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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0061, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Gladys Avery Tillett was born in Morganton, North Carolina, in 1891. The daughter of a progressive thinker and state supreme court justice, Tillett grew up in a family where education was of paramount importance. She attended the Women's College (now the University of North Carolina at Greensboro) during the early 1910s. Tillett describes her experiences in Greensboro, focusing on the strong role models she found in her professors. Tillett describes how the faculty and students at the Women's College strongly advocated for the suffrage movement. In addition, she describes her tenure as student government president, in which position she lobbied for more freedom and responsibilities for the women students. After graduating, Tillett worked as a teacher and continued to participate in social reform activities before earning a second degree at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 1917. That same year, she became a war bride and spent the next several years with her husband on army bases in the South. In 1920, Tillett and her husband returned to Charlotte, North Carolina, where she gave birth to their two children. Shortly thereafter, Tillett helped to organize a local chapter of the League of Women Voters in Charlotte. As the president of that local chapter, Tillett worked to register women voters, attempt to motivate them to participate in politics, and provide information about candidates running for office. Tillett also briefly served as the state president of the League. By the early 1930s, the experience Tillett had gained working with the League earned her recognition at the state level, and she became involved in the North Carolina Democratic Party, serving on the State Executive Committee. In 1932, Tillett became involved in the national Democratic Party, first as a delegate to the 1932 Democratic National Convention. She became the state party's vice chairman in 1934, and helped organize the Speakers' Bureau of the Democratic National Committee with Molly Dewson during the 1936 presidential campaign. In 1940, Tillett became the head of the Women's Division of the Democratic National Committee and also was elected as the committee's vice chairman. Tillett remained in that post for ten years, resigning in 1950 to campaign for Frank Porter Graham's senatorial bid.
Gladys Avery Tillett was an advocate for women's suffrage during the early twentieth century and a participant in both state and national politics from the 1920s into the 1950s. In this interview, she describes her education, her work with the League of Women Voters, and her experiences as a leader in the National Democratic Party.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, talking with Gladys Tillett for the Southern Oral History Project.
Well, I've just come from the telephone to hear the good news that we will have again the Status of Women Commission in North Carolina. It existed under Terry Sanford and it was exceedingly effective in informing people on what was being done about the status of women and how we stood on human rights and what needed to be done.
Who was responsible for getting that committee in the first place?
I think probably many people, but Governor Terry Sanford established it
and appointed women on it. When Governor Sanford appointed the
Commission it was made clear that the focus was on legal, political,
human rights for women. Dr. Anne Scott of Chapel Hill made excellent
reports on North Carolina progress. (These reports may be available.)
Governor Moore followed Sanford and changed the focus of the committee
to "Employment and Education." Voit Gilmore (Southern Pines) was
appointed chairman and said such a change limited the report and the
focus of the committee. He held a broad view, speaking in favor of the
Equal Rights Amendment even though the ERA was not included in the
committee's study—just "employment and education." And as far as Voit
Gilmore could go, he was exceedingly effective. In recent months, at a
meeting of the Charlotte Caucus for Women, I made the motion that the
chairman of the Political Caucus in Mecklinburg County take up with the
present Governor the possibility of changing the name of this Commission
to the original name. And so we have been waiting for some weeks, to
find out results of the request. And it was reported to the Caucus that
the name would be changed and that we would probably have the full area
Do you have someone in mind that you want to be appointed?
I just heard it so I haven't had a chance to think about that. But I think that we would hope to have a number of exceedingly qualified and interested women; hopefully a qualified woman will be appointed. I don't know how soon that will be done; no one can say.
Well, let's go back and start with you from the beginning. Tell me about where you grew up, your family, etc.
I grew up in a small town—fifteen or more thousand population—Morganton, North Carolina. It's approximately seventy miles from Charlotte. I was reared in a family which had an interest in public affairs. My father was a lawyer and then a Supreme Court Justice. And my mother had an interest in politics. She was a graduate of Asheville Female College, which was a Methodist college, and both parents believed women should be educated. Not everybody emphasized education of women but I knew from early life that girls should have education. My father took me to hear a man speak on women's education in our town. Afterwards, he said to me (I was quite young) that he believed girls ought to be educated and he hoped that I would sometime go to Women's College at Greensboro. At that time, he wouldn't have suggested the University, because no women were allowed except those who lived in Chapel Hill, and were daughters of UNC faculty … maybe some teachers, but it wasn't open to young women generally.
Was your mother related to the Spencer Loves by any chance? Her maiden name was Love.
No, her maiden name was Thomas. She was Sarah Love Thomas. She was called Sally by friends. I think I have heard her say that her great-grandfather named Love founded the town of Waynesville, N.C. in Western North Carolina. Her father was William H. Thomas who served in the N.C. State Senate a number of years. He was interested in getting across the mountains by railroad to Western North Carolina and he was a friend of the Indians.
