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Title: Oral History Interview with Sandra Kay Yow, June 22, 2005. Interview G-0244. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007): Electronic Edition.
Author: Yow, Sandra Kay, interviewee
Interview conducted by Grundy, Pamela
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by Jennifer Joyner
MP3 file created by Aaron Smithers Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2008
Size of electronic edition: 132 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2008.
© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
Languages used in the text: English
Revision history:
2008-00-00, Wanda Gunther and Kristin Martin revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic edition.
2008-04-08, Jennifer Joyner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of recording: Oral History Interview with Sandra Kay Yow, June 22, 2005. Interview G-0244. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series G. Southern Women. Southern Oral History Program Collection (G-0244)
Author: Pamela Grundy
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Sandra Kay Yow, June 22, 2005. Interview G-0244. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series G. Southern Women. Southern Oral History Program Collection (G-0244)
Author: Sandra Kay Yow
Description: 89.1 Mb
Description: 36 p.
Note: Interview conducted on June 22, 2005, by Pamela Grundy ; recorded in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Note: Transcribed by Sharon Caughill.
Note: Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007): Series G. Southern Women, Manuscripts Department, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note: Original transcript on deposit at the Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
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Interview with Sandra Kay Yow, June 22, 2005.
Interview G-0244. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Yow, Sandra Kay, interviewee


Interview Participants

    SANDRA KAY YOW, interviewee
    PAMELA GRUNDY, interviewer

[DISC 1, TRACK 1]


Page 1
[START OF DISC 1, TRACK 1]
PAMELA GRUNDY:
I want to start by saying this is Pamela Grundy, and I'm here interviewing Coach Kay Yow here in her office at North Carolina State University. It's the twenty-second of June, 2005, and this is for the Women's Leadership Series.
My first question would be just starting with basketball, what is your first memory of basketball?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
My first memory of basketball is when I was seven years old, and at Christmas I got my very own basketball. A goal was put up in my back yard, and it was to stay there for many, many years. It would actually still be there now, but we are renovating my dad and mom's home place, so we took the goal down. But soon it will be replaced, and we're actually laying a full-size court in our back yard. So that's my first memory, getting that basketball, having a goal put up, and from that moment just starting to really entertain myself for hours just trying to put the basketball in the hoop.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Now how did a seven year old girl come to get a basketball hoop for a Christmas present?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I guess my mom and dad both played basketball. My mom played in high school. They both played on mill teams. They both worked in hosiery mills in Burlington, and as a result of their love for basketball and sports it probably didn't hurt them in getting that job because— I have a picture, actually, of my mom somewhere around here in my office on her mill team.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Okay.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
So they played basketball as they worked. It's sort of like an AAU league. Their love for basketball is the reason that I got my first basketball. However, there was

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never any pressure for me to actually use it or work at any kind of skills. It was just for fun and something they enjoyed, so I'm sure they thought I might enjoy it as well.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
So you hadn't asked for the basketball or been wanting it?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
No, I don't remember asking for it. I think I was wanting a bicycle, and I also got that and a number of other things. Actually, it was my last Christmas as the only child, so I guess they really flooded me because after that [came] another child, and another, and another. We became a larger family, and I learned how to be a good team member.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
So how many brothers and sisters do you have?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I have two sisters and one brother.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
And did they all play basketball also?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
They all played basketball. My brother went to Clemson on a football scholarship, but he played on the varsity high school basketball team, and both of my sisters played basketball. And as a matter of fact they retired number fourteen at Gibsonville High School after my youngest sister finished playing there, and that was the number that I had also worn.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Okay. Okay, so you were well known as the sisters?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
The Yow sisters, I think, from Gibsonville, or known sort of like the Holt brothers who both came and played football here at NC State, and both are professional players. They're from Gibsonville, and I think people around that town know the Holt brothers and the Yow sisters are all in basketball.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
That's really interesting. What was Gibsonville like at the time that you were growing up?

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SANDRA KAY YOW:
It's a great small town where the community and the town were completely involved in what was going on at the high school. Very supportive, strong PTA, strong booster's club for athletics. The town came out and supported the students as well as the student athletes at Gibsonville High School. You couldn't hardly go anywhere in Gibsonville or do anything. You'd see that it was truly a village raising the kids because many other adults would tell you what to do and what not to do, and they would also tell your parents. At that time you just didn't question answers. You just answered the questions. And parents were very supportive of people in authority, of coaches and teachers. I always knew I was never going to be right. If the teacher said something or the coach said something, that's the way that it was, and it was up to me to make the adjustment necessary to fit into whatever it was that they were requesting. I might could have had a sound argument on my side, but my parents were just supportive of authority, and I think it helped me greatly.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Did you have any coaches or teachers that you particularly looked up to?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I have to say my freshman coach was a woman named Peggy Gunn. She is of course married now, and she lives in Greensboro. I don't see her often, but every once in a while our paths cross. She was my freshman coach. She stands out in a way because she sort of got me started at that level. When I was in junior high there was a lady, Erma Danzler. She taught physical education, and she very much encouraged me. I kept score for the varsity team so I was really into watching them, and I looked up to a lot of players on the high school team when I was in junior high school. Those players also motivated me in basketball.

