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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0047-2, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
This is the second of two interviews with Mabel Pollitzer of Charleston, South Carolina. A native of Charleston, South Carolina, Pollitzer taught biology at an all-girls school for more than forty years during the first half of the twentieth century. As a young professional woman living in Charleston, Pollitzer became actively involved in the women's suffrage movement in the early 1910s. Here she describes in depth the role of Susan Pringle Frost as a prominent citizen of Charleston and as a leader within the women's suffrage movement as the first president of the Charleston Equal Suffrage League. Pollitzer explains the split within the women's suffrage movement that occurred when Alice Paul split off from the National American Woman Suffrage Association and formed the National Woman's Party, which both Pollitzer and Frost supported, and which advocated not only for women's suffrage but for passage of the Equal Rights Amendment. Pollitzer describes the split within the movement as it occurred in 1917. In addition, she describes some of the other causes she pursued as a teacher and community member, namely her effort to change school policies that led to the dismissal of female teachers when they married. Finally, she offers her thoughts on a list of South Carolina suffragists and where they aligned themselves when the movement split.
Mabel Pollitzer describes her involvement in the women's suffrage movement in Charleston, South Carolina. In particular, Pollitzer describes the leadership role of Susan Pringle Frost within the movement, the split between the National American Woman Suffrage Association and the National Woman's Party in the 1910s, and her perception of various leaders within the movement in South Carolina.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Miss Pollitzer, I would like for you, if you can remember, to tell a little bit about the background of Susan Pringle Frost. The kind of thing, perhaps, that wouldn't appear in brief newspaper accounts. Simply tell about significant accomplishments and this sort of thing.
To me Miss Susan Pringle Frost was one of the most remarkable women who
ever lived in Charleston. She came from a very aristocratic family. I
remember so well, Miss Sue and her two sisters, Miss Mary and also
As a person, what was she like, according to your recollection? Her personality.
She was outgoing. She spoke, I would say, quite frankly and freely
always. We were really very very friendly. I just loved her. I felt she
was a woman to be admired. Deeply religious. I remember on one occasion
I was at her house when she had a servant who brought a glass of water
to her. And the servant thoughtlessly put the glass of water on the
Bible. Miss Frost said to her, calling her by her name—I'll say
Charlotte—"Charlotte, you know you should never desecrate a Bible by
putting a glass of water on it." She was very serious about that. That
Bible was never to have anything that would hurt or harm it in
appearance in any way. Then I remember another incident. It was a midday
meal. I was a guest. I don't know whether it was lunch or dinner. At her
house, the Pringle house.2 We were
seated at the table. Everything was very simple, but very, very nice.
Miss Frost, at that time, had opened the house to paying guests, as she
called them. The money was always needed, all through her life. We were
seated at the table and the servant brought her some mail. And as she
scanned the envelopes
Now Miss Frost—oh, I cannot tell you exactly the year, but it was around the 1913s. It may have been before. But it was in 1913 when Alice Paul severed her connection with the National American Woman Suffrage Association. I do not know how this information came to Miss Sue, but she was an ardent suffragist and she felt surely that the Susan B. Anthony amendment should be passed and that it should be federal and not according to the ideas of state by state as was thought by Carrie Chapman Catt. She called a meeting at No. 4 Logan Street.
This may
I'd like to ask another question or two about Miss Sue. What did she do after ratification? Was she active for the women's movement at all after ratification?
Oh indeed yes. I'm glad you asked that. She was one who kept on indefatigably. After ratification, the last state by Tennessee and then, of course, Connecticut ratified, she never stopped for one minute. And she was then chairman of the South Carolina branch of the National Women's Party. I cannot remember that she called meetings because at that stage, it must be understood, meetings were not imperative. The whole idea then, was to center the attention on the federal government, on Representatives and Senators. And letter after letter she wrote. And I know she went to headquarters several times.
But after ratification did she continue to do this?
Yes! Because then, they were working right away, in '23—for the Equal
Rights Ammendment.
And Miss Frost was active for the passage of an equal rights amendment?
Oh, definitely. For all those years until I took over. In Miss Frost's later years I was active chairman. We were constantly, almost, getting together, you might say, to do what we could to urge our own Senator & later two Senators, and Representatives to work for and to pass the amendment. And I must say that it was Sen. Pollock,4 in the very early days, with whom Anita also worked, and I also worked. I'm speaking now of after ratification of the 19th Amendment . . . but it may have been Sen. Pollock for ratification. I think you are right. Pollock was for ratification of suffrage. But then it was with the members of the Congress to pass the Equal Rights Amendment. I do not know exactly the year when US Sen. Strom Thurmond was elected. Sen. Thurmond was one of the early, early sponsors of ERA When I say Anita, you know that I'm talking of my sister.
Miss Frost remained active in the National Women's Party working for the Lucretia Mott amendment rather than entering the League of Women Voters and sponsoring what came to be knon around the state as citizenship schools?
I do not know if Miss Frost became a member of the League of Women
Voters. As I told you, I did not. I didn't want to because at that time
they were not in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment. And I also was not
a member of the University Women's Club who were with the National
American University Women's Clubs . . . I was not a member of the
American
And you associated the League of Women Voters, in your mind, with the AAUW . . .
I cannot say I associated it. They were separate organizations. But they had one common purpose. They at that time did not want women to have equal rights through federal action Well, of course, I just didn't like that. So as I say, when you asked about Miss Frost in keeping up her interest, it was one of her lifelong interests. just as mine has been and is . . . and also, of course, the preservation of the buildings of Charleston. As she became older, I took over and did everything until the autumn of 1972 - (which is rather recent) after the Amendment was passed. I still work for Ratification.