Where did they live?
The Thomas family lived in Sylva, N.C. out beyond Asheville and Waynesville. I think Duke University has a thesis written about him, William H. Thomas. My mother spoke of his being tutored by an educated German who came to that part of North Carolina and his mother was able to get that tutor's services.
What did her father do for a living?
Well, I know he owned land and was a man of some means and owned fine trading stores. He did much to arouse interest in good roads, and spent a number of terms in the North Carolina Senate. His mother was a daughter of Lord Baltimore's brother.
A farmer?
No, he was a businessman, and was successful. A woman in the Duke
University Library wrote a dissertation on him when getting her Ph.D.
The Library at Duke has the professor's thesis. He owned a good deal of
land in that part of Western North Carolina, and was progressive—very
much interested in the founding of a railroad across the mountains, a
forward-looking idea in those days. And those who opposed it, I have
heard, called
When was this?
Oh, way back. He really should have been my great grandfather. He was much older than his wife, my grandmother. But he was a very interesting personality. His mother was a Calvert and niece of Lord Baltimore. He did much for mountain action and was interested in good roads, as I have read in Western North Carolina history.
What did he do for the Indians?
Well, when they were being driven west, you know, he did all he could to
save them. There is a play written about it, Unto These
Hills. It is put on during the summer months in Western North
Carolina. In it, he's the man who went to Washington in support of the
Indians. His mother was related to one of the presidents—Zachary Taylor,
I think. I think maybe that gave him contact that was helpful to him in
trying to do what he thought should be done for the Indians.
So your mother was interested in public life, probably because of him.
Possibly. I have heard her say her ancestor, Robert Love, founded
Waynesville and as a political leader gave Andrew Jackson every vote in
Haywood County when Jackson ran for President. So political interest was
in her background. And my father was in public life. So that makes a
difference. The first time I remember as a child anything of a political
nature happening, I recall that my father was holding court or was at
court
Now when did he become a Supreme COurt Justice?
Before I was born or can remember. I just don't happen to know the date off hand. And he practiced law. It was a family in which public affairs were discussed. My father married my mother after the death of his first wife who was the sister of Stonewall Jackson's wife, and the daughter of the President of Davidson College. In the second group of children, there were three of us, a brother and two sisters; I'm the only one living. My father was quite a public spirited person who participated in North Carolina public and political life.
They were Democrats?
Yes. The South was mostly Democrat at that time.
Do you remember them talking about the issues of Reconstruction?
They discussed the hardships of the Civil War, the sadness of the death
of his brothers who were shot by Kirk's raiders near Morganton or fell
at Gettysburg or were captured and imprisoned. I learned early the
horrors and sorrows of war. Albert Coates of Chapel Hill wrote an
article on my father's brother, Colonel Isaac Avery, who fell at
Gettysburg leading
I went off to Greensboro after attending public schools. I was sent to the preparatory department at Women's College (State Normal at that time).
So in the high school grades you went to Greensboro.
Yes.
And you'd been in private school?
I went to kindergarten, one of the early ones in North Carolina, then to private school, and then to public school. I had two years of prep and then three at Women's College. Then I went to Chapel Hill after teaching a year.
So there was never really any question about whether you would go on to college? You were always supposed to do that.
Yes.
Did you have other brothers and sisters who went to college?
My sister was graduated from Women's College and my brother was graduated from the University of North Carolina. College was a way of life in the families of both parents.
When you went to Women's College, did you finish your degree there or at Chapel Hill?
I got an A.B. at Chapel Hill, after first teaching a year in Winston-Salem. I taught high school English and Latin.
What did you plan to do? What were you studying?
History was my major. I was always interested in history and political
science. I was interested as well in Sociology and Philosophy. My
Who was that?
Harriet Elliott. Dr. Harriet Elliott. She was a close friend and an outstanding teacher who made an impact on all her students. She had a dynamic personality—got her Master's Degree from Columbia University in New York. There she met national suffrage leaders. She was deeply interested in political rights for women and, just as importantly, political participation. I was always very close to her through life. She was always so interested in everything I did in public life and in political life; she kept in touch, encouraging me to give leadership.
Was she actively involved in the suffrage movement?
Oh, yes. She was a friend of the leaders of it. And she brought that spirit of interest in suffrage to her classes. It was as progressive as any college in the country on suffrage.
