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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
G-0049-2, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill”
This is the second of two interviews with Anne Queen, former industrial worker turned director of the YWCA-YMCA at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In this interview, Queen focuses on her perception of the changing political landscape of the South and of the nation during the mid-twentieth century. She discusses the role of left-wing political groups at UNC during the 1950s and 1960s, recalling the formation of the Progressive Labor Club and her decision as director of the Y not to officially sponsor that organization. She goes on to discuss the role of radical politics in the South more generally and argues that the formation of organizations such as the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen and the Southern Regional Council created for religious southerners more palatable alternatives to communism and Marxism. Queen also discusses the role of the Southern Students Organizing Committee and the activities of the Students for Democratic Society at UNC. Queen offers her thoughts on the growing apathy of students on university campuses, the Michael Paul controversy at UNC and its ramifications for academic freedom during the 1960s, and her hope for the future of national politics following the election of Jimmy Carter and Congressman Andrew Young in 1976.
Anne Queen (director of the YWCA-YMCA at University of North Carolina) discusses leftist student political groups at Chapel Hill during the 1950s and 1960s and the evolution of student activism into the 1970s. Additionally, she speaks more broadly about the role of radical politics in the South and offers her thoughts on the state of national politics at the time of the interview.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
In our last conversation we talked quite a bit about the issue of civil rights and the changes that were taking place in the South and in this community in the relationship between black and white, and the achievement of the rights for blacks. But there are some other issues that I'd like us to concentrate on this afternoon, and they may be actually related to the whole issue of civil rights. And these are some issues that would sort of come under the category of what it means to be free, and what it means to defend the freedom of people. This campus, perhaps more than any other campus in the state and maybe more than any other in the South, was a place where groups who many people would think are sort of alien to the South just sort of mushroomed. It was during the late fifties and the early sixties that some of the left-wing groups began to spring up. The one I think of first is a group that was called the New Left. It was organized by graduate students, and one of the graduate students who was very much involved was a Fabian socialist who had come to Yale. He had gone to the London School of Economics, was the son of a don at Oxford. He had gone to Yale to study psychology and came to the University in Chapel Hill to continue his graduate work. There were many people who felt that he came here—and his name was Nick Bateson—because he saw this as a more fruitful field for organizing. But anyway, he was one of the organizers of the New Left group. And there was Charles Parish, graduate student in Latin American history who was from Texas, a graduate student in economics from High Point …
Do you remember their names?
I can't remember the names.
I'm sorry that I can't remember the names of the graduate students other than Nick Bateson. There was one undergraduate student who was very much involved in the organization of the New Left group. His name was Larry Phelps. He came from a textile background in Burlington. His mother worked in a textile mill. He was a very bright student, and he was a member of the New Left group, and then later a member of the Progressive Labor Club, which was organized by Nick Bateson and…Actually Nick was the only person who was not a southerner. Most of the organizers of the Progressive Labor Club were southerners. A student from Spindale… And most of them came from textile backgrounds, and they had become sort of disillusioned with life as they had experienced it.
You mean they were the children of textile workers.
Yes, they were children of textile workers; there were at least three of these students who were children… But there was another student from Chapel Hill; his name was Dennis King. He is the son of Dr. A. K. King, who was Professor in the School of Education and Director of the Summer School. And I don't think he was ever Dean of the School of Education, but he later worked in the Consolidated Office with Bill Friday. Dennis's mother was a sister to Mrs. Parker, whose husband was an Episcopal priest, and he had been very much involved in the radical movement of the Episcopal Church. He had been a priest in Chicago.
He was active in the civil rights movement.
Oh, yes, he's probably one of the best known personalities
Carleton.
Carleton; they transferred from Carleton College. They were very much
interested in civil rights, and I believe they were all three
Episcopalians. And they went to talk with someone in the Episcopal
Church about joining the NAACP, and they were advised against joining
this radical organization. Well, they didn't join the NAACP, but they
became very much involved in the New Left Club and finally joined the
Progressive Labor Club. And the three of them married members of the
Progressive Labor Club. Larry and his wife went to New York, and he was
killed in the Progressive Labor Club office in Harlem. He and his wife
were the only whites who were in the club office that night. And I
remember so well the night that I heard on the radio that Larry had been
killed. The last conversation I ever had with him, we had a friendly but
a vigorous argument about the use of violence for social change. Dennis
and his wife were both injured later, but they recovered.
