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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0026, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
This is an interview with Grace Towns Hamilton, member of the Georgia House of Representatives, conducted by Jacquelyn Hall in Atlanta, Georgia on July 19, 1974. Transcribed by Sarah Geer.
Grace Towns Hamilton was born in Atlanta, Georgia, in 1907. She begins with a brief overview of her family history, describing her family's roots in Georgia and Virginia and her possible connection to a woman enslaved by Governor George Towns, the secessionist governor of Georgia from 1847 to 1851. By the time Hamilton was born, her mother and father had settled in Atlanta, where her father taught at Atlanta University. While her father was active at the university and the NAACP, Hamilton's mother focused on community activities, namely the Gate City Kindergarten Association. Hamilton recalls her childhood years with fondness, stressing the racially integrative nature of the Atlanta University community. In fact, it was not until she left Atlanta in 1927 to take a job with the YWCA in Columbus, Ohio, that she first became aware of racial segregation and discrimination. Hamilton had been actively involved with the YWCA during her college years at Atlanta University, and she explains how although the YWCA continued to have racially segregated conventions, the organization was more progressive than others during those years. She accepted the position in Ohio so that she could go to graduate school. Hamilton spent time in Memphis, Tennessee, during the 1930s and early 1940s. By 1943, she returned to Atlanta, where she soon became the director of Atlanta's branch of the Urban League. Hamilton held this position until 1960. She describes her focus on investigating inequalities in segregated education, on advocating for voter registration, and in providing access to housing for African Americans. In addition to discussing her extensive work with the YWCA and the Urban League, Hamilton also addresses her association with such organizations as the Southern Tenant Farmers Union and the Southern Regional Council, as well as her perception of and relationship with other leading activists of the era. Hamilton concludes the interview with a brief discussion of the sit-in movement of 1960 in Atlanta and her election to the Georgia state legislature in 1965.
Grace Towns Hamilton was raised in Atlanta, where both of her parents were involved in community service and issues of social justice. Following family tradition, Hamilton was an active participant in the YWCA during the 1920s, and during the 1940s and 1950s she was the director for Atlanta's Urban League. She describes her work with these organizations, focusing on issues of segregation, education, voter registration, and housing.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
How did… First, tell me a little bit about your parents, and their parents. About your origins.
All right. I grew up on the campus of Atlanta University. My father graduated from Atlanta University, and then went to Harvard. Came back to Atlanta University as a member of their faculty, and that is where the greatest part of his life was spent.
Was that about 1895 when he started teaching at A.U.?
I guess so. Famous class of '96, and I think he graduated from here, from
Atlanta. Let me get… is it important? It would be important to pin down
the dates. Let me see if I can't… I can't…
You don't go back that far. Your father was a young professor living in a dormitory when you were born?
Yes. I was born in the dormitory, then, I was…
When were you born?
In 1907. And then he came… he graduated from Harvard in the class of 1900, and then, you know, came back here and was working consecutively.
What is his… how did he happen to go to Harvard? What did his father… ?
I don't know why… how he happened to go to Harvard, except I guess
because, at that period, there were probably people in the University… I
don't know whether Dr. Bumps went to Harvard. Most of the people who
were part of the early Atlanta University faculty that I remember were
more identified with Yale. Mr. Ware was a Yale graduate. I don't really
know why he went to Harvard. His father, my grandfather, was a cotton
sampler. I don't know what a cotton sampler is, but…
Your grandfather was a cotton sampler.
Cotton sampler. And he lived… my father's family lived in Albany.
What was your grandfather's name?
Towns. Lou Towns. And the little bit I know about his life, I discovered after he was dead when we were clearing out… going through his papers, and everything. And there I found this family tree and Grandpa… Lou Towns was the… Well, I'd better put it this way. Governor Towns, Governor George Towns, was my father's great uncle. Which I… and these notes from my father had… were things about… that he could remember about his father. And we were all very, very interested, and the notes… I don't remember his ever talking about that, but just an interesting thing.