I wonder what you think might have been, in her background, that led her to her pattern of functioning in Charleston society. There must have been a little streak of opposition to the status quo, or she would not have gone into a business career in the first place. And then in the second place, into women's rights activity. What do you think lay behind this?
I would not know. I feel that Miss Frost was a very independent soul. She
did what she wanted to do when she thought it was right. And that's the
thing I feel was an outstanding character or quality. When the Prison
Special5 came to Charleston, Miss
Frost was right along with them, which was very wonderful,
Was she riding on the train or did she just lead the delegation
No, she met the train most probably. There were wonderful women on that Prison Special. Those were the ones, you see, who had been in jail because they carried the banners and they picketed the White House. Miss Frost and Mrs. Abby Scott Baker presided at the meeting held in the large Academy of Music.
Now Miss Frost did some picketing in Washington.
I did not know that Miss Frost picketed.
The newspaper accounts suggest that she did.
I did not know that. I was so busy with my 44 years of teaching, and all else, that I am sure there are many things that I just do not know that happened.
I was just wondering what Miss Frost's home life was like as a child. Were both her parents living all through her childhood?
I would not know that. I never heard her speak of her parents or ancestry.
I would like to know which of her parents inspired her to reading and her interest in political affairs.
I have no idea of that. I think there is a Frost, maybe a close relative, who held some office in the city of Charleston, another relative was a Cotton Factor.
I think it was her grandfather, a judge.
I can't be sure, but it seemed to me there was somebody in my mind. But please remember I cannot be sure. I think it was a health officer.
Well, her father was a physician.
It may have been her father who was health officer,
Why were they not in very comfortable circumstances? Why was it that she had to work hard to make ends meet?
In those days it was amazing.6 If a
gentleman was salaried or had his own business with an income of around
$2,000 we never considered him poor, at all. Today you're poor if you
don't get $5,000. I don't know that they looked upon themselves as ever
being poor, but it was never being wasteful. It was always, we might
say, being thoughtful of saving for the next . . . expenses I do not
know that.
Despite the aristocratic lineage.
Oh, a good many of the aristocrats.
I know one in particular, were taking in sewing even for the colored folks.
I wonder about Miss Frost's other community involvements. Beside her
preservation functions and beside her women's rights commitments,
I am unable to name whatever else she was interested in. But knowing Miss Frost, I feel that she was deeply interested in anything for the good of Charleston. She adored Charleston. That's all I can say. I could not name different organizations. Now I was a member of the Civic Club shortly after I graduated from Columbia University in 1906 But I can't remember Miss Frost ever attending a meeting. But as she was a stenographer she could not get off in the afternoon, the time of the meetings. And so it is with a great many other organizations. I know she was deeply interested in getting the College of Charleston open to women. But I don't know that she took any active part. It was my sister Carrie who was the prime mover and spearheaded, you might say the work & petitions and Chamber of Commerce talk that resulted in the admission of women . . . I don't know about Miss Frost's other activities. Of course she was so busy in showing the house to guests of Charleston, to visitors, to tourists. And that was a very big interest in her life. Because, that did bring in money to repair her house. And a big house such as that . . . that Pringle house costs a fortune to keep it in repair. Miss Frost loved her garden.
I know one thing, she loved her servants dearly.
There was a man who lived on the place. I don't know what he did, but he lived there. And then I know she had woman help. And she did have paying guests and of course she had to have help. Miss Mary died, some many years, as I remember it, before Miss Frost.
I was going to ask what her sisters did with respect to
Yes-As far as I know.
And you don't know whether or not they supported her morally, I might say.
Not As far as I know. I never heard Miss Sue mention any support given to the movement or given to her. They may have been, but if so, I can't remember Miss Sue ever talking of it.
Were any Charlestonians, and certainly those among her distinguished family, aghast at her radical activities?
I never heard of that. Never.
Did many of these women in Charleston, who came over into the woman's party at that exciting meeting in 1917, stay with the movement after ratification? Or did a decided number drift away?
It is my feeling that a number did drift. But I feel, when called, to
send telegrams when needed, to Congress, then they would respond. You
see, in my recollection, there were very few meetings called for the
women's rights movement. So after suffrage was passed, it seemed as that
was, as they would say, a fait accompli. That was done. And then nearly
everything else—because I helped Miss Frost a great deal—was done by
telephone. For instance, I would get in touch with the head of the
Business and Professional Women's Club. I would get in touch with
whatever league it might be. And get their support. But that could be
done by phone, without having them all together to say yes we will do it
and we'll send telegrams. You see.
What was her first name?
I'm trying to think of it. The other names of the members of her family come to me and her name was Cordelia. I remember meeting her on the bus. And she said to me "Miss Mabel, the need for it is evident at the Navy Yard. For years I've been promoted and promoted until I am now teaching the men how to be managers of their various departments. I, a woman, will never be a manager."
You see, I believe that working at the Navy Yard and sharing those experiences helped lead Rachel Whaley Hanckel8 into the movement.
Quite likely. You're right. I wish I could tell you the name of Miss
Schroeder.
The reason I asked the question about the suffragists going into business and tending to drift away from direct involvement in the movement is that this seemed to be a pattern with the South Carolina Equal Suffrage League after ratification. So many women, after ratification, entered into the business sphere, went into the insurance business and things of that sort. I wondered if you recollected any individuals that responded this way to what they believed were enlarged opportunities for women resulting from the ballot.