Was this just a group of people from Chapel Hill who were going, or part of a larger…
It was a group from Chapel Hill. They finally went, and they joined a group in Canada. A Chapel Hill group organized the groups. And they went to cut cane.
Claude Shotts didn't want to say no to Dennis, so he sent Dennis to talk
to me. And I said to Dennis, "Well, now, this decision is not
mine to make. It has to be made by the Executive Committee of the YM-YW,
and I will take that to the Executive Committee, but I'll be sitting in
on that meeting, and my vote will be no. But I think the students should
be able to…"
Was that why you said your vote would be no?
No, because I just felt that if the idea in the first place was not
initiated by the Y, that we shouldn't have a group come in and use the
Y, and I told him so. But I was very frank with him about it, and I
said, "If the students vote to sponsor you, I'll support them
in it, but my vote will be no." And I said, "What you
need is not a respectable organization; if you're going and break the
law, you need
There were a lot of British universities that were, but I don't remember.
Well, he's been very much involved in the more radical politics. His major professor here, John Schopler, was a very good friend of his. And I sort of keep up with Nick through John Schopler. He sees Nick when he goes to England, and he sees the parents. And I used to hear from Nick's parents every Christmas. His parents came here once, and I had a dinner party for them. And it was very interesting. His father was a very eminent scholar in England, and one of the people that his father wanted to have at the dinner party was the older Dougald MacMillan. And I had Dougald and Laura MacMillan here that night, and of course most of the other people were people who'd been involved in the New Left Club with Nick.
I get the impression that the number of people who were active in these radical activities, whether it's in the 1960's or the 1930's or whenever, is actually quite small.
Oh, very small. Just last night I was at Bob Johnson's for dinner, and
there was a girl who studied here from Bynum. And she became a member of
the Progressive Labor Club. Actually she got involved in the Progressive
Labor Club when she went to Union Seminary in New York. She first went
to the Peace Corps in the Philippines, and then she came back and went
to Union Seminary. And she came through one time in Chapel Hill on her
way to Atlanta. And she talked about being a member of this group that
was going to bring the revolution. And I said, "Well, this is
very interesting. How many do you have?" And she said,
"There are five members." This was in Georgia, and
this
This question of how many people are involved in radical activity came up in the discussion in Hillsborough last week, when the jury was out during the play version of the Junius Scales trial. And someone asked Joe Straley, who was there, how many people he thought were involved in the Communist Party in this area in the late forties or early fifties. And he seemed to think that it was at most between a dozen and twenty people.
Oh, really.
And I wonder what you make of the very small numbers of people who are active in radical activity, and the reaction which those small numbers elicit from the population of the state at large.
Well, it's always troubled me that there was so much fear in the face of
this small group of people. I think in this community, and maybe
throughout the South, one of the organizations that offered an
alternative to some of these groups was the Fellowship of Southern
Churchmen and the Southern Regional Council, though the Fellowship of
Southern Churchmen was working more on the cutting edge at that time of
some of the issues that the left-wing groups claimed to be working in.
But I think it offered an alternative. I know that it offered an
alternative in the days when Reinhold Niebuhr and Scottie Cowan and John
Bennett and those people organized it. Because there were people in
Which is designed to show that there is an alternative to Marxism.
That's right, or to communism. There may have been some of those who were students of Marx and who were committed to what would be called Christian Marxism.
But it seems to me that it really didn't make much difference whether the radicals or communists or other kinds of Marxists or even not Marxists at all, that the reaction to these groups is at times almost hysterical.
Oh, it was hysterical. And you know, there were a number of people in
Chapel Hill who demonstrated hysteria. Blood on the Old Well, was another. And of course this was in
response to Southern Conference , which was the organization…
What was Dombrowski's organization?
Southern Conference for Human Welfare.
