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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0029-4, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Guion Griffis Johnson was a sociologist actively involved in race, poverty, and gender issues. In this interview—the final part of a four-part series—she discusses her work with the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare during the mid-1940s and her involvement in the civil rights movement and the women's movement of the 1960s and 1970s in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Johnson went to work as the executive secretary of the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare in Atlanta in 1944 when her husband, Guy B. Johnson, became the first director of the Southern Regional Council. She describes the condition of the Georgia Conference when she assumed control over it, noting the divisions on its board over public welfare versus private welfare. Johnson helped to get the Georgia Conference back on its feet by raising funds and promoting awareness of poverty-related social issues throughout Georgia. She discusses in detail her effort to establish a juvenile court in Albany, the interracial dynamics of the Georgia Conference, and the impact of the Eugene Talmadge political machine on the Conference's efforts. In addition, Johnson explains her thoughts on the merits of gradual change for race relations (advocated by her husband and the Southern Regional Council) and more direct action, which she pursued in establishing a child care center for African Americans in Chapel Hill. During the 1960s, Johnson was active in various women's organizations and was a forerunner in the work of the North Carolina Commission on the Status of Women. She describes her thoughts on the Equal Rights Amendment, her political connections and activities, and her thoughts on the student sit-in movement. Johnson concludes the interview by asserting her belief that it was time for black leadership to take a more dominant role in the civil rights movement by the 1960s.
Southern sociologist Guion Griffis Johnson describes her work with the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare during the 1940s and her involvement with the women's movement and civil rights activism during the 1960s and 1970s in North Carolina. She discusses strategies for effecting change, the achievements of the Georgia Conference in promoting awareness of social welfare and race-related issues, and the progress of women and African Americans in their struggle for equality.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
When we talked before, we got to right where you were going to Atlanta.
Oh yes.
So, I wanted to spend a little time talking about when you were there, if that's all right.
Yes.
You said that . . . I asked about your initial involvement with the Georgia Council, the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare. And you said that Mrs. Tilly came and . . .
Yes, Mrs. M.E. Tilly . . .
. . . and asked you to . . .
And asked me to take the job and I said that I would take it tentatively, to see how Edward adjusted, because he was uprooted from the school and from his friends here. We lived in a neighborhood of children about his age, and he was extremely happy here. And our yard was the playground for the neighborhood. Here he was isolated and didn't know any children his age and I didn't want the change to be too traumatic. I think that I told you that our older son, Benny, refused to go to Atlanta.
No, you didn't. How old was he then?
Benny was fifteen. He said, "I went to New York with you. I went to
Chicago with you . . . (when he was in the second grade) . . . I went to
New Haven with you. I went to New York with you, but I am not going
to
Well, you were saying that Benny stayed here and . . .
Yes, and went to school. And Edward and Guy and I went to Atlanta. Of
course, Guy went in January. I did not get to leave until August,
because I was teaching in the V-12 program and could not get released
until that time. Mrs. Tilly asked me about December if I would take this
position and it was not until February that I finally decided that I
would and on a half time basis. Again, to be able to give reinforcement
to Edward at home until he found some friends. And after about three
months, I found that he was well adjusted and then I worked full time.
And very much enjoyed the work. I edited the magazine for the
Conference, called Georgia Welfare, which was a small
magazine giving general information about the area of social welfare,
chiefly as it pertained to Georgia. I was able to get excellent writers.
The members wrote short essays for me and other leaders in national
welfare work [contributed]. So that I felt that it was rather
interesting. Then, we decided as a policy to go out into the communities
to explain the field of social welfare, in the cities and rural areas as
well. And to set up a series of meetings on community council
activities, how a community
How long had the program been set up before you came to work?
Well, the Conference, the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare, was an old organization. I don't recall just when it was organized, but it was in full swing when I arrived. I did not know at the time that I took the position that the convention the previous year had resulted in a fight between private welfare and public welfare.
I was going to ask you about that.
Yes, this was one of the chief problems with which I had to cope: The
conflict between private and public welfare. The organization had been
set up by private welfare and had been dominated by private welfare
agencies: Family Service Society, Child Welfare and the Red Cross and
all the other private welfare agencies, although, of course, Red Cross
is somewhat public related, and yet its funds are private and,
basically, Red Cross considered itself to be a private agency. But
during the thirties, when public welfare became established and money
began to pour into Georgia from the national agencies, public welfare
became stronger and stronger and yet the private welfare leaders would
not permit any public welfare [personnel] to have any office in the
Conference on Social Welfare. And the public welfare people had decided
to overwhelm the Conference and had done so and elected a public welfare
person, Lucille Wilson, as president of the Conference. Whereupon, the
executive secretary had resigned in protest. Stories had been splashed
across the head of the Atlanta Constitution and the
Journal and in all the other papers of the state.
It was almost a riot, the convention was. And this is the situation into
which I walked, without knowing anything about it.
You said that Miss Wilson came with Mrs. Tilly to ask you . . .
No. Well, she did later. Mrs. Tilly approached me alone first,
Now, what did they know about you?
Well, of course, they knew Guy, because Mrs. Tilly had been a leader in the race relations movement in Georgia for years.
You said that she had been doing a lot of the work that Jesse Daniel Ames . . .
Well, she had been working with Jesse Daniel Ames and she knew the southern women, because she held office in the Woman's Society of Christian Service of the Methodist Church. She held a state office and then a Southeastern Jurisdiction office. And, therefore, she set up many, many conferences through the South. She was the one who actually did the leg work for the old Woman's — I don't remember the official title of the group of women who organized for the prevention of lynching — Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching perhaps, but that name still doesn't seem quite right.
The Association of Southern Women for . . .
Yes, something like that. And she would . . . I have seen her sit down
with a stack of postal cards and her list of names when she would hear
of something that needed to be done, and send out hundreds of cards to
key women in the South. And she used her own funds. She and Mr. Tilly
had no children and he was very much in favor of all the work that Mrs.
Tilly was doing. And they used their own funds for telephone calls when
a threat of lynching occurred. Mrs. Tilly was a sweet little southern
woman with a soft voice, small features, and she dressed like a belle.
In fact, she said to me that she disapproved of my severe clothes, my
tailored clothes, She said, "When you go out to do battle, you must
dress for the occasion." So, she wore frilly hats with flowers and lace
on them and frilly dresses and always with white gloves, and she was
accepted by the sheriffs and the commissioners and
What was his position, Mr. Tilly?
I think he was in insurance. I'm not quite sure about this, but I think that he was in insurance.
Was she from an old southern family?
Yes, her father was a Methodist minister. And it was from his teachings and her readings of the Methodist literature that she became a liberal. I went, as part of my chore on the Myrdal study, I went through all the early records of the Protestant demoninations at the office of the National Council of Churches in New York, to determine the policy statements on social issues. And I came out of that research convinced that the Methodist Church had the most liberal philosophy of any of the churches. Their Book of Discipline, which is the Bible for the Methodist Church,[is] extremely liberal. The Congregational Christian Church was the only one that came closest to . . . and it was for that reason that Guy and I came back from New York determined to break our affiliation with the Baptist Church and join the Methodist Church.
I see, so you were not brought up a Methodist?
No, I was brought up a Baptist. Although my grandfather had helped establish both a Baptist Church and a Methodist Church, one on one corner and the other on the next in the little town where I was born, Wolfe City, Texas. And my grandfather attended both the Methodist and the Baptist Church. But he was a deacon in the Baptist Church and so I always considered myself a Baptist.
