© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview H-0034, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Two consecutive interviews are combined here, one each of Zelma Montgomery Murray and her husband Charles Murray. The couple speaks about their life in North Carolina mill towns and their jobs in the mills. They discuss the lack of control that workers had over their own lives: factories provided the housing and turned off the lights at prescribed bedtimes, company stores provided the only places to shop, and workers lived in relative isolation. The Murrays also recall how joining a union was not really a practical option given the level of control asserted by mill owners and the vulnerability of the workers. However, neither of the Murrays exhibits any self-pity or regret for the lives they've led.
A couple recalls living and working in the difficult conditions of North Carolina's cotton mill towns.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Mrs. Murray, I wanted to start by your giving your full name.
You mean my maiden name too?
Sure.
Zelma Montgomery Murray.
And when were you born? And where were you born?
Graham.
And what year was this?
1905, September 2.
What were your parents' names?
My father's name was Ollie V. Montgomery, and my mother was Cora Harden. She came from Randolph.
Randolph County.
What kind of work did your father do?
Textile.
And your mother? Did she work?
I don't remember anything about my mother, because my mother died when I was three years old.
So your father brought you up himself?
No, he married again. Well, he married again too, but I lived with one of
my uncles. Then my daddy married again; I went back and lived with him.
And then his second wife died, and I went to live with one of my
great-aunts up at Ossipee. Then I came back to Carolina and lived with
my uncle and aunt. I lived there with them I don't know how many years.
I left there and went further up the road to what they called (well, we
always said) Runt Town; it's on the Carolina and Glencoe
You had family then everywhere, didn't you?
Yes. Well, about all the Montgomerys lived down at Carolina.
Were they working in the mill there?
Yes, they worked in the mill.
Did you have any brothers and sisters?
Yes, I had one brother and one sister, and I've got a half-brother.
What kind of things do you remember when you were growing up? Did you have any close friends, or any particular jobs that you had to do around your house?
Oh yes. I had to wash dishes and things like that.
You didn't do any farming, though?
Oh no.
And who were your friends? Were your friends generally from that town?
Well, at that time I was living in Burlington; my father was living in Burlington. Oh yes, I had playmates. Then at Carolina the first time that I lived with that aunt I was real small, and I had friends, playmates. The Waddell girls, I remember them, and I remember Ollie Waddell. I remember a James girl, but I don't remember her name.
That's all right. What kind of games would you play with these children?
Oh, we'd just make play houses
Did you ever dream about being something? Did you ever play like . . . oh, you know, kids today would play like an astronaut?
I imagine we did. I don't remember, but I imagine we did.
What did you ever think about if somebody'd ever say to you, "What are you going to be when you grow up?" Did you ever tell people what you were going to be?
No.
So you never lived over here until you got married?
Not here in Glencoe, no. I worked at Glencoe, but I lived out here on this other road leading into Carolina.
You lived one time over here.
Well, I wasn't working then. For about a month my father lived on Back Street over here; I'd say I was about five years old then. But that's the only time that I did live here; he lived in Burlington.
I lived down here with my aunt, and I worked up here. When I become old
enough to go to work (you know, they had the Child Labor Law; you had to
be sixteen to work all day),
And what were you paid for your work? Do you remember?
I worked fifty-five hours a week, and I drawed $11.55.
That was for your first job? What was your job?
Spinning room. I would spin.
It wasn't as noisy as the weaving room, was it?
It was not quite as noisy. It was noisy; there was still noise.
Was it drafty in there?
Awful linty, yes.
Did you ever feel what they call "Monday morning sickness"?
No.
Did you ever feel sick from it, or short of breath or anything like that?
No, it didn't bother us. I worked in the spinning room until . . . well, Charlie and I married in '22, and I worked a while on that there. But they didn't treat me just right up there in the spinning room, so I quit. I never did go back to the spinning room anymore. They wanted me to go back; I never did go back. I didn't like the boss-man, and I didn't go back.
How did they not treat you right? What do you mean by that?
Well, you see, you had so many "sides," what they called. They got me to
swap with another party for so long, and then they would give me my
regular sides back. Well, a friend of mine and I, we worked in the same
alley. Anyway, when the time come for me to go back on my regular job,
my regular side, this boss-man, he wouldn't give it back to me. He give
it to somebody else, and took me over on . . . well it was the whole
length of the mill, in what they called a back alley. And I had to walk
the whole length of the mill pushing that. I was young then and that
walking didn't bother me, but it was just the principle of the thing.
