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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0062, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Marguerite Tolbert worked in South Carolina schools and universities to improve
educational options for adults, especially women and illiterate individuals.
This interview starts with a description of her education and graduation from a
high school in South Carolina in 1910. She retells a few stories about her life
from a book she cowrote titled South Carolina's Distinguished Women
from Laurens County. She recounts how she earned a scholarship to
Winthrop College and discusses the greatest achievements of her teaching career.
Tolbert also describes her colleagues in the teaching profession, including Wil
Lou Gray and Dr. D. B. Johnson, the president of Winthrop. She recounts two
speeches she made before the South Carolina State House. She explains her views
on the suffrage movement and the views of the Winthrop College president.
Tolbert also recalls President Hoover's visit to Kings Mountain State Park in
1931 and Jane Addams's visit to Winthrop. Tolbert taught in a variety of schools
and describes her course content and methodology. She describes directing a
training school for boys and how she dealt with a sexist salary clash between
teachers in the 1940s.
Marguerite Tolbert worked throughout her life as an educator in South Carolina
public schools and universities for adult education. She describes her education
and high school graduation through stories from her book, South
Carolina's Distinguished Women from Laurens County. She recounts how
she earned a scholarship to Winthrop College and met her teaching colleagues Wil
Lou Gray and Dr. D. B. Johnson; describes local activism for women's suffrage
between 1914 and 1920; and recalls encounters with leaders, including President
Hoover and Jane Addams. She concludes by discussing the controversy at Winthrop
College over a discrepancy in female teachers' salaries.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Miss Tolbert, I'm told that you've been extremely active in the field of education in our state. Can you tell me a little bit about your own education?
Yes. I've been active in education all my life. When I was in the second
grade I decided to be a teacher. I had a lovely teacher and I remarked,
"When I grow up I wish to be a teacher." And you know in that day and
time no doors were open to women except nursing and teaching. Being an
old maid aunt, I'm the spinster in my family who helped to take care of
my niece and nephew, but fortunately I chose a door that was open and
that door was education. At that time, Winthrop College was the center that prepared teachers. It's president was none
other than Dr. D.B. [David Bancroft] Johnson who founded Winthrop
College through a grant from the Peabody Foundation and who was assisted
by the governor, Benjamin Ryan Tillman, "Pitchfork" Ben Tillman, who
said that "every farmer's daughter and every family should be
able—whether they were rich or poor—to educate their children." So,
Winthrop evolved and that's a story in itself that is recorded in Distinguished Women from South Carolina
What community did you live in?
Right there in Laurens. I was born in Great Court, our ancestral home. My family came to Laurens when I was two years old. We love Laurens and Gray Court—it's the center of interest of the Gray clan. And I was graduated from the Laurens High School as salutatorian in 1910.
That story is told partly in here.
Would you tell, please, the title of this volume that you have in your hand?
Yes South Carolina's Distinguished Women from Laurens
County, most of whom are red-headed. There are twenty-seven
chapters—with a total of 30 women.
And this was published in 1972 and co-ordinated by . . .
. . . Marguerite Tolbert, Wil Lou Gray and Dr. Irene Elliott, who was
the first woman ever to get a Ph.D. from the University of North
Carolina and also the first dean of women at the University of South
Carolina. They all say that's
I was graduated salutatorian from my class. Rebecca Dial,
How I got my scholarship to Winthrop is the most exciting event in my life, and that is recorded in my brief biography.
But can you tell it in just a few words?
Yes, I can. My two sisters were being graduated from Winthrop. My mother was ill at Johns Hopkins that year.
Father was hard-pressed for funds. I believe it was the time of four-cent
cotton. Our economy was nothing to brag on. But I was looking forward
with the keenest anticipation to attending Winthrop. Winthrop was
definitely in the future for me—as my two sisters and many friends had
gone to Winthrop. My mother, as I said, was at Johns Hopkins. She wrote,
"I want Marguerite to attend Winthrop commencement and be oriented, so
she can feel at home next September when she enters college. And I did.
But, when my father brought me the letter he said, "Margie—he called me
Margie—do you think you could wait a year to go to Winthrop. With the
two girls in college this year and your mother ill it's going to be
difficult for me to swing it financially." The world tumbled in on me.