Yes. The Southern Conference Education Fund was organized when the
Southern Conference for Human Welfare folded up. One of the interesting
experiences that I had during this time was a conference that was held
here sponsored by the Southern Conference Education Fund. Ann Braden,
while Carl Braden was in prison, was travelling for the Southern
Conference Education Fund. And she came to Chapel Hill to
This was after Charlie Jones had left the Presbyterian Church.
Oh, yes. And this was at the Presbyterian Student Center on Henderson Street. Tom Hayden was at this conference. And I felt, in the process of the day's proceedings, that a number of times the First Amendment was violated by a number of people who obviously were very rigid. And they, in the name of the First Amendment, were really very reluctant to have people who disagreed with them speak out. And one of the things that I remember is that Tom Hayden spoke up against the reluctance to have people who presented a much more right-wing point of view. And my appreciation for Tom …
You mean as a less left-wing.
Yes.
Can you give me an example—it doesn't have to involve directly either Jim Dombrowski or Carl Braden—but what you mean by being used by …
Oh, yes. When I worked for the American Friends Service Committee, the Southern Conference Education Fund called a conference at Allen University in Columbia [S.C.]. And they sent out a call listing as the sponsoring organizations the American Friends Service Committee, the Catholic Committee of the South, and the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen, neither of whom he had asked. He had not asked any of them. And when Tartt Bell first called Jim, whom he knew, and told him that he just has not been asked and that the Friends Service Committee will not be used, a priest from the Catholic Committee of the South in Rock Hill called the same day. And Nell Morton was then with the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen. And so none of the groups had been asked. And so that was the experience that I had where I just felt that Jim would use groups if he could. But he failed in that.
How about the Southern Student Organizing Committee, SSOC?
I know some of the people in the regionwide organization. Of course, you know SSOC was very much involved in the cafeteria workers' strike here. SSOC, for the most part, was all white students.
I think that it was designed to be a kind of parallel organization for SNCC.
Parallel to SNCC, that's right. I thought there were some pretty naive
people in that, but there were also some people who were real dedicated.
One of the people who's still in Chapel Hill and who was involved with
SSOC was Scott Bradley. I have tremendous respect
I remember being at a dinner party—I don't remember the exact date of it—but there were some older citizens of Chapel Hill present. And they were talking about the threat they perceived in giving the vote to eighteen- to twenty-year-olders. And this was the time when Nyle Frank was active in Chapel Hill, with his little organization with his little newsletter. And they actually seriously were discussing the possibility of Nyle Frank being elected Mayor of Chapel Hill. I still don't know what to say to people like that.
Well, I don't know what to say to them, either, because they're living in
such an unreal world. I happened to like Nyle Frank very well, but I
just didn't conceive
Are you talking now of fifty people?
You know, I can't tell you how many, but I think there were more.
Even more than fifty, perhaps.
It may have been. I don't know. No, the Speaker Ban Law was not directed against them, because they're the ones who attempted to test it. And I do believe that, had it not been for the insight and the commitment of some of the leaders in student government, that we might not have been able to get the speaker ban issue resolved as soon as we did. Because some of the leaders in SDS, I think, were more committed to confrontation than they were to resolving the speaker ban.
Was there any single incident which provoked the legislature to enact the Speaker Ban Act? I remember something about Herbert Aptheker.
No, Herbert Aptheker was here to test the Speaker Ban.
Yes.
Jesse Helms, I think, takes some credit for the Speaker Ban. It was
introduced in the legislature by a member of the House from Warren
County, I believe. And you know, they suspended the rules and had a
voice vote and passed the Speaker Ban without any debate. And
Were there people here at the University who supported the idea of the Speaker Ban Law?
I'm sure there were. I can't remember any that I can identify now. The
person who I think brought the most eloquent opposition to the Speaker
Ban of anyone in the University was Chancellor Aycock. He went up and
down the state speaking against it. And of course a member of the state
Senate who did an eloquent job of opposing it was Ralph Scott. He voted
against it. And there was a senator from Northampton County named Perry
Martin who had also been Charlotte Observer did a
beautiful job. He had workmen with sharp instruments breaking down a
wall and quoted Robert Frost, who said, "There is something
about a wall that man doesn't like." That was really
devastating. The papers in the state did really an outstanding job of
oppos… And I think that during the Speaker Ban crisis, the
North Carolina press was at its best.