If I had been in the business world I might answer that question. But I do know that there became a large number of women secretaries, stenographers, filing clerks. But I could not call them by name in any way. But that is true.
I meant actually going into business. Launching out with a real estate or an insurance firm.
Yes. I remember. There was a Mrs. Hartnett I don't know that she was into suffrage, but she had her own real estate years later. And then there is Betty Lucas Manahan who entered Real Estate years later.
She was a suffragist?
No, not that I know of. The women I mentioned, Hartnett and Hanahan,
Was there much interest in the Lucretia Mott amendment in Charleston after ratification?
I do not know of it. I know on one occasion I approached
This was not dues, was it?
I may have called it dues for one year.
These were contributions.
I can't be sure. But I raised some money from many teachers. But then they never said anything to me about it again and they knew of my interest. So I thought "oh all right, just let it go."
Did you approach the teachers on a one to one basis or did you give any public addresses?
Oh, no, no, no. Approached them as individuals in the faculty room.
Did you circulate any leaflets?
I may have done that, but it was mostly by word of mouth, how necessary
it was. Because at that time I did something of which I was really very
glad. And this, I think, inspired me to do it among our faculty. There
was a ruling that when a woman teacher married she automatically lost
her position on the faculty. It's coming back to me
Do you think that your petition had a definite impact itself?
Yes indeed. I haven't thought of that until this day.
Did you go from school to school to get support?
It wasn't necessary, because if the ruling applied to Memminger, it would have to apply to all the schools.
I understand, but in circulating this petition did you go beyond your school confines? Was there a representative of this movement to do away with this regulation on the other school campuses?
No the Petition was signed only by our own faculty. No opposition. They simply took my word for it that it was unfair. When a man married, he was kept on the faculty. When a woman married, out she went.
But were there other women, at the other school campuses, who felt similarly, who circulated petitions to the teachers at their schools?
I never heard of it. It wasn't necessary.
Did you initiate this yourself? Was this of your own
Of course I initiated it. I thought of it, and carried it out.
This was not necessarily a Woman's Party suggestion that teachers in our party do this.
Oh, nothing, nothing, like that.
Did you feel any reprisals for doing this?
None.
You didn't get called in on the carpet?
No. It was satisfactory to the School Trustees. They saw the justice of it. I will tell you one thing that I did that had nothing to do with the woman's party. A dear girl in my class, in the senior class—because I was then class teacher, it wasn't my biology class—was crying. And she said "I have a notice that because I was married a few days ago I have to leave the school. I am discharged as a student." I said to her "Oh, that must not be. Don't weep. Good may come from this." I ran to the superintendent, after asking her a few questions— who she married and so forth. She had married a musician—
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
—he was of one of the finest families. When we speak of what constitutes
a fine family. I suppose I'd say aristocratic. Very high toned, and
cultured. I went to the superintendent and I said "Mr. Rhett, is there
anything wrong when a young lady knows a gentleman well, a gentleman who
can support her, an aristocrat. Is there anything wrong when they decide
to get married?" He looked at me with surprise at such a
Did he have reason to fear? He said "What will come of this?" as though there would be a tremendous number of students getting married. Was there?
I can't recall that anybody else in my teaching career got married just before graduation. I can't remember that. But she graduated. I saw her recently at a Symphony concert. She put her arms around me and turned to the friend with whom she was and said "my teacher, who helped me." And all through the years, whenever I see her, she is joyous and so appreciative and grateful.
Was that the end of her education or did she later return to school?
No, as far as formal education that may have been the end. But she's a
wonderful mother. One son is an Episcopal minister in Atlanta. Another
one, I think, is a physician. Her children went
I notice that Anita's interest in the 1930s in the equal rights amendment was extended to a specific concern with New Deal legislation. She sought to get a fair deal for women from the New Deal, where she perceived an unfair deal. Did you see anything of this sort in Charleston as a whole? Any objection to the unfairness in the codes, the industrial codes in the National Recovery Act?
I can't say I did.
Anita was terribly active.
Anita was very active throughout the years and gave of her time. I remember her speaking and writing of the Secretary of Labor, Miss Frances Perkins. And Anita felt that the party would not attain certain things without Miss Perkins' change of attitude. I can remember some of that.
I suppose she wasn't effective in getting Miss Perkins to change her attitude.
She was effective in nearly everything she did, but I do not know about that. I know one thing, that Mrs. Roosevelt could have done so much to help. And as brilliant a woman as she was, she did not come forth and say this amendment must be passed. I heard Anita speak of that.
I'd like to hear, too, about that dramatic meeting in December 1917 when the Charleston group split in two. You were there.
You want me to tell you my recollection of that meeting?
In as great detail as you can possibly summon up.
1917 is many decades back from 1974, isn't it? I remember distinctly the room in which we met at the old Young Women's Christian Association. I remember, strange to say, just about where Carrie and I —Carrie my sister, you know—where we sat. I believe Anita was not there. I think she was working in Washington. She graduated from Columbia University in 1916. I know Miss Frost was the Chairman, probably self-appointed, because she was so interested. Chairman of the group. And I remember Miss Frost presenting the fact that there may be two ways in order to get the result of voting rights. One would be state by state, as was wanted by Carrie Chapman Catt and her group. The other way would be the method suggested and being carried out, if possible, by the great Dr. Alice Paul, who broke away from Carrie Chapman Catt's group in 1913. Then, after explaining the difference and the advantages of the National Women's Party course of action that would work directly through federal action, and requiring only the ratification of the different states, than working state by state and then having a future legislature make null and void the improvements of justice made by the previous legislature.9
I remember distinctly. Those who were in favor of a National Woman's Party stood. Carrie and I stood. We acclaimed our leader for presenting it so successfully. Who were the others who broke away, I don't know. But on a telegram, which I have shown to you, are the names of those who wanted —
I have the list of those who broke away and shortly I would like to ask you something about these women.