And
You never went back to the Glencoe Mill?
I never went back to the spinning room.
Oh.
I didn't work for three or four years, I reckon it was. I went to work in what they called the finishing room over here. I inspected over there, but I mostly worked in the shipping department.
And you liked that better?
Oh yes. I worked there up until they closed down. I loved my job over there.
You liked it there?
Yes, I liked it there. You see, the cloth was in what they called bolts. And they would bring them in there to us, and we'd fill these orders. You know, the orders would come in, and we'd put a tag on them. And we wrapped them in paper. Of course, along towards the last that the mill run it was just in long what they called folds, I reckon. But I was the last one to work in the Green's cloth. Mr. Walter Green (he's a lawyer; you said you knew him), the last work I done down there me and him went down there and worked one whole Saturday afternoon and got up an order. They asked him to get up an order, and it had to be tagged and everything. And me and him worked down there one Saturday afternoon. That's the last work I done for them. Then I went to Brown's Hosiery Mill; and I worked there fourteen years and I retired.
What did you do there?
Well, that's kind of hard to say
What kind of salary did you make there?
Oh, I made good amounts.
Better than when you first started over here?
Oh yes, I made more rounds than I ever made down here. But, you know, wages were up more.
Right.
Now I was satisfied with my wages that I was making down in the finishing room, because it was just about as much there as it was anywhere else. But after that, you know, they didn't have to raise wages. So I went to Brown's. Yes, I was satisfied with what I made at Brown's. I made real good. I didn't make as much then as they make now, because, you know, the wages have gone up.
Well, about how would it compare to what you first made here at Glencoe? About how many hours a week did you work, and about how much were you paid for it at Brown's? Do you remember?
Oh, I worked eight hours a day.
Five days a week or six days a week?
Five days a week. There was a lot of overtime over there. They didn't
compel you to work, but they would ask you to. I was always like this:
if I knew it was necessary and all, then I did go back a lot of times
and work on Saturday. But I didn't make nothing by working on Saturday,
because if I'd go over there and work, say, five hours I would
No. Now that's over at Burlington?
Still, that was your job.
Let's go back a little bit to when you were a young child. How were you punished if you were naughty? Do you remember?
I got a whipping.
You did? By who, your father?
Yes.
With what? Did he have a switch?
Oh, a switch or something like that.
Now he had to discipline you himself, right? You didn't have a mother, right?
Well, my stepmother never did hit me, no.
How about you, Mr. Murray? Who did the disciplining in your family?
Well, my mother mostly. My father, he laid it on you once in a while.
And they would hit you with a switch?
Yes. My mother, when she got on me, why she used a switch or a strap or something. I never was too bad back then, though. I got along pretty good.
Well, Mrs. Murray, did you live most of the time with your father, or was it mostly with aunts and uncles?
Mostly with my aunts and uncles.
Did they ever discipline you?
Yes, but they weren't too strict.
What were mealtimes like in your house, in your home? How often during the week would you eat meat, for instance?
Oh, I don't remember. We had plenty to eat.
You did? Where would you do your trading? Where would you get food from? They weren't farmers, right?
Oh no, no. They would just raise a little garden. I believe the store was down at what they called Hopedale; it was a grocery store. I remember a man would come up on the weekend, say on Fridays, and my aunt would give him the grocery order (you know, what she wanted). Or if we had to have anything from the store and all, why my cousin and I, we would go down to the Carolina store and get it. But they weren't farmers, no.
Did you ever dream of having something that you just couldn't afford, or did you ever feel that you were too poor to get something that you really wanted?
No, I don't remember nothing about it. We weren't used to too much. We had plenty to eat and clothes, and we played and things like that.
Where did you get your clothes from?
The market in Burlington.
They weren't made at home? They were store-bought clothes?
Well, we'd get material, and we'd all (my cousin, my aunt and all) hack out something and make ourselves a dress. We were very happy.
Did you ever travel anyplace, go on a vacation?
No, we didn't. When the mills here would be standing and all, why we'd just mess around, go on what they called the creek over there. We'd go out over there on the creek and mess around.
