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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
G-0029-3, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill”
Guion Griffis Johnson was a preeminent sociologist, educated at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill during the 1920s. In this interview (the third in a four-part series), Johnson focuses primarily on her education, her work with the Institute for Institute for Research in Social Sciences (IRSS) during the 1920s and 1930s, her participation in the Carnegie-Myrdal Study of the Negro in America, and the challenges of being a woman academic during that era. Johnson begins with a brief discussion of her formative years in Greenville, Texas. Focusing on how her father had provided a model of racial tolerance and that she grew up believing women should have the same opportunities as men. In 1924, Johnson began her doctoral degree, alongside her husband, Guy B. Johnson, at UNC. Both worked for the newly formed IRSS, spearheaded by Howard Odum, and aligned themselves with those on campus who shared their progressive views on race relations. In describing her work with the IRSS, Johnson focuses on some of the opposition the Institute faced from various sectors of the academic community. During the 1930s, Johnson and her husband became well-versed in the history of race relations in the South and the sociology of race. As a result, they both joined the Carnegie-Myrdal Study for the Study of the Negro in America in 1939. Johnson describes the research and writing they did for the study, as well as her interactions with Gunnar Myrdal and other members of the study. In addition to discussing her work in southern race relations, Johnson speaks at length throughout the interview about the challenges she faced as a female academic. She offers several anecdotes regarding her efforts to challenge salary disparities and describes her experiences as one of the few women graduate students at UNC and as a professor. Finally, Johnson discusses what it was like to be half of a so-called "husband and wife team" in academia. Throughout the interview, Johnson touches on the challenges and experiences of academics with progressive views of both race and gender from the 1920s into the early 1940s.
Renowned southern sociologist Guion Griffis Johnson discusses her education, her work with the Institute for Research in Social Sciences, her participation in the Carnegie-Myrdal Study of the Negro in America, and the challenges of being a woman academic during the 1920s and 1930s. Throughout the interview, she emphasizes the challenges and experiences of academics with progressive views of race and gender during that era.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Well, this past week when I went to the Institute in Raleigh for the Archives thing, I met a friend of yours, I believe . . .
Mattie . . .
Parker . . .
Oh yes Parker is her married name. I knew her as Mattie Edwards.
She gave a speech at one of the sessions on her colonial records work.
Oh yes, yes.
And then there was a party afterwards, and I ended up sitting next to her and talked to her a little bit and told her about the project. And she said, "Well, I'm basically against women's studies, black studies." Then I explained a little bit more about it and about Jackie's interests being a little bit broader than women's studies per se . . .
Yes, than just women . . .
. . . and she kind of came round and thought it might be an interesting thing to pursue. But she has had an interesting career.
Yes, she has.
The scholarship and the work that she has done is really first-rate.
Yes it is. Yes, she's excellent. I've been very
fond of her. I knew her sister, too, quite well, and let her sister live
with us for awhile, because she was Mattie Frma's sister. We
had this room downstairs as a guest room. We let her have the guest room
for, oh, about half a year and enjoyed her very
Now, was her sister also in academic work?
She was a public school teacher, and she was coming to upgrade her certificate.
Oh, I see, so she was working at the University.
Yes, she was teaching here in the public school system, and taking some courses, too. But she was teaching in the elementary school.
Well, she was talking about trying to get her graduate work done right in the throes of the Depression . . .
That's true.
How hard it was, how money was cut off, and worked a year at Radcliffe and then had to come home.
That's right. She is related to the Houses. You know, Bob House was the Chancellor of the University for a great many years and it was actually through the Houses that I met Mattie Frma.
Well, she has some interesting stories about working at Meredith and about working around the state and was, I think, really in her prime in her work with the Archives and the project that she did there. It was interesting to meet her. She suggested that it would be interesting to do a project studying . . . and Jackie said that a project like this had been done . . . taking her class in say, 1925 from Greensboro and then take succeeding classes in '35, '45, '55 and on.
Yes, I think there have been a number of studies like this. Radcliffe has done one. They followed up on Mimi, our older son's wife, who is a graduate of Radcliffe; took her doctorate there. And Mimi was a part of a study done by Radcliffe. And I think that Vassar has done the same thing, perhaps Smith. It has been done especially in women's colleges.