Oh. You found… in your family papers, were you able to trace your family back… ?
Well, when I found this thing, I went… I don't know what's down in the archives, 'cause they haven't done anything about that, but that year I did ask for whatever the state archives had on Governor Towns, and found out… got a copy of his will, which was found, which was a very, very interesting document.
Why? What did it say?
They were Scotch-Irish people, and came into Georgia from Virginia. And
his will made special designations of property for a Negro woman who was
obviously… I guess, was a slave, in Virginia. And she came… they
apparently, in Georgia, he lived in the Talbot part of the estate…
Governor Towns provided in his will for a…
For a woman. I have a xerox copy of the will, which, sometime, you know, you could go look at it.
I'd like to. And what relation was she… ?
I don't remember enough about her, whether there was any clue, you know, to why…
What about your mother?
My mother's family… My mother was a McNair, and she lived all her life in
Atlanta. And my grandmother lived with us for all of my life. My
mother's father died… I don't have any recollection of him at all. And
my mother went to Atlanta University and taught for a very… She taught
in Columbus, Georgia, I think, before she was married, but then never
taught school after that.
Now, was your mother a friend of Mrs. John Hopes? Did she work with her in the neighborhood union, and… ?
Well, Mrs. Hope … yes, they were friends, but Mrs. Hope came to Atlanta, I guess … I don't know when. I guess maybe about 1910 or 19…I don't think before 1910. And they… all of the social welfare activity, there was a social… what was then known as the Gate City Free Kindergarten Association. It's now become the Gate City Day Nursery Association, was my mother's major interest. I don't remember whether Mrs. Hope was with that at all, but there were parallel ways of providing social services in the Negro community. And…
Was… Mrs. Hope was not instrumental in founding the Gate City Kindergarten? She… ?
She wasn't here. It was founded long before she came to Atlanta.
Oh. Do you know who started it, or at what time… ?
Yes. Mrs. Gertrude Ware Bunts, who taught kindergarten, and Miss Amy Chadwick, who was an English woman who ran the Chadwick Orphan Home, which is the building which is now one of the Spellman buildings. And Mrs. Wynn, who was an Atlanta University graduate, and my mother, and… people who were in one way or another related to A.U. founded this Free Kindergarten Association. And operated…
Was the kindergarten for the children of A.U. people?
Oh, no.
It was for everyone?
I think they finally had five, in various… in neighborhoods pretty much around this part of the city, at that time. Though now they are all over, I mean, these day nurseries. They have five or six day nurseries in… you know, other parts of the community.
So they had five buildings in different places?
Oh, yes.
Did they have… were the kindergartens held in homes, or… ?
No, they had little rented facilities. They were, you know, little houses.
And was it completely free? Journal of Negro History by
I wouldn't be surprised.
One of the things that she says is that the Gate City Free Kindergarten Association was started by Mrs. John Hope.
It surely was not.
That's what I thought.
And I doubt… now, when Mrs. Hope came to Atlanta she may have… it would not have been surprising, because, you know, in a small community, all… or large community, the number of women at that period who had leisure and time and all to give to this, to give… Because all social work activity at that period was non-professional in the sense that…
Voluntary.
… it was all voluntary service. AndBut she was certainly not a founder of the Gate City Free Kindergarten Association.
But the kindergartens were staffed by volunteers, mostly women like your mother… ?
They weren't staffed by them. The board was made up of these women who had the job of raising the money for them and hiring the staff and providing what in this day and age we call supervision. But they were not staffed primarily by volunteers. Of course, the pay was small, but they were… they had paid staff.
Were they women from the community who were… ?
I would guess so.
Poor women who… ?
No, people - most of them - who had some training in kindergarten work.
Because one woman who just died, just a few years ago, was an A.U.
graduate, I know, and worked in… I guess they'd call it now the head
teacher. And she was a normal graduate of Atlanta
How did they raise money?
Tag sales, candy sales, bake and everything that they could do. All that kind of…
And this was the earliest day care facility in Atlanta?