Was Guy a Baptist?
Yes.
But the interpretation of the Book of Discipline in the South at that time wasn't always . . .
Oh yes, this was the conflict that we had in Georgia.
I also
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
. . . leaders in social welfare, mostly professionals. Mrs. Tilly was the only non-professional member on the Board. And the private welfare people dominated . . .
Although by this time public welfare people were on there as well?
Yes. At least they had the presidency. And I asked Miss Wilson to call a
meeting and said, "May I get out the notices?" and "May I telephone the
Board members?" Most of them lived in Atlanta, but some were outside.
And she agreed, we set the time, called a meeting and I said, "I have
been going through the files and I see that there was a controversy. I
stopped reading the files because I wanted to hear from you as to the
nature of the controversy. I was confused as to the nature of it and I
would like for you to tell me what the trouble is." I did not get any
information from the Board members. They engaged in a great deal of
double talk. And finally they said, "We will support you in anything
that you want to do. You will have a free hand to operate this office in
the way that you think
How did the legislature fit into this? Were you involved in getting funds?
The legislature was not at all involved.
It was federal money?
Federal money being used for public welfare. The Georgia Conference on Social Welfare was itself a private agency, you see, supported by contributions from the members and by donations from industry. So that one of my chores was to raise the budget, but since I had some past experience in money raising, it was not any great problem to me. I involved the members of the Board in helping.
But you were going primarily to private agencies to get the money?
I wrote to the members and asked the members to pay their membership fees
and to make an additional contribution, if they found it possible to do
so. And then I telephoned prominent businessmen, like Dick Rich and Hal
Dumas of Southern Bell and various liberal-minded businessmen and
industrialist, bankers, and went to see them and asked for
contributions. Mrs. McGeachin from the big life insurance company (I
have forgotten the name of it. It was founded basically for blacks, but
it was white owned) gave me the . . . (Next to the North Carolina Mutual
Life Insurance Company, it was the largest life insurance company in the
country which sold life insurance to blacks and)
Now, what was her position?
She was chairman of the board of the insurance company.
Is she still around?
No, she was elderly at that time and I think that she died a year or two afterwards. I picked up the telephone to call Mr. Dumas, who was one of the leaders in shaping politics in Georgia, and I dialed his number and he answered his telephone and I said, "Could I speak to Mr. Dumas?" and he said, "This is Hal Dumas speaking." I said, "What are you doing answering your own telephone? An important person like you ought to have a secretary answering." He said, "Who are you?" I told him who I was and I said, "I want to come to see you. When may I do so?" He said, "Anybody who can talk to me like that can come to see me this minute." So, I went to see him immediately. His office was just around the corner from our office on Pryor Street and we had a wonderful little visit. He knew Bill Prince,1 who was the illustrator in Chapel Hill, he had known Bill and Lillian Prince for quite well, and was delighted that we knew so many people here in Chapel Hill [with whom he was acquainted.]And he said, "All right, as long as you are the head of the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare, I will give you five hundred dollars a year." So, I found it extremely easy to raise the funds, because, as he said, "We get a bad reputation outside of Georgia, but all of us are as concerned for the welfare of the little people as you are. The only thing is that I don't want somebody coming after me with a meat cleaver telling me that I have to be tender toward Negroes and labor."
Now, was the Board interracial, was the membership interracial?
The Board was not interracial until '47. I asked that it be
And had been?
Yes, and had been long before I arrived. Yes. Because the social workers and health people were all rather liberal in Georgia.
And were they going to liberal organizations as well as . . .
Yes, yes, they were.
I mean, well, Dumas and Rich, they . . .
They were members of the planning council, the Social Planning Council, which had been organized for quite sometime before we arrived in Atlanta. It was the great liberalizing force. Mrs. Tilly often said to me, "We could not do in Georgia the things that we are doing, if it had not been for the Social Planning Council." She said," I have sat on the board of the Social Planning Council and I have seen men like Hal Dumas and Dick Rich and Mr. Black from Citizens Southern Bank come in saying that no poor person deserved anything. That he was poor because he didn't have the guts to go out and work. He was lazy and he was poor because he was lazy. And I have seen in a year's time the discussions on that board and these men changing their attitudes. No one forced them to change, but facts were brought out which led them gradually to see the reasons for poverty."
And this was the first year that you were sitting on the Board that you saw this change?
Yes, she said, "In one year's time, I saw this change in men who had been considered to be extremely conservative and anti-welfare."
Now, what were the facts and who was bringing them?
The Board was usually, now this was the Social Planning Council I'm
talking about, the Board was usually composed of eighteen or twenty
This was the Atlanta community, or statewide?
No, this was the Atlanta community. And the rest of the members of the Board were social workers and then they had various established committies, housing and . . .
Now, is this where you worked with the roads, the expressways, Grady Hospital?
Yes, it was through the Social Planning Council.
But this was separate and distinct from . . .
Yes, from the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare. It was only when I was recognized as the director of a private welfare agency . . .
That you [were] asked to sit on the Board . . .
That I was then accepted by all the agencies and was put on boards. We also joined the St. Mark's Methodist Church, which was a very prominent one in Atlanta and I taught the large Sunday School Class, two hundred and fifty women. I did not want to teach this large Sunday School Class. I wanted to teach the high school children, whom I had been teaching in Chapel Hill. And Dr. Lester Rumble, who was pastor of the church at the time, said, "You can't afford not to make this change. Because these are the wives of the men who make the decisions for Georgia. You will have an approach to them that you could never get otherwise. You have to teach this class." And I found that he was right.
Now, was Dr. Rumble on a lot of these . . .
Not at any time, not while we were there.
But he was just saying this to you as advice?
As advice. Because, after all, he knew Georgia and he knew what Guy's
work was and my work and he felt that this would be extremely
Now, what facts were coming . . .
As the chairmen of committies on housing, poverty in general and health would make their reports, they would point out the needs in the community. Unpaved streets within a block of the capitol, which was a slum area of the black population. The location of Negro families scattered in the core sections of the city, where the old families . . . in Ansley Park for example, on Fifth Street . . . all the old families have moved from Fifth, but at that time, there were still Negro cabins in the backyards.
Right behind St. Mark's Methodist Church.
Yes. That's right. Most of these men were not aware of this. Most of them lived out in Buckhead, which was the fashionable suburb of Atlanta at the time. And they were not aware. If they were aware of the unpaved streets and the tumbledown shacks within a block of the capitol, they looked the other way. This had nothing to do with them. But when it was pointed out that a great deal of delinquency came from that area and a great deal of disease came from that area and was carried out into the larger community, then they became concerned.
Well, they weren't two-faced, were they?
No, I don't think that they were. I think that they were simply unaware. Of course, I think that much of their pious remarks were made with tongue in cheek. I think that was true, but, no, I think that they became genuinely aware.
Well, from the rest of your work in the rest of Georgia, was this group in Atlanta that was available and willing to listen and change their minds, were they different from other cities in Georgia?
Of course, I did not know Savannah, or Augusta, or Albany, or Columbus,
or Thomasville as well as I did Atlanta, but we took a group of . . .
At that time, your major aim was to get community councils set up.
Johnson: Or at least bring the attentions of a large group of people in
the large towns to an awareness of the needs of the entire community for
the general welfare, for working together to solve the problems. That
was the main purpose, and if we didn't establish community councils . .
. as a matter of fact, we didn't establish even one community council,
but we were using this as a reason for having conferences and as a mode
for the solution of the problem. You see, once you call attention to the
needs of a community, you must point out several different ways that
these needs could be met. So,modus operandi.