And in the Northeast.
Yes, in the Northeast rather than . . .
I can't think of one that has been done in the South, but . . .
No, I can't either.
But it would be interesting to compare the South with the Northeast.
Yes, yes. Randolph Macon may have done something like this. Gladys Coates would know, Mrs. Albert Coates.
Yes, I'll have to check on that, I'm not sure. I'm not sure which ones Jackie had in mind, she just said that some had been done. But another thing, they mentioned . . . you had talked about Gertrude Weil last time, and they said, when they were introducing the different collections that they have . . .
They have hers?
They have hers. In fact, they named it as one of the most complete and one of the most exciting that they have.
Miss Weil would do that, would keep everything.
Well, apparently, her mother made them write home once a week when they were in college and her mother was the real saver and . . .
. . . kept all the . . .
. . . everything. Then, she lived at home for quite awhile, and her mother, I guess kept a lot of her things. So, they said that it is just a really exciting collection.
I'm sure that it is.
A very complete collection of what was going on and they said that she was so tremendously active.
That's very true. I'm so delighted to know that her papers have been kept.
It was really amazing in the way that they presented it. You know, it
We suggested when she came here to interview us that she look through Miss Gertrude's papers, and she said that she had. She said, "I have, but I haven't found anything, "so, evidently, the letters were in the attic or the basement and must not have been disturbed.
They must not have been, because they said that she had been there quite a bit.
Good. Yes, she found . . .
She must have found a real gold mine. Well, one thing, when I was going back over the transcript from . . . it wasn't last week, I didn't mean to say that . . . I mean from last time, we talked about the idea that you had suggested that Southern women should know and understand about the movement of the Negro and what the Negro wanted, because they had comparable status over a period of time in this country.
Yes.
I was wondering . . . that wasn't at all a widespread idea, as you said, with the horror that your speech was met . . .
Yes.
Or the reception that your suggestion met with at that meeting. But I was wondering why you and Guy came out with these ideas at the time that you did. We talked a little bit about your background as far as women were concerned, your mother's ideas about education, but what about the idea of . . .
Regarding the Negro, and the status of the Negro?
Yes.
I think that I gained respect for the status of the Negro and the
Negro
You mentioned that your grandfather had moved to Texas to get away from the horrors of Reconstruction and . . .
Yes, yes. And there came with him a Negro couple, and he built a house for them in his back yard, and I knew them as Old Aunt Anne and Old Uncle Tom and loved them dearly. And then, there were only a few Negro families in Wolfe City where I was born, but they were somehow related to our family through employment or just through general affection. And across the street from us lived my father's father, who was, who fought for the North. So, he had a very high respect for the Negro and would speak of him as a "lamp-black white man." And my father had the same . . .
Where were they from?
From Ohio. My father was born in Ohio.
I see. And then his father had fought in the Civil War on . . .
Yes, in the Civil War on the Northern side.
. . . as a Yankee.
As Yankee, yes.
How did he ever come to Texas?
It was a rather sad family situation. His mother had died and his father had remarried a rather wealthy woman with two or three children of her own. Now, my father was the fifth or sixth in a family, no, he was probably the fourth in a family of six. And the only son. The children were very upset about . . . this was my father's grandfather, remarrying and in his will, he left all of his property to his second wife. And my ancestors set up the first tannery for the manufacture of shoes in Ohio. You know, at one time, Ohio was the center of shoe manfucturing, and still is to a certain extent. So, . . .
They had done quite well.
Yes, and after this, my grand father felt that he was destitute, since he would inherit none of his father's property, and he was very bitter toward his father and his stepmother and came to Texas. So, it was the result of a family situation that brought him from Ohio to Texas.
To get away and start over, and all that.
Yes.
Then, how was he employed in Texas?
I simply do not know, I don't know what he did.
But he and your father weren't in business together?
No, no. Because to me, he seemed to be very old, much older than my mother's father. He might not have been. I remember him as a very tall, handsome man. An unusually handsome man. But he didn't seem to need to work. He had his pension as a Yankee soldier, and some other additional income. And I remember him simply sitting on the front porch rocking.
What was your father's occupation?
My father owned a hardware store in Wolfe City.
And then you said that they moved to Greenville?
Yes, this was so, and he had a much larger hardware store in Greenville.
