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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview H-0054, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Herman Newton Truitt ran a grocery store in Burlington, North Carolina, in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s (exact dates are difficult to find). In this interview, he recalls his rural childhood and store ownership in a mill town. This interview is an excellent source of information on southern food traditions: Truitt details what mill workers ate when they broke for lunch at his store, when they gathered on his father's porch to swap stories on Saturdays, or when they celebrated Christmas. The food traditions of the impoverished South were well-established by the 1930s: mill workers ate beans and fatback, canned meats, pigs' feet, sweet potatoes, and cornbread. In addition to describing his customers' shopping habits, Truitt briefly reflects on changes in the grocery industry and the mill business at mid-century, and the economic status of mill workers. Truitt recalls mill workers in Burlington in relative financial comfort, a recollection that may complicate contemporary views on the health of mill towns. The interviewer spends much of the interview looking at photographs and a store ledger with Truitt, which may be of interest to researchers.
Herman Norton Truitt describes running a grocery store from the 1920s to the 1940s. The store was patronized primarily by mill workers in Burlington, North Carolina.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Let's start with your full name.
I'm Herman Newton Truitt.
Now, what's your wife's name?
My wife's name is Gladys Woodson Truitt.
And what about your mother and father?
My father was Egbert Truitt and my mother Josephine Lester Truitt. My mother's still living—she's ninety-four years old.
Where does she live?
She lives right above the store here.
Now what do you remember about your grandparents, anything much about them?
Yes, I remember my grandfather was known as "H" Truitt. His initials were "W.H." but they always called him "H". My grandmother on my father's side was Amanda Tickle Truitt. On my mother's side I never did know my grandfather because he died before I was born. I remember my grandmother on my mother's side.
What was her name?
Can't think of it. I believe she was a Lester. Her husband's name was George Lester.
Both your grandparents, both sides, where did they live?
On my father's side my grandparents lived in Alamance County over in the Shallow Ford Church area. My grandparents on my mother's side lived in Rockingham County in the Bethany area.
Did they live on a farm?
Yes, both their grandparents lived on a farm.
What kind of farming did they do?
Tobacco farming was their money crop, and of course they did vegetable farming too, specially for their own use. But my grandfather, H. Truitt, he liked to load up his wagon twice a week, go into town and peddle butter and eggs and whatever vegetables they had in the garden at the time. And then of course they had an apple orchard. He would peddle apples. I remember going to my grandfather's house—just a youngster—and for the wintertime he would make what he'd call a hill of apples. They would dig a place in the ground and put straw in it, then have a frame, put dirt over it. They would store apples, turnips and things. In the wintertime, around Christmastime, when there'd be snow and ice on the ground we'd go out there, out to the apple hill and get us some apples.
And they would stay pretty good?
Yes, they would stay pretty good. Sometimes one around the edge would be a little icy, but we enjoyed that.
What kind of apples?
Well, I don't remember the name of them. They just called them a winter
apple. Then there was another name they had for some was a Peg Teg. I
never heard of it since, but grandpa had some we called Peg Teg. We had
them in the wintertime. And he was a great one for raising watermelons
in the summertime. He raised big ones. We'd go
What town would he take things into town to sell?
It was in the mill sections of Burlington, where he had regular customers.
Along about what time would this have been?
Well, that would be approximately sixty or more years ago, because I was a schoolboy then.
Did you ever go along with him?
Oh, yes. In the summertime I would go out and spend the day with my grandfather. I always loved horses. He had a buggy mare named "Maude," a black mare. We lived in Burlington when I came of school age and still went to church out at Shallow Ford. Grandfather would come into town on Saturday and I would go back with him. I would bring the buggy mare back to town. We had a surry. We'd hitch the buggy mare up to the surry on Sunday and we'd go out to Shallow Ford to Church on Sunday. Then we'd eat dinner with grandpa and grandma. Then I would take the mare back. They'd always get after me about trotting her too much. She was a good trotting mare. They'd always get after me about trotting her too much, because it was too hot.
Would your grandfather use this mare on his wagon when he'd come to town to peddle or not?
Oh, yes. She was a utility horse. You could ride her, she was good for
riding. Plow her, light plowing
Would he have more than one horse on his farm?