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But the teachers, there are three teachers that really influenced me in high school. One was a math teacher, Ted Bowing, and I had two English teachers, Vivian Davis and—oh, gosh, let me think here—Mrs. J. Allen Hunter. Mrs. Hunter had actually taught at Elon, and had retired, and then came back and taught me senior English. She was sponsor of the annual of which I was the editor, and so I had a lot of interaction with her in English class and then in extracurricular activities. And these two women, they were very different. Mrs. Hunter was older. She was very understanding. She also taught me French, and she was just great. She had a lot of patience. But they all had high expectations, and all demanded excellence, but she had this kind of patience and understanding, and just helped. Where Mrs. Davis, you knew you had better be prepared in her class. You had to have your homework done, and you knew she knew her subject matter, and she would call on you in an instant, and while you'd really feel badly if you couldn't even begin to give an answer, because she was teaching. And they all expected you to learn and to do your part. And Mr. Bowing in math, he made math fun. He actually came to NC State, got his degree here. When it snowed we might go up on the roof and look at the formations of snow flakes. We would do some very interesting things like that, but he made me enjoy math, and he was a fun teacher. He had a great sense of humor. He just was a great teacher. He knew his math. These are three people that really encouraged me greatly. I happen to have been president of my junior and my senior class, and I was strong in the running for valedictorian, but just by hundredths of a point I became salutatorian. So I know what it is to really strive for something and then come up maybe just a little short. But I had given the best that I had within me to be the best that I could become,

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and so you always feel good just knowing you gave your best. It may be disappointing for a moment, but that's short term. Long term you have nothing to look back and say, "if I had done this or if I had done that." I was giving my best. They were always encouragers to me whether it was making decisions as president of the class, or being editor of the annual, or doing my homework, or anything that I might be going through. They were all great encouragers, and I would say great listeners. I really appreciated it.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
That's terrific. You mentioned a little bit earlier you said that having to deal with authority and your parents unquestioned support of that authority had been good for you. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I think just the fact that my parents backed authority gave me a great respect for authority. I knew that there were people in charge, that were in control that had to make decisions, and all decisions they made weren't going to be ones that I always liked. When they set expectations I was to try to live up to those expectations. And even if I thought that the expectation was wrong or should be something else, they were in authority, and they had expressed it, and that's what I was to try to do. My parents always supported authority in that way. I never had the feeling like, 'you're not on my side.' They tried to explain to me what expectations were. And when people laid them out and there are rules and regulations and guidelines, that's what you do. There is a process to change those things, but just not to do them is not the process.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Right.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Or to do something else and do it a different way without changing the guidelines, or the policies is not the way to go about it. I think my mom was an especially great encourager, had a very positive outlook. Her attitude was unbelievable, and she

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always magnified the good things and the blessings rather than the disappointments or the hard times. That's what she taught all of her children to do. I know if I ever complained my mom she would let me say what I would say, but then she might remind me, "Kay, the man without shoes felt bad until he met the man without feet." There are people that are dealing with things tougher than that. So you have to get it in perspective. Sometimes we can be acting as if it's the worst thing in the world and we need somebody to give us a perspective and a balance and to show us what we have to be grateful for while we're just focusing on our disappointments and our hard times. She always said, "in every dark cloud there is a silver lining." I really appreciate all the things that she would say to me. If you don't have something good to say about somebody, then don't say anything. It's hurtful. It tears people down, and the idea is to build people up. So you shouldn't be negative in that way about people. She told me lots of things, about people that I might not get along with, or just maybe didn't like as much as others. She always told me to pray for those people. She said if you pray for them consistently, there is no way that you will continue to feel a dislike for them. And she was right.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
That's terrific to have somebody behind you that way and really doing that. Did most of the people in Gibsonville work at the mills? Was that what people did, or did they—what did people in Gibsonville do?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I would say that many of the people in Gibsonville worked in mills. We had hosiery mills, textile mills and also they were farmers. A lot of them raised large crops of tobacco. When I was a kid, a number of summers I spent making money putting in tobacco, so I know: I was a hander. I worked early in the morning until really dark at night. We were hanging the tobacco that we had tied up that day in the barns. That was

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another experience: just to understand what it's like to really have a job. It was really long hours, and you had to keep working. You couldn't just take a break because it was moving all day. Your break came at meal times. So I'd say a lot of farming and a lot of mill work.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Have many members of your family gone to college?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
My mom and dad didn't go to college, but my brother went to college. He did not complete his degree. But myself and [my] other two sisters went to college. I went on. I got a masters degree. My middle sister got a masters and then a doctorate, and then my youngest sister has worked on her masters partially and is still in that process.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
So your parents hadn't gone to college, but did you think that was your goal from a young age to go to college?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
It's something that my parents wanted: something for their children that they hadn't had the opportunity to do. There is no way that either one of them could have gone to college. They came from fairly large families, seven children each, and they came through the Depression, and there was no way that they could. They wanted this for their children. I was greatly influenced by the three teachers that I had in high school, and since two were English and one was math, I really wanted to go to college to be an English teacher. I attribute that specific part to those teachers that I had because I loved English, and it was basically because of these teachers. So I had a goal. I guess I started thinking about it when I was in high school, and I was influenced in that direction by my teachers, and my parents always wanted that for me. I'm the oldest child in my family, so I always wanted to please my parents. That was something I really wanted to do and just felt that I should do because they had always said that I should do it.

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PAMELA GRUNDY:
Let's go back to basketball for a minute. In Gibsonville obviously the high schools and I guess the junior highs had a boy's team and a girl's team. Was there a difference in how those two teams were viewed?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, it's interesting because I went to Gibsonville High School which was a Guilford County high school. Just six miles away was Burlington, and Walter Williams High School in Burlington was a city school. There were no teams for girls at Walter Williams High School, but six miles away in a county school [there were]. In Alamance, where Burlington is, they had county schools, and they had teams, but not the city school. It's interesting because if I had just lived six miles away within a city, I would not have had the opportunity to play. But because I went to Gibsonville High School, a county school, I had that opportunity. The gym was packed for both the boy's and the girl's games. At that time you played the girl's varsity and the boy's varsity games together, and then the JV's played their games together. It was packed for both, just supported. The community and the town supported both teams. I felt we had a great opportunity, and high school would not have been anything like high school to me if I hadn't been playing basketball. It added something to that total experience that was unbelievable, and if I hadn't had it, I would have missed so much. But there weren't college teams so I was never thinking about really going to college. I just accepted it didn't exist. I didn't expect it. I mean that's the way that was. So when I was in college I always felt like something was missing, and it wasn't until after I graduated from college, [when] I got a job and I started coaching that I realized it had