Dr. Jackson, my history teacher, was another progressive thinker. I think he and Dr. Elliott were two of the very able teachers at Women's College and in North Carolina. As I look back, there were others, in many departments. Several of the faculty were Quakers—my Chemistry and Math teachers, and the College Librarian, Miss Annie Petty, who was also the first trained librarian in North Carolina. Dr. W.C. Jackson later became President of Women's College, and Dr. Elliott will be in the Biographical Dictionary coming out this year by Dr. Powell in the UNC Library.
Both Jackson and Elliot gave their students a broad outlook. For example,
in one of her courses, I was given the task of writing a paper. The two
Was it in college that you were exposed to the ideas of the women's rights movement for the first time?
The ideas weren't new. Both my parents were great book and newspaper readers; many people in public life were friends; I was accustomed to discussion of public issues. So there was certainly nothing very shocking about it; it had been a part of my life and understanding. I had not been reared to think anything other than what I was learning in college in courses from Elliott and Jackson.
So when you went home and talked about the things you were learning in your classes your parents were very sympathetic …
Nobody was shocked. They were interested in my own interest in public issues and history.
Since Women's College was a state college and the only state college for women at that time, legislators and governors, etc. often visited. I'm sure they were encouraged by the President of the college to come because they decided on the appropriations of course. So frequently we had them. And some of them who came seemed very old-fashioned from our youthful viewpoint. And I think that made us much more interested and rebellious when they would come and, as they said, "look into your beautiful faces."
And make speeches about the proper place of women.
Yes, and always with the full understanding you could see in their words
and expression that we were not interested. You can
imagine that that aroused in the group some resentment. I remember one
came and he was so vigorous in his protest against women voting that
when he left we just had a parade on campus. I don't think he's still
living. We just burned him in effigy.
When was this?
I don't know exactly the year right now. But it was before 1917, of course. There was quite an interest in voting among the students.
Among your schoolmates, most of your friends were sympathetic towards the suffrage movement …
Oh, yes. You see, we'd had exceptional teaching. I don't know whether
there were very many other colleges in the South that had a faculty with
as broad an outlook. We had a political science teacher, young and from
Columbia University and fresh from acquaintance with people who were
members of the women's movement. We also had a woman
college physician, Dr. Anna Gove. When she came south to Greensboro
there were only three or more women physicians in the country at girls'
colleges. We were told that the wife of the President of Women's
College, Mrs. McIver, had been eager to study medicine. Dr. Cora Strong,
Mathematics teacher, gives credit to Mrs. McIver for the fact that the
then State Normal was one of several women's colleges that had a woman
physician at that time. (Vassar also had one, and a few others in the
whole country.)
How do you account for Greensboro being such a good women's college in that way, such a progressive college?
The teachers, the teachers. There were many outstanding faculty members in all areas—Science, English, Latin. For example, Dr. Jackson had done summer settlement work in New York when he was a young man coming along. It may have been in vacations, I don't know. But he wasn't just a local person in his outlook. In my junior year, he decided that during summer vacation, three girls would be sent up to New York to participate in a form of settlement work called Daily Vacation Bible Schools, and report to the student body on the experience. I happened to be one of the three. This was the beginning of a movement to have day care centers in churches. He took the president of student government at Greensboro, the president of the YWCA, and the young woman who was to be president of student government after I finished, you see.
You were president of the student government?
Yes. I was elected by the student body, the first president of student government; I organized it. It came just before my senior year, and so my senior year was the organization of it. And of course student government during its development took all the blame everytime somebody walked on the grass. The conservative faculty would say, "Well, I knew this would happen when we got student government." But many, many of the faculty did praise our progress and responsibility and encouraged us.
Was student government an unusual thing in colleges in general at that time?
Not at Chapel Hill. Not at boys' colleges. I suppose they were expected
to be good at it. I think it was unusual at southern girls' colleges.
But some of the faculty opposed it.
Well, a few of the older members were dubious. I don't know to what extent. I didn't go to the faculty. I don't know the extent to which they wondered if we could succeed. But it was a help to have many of the faculty expressing confidence. There were a number who were very enthusiastic about it. There were many who very much wished to see us succeed. But you always have a few conservatives, you know, in any progressive movement.
Were there issues within the college that the … that the student government was in opposition to the faculty or to the administration about?
Well, I think we tried to bring about more freedom for the girls, but I don't think any faculty thought us in opposition to the faculty itself.
In social …
In that day social life of girls was more carefully guarded at home and
college… I recall that going to the city, I guess Greensboro wasn't a
city then… going to town, I guess you might say… But at that time we
went under certain rules and regulations. I think one of the most
amusing, as I look back, was that we could … the girls could "speak to a
young man" but not "engage in conversation." And I never quite
understood how we could speak to them but not
No conversations with any young men? Or only on certain occasions?
