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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0029-1, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Guion Griffis Johnson was among the first generation of female professional
historians and a pioneer of social history. Her book Ante-bellum
North Carolina provides a comprehensive study of how people maintained
and sometimes traversed social divisions in this state. In this interview, she
discusses the work she did for Dr. Howard Odum of the University of North
Carolina sociology department from 1923 until 1934. She lists the community
activities she participated in during and after this period. While her husband,
Guy Johnson, taught for the Institute for Research in Social Science, she
copyedited issues of the Social Forces journal, conducted
research on St. Helena's Island and antebellum North Carolina, and worked toward
a Ph.D. in sociology. When the workload became too cumbersome and tedious, she
transferred to the history department to finish her Ph.D. She lost her job with
the Institute in 1930 when the University cut costs by laying off married female
academics. The interview ends with her description of how she continued to work
without receiving wages before going back to Baylor College as a professor.
Guion Griffis Johnson was among the first generation of female professional historians and a pioneer of social history. In this interview, she discusses the work she did for Dr. Howard Odum of the University of North Carolina sociology department from 1923 until 1934. She also describes the research she did on St. Helena's Island and on antebellum North Carolina while working toward her Ph.D. She explains how she lost her job at the University of North Carolina in 1930 but continued to work until she and her husband transferred to Baylor College in 1934.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
. . . I missed the connection between Willie Lee Rose1 and how quickly you . . .
Vann Woodward directed her work and he was down here once giving a lecture, and he said to me following the lecture, "I've been wanting to write to you and tell you that your book on St. Helena has stimulated the research of one of my students. I put one of my students to work on it because I've been interested in it ever since the book was published. And she has had more time to spend on it than you did and has found a lot of material at Yale."
You had planned originally to go to Yale.
Yes, I had planned to explore every source. The director didn't even want me to go to Washington.
Why was this?
Well, this is the story about how the project was started, and it was
extremely interesting. And it [the project]
Now, who was this?
Well, you can look in the book and find out who it was. [Laughter]
And you succeeded.
So, we were working against a deadline. But when I wanted to go through
as much material as I could get my hands on in Washington, it took
almost a legislative act for me to be permitted to look in the Court of
Claims, in the Treasury Department, in the War Records . . . and they
were scattered all over Washington. And I was six, no, seven months
pregnant. And I would have to sign a statement to the effect that I
wouldn't use any of this material to bring suit against the United
States Government. But once I was admitted for use of the records, I
wasn't supervised. Finally, one of the nice men in the Treasury
Department felt so sorry for me, because It was hot. Oh, it was so hot.
It was in June
Well, he did come up and was head of . . .
Well, I went to him and I said, "This is ridiculous. I've had to do all
of this scurrying around and some of the materials they won't even let
me
I bet.
And he said, "Do you think they'll let us?" I said, "Certainly they'll let you. You'll have a lot of support from the Treasury Department." Well, he set the wheels rolling and in two years' time, he was in Washington, heading up the National Archives. I'm just so delighted that at least that came about, although he never, never once indicated where he got the idea.
I'm not surprised. [Laughter]
The St. Helena Island?
Yes.
I suppose that, let me see, we went in January and I began at once
collecting data and I collected data right on through until . . . and I
was pregnant then when I went . . . until I went through the last
copying of the old plantation records that I had found. (the afternoon before the baby was born)Ante-Bellum North Carolina. Then, I began
That's quite a feat.
Were other people working
We had Ndulamo which was a summer home that George Foster Peabody had given the two directors of Penn School.3 And the whole staff were there. Some of the men who just worked on brief essays, parts of the project, would come in for a short while. But Guy and I and a secretary, a girl (Jessie Alvenon) who had been my secretary when I was at Baylor College in Texas and brought up here with me, went with us as a secretary for the staff. She was there, and then the director and his wife. We were there from January until June. Then, we went back, well, it was more just for fun than anything else, about a year later, because my manuscript had already been written and the books were being published. We were the only ones who stayed down there during the research project. And from St. Helena, I went to Charleston and to Columbia, worked in the archives in Columbia and wrote to people. I would do a lot of interviewing and would get names of people who might have records. And I went out in the countryside looking for old plantation houses and seeing if there were any family records. Went into the attics of some of the houses, you know.