Oh, yes. He had another horse and raised a colt from this mare, too. Called him "Major." They gelded him. He never was the quality his mother was, but he made a pretty good horse.
Would he hitch up two horses to his wagon?
He usually used a one horse wagon.
Did you ever go around with him on his rounds, when he went around the mill villages.
Oh, yes.
Could you tell me about what time of day you would get up, when you'd go, what you'd sell, and whatever you can remember?
We didn't get up very early. He got the help that was on the farm, he'd
get them working. Then we'd get on the wagon and start on down the road.
He had a peculiarity. When he got on the wagon and started off, he'd
start telling them what to do on the farm. They'd gather all around and
he'd keep telling them as he went down the road. And get louder and
louder. And of course, sometimes they'd get out of range and at times
they'd go down the road and hide so they could still hear what we was
telling them to do. Because they didn't want him to come back and accuse
them of not doing what he said. It was kind of the way he went. He
They were pretty close about eating eggs at the table out there, because grandpa could sell them. Money was kind of scarce, so usually save the eggs to sell, and most of the butter, too.
When you'd go into Burlington, what would be the names of communities that he would sell?
There were three: Elmira section, Elmira Mills it was at that time, and then the Lakeside section, Lakeside Mills, and then Plaid Mill section. Three major mills in west Burlington was the area he covered.
Would he go door to door?
Oh, yes. Door to door.
Would he have any way of letting people know he was coming?
It was established. He would go on Tuesdays and Saturdays and they'd look for him. He would go to the same houses. He had regular customers.
And they knew pretty much what time he was going to get there?
Yes, and he knew pretty well what they were going to want.
What kind of payment—would they work out credit or would they pay cash every time he came around? Or would different people do it different ways? What do you remember about that?
I don't remember exactly, but I think back in those days people were better pay than they are now. They were people who had lived in the community all their life, you might say, since they were of working age. If they wanted to pay him pay day, he would let them, I think. I'm under the impression he didn't lose anything crediting those people.
Would people pay in other ways besides money sometimes?
No, I don't think so because in operating the farm he was after money so he could buy his fertilizer and seeds, so on and so forth.
Did he sell anything that would have been manufactured somewhere else?
No.
He just sold his own produce?
No, he just sold his own produce. Now, sometimes I don't know whether he
did or not. He could have sold some feed if anyone needed any, maybe
some flour. He raised his own wheat and had the flour ground, you see. I
remember the
Would he stay in all day and come back at dark?
No, it was usually a half a day trip. It was probably about three miles from where he lived to the section. It was usually half a day trip, probably be a little late for his lunch. But he'd usually go back for it.
You talk about people who were working on the farm. Who would that be that would be listening to those instructions?
That would be his children. He had a daughter who was working and he had a son who was home at that time. Part of the time there were two sons, but World War I one of them went away to the army. He stayed at home a little while after he came back. My father was the oldest of the boys. When he got married he cut a section of the farm off and gave it to him. He built his home on it. As others came along he did the same.
How many children did he have?
I think it was seven, I believe. Three boys and four girls. Let's see there was Thelma, Edith, Mabel, Gladys. That's all, four girls, three boys.
And your father was the oldest?
He was the oldest. He lived on the farm that he gave him for just two or
three years. Somebody called me the other day and reminded me that
during one session at Elon College, my father and mother, when I was
doing my first year of life on this earth, they went out there and
operated the
Now, when were you born?
October the twenty first, 1909.
Do you know when your mother and father were born?
No I don't. My mother is ninety-four. She was ninety-four this September. And my father was about a year younger than she. Of course, he died in seventy-one. Then after that, they went back to the farm and stayed about another year. Then they moved to town, to Plaid Mill village. He drove the wagon, picking up shipments for the mill and taking shipments to the freight station for them. And a bunch of the people who worked there got together and they formed a co-op. They all left some money, and they began a food store. It was known as the United Store Company. He operated that for several years until, I guess it was about 1918.
That's when he began?
That's when he stopped. They had a company store over at Altamahaw. Mr.