And he felt that we needed to get a better education than in the little
town of Wolfe City, which had about twelve hundred inhabitants. But it
was a very happy little community. Everyone knew everyone else, and was
highly respected. My father was on the schoolboard and in the little
local town council, and my grandfather of course, was very prominent . .
. that is, my grandfather Stephens. I think that I told you that he had
the desire to educate every rural boy and girl in the county who wanted
an education and could not afford to get one. And he did send many boys
and girls away to Burleson College, or Wesley College, two little junior
colleges
Baylor is Baptist, isn't it?
Yes, Baylor is Baptist.
And very strict, wasn't it?
It has been for a long time, I don't think that it is now. You will be interested to know that Mr. Jaworski and Guy were in the same class, the same graduating class at Baylor. So, Baylor has turned out a great many scholars and leaders. Wright Patman is another product of Baylor University.
That's very interesting.
But Baylor was very conservative, fundamentalist for a long time. And this turned Guy off from being a minister. He thought at one time that he would be a minister and when he went to Baylor, he was so turned off by the rigid fundamentalism in the department of religion, that he immediately moved into sociology and gave up all thought [of being a preacher].
I remember seeing the tremendous Bible building . . . I was on the campus once, and there is some kind of Bible Society building or something that is a most formidible structure on the campus.
Yes.
Also, they were very strict. I stayed in the dorm there just for a weekend..
Did you?
And they were very strict about wearing slacks outside of the dormitory, and . . .
Were they?
This was in late '68 or '69.
Really! Still very strict?
They were strict in comparison to what other places were requiring at that time.
I went to Baylor College, which was forty miles away . . .
That was the women's college.
That was the women's college, yes. And I returned in '73, no, '71, I'm forgetting my dates . . . '73 for the Texas High School Press Association celebration and my own graduation [71], and there were girls in slacks all over the campus.
Well, I would guess that this was right before it broke down. Because
there were, that was late for such things, but they were very strict
about their rules.
Oh no, no. I'd like to illustrate one point about how keenly
my father felt about giving the Negro an opportunity to participate as a
full citizen in the community. He had a very competent Negro janitor in
his hardware store in Greenville. And the janitor had two almost white
children, although his wife was also what I call a "white
Negro." And I think that both of the children had blue eyes,
very fair skin and blondish, frizzy hair. And there was no way that they
could get any instruction in music which he wanted very much for his
children. He talked to my father about it and my father said,
"If you would like to send your children to my house, I have
one daughter who is taking violin and she will give one or both
daughters violin lessons, and then I have another daughter who is taking
lessons in speech. I think that it is very important for a good citizen
to stand on his own feet and know how to express himself. So, if you
would like for them to take speech and violin, I'll be
delighted to speak to my daughters and see if they would teach them and
I'm sure they will be very happy." He spoke to us,
my sister was the violinist and I was the speech major and we were
charmed to
So, it was definitely your father, rather than your mother.
Yes, although my mother's father, who had been a soldier in the Confederate Army, was also very liberal.
And he was the one who had left Mississippi?
Yes, he was the one who left Mississippi.
Well, was there any feeling in a town that small, as far as your father's ideas and your grandfather's, was there any . . .
If that's true, I was not aware of it. I was not aware of it in Greenville, either. Because the children came very frankly in the front door, and there was no attempt to close the windows so that the neighbors would not know that we were giving these children lessons in violin and speech.
But no other music teachers in town would open their doors . . .
That's true. They wouldn't accept them as pupils.
What about the school situation at that time?
They were segregated, a small, very small school.
But predominately public . . .
Oh, yes, public schools. Yes. The children were very grammatical.
Unmistakably they were upper class. The father and mother were well
trained and
Which was a step up.
And unheard of. I'm sure that his store was the only one in town that had a Negro clerk. But I was not aware of animus against us because of our attitude.
I want to talk about that later, but you certainly did feel such pressure later when you and Guy were so active.
But only in North Carolina. And Georgia. Not in Texas. When we would go back to visit our relatives, we would hear some repercussions, especially after 1954 and the Court decision. And my mother's cousin-in-law, who was a doctor and who owned one of the two hospitals in Greenville, was very reactionary.
And was upset? By repercussions, you mean that they would approach you and tell you . . .