I'm sure that there are still records scattered all over.
Oh yes, I'm sure that there are records scattered all over.
I got one beautiful colored plantation book, the James Hamilton Couper
Plantation book from Birmingham, Ala. and two of the cash entry books,
two huge ledgers, just beautifully kept plantation records and I made
the mistake of showing the book to Dr. J. G. deR. Hamilton, and he was
so enthusiastic about it that he said, "Oh, would you let me take this
to the American Historical Association meeting. I just want to show it
to U.B. Phillips, he will be so thrilled to see it." And you know,
naive (I had just received my doctor's degree, you see)
In Life and Labor?
No, not in Life and Labor, the book after that. What is
the title? You know, I've got a blockage on the recall, because it made
me so mad. And he said, "Materials found by Dr. J. de R. Hamilton,". . .
let's see, something about. . . "materials obtained through the courtesy
of Dr. J. de R. Hamilton."
How could that be? Did you say anything to him?
I did. I said, "Dr. Hamilton!" And he said, "Oh, this was that stupid
Phillips. I don't know what in the world made him do this." Well, of
course, this was just. Life and Labor.
Amazing. And then, did he correct it in his next edition? Did he keep using the picture?
I don't know. I've never seen a second edition, so I don't know. I don't
know whether it even had a second edition. It was like [an incident related to]
What did she want you to call him?
General manager.
Oh, yes, not "overseer."
She said, "Only low-class white people were overseers."
Well, how did you get interested in writing about southern women?
This has been a concern of mine since I was a child. My mother was the
only woman in the county in which we lived, which was in Greenville,
Texas, who had a college degree. My mother was for women's rights long
before suffrage. So, I think that I got it with the mother's milk. I was
interested in the status
But so little has been done even now, and when you wrote this, very little had been done.
Well, I do think the chapters that I have in Ante-Bellum
North Carolina go into more detail than I could in this little
essay in The South in Continuity and Change.
Have you thought of any other women since I talked to you?
Yes, I have. I didn't make a list, I'm sorry to say, because I haven't had time. This is a very busy time of the year for me, before I go to sleep at night, I'll think. Now, Mabel Penny Hatch, from Raleigh, has been very active in politics from the time that she was a young girl. She's now retired. Her husband is a lawyer in Raleigh. I thought that I would get down to the Raleigh Telephone Directory and look through "Hatches" and pick her out.
Well, that can be done later.
But Mabel Penny Hatch would be very. . . and Eunice Ayers from Winston-Salem.
What has she. . .
She has been Clerk of the Court in Winston-Salem for a long time. She also is in politics, probably one of the most knowledgeable women in that area about the status of women in politics.
What about women scholars? It seems to me that an unusual number of women were writing about the South in the thirties. All of the excellent sociology and regional studies that were being done were. . .
Well, Miss Harriet Harring, Do you have her name?
Uh-huh.
Well, she should certainly be interviewed. Now, she lives at Snow
Hill,
Yes. How is her health?
She's all right now. She had some difficulty about a month ago, but she's now mobile. She was not for awhile. She was quite ill, in fact. However, I would certainly suggest that you see her when she feels like talking. A young man came by to interview Guy and me on the Institute for Research in Social Sciences. (Everybody is writing the history of the Institute for Research in Social Science.)
But it never gets written.
It never gets written, that's the truth. And I suggested that he talk to
her at once. He called her and she said, "I'm sorry, but I just do not
feel like seeing you." But that was when she was ill, but now she's
better and I think it would be quite wise of you to set up an interview
with her and let her tell you when she feels like talking. She is
knowledgeable, but she is also very discreet. She's not like me. I just
blurt out everything. And in Raleigh, Mrs. W.C. Pressley Harriet
Pressley is someone whom you would
Is that P-R-E-S-S-L-Y?