Then you may continue your next thought. But it was a very, very important meeting.
Did it go on into the wee hours of the evening?
Oh no. It was an afternoon meeting as I remember.
Was it an amicable split?
Oh yes. I think there might have been a little bit of excitement on the part of some.
No denuncitaory speeches?
I can't remember if the others said anything that was not amicable. It was a question of do you think this or do you think that?
But a split resulted. A breach in the movement! This would suggest some acrimony.
I can't remember that. Maybe so. It didn't affect me in any way, except that Carrie and I and the others who joined The National Woman's Party were doing the right thing.
Was the press there?
I don't know. Press articles would be shown in Anita's scrapbook.
The paper reported this. I didn't know whether your party members
recorded it themselves and gave the report to the paper or whether the
press sent its own representatives there. When you formed
You know the amazing part? I never heard about the state league. I felt it was a local affair. I never knew about these people, these very wonderful women I suppose, who were dedicated to that movement. I just didn't know about them. I just felt it was here in Charleston. We were helping and wanted to help, you see. We might say to give our approval of having suffrage for women.
You didn't know about Mrs. Harriet Powe Lynch up in Cheraw. She formed the South Carolina Equal Suffrage League. You don't know whether Sue Frost formed the Charleston branch, or the Charleston league, as a separate entity or in conjunction with Mrs. Lynch's state-wide league?
I don't know about the rest of South Carolina's Suffrage work You see, in my mind, I guess there just was no publicity. I mean I always read the papers. Had there been any publicity, I would have known. Anita's clippings may show some publicity.
So you don't know whether the years that the Charleston group spent as a suffrage league were part of the entire state suffrage league. You just simply don't have that information?
My mind is blank about that.
I also had this question. Whether or not anyone in the Charleston league,
before it became the Women's Party, went to Columbia,
I wouldn't know.
And whether she went to hear Mrs. Catt and Dr. Howard Anna Shaw, who came to Columbia.
Oh, I do know, of course, of Dr. Anna Howard Shaw. A marvelous woman, and we have a volume, the biography of Anna Howard Shaw. But that's all I know about that. I think Dr. Shaw lectured on Charleston.
And Maud Wood Park was also important in the NAWSA group. An organizer came to Columbia, about 1916, before your split, to hold organizing meetings to teach the women how to organize for suffrage. Her name was Lola Trax. She was from the west. She came to teach the women how to organize. Was there much publicity before that meeting when the Charleston group voted to split? I realize that they had met earlier, in November. At the November meeting it was suggested that a change be made in the constitution which would include a change in the name of the organization.
Was there much publicity given to that impending split? Was there publicity given to the fact that a constitutional change would be voted on the following month?
I don't remember any of those things. It's pretty far back.
But there was a meeting in November. I do see this in the paper.
If it were in the paper . . . the press should show it.
The report simply says that the following month a constitutional change will be presented and voted on. I wondered, in the interim, in the time between the two meetings, if each side presented its position in position papers, in speeches, in letters.
I probably was correcting notebooks and hundreds of test papers then, I really do not know about that. If it were there I just don't know. And I do not know who in Charleston would have been the active ones to have furthered the cause so that more would have joined the National Women's Party. As I think of it, the National Women's Party in Charleston was never a large organization. It was a dedicated small group. For those who wanted to work for it it was really, I might say, intensely dedicated. Just a few. And I think, as I say, always with reverence, of some of those who were ardent, in the Business and Professional Women's Club. That was the active club in Charleston for Suffrage. And I can't remember—I mean the one club in Charleston that I know that worked for it. Miss Frost and I kept the President informed. And I cannot remember even that the Charleston federation did anything to further the cause. I knew, in '72, when the ERA was passed, I got in touch with the president of the Charleston federation of Women's Club. And I don't know if before that they had done things in the past. I know the general federation was for it. And a great many national organizations.
So you don't know about any publicity campaigns, pro or against a
constitutional change. When you described the crowd at that
The crowd? I wouldn't call it a crowd.
About how many?
Let's see. I'm thinking of the rows, as I recollect them. There may have
been thirty-five or forty. I'm just thinking of the seats that were
occupied.
Did you not customarily attend the monthly meetings?
I never missed any meetings as far as I know.
Then you would probably have been there anyway.
Most likely.
Carrie too?
Yes, unless any school meeting interferred.
So there was a "crowd" of about 34 or 40 people—
Yes. The room, as I think of it, was not large. Of course, larger than this, in which you are seated. I wouldn't want to venture to say the size, but I would say that maybe 35 people were there. The entrance was on Society Street then. It was the old Young Women's Christian Association.
Who spoke for the constitutional change at the meeting?
As I remember Miss Frost was the only one who was really very active and
spoke. She was always a great leader. She was to me just a very
marvelous courageous woman. And presided. I do remember a few others.
You don't recall who spoke against the change then. Whether or not each side presented a little slate of speakers.
I know definitely there was opposition, but I could not name the opponents. It was sort of interesting, because all meetings just go sort of smoothly along. And I remember distinctly that I felt that that was the rupture, you see, the break.
No one left in a huff.
No, I can't remember anything like that. There was nothing to be angry about. It was a question of what your mind thought.