Well, young men could come and call. And we always had a chaperone near the reception room where the callers came … I don't know what you'd call it, maybe parlor in that day … Miss Kirkland was in charge of that part of our lives, or social lives. She was sympathetic. I was very fond of her. But I guess to a certain extent old school, and quite proper, and with great dignity. But we, we could have callers. And then we had, we had special occasions and then some, maybe … But you could invite a young man to these special occasions and the atmosphere was friendly to social life and, of course, chaperoned.
What changes did you want to make?
Well, we really had as our aim … to give the girls more responsibility. We thought students would understand better than elderly faculty the problems and discipline of students. We thought it would help to visit northern colleges. The next year the college sent the girl who followed me north to see how girls conducted student government where it had existed a longer period. Later, girls got copies of the rulings at northern colleges and other colleges, and they tried to follow their progress and study their rules and move forward as rapidly as the faculty agreed. Take a broader view and assume responsibility …
Were there specific changes that you … ?
Well, the… see we had a committee of officers from the student government
who considered whatever was done by girls. And they began to be the
legal body. Some things were discussed with the
You started to talk about going north to work in the day care program of children.
Oh we did.1
Well, had you been out of the south before?
I'd been to Washington but … I'd never been to New York—none of the three of us had.
What was that experience like?
It was an interesting experience for us. And Dr. Jackson called us in. I suppose we had certain characteristics of southerners, particularly trained in manners and courtesy. And he said, "Girls … " He said "You're going up north and they may be more assertive than you are, but whatever you are asked to do, show them how well you can do it. You are all good executives." And so we arrived… no matter what they asked us to do, we did it. All ready to push forward.
And did you find yourself being very aware of yourself as a southerner?
No, not at all. Of course, our accent was cause for comment, but we decided it was as good as what we heard and forgot the matter. We weren't aware of anything, except that we were there to do a job and capable of doing it. And we did it. Our school was one of the very best and well-attended through our efforts. We had our vacation school in an Episcopal church up near 100th St… We would go out—cover a number of blocks in the general neighborhood of the school—and we'd find little children out on the streets. And you had to build the school yourself. We'd go out and just see the children playing on the streets and say, "We're having a summer school here. We are going to weave baskets; we are going to make hammocks." I'd taken lessons in some of these things before we went. "And we're going to mold things," … etc., etc., you know, the children were very responsive and we had quite a large attendance.
Were they white children? Or black?
I don't think there were blacks in that area to any great extent. The ones we had were, as I recall… I would say practically all white because of the locality it was in. They were of various religious backgrounds, many foreign family backgrounds.
Did the women you went to college with go on to have careers and be involved in public life?
Practically all of Woman's College graduates taught in public
schools.2 North Carolina had many
public spirited women. It equal representation in their party set-up before
many other northern states. I think North Carolina was the most
progressive, in my opinion, as I think back on it, of the southern
states. Our legislature had been slow in supporting votes for women, but
when it came under Woodrow Wilson, North Carolina moved right along in
the 50-50 plan of party organization. The governor appointed a national
committee woman and we had state vice-chairmen—which are the two top
officers. We did not go immediately into the 50-50 political party set
up. But we started early working on it. In 1932 North Carolina had four
women delgates to the Democratic National Convention (they voted for
Roosevelt). The League of Women Voters had an early national meeting in
Baltimore. Mrs. Catt and national party women leaders were there. Lady
Astor was speaker. She had a high post in the government of her country,
England. My husband suggested that with all my interest and background I
ought to go up and attend this. This was the National League of Women
Voters. It was very stimulating and he was very sympathetic to my
interests. And I went. And it was really very exciting, as you can
imagine. All these women and oh $a tremendous crowd. Even women who
might not have been all for voting, etc. Every seat taken and of course
Lady Astor was of great interest, a woman in high office, few at that
time. And then the women leaders of the two political parties—Emily
Newell Blair represented the Democrats. At the moment I can't think of
the name of the Republican women's leader, but both party leaders were
there and were jointly interested in getting women to participate in
political parties. There was a large sign over the
This was about 1920 or 21, right after suffrage?
Yes, right after suffrage won. I can't remember the precise year. It took a little while I'm sure to organize this meeting and get it going… It was the early twenties. As soon as it could get going, I'm sure. Get it organized and set up. And then they had a stimulating program and speakers and people who had participated. Many of the names that you know in the womens movement.
So that was really your first contact with the national leaders of the women's movement.
Yes, though I consider Dr. Harriet Elliott a national leader.4 We'd read about them and knew about their stand and achievements and Miss Elliott talked about them and our families knew about them. But this was seeing politics for women getting under way, you see.
That was such an exciting time. Let me go back a little bit … What was your first public involvement? Were you publicly involved in the suffrage movement besides just reading about it?