Well, did they know that you had an interracial Board?
I think that most everywhere that we met . . . the first year that we met, we had our conference in Savannah, and Savannah is very conservative, much more so than Augusta, even. There was no objection. We met in the large hotel, the DeSoto Hotel I believe it was, in Savannah and the blacks came and there was no word of objection. We met the next time in . . .
Now, this was in '46?
My first big annual meeting was in '45, then '46, '47. There was no
problem in '45, no problem in '46, but in '47, [Eugene] Talmadge was
running for governor. The meeting was to be held in Atlanta and I had
booked the Biltmore and talked to the manager and made all the
arrangements. Two weeks before the conference, ten manager called me
(Mr. Byrd, called me) and said, "I'm sorry to tell you that you can't
have your conference here. If you do have your conference here, you will
have to tell your black members that they cannot attend." I said, "I do
not think that this would be acceptable to the Board or to the
membership. However, I will consult with the Board and telephone you
promptly." I polled the Board by telephone and they said, "Of course we
will not. We will just call the conference off and not have it this
year. We know that the Talmadge political gang is stirring up the
emotions against the blacks, so we think that perhaps it would be better
not to have a conference." I said, "Well, you let me see what I can do,
because we already have our speakers lined up. They are coming from all
over the country and I would dislike very much to have to call [such a
leader as] Leonard Mayo and tell him that he can't come and speak. Let
me see if I can find another place in Atlanta." We explored every place
that would be large enough to accomodate about a thousand participants,
because it was a large convention.
They gave that as a reason?
Yes. "We can't afford to. No, I'm sorry, we can't afford to." Then I went to the pastor of my own church. We had ample room to accomodate the group discussions and the attendance in the auditorium (in the sanctuary). And I told him exactly what the situation was and I said, "What is your thinking?" He said, "I, as the pastor of this church, am the sole authority for the use of the building and I say that you may have it." I said, "I do not want to embarrass you. I would like for you to get the Board of Stewards to accept. Do you want me to come and speak to the Board of Stewards and explain the situation to them?" He said, "No, you let me handle it. I'll talk to various key members on the Board and I think that it will be all right." And I said, "How long must I wait?" He said, "Well, we're meeting in three more days and I'll let you know." They said, "Certainly. She's the teacher of the Richardson Bible Class. We cannot deny the teacher of the Richardson Bible Class the use of our facilities. Certainly. And we will provide them luncheon, too."2
Well, was the church protected because business interests weren't as important as for a hotel? How did the Talmadge group work?
By pressure.
I mean, what would they have done if you had met at the Biltmore?
Well, you can't meet in the Biltmore if the management says you can't.
I know, but say the management had, what would have been the result?
Pressure would probably have been brought upon the manager and he would have lost his job. It was that simple. And probably no threat had to be made. He knew that this would be the result.
Well, were things that bad all over at that time, I mean, was the Southern Regional Council having a lot of trouble during that period, during that campaign when Talmadge was on the rampage or whatever?
There were those who thought that the Southern Regional Council was having a great deal of trouble. I do not think that anyone on the staff felt that it was a bad situation except Mrs. Tilly. The group moved in, rented the offices just across the hall from . . . The Southern Regional Council had one entire wing of Wesley Memorial Church and there was an area across the hall that was available for renting, and it was rented under . . . I have forgotten the name of the organization, but something innocuous. But Mrs. Tilly, being suspicious, having worked with sheriffs and boards of county commissioners,had known the intricacies of Georgia politics and as the equipment was moving in, she examined the boxes and found Talmadge's name stamped on some of the boxes, and the Klu Klux Klan name stamped on some of the boxes, so that she immediately decided that this group, small group, had been sent in to spy on the Southern Regional Council and to try to get something on them. But nothing came of it. In fact, Guy didn't feel any pressure at all. [at least, he expressed no anxiety.]
Well, the people you were working with, were they in the same line politically as the people who were in the Southern Regional Council?
Some were and some were not.
You had a wider spectrum?
Yes. One of the men3 in public welfare
who was head of the state correctional home for boys at Milledgeville,
Georgia, was very much allied with the Talmadge group and might even
have been in the Klu Klux Klan. He took me to (because this was the time
of gasoline rationing, he took me when we had) our conference in Macon
on community planning. He came up from Millegeville to pick me up to
take me to Macon for our session.
Well, were there any people more to the left than you on the . . .
Yes, the treasurer of the Conference was elected in '46 and was, we learned later . . . well, he was not a card carrying member. His wife was a card carrying member of the Communist Party and was a leader in the Communist Party. But he never demonstrated in any of our meetings, nor in any of his behavior that he was a CP. You know, there were some members who were permitted to be members without carrying a card and so, he was in this high category.
Do you remember his name?
Yes, I remember quite well, Floyd Hunter, who later ran on the Progressive ticket against Russell for the United States Senate, and that was when we were quite sure, [about his affiliations] but in the meantime . . .
But you didn't know when he was on the Board that he was?
I was a little suspicious, because sometimes he would come up . . . his
office was . . . he was the director of the Social Planning Council and
he would come up (his office was on second floor and mine was on third)
and
So, you knew him again here?
I knew him. Before he came, I had a telephone call from him in Atlanta. He said, "I have been admitted to the graduate school for a degree in Sociology. Do you have any objection to my coming?"
So, he knew that you knew?
Yes. I said, "Floyd, why would I have any objections to your coming?" And he said, "Well, I'm not coming if you oppose it." I said, "Of course, I'm not going to oppose your coming. You've been admitted by the Graduate School. The Graduate School is the only agency in this university who can stop a person from coming. After all, you must remember that this is the United States of America." He came.
Was he still active when he was here?
I think so. I do not know [as a matter of Fact.] We studiously avoided him, so that I was not aware of his activities. But he was supported by the head of the Sociology Department, who had worked with him in a study of health and welfare conditons in Atlanta. And I do not know whether Gordon Blackwell was aware of his associations in Atlanta or not. I rather expect that he was not aware.
Gordon Blackwell was then head of . . .
Head of the Sociology Department and our neighbor. The only information that I had about his activities [in Chapel Hill] came through the Blackwells and of course, Guy was still on the faculty of the Sociology Department, although Floyd did not take any of Guy's work.
Well, we talked a little bit last time about . . .
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Do you want to go on and talk about the Georgia Conference?
Very briefly, I would like to say that permission from the Board of the Council to participate in any community activities that I wanted, that they would consider this to be a part of my routine work, because they felt that by my participating in a great many community activities, I spread the news of the needs of health and welfare in the state. So, I was active in the local council of churches and the Churchwomen United. And in the state council, I went with Mrs. Tilly to set up a series of conferences on social and economic needs throughout the state. And we would take a panel of say, three or four, and visit many places in Georgia.
Now, would you take social workers.
Yes, it would be social workers, economists, professors from Emory. And we would have a panel, and these meetings would usually be held in Methodist Churches, because that was her contact, her entreé. And she would call district meetings of the Woman's Society of Christian Service and these panelists would speak. We would always have some Negro in the group, so that it was bi-racial; and we had no difficulty at all until we arrived in Gainesville, and the pastor of the church, when he saw the panel come in and saw Frankie Adams, who was a social worker in the [Futton County] Department of Public Welfare, went to Mrs. Tilly and said, "You cannot have your meeting here."
Did you leave?