As far as I know. I know it's older than the… it was the first, and for a long time, the only child care agency that was a member of the Child Welfare League. So at the very beginning, they were interested in quality care. And I just saw a notice in the paper that the present president of the Gate City Day Nursery Association has just been chosen a vice-president of the Child Welfare League. So that, you know, it's had… I know that when I worked at the Urban League, the Day Nursery Association had been and was then a member of the Child Welfare League and the other child… the other voluntary nursery association… What's it called? did not belong, you know. Was not at that time a member.
I see. What else was your mother involved in?
That, and the YWCA I think were her two major concerns. She was a… she was the chairman of the committee of management, and the treasurer for many, many years, of the branch of the YWCA. And active in the YWCA.
Yeah. What was it like growing up in Atlanta University?
Oh, we'd need longer than this to tell you. It was like growing up in a
little piece of society that was very unlike anything around it. You
know, you find this out later. It was a very happy life, because… The
thing that was unique about Atlanta University,
The faculty was mainly white?
No. But the children who were in the neighborhood, who were our regular playmates, were campus children. The children of faculty. Not all, but there were as many white as black, is the point.
What was the difference in A.U. and other black colleges… ?
In this regard?
Yeah.
Well, one thing that always comes to mind is that there was no difference
in the dining room, there was no faculty dining room. The faculty ate
with the students. And there was no difference between… And then,
another instance which is recorded in history, is that the state of
Georgia used to give Atlanta University some little bit of money back in
those early days. Bacon's got a lot about that in his book. But there
was some question raised about the children of faculty attending the
Overfalls School, which was the elementary - and became the practice
school for teacher training. And the children of faculty went to Atlanta
University just like the white children of faculty went there. And when
there was some state visitor, this was discovered, and that became the
basis for the state demanding that the charter of the University be
changed, or they would sacrifice their money. Unless
You know, I think a lot of black colleges were rather authoritarian and hierarchical, particulary where they were run by… had started with white missionaries.
I guess in some ways the ways of education were more authoritarian than they are now, but I think this business that I'm talking about is the difference in the human relations and class relationships, which was just never present as a part of Atlanta University's tradition. And I'm sure it was due to the kind of people that were in the, you know, in the early… the early presidents and the early faculty.
Did you have… did you realize what a special situation you were in?
I didn't realize it until I left here and went on my first job, really. Now, this may seem very simple-minded, but after I graduated from Atlanta University I went to Columbus for my first job as girls' work secretary in the YWCA, in the Phyllis Wheatley Branch, the colored… the Negro branch.
Columbus, Ohio?
Columbus, Ohio. And that was the first time I really experienced the
realities of a segregated society. You know, when I saw this at my age,
you wonder how you could have been… But it's an example of the effect of
which your life… Now, even when I was in college…
Your father was involved in voter registration drives, wasn't he?
When he retired, must have been… I'm trying to place it in time. Must
have been about 1942 or '43, because he had worked for a time as acting
president of Fortd Valley State College, after he retired from Atlanta
University. But this was the first year he was retired, and in fact, he…
People went down to the next building to give in their taxes. I don't
guess they do that now, but you would go down to the courthouse and give
in your taxes between the first of January and March, and of course it
was a poll tax at that time, accumulated poll tax, which you had to pay
back, I don't know how many years, if you had not been registered, in
order to… So papa used to go to the courthouse just as if he was going
to a job, and talk to the Negros in the line waiting to give in their
taxes, and ask them if they had ever thought about registering to vote.
And they would say, "Yes," They'd thought about it, but they had never
registered
Did he wait until he was retired to do something like that because he was afraid of the trouble it would bring to A.U.?
Oh, no. He was a part of… he was one of the founding members of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP.
Oh, really.
But, I mean, this was… he had time to do this exclusively, and that's why this particular …
When was the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP founded?
Oh, I can't remember. It must have been about 1910, I guess.
He worked with De Bois?