But it was a splitting of the movement. As it was, both wings of the movement were small enough when together. But to split and, in a sense, to go separate ways focusing on different aspects of the problem. It would seem that it would occur to you that it would weaken the local movement.
It was a gentle splitting. I'm afraid I'm not very much help in remembering the details.
You're probably right. It probably wasn't a cold split.
I can't tell you the details and I can't tell you anybody living right
now who was there. I'm the only surviver. I'm glad I remember as much as
I do. It was an afternoon meeting as I recall. Because Miss Frost was
busy, it may have been around five o'clock when she got off from work,
or something like that. But it was not a night
Did it go on longer than the usual meeting?
I wouldn't have an idea of what a usual meeting of that kind would be. I don't know.
Was there any community reaction to this split?
Can't remember any reaction.
Did you hear any comments in town?
No.
The women's movement is going to be considerably weaker now.
I just don't remember that the opponents ever did anything. It was Miss Frost who carried on, without the others. I don't know that the others ever did anything.
On which side would you say majority expression lay?
I think the majority went with Miss Frost. I believe the others just died out. That's my recollection.
I'd like to ask you a little bit about these women. I have lists here of women who stayed in the party. And women who departed. I wondered if you remembered any of these women and if you would make a comment. Because it is of considerable interest. The general background of these individuals.
— what one individual thinks. Another might be thinking very much otherwise. But I can tell you what I would think.
Of course, I understand. It would be your impression. But no one else is here to give these questions . . .
We cannot have a debate. Somebody to say "Well, I think you're wrong."
And I'd like to know something about these women as I name them off. What kind of background did they spring from and what other organizations did they belong to. Trying to develop a pattern of a prototypical suffragist.
Please be prepared. I'm not going to be able to answer a great deal. Don't let any hearer of this think that I am totally ignorant. with a lot of these people I knew the individual but not the background.
I understand. You might know something about what the individual does for a livelihood.
Let's go ahead even if I have to answer in the negative.
In the women's party remained Estelle McBee
I can't remember that she was active. I do know that the two Mcbee sisters, intellectually, were very civic minded, very fine. Her sister, Mary Vardine McBee, as you know, was the founder of Ashley Hall a girl's school Mary Vardine McBee was chosen by the school board and she became a woman representative on the school board. I admire her intensely for what she did for Ashley Hall.
She was also instrumental, with you, in working for the free library.
Oh yes. When I came to her. When I told her we had to have a library and
so forth. But that's another story, which I think I told you. But also
Dr. McBee was president of the Civic Club for
What about Mrs. Edward McIver.
Oh, she was a very live, active woman. She remained with Miss Frost's group. Of course I knew her personally. I do not know who she was before she was McIver, so I don't know her background.
Mrs. R. DeWar Bacot
Oh yes. She was a Canadian who came to Charleston because she was a very good friend of Miss Nina Ottolengui of whom we have spoken. They roomed together. I think it was when the Ottolenguis had a boarding house. Nina invited her. Saddie Bacot as I knew her, before she married . . . No, I've got it backwards. Sadie Cunningham before she became Mrs. Bacot was a visitor at this house quite often and I liked her. She was very forward looking. Very alive in everything she did. I don't know what she did after she married Dewar Bacot.
What about Sophie Brown?
Oh, I haven't thought of her in years. She was deeply interested in the
kindergarten association, deeply. I cannot tell you much about her. This
is digressing quite a bit but one of the members of the family was in
charge of one of Charleston's light houses. I know she had a very
interesting niece whom I taught. The name, as it
Mrs. G. Jurs.
Grey, whitehaired lady. active Kind face. It's interesting how I can see them all. She was deeply interested in the Civic Club. You see, I was chairman of the city betterment committee of the Civic Club. For years. And she helped in all, or many, of my undertakings. She was a lovely woman. As far as suffrage goes, I cannot tell you that. Her husband, I think, was a tailor. She passed away so long ago. You know, this really is very interesting. It's like opening a book and seeing these photographs of people. Fortunately I do remember what they look like. She was a lovely woman and I think she was very civic minded. Of course, belonging to the civic club one would imagine that.
Mrs. Charles Simmons.
I cannot picture her.
Marie Baker.
Oh, very well. She was music teacher at Ashley Hall. In the very early days.
A Charlestonian?
I don't know. But her mother lived in Charleston. Whether she came here
before
Mrs. A. Johnston Buist.
I knew her very, very well. She was the second wife of the distinguished Dr. Buist. Dr. A. Johnston Buist. He was very civic minded. Very. For years he was president of our Charleston museum when I was secretary and trustee.
His distinction was in civic affairs rather than prominence in medicine?
No. Very prominent. He was one of the outstanding surgeons. Very. And I remember during World War One, he was chosen among leading men of Charleston to give talks on, I think, why people should subscribe to what I think was then called Liberty Bonds. There were something like four minute speakers, or two minute speakers. I saw a good deal of Dr. Johnston Buist because he always used to bring me home, from the evening museum meetings.
What about her activities, besides the suffrage group?
I don't know to what extent she was interested in suffrage. She adored Anita. And Anita, so much, much younger, was around her house very, very often. Mrs. Buist felt her position very, very much. Homekeeper and wife. I cannot think of anything else particularly in the line of social work.
Miss Lockwood. No first name. It simply said Miss Lockwood.