Oh yes, and I remember once that the cousin whom we called Cousin Van
came to call when Guy and I had come for a visit, and she began
denouncing the Supreme Court decision and speaking in vitriolic terms
about the Negro. I knew better than to say anything, just to sit back
and listen, but Guy could not tolerate her opinion, and said something
in a quiet way, something very mild like, "I'm
sorry, I can't agree with you. I think you're
wrong." And got up and left the room, whereupon my father
followed him and said as he was leaving, "I like that boy Guy."
Keeping peace in the family.
She scolded my father and Guy later, saying, "Now you know Van, you know how reactionary she is. She was a guest in our house and you did not have to insult her."
The thing that amazes me, though, is that guests can often come in and attack you and you . . .
You are supposed to . . .
I'm amazed at what people will tell you.
This is true, that "women must be economically independent and must train themselves so that they will be competent to hold down important jobs and get good salaries. And that the Negro is a human being equal in capacity to the white man. He has been held in subjegation and has not been given the opportunity to develop his skills. Given the opportunity to develop his skills, he will show that he is comparable to the white man in native ability and ability to achieve."
While you were still at home, what about disenfranchisement, what about voting? Do you remember?
Of course, they could not vote, and you remember I told you last week that there was a small community about twenty miles from Greenville, where Negroes were not allowed to live.
Josephine, Texas, I think you said.
That's right, Josephine, Texas. So, that I was aware of discrimination, but it didn't touch me, because of my father's attitude, my grandfather's liberal attitude and because there were very few Negroes in Hunt County, where we lived.
But as far as your father . . . there really wasn't a platform for him to speak on as votes, it was pretty much by that time, very, very firm.
Solidified in the structure of the state.
Well then, when you left and went to Burleson and went to Baylor . . .
Well, you see, Burleson was in Greenville, so that I stayed at home.
You were at home then?
Yes.
So then, when you went to Baylor, what was the feeling there?
One never thought about the Negro. The Negro was never mentioned.
That's very interesting. I talked to Dr. Bell Wiley about studying under Philips, and I said, "Didn't it come out about this equality business?" "No, it didn't come up." No one talked about it.
No, no. Whereas in my classes here, especially in Dr.
Hamilton's class . . . Hamilton Hall
Why had he attended?
Yes, I don't recall the specifics. It seems to me that there was a panel discussion on the changing South, and that Dr. Odum was chairman of the panel and that Charles Johnson was one of the panel members. This is the way I recall it. It may have been quite different, but this is the way that I recall it.
It's surprising that he would attend, knowing . . .
Yes, knowing that a black man was to be one of the panelists.
Well, when you got up here, was it very different from what you had experienced . . .
Yes.
You were kind of deposited in the middle of . . .
I wrote a number of letters about the tremendous differences that I found here, and I was very unhappy here, because I found that I had been in a very free situation at Baylor College for women, where the entire faculty stressed the importance of education of women, and the importance of women training themselves not only in the home (We had an excellent home economics course, which my parents required me to take, and I loathed it, I felt that I already knew all I needed to know about cooking and sewing and taking care of the house and budgeting the family money) but not only home economics, but in every phase of work open to women.
Well, certainly your work in journalism was very new when you were going into it and . . .
Yes. So that I had an excellent—I felt that I was completely free and I was getting one of the top salaries, even though I was only 21 or 22. I was getting one of the top salaries on campus. And I felt that the sky was the limit.
Well, how old was the Baylor College for Women?
1845. Founded in 1845.
Why was it so different? Or was the attitude at Greensboro much the same? That it was a women's college . . .
I think that because it was a woman's college, and then the president of the woman's college, a native of Mississippi, Dr. John Hardy, had two daughters of his own, and he was very much in favor of the education of women and the development of the capacities of women and the citizenship roles that women should play. He had daily chapel, and we were required to attend and we were given assigned seats and there was monitoring. I resented going to chapel, but I have since realized the importance of his extemporaneous speeches on the abilities of women to achieve.
He spoke on this?
Everyday, practically everyday.
Well, comparing what Mrs. Parker said this past weekend about Greensboro College for Women, she said that the prevailing attitude when she was there was that "we are getting a good education and it is our duty to use it." The goal was not to marry and settle down. It was to use your education.