Yes. DeBois was a member of the faculty at Atlanta
Did you have a feeling of difference between yourself… your own family and the Atlanta University campus, and the rest of the black community?
No, because you had… the white people whom we saw were all people who were just, you know, part of the human race. And there were many contacts, many, many friends of the University who were friends of the people that… Philip Weltner, who was a good friend of the people, so he… People in the Atlanta community, not any large numbers, but there were always some, see.
But there's a… Did you have a feeling of being in a fairly privileged and isolated situation, within…
No, we thought this was what the world was like.
How did you happen to go to work for the YWCA as your first job?
Well, I had been very active in the student association at the school, both locally, and then I had been elected a vice-president of the National Student Assembly, when I was a sophomore, I think it was. So that, you know, I was interested in the program of the YWCA. And that was one job offer, and the reason I… I know the reason I decided to go there was because I it as an opportunity to go to graduate school, as I did, after the first semester. And I did my graduate work in psychology at Ohio State.
Oh, I see. Tell me a little bit about the racial policies of the YWCA at that time. It seems to me that at least before 1920, and maybe after, the Y in the South was segregated.
Oh, the Y… the thing to remember about the YWCA is that though they were like most institutions, they, I think, provided the cutting edge in raising the question and modifying their own practices.
Even in the South?
Oh, yes, even in the South. Earlier than any other institution. I know much before the YWCA was so bold as to question the practices, because…
Where and when did that begin?
Well, that began even when I was a student. I graduated from college in 1927, and there were Negro members of the, what was then called the Regional Student Council, elected from all the student associations across the country. But there was… there would be… the conferences were segregated conferences. Summer conferences, which the major program event in the college YWCA. There were segregated conferences.
Were they held at Blue Ridge?
The white conference was held at Blue Ridge, and the Negro conference was
held at College, most frequently. The one in the southern region. And
the YWCA had an integrated council. The Negro members were elected from
the conference, and the white members were elected from Blue Ridge. And
then they'd have their joint council meetings. But it was a big deal
about finding places for the meeting in the region, and much todo. But
that is the origin of the YWCA's early questioning, and they… From that
period on, they were, you know, among the groups that were regarded as
radical,
Was there a difference between the student council… the student part of the Y and the…
Well, it was a unit. It was a business unit
Now, that's… you can find written material about this, but I can't cite you the sources, national or local. The YWCA would know.
Do you know where the papers are that relate to your work in the YWCA,
substantial
Well, I guess … I don't…
Yeah, I want to look into the YWCA papers. One reason I was asking that is it seems… as I wrote about the beginning of the Women's Committee of the Interracial Commission, one thing that I found that had not been written about was the important role that black women played in initiating that. And the way the Interracial Commission… the origin has always been written about as having been due to the initiative of… first of white men and then of white women.
Well, that's just not true.
And I found some very interesting things about, first of all,
And some of these same people were… I don't know whether the organization indirectly… 'cause, see, it was a little before my time, but Mrs. Wynn… There was a… the national YWCA staff had a Negro staff person for the… They called it the Department of Colored Work, or something of the kind. And they always had… they had national… they had Negro students there, people who… national staff people who would… One of my dear friends was a member of the national… They never had more than one or two Negro women, Negro staff in the student department out of a group maybe of twelve, you know, cross the country… was Frances Williams. Now, I think her… she worked for the… what was known as the Interracial… Department of Interracial Education, I think. And I think when I sent… I know those things are in the Negro collection, program papers of the…
Did you know Eva Bowles?
Yes. Miss Bowles was Mrs. Wynn's sister. Miss Bowles was there before Mrs. Wynn, that's right.
I see. And she was a national staff member. Do you remember any of the other women who were early… ?
Well, Miss Bowles and Mrs. Wynn were the first two, and then there were these student staff people. Juanita Saddler, Frances Williams, Julia were national staff. Members of the national staff.
Did the Negro women on the national board… ?
Yes.
When did that begin? Do you know who those early… ?