That's Eliza
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[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
—Mrs. Lockwood of whom I was speaking, this wonderful woman. She loved me. The last word she said to me at night when I visited her—it was after dusk—and she came to the steps, because they lived on the second floor of the drug store. And I'll never forget. She smiled and she said "Good-bye angel Mabel." The next morning Lila came over to say she had passed away during the night. But that has nothing to do with suffrage. Lila was a devoted friend of ours. Mrs. Lockwood had this one daughter and one son. Because Carrie was so interested in kindergarten, and Lila loved children, Lila studied kindergarten. She was almost Carrie's age, a little younger.
Where would she study kindergarten.
Oh, there was a kindergarten training school in Charleston of which my
sister Carrie was Vice principal and teacher. So Carrie and Lila had a
kindergarten together for many, many years. They were years of joy. They
loved each other. Each of them was offered a position in the public
schools where the salary might have been triple or quadrupled or much
more. But they loved the work. They weren't working for money.10 They worked for the love of the
children and they did a
And Miss Lila Lockwood did this along side your sister.
Lila with Carrie Then Lila also taught at another kindergarten on St. Phillip Street. I think those were the years when Carrie was in New York.
Marianne Paul.
A lovely woman. She probably was an officer and maybe president for a while of the Business and Professional Women's Club. Lovely, lovely woman, and intelligent.
Her occupation?
Business. I don't know in what particular field. Secretary or filing clerk. I don't know what field. In those days you were always called secretary and did all else. Marianne Paul was phoned to by me on every occasion I wanted a telegram or a letter sent. I could depend upon her to reach others, in the Business & Professional group.
Was there a Paul family then in Charleston?
Oh yes. Her brother did extremely well and was chosen to go to Oxford and study abroad. His folks, this generation today, I know one is a doctor and another had the Paul Motor Company. They have been very prominent people. But Marianne Paul was so lovely. She died years ago; oh, my guess may be bad, it may have been ten or fifteen years ago. Ruth McInnis was a devoted friend of Marianne And there was another one. Ann Mott. Are you going to ask me about Ann Mott?
No. Her name isn't on the list.
Ann Mott, also a business woman. I could always depend on her. When I took over from Miss Frost, I had those names listed. I would phone to each and all, no matter how many names, asking them to phone to others and get new names, so that we would be represented as urging equal rights. Now this may be equal rights that I'm talking about instead of suffrage.
That's all right. I just want a characterization of these women.
Ann Mott was not married. Marianne Paul was not married.
What about Wilhelmina Behlmer?
Wilhelmina Behlmer, once a pupil of mine. I remember her very well. She is living. I never knew of her interest in suffrage until I saw her name on a telegram. So she must have been there at the meeting. Her name is on the telegram. I think you looked at it. She is one of four sisters, one deceased. I taught all of them. They were all very serious girls in school. I believe none was ever married. Whatever they set out to do, they did.
What did Wilhelmina decide to do?
Teacher. All of them. All of them joined the teaching profession.
What about Mrs. Meyer Frank?
Mrs. Meyer Frank was the mother of May Frank and another daughter. I
remember her. She was quite outspoken. Very nice lady. But I knew the
daughters ever so much better. I do not know if they
But you see Mrs. Meyer Frank's name is here, enrolled in the Women's Party after the split.
I do not know what she did. You see, a lot of those people at the meeting were willing to lend their names and help the cause but a lot of them didn't do anything . . . She was a wife of a printer. I remember that.
Mrs. Ansley D. Cohen.
Mrs. Ansley D. Cohen at that time was elderly. What I then called elderly. She might have been in her sixties. She came from a very famous, distinguished family of Moise of Sumter. Her eldest daughter would now be about 92 or 93. Mrs. Ansley Cohen was deliciously or delightfully vivacious. She just spilled over everything. I knew her very well. She was devoted to mother and she would come to this house. I think it was she who asked me, when I was a little girl of three years old, what I now regard as a very foolish question. "What do I want to do when I grow up." Or "What would I want to do." I said "Why of course I want to be a teacher." She laughed. And after she left I said "Mother, why did she laugh when I said that?" Now I realize I'd never been to school. The only teacher I'd had was mother. And so probably worshiping mother naturally I wanted to teach others. But I remember at that time it was customary for elderly people to say "What do you want to do, little girl, when you grow up?" And I'd always give the same response.
I still don't see why she laughed.
Because for a little three year old who has never been to school to already know the profession she preferred was a little bit unusual. But mother had played school with us.
Mrs. W. H. Hanckel. There seem to be two Hanckels. One name follows the other. Rachel Whaley Hanckel's name comes after this one. You don't remember her?
It may have been Marion S. Hanckel - Educator - Head of Kindergarten Training School.
Sadie Workman.
One of my pupils. Brilliant. She died at an early age. I can not remember her taking part in any activity. I think she taught in the Elementary grade.
She must have been very young, but here's her name as a member of the Woman's Party after the split.
I can't remember. She joined the Women's Party. Workman. She, I think, was a close relative of Workman of "The State" Columbia. William D. Workman. They were all brilliant. Had a younger sister, whom I also taught. Very brilliant.
Nina Ottolengui.
Yes. She was one I was speaking of the other day. Was very independent and to help support herself and her family she joined the stage and became an actress. And it was she whom I told you was a devoted friend of Sadie Cunningham. Nina Ottolengui remained an actress throughout her active life.
But she was here in Chaleston for a few years. What could she ahve done Charleston?
I don't know. I think she visited her family. It was her sister, Ella,
who taught eloqution as they called it in those days. But Nina may also
have been with her sister. But I don't know for sure. She
Mrs. Harry Boggs.
Don't know a thing about her, except I heard Lila Lockwood speak kindly of her.
Mrs. C. C. Grimké.
Oh yes, Mrs. Grimké
Her husband must have been a descendent of the well known Grimké sisters.