P-R-E-S-S-L-E-Y. Harriet Pressley. And let's see, you know this North Carolina Lives, don't you? People who were
writing in the thirties? Margaret Jarmon Hagood, for example, has
died.
Is that right?
Yes, and she would have been good. She went from here to the Census
Bureau. There is a Miss Whitley, let me see if I can find her address,
well, you can find her address in here, [ [together with a committee of prominent men and women.]North Carolina
Lives] I wouldn't want to take up your time to look for it Now,
Now, was she in the North Carolina Collection? Who is Ruth Current?
Unfortunately, she, too, has died. She was Home Demonstration Executive
in charge of all home demonstration work in the state, with offices at
State College. She was one of the movers and shakers in this state;
quite a dynamic person and really put - (Mrs. Estelle Smith actually organized the home demonstration
work)
Were you involved at all with the WPA Writer's Project?
I was busy finishing up Ante-Bellum North Carolina at
that time. No. Occasionally, people would come in and interview me and
see Guy, but we had nothing to do with it other than that, just
occasional I helping people. Now, Miss Wiley, Mary Calvin Wiley, has
died, unfortunately, in Winston-Salem. She would have been a great
source for you in the women's movement. But actually, there wasn't too
much work being done in the thirties and forties by women in the field
of sociology. Herring, Jocker, Hagood,
In what home?
Penick. P-E-N-I-C-K, which is the Episcopal Retirement home for worthy
Epsicopalians. [Laughter]
What about women who were involved in other New Deal agencies? I have several people who were involved with the Writer's Project in one way or another. Women were fairly well represented on that.
Yes, they were.
Those who were collecting interviews and working on the state guides. But I'm wondering about other. . .
Now, I'm a blank there. I was completely involved in Ante-Bellum North Carolina. I didn't know anything that went
on before 1860: I mean, after 1860!
I know the feeling. Well, these are helpful. I thought we might also talk about. . . Mary has started looking at your work, the things that you've written, but I thought that you might be able to give her some guidance about things that you have been involved in in addition to your writing that she would want to look into before interviewing you so that she would have some more knowledge about the context of your work.
I don't know whether any of those materials would be available or not. I was active in AAUW and got AAUW to do quite a number of things - take a stand against the Pearsall Act and the only organization that did take a public stand opposing the passage of the Pearsall Act during Luther Hodges Administration and. . .
The AAUW is looking for somebody to write a history of their organization.
Yes.
Have you heard about that? Have they found someone?
Not any person that's well qualified, that I know of. There have been various histories of AAUW written, but they've all been written by amateurs.
Well, why would those materials not be available?
Well, for one thing, Leontine Plank (Mrs. Carl A Plank of Asheville) who
was president of AAUW for four years, faithfully kept all the records
and all the records that were handed to her, she kept very carefully.
She had mountains of materials. And when she left office, Miss Mary
Graham Shotwell, from Oxford, who had retired (She was one of the first trained social workers in North
Carolina. Unfortunately, she too has died)
Oh, no. Leaving only the minutes. . .
Minutes, that's right. Now, the library at UNC-G became a depository for
those records. I don't know whether they are still there or not, ome of
the records are here in the North Carolina Room, I think. And all of the
Chapel Hill branch records are there. Well, let me see, AAUW, and the
Federation of Women's Clubs. I've been on the Board of the Federation of
Women's Clubs since 1948 and am still on the Board. I organized the
North Carolina Council of Women's Organization. That's about all(1) I'm
now a board member of the State Youth Advisory Board. I went on in 1970
and will serve through '76. That's one of my chief concerns now. You
see, when we were in Georgia from '44 to '47, I was executive secretary
of the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare and edited Georgia Welfare, and went all over Georgia helping to organize
community councils, setting up juvenile courts, getting volunteers for
juvenile courts and was immediately put on the board of the National
Public Relations Council for 1 For a more complete listing of
activities, see Who's Who of American Women, 1959,
1973; North Carolina Lives, 1962; The World Who's Who of Women, 1973.