Well, I know who some of them were. I don't… Mrs. E. P. Roberts, Ruth Logan Roberts, was a member. She lives in New York City and was a member of the national board. One of the very early and first. I mean, I don't know whether the first. Oh, let me see who else. I know Ruth was…
Charlotte Hawkins Brown?
I don't remember if she was on the national board or whether she… She may have been. I don't remember.
Do you remember anything about a controversy in Atlanta, before 1920, around… It was going on, I guess, between 1918 and 1921, over… It was over a number of different things, but it was… the black branches of the Y had to operate under different by-laws.
I don't know anything about that. That's the YMCA, too.
Both.
I don't think it was both. Because I don't think the YWCA… The YWCA had branches, and they didn't…
There wasn't any…
I don't know that of my personal knowledge, but I know that there was something that the YMCA organization. They didn't have to… in fact, I think the Butler Street YMCA now is separately chartered. It may be by choice. I don't know.
You don't remember any controvery within the Y over…?
Not that I would know. See, I wouldn't have… I don't even remember
hearing about it. And anyway
Do you know Katherine Lumkin?
Oh, yes. Of course I do. Do you know Katharine Lumkin?
I have been corresponding. I'm going to interview her in Virginia the first week in August.
Oh, well, give her my love, because she was the student secretary in the southern region, a member of an active student staff, during the time I was in college, and during the time my friend Frances Williams, who was an acting staff member. And I… When are you going to see her?
First week in August, I hope.
Up in… ?
Virginia.
… Virginia, where she lives? I have promised myself some day I'm going to see her. I get a little note from her every year, saying, "And when are you coming?"
Well, she… she mentioned you…
Did she?
… and told me that I should talk to you. I already knew I should, but she was… What about Howard Kester? Do you remember him from those days?
Oh, yeah. I knew Howard Kester. He was a dear, dear friend. In those days we used to talk about… see, there were the… I happened to believe that the sharpest push in changing the practices related to segregation was provided by the student movement of that period.
In the twenties?
In the twenties, that's right. And Frances tells these stories - I don't
really remember them, but Howard Kester was in the…
Who were some other leaders of the student movement you worked with?
Oh, I haven't thought about this in so long. You mean students?
Yeah.
Well, I can remember the people who were on the Southern… the Southern Regional… the Council, the Student Council of the Southern Region, let me see… at the same time that I was. Let me see if I can remember who some of them were. Well, Norma Logan, who is a member of the national YWCA staff now, was one. Dr. Myer Logan, who is a surgeon now in New York City. She's Mrs. Charles Austin. And… let me think. Frances could tell you even more people.
Where is she living?
She lives in St. Louis. And, of course, has been retired for some years.
She worked for many years in Senator Leeman's office as a legislative
aide. I don't think I can be very helpful on this
All right.
Names would come to me if I really thought about it, but I'd have to…
When you refer to the student movement, do you mean primarily the YW and YMCA?
I mean primarily the YWCA.
Let me ask you one other thing about this. How do you account for the YWCA being so much more progressive than the YMCA?
Leadership.
But why were young women better leaders or more aggressive leaders or… ?
I don't know. I'd have to think about that, about why. But I don't think there's any question that there was more… there were more people with real sparks, more white and black women, in the YWCA than was true… You know, it's always bad to be judgmental, but it's an interesting question about why.
Has the Y continued to play that role, do you think?
I think so.
I have a friend who…
Talking about the national YWCA right now.
I think, though, that even in the civil rights movement, at least for white students, a lot of the white students in the South, who were sympathetic towards the civil righs movement, involvement in it came out of the YWCA.
Out of the YWCA.
The women in it.
I couldn't prove that, but I wouldn't be at all surprised
So you worked in Columbus, Ohio for a fairly short time as girls' work secretary, and then went to graduate school, and then you came back to A.U. and taught, I think.
Then I came back to Atlanta and taught for a semester or part of a year at the School of Social Work, and then I taught at Clark for a couple of years. Then I married and we moved to Memphis and I taught at Le Moyne College for a little while.