And not just the big city dailies, but …
Oh, no.
… the small town weeklies?
There were small town papers, and I think they had a great impact on some
of the citizens of the state who might otherwise have supported the
Speaker Ban. But this was a great crisis in the life of the University,
and Dr. Graham was in New York then. And during the time when they were
really trying to resolve it, for about ten days he called me every night
at ten o'clock. And he was always giving me instructions about what
should be done, and how the faculty should become involved in this. And
Paul Dickson, who was president of the student body, I learned later was
a distant cousin of Dr. Graham's. And
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Ralph Scott called me one evening to tell me that he was very worried
about the University and all the bad publicity it was getting and that
he would like to talk with some of those young people. And I said,
"Well, Ralph, if you will be at my house at nine o'clock in the
morning, I'll have someone here to talk with you." Well, the
only person I could get was Paul Dickson, but they stayed for three
hours, and Paul sat right there where you're sitting and talked with
Ralph for three hours about why the students had to do what they were
doing. And Ralph really heard him. You know, actually a group of
students became the plaintiffs, and Paul Dickson was one, and his father
was the publisher of a small paper, and he had owned several papers in
eastern North Carolina. Paul was from Raeford. Paul Dickson; Jim
Medford, who was president of the YMCA and who was the son of a member
of the Board of Trustees; Hank Patterson, who is now a lawyer in
Greensboro; they were three that I think of right off. And the girl who
was president of the YWCA agreed to be one of the plaintiffs, but her
family opposed, and she really had a serious inner conflict over
McNeill Smith told me that when he was preparing the case that he had a call or letter from Frank Graham, reminding him that back in the days when Frank Graham was a student here the students had invited Judge Butler's uncle [Marion Butler], the populist leader, to speak on the campus, and the faculty had vetoed this invitation. And the students—this was in 1907 or so—had taken the case to court and won.
Yes, and that, I'm sure, made a great impact on Judge Butler.
Today it's very fashionable to deplore the excesses of students in the 1960's and talk about how wonderful things are today, in contrast. What do you think of that fad?
I don't share that deploring of the excesses. I think many of the
students, as I reflect on them now, were terribly naive. But I think
they made a great contribution to keeping freedom alive. I have a friend
who used to teach at Mercer University in Georgia, and he's now at Wake
Forest in Winston-Salem. And he contends that the only way that freedom
can stay alive is that we continually win a new freedom by bearing
witness to it every day. And even though there were excesses and there
was just incredible naivete, I have deep appreciation for the
contribution that the students made. And as Hayden said, I think that
the
What do you think about the more quiescent atmosphere on university and college campuses now?
I regret it very much. I'll give you an example of how things have changed, and regrettably so. During the height of the protest against the Vietnam War, you could get students' protest groups that would just be a sea of bodies from South Building almost to the library. And classes in many cases were postponed so the nature of the war could be discussed. I think it was the issue of the war that made Tommy Bello's administration as president of the student body. But I'll never forget that during the Cambodian incursion that Charles Jeffress and Buck Goldstein called me, and there were about a half a dozen of us who met over there that night, and, you know, you just couldn't arouse people. And then there was one other occasion in which Nixon… It was after Cambodia; there was another…
Oh, the bombing of Haiphong Harbor.
Oh, yes. About two or three people telephoned each other and discussed
it, but there was nothing that could be done. And I must say that I was
rather surprised and sorry that students didn't get more aroused over
Watergate. I don't think there was such an outcry as I expected, because
I think there should have been. Were you surprised
I'm not so much surprised, and I certainly regret it, how jaded some students seem to be, as if this is something to be expected.
Yes. I just regretted it very much.
Although I do remember, when Senator Ervin—I think it was only a month or so after the Ervin committee hearings were finished in the fall of 1973—he spoke in Carmichael Auditorium, and he packed the building.