I
After that time passed tediously. Not a word from Winthrop came. My
sister, who had graduated at Winthrop, had had a house party. I was
delegated to take them to the station. We had a rubber-tired old buggy
and a horse by the name of Prince. My father was an insurance agent in
those days—went from county to county. So I drove Prince down Main
Street with the girls to the railroad station in Laurens when they were
leaving. We had trains running, you know, from Charlestown to Columbia
to Newberry and Laurens and Greenville. As I carried those pretty girls
to the station State you've
won the scholarship to Winthrop from Laurens County." That was the
thrill of a lifetime. I told everybody good-by. I jumped into the
rubber-tired buggy and with a whip, I whipped old Prince as fast as I
could up Main Street. The first person I told the good news to was our
old cook Manda. We danced around the table threw the cat into the air
and Manda said, "Lordy mercy, lordy mercy, I knew you was gonna win. I
knew you was gonna win." I ran to the telephone to tell the good news my
two Aunt Marys who were so interested in me and who sponsored me. My
mother was quite an invalid then. She was recuperating at Graystone near
Great Court, ancestral home of the Grays. Of course they rejoiced with
with me.
Dr. Rass says in his chapter in our book, "Is it any wonder that
Marguerite chose South Carolina as the scene of her activities in the
line of education." I taught in the South Carolina public schools for
twenty years. I taught at Winthrop College. I taught at Clemson summer
school, Newberry summer school. I became a member of the state
department of education, where I served as Supervisor or Assistant
Supervisor of adult education. Later I became assistant director of the
South Carolina Opportunity
Under whose directorship?
First, Mr. Jessie Agnew; next, Mr. William T. Lander; then, I retired,
full retirement in '65 and moved into this apartment across the hall
from Wil Lou Gray. We have continued our interest in continuing
education because we believe that education begins at the cradle and
continues until the grave. You never get too old to learn. That has been
our philosophy and we've pursued it and so we're remaining in the main
stream of life. I'm eighty-one; Wil Lou will be ninety-one soon. We go,
go, go morning, noon and night. I was taking my annual physical
yesterday and landed over in the hospital for a morning. Anyhow, Wil Lou
and I were both invited yesterday for the big vocational state
conference as honored guests. They put us at the head table. I can't
enumerate the many, many things that happen to us continually in the
field of education. We attended Clemson University last month, the last
week of May, as senior citizens. The University puts onall but particularly on adult education.
Very democratic implications.
What do you consider your greatest achievements?
Well, that has been asked me before. In the year that South Carolina
celebrated its sesquicentennial, the Gray clan that numbers hundreds
from New York and Washington to California and Miami and all over South
Carolina, decided to honor me at the reunion that year because I'd been
their historian for years. Dr. W. L. Gray, Jr. of Miami, my first
cousin, he's a Wofford College man, was invited to bring the tribute to
me on that occassion. It was to be a surprise but they had to come to me
to ask this same question. So Bill did; said "We can't keep it a secret;
we'd like to, but at our reunion this year we are honoring you. And I
have to have material that's valid. What do you consider the highlights
in your life?" And I said, "Well, one is when I stood that examination
for Winthrop and got it. Another is when I was graduated cum laude from
Another highlight, I believe, was when Dr. W. D. McGinnis invited me to return as a teacher at Winthrop. I had studied under him when I was a student there.
What did you teach, Miss Tolbert?
English in high school. That was my internship in the field of education, and at Winthrop Training School Junior High.
And you taught English in the high schools?
Yes, I have taught everything from illiterates to college graduates.
But at Winthrop . . .
Yes, then I went back to Winthrop, maybe somebody had died or passed
on—either Dr. Johnson or Dr. Kinard who followed him would call Miss
Marguerite to come up here and take this job to fill in. They thought I
was a jack of all trades, I think. So, I went back again and again. I
was elected trustee at Winthrop for eight years for the alumni
association. That was a highlight. Another highlight was when—and I'll
say this, they tried their best
Why not?
He gave his reasons, a tight budget. "But we'll give you thirty-five
thousand if you raise thiryfive." I grabbed it. I grabbed it; I didn't
argue; I didn't say, "We're discriminated against." I just took it
gratefully. And I started writing more and more to the alumni begging
for help. One day after seven long tedious years I got a telegram—"The
organ fund today went over the top with the last payment." I was working
in the state department of education, I think, and they say I almost
fainted. Then I checked; we had everything with one exception: the
chimes. They would cost fifteen hundred dollars more. I called together
my classmates—the good old class of 1914. I said, "Will you assume with
me that responsibility?" I'll give credit to Catherine Davis. I said,
"Catherine will you make the motion at our reunion at Winthrop this
year, that the class of 1914 give those chimes. if they'll put a marker
up on the wall that we gave it and give us credit?" She agreed
wholeheartedly. She led the way with a gift of a hundred dollars. Julia
Gaillard gave a hundred. I gave a hundred. We went on down the line. I
remember the McNair girl also gave a hundred. And before you knew it—we
had it, but we had to work for a year on that. That marker is there, now
a highlight. When they dedicated the organ they had Virgil
I can see that you regard this as the most singular and most significant of your achievements.
