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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
G-0029-3, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill”
Guion Griffis Johnson was a preeminent sociologist, educated at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill during the 1920s. In this interview (the third in a four-part series), Johnson focuses primarily on her education, her work with the Institute for Research in Social Sciences (IRSS) during the 1920s and 1930s, her participation in the Carnegie-Myrdal Study of the Negro in America, and the challenges of being a woman academic during that era. Johnson begins with a brief discussion of her formative years in Greenville, Texas, focusing on how her father had provided a model of racial tolerance and that she grew up believing women should have the same opportunities as men. In 1924, Johnson began her doctoral degree, alongside her husband, Guy B. Johnson, at UNC. Both worked for the newly formed IRSS, spearheaded by Howard Odum, and aligned themselves with those on campus who shared their progressive views on race relations. In describing her work with the IRSS, Johnson focuses on some of the opposition the Institute faced from various sectors of the academic community. During the 1930s, Johnson and her husband became well-versed in the history of race relations in the South and the sociology of race. As a result, they both joined the Carnegie-Myrdal Study for the Study of the Negro in America in 1939. Johnson describes the research and writing they did for the study, as well as her interactions with Gunnar Myrdal and other members of the study. In addition to discussing her work in southern race relations, Johnson speaks at length throughout the interview about the challenges she faced as a female academic. She offers several anecdotes regarding her efforts to challenge salary disparities and describes her experiences as one of the few women graduate students at UNC and as a professor. Finally, Johnson discusses what it was like to be half of a so-called "husband and wife team" in academia. Throughout the interview, Johnson touches on the challenges and experiences of academics with progressive views of both race and gender from the 1920s into the early 1940s.
Renowned southern sociologist Guion Griffis Johnson discusses her education, her work with the Institute for Research in Social Sciences, her participation in the Carnegie-Myrdal Study of the Negro in America, and the challenges of being a woman academic during the 1920s and 1930s. Throughout the interview, she emphasizes the challenges and experiences of academics with progressive views of race and gender during that era.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Well, this past week when I went to the Institute in Raleigh for the Archives thing, I met a friend of yours, I believe . . .
Mattie . . .
Parker . . .
Oh yes Parker is her married name. I knew her as Mattie Edwards.
She gave a speech at one of the sessions on her colonial records work.
Oh yes, yes.
And then there was a party afterwards, and I ended up sitting next to her and talked to her a little bit and told her about the project. And she said, "Well, I'm basically against women's studies, black studies." Then I explained a little bit more about it and about Jackie's interests being a little bit broader than women's studies per se . . .
Yes, than just women . . .
. . . and she kind of came round and thought it might be an interesting thing to pursue. But she has had an interesting career.
Yes, she has.
The scholarship and the work that she has done is really first-rate.
Yes it is. Yes, she's excellent. I've been very
fond of her. I knew her sister, too, quite well, and let her sister live
with us for awhile, because she was Mattie Frma's sister. We
had this room downstairs as a guest room. We let her have the guest room
for, oh, about half a year and enjoyed her very
Now, was her sister also in academic work?
She was a public school teacher, and she was coming to upgrade her certificate.
Oh, I see, so she was working at the University.
Yes, she was teaching here in the public school system, and taking some courses, too. But she was teaching in the elementary school.
Well, she was talking about trying to get her graduate work done right in the throes of the Depression . . .
That's true.
How hard it was, how money was cut off, and worked a year at Radcliffe and then had to come home.
That's right. She is related to the Houses. You know, Bob House was the Chancellor of the University for a great many years and it was actually through the Houses that I met Mattie Frma.
Well, she has some interesting stories about working at Meredith and about working around the state and was, I think, really in her prime in her work with the Archives and the project that she did there. It was interesting to meet her. She suggested that it would be interesting to do a project studying . . . and Jackie said that a project like this had been done . . . taking her class in say, 1925 from Greensboro and then take succeeding classes in '35, '45, '55 and on.
Yes, I think there have been a number of studies like this. Radcliffe has done one. They followed up on Mimi, our older son's wife, who is a graduate of Radcliffe; took her doctorate there. And Mimi was a part of a study done by Radcliffe. And I think that Vassar has done the same thing, perhaps Smith. It has been done especially in women's colleges.
And in the Northeast.
Yes, in the Northeast rather than . . .
I can't think of one that has been done in the South, but . . .
No, I can't either.
But it would be interesting to compare the South with the Northeast.
Yes, yes. Randolph Macon may have done something like this. Gladys Coates would know, Mrs. Albert Coates.
Yes, I'll have to check on that, I'm not sure. I'm not sure which ones Jackie had in mind, she just said that some had been done. But another thing, they mentioned . . . you had talked about Gertrude Weil last time, and they said, when they were introducing the different collections that they have . . .
They have hers?
They have hers. In fact, they named it as one of the most complete and one of the most exciting that they have.
Miss Weil would do that, would keep everything.
Well, apparently, her mother made them write home once a week when they were in college and her mother was the real saver and . . .
. . . kept all the . . .
. . . everything. Then, she lived at home for quite awhile, and her mother, I guess kept a lot of her things. So, they said that it is just a really exciting collection.
I'm sure that it is.
A very complete collection of what was going on and they said that she was so tremendously active.
That's very true. I'm so delighted to know that her papers have been kept.
It was really amazing in the way that they presented it. You know, it
We suggested when she came here to interview us that she look through Miss Gertrude's papers, and she said that she had. She said, "I have, but I haven't found anything, "so, evidently, the letters were in the attic or the basement and must not have been disturbed.
They must not have been, because they said that she had been there quite a bit.
Good. Yes, she found . . .
She must have found a real gold mine. Well, one thing, when I was going back over the transcript from . . . it wasn't last week, I didn't mean to say that . . . I mean from last time, we talked about the idea that you had suggested that Southern women should know and understand about the movement of the Negro and what the Negro wanted, because they had comparable status over a period of time in this country.
Yes.
I was wondering . . . that wasn't at all a widespread idea, as you said, with the horror that your speech was met . . .
Yes.
Or the reception that your suggestion met with at that meeting. But I was wondering why you and Guy came out with these ideas at the time that you did. We talked a little bit about your background as far as women were concerned, your mother's ideas about education, but what about the idea of . . .
Regarding the Negro, and the status of the Negro?
Yes.
I think that I gained respect for the status of the Negro and the
Negro
You mentioned that your grandfather had moved to Texas to get away from the horrors of Reconstruction and . . .
Yes, yes. And there came with him a Negro couple, and he built a house for them in his back yard, and I knew them as Old Aunt Anne and Old Uncle Tom and loved them dearly. And then, there were only a few Negro families in Wolfe City where I was born, but they were somehow related to our family through employment or just through general affection. And across the street from us lived my father's father, who was, who fought for the North. So, he had a very high respect for the Negro and would speak of him as a "lamp-black white man." And my father had the same . . .
Where were they from?
From Ohio. My father was born in Ohio.
I see. And then his father had fought in the Civil War on . . .
Yes, in the Civil War on the Northern side.
. . . as a Yankee.
As Yankee, yes.
How did he ever come to Texas?
It was a rather sad family situation. His mother had died and his father had remarried a rather wealthy woman with two or three children of her own. Now, my father was the fifth or sixth in a family, no, he was probably the fourth in a family of six. And the only son. The children were very upset about . . . this was my father's grandfather, remarrying and in his will, he left all of his property to his second wife. And my ancestors set up the first tannery for the manufacture of shoes in Ohio. You know, at one time, Ohio was the center of shoe manfucturing, and still is to a certain extent. So, . . .