Page 9
been sports. That's what it had been all along. That's what I was missing, and I didn't understand that when I was in college.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
What did you like about basketball? Why did you like it so much?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I think that I like basketball. That just happens to be my sport. It could have been another sport, but I think it was just the challenge that sport brings. I thrive on the challenge of it. Working to become the best that you can become, to develop whatever talents you have to your potential, and then to go out and test them against someone else. It's just a challenge, and it's fun. I just have a love for competition, and I feel it's a love in the right direction because I think competing with people rather than against people, it's just a mindset. It's how you arrange your mind about competition. I don't think you can perform as well when you go out with a mindset, 'I'm going to complete against these people.' It's nothing against anybody that you're competing with, but that's what you're doing, competing with them. You just give the best that you have and they give the best they have, and if at the end you've even gotten a little bit better because of that experience in itself. You know there can be only one winner on the score board, but there could be all winners, as people. I realized this early on: if you give the best that you have that when it's all said and done you may have a disappointment on the score board, but there are other ways to win. Trying and giving your best is the greatest way to win because you may be disappointed, but really if you did give your best and you played really well, after a period of time you feel good, long term, that you did that. It was sort of like striving to be valedictorian. It is the same type of thing. In the end you want to be able to, as people say, 'look yourself in the mirror and just know that you've given your best.'

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It's just exciting. It's a game. It doesn't really count in the course of life in a lot of ways. It's not a life and death situation, but sometimes it can seem like it a little. But it's almost like some parts of sport are practice for real life. You're working on developing certain qualities and characteristics that can help you succeed in life and no matter what you do. You learn about discipline. If you really want to compete and be good you have to learn about discipline, and you understand commitment to excellence, and sacrifice, and dedication, and just like hard work, and the important part that enthusiasm plays in success. You start to learn about the ability to work with people, being a great team person, and also being a leader. You just learn so much in sports.
When I got my masters— I did my masters, rather than doing it in English I did it in physical education, and I also got an undergraduate certification in physical education while I was there. I went on a two year program to get it across the board. When I was getting those degrees they said these qualities and characteristics, they're not just caught. They have to be taught. But if you have a great leader there will be teachable moments, many of them, because sport involves the emotions so much. It involves every part of a person. In English you just didn't always see the total person involved in the classroom, but on the court every part of us is involved, and it all plays a part in the end for the results.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
That's really interesting, and really gets to the subject of what we are talking about which is leadership, and I guess you went to college, and then you came out and got a job teaching and coaching. Is that right?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Yes.

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PAMELA GRUNDY:
And I guess that's when you started to then be the role model for the girls that you were coaching. I'm curious what you went about trying to teach them especially early on when you were just starting to be a coach. What were your goals for your team?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I think when I first started out coaching I didn't really have a mentor. I think this is one of the things that I missed, because there were very few women coaches. Actually I really didn't know one, personally. Then I hadn't been trained to be a coach. So I was sort of on my own, except the men's coach at Allen Jay High School where my first job was. He had coached women and men for thirteen years.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Okay.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Okay, and had had championship teams, so he was great. He said he would help me learn how to draw up practices. Actually, he would sit on the bench with me during games until I felt more comfortable. He was very willing to help me. He was a very fundamental coach. He was an excellent coach. So this was a person who started helping me. But after a while I started being able to do the practices, and he felt I could be on my own for the games more. He helped whenever I asked questions, but he had his own team and his own program. So I attended clinics. I read books. I looked at films about basketball. I learned on my own. I just had to go out there and ask the questions and try to learn, and that's what I did. I think that today, women going into coaching have a greater opportunity because they have many people who could be role models now, and many of them actually played at the high school, college level, AAU; they've run through a number of coaches, and so they were very fortunate. Somebody like Sue Gunter who played AAU—I didn't

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even know about AAU. I lived in North Carolina, small town, and I didn't know these things existed except for after my senior year of high school basketball, I was asked to play for what was termed a 'semi-pro team,' for Payne Oil Company. I played for just that season after my senior year. But then when I went to college I wasn't here to play. I just got a little taste, but I still didn't know that there was Wayland Baptist [College] or Nashville Business [College]. I didn't know that. No, nobody ever told me about it. I had to learn a lot on my own. It is really great that today there are a lot more role models and a lot more help for people getting started; so just start at a higher level, just like players start at a higher level today, so we can reach greater heights overall because of that. But I can't really remember when I first started coaching. I think my concentration—as far as teaching qualities and characteristics—would have been along the lines of mom: really about staying positive. About maintaining our confidence, about working really hard, and about being good team members. Those things I have always known about in other situations, and I can see how it was magnified in sports. If we're going to do this we've got to get on the same wave length, and we've got to come together as one in order to be at our best. And there's no way we can have one person this direction, another this direction and expect to accomplish a task with excellence. So I think that's where I would have been at that time.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
You were really a pioneer in terms of being a female coach. Did you think of yourself that way? Did you have a sense that you were doing something that women really hadn't done before?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I guess I never thought of myself as a pioneer. I think I was just trying to survive, trying to get better. I'm big on people not just getting by, but getting better.

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Trying to improve, because it's through improvement that one has a chance for success and a team has a chance to win. You have to continually improve. So I was always focused on learning. I know learning is a lifetime process. I've been coaching basketball forty years, and I still have much to learn. Look at the tapes. All those new DVD's that I will be watching, and so it's nothing within me that ever thinks I have arrived, or that I know. I know that there's more and more to learn, and every little thing that you learn. . . knowledge is power, and it can really help take you to higher levels. I can help take my individual players and our team to higher levels, the more that I learn. Learning is a lifetime process.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Over these forty years of coaching and learning, how would you describe the leadership style that you've developed?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, my philosophy on leadership—leadership is influence, and even greater, it's an inspiring influence. I'd have to say my leadership is probably based a lot on the word love. I have a strong faith, and in the Bible, in First Corinthians, chapter thirteen, there's a chapter that describes love, that entire chapter. It has a section where it starts saying love is kind, love is patient, love is self control, and when you go through that if you think of what they are talking about, or what God is talking about love to be, [it's] a leader. You can put, 'a leader is kind.' 'A leader is patient.' 'A leader is self control.' 'A leader is honest and truthful.' A leader is all of these things, and I feel that if leadership is based in love and service, this is my idea. There's nothing within me that thinks of a leader as being a boss or just having power through position like telling people what to do just because you have the position.