No, Mrs. Tilly said, "My meeting has been scheduled. The Woman's Society
is being called and is coming in from the district. Some of them are
bringing black members with them." In nearly all of these meetings, the
congregation was interracial. "They are bringing black members with them
and I would not embarrass them by telling them that we could not have
the
Meaning the Methodist Church at large.
Right. Then Mrs. Tilly got a copy of the Discipline and found the section that says that the Church is to serve all mankind, both black and white, and encourages local churches to invite black members to their workshops. And we began this meeting with a preliminary statement made by Mrs. Tilly, and there was by that time a rather good audience that had assembled and there were five or six black persons in the group . . .
Now, were these members of local churches?4
Yes, members of local churches.
How did that happen, was it common?
As long as Mrs. Tilly had anything to do with it, all her meetings were bi-racial.
But I mean on the local level, these people . . .
She encouraged members. She visited practically every Methodist Church in the state of Georgia and encouraged spreading the Gospel, this was Home Mission, "You must communicate with the black members."[in the Methodist church].
Now, what was her title?
At this time, she was simply Southeastern [Jurisdictional] Chairman of Christian Social Relations. That was the only title that she had, as far as I know, although she had various [other] responsibilities.
But she was on the Board of the Georgia Conference?
Yes. She was on the Board of the Georgia Conference. And I read from the
Discipline, after she had made her introductory remarks, saying "This is
a meeting sanctioned by the Methodist Church. And I am going to ask Dr.
Johnson to read from the Discipline, which gives us the sanction to hold
this meeting." The pastor of the church was fuming on the front seat.
She said, "After Dr. Johnson has read from the Discipline, I'm going to ask the very fine pastor of this wonderful church to
lead us in prayer."
What could they do, they were absolutely over a barrel.
We held our meeting, and it was a very good meeting. Excellent participation and we were talking about social and economic issues facing the United States with special reference to Georgia. We had a man from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. There was usually one who came along with us from the U.S. Bureau of Labor, with the regional office in Atlanta. And he could cite chapter and verse and make it very interesting, to show the needs in Georgia. This we did. Then Mrs. Tilly was instrumental in getting a conference on rural health organized in Georgia. We had a big conference in, the First Methodist, I believe, in Atlanta. Very well attended by many people throughout the state, and we organized the Georgia Rural Health Conference and I was made the executive secretary of the Conference. So the work was administered from our office, and we helped with getting through the legislation, getting through the matching funds for Hill-Burton. It was the implementation of the Hill-Burton Act. And in that connection, we conferred with Governor Ellis Arnold as to the best techniques to be used, and he suggested. He said, "I guarantee you that if you get groups of people coming here to the public hearings when the debate occurs on the floor, if you will fill the galleries with people from all over the state, you will get matching funds passed." Then he turned to some of the committee members and said, "How many times did you come here to public hearings to get good roads?" And one of them said, "A hundred at least." He said, "All right, come a hundred times for your rural health program and I guarantee you that you will get it passed." The first session of the legislature, he got the matching funds established. I also wrote the publicity in behalf of the bill, because I was trained in journalism too, so I handled that very easily. All this went out of my office.
Then, Albany turned to me for help in setting up a juvenile court.
Who in Albany came . . .
The Director of the Department of Public Welfare, the county director and
her board supporting her. First, I went to talk to her board. They had a
board meeting to get their support in behalf of a juvenile court. Then,
the pastor of the Presbyterian Church, who was a very popular man in
Albany, and the editor of the newspaper [Mr. McIntosh], who was also
greatly beloved. We got their assistance and got the minister to chair
the meeting to establish it. The city fathers and the county board of
commissioners said that it was against the law to establish the juvenile
court, that if Albany wanted, if the county wanted, a special juvenile
court, a special act of the legislature would have to be passed in order
to get the court set up and that that would take two years. This was in
the winter of '47. I said, "I doubt seriously that this is true, but I
will check with the attorney general and find out." Eugene Cook was the
attorney general at that time and although he was thought to be a strong
Talmadge man, I felt that he would be honest with me in interpreting the
law. I went to see him and talked over the situation and he said, "There
is no reason at all. There is no law that prevents Albany from having a
juvenile court if Albany wants a juvenile court. All they have to do is
to finance it, appropriate the funds and set up the machinery." I said,
"Well, will you write out an opinion on this for me so that I could have
it to read in Albany?" "Yes,"he said, he would, and he wrote me a very
fine statement. I said, "Will you talk to anyone by telephone if you are
telephoned? Because I have been told that the superior court judge had
talked to you and you had said that it was against the law." He said,
"Oh no, that's not true." I said, "If he calls you, will you talk to him
and tell him what you have told me?" "Yes," he said, "I will." So, we
had a large community meeting in
That's incredible.
So, we ended with the approval of a juvenile court.
It was established.
Yes.
Was it the first one?
No, Macon had a juvenile court and I had been asked to come
Now, were most of the children who were repeaters black?
Most of them were, yes. There were always of course, some whites, because
there were more whites in the population than blacks. But the situation
arose whereby the policemen on the beat, on the corner near my office
building would bring delinquent girls or boys up to me and say, "Now Dr.
Johnson, I want you to do something with this girl." And I would usually
have a conference with her and then call one of the private agencies,
either Family Service or Child Welfare or if they would not be able to
do anything or want to do anything for the child, then I would call the
Social Service Index, which had an index of all the resources in the
community, and by working with the director, we would make some referal.
Of course, this was not my responsibility, I should not have done any of
this, because the professional social workers would have said that I was
exceeding my jurisdiction, [and] this was bad social work. But I wanted
to do something for
Was this again a power thing so that they could keep control?
Yes. I think so. Well, I think that is all that I will want to say about what was extremely interesting work, and I enjoyed it very much.
Well, did you feel like you were treading a thin line between what you could get through and . . . the interracial aspects of it just really amaze me, that that much was possible at that time.
Oh yes, it was. I have often said, and then the idea was formed in my
mind when I was doing research for Racial Ideology and
then it was confirmed by actual experience on the line in Atlanta, that
in the United States, we were basically far more liberal than our
practice and laws indicated. [In] the basic philosophy of the rights of
man, and the Declaration of Independence, we were committed in founding
our nation to the respect of the individual and the enhancement of the
possibilities of the individual. So here was this basic [political]
philosophy, and the churches reinforce this philosophy. But the power
structure, to use Floyd Hunter's words, the power structure was
constantly intervening, because they felt some threat. The threat of
labor [for example]. If low income people demanded more wages, then the
profits for industry would be less, and all of this [fear] went into
formulating the attitude of the upper classes for the lower classes. I
said that it was failure of leadership at the top, that if the leaders
had been liberal and honest and fair, that the little man who votes
would have gone along and accepted it, because it was part of their
basic philosophy of the
Well, maybe one reason that Atlanta has a fairly good record as far as civil rights is concerned, is because they were blessed with good leaders, more than the rest of the state.
I think that this is true. Yes, I think that.
Not that they have such a perfect record, but a tolerable record.
I Found it so easy to get very liberal programs through. For example, in Albany. Here was this man who had come to break up the meeting and to see to it that no juvenile court was organized in Albany, completely about-facing when attention was called to him. He was praised and called a Christian. Completely about-facing.
Are these the tactics that Mrs. Tilly excelled in?
Oh yes. Yes indeed. She taught me a great deal.
What did she do?