They had done quite well.
Yes, and after this, my grand father felt that he was destitute, since he would inherit none of his father's property, and he was very bitter toward his father and his stepmother and came to Texas. So, it was the result of a family situation that brought him from Ohio to Texas.
To get away and start over, and all that.
Yes.
Then, how was he employed in Texas?
I simply do not know, I don't know what he did.
But he and your father weren't in business together?
No, no. Because to me, he seemed to be very old, much older than my mother's father. He might not have been. I remember him as a very tall, handsome man. An unusually handsome man. But he didn't seem to need to work. He had his pension as a Yankee soldier, and some other additional income. And I remember him simply sitting on the front porch rocking.
What was your father's occupation?
My father owned a hardware store in Wolfe City.
And then you said that they moved to Greenville?
Yes, this was so, and he had a much larger hardware store in Greenville.
And he felt that we needed to get a better education than in the little
town of Wolfe City, which had about twelve hundred inhabitants. But it
was a very happy little community. Everyone knew everyone else, and was
highly respected. My father was on the schoolboard and in the little
local town council, and my grandfather of course, was very prominent . .
. that is, my grandfather Stephens. I think that I told you that he had
the desire to educate every rural boy and girl in the county who wanted
an education and could not afford to get one. And he did send many boys
and girls away to Burleson College, or Wesley College, two little junior
colleges
Baylor is Baptist, isn't it?
Yes, Baylor is Baptist.
And very strict, wasn't it?
It has been for a long time, I don't think that it is now. You will be interested to know that Mr. Jaworski and Guy were in the same class, the same graduating class at Baylor. So, Baylor has turned out a great many scholars and leaders. Wright Patman is another product of Baylor University.
That's very interesting.
But Baylor was very conservative, fundamentalist for a long time. And this turned Guy off from being a minister. He thought at one time that he would be a minister and when he went to Baylor, he was so turned off by the rigid fundamentalism in the department of religion, that he immediately moved into sociology and gave up all thought [of being a preacher].
I remember seeing the tremendous Bible building . . . I was on the campus once, and there is some kind of Bible Society building or something that is a most formidible structure on the campus.
Yes.
Also, they were very strict. I stayed in the dorm there just for a weekend..
Did you?
And they were very strict about wearing slacks outside of the dormitory, and . . .
Were they?
This was in late '68 or '69.
Really! Still very strict?
They were strict in comparison to what other places were requiring at that time.
I went to Baylor College, which was forty miles away . . .
That was the women's college.
That was the women's college, yes. And I returned in '73, no, '71, I'm forgetting my dates . . . '73 for the Texas High School Press Association celebration and my own graduation [71], and there were girls in slacks all over the campus.
Well, I would guess that this was right before it broke down. Because there were, that was late for such things, but they were very strict about their rules.
What about the prevailing attitude when you were at Burleson and then again later when you were at Baylor, as far as . . . there were no Negroes in the colleges?
Oh no, no. I'd like to illustrate one point about how keenly
my father felt about giving the Negro an opportunity to participate as a
full citizen in the community. He had a very competent Negro janitor in
his hardware store in Greenville. And the janitor had two almost white
children, although his wife was also what I call a "white
Negro." And I think that both of the children had blue eyes,
very fair skin and blondish, frizzy hair. And there was no way that they
could get any instruction in music which he wanted very much for his
children. He talked to my father about it and my father said,
"If you would like to send your children to my house, I have
one daughter who is taking violin and she will give one or both
daughters violin lessons, and then I have another daughter who is taking
lessons in speech. I think that it is very important for a good citizen
to stand on his own feet and know how to express himself. So, if you
would like for them to take speech and violin, I'll be
delighted to speak to my daughters and see if they would teach them and
I'm sure they will be very happy." He spoke to us,
my sister was the violinist and I was the speech major and we were
charmed to
So, it was definitely your father, rather than your mother.
Yes, although my mother's father, who had been a soldier in the Confederate Army, was also very liberal.
And he was the one who had left Mississippi?
Yes, he was the one who left Mississippi.
Well, was there any feeling in a town that small, as far as your father's ideas and your grandfather's, was there any . . .
If that's true, I was not aware of it. I was not aware of it in Greenville, either. Because the children came very frankly in the front door, and there was no attempt to close the windows so that the neighbors would not know that we were giving these children lessons in violin and speech.
But no other music teachers in town would open their doors . . .
That's true. They wouldn't accept them as pupils.
What about the school situation at that time?
They were segregated, a small, very small school.
But predominately public . . .
Oh, yes, public schools. Yes. The children were very grammatical.
Unmistakably they were upper class. The father and mother were well
trained and
Which was a step up.
And unheard of. I'm sure that his store was the only one in town that had a Negro clerk. But I was not aware of animus against us because of our attitude.
I want to talk about that later, but you certainly did feel such pressure later when you and Guy were so active.
But only in North Carolina. And Georgia. Not in Texas. When we would go back to visit our relatives, we would hear some repercussions, especially after 1954 and the Court decision. And my mother's cousin-in-law, who was a doctor and who owned one of the two hospitals in Greenville, was very reactionary.
And was upset? By repercussions, you mean that they would approach you and tell you . . .
Oh yes, and I remember once that the cousin whom we called Cousin Van
came to call when Guy and I had come for a visit, and she began
denouncing the Supreme Court decision and speaking in vitriolic terms
about the Negro. I knew better than to say anything, just to sit back
and listen, but Guy could not tolerate her opinion, and said something
in a quiet way, something very mild like, "I'm
sorry, I can't agree with you. I think you're
wrong." And got up and left the room, whereupon my father
followed him and said as he was leaving, "I like that boy Guy."
Keeping peace in the family.
She scolded my father and Guy later, saying, "Now you know Van, you know how reactionary she is. She was a guest in our house and you did not have to insult her."
The thing that amazes me, though, is that guests can often come in and attack you and you . . .
You are supposed to . . .
I'm amazed at what people will tell you.
This is true, that "women must be economically independent and must train themselves so that they will be competent to hold down important jobs and get good salaries. And that the Negro is a human being equal in capacity to the white man. He has been held in subjegation and has not been given the opportunity to develop his skills. Given the opportunity to develop his skills, he will show that he is comparable to the white man in native ability and ability to achieve."
While you were still at home, what about disenfranchisement, what about voting? Do you remember?
Of course, they could not vote, and you remember I told you last week that there was a small community about twenty miles from Greenville, where Negroes were not allowed to live.
Josephine, Texas, I think you said.
That's right, Josephine, Texas. So, that I was aware of discrimination, but it didn't touch me, because of my father's attitude, my grandfather's liberal attitude and because there were very few Negroes in Hunt County, where we lived.
But as far as your father . . . there really wasn't a platform for him to speak on as votes, it was pretty much by that time, very, very firm.
Solidified in the structure of the state.
Well then, when you left and went to Burleson and went to Baylor . . .
Well, you see, Burleson was in Greenville, so that I stayed at home.
You were at home then?
Yes.
So then, when you went to Baylor, what was the feeling there?
One never thought about the Negro. The Negro was never mentioned.
That's very interesting. I talked to Dr. Bell Wiley about studying under Philips, and I said, "Didn't it come out about this equality business?" "No, it didn't come up." No one talked about it.
No, no. Whereas in my classes here, especially in Dr.
Hamilton's class . . . Hamilton Hall
Why had he attended?