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I think of it more as: you do have an authority, but you don't want it because of position. You want it because people respect you, and they see that you do what you say. You are a role model. I do not see how you cannot be a role model because you cannot say—whatever you ask people to do I think if you do what you say, you can't tell people, "just do what I say not what I do." You cannot say that to people. At least, you can say it, but I do not think you'll have the respect. You gain great respect by integrity, and by honesty, and by vulnerability: being real. If you're asking people to do it then you need to do it yourself. That way when people see that they will follow you. You know, character. First of all let me just say this. There's a book by Jeff Janssen, sort of like a sports psychologist, and I really believe this part of his [book], where you can't lead anybody else until you can lead yourself, and leading yourself is about character. You have to have that kind of character. That's the things I'm talking about now with the leadership based on love and service. You have to have character, honesty, and integrity. And then you have to be composed. You have to have a cool head in a hot situation. You have to show composure in crisis situations. You have to have commitment yourself. How can you ask somebody else to be committed to excellence and you're not yourself? They have to see that, and you have to have confidence. You can't lose confidence in yourself. You have to speak with confidence and know what you're about, and once you get your own house in order you can begin to qualify to have people who might want to follow you. Without getting your house in order, you're going to be a weak leader. But a strong leader has their house in order in these areas, and then they want to serve other people, want to help other people become all that they want to become and all that they can become. You want to help them to reach their goals. I've found that if you

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help other people reach the goals enough, you'll find out that you reach all your goals and above and beyond. Just because you are serving the people around you in that way, whether it's your staff or whether it's players, whoever it is you're helping them to reach their goal. Then you'll reach yours, and you don't have to worry about that. I see leadership as serving people and [as being] an inspiring influence, and I see love as the bottom, the core of it for myself. You have to love people, and really, truly have a desire to help them.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Does this go back to your mother at all when you think about how you developed this or how you came to have this belief?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Yes, my mother was a role model for sure. She's a person that I definitely would follow, because I know that she had my own best interest at heart, and I think that that's what people have to know about you as a leader. When you know somebody has your own best interest at heart, even when some tough decisions are made, some that you don't agree with and you don't like, you are still willing to go along with it in the end because you believe in that person. You know that they care about you. There's a saying that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care about them, and when they know how much you care about them they want to know everything, and that's the thing you want people to know. It has to be genuine. It can't be fake, and that's why being real—and people know the difference between real and fake. When it is genuine, people know it you have that kind of spirit. People want to follow you. You have to have an expertise in the field, but even if you didn't have expertise but people knew you really cared about them, it's amazing. I think you'd still be able to—it's much

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better than having all this expertise and not having the human skills. The technical knowledge but now human skills, you have to have the balance between the two.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Do you think there's anything distinctly female about your leadership style or your philosophy. Do you have any?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I think that many people would think that it is because I can think that people would. There would be many men who would say you can't be this way or that way. You have to be stern. You have to be. But tough love is being firm. It's not like you just have a love, do what you want. We're not talking about that. We're talking about developing responsible people, people that are accountable, people who don't settle for just being good. As John F. Kennedy said, "the greatest enemy of excellence is good." There are people who [think] good is good enough, so they don't want any more. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a tough love in that you're demanding that. But, you know what? You're not in it for yourself. You're in it for the right reasons, to serve and to help other people to become all that they can become, and you see them for who they can become and not for who they are right now, where they are right now. You see them for who they can be and who they can become if you just stick with them. Because this one is all about making people do what they don't want to do so that they can become who they want to become, and you as a leader know this. So I'm talking about a tough love. But no, to me no, it's not about women. I would like to see this kind of leadership across the board for everybody who leads. The leader is a part of the team, not somebody who sits up here outside the circle and just drops down, commands, or thinks of themselves more highly than they should. I think a leader should be a part of the team. It's just like a chain. If you make a chain into

Page 17
a circle, each member including the coach is a member of that team. And if that chain is in a circle—if you break any chain it's the same. It doesn't matter which link is more important in the circle. You just turn it. You can't tell. You're all members of the team, and they all have their roles. Every member has their role, and the leader has their role, just like on our team. The last substitute on the bench has their role, but who is to say that the leader for the last person to go into the game is more important? I see us all equally a member of the team, and we all have our role, and we're all crucial to the success of the team.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Did you come to this over a long period of time, sort of understanding this, or did it seem to come fairly naturally to you early on to see leadership and teamwork in this way?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I think the Lord blessed me with a love for people. That was the first thing, so that helped. But it is an ever evolving thing, and it would have helped me if I had had a role model who could sit down with me and explain to me the things that they had learned through their experiences. Not that I would have to go out and do it exactly that way, but I would have a lot to think about because as that person would talk, I would think, 'I'm not thinking exactly that way,' and so it would give me a lot to mull over, and I might come to some different conclusions. But even at this point, after coaching forty years, I am still learning about leadership, and it is still evolving, and I am still working on areas that are weak for me to become stronger in. There are many areas, and as you deal with so many different situations day in and day out, sometimes I disappoint myself. I wish that I had not responded in the way that I responded. It wasn't the way I wanted to and the way that I should have. But it's still, even at this time in my life, it's like I'm not

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who I want to be. I'm not who I ought to be. I'm not who I'm going to be but, praise the Lord, I'm better than I used to be. You know every day that's true. And so I'm still learning. Communication has always been a problem for me in the area of confrontation. I don't like to confront people. I used to just not do it. I avoided doing it, but it's an area in leadership that I had to get better at, and I knew that, and so I tried to be around people who were great communicators like that who had a knack for it. I love people, and truth without love is brutal. I've done that before. I've been very truthful, but it was without a love because it was in the wrong setting. It was something that might should have been done privately, and I did it publicly. That's not good. But love without truth is hypocrisy. So it's things like this I had to understand through making mistakes. Had somebody sat me down when I was young and told me about this, I could have grasped it, I think, and known that that's something I never want to do. Not having a role model in that way— sometimes I made my own mistakes and, unfortunately, I had to learn that way sometimes. I like it better when I can learn through other people's experiences, and read about it, and understand it before I move into that arena. But I love learning, and I want to keep learning to be a better and better leader. This is very important to me. Of all things, I think that a strong leader can help people to accomplish greater and better tasks. I think leadership is the critical role, and also I want people working for me to be a role model for them so that they can become great leaders themselves. You pass it on. The thing is what you learn, you want to pass it on. You don't want to just keep it, because by passing it on you have a chance to have an influence for many future generations.