How could she be a descendent? They were never married.
Angelina was married. Of course her name became Weld. But the Grimké sisters had brothers.
Oh. Of that family. As I remember Mrs. Grimké, she was tall and rather slender. But I cannot see her visually. I don't remember her maiden name.
Here's another Simons. Mrs. Bentham Simons. Marie Small Simons.
Oh, lovely. Marie is a sister of Rachel Small, Captain Logan's wife.
Marie was a younger sister. So now I see probably
Now of course your name is on the list and of course Carrie's name is on the list. And here's Anita's name. and that ends the list.
Is Anita's name on the list? Then she was there. She probably worded that telegram if her name was on the list.
Her name is last. I think that suggests that she did.
She was chairman of writing that telegram. That was
This is from the Charleston Post, December 5, 1917.
Oh, definitely. She had already met Alice Paul and her great workers. That was it. So she came probably to help Sue Frost. Most likely.
My second list here includes the women who took the other position. These are the NAWSA women at the Charleston split. The National American Women's Suffrage Association. Miss Pollitzer, do you remember Maria Gibbes.
Oh, Maria
What about Miss Carrie Jackson?
Carrie Jackson. I haven't thought of that name . . . She was a dignified
lady. Isn't it interesting how these things come back? I can't tell you
a thing about her forebearers, about her life.
Mary Miles.
The Miles that I knew would not sign her name Mary. There was an Elizabeth May Miles. I don't know a Mary Miles.
Jean Robinson.
A wonderful artist. Wonderful, wonderful artist. And a lovable person. I never knew anything about her with respect to suffrage. So many of those people gave their names, you know . . . There weren't many who ever worked for Suffrage and ERA as did Anita, for a full lifetime.
Oh, I understand that. But these were those, I understand, from the newspaper accounts, who were present at the meeting.
Some of them might have gone there to see what it was all about, out of curiosity. But anyway, Jean Robinson was a very wonderful woman. A painter. She came from a very lovely family. Her sister, Robinson—I don't know her first name—married one of the James Allen family of the Allen jewelry store. And she had very lovely children. One of them was one of Anita's best friends.
Anna Gibbes.
I think that was a sister of Maria. Miss Maria taught in public schools. She had two sisters, Anna and somebody else. They had a private school. They might have gone because sister Maria said "Come on, let's see what it's about."
Mrs. W. S. Allen.
That's the sister of Jean Robinson. Lovely woman.
What were her accomplishments?
Her accomplishments? Being a lovely mother. Lovely wife. She was a member for many years of the Civic Club and helped me when I founded Plant Exchange Day on that memorable March 7, 1915. She was on my committee for years. I cannot remember whether she was on the collection committee or the distribution committee. I had about a hundred on my committee in the first year. It was then held at the public schools. It was first Memminger, where I was, naturally, teaching. We had cordons and everything around so nobody would come rush and help themselves to plants. Policemen were there.
It was then that Robert N. S. Whitelaw who later became director of the Gibbes Art Gallery, he, as a little boy, was told either through the media or maybe I telephoned the schools, that he should bring a kodak And the one that could take the best picture, for the loading and the unloading of plants in the Plant Exchange, should receive a prize. And it was Robert Whitelaw who got a prize. A Kodak. For having taken the best picture. And I often think of that in connection with his art work. He died very recently. Maybe a month ago. I met him on the Battery not long ago. Anyway, to go back with your names, Mrs. Willie Allen was a loyal member of the Civic Club. What else she did I don't know.
Belle Heyward.
Belle Heyward as I think of her, very nice lady. It seems to me in some
way she was connected with the Library Society. I cannot be sure about
that, or in what position. But this comes to my mind. She was a devoted
friend of Miss Bragg.12 She was very
conservative, I'm sure. I have no idea her attitude toward suffrage. I
don't
Mrs. Faber Porcher
Oh yes, I know the name. I did not know Faber Porcher except by name.
Miss Addie Howell.
Yes. Lovely. A picture comes definitely to mind.
Emma Drayton.
The Drayton's of course are what you would call the FFVs of Charleston.
Excuse me. Emma Drayton Grimké.
Well, as I say, I knew some of the Grimkés but I cannot tell you if it was this particular Grimké that I knew. I can't visualize her. Unless I can picture a person I don't feel I know them well. All of this was decades ago.
Mrs. John E. Gibbs.
She was original, frank, intelligent. She was a Ball
This is Mrs. John E. Gibbs. This dear old gentleman, being the gentleman that he still was, wanted to walk home with me after dusk. And I said "Oh, but you must not do that." I didn't want to offend him and didn't know what to do. I said "You'd be very sorry if your granddaughter worries about you if she comes home and can't find you. You stay here and open the door for her." He had a wonderful mind. Mother and I were devoted to him. That is the grandfather of Mrs. John E. Gibbs, whom I told you was so wonderful and called mama, cousin Clara and brought the portable kerosene stove to us when we were sick. Oh, so kind. Brought us the oyster stew. She was then about to make her home at 4 Logan Street, which formerly had been occupied by Susan Frost. When Miss Frost moved to the Pringle house, the John E. Gibbs moved in there. Her husband was in the fertilizer business.
Mrs. J. J. Edwards.
Oh yes. I think all I can tell you about her is that she had a very beautiful home which has since been torn down. It was on Meeting Street near what they called Ashmead Place. And that's really all I can tell you. Quite a portly, lovely lady. She withdrew, too?
Miss Mazyck. No first name given.