Yes, I don't recall the specifics. It seems to me that there was a panel discussion on the changing South, and that Dr. Odum was chairman of the panel and that Charles Johnson was one of the panel members. This is the way I recall it. It may have been quite different, but this is the way that I recall it.
It's surprising that he would attend, knowing . . .
Yes, knowing that a black man was to be one of the panelists.
Well, when you got up here, was it very different from what you had experienced . . .
Yes.
You were kind of deposited in the middle of . . .
I wrote a number of letters about the tremendous differences that I found here, and I was very unhappy here, because I found that I had been in a very free situation at Baylor College for women, where the entire faculty stressed the importance of education of women, and the importance of women training themselves not only in the home (We had an excellent home economics course, which my parents required me to take, and I loathed it, I felt that I already knew all I needed to know about cooking and sewing and taking care of the house and budgeting the family money) but not only home economics, but in every phase of work open to women.
Well, certainly your work in journalism was very new when you were going into it and . . .
Yes. So that I had an excellent—I felt that I was completely free and I was getting one of the top salaries, even though I was only 21 or 22. I was getting one of the top salaries on campus. And I felt that the sky was the limit.
Well, how old was the Baylor College for Women?
1845. Founded in 1845.
Why was it so different? Or was the attitude at Greensboro much the same? That it was a women's college . . .
I think that because it was a woman's college, and then the president of the woman's college, a native of Mississippi, Dr. John Hardy, had two daughters of his own, and he was very much in favor of the education of women and the development of the capacities of women and the citizenship roles that women should play. He had daily chapel, and we were required to attend and we were given assigned seats and there was monitoring. I resented going to chapel, but I have since realized the importance of his extemporaneous speeches on the abilities of women to achieve.
He spoke on this?
Everyday, practically everyday.
Well, comparing what Mrs. Parker said this past weekend about Greensboro College for Women, she said that the prevailing attitude when she was there was that "we are getting a good education and it is our duty to use it." The goal was not to marry and settle down. It was to use your education.
That's right. You know the old slogan that Dr. McIver, the president of Women's College adopted . . . "Educate a man and you educate a citizen; educate woman and you educate a family. And the world." That's not the exact quotation, but it's close. So, this was his concept and I think that he, too, arose in chapel every morning and . . . I know that they had required chapel at WC as well as at Baylor College. And I'm sure that he indoctrinated the women.
Well, it's interesting that these particular men felt the way that they did, and then that at the same time, you ran up against some pretty hardy characters that felt the other way, when you came to UNC.
Yes, this is true.
It would be interesting to know, or to see, what their backgrounds were
that
I think that perhaps one of the reasons was that the presidents of women's colleges felt that they did not have as prestigious positions as the president of a co-educational school, or a school for men and that they were somehow trying to justify their holding their positions, and that their concept of the education of women, and the importance of women, was more or less thrust upon them as an ego device.
They had vested interests in their graduates holding good positions.
That's right. This is the way I have decided that these men obtained their great interest in the education of women. It was, as you say, an ego investment. They must show to the president of the University at Chapel Hill that the Woman's College was just as important as the University of North Carolina and that their jobs were just as prestigious as Edward Kitter Graham is or Aldeman's job or Veneble's job.
And then too, I guess that they were fighting for funds.
Oh yes. The competition was intense and Dr. McIver wanted to develop a clientele that would go to the legislature and help him fight for funds. And Gertrude Weil was one that was constantly fighting for funds for WC.
Which is now co-educational.
Yes.
When you came to Chapel Hill and you started writing these letters home about being unhappy, what was the situation that . . .
That I objected to? The resentment of the student body objected to the presence of women on campus, and the faculty did so too. There were less than a hundred women.
Were they mainly in nursing?
No, there were no nursing courses at that time, here. Most of them
Now you said, I think in the first session that we had, that women weren't teaching . . .
Oh, no . . . no . . .
You didn't teach then except for military courses?
No, no . . . I didn't teach until World War II. 1943.
And then you were needed because . . .
Teachers were desperately needed. And I was recruited at the end of the
first semester. Dr. Newsome, who was at that time head of the history
department . . . And I had been one of his students and had taken all
the courses that he offered because I considered him to be one of the
best teachers in the history department. Dr. Newsome called me in and
said "Now we would like for you to teach full time." I
had just taught one course . . . two courses . . . the previous
semester. "We would like for you to teach full time and I
wonder if you can arrange to do so. I have not heard one word of
objection about you."
That was such a positive statement.
"Not one word of objection about you." I will
do the whistling." And they cheered. I enjoyed the work, and I
think the men did too.
So you taught that whole year.
Yes.
Full time the second semester.
Yes. When Dr. Newsome telephoned me and asked me if I would come in to
the teaching program, I said "It will depend upon the
situation. I'd like to know what rank and salary I will
have." He hummed and hawed and said "Well,
I'll have to work that out." I said "Well,
when you do work it out, please call me again and I'll give
you my answer." When he called again he said "Now what
was your rank when you left the Institute as a research
person." I said that I was an associate professor and he said
"Well, we've arranged for you to come in to our
program as an associate professor. And the salary will be the same as an
associate professor." And I said that under those circumstances
I would be glad to accept. A number of years later in the little
bulletin that the department of history publishes annually I was
— its about the graduate students and their publications and
the alumni — I was listed as Guion Griffis Johnson gave one
of the addresses at the meeting of the Mississippi Valley Historical
Association in Pittsburgh. She was formerly a lecturer
in history, in the department of history in the V12 program.
Now who was responsible for that?
The head of the history department. In the meantime Dr. Newsome had died,
and one of the men who had taken his doctorate the same year that I took
mine and whose dissertation did not win the award whereas mine had and
who had always been very competitive toward me downgraded my status from
associate professor to lecturer. I mentioned this only to indicate the
rigid attitude which has been maintained in most of the departments of
the University until within the last few years. Just recently . . . I
remember that Anne Scott asked Julia Spruill when
When was this?
I think it was probably in . . . soon after Anne came . . . in the 60s. You know Ann could not get a teaching position here and had to go to Duke in order to find a job. But fortunately Duke was more liberal.
The attitude at Duke was somewhat different, wasn't it?
Yes. Although their salaries were very low . . .
The salaries of women or the salaries of all professors.
A few highly selected professors received extraordinarily high incomes.
But the rank and file, even on the professorial level received poverty
level salaries. When we came from Atlanta back to the University, I
think I told you about going to Bob House about the history department.
Before we returned I was in New York for a meeting of the National
Public Relations Council of which I was Chairman of the Board and had
gone over to talk to Don Young who was a friend of ours and head of the
Russell Sage Foundation. And Don was saying "What are you going
to do when you get back to Chapel Hill?" And I said
"You tell me!" He said "If I were you,
I'd never put my foot in Chapel Hill again. Why
don't you go—there's a job opening at
Duke. And I'm going to telephone them right now, with your
permission, and say that you're on your way back to Atlanta
and I want you to stop off and have an interview for this job in the
department of sociology at Duke." I said
"Fine!" He called Dr. Jemen and Dr. Jemen said
"Oh, I would be so glad for Dr. Johnson to come. Yes,
we'd like very much to have her on the faculty. Ask her to
come by and see me on the way back to Atlanta." So I stopped in
Durham and had a very pleasant interview with Dr. Jenner . . . Jenson .
. . who was a very gentle person and quite involved in at least social
welfare matters in the state and he asked me to list what I had been
doing. When I told him I was president of the directors of social
welfare conferences in the country and chairman
That horrible figure comes back again.