Joe Gant talked him into going out there and managing it for them. So he
went out there and he stayed one summer at Altamahaw, we did. That was
about this time. Then
That's the store we're in now?
That's the store we're in now. At the time it was quite different than it is now. He operated this for several years.
Do you remember when it was he bought this store?
I think it was in August of 1922. In those days everybody running a
grocery store—they hadn't started calling them food stores then—everyone
that operated one gave a delivery service. The reason I can remember
about the date is, he bought an ‘A’ Model—no, ‘T’ Model— Ford Roadster
to make a light delivery truck out of it. We delivered groceries at that
time. In the
In 1940 we remodeled it, but now it's antiquish-looking. Now, what else do you want? Do you want anything about me?
Oh, yes. Why don't we go back to the United Store Co. and talk about the co-op? Who benefited by that, you say it was a co-op? Could you explain how it worked?
The customers benefited from it. They all bought stock in it. It was incorporated and they all bought stock in it. And it made money, while they kept their prices in line with the other food stores. It made money. At the end of the year when they figured up their profits, it was divided among the stockholders.
How many stockholders would there be, a handful or a hundred?
Oh, I don't know, it probably got up to a hundred maybe. But it started out fewer than that.
Everybody who was a stockholder, they bought their food there? It was set up for them. But other people could come and use it too?
Yes, it was open to the general public, everybody. Operated just like an independent store was operated.
When this store opened in 1922, were you working here then or what did you do?
Well, you see, I was young then. I was a schoolboy. I worked here. Back in those days the law enforcement was not a strict as it is today. I started delivery trucks out on the road when I was about twelve years old.
You're talking about the Model ‘A’?
Even before then, a Model ‘T’.
You say you had been driving a delivery truck.
Yes. You want me to talk about myself for a while? I drove this truck and did this delivering before and after school. People weren't as demanding back in those days as they are now. If you told them you were going to deliver the groceries in the afternoon after school, they would seem to be pleased with that, mostly. I persuaded my father to let me work in the mill one summer. So I got a job working in the Plaid Mill. And I worked that for my summer holiday.
During the summertime in 1927 I carried filling down in Plaid Mills. Just for the one summer. And of course I went to the Burlington High School and graduated from that in 1928. The last couple of years I was in high school I played a little football.
I went to Elon College, graduated from Elon College in 1932. Got me a job
teaching school. I had majored in math and commerce. So I got me a job
teaching in Reidsville and I taught there for two years, teaching math
and typing mostly. And at that time father, who was operating the store
here, was wanting to sell it. So I asked him if he'd sell it to me—I
didn't have any money, teaching school for seventy dollars a month (I
believe the second year I got $72.50, two dollar and a half a month for
a year's experience). So he made a deal with me, and I bought it from
him. Paid him for it after a little while. In 1940 we remodeled it and
made it a little larger. Modern looking for the time. It was considered
kind of modern looking for the time.
When would that have been?
That would have been in about forty to forty-two. That because we had
remodeled in 1940, and our best years were in a year or two to come. I
guess we worked about four employees at our highest volume. We didn't
keep modernized as the time went on. I thought about it, but doing very
well I thought we could hang on for a little while. Children needing to
go to college—we had two in college at one time. So we maintained that
and let them get their education. Our oldest daughter, Patsy, Patsy
Sharp, has her own accounting business in Burlington: Patsy Sharp,
Accountant. Then our second child was Tommy, and he's at the present
time the superintendent of the city schools in Danville, Virginia. Our
youngest daughter, Susan, married Tom who's a chaplain in the army. They
live at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Just recently there was a book published
entitled Thou Shall Not Kill, and Susan—, our
daughter, wrote the last chapter of that book for them. The chapter is
entitled "Woman's Lib and Abortion".
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
The book is about abortion, entirely. She wrote the last chapter in that. Its the impression that the book's pretty well accepted.
Now that business has slowed down because of the modern supermarkets, we
are in the process of trying to close it out.
Let's go back. We've got two or three more minutes. I'll come back some other time and we can talk some more. When you all were here doing business, where would your business come from in this community? Were there other stores here or were you the only store?