There were so many Mazycks. I don't know that I could guess at which one. It may have been a Miss Belle Mazyck, probably. Miss Belle Mazyck was connected with the Charleston library society. Very conservative. When people went to the library who did not belong to the library society, she would very kindly tell them until they became a member they could not get books or use the library. But it was all right. Those were library rules. It was a society. I remember the dues in our day . . . Father took a membership so all of us could have the advantages of good books. Then the dues were $4. They gradually went up. I think now they are $8 unless they've advanced and I haven't heard of it. It's a wonderful library, established about 1770.
Natalie Dotterer
The only daughter of a very excellent dentist. Dr. Lewis P. Dottera. They brought her up like a little queen. Mama said she was one of the most beautiful babies ever, except for our Anita. I don't know that she was ever married. I lost track of her. I suppose she passed away many years ago. But you say these are the people who dropped out. And just dropped out in all activity for Suffrage After all, so many of the others were at least telephoned to.
Julia Conner.
Yes, a very distinguished, aristocratic family, the Conners. There are some Connor and some Conner.
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[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
— the geography of Charleston again.
So many of the aristocrats always remained south of Broad Street. Well,
father was living in a house south of Broad Street
Mrs. Robert E. Tucker.
I've known the Tuckers by name. I'm not sure whether the one I knew was a Tupper or Tucker. I can't be sure. But I never really knew them very well. I know the name.
Miss Minnahan.
That's interesting. Adele was her first name. I guess she brought herself
up by her own bootstraps
Mrs. Russell M. Means.
I don't know the Russell part of it, but all the Means were very fine people. I have a feeling she was closely related, perhaps a sister in law, of Coatsworth Means who was the senator for many years. But I really didn't know her. When you said Miss Tucker or Miss Tupper, which I'm not sure of, I think Mrs. Means was a sister of Miss Tucker, Carrie would Know that I think.
Ellen Hayne.
The aristocrat of the aristocrats and lovely, lovely ladies. There was Ellen and another sister and a younger sister. And they lived opposite to us when we lived either on New St. or Savage St. I was about 5 or 6 years old. And they, just like Dubosa Heyward's mother, and others, needed to supplement their income. Ellen taught for some years. She taught at Ashley Hall in the lower grades, in her later Elise Hayne studied music and played very well. And the little one they called "Cutoy" Hayne. Her name was Henrietta. Henrietta was the youngest of the three daughters. I saw Henrietta not so very, very long ago. I better not say whom I think she married because I'm not sure. I know she married. Mrs. Hayne, to support herself, made rolls and sold the most delicious rolls to those in the neighborhood. I was always so glad when my mother bought her rolls. You see, our family were not here during the Reconstruction days. I think father came here just towards the end from Beaufort. Papa came to Charleston about 1870 but of course the war had already been over for some time. The Haynes are closely related, you know, to the great Colonel Isaac Haynes. Distinguished people in the very earliest days of our country. You'd have to get that history straight. I would not pretend to remember all of it. But in the old Exchange Building it was, Isaac Hayne who was captured and put down there in what they called the dungeon, and hanged, I think.
Now this is Hayne. It doesn't have an "s" on it.
You are correct.
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Dora Rubin.
Dora Rubin is one of three sisters, all intellectuals. Very ambitious. Dora is the aunt of Louis Rubin Jr. of Chapel Hill, who has written many books. And the son of Louis Rubin, an electrician who received every National prize any electrician could ever get. I don't know her relation to suffrage. One of Dora's brothers was a great play-wright and another one was editor of "The Evening Post" of Charleston, S.C.
You say these women, these three sisters, were intellectual and ambitious. In what way did they display their intellectuality and their ambition?
Climbing the ladder and getting to the tops of whatever
The last name on this list is Sadie Hanckel.
I'm going to guess that it's Sadie Jervey, who married a Hanckel. The Jerveys were also a very fine family. This is what I mean by very fine. I mean rated by Charlestonians as the old Charlestonians. You see, Charleston has been a very aristocratic cultured city. The new comers are sort of new comers. The ones who were born here and their grandparents have lived here and they, among the fifth and sixth generation are sort of the old Charlestonians. And their family I think are the Postell Jerveys. Well, Sadie Hanckel, or Sadie Jervey as I knew her, was one of three sisters. Sadie and Katie and Ellie and their mother lived right across the street from us, and we used to play together. I think Ellie was the eldest, who married a Hanckel. And their son is Dr. Hanckel, ear, eyes, nose and throat. Because when I went to him I said I knew his mother long before he did.
You might be interested to know that these women who elected to stay with the Equal Suffrage League had the best of intentions. They stated to the newspaper reporter—this was all in the Charleston Evening Post on December 5, 1917—that they intended to have regular monthly meetings of the league. The first would take place in January. And they intended to publish a declaration of principles and policies.
Maybe they did have their meeting. But I was not with them. I was with Sue Frost.
I know, but let me say what else they declared here before their official declaration of principles. I think it's interesting. They will affirm adherence to women's suffrage through the federal amendment. They will also do war work. First, last and always, making the cause of suffrage subordinant to these primary purposes. And they announced their disapproval of picketing.
I'll tell you a great many absolutely opposed picketing. That's the way it was. You know, I wonder if Miss Frost had that list in her possession. If ever she worked with them to get more members for the national women's caucus.
It was in the newspaper.
I never heard any of that. She could have had it.
I thank you very much. You've been a great help today.
I'm glad my brain worked. You know, there are times when things just disappear and you can't get it. But today I feel I could recall a great deal of the 1917 Suffrage meeting.
END OF INTERVIEW
only with the ERA.