$125 a month. I said "I just do not think . . . It would cost me transportation. And to get a good housekeeper whom I would want to have while I do my work over here. I do not think that it would justify my coming. So I'm sorry. I'm not interested."
But he presented it in such a way that you were . . . he agreed.
Yes. Now at the time they were looking for a dean of women to replace Dr.
Alice Baldwin. And he said "I think you'd be
excellent for that position. I'm going to take you over for
an interview with Dean Baldwin." We did go over for an
interview and it was — short dresses were just coming in.
They had been down almost to the ankles, and I had on a fashionable
short dress. And when I sat down my dress went up over my knees. And
Dean Baldwin said "Oh, my dear." And that was the end
of that.
Amazing. This was in 43?
No, 47.
After the war!
Yes, 1947.
Softened a bit . . .
Yes. Well, I think that perhaps the expression on my face when she showed
shock because my dress, my skirt had gone up over my knees . . . well,
that perhaps she was just a little old-fashioned. But certainly I was
not acceptable as dean
Had she retired by that point? When you . . .
No, she actually did not . . . she retired as dean of women but continued to teach in history. I think that she died just a few years after her retirement. She did not live long after her retirement.
When you came, you talked a little bit last week about the feeling when you talked to Conner and you talked to Chancellor House about a position and they said go out and make friends with women. When did all this start, this attitude toward Guy. Was it when you first came or after you'd been here for a while or was it just association with Howard Odum in the sociology department?
From the beginning, when Guy . . . Guy had written some articles for Social Forces on the Ku Klux Klan. I think that a few
people in the state became fearful of him at an early date.
This was right after he came?
Yes, right after we came. And before he received his doctorate, he had
collaborated with Dr. Odum on two books on Negro songs and his
dissertation was the musical talent of the Negro. All this got whispered
around on the board of trustees and in a small circle of Negro haters on
the board of trustees. Quite soon he was someone to be watched. At one
time he brought a Negro poet to the campus. And a rather unfortunate
situation arose. He [the poet] wrote for Contempo
which was a Communist sponsored newspaper which was being published in
Chapel Hill. The poet wrote a poem about Christ and the poem indicated
that Christ was black. The word spread very quickly about this black
Communist being brought by a member of the sociology department to speak
to the students. Guy had raised the money, had written a letter to
faculty members saying that he had an opportunity to bring Langston
Hughes to the campus and that he would like to pay him a small
honorarium. He got a ready response and was able to pay him a decent
honorarium. The word went out, because of this affiliation with Contempo, the Communist newspaper, and telegrams
flooded and there was a great demand that Guy be fired from the
campus.
One was as bad as the other.
Oh, yes. Of course Dr. Odum was always highly criticized because of his tolerance of the Negro and his favorable comments on the Negro and because he brought Negroes to the campus to speak. He was always suspect.
How long had he been here when you came?
We came in the fall of 1924. I think he came in 1921 or 22. He had not been here long.
And the Institute? He was just getting . . .
Just getting it in 1924. He had received funds.
So the Institute had just started.
Yes, we were the first members chosen. Guy and I and Katherine Jocher and one or two others.
So he had been brought as head of the sociology department?
Yes, by Dr. Harry W. Chase, who was then president of the University. He and Dr. Chase had received their doctor's degrees together at Clark University. So Dr. Chase was familiar, was a long standing friend of Dr. Odum's.
And Dr. Chase continued to be very supportive . . .
Oh yes. Dr. Chase was very supportive of Dr. Odum.
How long was he president?
He left for the presidency of New York University in the late 20s and Frank Graham was chosen as president of the university.
From what you said, he maintained this . . .
Oh, yes. Frank Graham was a liberal. He had finished the University here
and had gone to the London School of Economics and his indoctrination
into
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
You said that Howard Odum was so very good at collecting money for projects that he wanted to do. Where was his support coming from?
Yes, he was. Largely from the foundations in the North. From Rockefeller Foundation, Carnegie Corporation. I do not know whether he had any Ford Foundation support or not. But the Rosenwald Fund also. Rosenwald was located in Chicago. Rosenwald helped him support the Institute.
Was Guy involved at all or were you involved in . . .
Fund raising? Only in that we were the ones usually assigned to go meet
visiting dignitaries in Raleigh or in Durham and bring them over. Dr.
Odum told us before we came up from Texas that we would need a car.
What was the feeling of other people on the faculty outside of the sociology department, about what was going on in the institute . . . Did it change over a long period of time?
Yes, it took a long time for the attitude of other departments to become
more liberal in their thinking and more appreciative of the pioneer work
which Dr. Odum was doing in the Institute. I remember going, in the 30s,
to a little party at the home of an education professor1 and having the professor come in—it
was a bridge party—and having the professor come in and say
"Well, how's my socialist friend getting
along?" I ignored it. He was not addressing me. Then he came
over and put his . . . patted me on the back and said
"How's my socialist?" And I said
And he was a professor here?
He was a professor.2 He had later received his doctorate the same year that Guy and I had, and had been retained on the staff just as we had been.
What department was he in?
In French.
So it was in a lot of different departments.
Yes it was not only . . . and I think I mentioned when Jackie was here
the difficult time that the school of business administration gave Dr.
Odum. Dr. D. D. Carroll was perhaps one of his bitterest enemies. He
felt that sociology was going to antagonize the business industry of the
state and that the legislature, therefore, would not give the
appropriations to the university, that the university needed, and that
the department of sociology was really a detriment and
Was he here over a long period of time?
Yes, he was here over a long period of time and he was highly respected in the state. He was a Quaker, a very kind and generous man in every other area and I think he was genuinely afraid, for the reasons that I have stated. Nevertheless, Dr. Odum had put him on the board of the Institute from the beginning. Dean Carroll; he had only an AB degree. From the beginning Dr. Odum wanted a board for the Institute for Research in Social Science, and he wanted all the social sciences included and to have a part in the administration of the Institute. But actually, he got very little support from the other departments except in psychology.. Fred Dashiell head of the psychology department, was very cooperative. And in education, the education department was also cooperative. But the other departments were not did battle with him.
You said you [and Guy] were the first person from the history department . . . Did you remain the historian?
Yes, I did. Until, well, in the second year two other graduate students in history came on, two men. Fletcher Green and W. S. Jenkins. And the three of us received our doctorates at the same time.
So they were doing essentially the same thing you were doing.
They were doing . . . actually, Bill Jenkins, his dissertation was on pro-slavery thought, did an excellent job. His book has been reprinted since his death and is pertinent now. And Fletcher Green's was on revsing the state constitutions. I have forgotten the exact title of his dissertation—but the early movement to rewrite the constitutions in the antebellum period.
So it wasn't terribly terribly unusual after your first year . . .
To have an historian. No, no. These two . . . then Paul Wager in political science, although government and history were in the same department. Paul Wager was also in the Institute so I guess you can say there were four of us in history who were in the Institute—in the second year of the Institute.
Well, as far as support by the history department then, of the faculty. They were another department that did battle?
Yes, yes. They liked the idea of the Institute, but they were afraid of
Dr. Odum's leadership. And it was chiefly the Negro. You see
Bill Jenkins' dissertation was pro-slavery
thought.
Hamilton's ideas you've talked about. Hamilton was head and then Conner followed him, am I right?
Yes, Conner was head of the history department after Hamilton retired to become head of the—collector of the Southern Historical Collection. And Mr. Conner took over. I think that he received honorary doctorates, but he objected to being called Dr. Conner.