She, in the last year that we were there, I don't recall if it was the
winter of 1947, or the fall of 1946, she came to me and said, "Now, I no
longer have any funds from the Southeastern Jurisdiction of the
Methodist Church to carry on my work." And she said, "I've used all of
Mr. Tilly's funds." She never referred to him by any other term except
"Mr. Tilly," which was the proper southern way. No woman ever referred
to her husband by his proper name, it was always "Mr. Tilly," or"Mr.
So-and-So." So, she said, "I cannot ask Mr. Tilly to help me anymore.
He's getting old. He's retired and our retirement income is limited and
I simply cannot ask him to finance my activities anymore. I want to be
on the staff of the Southern Regional Council. Won't you ask Guy? He
needs a woman [on the staff] and since you are not going to serve in
that capacity, won't you ask him to employ me? And I will work for very
little. All I want is just a little money and the privilege of carrying
on the work that I have been doing for so many years." So, I talked to
Guy about it. And Guy said, "Well, I'll think about it. I'll
When did she die?
She died about two years ago. And in the meantime, had had a very serious fall and her health was really very delicate, although she was an amazing person who pushed herself on and on. But she fell and had a very serious hip injury from which she made herself recover enough to walk in a shamble and very, very slowly. And the last time that I saw her was in Atlanta at a Southern Regional Council conference and she was just barely moving along.
But she did . . .
Continue on the staff. Perhaps she resigned the last few months of her life, I've never asked.
Was she very old?
Yes, she was in her eighties. She was probably eighty-five or eighty-six.
Well, that is old.
Yes.
Well, one other question about her work. Now, she had started her work on the Commission for Interracial Cooperation?
Yes. She probably had been on the Board, I'm not sure of that.
And then worked for Association of Southern Women, under Jessie Daniel Ames?
Yes. And as I said, did the leg work for that organization and was the
one who made the contacts. Because, Mrs. Ames had a very limited
contact. She worked chiefly in Atlanta and had a very limited contact
with the [numerous] leaders in the South. She probably knew the men
better than she did the women. And if she had a conference of women, it
was usually women
I see. Well, the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching was not an interracial group, as I understand.
No, that's true. It was white women, because it was felt that the problem was with the whites and the whites had the power to prevent a lynching, whereas the blacks did not.
Right. But Mrs. Tilly, the majority of her work was interracial, then.
Yes.
I mean, she followed the CIC on through and then this work she was doing in welfare with you was interracial.
Yes, this is true. Although always she was aware that she could not succeed if the committees she was working with or the groups she was talking to, or the panels that she took to talk to groups of people in Georgia or elsewhere were predominantly Negro. It had to be predominantly white with a token black, or maybe two blacks.
What was her relationship with the black women she was dealing with?
With the black leaders, very good. She worked with Mrs. Martin Luther King, Sr., she worked with the director of the Harriet Tubman branch of the Y. Always, you had a very able black woman who was director of what was called "the Negro group" of the Y, which was located in the Negro community . . . with the social workers, Frankie Adams, for example, in social work. She knew all of the key black women in Atlanta and in Georgia and elsewhere in the South.
And this was the same group of black women that you were mainly in contact with?
Yes.
And was this the same group that the Southern Regional Council worked with?
Yes, for the most part. Yes, this is true.
Well, there was real opposition to the kinds of things that Guy was doing?
Oh yes.
You talked about going to Glenn Memorial and speaking there and . . .
Oh yes, this is true. There was strong opposition. Or Eugene Talmadge would not have been elected governor.
Right. Well, how did it fit together, the opposition and the people who were allied?
I asked a leading social worker in Savannah why it was that most of the influential people in Savannah were supporting Talmadge instead of Carmichael for governor? She said, "I'm going to support Talmadge." I said, "You are? Why?" "For the same reasons that the members of my Board are supporting Talmadge."
Her Board in Savannah?
Yes, her Board in Savannah. She was director of the Department of Public
Welfare. She said, "Because we think that economic stability will be
maintained in Georgia if Talmadge is elected rather than Carmichael. We
do not think that Carmichael has the backing of the Southern Bell
Telephone Company, the Trust Company of Georgia, the railroad, all the
big economic interests, the mills". (although, you know, I think that
Carmichael was a mill owner. I know that Ellis Arnold was a lawyer for
the mill in Newnan.). "And that is the reason. We think that it is
important for Georgia to be maintained strong economically and we think
that we can suffer through a Talmadge regime without the threat of an
economic depression. Remember, the war is over and we don't know what is
going to happen after the war is over. We may have an economic collapse.
And we do not think under Talmadge it will, and after all, Talmadge is a
charitable man. He is a leader in his church. He is a humanitarian. He
is not a wicked man. This is only a political tactic that he is using to
get in. He doesn't hate Negroes. He has paid for the college
Was his reason economic stability?
Yes.
Now, where did you fit politically? Were you involved in politics? Could you afford to be?
I could not afford to be, and was not very much . . . I would go to small group meetings, closed meetings, and say, "I'm doing this not as Director of the Georgia Conference on Social Welfare, but as Guion Johnson, very much interested in a liberal regime in Georgia and I will give you the names of key leaders and I will help you in that way . . . "
For Carmichael?
Yes, for Carmichael. And I soon found that I knew more key leaders than
the top management in the Carmichael campaign. "I will give you names of
key leaders, but I cannot have any publicity." Then, I opened the Atlanta Constitution [one morning] and saw a full page
ad with names, oh, at least it looked like a thousand names endorsing
Carmichael, and here was my name in the group. And I had not been asked
permission for my name to be used, and I was very much distraught,
because I did not know what my Board would do. We were not supposed to
engage in politics. I could promote social and economic issues for the
health and welfare of the state, but I could not participate in any
political activity. I did not have one word, none of them said
anything.
Were they supporting him also?
I doubt it. I would guess that most members of my Board were supporting Talmadge. A few spoke outright in his behalf, in Carmichael's behalf, but most of them . . .
Was Carmichael a real liberal?
Probably not. He was not an Ellis Arnold liberal, but he had been chosen by Ellis Arnold to succeed him as the most liberal of the potential candidates. He had very little political experience, I think. That's my recollection.
Now, when Arnold was in, did you have anything to do with him other than . . .
The rural health, that was the only . . .
The only time that you were . . .
The only time I participated. As a matter of fact, the Director of the
State Department of Public Welfare asked me to come to see him once and
said, "Now, we put you in here in this job and remember, we don't want
you to meddle in politics." And he was taping the interview we had, and
I was not at all aware or suspicious of taping at that time, but he
moved his microphone over near me. He didn't know that my voice was so
strong that it would carry.
I wanted to ask about the Southern Regional Council, what kinds of woman's work was going on. Mrs. Tilly said that they needed a woman, was she the only one?
Actually, there was not any program aimed directly at women. Guy had
employed, at the suggestion of Josephine Wilkins, Margaret Fisher, who
had been working in some kind of war program and wanted to get out of
that work and into an area dealing more directly with economic and
social issues. And he thought that she would conduct women's activities.
We knew immediately that when Mrs. Ames was so distraught, thinking that
I was going to take her job, that it would be extremely unwise for me to
have anything to do with the work, and that this would just add,
complicate any problem that Guy might have. So, I stayed away, almost
never went to the office. But Margaret Fisher was not interested in
directing any concentrated program for women, and there
Now, you didn't, or did you, directly support the work of the Southern Regional Council in you own work?
No, I . . .
How did you support . . .