Yes. You have no idea.
There were other wonderful things that have come and gone in my life . . .
But this was the highpoint?
One, I'm sure. Dr. Rast says that the October the third meeting of the
Gray clan that was dedicated to me, probably was a highlight, but I
expect the organ project eclipsed them all. I don't know which. Another
highlight in my life was after we had gathered material for this book on
distinguished women, and Wil Lou and I took it to the R. L. Bryan
Company and the head of the firm said, "Yes, we'll risk five thousand
dollars to publish it." I could hardly sleep that night I was so elated.
That was thrilling, to say the least.
To compile it.
To compile it and get it together. Most people have to work just with the author, but you see—look at my authors. Here were dozens and dozens of them and people of all kinds of eccentricities. You had to keep the project going. I got out a newsletter every two weeks to keep the eighty-three people involved and informed and working together.
How long was this project?
Two years at least, morning, noon and night. Oh, you don't know how I labored.
Well, it certainly is a worthwhile project. I think the same thing should be done for South Carolina as a whole, perhaps.
I put that idea in the introduction. I wanted it to be a forerunner. We focused on Laurens County. You can see here—the only Pulitzer prize winner, Julia Peterkin; and Ann Pamela Cunningham who saved Mount Vernon for the nation, the little cripple, and who was courted by the president of the United States. That is an exciting story.
I'll be interested to read it.
Yes. Dr. Ernest Lander of Clemson wrote that chapter.
Miss Tolbert, what were you doing during those electric years, 1914-1920,
when the movement for suffrage
I was teaching school in the public schools of South Carolina. In the meantime, I had been invited by Dr. McGinnis, head of the education department at Winthrop . . .
What was his first name?
Willis D., Willis D. McGinnis . . . to come back and teach at Winthrop. And well do we remember, Woodrow Wilson was president, became the president, from Princeton. And the women all over the world, from Miss Pankhurst in England and go back to 1828 at the Seneca group demanding suffrage and all of that . . . It was just rolling on and on. Many states out west already had it.
Were you in Rock Hill in those six years?
Yes, no . . .
Just part of those six years?
. . . just part of them.
Which ones?
The last . . .
1918 through 1920?
Yes. I focused there because that's where the bill was passed through the Congress.
It passed Congress and was also ratified in
Right. Woodrow Wilson signed it into law. Now I want to tell you how dynamic and ahead of his times D.B. Johnson was. The minute it was signed into law, he wrote Columbia University, "I want the most forward looking suffragist, most capable, most dynamic teacher of social sciences to come to Winthrop to prepare my girls to participate in the affairs of their state and community, to be more informed so they will vote intelligently." They hadn't ever cast a vote before. Of course every Negro man in South Carolina could vote under our constitution but not a white woman nor even Negro woman could vote, and there were thirty thousand more women than men in South Carolina. Dr. Johnson wrote: "Send me your most dynamic teacher. I want her to instruct our girls in the field of politics. Miss Ruth Rettinger arrived with the distinct assignment: prepare Winthrop girls to participate in their community affairs. I was at Winthrop when all of that was taking place.
Who came with Miss Rettinger? Was she the sole visiter at that time or was there a committee of women?
She became an instructor on the faculty. Later I think there were others, I can't recall, but Miss Retinger was very capable and the leader.
Was there not a citizenship school held on the
Yes, and that culd have been the South Carolina Federation of Women's Clubs. Dr. Johnson, as I said, was way ahead of his time. He invited Wil Lou Gray to bring her teachers of adults for training. Wil Lou had just been called from Maryland to come back to South Carolina and head the adult education movement. Nobody knew what that was. That was a new idea in those days. They didn't know that Christ had initiated when he called twelve adults about him, had started the adult education movement 2000 years ago. All Right, Dr. Johnson called Wil Lou to say, "Miss Gray, I hear you're head of a great movement in South Carolina adult education. We know nothing about it. Winthrop wants to back you, and we'll do anything to help you."
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Then as a leader in the opportunity school you could not really interest yourself in politics?