And then Newsome followed.
Followed Conner, yes.
So Mr. Conner was head when you were doing Antebellum North
Carolina.
No, he was just a professor and did not become head of the department until after he [Dr. Hamilton resigned.]. He went to the Archives in '34. I'm sorry, I'm not clear about that. I don't recall. To the National Archives, I think he went in 33 or 34.
At your suggestion for setting up . . .
Yes, yes, National Archives.
So who did you do most of your work under?
Dr. Conner. You see, he was a professor. Professor Conner, I forget and
call him Doctor. And I must say that I liked him very much because he
left me alone. He would say of my history that I was writing,
"I guess this is all right. But you"re not writing
history; you're writing sociology. But you're
documenting it all right. Since its documented I guess it's
history, but it's really sociology." And he said
"As you know, I don't know anything about
sociology." And I would say, "No one in this
department . . . " He would permit me to be very naughty and
talk back to him and that was one reason why I liked him.
I've always, ever since I was a child I've had a
reputation for being naughty and talking back to people. Much to the
Was he in the same period? In antebellum?
His chief interest was in colonial history, although his course in North Carolina history was a two semester course and he brought the history in the second course up to about the middle of the antebellum period. He spent most of the time on colonial, because that was his chief interest. The first course was from early colonial days until, hopefully, the revolution, but he never quite made the revolution. And then he picked up where he had left off and obviously could not get through the antebellum period.
Was he putting heavy emphasis on political history. This was mainly what was being done?
Oh yes. Political history . . . there was no such thing as social history. That's another field, said the historians. I think that the history department was shaken up and certainly the other—there were five or six of us who received doctorates (not that many, maybe there were four) — who received doctorates in history the year that I took my doctorate. And for my dissertation to win the Smith research award was shattering.
This was an award given by . . .
By the University. Well, the graduate school administered the awards and
there were awards in certain different fields. One in social science.
Mine received the award in social science. And then there was one in
language and this man who said he didn't like to associate
with people who were favorable toward the
Well, you mentioned very briefly and in a very tantalizing way I thought when Jackie was here about the Sea Island project and about Woofter and about his . . . Could you go into a little more detail about the story about that?
I don't really want to do that because it was most unfortunate and a pathetic aspect of a very fine mind. Well, the basic of the whole difficulty was that he was an alcoholic.
Well, where you lost us, you said that the project was started and that he was being hired at the university and then something had happened to put him out of favor.
Simply . . . well, since I have gone this far and said that he was an alcoholic, I will have to tell you that the incident was that he was leaving Atlanta—they had not moved to Chapel Hill—he was leaving Atlanta for a conference at Dartmouth College. He was driving, and on the way he was arrested in Danville, Va, because he was found drunk, asleep in his car on the city dump with the front wheels of his car extending over the abyss. So he was clapped in jail and the headlines were all over the papers of the South.
Oh, and this was right before he was to come to UNC.
Yes. So Dr. Odum scurried around and obtained a grant to study St Helena Island. He had always wanted to explore the situation. A bridge had just been built across Port Royal Island to Lady's Island leading to St Helena and this would open up this isolated area to more commerce.
Time was of the essence . . .
Yes. So on the basis that here were the Sea Island Negroes who were about
to be introduced to the big city of Beaufort and the wicked ways of
Beaufort, we must get down to St Helena and study their culture before
it is too late . . . He was able to get a grant from the National
Research Council for this research
And then Dr. Odum named Dr. Woofter . . . Am I correct in that name?
Woofter. Thomas Jackson Woofter, Jr.
And named him as director of the project, with you and Guy working.
Yes. And Clyde Kaiser, who later went to the Millbank Fund and has stayed there ever since as one of the directors of the Fund. And Clarence Heer from here who was in economics did a small part of the study. And that's about all.
So, what was the resolution of that? Did the project save Dr. Woofter as far as . . .
Yes, yes. I know that when Mr. Conner was objecting to my going and participating in the study . . .
Because you were taking time out from . . .
From the antebellum study. You see, I had my doctor's degree.
Mr. Conner was very eager for me to complete that and had said
"I'm going to take you away from those socialists
over there in the sociology department. I'm going to bring
you over here as my assistant and together we'll do this
research that I have been neglecting." And I said "Oh,
I would like that very much but first I want to know just what my rank
would be and what my salary would be"
You were making more than that in the Institute?
Yes, I was making more than that in the Institute. I was making
$150—
When I was here with Jackie and you were talking about Katherine Jocher and her apparently not at all getting her salary and status established as you say you did every time. I thought of this when I was talking to Mrs. Parker because she hadn't either . . . It seems if you didn't say, you were automatically paid less.
Automatically put on the servant level.
This is how you got around that. You always confronted it . . .
Before. I don't know how I was smart enough to do that. I don't remember anyone telling me to, but I just had the hunch that this was the time to do it and I always did before I would agree to take any kind of job.
You said you [and Guy] were very firm in getting your positions established together because your credentials were the same. Then you had a basis to proceed with the associate professor level. I think even now that research assistants are at associate professor level at the Institute.
Probably so. I don't know.
I believe this is the same procedure now. So then after you finished writing the St Helena book and the two companion volumes that go with it then all of you came back and Dr. Woofter was in the sociology department here.
Yes, he was accepted because he had been away for almost two years
What was his institutional affiliation before he came?
He was in the Interracial Commission. The Southern Interracial Commission, based in Atlanta, which Dr. Will Alexander had established following World War I.
That was what Arthur Raper worked on, right?
Yes. As a matter of fact, I think Arthur Raper took Jack's place when Jack came up here I think. Arthur Raper was in the Institute for Research and Social Science for awhile when we were here.
Before he went to Atlanta?
Yes, before he went to Atlanta. And he received his doctorate here.
After you two?
. . . before he went to Atlanta he received his doctorate.
So he was one of the socialists in town.
Yes, one of the socialists in Chapel Hill.
He was one of Dr. Odum's students?
Yes.
After you finished that then, both of you came back and you were writing
Antebellum North Carolina . . . You've
talked about the acceptance of that in the history department and the
way . . . you were kind of apart from . . .
Yes, yes. I'm quite sure that no one lecturing in history
wanted to think of me as being a research associate in history
— you know, doing research in history. They wanted to think
of me as being a sociologist because they insisted that my Antebellum North Carolina was not history, it was sociology.
"So she's really a sociologist."
I was in the North Carolina collection and was going through some of
Guy's
We would often walk for a little bit of exercise in the late afternoon.
He would be writing an article, an essay, or developing some point in
some of the work that he was doing with Dr. Odum, and he would say
I'm hung up on this idea. Now he had taught, at Baylor
College he had taught in American history, so that he was not ignorant
of American history. But he had never had political theory. And I adored
political theory. I've always liked to develop concepts and
value premises and to get at the basic thinking of any essay that
I'm reading or writing. He would say "I think such
and such" and I'd say "Well, tell me
more." And then as we would walk around through the arboret and
around the campus he would spell out his ideas and I would say
"Now let me see if I can document what you're
saying. And do you think . . . " and together we would work out
these ideas. Often I would think, well, obviously, Guy
doesn't know much about American history and I'd
often say, "The trouble with sociologists is that you do not
know any history. They would be better sociologists if they knew
history." And Dr. Odum's response would be
"History is a dead science. History is unimportant. It is a
dead end. It's better to forget history and go on from
now." Dr. Odum and I always had this little quarrel going.
