped to organize the Y.W. here, organized Travelers' Aid here, and the Family Service, et cetera.
Was this in the 1920's?
These were Mrs. Howard Carlisle, Mrs. Stepp, Mrs. Mary Phifer and all that group whose daughters were in college at the time. They did all of this community service.
And they had been active though in the community before the nineteenth amendment was passed?
Yes, they'd been interested in community service even then. But you know in the Equal Rights Amendment where they say that mothers would not be protected, we have protective legislation and special legislation for veterans, men who have been in the service. We could very well have some special legislation for women who are pregnant or women who are mothers of young children. It doesn't rule that out.
No it doesn't.
Not at all. As far as alimony is concerned, I don't think a woman should take alimony if she can possibly be independent and look after herself. If she does and if she is better off than the man, then she should be the one to pay alimony.