I was at Woman's College and I was involved, we were all
Did you petition the legislature?
No, but the legislators were visitors at the college and spoke to us in
College Chapel, usually assuming that we were not for votes for women,
but the sentiment of the student body was in favor of votes for women.
It was very strong due to our political science professor, Harriet
Elliott, and our U.S. history professor Dr. W.C. Jackson. Age of
maturity I guess was a little farther along. But it was an excellent
meeting. Later on in years I was to hear Mrs. Catt, you know, a skillful
organizer, and after suffrage won, when she presided in a meeting such
as the Baltimore meeting, it was well organized and presented to an
interested audience… there was wide interest in it … well, the history
of the long years of the women's movement was presented by those who had
worked to bring it about and all were urged to join the League of Women
Voters to become informed and then to participate in the party of their
choice and stand for things they believed in… I think what most people
don't realize, which I realized at the time (women were not in the
political party set up) the first step in getting into the political
party of your choice was to get in, and men leaders must decide to appoint youths to any office of leadership. You see, most
people don't realize that all women had was the right to vote, period.
And that's pretty well on the outside looking in. I got my county
Democratic chairman to appoint about 15 women as precinct members of
their respective precincts. Later I organized the first county League of
Women Voters in North Carolina.
Where were you living at this time?
Charlotte, N.C.
So you had gotten married right after college? During college?
No, I graduated, taught a year, and then went to Chapel Hill where I received my A.B.
Where did you teach?
I taught in Winston Salem, in the high school. Latin and English.
Then you went to Chapel Hill.
Yes. There were about thirty young women attending UNC.
Is that where you met your husband?
No, I met him … when I was visiting in Charlotte… I was at Woman's College… I went to visit friends in Charlotte and he asked my hostess if he might meet me. He had heard of me through friends.
You met him through Frank Porter Graham, then.
Yes, Frank and my husband's brother came on a mountain trip one summer. I don't believe I mentioned that. Two friends and I taught in the mountains of North Carolina. Mrs. Louis Graves—you may know her from Chapel Hill—and Senator Sam Ervin's sister, Catherine Ervin, the three of us took on a mountain school at Plumtree, North Carolina. Somebody else was scheduled to go and Dr. Ben Lacy was head of the whole southern Presbyterian church organization in Richmond, and the school was supported by the Presbyterian church. We heard he was trying to find someone to take the place of a girl who had planned to go but found she couldn't. And we happened to hear of it because we had known her at Woman's College. And so we decided we would offer to go. And it was in Western North Carolina, and 14 miles from a railway. We got off the train and spent the night at a mountain hotel and then went by horse and carriage to Plumtree School.
Now were you going to teach for a year or just for the summer?
Summer. Summer school. Three sections. Primary, the intermediate and the high school. And Mrs. Graves taught the primary and I taught the intermediate and Miss Ervin taught high school.
Where did you live?
We lived in the school. Yes, it was a Presbyterian school where boys were sent. You see it was a boarding school—boys from cities and other states—some of the boys were sent by churches in big cities—some from North Carolina… but there were also mountain boys whom the school served… The church was interested in teaching and training them… You see it was so isolated in the mountains. And so we taught six days a week and Sunday school on Sunday. We had a full schedule but we were young. So that was an interesting experience in contrast with what I had done before. This was before I'd finished college, and before my later experience in New York. I was the only girl who had both experiences, in the mountains and in New York. It gave me two close ups you might say to the problems of people who needed help in a big city and also people in isolated areas.
Well, growing up in Morganton, did you not realize how much poverty there was in the mountains. Did you identify yourself with …
Morganton was not in the mountains. And there were many old
families—people of position and education. We had had public schools
from early grades up. And that was a little different. Prior to public
schools, excellent private schools in Morganton. Also Morganton had the
N.C. School for the Deaf and N.C. State Hospital, which added
But you were probably oriented more toward Greensboro and Raleigh. Your father … you didn't have a sense of yourself as a moun-… somebody from the mountains.
No. Morganton is in the foothills. It's not in the mountains. It's about
65 or 70 miles from Charlotte and it was an old town, and families had
been there as early settlers… My great grandfather Waightstill Avery
settled there. He came down from New England. He was a graduate of
Princeton. Graduated at the head of his class. And I used to hear my
family say that when he married a woman I think in New Bern in Eastern
North Carolina … I think they first lived there. Anyhow, they moved.
They liked … they saw the rolling country there. And my folks used to
laugh and say the Waightstill Averys had to leave some of their family
possessions behind, but they brought all their books.5 And my aunt used to say that people came often
to their home to read papers and books, I suppose, because there were no
libraries, you see. I know my father was sent to prep school in eastern
Carolina (Bingham Preparatory School) and then on to the university. And
I think all of his brothers attended U.N.C… Their grandfather had been
one of those interested in founding UNC… a number of them were killed in
the war between the states. They are on the Civil War memorial
Right. Well, so you met your husband then when he came up to visit …
No, I met him when I visited in Charlotte, N.C.