There were some smaller stores, but we were the largest store. We had one of the most complete lines in the neighborhood. Over in Glen Raven they had a pretty large village, which they've done away with now. Then we reached out in the country section which is west of here. We had at the time a better store than was in Elon College, so we drew from Elon. And we drew customers from the country, from Altamahaw and Ossipee.
And you say people used to come in here on Saturday night sometimes?
Well, yes. The time that I've told you about this morning when we were
talking was when my father operated the store. He kept it open late. We
used to, when we started, keep it open till eight or nine o'clock in the
night. But when World War II came along and goods were scarce, rationed
and all, we started closing at six o'clock. We maintained that for the
rest of the period when we were trying to do a full amount and do all
the business that we could. We started our retirement nearly two years
ago. I mean closing out the business
But when I was a schoolboy, along about the time I was in seventh grade—I remember particularly that—father would stay open until nine o'clock on Saturday nights. At that time they had a bunch of pretty regular customers who would maybe celebrate a little bit by…smelling the bottle, or tasting a little when they'd come by. Sometimes there was a jews harp, and a violin, what you'd call a fiddle. Play the fiddle and jews harp around on Saturday night. They'd sit around with—they had pig feet in the barrel, crackers in the barrel. They'd eat pig's feet and crackers and sausage and snack like a person drinking likes to do sometimes.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
We'll go from over here in this right hand front corner where these barrels are, and tell me what you'd think would be in the barrels.
Those are what we call "nail kegs"—they have nails in them. Being a
general merchandise store, we had all kind of things. Right above them
on the counter is bread, loaves of bread. It looks like it might say
"sandwich". The earliest bakery I remember in Burlington was operated by
a man named "Berg" and I think the bread was called "Bambi Bread". I
could be confused there a little bit, but I think that's what it was. On
the counter next to the bread there was the charge register, where we
kept the accounts in. Above that is a showcase which
Back here toward the back?
Yes, sweet potatoes, things like that. See the scales on the lower part of that counter. Now, underneath there probably was the fat back meat. And on top there was a hoop of cheese, where you'd cut the cheese. There might have been a tobacco cutter there too, where you could plug tobacco. Tobacco would come in plugs, and you'd have a cutter you'd cut it in two with.
What about these boxes in front of the baskets of onions and potatoes?
I don't know what that is. That's probably some shelf stock of canned goods he hadn't put up. It's stacked there out of the way.
Up here on the shelves, behind—this is your father here?
Yes.
Behind his head and working our way back to the front, can you identify any of these …
Those canned goods would be canned vegetables, canned tomatoes, canned
beans, canned peaches. I don't know whether they had fruit cocktail back
in those days or not. If they did, he'd probably have some. Now on the
top of the shelf there you can identify Pilot Knob coffee in those cans
there.
And these certificates, are these licenses?
Those are probably his tobacco license and drink license he had to sell.
Now we can go back here in the corner on the other side of your father.
That would be cleaning powders, washing powders. I think they're back there. Then next to that counter is a rack that has cookies in it. On top of that I think is crackers, probably packaged crackers. I don't see it, but in those days we had crackers come in barrels where you weighed them out, too. Then behind Mr. Thompson standing there is a pot-bellied stove. And probably some chairs around the stove are boxes the customers would come in and sit down on. To his left there you can see a seed rack with the date 1930 on it. Then going across there it looks like glass containers, might be preserves, things of that type. There might be some vinegar. Most of the vinegar sold back in those days in any amount, large amount, particularly as much as a gallon would be in the barrel in the back room. You see, there's a door right there. And there was a room back of it. Back there he had vinegar barrel—pump the vinegar out—and a mollasses barrel. And there would also be a container for kerosene oil. People in those days didn't heat with kerosene oil, but they cooked with it.
When we first came out here in twenty-two or twenty-three there wasn't
any electricity out here. It came later, so there
What kind of container would the vinegar be in?
They might bring in a gallon jug, glass gallon jug, or probably they had a glass milk bottle. When you got milk from the dairies back in those days it usually came in bottles. We didn't have any plastic cartons. They would use a bottle. Also, they would for their molasses, too. But, should they come to the store and want some molasses and didn't have a container to put it in, we'd put it in a paper bag. Sold the blackstrap molasses and also a favorite of my father's to sell was Covington's Extra-Fancy. It would come in sixty gallon barrels. To put it in a paper bag, you would take a paper bag which would hold it well. You would use two bags, put one inside of the other and draw the molasses in there. And that would hold well untill they get home and could put it into a container. Sounds a little strange, but that's the way it was done.