We could involve ourselves in politics but we had to be very circumspect.
But really you were not in the Opportunity School movement when the suffrage movement was in progress.
No, no.
This was later.
This was much later.
But you were really not terribly aware of Mrs. Eulalie Salley and her work in the equal suffrage league then.
I remember Mrs. Eulalie Salley moving the house from Edgefield to Aiken.
That was 1926.
Yes, I remember she was an active citizen.
Did that make a splash in the South Carolina news?
Oh, yes. That was great news.
I don't have any real memory of the woman's suffrage movement except in all of those years—I want to say this to make it clear— the women through the Federation of Women's Clubs—that's where I worked—were very aware that the South Carolina constitution gave us no right to vote. Men could vote but no white woman. And in our Council for the Common Good, which was part of it, we championed the right of the women to vote.
Do you remember what years we're talking about?
Oh, till Governor Robert E. MacNair—two years ago, signed the bill.
I see. So too was Ms. Salley. She appeared, I think, when at last South Carolina ratified the measure.
Yes. I made two or three speeches in the State House fighting for woman's right to vote.
Is that so?
Yes, I did. I appeared before the senate, and once I appeared before the senate and the house and I made my plea for women to have their rights as full-fledged citizens.
Do you remember what years these were?
No.
Do you have these remarks on typescript?
No, that was just part of my duty.
The founder of the Equal Suffrage League in South Carolina was a woman from Cheraw named Mrs. Harriett Powe Lynch. Were you aware of her activities?
No. I knew Lila Moore.
Powe—P-O-W-E.
I knew a Mrs. Moore who was a Lynch and came from Conway; and she was in the Federation of Women's Clubs with us, and listed in United We Stand. All came out flat—footed for equal rights and we stepped out bravely. I remember going to Senator Speigner of, Columbia he's dead now, and laying the problem on the table.
What was his response?
He was all right but the legislature still
. . . the Equal Rights Amendment?
Right.
Lucretia Mott Amendment.
Yes.
Did you know that Senator Benjamin R. Tillman opposed suffrage for women?
Well I'm sure they all did.
But you say Pres. D.B. Johnson did not oppose it?
No, he was for it. I'm saying that if he were living today, he would vote for Winthrop to be co-ed. I was against the co-ed movement at first myself, but I changed. I know that he would have followed the trends of the time and jumped ahead.
I have to say so because I voted the other way. Up at Winthrop while attending the Alumni Association I said, "Now, from now on out I'm for co-education for Winthrop."
But you think that Mr. Johnson, Dr. Johnson, favored suffrage? He was not outspoken about it, let me say; I read some of his papers. He could not be, I suppose with Sen. Tillman having such influence . . .
Right.
. . . and Sen. Tillman opposed it. I know he did. I've read letters that
he wrote in opposition to
Yes, and a feminist . . . a feminist . . . I forget her name; also Cora Wilson Stewart was terrific. She was head of the Moonlight Schools in Kentucky. I don't know that she was an advocate of woman's rights but I'm sure she was. She was a great leader in adult education.
Did Carrie Chapman Catt come to Rock Hill at all?
Maybe, but I wasn't there.
Maud Wood Park?
Uhm.
Did she not come . . . ? Did the national organizer who was sent to South Carolina several times come to Rock Hill? Her name was Lola Trax?
If so, I wasn't there. You see, I was there intermittently at Rock Hill and so I answer that.
Yes. Were you aware at all of the existence of the National Woman's Party
at that time? Were you
I'll tell you when I became aware. They put me on a program about woman's suffrage and I dug in and went back to 1828 to the World Conference on Slavery in London We sent women and they wouldn't seat them because they were women. Later I became president of the AAUW The founder and promoter of AAUW was a Marian Tolbert up in Boston. She opened the doors to women in the colleges and in every way she could. Later to woman's suffrage and everything. And I'd give programs to the clubs and make speeches in behalf of suffrage.
Yes, on suffrage . . .
. . . on suffrage.
But do you remember the Woman's Party and its activities in Charleston? Did they not receive publicity?
I'm sure . . . Wil Lou and I were talking about it and her cousin, Mrs. Nathaniel B. Dial, wife of the senator, who fought it, he fought suffrage. Her cousin in Charleston —and I thought her name was a Mrs. Tucker —she was eligible from the Saint Cecilia and all the way back. She stood up and out for women's suffrage. You ask Wil Lou about that because that's important. I'm sure she was very much up-to-date on the subject, woman's suffrage.