Just by it being known that I was Guy's wife. That was the only way. I did not want to be put in the position of or jeapordize my own usefulness by promoting the Southern Regional Council. I felt that my best way, the best way to promote the Southern Regional Council was to demonstrate my own humanity and care for people and concern for the welfare for all mankind and to let my personal integrity and concern show, rather than by mentioning the Southern Regional Council as an organization that you ought to support. No, mine was entirely an indirect support and then I learned a great many things about the power structure throughout the state, which I would pass on to Guy, which gave him insight into situations. And would know who was undermining the program, who would counter attack. In this way, I was useful.
Do you think you filled some of the void for not having . . .
Oh, I don't think that I made any contribution at all to the Southern
Regional Council.5 I can't claim having
made any contribution at all. It was very indirect. I would hope that I
was able to establish some goodwill for the group through the many
personal friendships that I formed, andSouthern Regional Council!" Then,
someone would come to my defense, you see. "Well, her husband must not
be all bad."6
That was the feeling about the Southern Regional Council?
Yes, the fear was that the Southern Regional Council was endorsing integration, was fighting separation of the races. They opposed the separation of the races and they the Council wanted to break down all barriers and wanted the blacks to come into the schools and go into the lunchrooms and all that sort of thing. And of course, there was a great deal of fear about this. And it was on these fears that get Talmadge's political machine operated.
Was that a widespread goal of theirs at the time?
Of the Southern Regional Council? Oh no. The Board had not, endorsed
desegration oh no. Some of the biggest fights that the Board had were on
this issue. I remember well so much, maybe at the second annual meeting
of the Southern Regional Council, (I did attend those annual meetings,)
that Dr. Benjamin Mays, was involved in this fight over a statement. A
group of blacks and a small group of whites wanted the Southern Regional
Council to adopt a policy which pointed to segregation as a social evil.
And a hot controversy, arose and Dr. Mays had been very
conservative on many policies, but he stood up . . . he
So, they had Mays support.
Yes. Well, when Dr. Mays made the crucial statement that he could not support any kind of organization that endorsed segregation, see, this is the way that he stated it, so the whole statement about segregation as an evil . . .
It wasn't a matter of having him endorse desegregation?
No, no, they did not endorse desegregation. And I do not think that the Southern Regional Council took any very positive stand on segregation or desegregation until 1954. I may be wrong, but this is my recollection, that they did not openly endorse [desegregation], although many research reports were made pointing to the penalty which the South paid because of its maintenance of segregation . . .
Of the dual system?
Yes.
Was Guy's feeling one of waiting? I read his article in Common Ground answering Lillian Smith, was his one of
waiting?
Gradualism. His philosophy at that time was one of gradualism. That you
cannot force the change upon an unwilling people. That it must be by
enlightenment and education, that you gradually get a change and any
change that comes gradually rather than quickly or dramatically is the
change that is lasting. That has been his position. I have not always
agreed with him on the philosophy of gradualism. I think there comes a
time when some dramatic change must be made. And my own experiences
haveYou will not oppose
me." And we got the program started.
Could she at that point have opposed you?
She could have tried to use her influence in the community and she had a great deal of influence. Her husband was a very prominent lawyer, a member of the law faculty. He was highly respected and greatly beloved and she would have had a great deal. [of influence] She was a member of the power structure.
And did the child care center go through?
Yes, I got it [the initiating procedures] going and then had to go off to
Atlanta. But others carried through on it, but at least I got the forces
going. And with Bob Maddry, the mayor backing me, I knew that it would
go through. He said that he would support me and [I should] he would
carry through and just go on and teach history in the University and he
said that he would carry through. He said, "I'll do it, I don't want her
to try to chop your head off anymore." But, we got it going. So, that's
the reason that I have disagreed with Guy. I think that sometimes, there
must be . . . if I had
It was the Home Days Nursery that we established and it is still . . .
And it was a private . . .
Well, yes, without . . .
With these funds, though . . .
Well, except for a token contribution. I think that the town just supplied the building where the nursery was set up and then the federal monies were used to employ the staff. I know that when we left for Atlanta, I sent over a ton of toys for the program. All of the children's toys were sent . . . both Benny and Edward denouced me. "You gave my favorite electric train to that old day care center." But since then, it has been supported by the Community Chest. We were organizing the Community Council and Community Chest when I came back. It was one of the first agencies included because of the federal funds no longer being available. This was in '47 and '48 and it came into the Community Chest.
Have you been involved in setting up any others?
In Chapel Hill? Well, I got the recreation program started when I was
president of the PTA, working again with federal funds, the NYA, and I
got a recreation director to come. There was no recreation director with
a program in the community and I found that she [Mrs. Fred Fletcher]
would be very glad to conduct a program if I could get grounds, a park
or someplace where she could set up a program. And then most of the
money would be supplied by NYA, but I would have to have some matching
funds. I said, "Well, I would like to have this as a private
organization, but it is not going to be sustained that way. Then we need
to have it accepted by the community and the Board of Alderman." I was
president of the PTA at that time and I said, "I'll get some of my board
members and we'll talk about it." And we also got the University to
By the state?
Yes, the charter had to be amended so that funds could be used. Look at the budget of the recreation department now. It's tremendous. And only two hundred and fifty dollars, way back in 1937-38. I don't recall whether it was the fall of '37 or the spring of '38. Probably the spring of '38, when I went before the Board of Aldermen with my little committee.
Now, was this integrated, the recreation program?
No, it was not integrated. I think that the town would not have accepted an integrated program.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
It was through the leadership of the Carrolls that a Community Center was accepted, started, for the Negro community. In an area on, I believe that it is Robertson Street. It is now called the Multi-Purpose Center. The Carrolls started raising funds to build a Community Center and Cornelia Love, for example, gave a large amount of money. Then, the building was erected and the war came and the Navy took over this building and completed it; used it for their band. The band was a Negro band and it was used as a practice room for the band and was completed for that purpose. Then, from the time that the town took over this building after the war, when the V-12 program turned the building over (back) to the town, some money had been appropriated for a program. Now, they have attempted to make this a multi-racial and multi-purpose center, but this grew out of the poverty program during the Johnson Administration, that the funds were used and that it became interracial. But for many years, it was used entirely by Negroes.
When you came back to Chapel Hill, what was the difference, the great differences you said, between the North Carolina Conference and the Georgia Conference on Welfare?
It [the North Carolina Conference] was completely program oriented
conference in that it was aimed at the annual meeting and that was all.
And the director was employed half time. I talked to a friend of mine,
Jean Heer, who was a trained social worker and the executive secretary
when I came back, and I said, "Jean, aren't you bored to death just
setting up an annual program?"
Now, what was the rationale for that? Why did she say that?
I didn't ask her to explain and she wasn't very good at elucidating her position, so that I didn't press her. She has never been one of many words and I have known her for a long, long time. In fact almost since we came to the University.
But you felt that that was closed, that there was no . . .
Yes, that this probably was true, because the health and welfare people were rather conservative on the state level, and . . .
More so than in Georgia?
Oh yes, more so than in Georgia. And there were not very many private welfare agencies in North Carolina either. Florence Crittenden Home in Charlotte, and the Children's Home, which was entirely an adoption agency, in Greensboro, Red Cross was the leading welfare agency. Cancer, Heart, all these health related programs had not been started. I don't know whether there was any family service agency in the state at that time. There were very few private welfare agencies in the state.
Well, was Georgia ahead of other states as far as . . .
Yes, yes.
Why?