Were you involved with the Southern Regional Council at all?
Not very much, I felt that I should stay away and let Guy run that. But I was offered the head of the history department at Agnes Scott. Guess how much they wanted to pay me? The president came to see me, visited me to tell me what an honor he was conferring upon me and that "he would be delighted to pay me $125 a month." As head of the history department and the honor of being the head of the history department. . .
Was to carry you the rest of the way.
And I would have had to commute. It would have taken me almost half a day to commute from where we lived on Wesley Road to DeKalb County, where Agnes Scott is located. And it was during the war, no gasoline, you know. So, I would have had to change and change by bus to get there. And he was so disgusted with me when I told him. At that time, I was the executive of the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare and was being paid much more than he offered me and he drew himself up with great dignity and said, "This is the most disgusting work that I have ever heard of a PhD. in history performing."
Well, he would turn over in his grave if he could see what a PhD. is
doing now. [Laughter]
I think that's about the broad jist of my — I've been on the national
AAUW Board [as a member of the Social and Economics Issue Committee]
What were you doing in Texas before you came to Chapel Hill?
I was born in Texas.
Well, I know that, but when did you leave there?
1924.
So, you had gone to college?
I finished at Burleson College, which was a little junior college in my
hometown of Greenville, Texas, then I went to
At Burleson College?
At Burleson College. He lived just eight miles from me, but I didn't know him. And then
Was he born in Texas?
Yes, he was born in Caddo Mills, Texas, and I was born in Wolfe City,
Texas. These were two little rural towns in the fertile, black-waxy belt
of Texas. Two little farm towns. And my parents moved to the county seat
of Greenville because of
And when did you get married?
In September, 1923. And we were there teaching for one year at Baylor College. And then we came up here.
Guy was offered a position at the Institute, or how did you.
Yes, Guy was offered. He had written two or three articles for Dr.
Odum's, Social Forces, Dr. Odum was just doing Social Forces. Dr. Odum liked Guy's work. He has a
very simple, forceful style. Mine's more ornate, you know, involved; but
his is straightforward. He writes very well, I think. And Dr. Odum was
very much impressed with his articles and then, when he got the money to
set up the Institute, he invited Guy to come to the Institute. We talked
it over, and I said, "I'm not going up there and live on $125 a month
when both of us are making excellent salaries here. We've been able to
pay off Social Forces. We arrived one hot day in August and had no
place to stay but at Dr. Odum's house. He very graciously said, "You
come right on. There's a place for you here while your house is being
built. You're going to have the upstairs in somebody's new house and
until that's built, you can live right here with us." And then he said,
"I have some work for you to do." We were so tired. We came up in our
Model T Ford and it had taken us forever on these horrible roads and we
were exhausted; but no, you had to get right to work the next day. Copy
reading for Social Forces. And he gave me galley proof
to read and I could see that the rest of my days were going to be spent
as his little slave, so I took care of that right away.
What did you do?
I told him that I had come up to get a doctor's degree, that I would like to have a doctor's degree in sociology, because that was Guy's field, but it didn't really matter to me what I took my degree in, because the only reason I wanted a PhD. was so that I could accredit my department of journalism at Baylor College. The head of the department had to have a PhD. It didn't matter what your PhD. was in.
So, you were going back?
Yes, we had leaves of absence. Yes, we were going back. We weren't going
to cut loose entirely from security. So, we liked it very much here
after awhile and I changed from
How many people did they have in the Sociology Department?
Not very many.
Was it very small?
Yes, it was. Dr. Jesse F. Steiner, who did pioneer work in community
organization, and Dr. Odum, and Harold Myer, whose field was largely
social problems and recreation. And that was just about it. So, Dr. Odum
had us take (I'm very grateful to him for that, since there weren't very many
courses being offered)
Well, was Guy working on his degree, too, or did he already have the PhD?