But were you not aware of Alice Paul's leadership? Alice Paul was a New
Jersey woman who put together
Somebody recently told us about Alice Paul and said, "You certainly ought
to know her." Was it written up recently in Heritage,
Sandlapper?
I don't know.
I think it was. And somebody said, "Marguerite Tolbert knows about that," and I didn't.
Well, Alice Paul had a coterie of followers in Charleston, devoted followers. And Charleston women served on the national level, and in South Carolina too. The chairman in South Carolina of the Woman's Party was Mrs. Helen Vaughan in Greenville.
I don't remember that.
I just was wondering if you were aware . . .
You see, I jumped from this to that, so often what I do recall lacks continuity.
Did you remember Miss Susan Pringle Proust
No, but I worked very closely with Washington Green Fingle in Charlestown. She was assistant county superintendent of education.
Oh yes. That's your field now, education.
I was invited to Charleston for a week. They wrote Dr. D. B. Johnson, President of Winthrop, to send them somebody who could help evaluate their school program, discuss their testing program, who would step on the stage before all the teachers of the county for demonstrations, and who would also work miracles with the Negroes. That was a big assignment for one week.
Yes, what year was that?
Oh . . .
What decade?
I'll tell you. That was when I was first at Winthrop and I would say it
was in the early 1920's. Dr. Johnson chose me. I had never seen
Charleston, even though I was teaching at the training school. Think of
that! My own state. I made the trip to Charleston enthusiastically.
Washington Green Pringle met me. They treated me like a king. I worked
as hard as I ever worked in my life and I gave demonstrations on the
stage with thirty children. I cut it to thirty because you couldn't have
more than thirty chairs on the stage. And
They also gave me a sampling of some delectable low country food. Then they put me on the train, Sunday night after a week, and gave me a giant pecan log. I'd never heard of a pecan log—famous Charleston candy. I came on to Columbia, spent the night in the station—and got into Rock Hill the next day about ten-thirty. But that experience was something to write home about. But my experience with the Charleston Negroes was exciting. I'd never worked with the Negroes, and before I left Dr. Johnson asked: "Can you call them ‘mister’ and ‘misses’?" I said, "I never have." He said, "Well, call 'em ‘professor’ if you can, because you must be professional." And when the Negroes gave me a piece of chalk, they'd put a piece on a little scrap of paper on their hand and the chalk was on it and presented it to me while I was demonstrating the class to the teachers. Those were days, very different.
Very different.
I'm afraid I can't focus as much on this lib
I'd like to see a written speech, if you have some.
I might have one; I don't know.
I'd appreciate you're seeing and then writing to me if you find such a speech.
If I can find it. I've been throwing them away. Often sometimes, I know Mrs. John Swearinger would have several of the clubs to come together, and I talked on the status of women. I was president of the Status of Women Conference.
In the AAUW?
No, The Status of Women Conference in South Carolina.
The commission.
It was called the Status of Women's Conference.
I think it's been headed quite recently by Mary Calvert, has it not?
No, but she was head of it once, I think. I can easily find it.
Do you remember any parades for woman's suffrage, either hearing about them in the state or seeing them in your community?
No parades except we'd hear about them.
What did you hear? Any anecdotes, any interesting
Wil Lou, who studied at Columbia University, would come back and tell us about the parades in New York. They had many great parades down Fifth Avenue for this and that. And then
I would read, in the Literary Digest all about the
activities in England, how they paraded over there—Miss Pankhurst and
all of them . . .
But I mean in South Carolina. Did you hear of any parades in South Carolina, in the state?
Uh uh, no.
Did you hear of any rallies in South Carolina, special meetings for suffrage . . . special groupings coming together and hearing a speaker address them on suffrage? . . . Of course you experienced that one when Dr. Anna Howard Shaw came to Winthrop. So you actually were in attendance at one such rally . . .
Uh huh.
Were there any others that you could think of?
No, not per se. I can remember calling AAUW women to
gather en masse at the State House to keep our compulsory education law
intact.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
She replied to Dr. Johnson: "You could do plenty because I have to train
my teachers for adult work. And I want it to be centered around adult
education and good citizenship. The focus
She'll tell you this afternoon how many could not even sign their names, read and write or figure. So, Wil Lou focused on a good program of citizenship. Be sure and ask her about her little civics book that was written under her guidance at Columbia University for South Carolina students.
Very interesting. When you were at Winthrop in those two years before ratification, teaching, what kind of extra-activities did you engage in?