Atlanta. Atlanta is a branch managers town. The crossroads of the South,
you see. And large businesses, the General Mills center, and by the way,
the manager of the regional office of General Mills was a very liberal
person. He gave me money for the Georgia Conference, because he said,
"You are doing an action program, and we believe in action. We don't
believe in sitting around the table with like-minded persons exchanging
ideas about what to do for these poor people who need food and health
care. We believe
By action program, she meant . . .
Going all over the state carrying the discussion of social issues to rural communities and towns, getting people involved and thinking about concerns and needs of the community.
So, this was really welfare of the community without involving the community?
Yes.
Did she continue that as long as she stayed . . .
Yes, I think that she felt that [all] the programs were more orderly if
managed from the top. I don't know whether she still has that attitude
or not. I have not actually . . . I see her frequently, and I
I was going to say, didn't you run into this group a lot?
Yes.
Is that one reason, like the North Carolina Council of Women's organizations that you founded, and you worked with the Federation of Women's Clubs, I mean, would there have been a place for big groups like that in a state like Georgia, or a city like Atlanta?
Yes, they would have been very useful to say, me as Director . . . they
would have been ready made channels through which to operate, to turn
to. Once you go to their board meetings and present an area of concern,
then you have the key leaders of the state hearing about these concerns,
and you will get two or three out of a group of fifteen saying, "Tell me
what I can do. Tell me where to start." This happened in Georgia, for
example, when I was going to a conference on social welfare, a national
conference in San Francisco in '46. I worked on the train, I was three
days on the train, and all that time, except for a brief break, I was
working on questions for the city of Albany to ask themselves to explore
the health and welfare needs of the community. And that's probably one
reason why we got the juvenile court going. They were deciding how they
could mobilize the community resources to get a juvenile court. After I
asked all these questions about sanitation, health care facilities,
housing, food and nutrition and etc. I had worked on it for a long time
and when I came back, [from San Francisco] I had a fifty page list of
questions to send to Albany. So, you see, if there had been an organized
group like . . . Now, there was a Georgia Federation of Women's Clubs,
but they were interested only in doing harmless things. And then there
was the Church Women United,
What about the other organizations, AAUW, the Federation of Women's Clubs?
In North Carolina? The AAUW was the only organization in the state to
oppose the Pearsall Plan, which was proposed by the Hodges
Administration to delay or nullify the Supreme Court decision of 1954.
And when the vote was to be taken on the Pearsall Plan in the summer,
the Winston-Salem branch of the AAUW . . . (First, I wrote a statement
reporting the Supreme Court decision and proposed it as a policy
statement, but I sounded out the Board first and talked about the matter
and we didn't take any action at the first Board meeting and at the end,
I said, "Here we are faced with the Pearsall Plan and we must take some
policy position. After all, this is the law of the land and it will
prevail regardless of how we kick and scream against it. It's much
better that North Carolina should go along and work slowly and
cooperatively, because it's coming. And if we do not make any threat
against it or do any screaming against it, I think that we would have a
much more peaceful integration of public schools." And this convinced
them and I had prepared a policy statement. Some of them didn't like two
or three words and I said, "Well, actually, the authority on this
subject is downstairs in the hotel lobby. My husband is here. Would you
like for him to come in and suggest some other words that might be
better?" And he did come in and very quickly suggested a wording which
did not undercut the statement, which yet was more agreeable to the
Board, and it was passed.) And then the Winston-Salem branch carried
through on a television program opposing the adoption of the Pearsall
Plan and got widespread publicity as a result. They had difficulty
getting a panel, but their chief panelist was Irving Carlyle, a liberal
lawyer of Winston-Salem, who opposed the Pearsall Plan. He did an
excellent job. And the rest were members of the Winston-Salem branch,
I wanted to ask you about the Commission on the Status of Women that you worked on. What was your feeling about how that turned out? There is a final report that was put out . . .
Yes, there is. Have you seen it?
I haven't.
I have a copy of the report that I will try to find for you, if you would be at all interested in seeing it.
Yes.
I think that it was considered to be one of the best of the state reports. Some of the state reports, for example, the Georgia state report, which was late in coming, was just practically a rewrite of the national report. But Anne Scott did an excellent job [for North Carolina].
She was chairman?
Yes, of this commission. We met a number of times, we endorsed, we
re-examined each report, she divided the responsibilities among each of
the members of the Board and was utterly amazed when I said, "I can't do
this by myself." I was to talk about women's voluntary organization. I
said, "I wouldn't presume to write this report. Let me have fifteen or
twenty key women in the state to help me write it, bring them in and
discuss the points and assign different areas for them to write and I
can bring in the report. But I would not be so presumptious as to write
the report." She said, "But we don't have any money to finance a large
group of women like this." I said, "You don't need any money. These
women are very glad to come in at their own expense and do this work as
an act of voluntaryism. Just to participate in this discussion." And she
said, "All right, but no funds are available." "Well enough." So, she
let me set up a committee. I had about twenty-four key leaders and we
Did many of the states do this?
Some have and I think that some towns have set up . . . for example,
Salisbury had a commission on the status of women that brought in a
report. I think that Atlanta has had a commission on the status of
women. I think so. But this has occurred only within the last five or
six years, perhaps. There have been these various local commissions as
well as the states. I think that every state, I'm not sure, but I think
that every state has had a state Commission on the Status of Women and
of course, out of this grew the drive for ERA. Martha Griffiths wasn't
getting too far with her
How do you feel about that?
Well, I think that we don't need that legislation. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment protects us. We have the Civil Rights Act to do the same thing. But as a focus on the rights of women, perhaps it's needed. I know that there is great concern on the part of conservative lawyers and judges that women will be harmed and women who have worked bitterly and long to get special legislation protecting women and children are very much opposed to ERA. They think that women will be left without any rights at all. That yes, men and women are equal, would be equal under ERA, but that men would be more equal than women. And this is their fear. I know that I have talked to Chief Justice Bobbit and Justice Susie Sharp to get their opinons and they are both very much concerned, because they handle many cases and . . . I don't know what Justice Bobbit's experience was, but I'm sure that he was a superior court judge before he went to the Supreme Court. They have tried so many cases in which women have got the short end of the stick, that they. (and have been so grateful for legislation protecting the rights of women) that they are very hesitant to see these rights given up. So, I think that they would feel happier if we pushed the Fourteenth Amendment, applied it to women and implemented the Civil Rights Act which includes no discrimination on the basis of sex . . .
On individual cases as they came up?
Yes. And now that HEW is beginning Affirmative Action, they think that
this is going to greatly improve the rights of women, and that this is
the most solid way of establishing equality than to arouse the alarms
by
And has been totally ignored.
Has been totally ignored. And even the Civil Rights Amendments, as my little essay on The Changing Status of Southern Women pointed out in a footnote, immediately after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, there were ways being sought to evade, and I cited that Doubleday had this little publication which was available and being circulated to industry pointing out the ways of evading the Civil Rights Act.
When you came back to North Carolina, were you able to get more involved in politics, have you been, you and Guy?
Yes, I was involved. I began attending precinct meetings and was never
elected to any precinct office. My name would always be usually proposed
for an office or proposed for a county executive committee job and
usually I would be nominated, either by Bob Maddry, who was the mayor
Right, we can close portions if you wish.