That's right. You know the old slogan that Dr. McIver, the president of Women's College adopted . . . "Educate a man and you educate a citizen; educate woman and you educate a family. And the world." That's not the exact quotation, but it's close. So, this was his concept and I think that he, too, arose in chapel every morning and . . . I know that they had required chapel at WC as well as at Baylor College. And I'm sure that he indoctrinated the women.
Well, it's interesting that these particular men felt the way that they did, and then that at the same time, you ran up against some pretty hardy characters that felt the other way, when you came to UNC.
Yes, this is true.
It would be interesting to know, or to see, what their backgrounds were
that
I think that perhaps one of the reasons was that the presidents of women's colleges felt that they did not have as prestigious positions as the president of a co-educational school, or a school for men and that they were somehow trying to justify their holding their positions, and that their concept of the education of women, and the importance of women, was more or less thrust upon them as an ego device.
They had vested interests in their graduates holding good positions.
That's right. This is the way I have decided that these men obtained their great interest in the education of women. It was, as you say, an ego investment. They must show to the president of the University at Chapel Hill that the Woman's College was just as important as the University of North Carolina and that their jobs were just as prestigious as Edward Kitter Graham is or Aldeman's job or Veneble's job.
And then too, I guess that they were fighting for funds.
Oh yes. The competition was intense and Dr. McIver wanted to develop a clientele that would go to the legislature and help him fight for funds. And Gertrude Weil was one that was constantly fighting for funds for WC.
Which is now co-educational.
Yes.
When you came to Chapel Hill and you started writing these letters home about being unhappy, what was the situation that . . .
That I objected to? The resentment of the student body objected to the presence of women on campus, and the faculty did so too. There were less than a hundred women.
Were they mainly in nursing?
No, there were no nursing courses at that time, here. Most of them
Now you said, I think in the first session that we had, that women weren't teaching . . .
Oh, no . . . no . . .
You didn't teach then except for military courses?
No, no . . . I didn't teach until World War II. 1943.
And then you were needed because . . .
Teachers were desperately needed. And I was recruited at the end of the
first semester. Dr. Newsome, who was at that time head of the history
department . . . And I had been one of his students and had taken all
the courses that he offered because I considered him to be one of the
best teachers in the history department. Dr. Newsome called me in and
said "Now we would like for you to teach full time." I
had just taught one course . . . two courses . . . the previous
semester. "We would like for you to teach full time and I
wonder if you can arrange to do so. I have not heard one word of
objection about you."
That was such a positive statement.
"Not one word of objection about you." I will
do the whistling." And they cheered. I enjoyed the work, and I
think the men did too.
So you taught that whole year.
Yes.
Full time the second semester.
Yes. When Dr. Newsome telephoned me and asked me if I would come in to
the teaching program, I said "It will depend upon the
situation. I'd like to know what rank and salary I will
have." He hummed and hawed and said "Well,
I'll have to work that out." I said "Well,
when you do work it out, please call me again and I'll give
you my answer." When he called again he said "Now what
was your rank when you left the Institute as a research
person." I said that I was an associate professor and he said
"Well, we've arranged for you to come in to our
program as an associate professor. And the salary will be the same as an
associate professor." And I said that under those circumstances
I would be glad to accept. A number of years later in the little
bulletin that the department of history publishes annually I was
— its about the graduate students and their publications and
the alumni — I was listed as Guion Griffis Johnson gave one
of the addresses at the meeting of the Mississippi Valley Historical
Association in Pittsburgh. She was formerly a lecturer
in history, in the department of history in the V12 program.
Now who was responsible for that?
The head of the history department. In the meantime Dr. Newsome had died,
and one of the men who had taken his doctorate the same year that I took
mine and whose dissertation did not win the award whereas mine had and
who had always been very competitive toward me downgraded my status from
associate professor to lecturer. I mentioned this only to indicate the
rigid attitude which has been maintained in most of the departments of
the University until within the last few years. Just recently . . . I
remember that Anne Scott asked Julia Spruill when
When was this?
I think it was probably in . . . soon after Anne came . . . in the 60s. You know Ann could not get a teaching position here and had to go to Duke in order to find a job. But fortunately Duke was more liberal.
The attitude at Duke was somewhat different, wasn't it?