At that time we were learning that you could not use the old Ichabod
Crane attitude toward students to learn. It was breaking down. And I
want to give credit to Winthrop for breaking away from the past and
focusing on what I call constructive, good, progressive education, which
we based on the interests and needs of our students. We did teach just a
textbook. We used textbooks and many good books of all kinds. We
centered on units, and I would like to mention one: October the seventh,
1931 or 1932.
All of my boys and girls studied the details of that battle of King's Mountain where Hoover was to speak. We planned to go over there the day he was there, but we had to work hard and read and study and learn that situation. Even now I can see one little boy who played the part of Campbell. One was somebody else; half had to be English . . . the colonist half. They had to be American. Somebody was Old Ferguson—he rode his horse and took his mistress into the battle with him, and she was killed and his horse was killed and he was killed. And everybody to this day throws a rock on their graves. There's a mound of stones even now. Well; we studied; we read; we acted out the battle. The parents co-operated and we focused on good citizenship.
They had to give their lives, they fought for the liberation of the colonies from the old country.
And finally the day came. Oh, we had gone over beforehand and they had
dramatized the battle. The cutest thing you ever saw, those young
children. And when they struck you with their homemade guns and what
not, you would fall over dead. You had to stay dead too. At any
Oh, I helped to develop another unit when Tutankhamun's tomb was unearthed in 1922.
We started from there, how man kept his records through the years.
Old King Tut.
King Tut! King Tut. And the Portland Cement Company—you see that pyramid
was made of cement, I think—they advertised it and the students picked
it up. We studied the records of man from papyrus in the Nile and the
Babylonian clay tablets to the Phoenicians who gave us
It was the scrolls of the Dead Sea that were found, I believe.
Yes, I've seen them.
Did you see them at the British Museum?
I saw them at Claremont, California. There was a travelling exhibit.
Right.
How did you become interested in political affairs? I think you were, because you were active to some degree in the suffrage movement.
At my father's and mother's knees. I came through the era when Benjamin Ryan Tillman rose in South Carolina and was trying to emancipate the farmer and the common man and the poor man, and he became the first governor interested in the farmer. He was called "Pitchfork Ben". And then I went to Winthrop and there I ran into Ben personally and his daughter Sally May. She and I sat together in class—a brilliant girl she was.
What was her name again?
Sally May Tillman, and she's out in Seattle now, Sally May Schuller. I graduated from Winthrop with honors but I worked for mine. But Sally May could just glance at a page and it was hers.
But your hearing about Ben Tillman's political organization and political career . . .
My father was against old Ben. We were against Ben and we fought against Cole L. Blease, who came from Newberry, who they said was the offspring of Ben Tillman. But I learned later to respect Ben Tillman in my old age, in many ways, and at Winthrop too though I disliked him because he didn't give us any holidays. Old times at Winthrop, when you went in September, you stayed till June. Then later, he did give us Christmas holidays. He was dynamic; oh, he was dynamic and brilliant. It would take forever to discuss that. But I went to the political meetings with my father in Laurens Park.
Back in Laurens County.
Laurens County, right in town.
Was your father then, as well as being an insurance broker, also active in civic affairs?
Very, very much.
In what capacity?
In the church and the city. He was just a moving power for good. He would
come in and we kept up with everything; politics were discussed around
the table. They didn't have very many magazines then. We took the Literary Digest. And they aired the scandal about
Teapot Dome. I can see my father coming in now. We kept up with that
scandal—worse than Watergate in those days. The Republicans came out and
said, Literary Digest says, "How in the hell can the country tell
You ain't gonna steal no more?"
Oh, good Lord, that's rare.
Oh, those were rich days!
Was your father mayor or city councilman?
No. No, but he was a big leader in the Methodist church and in civic affairs.
What was his first name?
James Franklin Tolbert.
And your mother's name?
Emma—that is her portrain in 1896.
Emma?
Emma Medora Gray. She went to Lander College, which was then called Williamston Female College. And my father was taught by old Dr. Samuel Lander, the founder of Williamston Female College, which is now Lander College in Greenwood.
My father taught school. He taught Miss Ida Jane Dacus, librarian at Winthrop. And I never went into Miss Dacus's office unless she said, "Your father taught me my ABC's." So it was kind of at our father's and mother's feet we were interested in politics and public affairs.
How did you become interested in equal rights for women? Do you remember any incident, perhaps?
Oh, yes. We were all against it at first.
Can you remember about what decade you were first aware of it at all?