Yes. Yes, I remember that. But it was different; just to come and, in a sense, sit passively and listen to a person is different than getting out and really trying to exert some effort to give manifestation to outrage.
You wanted to say something earlier about the case involving Michael Paul.
Oh, yes. In 1965 I worked with the Yale Summer High School in New Haven.
Can you say something about what that program was about?
The Yale Summer High School was organized by Joel Fleishman and Richard
Sewall and Charles McCarthy, and he was in the Admissions Office at Yale
at that time. And it was an effort to bring to New Haven black students
and some whites—but it was predominantly black
students—who had potential but who had not realized the
fulfillment of this potential. And the Yale Summer High School was
different than most of the later Upward Bound programs in that it
brought students from all over the country. And Charles McCarthy helped
form the board. Do
These are freshman students.
Freshman students. He was also editor of the Carolina
Quarterly, and Leon Rooks had written an article in the Carolina Quarterly which was pretty sexy, and somehow
Helms got hold of the Carolina Quarterly. I think the
student's mother got that to him and then talked with Helms about the
assignment to read "To His Coy Mistress." And Helms
started a campaign against Paul, and Michael Paul was relieved of his
instructor responsibilities.
In the middle of the term.
In the middle of the term, yes. And I don't think I've
So that it was someone in South Building who made the decision— before the report, that is—to relieve him of his responsibilities.
Yes. And one of the sad things about this whole case was that Carroll
Hollis was then chairman of the department, but he was on leave, and
Raymond Adams was acting chairman of the department. And there's no one
I am more fond of than Raymond Adams, and I have great respect for him,
but I was disappointed that he… You know, he's a Thoreau
expert, and I was very disappointed that he somehow didn't have the
capacity to come to Mike's defense more than he did, because this was a
real issue of freedom, and I thought… And, of course, after
the recommendation of the committee went to the English Department, and
the report was accepted, and they recommended that his instructorship be
restored and that he be given back his class, and he was. But I think it
probably did great harm to the University, because it was such a
clear-cut issue of freedom. And here again the North Carolina
press… And I think it was a clear case of intimidation by
WRAL. And Jesse Helms would do a commentary on it, and he'd say,
"Now I'm going to rest my case." And the next night
he'd be right back on. And he kept talking about this story in the Carolina Quarterly which "dealt with the
issue of fornication on a hundred-pound icebox." It was called
"The Ice House Gang."
But if you hold the idea you expressed earlier about how the only way to preserve and protect freedom is to exercise it and to test restraints against freedom, then maybe the Paul case was a good thing.
Yes, I think it may have been. And I don't think there's anyone who would have been more willing to test the restraints on freedom than Michael Paul. Oh, no, I agree, and I'm glad you raised this question, that they take a great deal of emotional energy, but I do think that all these issues were in the long run good for us, and good for the University, I think. Because it really does test the people who are committed.
How many people are committed?
I don't know. We don't ever know until we have an issue like this. I think the one thing about the Speaker Ban crisis that I was grateful for is that there were more people who came to the defense of the University than I think many people thought might. I think that was the most serious threat to the freedom of the University of anything that's happened.
I'm thinking back to my own work dealing with the University in the 1930's and 1940's, when the University is under rather regular attack from conservative and reactionary people throughout the state and the region for its liberalism and its social activism, when really, all the time, this liberalism and social activism is espoused by only a relatively small number of people.
Yes, it is.
And I suspect that a large number of faculty members at any time support that activism and liberalism in a passive manner, but they're never really called upon to personally de …
I think there were more people who were called upon personally
I remember during the incursion of American troops into Cambodia, there was that general faculty meeting to which several hundred or a couple of thousand students were outside Hill Hall listening to the proceedings over the public address system. And I don't know who the man was, but he was a professor in the Dental School. And the motion, I think, on the floor of the faculty was whether classes should be suspended for one day to serve as some kind of witness by the University to what was going on in Cambodia. And this professor of dentistry argued something to the effect that if his students missed one day of classes, they wouldn't be the kind of dentists which the University …
That meeting was in Hill Hall.
Yes.
Yes, I remember that. I can't remember his name.