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PAMELA GRUNDY:
Let's go back for a minute to—because this is all very interesting, and I think the confrontation may be tied back into some earlier experience. Obviously once you became a high school coach then you became a college coach, and you're really pioneering in that field. I'm interested in what some of the obstacles you encountered as one of these early women's coaches, and how you went about trying to deal with them.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, at first there were many obstacles, so I don't even know where to begin. When I went to Elon it was my first college coaching job, and there was no money in the budget. So we had to pay our own gas, and buy our own food, buy our own shorts, tee shirts, whatever. I remember we didn't have money. But see, the whole thing then was not to look at all that we didn't have but to look at what we did have. I mean, we did have an opportunity to play. Just a few years earlier, people didn't have that opportunity. So we have to focus a little on what we do have. At least we have this opportunity so we have to be grateful for that. Not that we stop working for having more. We could have a case; we should have much more because we've been all these years without anything, so we know that. But at the same time we've got to operate day to day, and you can't get everything over night. So it's a matter of understanding that. Don't forget what you do have, and then just work in the right way to get what you don't have. I remember my players at Elon. They wanted warm ups so badly. I went to the track and field coach, and I talked to him about—I can't remember if they were getting new warm ups or if their season was over, but they had these warm ups, and I asked him, they weren't using them at the time. I asked him if we could use the warm ups for our team. His name was Jerry Tolley, and he agreed, and gave us those warm ups to use. Those warm ups were for track and field. They're for being worn outside. They were

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heavy, and they were men's, and they were huge, and my players put them on, and they didn't ever want to take them off. They loved them. They just thought they were so special because they had warm-ups no matter what they weighed or what they looked like. They wore them all the time. So you look to people. You always were searching for people who were really the kind of people who like to help other people, and that you could approach, and that might in some small way do something. It might not sound that big to some people, but it was huge because when they did something not only did they give you something, but you knew they supported you. Having that feeling of support and encouragement was very important. When I came to NC State, the thing that I hated most of all was we added women's varsity teams and we didn't add sports information people. We didn't add people in the equipment room. We didn't add in the cafeteria. We didn't add anywhere, in the strength training, I mean we didn't add personnel, but we added people that all of those people had to service and take care of and still get paid the same amount of money but additional load. Well, I saw that right away, and I knew that is a tough situation. I didn't make that decision. That's just the decision that had to be made at that time. NC State was wanting to give women an opportunity to play at the varsity level, and this is the only way they could do it at that time. So I knew from the beginning that some people would have some hard feelings, and understandably so. I always was just as cordial as I could be to everybody because I was understanding of that, and I tried not to ask for things that we really didn't need, only for things that we needed at that time. I knew that we would have to prove ourselves. I felt that many people, once they saw that we could

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put a quality product out there and they could see our sincerity and our genuine love and gratefulness for the opportunity that a lot of people would be willing to do extra if they needed to because of the people they were. So this is always the way that we had to operate, and we concentrated on putting as great a team on the floor as we could so that we could make the people here proud of the program and see how sincere we were. We started having camps for girls at that very same time, and just to see how excited young girls were to have this kind of opportunity. So I think that it paid off for us in the long run just by being considerate of other people and understanding, sort of putting yourselves in their shoes and yet trying to always move forward and always get more of the things that we needed to be the best that we could be.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Were there ever points where you ever just got fed up with that part in terms of trying to get what you could by asking people rather than having all the extra resources added that you really did need?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, you know, we're still striving today in some areas. It's not something that can be solved over night. We've come a long ways, and yet we still have a good ways to go. Money is always a problem. You can legislate a lot of things but you can't legislate attitude. I find that to be the most important thing because if you have people who have the attitude, great attitude toward women in sports, often these people will find a way to get things done. Even if they can't do it at the first class level, they find a way to make it happen and help you no matter what, just because they feel it's the right thing to do and it's the best thing to do. I think that is a key more than anything else. We still have to have Title IX in force. We could never do without that I don't think at this point in time in history. Maybe there will come a day when we no longer need Title IX so

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to speak, but we still need it now in many situations. The more that we can cultivate this positive attitude toward women in sports and people just believing in that, these are the people who, even when resources aren't there, will find other ways to help you. It's going to be an ongoing battle in certain areas and for a long time.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Can you talk a little about the changes? You talk this effort to cultivate a positive attitude toward women in sports, sort of what the attitudes towards women's sports generally were when you started here at NC State and what has changed, and maybe what has not changed about broader university and community perspectives towards women in sports?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
When we first started you always had people who were in favor of having women's sports programs. There are always those people there. The difference is today there is a greater number of people across the university, within the community, within the boosters' Wolf Pack Club. I think across the board there are many more people who are in favor of women in sport now, and in the beginning there were just fewer numbers because it was new. I mean here are some people—Willis Casey who hired me was convinced this was something NC State needed to do, so therefore he stepped out and hired me as the first full-time woman coach in the state. This was because he believed it was the right thing to do. He believed that, and there were some others who believed that, but there were other people who just thought, you know, 'women in sports. We don't need that.' Or other people who would think, 'well, it's okay to have a women's team but we just don't need to put that much emphasis on it.' That's just people. But today there are many more people who believe that women should participate in sports. They believe that they can, and they can do it at a high level. They believe in the qualities and