No, Guy had a Master's degree from the University of Chicago. Both
Well, what kind of work did you do for the Institute?
I did work on Ante-bellum North Carolina.
How did you get yourself in a position to do that?
I was nasty. I went in and confronted Dr. Odum and said, "I came up here;
I have a good job in Texas, to which I intend to return. I came up here
to get a PhD. I've taken all your courses in sociology. I have spent a
great deal of time doing copy work and doing promotional work for [of grants]Social Forces. I feel that I've done all that I can
for Social Forces. My competence beyond what I've done
is limited; therefore, I can't do anything else. I do not wish to do
copy reading. If I had wanted to do copy reading, I would have taken a
job on a newspaper. I've been offered excellent jobs on newspapers. I
loathe copy reading. I will do no more copy reading. If you want me to
spend full time on my research project, I will do that and I will work
twelve and fourteen hours a day at my research and I will get something
written for you so that you can have something to show, so that you can
have more foundation money." Which was what he was interested in and of
course, you have to show accomplishments in order to get renewals
Why did he think that history was a dead end?
"No one's interested in history anymore. History is the dead past. You've
got to cut lose from that past and go on, and history has been holding
us back" Well, of course, the history of the South with its
preoccupation with slavery and Reconstruction was holding the South
back. He was right there.Social Forces." So poor Catherine Jocher took over my
job. And she worked seven days a week, eighteen hours a day I'm sure for
years and years and years and years and years and finally in her last
years here she was made full professor. And she retired here at guess
how much: $7500 a year when men who were full professors were getting
$15000 a year. She probably won't tell you this.
Why was she willing to do that kind of work for so long?
Why was she willing to have no social life whatsoever. She went to
church. The church was important to her; she was very faithful to the
Lutheran Church. But her social life was zero. And she slaved away on
Social Forces and doing other chores too for Dr.
Odum.
Why did she do that? Was she doing her own research at the same time? Was she doing other research?
Well, she was doing some research. I think she had a book on, maybe with
Roy Brown, on the administration of Public Welfare. And I don't recall
what else that she has written. She
Did she have too little confidence in herself as a scholar to cut loose and try to do something on her own, or was she so devoted to Dr. Odum and the Institute, or
I think she was genuinely devoted to Dr. Odum. I do think that is true.
She did finally come to have a great deal of self-confidence. She was
elected to office in the American Sociological Association, Society,
ASS, [laughter]
And no one ever really encouraged her to do otherwise.
No, no one ever encouraged her to rebel. I would stop by her office and needle her briefly, but all I would do would hurt her feelings, so
How would she respond?
With a frozen stare and "you take care of your work and I'll take care of mine." I don't object, I mean, I think she was right. I was never offended.
So, when you went on in the history department, what did you do for money?
Oh, I stayed in the Institute. I became the first research. . .
By saying that he could no longer support you, he meant moral support?
Yes, it was moral support, not financial support.
Well, that's all right, you could do that.
I became the first/research assistant in history in the Institute, you
see. All of them were in the field of sociology. There was one in
library science, a Mr. Stone, when we first came. He was in the first
group that came, but all the rest of us were in the field of sociology.
So, I had already negotiated all this [with the history dept.]Social
Forces.
What had Catharine Jocker been doing before she came?
She had been in public welfare in Pennsylvania. She was from
Pennsylvania. She took her B.A. degree from Goucher. I don't know if she
had an M.A. from Goucher or not. But she be came extremely competent and
is held in high regard for her work on Social Forces
by sociologists all over the United States. When we go to the American
Sociological Association meetings, people are always asking us about
Catharine Jocker. She's held in very high regard.
Why don't you give us a kind of overview. . . you came in 1924, and the dates that you published you first book. Did you stay in the Institute then?
Yes, until the Depression came.
What was your position there?
A research associate, which was associate professor.
So, you were teaching?