Yes. Although their salaries were very low . . .
The salaries of women or the salaries of all professors.
A few highly selected professors received extraordinarily high incomes.
But the rank and file, even on the professorial level received poverty
level salaries. When we came from Atlanta back to the University, I
think I told you about going to Bob House about the history department.
Before we returned I was in New York for a meeting of the National
Public Relations Council of which I was Chairman of the Board and had
gone over to talk to Don Young who was a friend of ours and head of the
Russell Sage Foundation. And Don was saying "What are you going
to do when you get back to Chapel Hill?" And I said
"You tell me!" He said "If I were you,
I'd never put my foot in Chapel Hill again. Why
don't you go—there's a job opening at
Duke. And I'm going to telephone them right now, with your
permission, and say that you're on your way back to Atlanta
and I want you to stop off and have an interview for this job in the
department of sociology at Duke." I said
"Fine!" He called Dr. Jemen and Dr. Jemen said
"Oh, I would be so glad for Dr. Johnson to come. Yes,
we'd like very much to have her on the faculty. Ask her to
come by and see me on the way back to Atlanta." So I stopped in
Durham and had a very pleasant interview with Dr. Jenner . . . Jenson .
. . who was a very gentle person and quite involved in at least social
welfare matters in the state and he asked me to list what I had been
doing. When I told him I was president of the directors of social
welfare conferences in the country and chairman
That horrible figure comes back again.
$125 a month. I said "I just do not think . . . It would cost me transportation. And to get a good housekeeper whom I would want to have while I do my work over here. I do not think that it would justify my coming. So I'm sorry. I'm not interested."
But he presented it in such a way that you were . . . he agreed.
Yes. Now at the time they were looking for a dean of women to replace Dr.
Alice Baldwin. And he said "I think you'd be
excellent for that position. I'm going to take you over for
an interview with Dean Baldwin." We did go over for an
interview and it was — short dresses were just coming in.
They had been down almost to the ankles, and I had on a fashionable
short dress. And when I sat down my dress went up over my knees. And
Dean Baldwin said "Oh, my dear." And that was the end
of that.
Amazing. This was in 43?
No, 47.
After the war!
Yes, 1947.
Softened a bit . . .
Yes. Well, I think that perhaps the expression on my face when she showed
shock because my dress, my skirt had gone up over my knees . . . well,
that perhaps she was just a little old-fashioned. But certainly I was
not acceptable as dean
Had she retired by that point? When you . . .
No, she actually did not . . . she retired as dean of women but continued to teach in history. I think that she died just a few years after her retirement. She did not live long after her retirement.
When you came, you talked a little bit last week about the feeling when you talked to Conner and you talked to Chancellor House about a position and they said go out and make friends with women. When did all this start, this attitude toward Guy. Was it when you first came or after you'd been here for a while or was it just association with Howard Odum in the sociology department?
From the beginning, when Guy . . . Guy had written some articles for Social Forces on the Ku Klux Klan. I think that a few
people in the state became fearful of him at an early date.
This was right after he came?
Yes, right after we came. And before he received his doctorate, he had
collaborated with Dr. Odum on two books on Negro songs and his
dissertation was the musical talent of the Negro. All this got whispered
around on the board of trustees and in a small circle of Negro haters on
the board of trustees. Quite soon he was someone to be watched. At one
time he brought a Negro poet to the campus. And a rather unfortunate
situation arose. He [the poet] wrote for Contempo
which was a Communist sponsored newspaper which was being published in
Chapel Hill. The poet wrote a poem about Christ and the poem indicated
that Christ was black. The word spread very quickly about this black
Communist being brought by a member of the sociology department to speak
to the students. Guy had raised the money, had written a letter to
faculty members saying that he had an opportunity to bring Langston
Hughes to the campus and that he would like to pay him a small
honorarium. He got a ready response and was able to pay him a decent
honorarium. The word went out, because of this affiliation with Contempo, the Communist newspaper, and telegrams
flooded and there was a great demand that Guy be fired from the
campus.
One was as bad as the other.
Oh, yes. Of course Dr. Odum was always highly criticized because of his tolerance of the Negro and his favorable comments on the Negro and because he brought Negroes to the campus to speak. He was always suspect.
How long had he been here when you came?