Oh, yes indeed! When I was in the high school there were three literary societies . . .
In town. What were their names?
I can't remember.
But anyway . . .
I represented one society at commencement. Each had speakers. Rebecca
Dial
High school.
Oh, I may have told you there were three literary societies.
Yes.
But there were three at Winthrop and only one at the Laurens high school, I think.
I see. But now, in the high school . . .
But in the high school they elected three people to speak at commencement.
And you were one.
And Rebecca Dial —her father was a United States senator—and Kate Wofford and I.
Did you speak on suffrage?
The Brookfarm experiment was my subject.
Did you talk about Margaret Fuller.
Oh, yes; all of that and I have often run into references to that
experiment. I read it at Aunt Mary's and she suggested I write on it,
and I followed her suggestion. And Kate Wofford wrote on Suffrage for Women.
And what did she say?
Oh, she was dynamic; way ahead of her time. We thought she was plebian
because she believed in votes for women. It wasn't approved in polite
society, "votes for women." And then this wonderful person from Laurens
County, none other than Mary Yeargin, who was graduated from Columbia
College in the early days, left Laurens and went to Cornell University
and became so way out and so modern. When she came back, Wil Lou said
she was a little tyke, her aunts and her neighbors would sit together
and whisper, "Mary came back believing in woman's suffrage!" That was
Did she inspire Kate Wofford do you think?
I don't know, but it was just the awakening of the times. It could have been in some way. I'm sure Kate knew the story of Mary Yeargen, who was drowned while boating at Cornell University.
Kate Wofford?
No, Mary Yeargen. It's all in here; you'll have a good time reading this
book. But Kate Wofford was a red-headed highlight a, dynamo from
Winthrop College. She had a little twang in her speech. She came boldly
on the stage with her arguments for Woman Suffrage. She eclipsed Rebecca
Dial, my friend, and me, all to pieces of course. She won the prize
What arguments did she use in favor of woman's suffrage? Do you remember?
Yes, to this day.
A woman was made in the image of God just as a man was.
She made this a point in her speech?
Yes, that was her point. And that she was entitled to all the privileges
of citizens. She shouldn't be a chattel and be sold like a horse and a
cow, and so on; that she was a human being, an individual worthy of her
rights. And believe me, she knocked a home-run. And my red-headed Aunt
Mary, who had coached me, didn't want to speak to the
You and she both went up to Winthrop, did you not?
Oh, yes and we kept up with each other. And by the way, when I stood that examination for the scholarship she stood it too. And I beat the brilliant red-headed Kate Wofford that time. I won the scholarship.
So when you were at Winthrop your eyes had been opened to this new demand by women for the vote. Was there an organization for equal rights for women at Winthrop?
No, not then. There might have been; as of now I know of no such organization.
Did not Kate Wofford attempt to put together a little group, a pro-suffrage group?
She may have; I don't think so. Her years at Winthrop were interupted by
the War and she went to Washington, served as yeoman in the navy, then
came back and assumed responsibility—there may have been eight or nine
children in her family, and each one would assist the next one through
college. So, she and I did not graduate in 1914 together. She was a
She didn't put together a little organization to discuss suffrage? Someone remembered that she did—a Miss Alma Lewis. Did you know Alma Lewis?
Yes, and I think that could have been.
But you were not a part of it?
I was not and I don't recall that at all.
I know that there was a national organization for college women called the National Collegiate Equal Suffrage League, and I just wondered if her effort was to put together a chapter of that at Winthrop?
Well, she may have. I want you to know that D.B. Johnson, again always ahead of his times, had invited the head of the Feminist Movement of the World to come to Winthrop. I forget her name.
Was she an English woman?
Yes.
Sylvia Pankhurst?
It wasn't Miss Pankhurst. See, he became imbued with woman's suffrage; D.
B. Johnson did. He also invited the wonderful, thrilling, brilliant Dr.
Anna Howard Shaw—one of the first women who ever became a doctor, a real
M. D.; the first woman who ever became a minister in the Methodist
And she spoke at . . .
. . . at Winthrop.
Winthrop. You don't remember what year, but probably 1917 to 1920, somewhere in there.
I believe so. Jane Addams also came to Winthrop.
She came to Winthrop?
Oh, I could tell you lovely stories about that. That was exciting. Everything was keyed up from the student body to Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Dunlap who lived next door. Poinsette, who was the Negro chauffeur, met her in Charlotte, in the college car.
Miss Addams?