Did you go swimming out there?
Yes, but we weren't supposed to
Why not?
Burlington was cleaning it up, you know, and getting ready to get their
water there. The water wasn't backed up by then. Well, there was a rock
over there; I reckon that rock (Charles, I know he's been over there) is
as big as two of these houses, wasn't it? You know, just flat on top.
And it was right behind, kind of behind my aunt's house. And me and
several of the girls, and a lot of the girls from up here would come
down. We'd go down there. Oh, that rock was as high as this house, but
there would be low places. You know, we'd go down there anyway, and that
water was just as clear. . . . Why, you could see the bottom of it. And
it wadn't no more than that deep. We'd just get
Hopedale is a bigger village than Glencoe, isn't it? Yes, Carolina.
I don't believe it's any bigger.
No.
About the same size?
Yes.
When you'd head into Burlington, did people ever say, "Well, here come the mill people" or anything like that? Did they call you the mill people? Nothing like that?
No, nothing like that. There was a man down there that had a Model T Ford. He run it for hire; and we didn't go to town much. So when we went, why, he'd haul people every Saturday.
To go to Burlington?
To go to Burlington and bring them back. Charged us a lot for it, this man, Mr. Massey. Let's say I'd go over there and back for fifty cents. We were just very happy; we'd all get together.
Do you think things have changed around here since those days?
Yes, it's changed considerably.
How?
Well, there's not as many of them here and all. Even not only here, but if they were here it's quite different. I don't know, they got to have more things to do than we used to have. Recreation and all. We'd just get together, a bunch of us, and just walk places and like that. But they don't do that now.
Where would you walk?
We'd walk over the river, and we'd go up the highway here. There used to be what they called a swinging bridge a way out over in yonder, and a bunch of us used to get together on Sunday afternoon and go over there. And that bridge went across what they called Stoney Creek, and we'd go across. Oh, we'd just do things like that.
What was Christmas day like around here? What would you do on Christmas day?
Well, we'd have a big dinner. We always had a Christmas play on Christmas eve at the church.
What kind of play would that be?
Well, we'd get up pageants and things like that, and say speeches and have songs.
How about Fourth of July? Did you have any kind of celebration here? Nothing like that?
No, just another day.
Did you go to work?
No, they used to do it on the Fourth of July. But I don't remember nothing about no celebration on July Fourth.
Do you think that you liked Glencoe better when you first came than, let's say, later on? Or have you always felt the same about Glencoe?
Oh, I always felt the same way about it. I liked Glencoe then, and I still like it. Of course, sometimes I think, "Well, I think it's time for us to move on out from over here." But then again I think, "Well, where would we move that would be as quiet and as peaceful as it is right here?" We don't have no convenience and nothing like that, but we're all old that lives around over here. And it's like this: if one's got anything, they divide it; and your trouble's my trouble. And we always try to help one another, you know in sickness and things like that. I think it's a good place to live. Of course, now I do sometimes feel like, "I think we ought to be moving on." But then again, I don't know where we'd live where it'd be as quiet and peaceful.
When you retired from Brown's Hosiery did you have any insurance policy or any pension or anything like that?
Yes, they had a small retirement fund. We didn't pay any in it; the
company gave it to us. It was what they called their profit-sharing. If
they had a good year, why that would be more to go into our
Did they try to speed you up in production when they had the bad years?
Oh yes, we was on production. I was on production part of the time; part of my work was on production. Yes, they expected you to get production. And if you didn't get production they'd have to pay you for what you were supposed to be making. And if you didn't get it they didn't talk ugly to you about it. They would just say, "Well, I see we had to pay you so-and-so." The boss-lady would come and tell you, "I see from my report that they had to pay you so-and-so. Is there any cause for it? Why did you fall back this week?" And you would tell her if there was something that happened and you didn't get it. She'd write it down and she'd say, "Well, let's see if you can't pull it back up." And that's all they did to us.
They wouldn't discipline you?
No.
They wouldn't dock you in pay or anything like that?
No.
Did they ever talk there about starting a union?
No, not while I was there. That was a real good place to work there.
Would you have joined if they had started a union? Did you ever think about that?