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characteristics that can be developed in them through sport just as it is in men. I think you just become better people. You can be better mothers. You can be better in business. Whatever you want to do you can be better as a result of it. I even meet women in our camps. They came to our basketball camps and now their daughters come. They often tell me what a great experience camp was for them and what they learned from camp. So we know if you can learn something from going to a sports camp you could learn a great deal from participating at a high level for four years. Many more people see what can be developed in all people through sport now than they used to.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Do you think that there are ways in which that's particularly important for young women given other things that young women are taught by culture and society about what they ought to be?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I think in sports, to be successful you have to be more assertive. You have to be more aggressive. You can't be passive and not make decisions, and just lay back. You have to step up. You have to bring something to the table so to speak, and you have to be a contributing member. People are depending on you to contribute your talents and your abilities to the team so that we can be the best that we can be. I would think one of the biggest qualities is aggressiveness, because how can you play the game of basketball well and at a high level and not be aggressive? But you can learn. There are times to be aggressive. There are times to be more aggressive. There are times to be less aggressive, and that is all within sport itself. When you step off the court from practice then there's no need for the kind of aggressiveness that you needed when you were tackling that task on the court. But you may find in life other tasks that you need to be more aggressive, more assertive in order to have the results and the outcome that you

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need and that you want. But you have learned how to be aggressive and assertive when you were playing basketball. So I think that you definitely can transfer these qualities and abilities from one area to another.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
And you those are particular qualities that are especially good for young women to learn, needing to learn?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I think so, yes. For women I do, because discipline and commitment is across the board for everybody, and guys tend to be more aggressive and more assertive. They may learn through sports to be less so, because you have to have self control. You absolutely have to have self control so it can work both ways, and you have to have respect for authority. You have officials in the game, and you have coaches, and you represent not only yourself, your family, your team, your university, your athletic department, you represent all of these things so you learn expectations for when you represent. So, yes, I would think aggressiveness and assertiveness just come to my mind immediately as a little different qualities than a lot of people think of women possessing.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Well, you know over these years you, and other coaches, and other universities—I mean there's wonderful women's teams in North Carolina, women's college teams. It's really just terrific. What effect have you seen that having on girls in North Carolina, having these prominent teams and these achieving women? Do you see evidence of that having an effect on young women in North Carolina?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I have to believe that it does have an effect on a number of girls in our state. I know when we go out to talk to forty to fifty middle schools a year that every once in a while I receive a letter from a parent who says that one of our players was at her child's school that day, and that she said something to her child that just impacted her, and

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since we've been there her child's doing so much better in the classroom, or her child has a different attitude just from players talking to them and maybe giving them a pat on the back and a word of encouragement, and it just made an impact. So if I get letters from that I would imagine that coming to games, watching the players, getting to meet some of the players after the game, watching them on TV, I would have to believe that there are a number of girls in our state that are impacted by the college players in this state. I always try to tell our players that someone is watching everyone, and somebody is watching them. There is someone watching them: they are a role model, and they cannot get away from it. You should just always know that there is someone watching you, and you can and will impact somebody, and you just want it to be in a positive way. I truly believe that they are impacted because in our basketball camp we have a session. We're doing it right now, where our players go, and they are like a panel for the campers. We rotate five groups around, and they can ask our players questions, and our players tell them about themselves and about playing basketball at this level and about when they played in high school and everything. I think all of that has an impact. I think they look up to a lot of those players. And sometimes you look up to people, and then you're disappointed later because they're not who you thought they were. Sometimes a person can just make a mistake. Hopefully people understand making a mistake, and you can be open about it that you just messed up, and you know that that wasn't right. That's [a] good message to send to anybody. But occasionally if you turn out not to be [right] it can be disappointing. So that's why we have a responsibility to be honest. If you do mess up, then just say it, so the people who are watching will know. Everybody messes up, people can understand that.

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PAMELA GRUNDY:
We're taking a lot of time, and I know you're busy and need to get back, but I did have a couple of more questions that I wanted to ask. I think first, what do you think are the major obstacles that women's basketball and women's sports faces today? What are kind of the challenges you see to overcome in terms of just the broader progress of women's sports beyond the great progress it has made to this point?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, to make greater progress it also could create some difficult situations for us. To make greater progress— I personally believe that it's all tied up in media. I think that's where it is, and we can continue to have the best teams that we can have. We can continue developing women players and getting them to higher levels, have better coaches. I think better coaches all the way down. I still don't think we have across the board the kind of great coaches in every high school, junior high, rec leagues. I don't think every rec league has a league for young girls, so we've got all of that to do. We just need to keep working on developing better women's players. But even now, let's say, we get all that done, we still won't be there if the media doesn't warm up to us a little more, because every once in a while they show a few games. And we have the greatest ACC television package we've ever had, we were on TV a lot last year. It's just that you can't count on it year in and year out, and you start to get a good package, and then maybe you're on ESPN, and then they move you to ESPN 2, and then you move to the next ESPN station that they put on. And then ESPN is just showing men's sports. Media. Just like what about in the paper even today, 2005: we can't get a box score for our women's games. We don't have— when you see who won the ACC games. You'd like to see how many minutes each of their players played, how they shot the ball, their percentage, we don't have a box score. We just have a little line down there that might give the leading