Yes. Simply out of concern for Mable Hatch who was proposing my name to
the governor, and I was always being asked by this little liberal group
to go talk to the governor about an issue which he seemed to be
[wavering on] . . . and I would always just pick up the telephone and
say, "Ed . . . ", Ed Rankin was his executive secretary, "Ed, I want to
see the governor for about ten minutes." "O.K. What do you want to talk
to him about?" And I would tell him and he would say, "All right. Come
on, get in you car and come right on over and you can go right in." And
the governor would listen sympathetically and would do what I asked him
to. So, he sent Mable Hatch, or Mabel Hatch had asked him if he would
endorse me to run for lieutenant governor. This
They wanted someone who would support them. I had been speaking to the
Young Democrats and I had been speaking to the Democratic Women, to the
State Convention and had been going around speaking to the district
meetings of Democratic Women ever since the fall of 1947. I had been
involved, accepted on the state level, but not on the local level.
Had there been a lot of publicity when that happened. Was it in the papers?
Yes, yes. There were banner headlines in Atlanta and this went on for
several days. I was in St. Louis making a speech and got this telegram
when I was making the speech and I put it in my notebook and forgotDon't worry, everything
will be all right." And that was all. I didn't know what had happened,
what was the matter. I tried to reach him by telephone and could not. I
thought that something had happened to Edward. Maybe Edward had been run
over by an automobile. That was before he had his accident.7 I cut my trip short and dashed back to
Atlanta. I said, "What has happened?" And it was all in the newspapers.
But people have a very short memory. But in a political campaign, they
dig it up. You go back and get all the dirt you can on your opponent.
Not that I think Luther Hodges would have run that kind of campaign,
because I think that he was politically naive and he wouldn't have known
it. But then there were other opponents who were long standing
conservative politicians who were also running for lieutenant governor.
So, that's the only political connections that I've had.
I did campaign with Gladys Tillet in eastern North Carolina until I felt that she could not (of course she was politically experienced and I was naive, but I knew the women of the state and she had been out a long time) and I felt that she was not, she did not know how to approach the women of North Carolina to get their support.
Now, what was she campaigning for?
For Frank Graham. Both of us would go and speak to groups. I
had to give her the names of the key women in the community and get
the
Primarily because of the driving?
Yes. His organization let it be known that I was available to speak in the Piedmont. I spoke in Durham. I went out to White Cross and spoke. That's a little community that was very active for awhile and now it is a dying community, I'm afraid. And at St. Mary's and I worked with those reactionary people that I had worked with in OPA and OCD and, of course, Frank Graham carried the county, but I had nothing to do with that, but I was able to get an endorsement from these people who were a little afraid of Frank because I had worked with them during the war. So, that's the only time that I have campaigned for anyone. I did campaign for Umstead after the primary election, I spoke before the general election. But after that, I haven't done any general campaigning.
What about when the sit-ins were going on in Chapel Hill during '64, were you or Guy involved in that?
No, not involved at all.8 Because I
think that Guy and I both felt that although protest had to be made, and
that it was important for protest to be made and I had written and
published at least two essays expressing this idea, that the cause of
the Negro had been largely a white liberal cause and very few Negros had
been involved. Even white liberals would not permit Negro
leadership, except in a few instances.
And you felt in the early sixties that this was . . .
Yes. I had a number of-well, John Hope Franklin for example. I had talked with John Hope about this and he agreed with me. I had talked to a Negro woman historian whom I had first met at Chicago when we were there, some simple name like-she's married and uses her married name now. I'll get her name for you if you would like. She is now at Howard University. And she had approached me (Guy has been on the Board of Trustees of Howard University for a long time and I go up with him occassionaly) and she saw me on one occassion and she said, "We have used your essay on the impact of war upon the Negro and your southern paternalism article as textbooks. And you say that the Negro must win his own freedom. We agree with that and this is what we are trying to do. So help us indirectly if you can, but don't take part in any sit-downs, because you will be violating your own principles." So, we were not involved at all. But when little frictions arose between little groups on campus, then I was able to intervene.
I have been the personnel advisor of the Chi Omega sorority almost from the beginning of the organization of that group. They were organized in 1923 and we came on campus in '24 but it was not until the thirties that I began to work very closely with them. But here again, these were the daughters of the leaders in the state who make the decisions for North Carolina and I considered it very important for me to work with them, to develop some kind of liberal, rational approach to the problems of the state.
Now, were you in contact with them during this period?
Oh yes, yes indeed. And help them give leadership. I was not able to keep
them all off the picket line. There were a few who were avid. A little
girl from Jessup, Georgia, which is perhaps one of the most reactionary
communities in all of Georgia, was one of the leaders.
But supported what they were doing?
Well, we didn't support the extreme stands which Howard Fuller for example, took on occassion. We felt that he was too extreme, and we still think that he has become irrational in his approach. Do you know who Howard Fuller is?
Just know who he is, that's all.
He came here on the staff of the School of Social Work and then resigned and walked out. He wasn't meeting his classes; he was taking part in organizing the sit-downs. Then came to class one day, threw his roll book down on the table and said, "I refuse to have anything else to do with this reactionary, capitalistic (a few other expletives) department. I am leaving."
Did he resign?
He just left. And Floyd Hunter had done the same thing. He had just left
and didn't meet his classes. Disappeared. He had gone to Hong Kong.
Well, what about what the Black Student Movement was doing? Was that . . .
That party was being organized at the time of the sit-ins and they asked Guy to come and speak to them one night on the black student movement and I went with him . . .
To a group of black students?
Entirely. Because they were not too eager to have whites in the group. Which was all right with me. I thought that this was fine, that they needed to have just blacks in their group in order to develop strategy and talk through philosophy and ideology and so he and I and a liberal, white, Episcopal minister who was a campus minister supported by the Episcopal Church, attended. And he was a leader in the Black Student Movement and was working very closely with Howard Fuller.
What was his name?
I hope that I will remember his name. I can't recall right now what it
is, but I will get his name for you. 9
He was the only other white person [present.] He sat in the back of the
auditorium and Guy gave a brief historical sketch of the movement of the
Negro in behalf of his own civil rights. He spoke very briefly about the
Southern Regional Council and said that he endorsed the Black Student
Movement, the idea of it, although he disagreed with some of the
tactics. And then there was just an eruption, booing and they began
practically to assault him, and one young man said, "I will not tolerate
this white chauvinism in any group that I attend. I believe that the
only solution to our problem is to take over the southern states and
have black nationalism. This is the land that we tilled, the land that
we cultivated, our sweat and our labor made the South prosper. The
nation owes the South to us." I stood up and said, "You sound like a
South African. You sound like an Afrikaner. This is what the Afrikaners
want, the BantustansAnte-Bellum North Carolina, I
wouldn't have a master's degree right now, and I want now publicly to
thank her for what she has written about the Negro in ante-bellum North
Carolina." And she sat down and things calmed down. And Kenneth
Spaulding, who is now a lawyer in Durham and a very successful leader
and lawyer, was then getting his law degree here, and he leaned over and
whispered to me . . . we had met him before when he was a student at
Howard University . . . "I didn't know that this was going to happen. I
would not have asked you to come and talk to this group. These are just
outside radicals. They are not even students here in the University, and
I apologize." So, this was the only contact that we have had directly
with the Black Student Movement. Guy was not asked to address the group
anymore, and had no contact with the group whatsoever, or with any of
the leaders.
What about later, in '69 and '70 when all the Vietnam sit-ins were being held? How did you react to that?
I deplored some of the tactis being used. I had long opposed the war and
felt that, despite the fact that I had taught naval history and strategy
in the V-12 program and knew the strategy involved and knew why we were
in Vietnam, because it was a part of the basic concept of American
strength in the Pacific. Vietnam was a key bastion and if you accepted
the
END OF INTERVIEW
The Southern Part of Heaven.
year after
the accident!