Well no, I never did think about it. But I always felt this way in a place like that: that you depended to your living. And I always felt like if the majority was in it, well then I wouldn't hold them back. That's all I know, although I don't believe in the union.
What about you, Mr. Murray? If they had had one over here at Glencoe would you have joined?
Well, I don't know.
Did you ever think about that?
I didn't think much about it, no. Well, the union's all right, but they
get too
Well, I never did think nothing about the union, but that's the way I feel. I think I would have thought about it if they had formed a union and the majority was going to. I wouldn't have been different; I'd have been with the bargaining. That's the only way to get anything is to stick together.
Yes.
When I worked at Brown there was never no talk of no union. And even when I worked down here for Mr. Green in finishing. I liked it both places.
When you worked in the spinning room was it quiet enough for you to sing any songs there?
Couldn't nobody hear you if you did
How about talk to each other? Did you get a chance to talk to each other?
Oh yes, we could talk to one another.
What did you talk about?
Well, we'd maybe talk about the work, first one thing and then another. You know, we had to be close together, because if we hollered at one another it might be something we didn't want the other woman on the other side to hear. So we'd always get close together and talk.
Right.
When you work in a place like that with this noise and all you will learn to read lips, won't you?
Yes.
You will learn to read one another's lips in their talking.
What did you think about when you were on the job? Do you remember how you passed the time? Did the work get monotonous to you?
Not in the spinning room. Now, in the finishing room it was just. . . . I don't know whether we were supposed to or not, but us three that worked in there, why we'd take a break, say, about nine o'clock, get us a Coke and pull out something to eat, and we'd eat it. We took off thirty minutes for lunch. But, you see, there was nobody to come back in on our job, because our job was just us. And when we left the door was locked, that's all there was to it.
Well, I've kept you for quite a while, and I appreciate your letting me come in here. Thank you for talking to me.
Mr. Murray, were you born here in Glencoe?
No, I was born in Graham.
What did your parents do?
They were textilers in the mill—textiles and farming too. They farmed some; along in the cool times, then they moved to textiles.
Maybe I should ask you what your parents' names were. What was your father's name?
William F. Murray.
And your mother's?
Barbara Murray.
What was her maiden name?
Payne.
She was a Payne.
What part of Graham did you live in? What mill did your father work at?
Well, I was born there, but he worked there in Oneida. Of course, the mill's been gone. Not Oneida, but Sidney.
When were you born?
1897, February 15, 1897.
So you have a birthday coming up pretty soon? Oh, you had your birthday.
Yes, last month. I'm in my eightieth year.
Well, you look very good for that. What did your father do in the mill? What was his job?
He was a weaver.
And you said he farmed and worked in the mill at the same time?
Yes. To start with he helped build this mill down here.
Which one, Glencoe?
Glencoe—public work.
What do you mean by that?
Well, he helped make the bricks and first one thing and the other.
When was this? Did he ever tell you when this was?
Well, the mill started 1881, but I don't know, I couldn't tell you the year.
Did he ever say there was another mill here before this one?
No, this was the first mill.
And so he was farming also in Graham, you said?
Well, he never went to farming 'til later when I'd got up five or six years old.
Did you know your grandparents?
No.
You never knew them?
Never knew them, no.
Did your father ever say what your grandparents did, what kind of work they did?
No, no, he never did. Well, if he did I never paid no attention. I never did know anything about them. They'd been dead when I got up.
How about your mother? Did she work in the mill too?
Yes, she worked in the mill when she was young. She worked in Sweps.
Swepsonville?
Yes. But that was a way on back. It might have been Sweps; it wasn't Swepsonville. But it burned down; the first mill burned. And then she went to Richmond and worked for awhile over there. So that's about all the millwork that I ever knowed—you're just talking about her working.
She wasn't working when you were a little boy?
Oh no, she never worked none since I come along.
Yes. She was taking care of the house?
Yes.
How many brothers and sisters did you have?
I had three brothers and two half-sisters. He was married twice: two girls by the first, and then four boys.
You never worked over in Graham, did you?
Oh no, no. I went to work in 1913.
Over here in Glencoe?
Started to work. We just moved in off of the farm.
So let me get this out: your father went from Graham to a farm?
No, he left Graham and come to Burlington-Aurora. And I guess he worked at Ossipee. I couldn't tell you how he traveled, but he worked at Ossipee.