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scores. I mean there's a box score. Come on. That's the game. So when you see that in the paper, that tells you everything. In their minds we don't even deserve a box score. So when I see something like that, yes. We've written in about it, and other people have written about it, and we still don't have a box score. So the media has to really embrace us in a much bigger way. And, of course, when the media does embrace us in a much bigger way, it brings on a whole new set of challenges when that happens.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Such as?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, we become so much more visible. So many more people know what is happening with basketball. Then people want to get involved in it, and then everything with men's sports and men's basketball become our challenges. Everything. All of it.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Right. Money, recruiting.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Yes. Money, recruiting, everything. People have higher expectations because of more visibility. More people, then more temptation to get in the gray area for recruiting and then need more money. That's just the bad part, so, who knows. I don't know what's best. I wouldn't really want to make that call. I feel my call is to put out the best team that I can possibly put out, and hope that people will enjoy watching their performance, and that we can share it with people because the more people you have I think it raises the standard of play. When the gym is packed and we're playing, that's some of the best women's games. And I think that's why men play consistently at a high level. Every men's team doesn't have packed gyms.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Right.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
But when the house is packed people playing know a lot is expected of them. And when you know a lot is expected of you you try to rise to the occasion. When

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there's few people there you don't feel that same adrenalin flow that you feel when it's packed, and you need that to rise to your highest level. Actually, pressure can either help or hurt you, but that's your choice. You can thrive on the pressure and the challenge, and it can bring the best out in you, or you can fear that pressure, and hate it, and sort of choke at the moment you need it the most. A great competitor is at their best when their best is needed, and if you thrive on a challenge, and you get a packed house you're going to want to play your best.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
That's really interesting. That just says a lot. You know there's still just so many people, and some of these media people may be among them, that just still lack respect for women's sports for whatever reason. What do you think can be done to change that if anything?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I don't know. I think it's a societal problem. It's almost like we need a psychiatrist, a sociologist, we need a social science person. We need all these people together to answer this question for us. I really feel that way. I would like for them to tell us why they won't accept women in sports. I'm not really sure of the people who are just head strong against women in sport. Everything that we have used to justify men in sports in higher institutions of learning has been about what they will get from the experience, the qualities and characteristics that will be developed to help them to be a success, and that they're the lifeline and sort of the heartbeat of the university. They are the school spirit. It's where it comes from. So why that wouldn't be for all people is an absolute mystery to me. It's just a societal, attitudinal problem. It will take generations to erase that, and we simply can't, I feel, do that much about it for those people until other generations come, and when they come into the world this is just the way it is. They don't

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know any other way. There's too many people still living that know other ways. It wasn't like this.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Kids grow up in Gibsonville knowing that girls played, but people other places didn't.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
They didn't. There's too many people who it just doesn't seem right to them. They didn't know it that way—and change. People have a hard time with change. They cannot view change as an opportunity. They do not have that viewpoint about change. Change to them is bad, and it was good enough this way so why are we wanting to do something different? But the people who can view change as an opportunity, they're with us. I'm just guessing we'll have to wait a number of generations.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
If you look back just at your life and think about the seven year old who got this basketball, and where you've come, and all that you've done, what thoughts come to your mind, how all this happened?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, the first thought is that I've been really blessed, and I don't understand it. I don't know how. I'd never planned on coaching basketball, and I certainly never planned to leave high school and go to college. Once I got to Elon I never planned to come to NC State, but then the people talked me into applying for this position. I was always happy where I was. I think happiness is a choice and is a state of the mind, and you can just decide ahead of time that you're going to be happy. It doesn't depend on anything else but just a choice you make. I know this because I read this story about an elderly lady who was legally blind. Her husband just passed away, and they were moving her into an assisted living home. As they were coming in to the facility the ladies started to tell her about the decorations and

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how beautiful it was, and she stopped them and she said, "you don't need to tell me about it. I have already decided that it was beautiful." She said, "I know that it's beautiful. I decided that before I came." And to me, that is a really neat statement. That's the way I felt. I was happy where I was. I knew, and I could be happy anywhere that I went but since I was happy where I was, why would I move? But people talked me into it. When I came to NC State, along the way there were calls from people about other jobs, but what they never knew was I'm not a person that would really move. I wouldn't have moved from high school if there hadn't of been a person who just wouldn't let go of the idea of me applying at Elon College, and I wouldn't have left Elon College if there hadn't of been a person who just wouldn't let go of my applying to NC State. If anybody perhaps had come along who wouldn't let go, but they didn't know that about me, because I always knew every place I was, I liked it. I had already decided. I knew I would like it because it was like my mom was, like I'm looking for the positives, for everything I really like about it. I'm not really looking for the things I don't like about it. I'm not magnifying those things. I'm not focusing on them. So it's very interesting. But I was just always happy where I was.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
One of the things that happened, obviously some years ago, you're known throughout the state as a basketball coach, and around the world obviously as a basketball coach, the Olympics and all the other things you've done, and then you've become very well known for having breast cancer. Could you talk about that a little bit in terms of leadership and being in the public eye on that?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I felt like it was really important for me to step forth and to say what was going on in my life. In August of '87 when my breast cancer was first diagnosed, there

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was a debate with the sports information department as to what we should release. At that time I was still planning to be the Olympic coach the following year. It was actually just ten months away that we would start training and selecting the team. I felt that it was very important that we come out with the details and the truth because at some point I would be in a press conference and they would pursue everything further if we were vague. I just felt like say[ing] that I have breast cancer and had a mastectomy. Let the doctor talk about it. These were the decisions that were made, and this is what's happening. And at that time people weren't talking about breast cancer as much. I think some people felt uncomfortable, but I really insisted on this. So we did the release, and the most interesting thing is because we did the release and it went on the AP wire across the country, from that point on I received so many letters from churches, from Sunday school classes, from individuals, from Bible study groups, people praying for me, and that was a result of releasing the truth about it. It could have never happened if we had just been vague about what the hospitalization was all about. So specific people knew how to pray, and so I was really blessed by all those prayers and everything. Then I had an opportunity from that point on to speak to many groups about breast cancer because I was open about it, and I shared my experience with all kinds of groups: some support groups for other women. People would call me or write me and ask me to call this person, write this person. I would do that. October, National Breast Cancer Awareness Month, many people want me to speak to this group, speak to that group. We started Race for the Cure in Raleigh, wanted me to be honorary chair for the first three years, American Cancer Society. Just over, and over, and over I have been honorary chair, and I have spoken and have done time after time after time. I have