The whole idea of studying sociology over time is one of the most, in
fact the very most, interesting thing that I think can be done. Well,
then you have collaborated on a few of the . . . the one that I noticed
was "Patterns of Race Conflict" where he drew from Antebellum North Carolina and used North Carolina as a
base.
And then all my . . . you see we had an office together and all my
documents were here in my files and in lecturing he would want to see if
I had something in this area to spice his lecture and he would go to my
files. I would come to write this area and I would say "You
have taken something from my files. I remember distinctly that I had
something on such and such. Where is it?" And he would say
"Oh, I must have used that in my lecture. Oh, I'm
sorry, here it is."furious
with Noblett. Just furious with him to assume that I would turn to Guy,
ask Guy to write my paper that I was going . . . but this again . . . I
think this is the attitude of historians toward women in the field of
history. He just assumed that I would be incompetent to write history
even though I had done Antebellum North Carolina.
Nevertheless, he thought that it would be impossible for me write on the
[philosophical field of] southern paternalism toward the Negro since
1870.
Now was the attitude pretty much the same as far as sociologists went or do you . . . Were husband and wife teams . . .
No . . . yes, I think of Dr. W. I. Thomas and Dorothy Thomas. They were
accepted. They taught together at the University of Chicago. And later,
he had retired, he was much older than Dorothy, but the, at the
University of California at Berkeley he did some lecturing. I think that
in the field of sociology the attitude was much more liberal toward
husband and wife teams than. Of course, there were not very many, there
have not been very many husband and wife teams in sociology. I think of
Kluckholm, the Kluckholms at Yale. Florence's work was in
anthropology as well as her husband's but she felt that she
had to go into sociology in order to be able to get a job at Yale. So
she was on a lowly basis,
Now was the rule in effect here when you were . . .
Oh yes.
. . . that husband and wife teams could not work in the same department?
Well, on the staff you could have a lowly job, the wife could, but not a creditable status position if your husband was employed on campus. The Institute was held for a long time not really to be a part of the University and we were to go to the University of Texas on the same basis.3 The University of Texas had a very rigid anti-nepotism law and Dr. Splawn who was president of the University of Texas (and was a long-standing friend of ours, my family, and had taught at Baylor College and I had known him there, and he wanted to set up an Institute for Research similar to the one here) came to talk over possibilities on his way to going to New York to get funds and saw Guy and me and asked us if we would come to help set up an Institute and of course we were eager to get back to Texas at that time and said yes, and Dr. Splawn said, "Now of course, in the Institute I think it can be worked out for both of you to be on the staff. If not, we will pay Guion the same salary as an associate professor, but we might not be able to give her that rank because of anti-nepotism but I think we can get around it just as it's being debated here."
So you could never really have held a position in the History Department. A teaching position.
No, not really. That's the reason Mr. Connor wanted me to be his assistant and was not willing to put any status to the title because it actually could not have been done, although I do not think that there was (I have not been through all the laws) but I do not think that any specific law had been passed such as in Texas.
I was just trying to think if I had heard of one being appealed or erased and I don't remember hearing that.
I don't think there was any law, it was just an unwritten law. Perhaps a trustee's policy.
I think there is now one, though, that you can't work in the same department.
Maybe, would it be a law, a state law?
That I don't know. I know that Donald Mathews and his wife could not be hired in the same department. At Duke you must be able to because the Scotts . . .
I don't know.
It must be a little bit different. You mentioned that you were at Yale between 1937, I think, what were you . . .
We went, '36 and '37, to University of Chicago and
to Yale. Guy was given a grant, the National Research Council, for
post-doctoral study at Chicago, six months at Chicago and six months at
Yale, and we went. And I was planning, and did, attend some seminars in
the Department of History, but had to stop all of this when suddenly I
had a letter from Bill Couch, director of the Press, saying,
"We have begun publication of Antebellum North
Carolina and you will soon be receiving galley proof which we
would like to have promptly returned because we hope to get the book out
by September, '37.
So that's what you were doing.
Yes, yes. I was reading galley proof and page proof both at Chicago and at Yale, and I had to give up the seminars that I had started.
And then when you came back it was published. He did make his deadline, I guess?
Yes, he did make his deadline.
And then, soon after that, you went for the Myrdal study.
In '39, yes.
We talked about the feeling in Chapel Hill as far as the work with
We got no repercussions at all that I'm aware of. We had built up a wide circle of friends who were supportive. For example, the Spruills were very good friends of ours, but they were also very good friends of the D. D. Carrolls (Dr. Carroll, being a constant enemy of Dr. Odum's and the watchdog of the Institute) you would expect to be antagonistic toward us, but they never, neither Mrs. Carroll or Mr. Carroll, showed any animosity toward me, at least I never felt any. But one of my secretaries once said to me, "I wish I could be like you. When people are ugly to you, you act as though you don't notice it and go on, and are just as pleasant and act as though you've been complimented. I wish I could. It makes me furious and I want to fight. But you know, I see you get along much better by pretending not to hear an insult."
Well, you mentioned that you had come back a period, and someone said, "Why, are you wasting your time on this kind of a project?" Was that kind of the feeling?
Yes.
Were you the only ones who went from Chapel Hill?
From Chapel Hill, yes we were. Well, of course, there was still, and probably still is, a great deal of feeling in Chapel Hill that anyone who spends any time studying the problems of the Negro or doing anything for the Negro is wasting his time. But this group in Chapel Hill is in the minority now. There's been a wide acceptance of the importance of working with the Negro in the Chapel Hill community. Witness the election of Mayor Howard Lee.
Things have come almost full circle.
Yes! With the Chapel Hill Newspaper for the most part,
now, in the
Seeing his own line change.
Yes.
Well, when you got to New York and started doing your study were you one of the few historians who . . .
Yes, I was the only historian.
So, again you were considered a sociologist.
Than a historian, yes. I did the history of racial ideologies . . .
But they desperately needed someone . . .
Well, I think they did.
He was asking you to . . . while he was gone . . . administer . . .
No, he placed great responsibility on Guy. He wanted me to [complete the
idealogy study and go through and pull out the value premises of all the
writers who had published in the field of race relations. Which was a
big order. And get that done within a month's time. And then
from there, I was to help Sam Stouffer who was coming in to take his
place as director. Stouffer was a statistician and was coming in to take
his place as overall coordinator of the project, in going over the
manuscripts that had been turned over by various staff members. And to
revise, edit their work. Which was, again, a rather large order
because
Oh my word. You said that yours was the only complete manuscript . . .
That met the deadline. I had a deadline of the first of March. Yes, that was the only one that was completed so that he could take it back with him to Sweden. And he had time to read it on the boat. He went on a freighter.
Now he did a lot of the revising over there..?
No, he didn't. He just read it. He was never one to do what he called "the nigger work." This is a term that the Swedes have for hard work. He caused quite an incident when he walked into Dr. Thomas' office and said "Well, we've got a new young graduate from Howard University we're bringing on to the staff and he can be your little nigger boy, Dorothy." The man was in the office next to them and heard what Gunnar had said. He didn't confront Gunnar Myrdal with his words but went in to Dorothy Thomas' office and raged "If this is the way the director of this program speaks and thinks about Negroes, I'm leaving." And Dorothy had to soothe him and said "Oh, you don't know. I've done research in Sweden and this is just a Swedish expression. And it grows out of the slavery period. This is all that it means. He did not mean this as a term of derogation. It just meant that you would help me with the hard research."
Gunnar Myrdal from what you've said, had a fairly flamboyant personality.