So he worked at a number of different mills?
Oh yes. He worked at Aurora some and Ossipee and in here. Then he worked at Glen Raven some. But we farmed six years straight and moved back here the last time in 1912.
So for six years before 1912 you were farming?
Farming, yes.
Where was this? Here in Burlington?
Up here north of Elon, betwixt Elon and Ossipee.
What kind of farm was this? How large a farm?
Oh, he just would rent it, yes, farming what you might say for shares.
You worked on the farm then?
Oh yes.
What kind of jobs did you do on the farm?
Well, I plowed and I hoed, and first one thing and another. We raised cotton and tobacco, corn and stuff like that. You didn't handle a certain job on the farm.
You had to do everything?
Yes, everything you can do.
Was that hard work?
Oh yes, it was hard, but I liked it. I still like farming. Now, you know, the machines like they got now (tractors and things). . . . You just done it using a horse and turning plow; cut wheat with a swinging cradle.
How about cotton? How did you pick cotton?
Well, you pulled that out with your hands.
That's hard on your back, isn't it?
Yes, it's hard on your back, and fingers too. Well, we helped pull it off and carried it to the house, you know, and then have a cotton pulling: a crowd come in and help you pull it out of the burrs.
Oh, you didn't have a gin?
Oh no. You just got that and you carried it to a gin, and they'd cut the seed out, you see.
Did you ever have corn shuckings?
Oh, we had corn shuckings, wheat thrashings and all like that.
Did you ever have any turning frolics, spring frolics?
For cutting wood? Oh yes, yes.
And would your mother cook up a big meal for that?
Well yes, they'd cook. And of course the neighbors would come in and help her, you know, cook. They always done that around here in the neighborhood. When the neighbors had a wood-cutting, corn shucking or whatever, women would go in and help.
And were there many neighbors close by that you would have many. . . ?
Well, yes, there was a pretty good bunch. They wasn't too close to us, but they'd come in. See, back when I was coming on, around through the country it wasn't but six or seven. You didn't live next door like you do around through here.
Right, around here.
But now you can ride in the country and never get away from a house.
Did your father ever tell you why he decided to take up farming in the first place: why he decided to rent this farm, why he left the mill?
Well, he just wanted to get out of it, I guess. He was used to being out; I reckon he was raised up that way, used to being out.
Out of doors?
Yes. Now the first farming that I knew of or he said anything
So he enjoyed farming as much as he did working. . . ?
Oh yes, he enjoyed it. But back along when I come along you couldn't make too much from farming. You might make a living renting, you know, and you've got to give the other fellow so much.
How much did he have to give, do you remember?
I believe he give him about a fourth.
And then he decided to move to Glencoe?
Yes.
Well, the last work he did, he watched down here. And he was way up in years, real old.
Oh yes. He worked 'til he was seventy-five years old.
Oh really? But did he ever talk to you about why he moved back to Glencoe? The farming got too tough?
Well, it got too tough, and he couldn't make too much. We cut a lot of stove wood, and would sell stove wood around Burlington. We'd sell a lot of stove wood and cut it up. They used to use stoves, you know, that burned wood. But you don't find no more of them unless you go out in the country some.
No, right. Where did you live when you came to Glencoe? What house did you live in?
You mean the last time I moved back here?
When you moved back in 1912.
We moved onto Back Street, we called it from here. We moved up there.
Then he left here and he went to Aurora. Then he come back
I see. When he would take a job somewhere else, like at Aurora or Ossipee, did the whole family move with him?
Oh yes.
So you moved quite a bit?
Oh yes, he did; he moved a lot.
Why would he move? Did he say?
No, he was just dissatisfied one place, and he just thought the grass was greener over there, you know. And he moved.
Did you ever work in any of these mills?
I worked down here.
At Glencoe?
Well, and I have worked at Burlington Mills.
Which one?
Burlington: Pioneer Plant over there.
Well, that was when the Depression was.
And I worked at Plaid Mills too; of course Burlington Mills's got it now.
That was E. M. Holt, Plaid Mills?
Yes.
When you came here in 1912 did you go to work here?
Not right then. I didn't go to work right straight, you know. I was about fifteen years old, sixteen maybe.
When you first worked in the mill?