We came in the fall of 1924. I think he came in 1921 or 22. He had not been here long.
And the Institute? He was just getting . . .
Just getting it in 1924. He had received funds.
So the Institute had just started.
Yes, we were the first members chosen. Guy and I and Katherine Jocher and one or two others.
So he had been brought as head of the sociology department?
Yes, by Dr. Harry W. Chase, who was then president of the University. He and Dr. Chase had received their doctor's degrees together at Clark University. So Dr. Chase was familiar, was a long standing friend of Dr. Odum's.
And Dr. Chase continued to be very supportive . . .
Oh yes. Dr. Chase was very supportive of Dr. Odum.
How long was he president?
He left for the presidency of New York University in the late 20s and Frank Graham was chosen as president of the university.
From what you said, he maintained this . . .
Oh, yes. Frank Graham was a liberal. He had finished the University here
and had gone to the London School of Economics and his indoctrination
into
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You said that Howard Odum was so very good at collecting money for projects that he wanted to do. Where was his support coming from?
Yes, he was. Largely from the foundations in the North. From Rockefeller Foundation, Carnegie Corporation. I do not know whether he had any Ford Foundation support or not. But the Rosenwald Fund also. Rosenwald was located in Chicago. Rosenwald helped him support the Institute.
Was Guy involved at all or were you involved in . . .
Fund raising? Only in that we were the ones usually assigned to go meet
visiting dignitaries in Raleigh or in Durham and bring them over. Dr.
Odum told us before we came up from Texas that we would need a car.
What was the feeling of other people on the faculty outside of the sociology department, about what was going on in the institute . . . Did it change over a long period of time?
Yes, it took a long time for the attitude of other departments to become
more liberal in their thinking and more appreciative of the pioneer work
which Dr. Odum was doing in the Institute. I remember going, in the 30s,
to a little party at the home of an education professor 1 1 Minor Gwyn. Dr. Gwyn was a tease and liked to needle even his
best friends. He may have been mocking some other faculty
member, but even so his remarks were significant.
And he was a professor here?
He was a professor. 1
2 At that time, he was a graduate assistant and we were research
assistants in the Institute for Research in Social Science.
What department was he in?
In French.
So it was in a lot of different departments.
Yes it was not only . . . and I think I mentioned when Jackie was here
the difficult time that the school of business administration gave Dr.
Odum. Dr. D. D. Carroll was perhaps one of his bitterest enemies. He
felt that sociology was going to antagonize the business industry of the
state and that the legislature, therefore, would not give the
appropriations to the university, that the university needed, and that
the department of sociology was really a detriment and
Was he here over a long period of time?
Yes, he was here over a long period of time and he was highly respected in the state. He was a Quaker, a very kind and generous man in every other area and I think he was genuinely afraid, for the reasons that I have stated. Nevertheless, Dr. Odum had put him on the board of the Institute from the beginning. Dean Carroll; he had only an AB degree. From the beginning Dr. Odum wanted a board for the Institute for Research in Social Science, and he wanted all the social sciences included and to have a part in the administration of the Institute. But actually, he got very little support from the other departments except in psychology.. Fred Dashiell head of the psychology department, was very cooperative. And in education, the education department was also cooperative. But the other departments were not did battle with him.
You said you [and Guy] were the first person from the history department . . . Did you remain the historian?
Yes, I did. Until, well, in the second year two other graduate students in history came on, two men. Fletcher Green and W. S. Jenkins. And the three of us received our doctorates at the same time.
So they were doing essentially the same thing you were doing.
They were doing . . . actually, Bill Jenkins, his dissertation was on pro-slavery thought, did an excellent job. His book has been reprinted since his death and is pertinent now. And Fletcher Green's was on revsing the state constitutions. I have forgotten the exact title of his dissertation—but the early movement to rewrite the constitutions in the antebellum period.
So it wasn't terribly terribly unusual after your first year . . .
To have an historian. No, no. These two . . . then Paul Wager in political science, although government and history were in the same department. Paul Wager was also in the Institute so I guess you can say there were four of us in history who were in the Institute—in the second year of the Institute.
Well, as far as support by the history department then, of the faculty. They were another department that did battle?
Yes, yes. They liked the idea of the Institute, but they were afraid of
Dr. Odum's leadership. And it was chiefly the Negro. You see
Bill Jenkins' dissertation was pro-slavery
thought.