Did you move to Memphis because of your husband?
My husband was dean of a small college. Of Le Moyne College.
He was dean of Le Moyne College?
At Le Moyne College. And then I think we organized a Negro branch in Memphis. I had to organize a Negro YMCA branch in Memphis, that they had not had. I think there was… I know there was a white association, but they had no activity in the Negro community. And then I worked for the student division of the YWCA as… kind of a part time basis, but I think I was called secretary of the interracial activities, or something like that.
What did you do?
Largely worked within student congresses, with the leadership group. Helped develop material related to what was then called interracial education.
Did you visit college campuses?
I did very little college campus work. I would do… I did… I worked in
student conferences across the country, and then
Yeah. Did you work, or have any relationship to the New Deal, the relief organizations. The WPA or the…
I had a job as the director of… what'd they call it? (To someone else in
room.)
One thing you said earlier that I forgot to follow up was that you didn't really realize what a segregated society was like until you moved to Columbus, Ohio.
Then I had to cope with it, with the community. And I came face to face with the limitations of a… Columbus was exactly segregated in every way, including institutions, as was Atlanta. And may still be. May still be more so.
Right. Right. Right… Right. What kinds of experiences did you have there? You were working for the Y, and what were…
Yeah, but it was all things about arranging for meetings, and occasions
for all the girl reserves to do things together, that
But when you had worked with the Y here, that had not been a problem?
No, because I had worked for the student association. We had a student association on the campus of Atlanta University. And my life in the YWCA was largely inter-collegiate activity, by virtue of the conferences and by virtue of the student councils, which was the representative body.
And there were white as well as black students involved in it?
Yes.
In Columbus, were the white and black branches of the Y, did they desire to cooperate with one another…?
Well, perhaps they did. They had… I don't know what they called them. It'd be like ex-officio members from the black Board of Directors to the white overall board. I can't remember details, except that it was all, you know, by… you would… I guess the chairman of the black board would be ex-officio on the white board of directors, but there was not any integrated direction.
So you worked… you lived in Memphis for what? Four or five years?
Did what?
You lived in Memphis…?
No, we lived in Memphis for fifteen years. Came back to Atlanta to live in '43.
You were there when the Southern Tenant Farmers Union was being organized, then?
Yes.
Did you have any… What was your… ?
I think I made a trip over to Arkansas with Charlie Huston once, to visit with, you know, ride through eastern Arkansas where Because we had lots of friends who were involved, either in the legal activity or… of the NAACP, or in a certain kind of farmer's union. So that would be a good stopping off place.
Were you involved in the NAACP in Memphis? Was there… ?
Yeah.
… a branch? Tell me a little bit about the NAACP in the South during that period. How strong was it, and how active? Where would you place it among…
It's all it was, all there was.
It was all there was?
I can remember there were very few Urban Leagues through the South. Certainly when… even when I came to the League in '43 there weren't but, oh, six or seven Urban Leagues in the South, and that went up as far as Oklahoma.
How strong was the NAACP in the South?
I can't speak about anything except what I know about, in the Atlanta area.
What about in Memphis and Atlanta?
We had a very strong branch in Memphis. We had a very strong branch in…
About how many members?
I can't remember.
Several hundred?
I would guess so.
What… you didn't work the Commission on Interracial Cooperation at all, did you?
No.
Why did you not do that? Why did you not… what did the YWCA and NAACP rather than the Interracial Commission…
All I can remember about the Commission is the Commission would have conferences to which student organizations would be invited. And you'd know about their objectives, but there would be no way. I mean, I was not an adult in the community at the time when they were doing whatever they did, you know. Now, I was a part of the original group that… not the incorporators, but whatever the original group that organized… the organizing group that became the Southern Regional Council. I was a member of that group at the time of its origin.
But you weren't aware of the Interracial Commission?
Yes, I was aware of it. I knew Mr. Alexander and I knew Ms. Ames, but, I mean, I was not, in terms of doing anything about what they were about, except just sort of… I knew Mr. Alexander more. I guess after he went to work with…
The Farm Security Administration?