He had heard of you from friends.
When I came down on the visit, he called up before I got there and asked my hostess who was conntected with my family—not quite a relative but was really like it—if he could take me to a play. He came to see me. So that was the beginning of our acquaintence.
Well you had not had a chance to be courted by very many boys, had you.
Well, you live in a small town, you know everybody. There is social life, and you visit college friends, etc., etc.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I never thought of myself as courted, anyhow.
So when did you marry?
We were married in 1917.
After you had graduated from college?
Yes. I graduated in June from UNC at Chapel Hill and was married in July. And he went in to take officer's training for the First World War in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Ah, he went right into the army.
Yes, we lived in a number of army camp areas. So I had a view of the country which in itself was an education. We were stationed at Chattanooga, Tenn., Plattsburgh, N.Y., Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Md. And all of that… really, for a short time we were stationed in Charlotte, which was quite … accidental that it happened so. Names were drawn for location.
So you did not teach then, or work…
Well, I taught one year before I went to Chapel Hill.
But after you were married?
No. Couldn't have, moving from army camp to army camp. I had to be able and ready to move according to my husband's military orders, on short notice, and we assumed we would have only a brief time together if he were sent to the European front, in European war locations.
When did you settle down?
I don't remember the exact date.
He had already graduated from law school.
Oh yes, he was already practicing. He was practicing when he met me. Yes, he was practicing.
He was a bit older…
At that time… everybody was very patriotic in regard to World War I and he left his office and went on to war. We went to Chattanooga, where he was trained. And then he was sent to various camps… He was a first lieutenant and then promoted to a captain. He was assigned to the training of young officers. He did not go abroad, but he was in the army several years. I came home before he did… The epidemic—many expectant mothers died. It was safer for me not to risk exposure. So I returned to Charlotte in advance of the birth of our baby.
So, When he returned to Charlotte he went back to his law practice…
We were married and he had closed his office, then we went to Chattanooga to the officers training camp… one of the early war marriages… People thought it was taking chances to marry a man headed for the European War. Think of getting married in war time! Just really a chance for a girl to take.
You should have waited until the war was over, according to some people?
Yes.
But people… before World War II there was a great rash of marriages.
Well, later on in World War I there were, but ours was quite early and
I'm sure that a lot of older people were dubious about the wisdom of the
step. But he did survive,
I'm just wondering whether you were thinking of having a career after you were married or did you just… what did you think you were going to do with your life…
In wartime, life is a day at a time, moving from place to place and never knowing one night what was going to happen, or whether my husband would be sent overseas. Life was very uncertain and unpredictable. I learned to hope for the best but take what came. I came back before he got out of the war. And my child was born
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[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
I'm thinking about after the war was… you came back… you had your first baby, then, before…
No, he got back before the baby was born. We lived near his parents until we could get settled and get started again. Then I had another baby. They were about sixteen months apart, which was a great asset when I got into politics because nobody could say that I didn't have a family. I had two…
Very important, that's right. So you had already had two children before you started getting involved in…
Well, I guess you'd say so, although I was already interested in public affairs.
You went to the meeting in Baltimore and came back to work in the League of Women Voters.
Yes. My training at college was a natural forerunner of interest in the League of Women Voters. And the League offered, of course, an opportunity and we began the League of Women Voters… I had the first candidates meeting in North Carolina, for example, where opposing candidates told what they stood for. More than one candidate—the mayor's race was non-partisan. But—the mayor's race. But I knew, I'd learned, you see, at the National League of Women Voters meeting about candidates meetings, which were planned for women coming and hearing them and having an opportunity to know and evaluate their stand on public issues and make a decision on whom to vote for. Which would seem normal now but which was new then. So the first candidates meeting that I put on, the first candidates meeting in North Carolina, was for the mayor of Charlotte—a race between two men for the office.
Were you the first state president or the first …
No, I was not the state president… I was the state president later, but I began as local president in Charlotte.
Who was the first state president?
It was Gertrude Weil. She gave financial support to the League and meant a great deal to its devlopment and was a wonderful leader in North Carolina. (It was a great privilege for a young woman to be associated with Gertrude Weil, Dr. Elliott and Mrs. Palmer German.)
So you knew Gertrude Weil. Did you work with her?
Yes. She was a wonderful woman, educated in one of the northern colleges, I think. And I've wondered where her papers are. Have you ever tried to get any from her sister? She…
Where is her sister?