Hamilton's ideas you've talked about. Hamilton was head and then Conner followed him, am I right?
Yes, Conner was head of the history department after Hamilton retired to become head of the—collector of the Southern Historical Collection. And Mr. Conner took over. I think that he received honorary doctorates, but he objected to being called Dr. Conner.
And then Newsome followed.
Followed Conner, yes.
So Mr. Conner was head when you were doing Antebellum North
Carolina.
No, he was just a professor and did not become head of the department until after he [Dr. Hamilton resigned.]. He went to the Archives in '34. I'm sorry, I'm not clear about that. I don't recall. To the National Archives, I think he went in 33 or 34.
At your suggestion for setting up . . .
Yes, yes, National Archives.
So who did you do most of your work under?
Dr. Conner. You see, he was a professor. Professor Conner, I forget and
call him Doctor. And I must say that I liked him very much because he
left me alone. He would say of my history that I was writing,
"I guess this is all right. But you"re not writing
history; you're writing sociology. But you're
documenting it all right. Since its documented I guess it's
history, but it's really sociology." And he said
"As you know, I don't know anything about
sociology." And I would say, "No one in this
department . . . " He would permit me to be very naughty and
talk back to him and that was one reason why I liked him.
I've always, ever since I was a child I've had a
reputation for being naughty and talking back to people. Much to the
Was he in the same period? In antebellum?
His chief interest was in colonial history, although his course in North Carolina history was a two semester course and he brought the history in the second course up to about the middle of the antebellum period. He spent most of the time on colonial, because that was his chief interest. The first course was from early colonial days until, hopefully, the revolution, but he never quite made the revolution. And then he picked up where he had left off and obviously could not get through the antebellum period.
Was he putting heavy emphasis on political history. This was mainly what was being done?
Oh yes. Political history . . . there was no such thing as social history. That's another field, said the historians. I think that the history department was shaken up and certainly the other—there were five or six of us who received doctorates (not that many, maybe there were four) — who received doctorates in history the year that I took my doctorate. And for my dissertation to win the Smith research award was shattering.
This was an award given by . . .
By the University. Well, the graduate school administered the awards and
there were awards in certain different fields. One in social science.
Mine received the award in social science. And then there was one in
language and this man who said he didn't like to associate
with people who were favorable toward the
Well, you mentioned very briefly and in a very tantalizing way I thought when Jackie was here about the Sea Island project and about Woofter and about his . . . Could you go into a little more detail about the story about that?
I don't really want to do that because it was most unfortunate and a pathetic aspect of a very fine mind. Well, the basic of the whole difficulty was that he was an alcoholic.
Well, where you lost us, you said that the project was started and that he was being hired at the university and then something had happened to put him out of favor.
Simply . . . well, since I have gone this far and said that he was an alcoholic, I will have to tell you that the incident was that he was leaving Atlanta—they had not moved to Chapel Hill—he was leaving Atlanta for a conference at Dartmouth College. He was driving, and on the way he was arrested in Danville, Va, because he was found drunk, asleep in his car on the city dump with the front wheels of his car extending over the abyss. So he was clapped in jail and the headlines were all over the papers of the South.
Oh, and this was right before he was to come to UNC.
Yes. So Dr. Odum scurried around and obtained a grant to study St Helena Island. He had always wanted to explore the situation. A bridge had just been built across Port Royal Island to Lady's Island leading to St Helena and this would open up this isolated area to more commerce.
Time was of the essence . . .
Yes. So on the basis that here were the Sea Island Negroes who were about
to be introduced to the big city of Beaufort and the wicked ways of
Beaufort, we must get down to St Helena and study their culture before
it is too late . . . He was able to get a grant from the National
Research Council for this research
And then Dr. Odum named Dr. Woofter . . . Am I correct in that name?
Woofter. Thomas Jackson Woofter, Jr.
And named him as director of the project, with you and Guy working.
Yes. And Clyde Kaiser, who later went to the Millbank Fund and has stayed there ever since as one of the directors of the Fund. And Clarence Heer from here who was in economics did a small part of the study. And that's about all.
So, what was the resolution of that? Did the project save Dr. Woofter as far as . . .
Yes, yes. I know th