Yes.
And did you ever have any kind of work before that, any kind of work that you did?
Nothing but the farming. I worked down here. And then when they got to short time, you know, I got on driving a truck. I drove a truck down here some, a mill truck. And then I worked with a fellow hauling granite on the road. And I worked with a fellow in Burlington that dug basements and things, fixed yards.
So you did contract work?
Yes, contract work.
You mentioned before "public work." What do you mean by "public work"?
Well, that's when you get out on different jobs; that's why it's called "public work."
Different jobs from what?
Yes, like building or something. I was carpenting some, and truck driving.
That's all public work?
Yes, we called that "public work."
What about farming? Was that public work?
Well, I wouldn't say farming. You could call it public work if you did a
job with somebody
Oh, I see. So if you worked and got hired by somebody that would be public work?
Yes, that's right.
But if you owned the farm yourself that wouldn't be public work?
Oh no, it'd just be farming. Now if you worked in the mill, that's textiles.
I see. How about if you worked in tobacco?
Well, that's still farming. Anything that's raised out like that is connected with farming, you know.
That's not public work?
No.
I see. Let's talk a little bit about your home here in Glencoe. How many bedrooms were there?
Five.
Five bedrooms?
Yes. It was a five room house, with about three bedrooms, you might say. It had a kitchen and a front room, of course.
I noticed some of these houses have those buildings in the back. Were those kitchens at one time?
Oh yes, yes. You cooked and ate in them.
You cooked and ate there too?
Yes, that's right.
How long ago would people do that? When you were coming up?
No, when I was coming on up . . . well, I remember back when these
kitchens was built. Well, they might have been built when the houses
were built too, but I don't know about that. But I know that they
started right up there in a house or two and come down this way, and
then all down over there. There wasn't too many houses built here to
start with,
So it was a small village?
Oh yes. It was just a wilderness
When you came over here?
No, not when I come, but when they come building.
Oh right, right.
Charlie, I've heard your mother say that when these houses were built they was just fields. There was no kitchen out here, and she said that the kitchen was built off.
It was just a four room house: two down and two up.
I've heard her tell about going down the steps and going out to the kitchen in the snow early one morning and all.
To get a fire started?
When the children were little.
Oh, the kitchen was off about as far as to the end of the kitchen here to the kitchen where the door was.
And where was your bathroom?
No, didn't have one.
Out of doors?
Ain't one in here now.
Still?
There's just one or two houses that've got it.
Indoor plumbing?
That's right. I don't see how they got by with it; look like the State Board of Health would have come in and made them do something about it.
When you came in to work here what was your first job?
Oh, going through the wheels, you know, and getting out quills that wanted filling, empty quills. You'd have to gather them up and take them back up to the spinning room, and they'd refill them and put filling on them when they were using the looms.
This was a weaving job?
Oh yes, it was weaving, finishing. They finished cloth back here then. They wove it, and then the nappers made a soft finish out of it—like pajamas and different things.
I see. Who owned the mill back then?
Robert Holt; Bob Holt, we called him. He was the one that started it. Well, back then years ago all the plants was Holt's.
Right, over at Alamance, Belmont.
Yes. That was the first, in Alamance.
Right. Do you remember what they paid you, or how long you had to work a day?
A dollar a day.
And how many hours was that?
Ten hours a day, and five hours on a Saturday morning: fifty-five hours a week, a dollar a day.
So how long did they pay you that? Do you remember when you got a raise, an increase?
Well, I went off of that and I went to weaving, you see. See, in weaving
you're on production, and your wages'd be up and down. You'd make one
good week, and then another week you might not do so good. But a dollar
a day was the standard wage, you see. That was about all
I see, because you were on production.
Oh yes.
And did you like the job?
Well yes, I liked it, yes.
Who was your supervisor there? Do you remember?
Matt Marshall; he was superintendent.
Yes. Did he live around here?
Yes, he lived up here in Burlington, just above the village. Oh, he was superintendent here for years. He was the only superintendent I ever—although I worked for some later years, because he died.
Who were the most important people in the village? Do you remember who were the most respected people in the village?
Well, that'd be hard to say, because they was all pretty good people. I'd hate to pick out any certain one, because there might have been some that they thought had a little more than the others.