Yeah. Farm Security.
How did you know Miss Ames?
I guess I knew… my contacts with her must have come by way of student groups.
She came as a speaker?
Probably.
What was your impression of her?
I just remember she was a lady doing good works.
Did… how was the Interracial Commission viewed by the time you were aware
of its existence in the thirties, by the black community, or by people
that you knew who were active in the NAACP and other organizations?
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
… encourage and be helpful in what ways you could be to anybody that was operating in any area of the Y. And I imagine the leadership of the… that there was a great deal of overlapping leadership. People who were active in the NAACP who were… Suddenly Mr. Hope was. Mr. Hope was suddenly among the people in the black community who were a part of the NAACP.
You simply viewed them as… mainly as being older than you? The leadership.
I don't believe I ever thought about it in terms of age.
So when did you move back to Atlanta?
We came back to Atlanta in '43.
And that's when you became director of the Urban League?
No. I didn't do anything for year but take a course with Dr. De Bois and
a course with Irene. Then the YWCA asked me if I'd come and join… do a
special half-time job, again, with the national YWCA staff. And I did.
And then in… after I'd been doing that about six months, the Atlanta
Urban League asked me if I would come and be their director. And I did.
Did you succeed in getting the Board of Education … ?
Yeah. They finally… the final decision on the bond issue was an issue of ten million I think split half and half. Maybe six million for white and four for colored schools. And then the efforts of the people that were involved in that really became the first group of plaintiffs in the Atlanta school suit.
Oh, really?
Some of them. Of course, they and their children were probably, oh… the original plaintiffs have long since grown and… but…
While you were working on trying to get equal appropriations for black schools, was it also being talked about and planned for…
Well, one thing leads to another, you see, when you… The strategies of people that have carried… The NAACP has nationally carried the … and has been most responsible for all the work on schools, integration. And their strategy, and I guess everybody's, was to press for equality. And then when it was quite clear, as time moved along … In fact, even the basis for the school suit … I can't even remember back… of course, we were not directly involved in it by then, because we had no way of doing the … except to be supportive of the NAACP. And the original suit … you see, it was long … I guess it was filed … the original Atlanta suit must have been filed even before 1954, when the national school decision came down. But I'm not clear about what … when the basis changed.
Who … what was the pressure on the school board that caused them to change their minds? The general … the press coverage?
Press coverage and people coverage of the extent of inequality.
Was their pressure from the white community as well as the…
Certainly. How else would it have ever gotten it changed? Negros have
never… I mean, our effort was to expose to the total community, the
tax-paying citizens of the city, the needs of the Negro schools. The
Board of Education certainly didn't do it, you know.
Who … what white organizations were your main allies?
Oh, I can't remember. 'Cause we got a list of all kinds of people. The League of Women Voters, the church groups, church women…
What about the League of Women Voters? How helpful have they been …
Very helpful.
… over the years, to the different things you've been involved in?
Well, of course, when I first came back to Atlanta to live, in '46, I
don't think they even accepted Negro women.
Frances Pauley was there.
Frances Pauley was active at that time.
Talmadge was plying this trade about that time.
Was what?
Was in power about that time. What kind of … were you involved in voter registration … ?
Yeah, the big deal, the big … The
In '46, I think, Rufus Clement was elected for school board, and …
Was that '46?
So that… Yeah. So that was at the same time.
That was part of the … when did the white primary … ? Of course, Atlanta
always had … When did the Texas decision come?
So the report on schools, and the voter registration drive. What were the other … ?
And the other big area that I think we made some fundamental …
How did you go about opening that area so blacks could move in?
Oh, that's a big … I can't tell you that. I have to go and let you talk to Tommy, who was the … Robert Thompson was our director of housing. And we talked about it, and then the board was back of it. And then we'd find people who were interesting in finding and acquiring land. We organized a corporation. I say we, an organization was … was organized as a part of this effort. And in order to buy a big enough tract, great big tract that's now out … and …
Was it private real estate developers that you …
No, in fact it was a company which bought the land and held it for development, see. And that was …
Did they make a … did the corporation make a profit?