No, no. A woman wasn't allowed to teach. Do you know that one of the
board members of the Institute, Dr. L.R. Wilson, who was the librarian,
said that no woman (I think that the matter came up as to - I'm quite sure that it
came up with the board-about what I was being paid. They were
talking about maybe paying Guy more and someone said, "Well, you
can't pay her husband more without also increasing her salary,
she'll raise hell.")
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
. . . When the Depression came, everyone was starving to death. There was
a movement to cut the salaries of everyone in the Institute. And there
were two of us that were married. Julia Spruill, Mrs. Corydon Spruill,
who did the colonial thing, was also working on her book and I was
completing the rest of [administrative] (Julia had a master's degree. She did not have her doctorate)Ante-Bellum North Carolina. And
so in 1934, the board met and said that all married women would be
dropped and the Institute salaries would be cut, since these were
largely foundation funds, only by 10%. Which was wonderful for the
Institute staff, whereas the faculty and James Sprunt
Historical Monographs in 19 — before I took my
doctorate — '25 or '26. Probably '26. And then I had an essay published
in Social Forces, published in '25, on the feminist
movement and I guess that was published first and then the Panama
Congress and Monroe Doctrine in the James Sprunt Historical
Monograph. Then, three or four of my essays were published in
the North Carolina Historical Review before 1930 and
then in 1930 it was the Sea Island book. '37 was Ante-Bellum North Carolina and '39, we went to work on the
Myrdal study and my. . .
So, between '34 and '39, you wrote and were not working?
I was working, going to my office everyday, finishing Ante-Bellum North Carolina without being paid a cent. No. This
is true.
So, they did let you keep your office?
I had given my husband an office at Baylor College, permitted him to move
into my office. I had two offices. I was public relations director for
the college and head of the department of journalism. He had no office,
so I said, "You just come right in and here's your desk." So, when Julia
and I were hustled out of the Institute because we were married women
and our husbands were making quite enough to maintain us and our
salaries were needed to help men make a living for their families, I
continued to occupy the same desk that I had always used. Guy and I had
always, from the time we first came here, shared an office. So, I just
continued to go back to my desk and my files were still there and I
finished. You see, I had to stop the work on Ante-Bellum
North Carolina to do the St. Helena work. And I hadn't written
anything else.
So, I did all these other chapters Ante-bellum North Carolina]
Were you involved in other things besides your scholarship?
No, I did not begin to have any — I was so involved in all sorts of
community work from the time I was six years old, because my mother was
so active; and when I was at Baylor College and then as a faculty member
at Baylor College — that I was exhausted with volunteer work. But when
Ante-Bellum North Carolina was published, I wanted
to do something else, entirely different. I didn't want to do any more
research and, by that time, I had a child in the second grade and the
presidency of the PTA was offered me, and I decided that was what I was
going to do. We were at Yale at the time and I was elected before I knew
it and when I came back, one of my competitors said, "I think it was
outrageous they elected you president of the PTA without letting you
know, and, of course, you're not going to do it." Well, I hadn't really
made up my mind and Guy didn't want me to do it, but that made up my mind. I said, "Of course I am." So, I was
president of the PTA. Then during the war before we went to Atlanta, I
was active. I issued all the ration books, well, all except the first
ration book on gasoline. I did not issue that, but I issued all the
others. I was very active with OCD and OPA and went all over the county,
fussing around and collecting historical records for Orange County, and
all that
While you were issuing ration books. . .
Yes, that's right. Setting up and training volunteers and writing news
releases to sooth the public and inform them about new regulations. And
then the V-12 program was set up here and the history department asked
me if I wouldn't come and teach modern American history courses to the
V-12, which I did. Then, the Navy staff was called to active duty in the
Pacific and the history department was left with teaching naval history
and strategy and none of the men wanted to teach naval history and
strategy, so Dr. Newsome-well, we didn't know any naval history and
strategy. It was just work. And Dr. Newsome said, "You're it." So, I
taught naval history and strategy. And really enjoyed it. I had a bigproud of myself. Some of the boys
came by to see me and said, "Well, teacher.. ." They would come by
Atlanta to see me before they went into active duty. I very much enjoyed
teaching in the V-12, but it was very hard work. Because I had to stay
just two jumps ahead. I had boys who had been in the North African
campaign. Once I was explaining the strategy of the North African
campaign and here were these two seamen on the front row and I thought,
"Oh, no! They are going to correct me and tell me I'm all wrong. That's
not the way it was." But at the end of the lecture - and there were two
or three of them on the front row with their mouths open - they said,
"My God! Was that what we were doing?" I said, "You didn't know?"