Miss Addams of Hull House. And she was to come and share her story. It was the most exciting thing you ever heard.
Did she raise the question of suffrage for women during her stay at Winthrop, at all?
I don't recall. But she was the walking exhibit of a wonderful woman and, of course, Hull House. That was the tenement where every nationality was taught to respect their own people and their own tongue and their own language and customs; they would come together at Hull House and exchange ideas, would learn to live together and get along with each other.
When Dr. Shaw spoke at Winthrop, did she speak about economic opportunity for women or did she focus her address on the vote, woman's suffrage? Do you remember?
I don't. Those days were hectic like this. But I can't remember an analysis of the speech.
Just the point she made?
No, I just remember the person, what she stood for. They opened the doors to us women—in our thinking.
What were the responses in Rock Hill, generally, to the appearance of Dr. Shaw and to the suffrage movement?
I would say, the same as everywhere else. The old-timers were holding on
to the past and there was
Would you say that the students at Winthrop leaned along in that direction toward women's suffrage or were they apathetic as a whole?
I think they had to be stimulated.
You think that they favored suffrage and . . .
But they had to be stimulated, I think. They were so engrossed in this and that, it required a good deal of stimulation. I think that's the reason that D.B. Johnson wanted Miss Rettinger to come.
Do you believe, then, that Dr. Johnson and the other administrators at Winthrop favored suffrage for women?
Oh, I think they did. I don't think all of them did, but I think most of them did.
Did you ever hear any anti-suffrage sentiment at Winthrop?
I don't think so. I don't recall any. I really don't. But I can remember
the feud about salaries for men and women. That also fell right in my
lap when I had, during World War II, to set up a camp for
underprivileged boys. I had to get the best. It was during war and you
couldn't get
This was in the forties?
Yes. "Do something! They're breaking out the windows in the mills, in the churches, and running riot and filling up the penitentiary." We didn't have juvenile judges then. "Something has to be done!" Dr. J. H. Hope put the baby on my front doorstep.
So it was a matter of need.
It was a matter of emergency. So I called my teachers together. I got the
finest teachers in the state. Most of them came from Parker school
district because they knew good progressive education; they knew how to
inspire campers to study, they knew trees and birds and fishing and
hiking and all those things that I wanted my boys to know, as well as
good
Do you remember at Winthrop if there was much talk among the student body about that episode? Was the student body aware when Miss Nettie Wyson and Miss Hughes were fired?
I don't think it percolated down too much, but we all were concerned that Miss Wyson and Miss Hughes dared to be leaders in demanding equal salaries with the men. Now when Phelps was there, he fired teachers without a hearing, and that's when they dropped us from the AAUW. That's what Winthrop became: notorious from coast to coast. We were not recognized by AAUW for years on end.
Why did Mr. Phelps fire teachers?
Because of tenure, something about tenure.
And they must have been women teachers.
Yes, two women teachers. He was urged
I see.
AAUW and Dr. Johnson had struggled to get us approved by the American Association of University women and Miss Fraser too—they dropped us like a hotcake. I became state president of the AAUW and I became a champion to get Winthrop back on the accepted list. But there it was and Winthrop stayed off for years on end.
Back at the time of Miss Wyson's and Miss Hughes's firing do you remember the protest resignations of three other instructors? There were three protest resignations at that time.
Was it Miss Jones?
No, I've forgotten the names now but there were three that resigned in protest. It's all on the record in the Winthrop archives and I've been through them. The faculty as a whole didn't write a letter of protest and sign, affix signatures, asking that they be re-instated, did they?
I'm sure that I would recall, if they did.
Too dangerous an action really.
Yes.
And the board stood by Dr. Johnson; actually each blamed the other it seems. The record indicates that Johnson and Spencer said that it was the board's decision and the board said it was Johnson's decision. I wonder what became of Miss Wyson and Miss Hughes. I understand Miss Hughes is living in Clearwater, Florida. I don't know what she did after that though. What did Miss Wyson do? Where did they go?
I don't know. Miss Wyson was a Latin teacher.
What happened to their careers after that?
I don't know, but I think Miss Wyson went to New York, where she taught.
Did she?
Oh, she taught in New York.
Either coached or taught.
How aware were you of the South Carolina Equal Suffrage League and what it was doing?
Very little.
I imagine you r ad, now and then, comments in the Columbia paper.
Very, very little. And another thing as an educator you couldn't dive into politics too much, as I learned later. I might have done it as a youth but later . . .
END OF INTERVIEW