They didn't actually even … yeah, they made a profit, but they didn't actually develop it. But the point was that it was in ownership which was sympathetic and which was strategically located, so that developers would have to take that into account. Then, I don't know in detail, but much of the same thing was done about the northwest. (To friend in room.) What do they call the northwest, Mattie? Crestwood Forest? That was that development, wasn't it? That's out in the… I don't know whether you know the city.
Yeah, a little bit.
This is the northwest area of Negro expansion.
Were you trying to challenge residential segregation in any way? Were you trying to make ?
No, we were primarily … at that time we were primarily concerned that there be living space for Negros all over the city.
Rather than …
And we were very careful not to say "areas for Negro residences," but "areas that would be available to Negroes," see. Because at that time there was a great shortage of housing for people. There hadn't been any building all during the war, and the federal programs to encourage housing were very… were … white people got the major benefit of them. And so it was all part of …
Were you able to get any F.H.A. money for those kind of things?
Yeah,
You had a brief interlude there when you were associate director of the Southern Regional Council.
I took a leave and went there for one year.
Why did you do that?
Well, I was interested in the Council, and …
Had you been active in it, up till then?
Yeah.
You were on the executive committee?
Yeah. And that was when George Mitchell was director. I got very discouraged in those days. George Mitchell said to me one when I was pressing for something to be done that, you know, not to worry because I was their symbol of interracial fellowship. And I said, "Oh, no. My days of being a symbol of anything have long since passed." I told some of my friends of that, at the time, and I don't … that is not in any disparagement of George Mitchell, because I had great appreciation for his leadership, but … and of the many things he did. And …
Why did he say that? What did he mean by that?
Well, I guess maybe some of the things that I was pressing them to do, he didn't … he figured they were not possible.
What kind of things were you pressing them to do?
I don't remember. I really can't remember.
Really?
… can't remember the specific ones, except that I was …
Well, that was around …
… facing a lot of frustration.
Yeah. That was around 1954, wasn't it? And the school desegregation decision had come down?
Might have been.
Was the Council moving with dispatch to try to … ?
Well, I guess I figured they weren't … I can't remember really what the specific thing was that I thought they ought to be doing that they weren't doing. But I thought I had some responsibility for it, as that part of the staff. And George was trying to make me feel better. He said, "Now, just relax, because you are our symbol of interracial…" And I said, "Indeed I'm not!"
[Laughter]
And did you leave pretty soon after that?
I think… I stayed for the period that I agreed to stay for. It was just a year.
Have you been active in the Council since then?
I haven't been on the board in years. I go to the … generally go to their meetings, but I was …
I've just been … I talked to Frances Pauley yesterday morning, and this afternoon I was talking to the young man who's now an interim director to the Georgia Council of Human Relations. And I am finding a really extraordinary amount of criticism and dissatisfaction with the Council around.
Well, I think many of us … and I share Frances's opinion, and I don't
remember whether this was brewing at that time, many of us felt that the
only way the Council could really be effective was to strengthen the
state groups and the groups at the local level. And in order to do that,
you know, resources had to be made available to do, you know, some kinds
of things. And they never bought that. And then,
What do you think the real reason was for not supporting the state Councils at that time? What kind of role do you see the Council as having played in the struggle for civil rights and that campaign?
Well, one good thing they did was get the VEP (voter education project) started.
That's right. [Laughter] [Laughter]
Well, I'm not interested in this going in any kind of record, because it's my personal opinion, but …
It won't.
… I think the Council is suffering from what I call an institutional lag,
you know. Institutions rarely … I think the examples of institutions
that continue to be sharp in the areas that they are organized … but
they don't disappear once they're institutionalized. They have to
survive for the sake of the institution. I don't … That may sound very
harsh, but I think the Council