Oh, yes, yes.
Was he married?
Yes! Alva Myrdal. Alva is as distinguished in Sweden as Gunnar is. Has been ambassador from Sweden to India. Has written, and has been in government work. Quite at length.
She wasn't here?
Yes, she was here and was doing some writing and quite a bit of
lecturing.
How long were they here and how long . . .
They were here before the staff was assembled, they were here for about a
year and he had the office which he later gave to me in the Columbia
University library. And was going through reading and formulating his
ideas about the Negro in America. And then gathered his staff. Travelled
all over the United States interviewing various people. Came here to
talk to Guy and me, through Donald Young who was then a professor of
sociology at the University of Pennsylvania. He was the one who
suggested both of us to Gunnar and came here with Gunnar for
Gunnar's interview with us. Gunnar had been looking for
someone to do the ideological study and had been explaining what he
wanted done and said, "I have not found anyone to whom
I've talked who even thinks this is important. But Don Young
tells me because of your Antebellum North Carolina
that you would understand what I'm trying to do. And if you
will consider it I will be grateful to you." So I asked him to
let me think about it and to write me a statement that I would consider.
And again, what would be my salary? An American Dilemma, he
lists me among those who also helped. Because I did insult him when he
came here to ask me to go back to Princeton. They were to do the
writing. Arnold Rose was to do most of the writing but he wanted some
little nigger girls to help him. And he wanted to know if I would go to
Princeton and be one of his little nigger girls and I said absolutely
not. He said "Well, will you write a synopsis of these works
that you did?" You see I did the ideology, the value premises
of the leading writers in the area of race relations, the Negro church,
and the church and race relations.4
Those were three large manuscripts that I did. I don't
remember how many pages I did on the value
. . . four separate . . . of what you want to publish is the racial ideology . . .
Yes, the racial ideology, which was approved for publication in 1940 and
I wouldn't release it. Don Young and Mr. Harrison, Shelby
Harrison, were the two leading ones who were on the selection
staff—the manuscripts.5 And
they asked me to come to New York for an interview so that they could
persuade me to release my manuscript. They said
"You'll be sorry, you'll be
sorry." And I am. They were right and I was desperately wrong.
Why were you not . . .
I had done that manuscript from scratch in six months, less than six months, from September to the first of March.
I see, so you wanted more time . . .
I wanted more time. I felt that . . . I said that . . . I'm
sorry to be vulgar, but I described my work as projectile vomiting.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
This was the greatest7 [above]. Once
when I went to take communion at the church [St. Mark's
Methodist] I was half way down, coming up from communion, by a woman
whose daughter I had in Sunday school class. And she said "You
have had communion?" I said "Yes."
"I would think you would be afraid the Lord would strike you
dead! She exclaimed "
Right in the church?
In the church. Some of my good Sunday school friends saw this and came to me and said "Don't pay any attention to her. She's crazy."
That must be discouraging.
The tea has put our discussion out of my mind.
I guess we were talking about the Myrdal study . . . I wanted to ask just
about . . . and I know so little and have only read part of the American Dilemma.
It's a big fat book.
If I get way off the track of something that I should know, just tell me and I'll go read it.
No, don't.
I was curious about the staff and your interaction with the staff while you were there.
We had very cordial interaction. Even the . . . there was a young Communist (Lyonel C. Florant) who was a very brilliant student in economics and took his master's from Columbia and was working on his doctorate at Columbia, who was the only one who was at all antagonistic—as far as we were aware.
He was antagonistic from the left.
Yes, from the left. He said that he didn't want any blankity
blank southern white woman writing on racial ideology. That if Gunnar
Myrdal was to have a study of the history of racial ideology it should
be from a northern black and not a blankity blank southern white woman.
I was not aware of this undercurrent because he was always very pleasant
and cordial to me. And his wife was on the Daily
Worker staff. So, some of our friends said, "Invite him to
your apartment together. And just in your natural conversation treat him
as you would without this knowledge of his objecting to your doing the
historical study. You'll convert him." So we did
invite them to come and have dinner with us. And his wife wanted to
spend all of her time leaning out the window looking at the beautiful
view into Jersey. We were on Riverside Drive and here was the river, and
the lights were very lovely. In fact, the de Haas painting that we have
was made from almost this point. It doesn't show up quite as
well because of the glass on it. It's an oil painting but we
need to have the glass removed and the picture cleaned. Then . . . it
was a lovely view of New Jersey. She said, "I
wouldn't mind being rich, if I could live in an apartment
like this and look out at this beautiful view." We could hardly
. . . by that time the children-we had sent the children back to Chapel
Hill. School was out and our housekeeper had gone back and our cook had
gone back to Chapel Hill. So we were going to take them [the Florants]
out. We were going to have hors d'oeurves and
He must have been very young . . .
Yes, he was. He was very young. Dorothy Thomas thought that he had the best mind of any of the Negroes on the staff, although Ralph Bunche was on the staff and . . .
How large was it altogether?
People came and went and actually Ralph Bunch was there very little,
although he was supposed to be one of the major staff members. And his
contribution to the research was simply his doctoral dissertation from
Harvard. And he was out most of the time. Then there was Dr. D.A.
Wilkerson, who
Now what was his research on?
Migration. He knew nothing at all about the attempts of Lincoln to get, to use the free slaves in developing, in building the railroad. Knew nothing at all about that experiment and did not include it. But I considered that a very important part, aspect of Negro migration because it did start the movement of the freed slaves out of the South. Although they were not successful as railroad workers, it nevertheless gave some impetus to the migration movement. But Florant didn't know anything about that. So I rewrote that part and from a twenty, or twenty-one page manuscript I think I did more than 100 pages. Saving as much of his material (as possible) and using it.
This was when he was still around?
Yes, he was still around.
And you were just asked . . .
Yes, and that was one of the reasons he was so angry. Because he—I had been given his manuscript to revise.
And expand.
Yes, and expand.
So that was the basic group . . .
Dr. Thomas was there for a short time then went on to California. Guy was
the assistant-associate director. And Ralph Bunche was supposed to
And then he, was he involved in the writing?
No, he was not. Arnold Rose.10
And Arnold Rose had not been there?
No, he had not been on the staff.
Wasn't that a kind of strange . . .
Strange way . . .
Strange situation . . .
Yes. I think that Sam probably was asked to write the manuscript, but he
knew quite well what [could happen] that he would have all the work to
do, that Gunnar Myrdal would discuss the ideas and very brilliantly,
because he is a
Well were you happy with what Arnold brought out?
Well, I was so angry with Gunnar Myrdal that I actually have not read the manuscript through. I've used the index and table of contents to find the parts that I'm interested in, to trace my materials through. And have just dipped in to it. Have not read the book through. And I'm sorry. It has been so well received that I'm obliged to say that . . . Rose was a scholar and a very careful student . . .
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
You were talking about Louis Worth . . . the only scholarly . . .
Which of course thrilled me . . . and Louis . . . repeatedly, as long as he lived, every time he'd see me, or write me a letter [would] say, "When are you going to release Ideology? This is a book that needs to be published. When are you going to release it?" But it hasn't been released yet.
If you can find Chapter One . . .
If I can find Chapter One. I may decide that the
original Chapter One is all right after all. After all that year of
work. I was saying that [when we left Atlanta] we had put—I
had put all these manuscripts from my desk in one big carton. And that
was the one carton, plus some others, that the [moving] van could not
take, could not hold. And I wanted to bring, to put it in the car, the
trunk of the car. But the car was already full and I said
"Well, they're coming back tomorrow and get the
rest" and when the van finally, three or four weeks later, came
with this part load, I did not find the carton. But I was reassured.