Wilmington, and I can't at the moment think of her married name… she was
Janet Weil.
Well, tell me some of the issues that the League of Women Voters worked on.6 What were some of the…
Well, the mayor's race was just two men running for public office and
each campaigning on who was best qualified. And so I decided that we
would try to have a candidates meeting, and after the women had heard
them they would be better equipped to vote for them, and I decided that
I would go to the various leaders of the community. (I talked it over
with my husband.) And got them, the political men leaders, interested in
it. And so I did. And I talked to the party leaders and I told them we
would like to have this meeting to give the women an opportunity to see
and hear the candidates and increase interest in registration. And they
thought it was an excellent idea and all of them agreed to it. So we
planned the meeting in a public meeting hall, had it reserved and got
all set. And then the campaign got tense and feeling ran high. And the
political leaders decided that we better not have the meeting. So… they
didn't come to see me. They went to see my hus|band. not
to have the meeting. And of course there was silence. He didn't say
anything else. He just brought me the message. I thought about it a
little while and I said, "Well, I am not willing, because I went to
every one of them, talked it over with them and told them I wanted the
women to have the opportunity to hear the people they were going to be
called on to vote for. And I won't stop it." And he said,
"Congratulations."
Well he was really supportive of you, then.
Oh very, very.
Why was he so willing to have you involved…
Well, he… I think he was probably the most, one of the most public spirited people I've ever known.
He ran for the school board early and he, his committee, their project
was the first Negro school, black school which was built of brick, so it
was not a fire hazard. It was the first brick school building for
blacks—most of the black schools were wooden and my husband felt all
school buildings should be brick, black and white. He was elected and
that was his project. They wanted to name the school for him but he felt
it was not appropriate for a person who was on the board to have a
school named for him… And I was always sort of sorry that he didn't
since it was the first black school built for safety. Going
How many women were in your local league? Was it the county or what?
We called it Mecklenburg County League of Women Voters, and I put much time into getting women who were respected leaders, and genuinely interested.
How many women?
I'd have to go back… I couldn't say… but it was a creditable number and members from other organizations attended meetings… we… I worked hard. I got women to serve as officers on the board—many of them outstanding in their own right.
50 women?
On yes, I feel reasonably sure there were 50 women. I might be able to find you this. But I had… there was the president and then the vice president, secretary, treasurer. We had, you know, the usual set up. And then I tried to get women of other organizations—women of influence and standing in the community, who shared our views on women's civic responsibility. And therefore, they themselves were leaders and they gave an added support to the movement.
What kind of women would be considered women of influence and standing?
Well, they were women who had stood for women voting and had taken part
in such things as the YWCA, AAUW,
Would you say it would be more women's positions in women's organizations than their position as say the wives of prominent men?
I don't think the husbands played a part… most of them were married, but many had responsible positions or were leaders in other groups or organizations… one of the first secretaries… Miss Carrie McLean, a lawyer, was active in the community. A woman who had had a very interesting life. She'd graduated from a Baptist college. Grown up without great means in life. And as a young girl had written letters to a missionary and told her about how she longed to have an education. And the missionary would write back and she'd write and they wrote for some years. And she was a very very able young woman. And she, when she got old enough to go off to school the missionary told her that she was going to send her to the Baptist college. So she had gone and made a splendid record and then taken secretarial training. And she was one of my allies in public work.
And she was a secretary?
At first she worked as a business secretary but then she studied law at
night and passed bar exams. Later she
What were the politicians afraid of? What were they afraid would happen if they had the meeting?
Well, I… they were false fears. It was something new in political
meetings. They were dealing with an unfamiliar political meeting and
they were fearful of the unknown. It was most successful—very well
attended and both sides thought it a success.7 It contributed to getting out the vote. But we had it and
it had excellent publicity. We were pleased we had established the fact
that candidates meetings could be held and the voters could hear them
discuss issues. It had been a success. And we were assured we could move
on and have other meetings in the future. You see, later
So you were trying to educate women about the issues and increase interest in voting.
Sure, the same political issue education the League does now. I mean, this is the thing the League succeeded in doing. We were working for the things we believed in and we wanted the women to know what these candidates stood for and then women would hopefully make their own decisions.
Did you work on any issues like the Sheppard-Towner Maternity Act, the city manager form of government or women's work, wages. Did you take a stance on those kinds of issues and work on them?
Yes, we did. A very conservative local businessman reacted adversely to
our interest in wages for women's work. And there was a debate at the
time on the election of city council. We took a stand. See, we had at
that time Mrs. Palmer German who was active in Woman's Club and also
politics. Women's organizations lobbied at the legislature. Mrs. German
was a leader in Raleigh. She was really a very able person. She'd been
state president of the women's clubs and she was a leader on issues and
all the women's club and other organizations had a legislative program…
one thing, dormitories for women at UNC, raising the age of consent from
14 to 16, admitting girls to UNC before their junior year. We had women
who were quite
Well tell me the story of how that integration came about. What kind of obstacles you ran into. When you first organized the League of Women Voters were you intending to get inside party politics?