They don't tell you when you're doing it.
No, of course not. No one except the higher ups knows anything about strategy. So, with that, I realized I was perfectly safe. Let's see, that's about -
Then, you went to Atlanta?
Went to Atlanta, yes, and immediately [after a few months]had it in organizing the Department of
Journalism and I organized the Texas High School Press Association in
1923. (And last year we went to Texas for the 50th anniversary and they
gave me a big Trailblazer Award, a medal.
Do you know Josephine Wilkins?
Yes, I do. I saw her in November. I know her quite well.
I guess that actually the Georgia Fact Finding Committee. . . was that still going on when you. . . no, that was before.
Yes, that was before. If you're doing southern women you ought to. . .
I have interviewed her.
You have interviewed Josephine? Good.
But I want to interview her again, I. . .
Yes. I'm sorry that Lillian Smith has died. She was quite a. . .
I interviewed Paula Snelling.
Yes, that was exciting.
Well, this is a lot of good material to work with. Mary is from Atlanta.
Oh, you're from Atlanta?
Are there papers for the Conference of Social Welfare?
In Georgia. I left all my files in the office of the Conference. I don't
know what has happened to them. The building has come down. They kept
saying to us, "Well, we can't take care of anything that you want done
because we are going to tear the building down." Now, this was in 1945
and '6 and '7; and now it's down. And the Conference has moved, and I
have been back to Atlanta many, many (it was $11 million when we were working on it and when it was
finally built, it was umpteen million, wasn't it?)
What made them think that the director of the planning council?
He was! He was! And these men put a detective to work to determine if he was or not. So, they asked me to be one member of the committee and Grace Hamilton — you know who Grace Hamilton is, don't you? She's the white-black woman who is now in the Georgia legislature and has been for five or six years. She went in with that first group of blacks elected to the legislature. Now, Grace Hamilton is someone to interview, if you haven't already.
I haven't, and I have looked at her papers at the University and she's a definite. . .
Yes, well, Grace Hamilton and I — I've forgotten, There were about five of us who were on the committee to sort of find some way to ease the Communist director out and not make a great stir. But, thank goodness, we came back to Chapel Hill, so I was not involved in that furor.
Do you have your personal papers, or have you given them to the Southern Historical Collection?
I have given only — I gave a batch of completed questionaires that I did
when I was on the Commission for the Status of Women here in North
Carolina. IVolunteers in Community
Service. So, that's all they have. I have the rest. Attic,
basement, under the bed — I have a big fourposter bed in one of our
guest rooms and the papers were all in the study. We had guests coming
and they the papers were all in the study and I said, "What in the
world. . . " Guy's study is over here and mine is over there, and I
said, "They just cannot come in this house and see all these boxes in my
study." And Guy said, "Put them under the bed." I said, "Well, I've been
fighting shoes under the bed ever since we've been married." But I
finally said, "Well, that's a bright idea."
Well, I really didn't even mean to stay this long. It's suppertime.
Oh, is it? I'm sorry that you couldn't stop me.
On no, I would love to stay longer. I just didn't mean to stay, when I called you I said that it would be short.
And I didn't offer you any more tea and there's the tea over there waiting. And I didn't even finish mine. It finally got too cold; too much milk in it.
Well, thank you so much.
Well, it's been a lot of fun.
END OF INTERVIEW
Rehearsal for
Reconstruction.
The South in Continuity and Change. Durham, Duke
University Press, 1965.