"It was, oh yes, it's here. You'll find
it here. We had to
So they had gone back and picked up other things.
They went back and picked up some of the things. But I think . . .
something like the wheelbarrow
The rake and the hoe.
The rake and the hoe. They were on a screened porch but I think somebody came by and helped themselves but they wouldn't take the box of trash, which was papers. Guy still promises me that I'll find that manuscript and my precious letters11 in the basement. And we're now unloading the boxes in the basement. He said "This summer, I'm sure you're going to find Chapter One."
Maybe you will.
Maybe I will.
I meant to tell you. You had mentioned that it was on microfilm at UNC. I looked for it and couldn't find it.
You couldn't find it? Well, it is supposed to be on microfilm.
Now I looked downstairs in the main microfilm file and also in the North Carolina collection.
And its not listed under my name? Well, I know they have had a microfilm copy. I don't know what has happened.
I'll ask again when I get in touch with the head lady. It might be checked on to see what has happened to it.
Well, if you want to look at the manuscript, I'll be very glad for you to use the working copy that Arnold Rose and Gunnar Myrdal used.
I would love to look at that.
Which eventually was returned to me and the first typing went to the
Schomburg collection. And that was the copy that was put on microfilm. I
know its on microfilm because I've had letters from all over
saying, "It's so difficult to read this
microfilm, if you could possibly let me have
We should check again. I'll ask them again because it certainly should be here.
Yes it should be. Because they did have a copy. I know that.
Well, I don't know anything about the microfilm. It wouldn't be in the Southern Historical Collection?
I don't think so. I don't know. Carolyn Wallace would know of course. Do you know her? I think she knows more about the content than almost anyone because she's been there longer.
Oh . . . I was in there one day and I was amazed at what she could tell me . . . in the card catologue under everything I could think of. But I'll check again. They might have just misplaced it. Might not be a card.
Yes. I did not understand that either. Several times I've been in the library and just looked to see if it were listed and did not find it under Gunnar Myrdal or under Johnson. I thought it might be listed under Guy's name.
I looked under American Dilemma. So . . . how many
people reviewed each one. Was there a large staff to read the . . .
I suppose four. Donald Young, Shelby Harrison, Louis Worth and then someone who had a specialty in this field would be a fourth member who would usually read the . . . but those three come to mind.
And then when the reviews . . . but this was for your own personal
manuscript
No, part of my Ideology manuscript. And various other persons
. . . publish the Negro church, too. Not much has been done . . .
I know. Those two were not approved for publication. I don't know why, except it was read, those two manuscripts were read by a friend of ours at Yale who had done something on Mississippi which we did not like and which I reviewed unfavorably. And so he gave me a very bad mark on my review, on those two manuscripts. I'd taken maybe six weeks to do one and six weeks to do the other. That sort of thing. He was right. It was not a through job.
But as a basis for . . . really its amazing how little has been done.
Yes, this is true.
You would think now after, what, thirty years . . .
Don't mention it, more than thirty years. Thirty-four years.
You would think the shelves would be full of things. Well then, you spent the time after you came back revising . . .
Yes, revising. I went to New York to do research, some more research. Carnegie Corporation gave me and Guy some more money to do more research on his study of crime and me to do more research, if I wished. Or to use the money in any way. They said "You don't have to do anything. You just weren't paid enough. And so we're giving this to you as sort of an honorarium or some compensation for the hard work that you put in on the study." But I chose to use mine to go to New York and employee a secretary and collect more data.
And then when you came back from that were plans in the making for you to go to Atlanta for . . .
No . . . came back and did research for a year. Then the war came and I
was stopped in the middle of a sentence. When one of the women in
This was here?
Here in Chapel Hill. Before I went in to the V12 program. Then I did the office of civil defense work, which was the public relations officer for the county, went all over the county . . .
What kinds of things were you doing?
Simply explaining the position of America in the war and the need for
cooperation and the need to plant war gardens and explaining the
rationing program, trying to get the cooperation, simply get the
cooperation of the people to observe rationing. And rationing was
successful, despite everything Mr. Nixon has said about it's
being unsuccessful. It was successful. I wrote for the national office a
little, several little books on "Know Your Community"
and "How To Interpret the War." And in the closing
days of the war I was tracked down in Macon, Georgia, by Paul Porter who
asked me please to come and take over the community service division in
Washington. And travel all over the western United States, doing for
them what I had done . . . I had set up conferences here and had invited
the national people down to show how we had brought the local people in
to discuss their understanding of the rationing program. And this
This was with the end of the war . . .
This was in 1946 that he tracked me down in Macon, where I was trying to help with getting volunteers for the juvenile court in Macon.
Why was the rationing program . . . you thought it was being killed prematurely?
Yes, and that there had been relaxation on the national level and that there had been so many prominent people speaking against the rationing program that I . . .
Whereas if they had been supporting . . .
Whereas if they had been supportive, yes.
Did they just think things were over and there's no need . . .
Yes, no need. And then, of course, industry and business had been violently opposed to the program. Because the prices were being held down. War Price and Control Board. Some people . . . this was a part of the campaign to abolish rationing as soon as possible.
You were still . . .
I had nothing at all to do [with OPA in Atlanta] We'd gone to Atlanta and I was in the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare.
And so this had all been in North Carolina.
All of my work, yes, had been in North Carolina.
And then the V-12 program, you taught in . . .
Yes . . . I guess beginning in January 43.
And then that went until . . .
August of 44.
And then you left and . . .
Went to Atlanta. Came back in late August of 47.
So you were there for three years.
Yes.
When you were there . . . you had mentioned that when you were in Atlanta
. . . that you were working for, working at editing Georgia
Welfare and Executive secretary with the Georgia Conference
On Social Welfare. Yes, right.
I was really interested in how you said you were all over the state and trying to drum up support for the Regional Council.
Well, doing this indirectly.
Right, but I was just wondering where you went for support. Who were other liberal groups who were supporting Guy's work in Atlanta at that time? Who were your allies and who were your enemies?
The churches were allies for the most part. The Methodist Church, Bishop Arthur Moore, was very supportive. And the Presbyterian Church and the Episcopal Church. And I worked with United Church Women on the state level and on the local level.
This was when your volunteer work really got cranked up again for the first time.
Yes, this is true. But the board of the Conference on Social Welfare was very eager for me to participate in all aspects of the life of the community in order to enhance the prestige of the Conference on Social Welfare and make it more possible for the legislature to open the purse for social welfare programs.
I see. That was a big switch for you, to go from research and writing on
Antebellum North Carolina then Gunnar Myrdal . . .
Yes . . . yes . . . it was.
How did you get involved in it initially. Were . . . I mean, did someone approach you and ask . . .
Yes, yes. The president of the Georgia conference on social welfare and Mrs. M.E. Tilly who you know—no, I think it was Jackie I said should study Mrs. Tilly. Mrs. Tilly did much of the work that Mrs. Daniels—what's her name—Jesse Daniel Ames had been getting credit for doing. Mrs. Tilly came to me with Miss Lucille Wilson, who was director of Old Age Assistance in State Dept. Public Welfare . . .
END OF INTERVIEW
An American Dilemma as Samuel A. Stouffer and
Lyonel C. Florant, "Negro Population and Negro Population
Movements: 1860-1940, in Relation to Social and Economic
Factors."
The American Dilemma was prepared"with the