And his idea of education—or at least the education of dentists—seemed to be measured very much in terms of minutes and hours.
Joe, I think really, as I reflect back over the issue of the Speaker Ban and the Michael Paul case, civil rights, I think that the press in this state has been one of the great defenders of freedom. And during this last presidential campaign, I've become very concerned about the American press.
In what way?
I felt that so many of the press, and especially television
The "ethnic purity" controversy.
Yes, the "ethnic purity." And a good example of this was when he was in Miami, and I learned next day that he made an excellent speech on health care. Frank Reynolds reported in ABC news that night an incident that was so frivolous to me. He was to go to a supermarket, and he went to the wrong supermarket; that was the report of Carter's activities for the day. It didn't even mention the health care speech, and PBS the next night did excerpts from the health care speech and did an analysis of it. And this is the kind of thing that really did concern me.
Especially since so many people do rely so heavily on television for the news.
That's right. And I'm wondering. The Center Magazine
has an article in the current issue analyzing the role of the press, and
Donald MacDonald, the editor, wrote this. And he contends that the
monopoly in the press is really doing great harm to the press in this
country, and I'm inclined to agree with him.
I just read in yesterday's Times that some Australian
publishing magnate had bought the New York Post.
I heard that on the news Friday night.
What about the election?
I'm very excited about the election. As you perhaps know, I was a
supporter of Governor Sanford as long as he was in the race.
… I can't think of anything else to say after that. There's
been a lot of talk, of course, about how the South is finally, after a
century, rejoining the union in Carter's election. What do you
I don't know whether I'd put it in those terms or not, but I think there's been a kind of reconciliation. I like to think of it in theological terms.
A lot was made of that back in 1912 when Wilson was elected. Even though he wasn't elected from one of the Southern states in which he lived, there was a lot of talk about how Southerners had returned to their fathers' house up in Washington.
I like to think of it more as an opportunity for reconciliation. But I think one of the things that we must guard against—and I really hope that everyone who really cares about this whole country will guard against it—we must not become arrogant and smug and self-righteous, but continue, I think, to look at ourselves in a critical way. And I think one of the people who can really help us with this is Congressman Andrew Young, who, I think, has helped Carter arrive. He is in Washington today looking over the White House now, getting ready to move in, and …
I think Governor Carter has said as much, that the person most responsible for his nomination, and I suppose for his election, is Andrew Young. And he's of course said many times that the Voting Rights Act is the most important recent piece of federal legislation.
And I agree with him. Did you see Congressman Young on "Issues
and Answers" a week ago Sunday? He was asked about the Plains
Baptist Church incident, and he said that the most segregated hour in
American society is still eleven o'clock on Sunday morning. But he
thinks the real issue of the Plains church is not whether or not blacks
Now I should think that one great difference between Woodrow Wilson moving into the White House in 1912 or even Lyndon Johnson moving in thirteen years ago today, so to speak, is that Andrew Young and Barbara Jordan weren't there to help them move in.
And of course, in spite of all that we may criticize Johnson for, Johnson was a member of this company that I talked about. Because he as a Southerner really pushed the Voting Rights Act. And here again, what many people looked on as the excesses of the sixties pushed him. And I think, going back to this question about the excesses, I think it's the excesses of the young and of some adults that push us to the point where we have to support change.
You do claim Lyndon Johnson as a Southerner.
Yes, I do.
There seems to be some question about that as some people perceive of himself, and think that maybe he even did, as a Southwesterner.
Yes.
Anthony Lewis in his last column—I think it was the day before the election—talked about Carter's plane flying back to Georgia, and the press corps in the plane singing "We Shall Overcome."
Oh, really? You mean when he flew from Atlanta to Plains?
I think he was in California, and he was flying back to Georgia.
Oh, really.
It's hard to think of that being sung on other planes with similar missions.
Well, today is the thirteenth anniversary of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we've come a long way in thirteen years. Thirteen years ago today the country was thrown in such turmoil, and little did any of us dream that we would be getting ready to inaugurate a deep Southerner for President who would take the position that Governor Carter has taken, and he's there only because he took those positions.
END OF INTERVIEW