I had every intention of doing this. The men were not aware of just what
steps or course women would take in the League… they didn't exactly know
what the League of Women Voters wanted and they were very respectful…
people running for… because some of the women were from influential
families and were influential in their own right, and they had their
families behind them. My father-in-law, my husband, were lawyers of
standing in the state and in the community and we … though we proceeded
tactfully, we felt self-assurance. We gave thoughtful consideration to
issues and our stand on them. And the more I thought about it, realized
that
Right, what did you do about the poll tax?
My recollection is that women did not pay poll tax. The poll tax was abolished earlier in North Carolina than in some other southern states. I recall hearing a political leader say that the candidates running for sheriffs opposed it. It interfered with their races. I'll try to check this data. It interests me. Later the question came up in other southern states when I was national Vice Chairman. I was always opposed to it… I don't ever remember any problem with the poll tax. They must have let us off. But I'll look that up and find… But I remember no, there was no hurdle to take in that. That was…
The poll tax … you weren't aware… or you didn't discuss that as a discriminatory…
The poll tax was discussed and was considered discriminatory by the
League of Women Voters… Well I was so glad to get in. If you can get in
then you can talk about what you want to get done. But the first thing
to do is to get
So your first registration campaign was successful?
Very successful. And we had very good publicity… And it, and some women
wouldn't. One woman was really against registering. She said, "Oh, I
couldn't register. Oh, I couldn't register." And then in a year or two
more her son ran for public office and the whole family registered.
But you really didn't feel much opposition from women, then, or men either for what you were doing?
To get voters to register? No. There was public interest but not
opposition. Some of the men contributed to the League of Women Voters
and were interested and cooperative. Candidates running for office were
tremendously interested in getting voters registered. It didn't seem
wrong at all to most people. As voters our requests to public officials
were given respectful consideration. They did not have enough
collections of garbage in Charlotte at one period. Charlotte women
decided that it would help matters to go to city hall and appear in a
body. And so we requested to see the city officials and a large group of
women visited the city hall
Tell me a bit…
You've been asking for much in detail.
I know… when you became state president of the league of women voters and other things that you can think of in the twenties…
In the early days we had a state legislative council… she served a short
… led by Mrs. Palmer German, the woman I said was an able leader with
high principles and understanding. She was chairman of a legislative
committee in Raleigh. The League of Women Voters joined with other state
organizations of women in support of legislation of special interest to
women. She had a young lawyer there who kept up with the lagislature and
lobbied for the women's legislature. And one of the measures women
supported and secured passage was on raising the age of consent from 14
to 16. This was of special concern to those interested in young black
girls. During each legislative session women's organizations pushed for
passage by the legislature… A dormitory for women students at UNC is
another example of the attainment of women's rights. I was active in the
1928 campaign. My husband and his family were opposed to religious
prejudice in voting
You had probably never been a member of the WCTU.
No… I had spoken to WCTU as president of the League of Women Voters, because they were always interested in responsible citizenship and women's participation in voting, but I had not joined. I spoke to many women's organizations on matters of concern in the League of Women Voters' programs … in the area of human rights… and women's responsibility as voting citizens. My father-in-law and my husband were liberal in their thinking and the family approved… to hold people's religion against them was just very much against… the whole family became involved in upholding religious freedom. I was vice chairman of the precinct in which all the Tillett family lived. And I worked very hard. Of course, I felt… at that time everything you did was a test of women's taking responsibility in politics. So I just… nobody suggested that I go from door to door in our precinct but it seemed the best plan of checking and I did go door to door.
You mean women had to prove themselves?
Yes, oh absolutely. So I just went from door to door and talked to them. You know, did my best. And the only precinct in Mecklenburg County that went for Al Smith was my precinct.
Is that right?
Oh, it put our precinct on the map, and the whole
When was this? 1932?
Before 1932, because I was … it was after 1928.
Were there any other women on the state executive committee?
There had been a woman who preceded me but I think I was the only one from Mecklenburg County when appointed… I'm not sure about predecessers… As time went by the number of women on the state committee increased.
But you were the first active, independent woman.
I think I was one of the first active independent women from Mecklenburg
County and I think it helped the cause of women to have me appointed. I
think there were token appointments of women when women's suffrage first
came… In 1932 my husband and I went to Raleigh for the state convention.
I was going to learn about political state conventions and my husband …
we were sitting in the auditorium and this