Did Mr. Holt live in the village?
Yes, he did to start with, right down at the end house here.
Oh, the one with the porch on it?
Yes. But they built him a house over here behind me on the highway. They built it for a doctor, Dr. Moore. Well, he lived there a while; then he left and went to Burlington.
While we're still talking about working in the mill, did you stay at weaving for all those years that you worked over here?
Well, I stayed at weaving, oh I don't know, maybe forty years, here and
there in Burlington Mills and Plaid Mills too. Altogether
How would you compare working in the mills to farming? Which did you like better?
Well, I liked farming the best, so far as work business. But I had a little more money when I went to the mill work. I'll just tell you the truth, when I first come on I didn't know what money was, 'til I got up in my teens. Farming, you just didn't know what money is.
So then really the first money you made was over here at the mill?
Well, I worked out some on the farm for somebody else. I'd work for them some, you know. But, I mean, I didn't know what any amount of money was. I'd work a day or two for somebody around and pick up—they didn't pay anything much.
What would you do with your money when you got paid?
Well, I'd buy clothes with it, and like that.
Did they pay you in cash or in scrip?
Yes, they paid in cash.
Was this store down here open then? Was it a company store?
No. It was further on back before we ever moved back here, you know. Oh, this store has been here for . . . I reckon it's been here longer than the mill started.
Was it a store then, or was it just an office?
It was a store, a company store. I've told different ones when the mill first started that they paid off in terkels.
Terkels?
Yes
Oh, what is that?
That's some fish in the river. And they'd send a wagon off and get terkel, and they'd come back and pay you off. And you'd go to the store. They'd give you a big terkel; you'd go to the store and buy anything, and you'd give them the big terkel and they'd give you little terkels back.
That's just one of his jokes.
That's a joke.
That's OK; I like that.
It was so far back when I told that, but I did it
When you left mill work you started doing some other kind of work, then?
Oh yes, I'd do different things.
Do you remember if, as you were coming up working in the mill, they started to make changes in the kinds of equipment that they had?
Oh yes.
What kind of changes would they make?
Well, they'd make different quality of clothes, you see, different patterns and all that. They gotta have the last go-round to make dress good things. I used to weave samples; we'd make a sample, just a sample of a bigger piece.
Did they ever try to increase the speed of the machines to turn out more? Could they do that? Could you increase the speed of the machines?
Not in the weaving, not back then. Of course they've increased the speed now with the different machines. But back then it was just about the same old gait.
Did they ever have what they called the "stretch-out" here? How did that work?
Well, they stretched you out; they give you more than you could do, give you more machines than you could operate like you ought to. Yes, we ran into that.
When was that, about? Do you remember that, when that would have happened?
Well, that was long before, a few years before they shut down.
Was it after World War II?
Oh yes, it was in. . . . Well, they closed down in '54.
So they had this stretch-out before that?
Oh yes. Well, they done got out of that about, I don't know, maybe a hundred looms operating. They had three hundred and some looms. But they had forty-eight looms, and they had us on, I believe, sixteen looms apiece, you know. Well, they come along and put us on twenty. Well, that was more than we could handle. But they'd stretch it out and give you more than you could take care of. Like it is now, they've got the weavers stretched out, in these other mills.
They do?
Yes.
What happened if you couldn't handle it?
Well, you just wouldn't get good production, you see.
And did you ever complain to the foreman about it?
Oh yes, we complained, but that didn't matter. We'd tell them if we
didn't get good production then that would probably set us a
I see.
See, they paid you by the pick, and a loom made 160 picks a minute. The
shuttle went back and forth; that was was called a pick, you know. And
they had a clock up there and
So did you ever feel kind of pressured, with that clock there?
Oh yes, you was pressured all the time.
You didn't have time to take off and talk or anything like that?
No, no, no.
Did you get any lunch break?
They didn't stop. You had to stand up and eat like a horse
Really?
That's right, you just worked right on through.
How many hours was this, ten hours a day?
No, we run eight hours then.
Yes, that's right, after the nineteen thirties you'd been on eight hours.
Oh yes, yes. Yes, they just run eight hours straight, and you'd just eat the best you could for dinner.
Hmm. So you brought your dinner with you?
Oh yes.
Did they have more than one shift here?
They had three.
So the mill was going