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received letter after letter after letter of people who have thanked me for speaking out, and how much it has helped them. They say I've encouraged and motivated them in their own battle just from speeches I've given or from interviews that I've had or whatever. And then this past November, 2004, I had a diagnosis of a recurrence of breast cancer. Now the same thing. People call. People write. I meet people on the street. I just met someone yesterday who stopped me. She just wanted to thank me for being a role model. She's had breast cancer. It's been about a year, and she's open with it, and she's fighting it she says because I inspired her to do it. That makes me feel good, and I'm really glad because I know that people who stay positive and people who do what they can do, and they just stay strong and courageous, they have their best shot. And if I can help people to have that kind of mindset and that kind of attitude and to go on with their life I think they have the best chance. So I'm really glad to be a part of that, and I'll just continue to speak at places about it, to be a part of races that raise money for cancer research. The Jimmy V Foundation [a charitable organization dedicated to finding a cure for cancer], I've served on the board of directors. I've played in every golf tournament that they've had, and I'll just continue to be out there as far as breast cancer is concerned.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
It sounds like in a way it's not that different from being a coach, sort of what you try to accomplish with talking about it.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I know this: so many of the qualities and characteristics it takes in sport are very valuable in the fight against cancer. My faith is always—whether I'm a coach or whether I'm fighting cancer—my faith is at the forefront. I'm first just leaning and trusting on God, but He has given me a competitive spirit and determination, and I realize this is the toughest foe I'm facing. My arch rivals in basketball are tough, but they

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don't really hold a candle to the foe of cancer. Fighting that foe is the toughest battle that I have, and I know that determination, that commitment to a lifestyle change: what I'm eating and how I need to exercise and everything, I know all of those things kick in, and I have to have the discipline and the self control to do it. I understand that from sport very well. So it's a pleasure of mine if I can help anybody else understand it, many who have not been in sport and might not have used these qualities and characteristics to the extent that people in sport might have been called on to use them. They have them within them, and a lot of them they have used in raising their own families and all. They just need to realize, just let it kick in for cancer. So that's what I try to do.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
This has just been terrific. I appreciate it so much. Is there anything else that you think is important about—I'm sure there are many things—but is there anything that comes in mind that seems important to say at this point about your career, and leadership, or just anything?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
No. I just think of things, like for people who might lead, there's—let me think about how I want to say this. The people who are willing to go the extra mile, it's not a road traveled as much, and it's not crowded there, and I think people who are going to lead really have to get on that road. Nothing will ever replace hard word, industriousness. It's more than the willingness. Willingness sort of has a connotation of, 'okay, I'll do it.' But maybe your heart's not in it fully, but you're willing to do it. But eagerness on the other hand connotes your heart is in it, and I think that that eagerness to work hard really changes everything. All along the way, I had friends who always used to say to me (they don't say it any more but they used to say early on), "why do you work so much?

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You need to take a break." I could never fully get through to them that what I'm doing is not work. I love what I'm doing. I enjoy it. I want to do it. It's not like—they see me as spending this extra time and all, but I love it, and it's not work. So if you love what you're doing you're going to be so much better at it because it's never going to seem like work. And yet you do have to have balance. Balance is a key word. You have no set priorities, and you really have to know. Like for me sometimes I'd get off track, but I know that faith, family, and friends are my priorities. When I find I have no time for those things I'm out of whack, and I have to get back and get balanced there. I think it's important that people get their priorities set and that they know when they get out of balance and they get back into balance. Even though I love what I'm doing there is a limit here. If it runs over and really affects those three things that are my priorities then it's not good no matter what. I would encourage everybody to get their priorities straight, and also to know service is so important, giving back, because I think people think all the time of having to overcome adversity, and the ability to overcome adversity is critical in being successful and being a leader. You have to have the ability to overcome that. But there's the other end: you have to also be able to handle success. If you don't handle success well, then you may find that you don't keep having success. I think in having success people don't—they know they've got to overcome adversity, but I'm not sure they always understand that there's the opposite end, that they have to deal with that end just as well as the other end. You have to remember your roots at the other end. I mean, success you can rejoice and enjoy. The moment is awesome, and then you have to remember your roots.

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PAMELA GRUNDY:
How do you do that? How do you remember your roots?
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Well, I'll tell you. You remember your roots. After you remember your roots you really need to reach out and help other people. If you get in this cycle then you have a chance to continue success, I think. But without that cycle I think you're teetering. I think it won't stay there as long. Remember your roots, well, because there's been so many people that helped you along the way, and all of a sudden if you just start thinking that you're doing it, that's a dangerous mindset because nobody does something great without somebody else. I mean, what does one person do that's great? I don't think that happens. I think you have people along the way. I used to say in some speeches that they dug wells and we drink from those wells, and they built fires and we were warmed by those fires. And now after you have success you have to dig wells that others might drink from and build fires that others might be warmed by. It's a responsibility, and service. I once read a thing that said the first third of your life is about—wait a minute. Can we stop just a minute? Let me think about this because this I would like to share.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Okay.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Okay. I've got it. I wanted to be sure I had it in my mind.
[Recorder is turned off and then back on.]
SANDRA KAY YOW:
I once read something that said the first third of your life is about learning. The second third is about earning, and the third part is about returning. Somehow I sort of think there's a lot of truth in that, though I think learning is a lifetime process so you never stop, but perhaps the main focus early is learning, and then you have that period of your life the main focus is earning, and then the last, the main focus is returning or serving,

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though all along the way you should want to serve, and all along the way you should want to learn. I do think that a primary focus is at times of our lives—for instance, when people retire they have all that time that they could return. They could serve, and volunteer, and help others in a big way where you've been helping in smaller ways all along the way. I think there's a lot of truth to that. And all of that is tied in with success, and at the other end, and something that we should never forget.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
Well, thank you very much.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
You're welcome.
PAMELA GRUNDY:
I appreciate this.
SANDRA KAY YOW:
Lots of things come to my mind but—.
END OF INTERVIEW