What size of paper bag, how much would it hold?
Well, you would want a paper bag large enough to kind of squeeze the top
together and twist it. So, a six pound bag would hold a quart of
molasses all right. That's about what we would use. The pump had a
measuring device on it, it would
Would there be anything else in that back room?
Well, yes, his flour stock would be back there. Now when we sell flour,
today, when the supermarkets sell flour, they sell it mainly in
two-pound, five-pound, and ten-pound bags. But back in those days,
usually started at a twenty-four pound bag—in place of twenty-five, they
place it in twenty-five pound now. You had a twenty-four, a forty-eight
and a ninety-six. A ninety-six was a half a barrel. Didn't sell much
light bread, no canned biscuits. So the main bread for people in the
village and the farms around here was—they bought flour and they made
biscuits. They made their own biscuits. So naturally, the families were
larger than they are now. They used larger quantities of flour. We would
sell a few half a barrel bags, which was ninety-six pounds, right many
forty-eights, and of course the big seller was twenty-four pound bags
for the smaller families. And back there also would probably be some
feed, maybe some dairy feed, chicken feed, laying mash, which is also a
chicken feed, and horse feed. Not showing in that picture…I tell you,
this building has been enlarged since this picture was made…over without
an entrance from this part was a tin section built on to the store.
Now to try to finish out what's in the picture here … back here on the wall are these different advertisements. There's an ivory soap advertisement, and this one looks like a Lydia Pinkhams …
Yes, that was a ladies tonic. They took, the ladies a tonic they took for themselves. It was quite popular back in those days. Ladies didn't go to the doctor as much as they do now. So they used what they called patent medicines back in those days. Pinkhams was a popular ladies medicine.
There's this "Chicken Dinner".
"Chicken Dinner" was a candy bar that advertised and was quite popular back in those days. As I remember it was probably similar to a Baby Ruth now. It had the nuts and things in it.
Up here in the very front, these boxes.
There's shoes, shoes are in those boxes in the front. There's a pipe rack
with pipes sitting on it. Over on
You were going to tell me about bartering.
The store being located out in the mill village away from town just a
little ways. Of course, the way it's grown now, it's almost in town. But
the farmers out here in the country would come in, in the wintertime
they would have butter and eggs, and they would trade it. Trade it for
things they needed like sugar, soda, salt. If they needed any meats—most
of the farmers raised their own meats—sometimes they would trade the
meats, sad meats and hams, for groceries. In the summertime there was
produce they'd raise in the garden, beans, tomatoes
If they brought more produce in, a farmer brought more produce in, then he'd trade it out. Since it necessarily would be trade so he could get the one profit. He would write him what he'd call a due bill. He would write his name on that, put the date, and put "Due in Merchandise such and such an amount". Then when that person wanted some more groceries, something that he didn't have, he would bring that due bill in and use it to pay for the goods that he got.
When did you all discontinue this practice of trade?
Well, it was actually never discontinued. We discontinued probably even
trading sometime because when labor
When did people quit trying to do that, quit trying to bring in vegetables and produce. People don't still do that now. When was the last time somebody did that?
It's still done some, I understand. Up until a little over two years ago, when we started phasing out our business, we would still do it. There wasn't as many customers that did do it, but we would still do it some.
You mentioned some about other stores. Were there other stores like yours in the Burlington area, back, say, in 1930?
There were a couple of smaller stores out here at Glen Raven. Then the stores in Burlington, they were similar, they operated similar to that.
Would it be such that people would think of having a neighborhood store?
Yes, that's what they mainly were, in those days. There wasn't as much transportation, easy transportation back in those days as there is now. There were stores located around Burlington in all communities, you might say.
Can you think of the names of any of those other stores that would have been in business, say, in 1930?
Yes, down on the other end of Burlington was
The Cash Store was owned by people in the community. They got together and formed an organization and put up money, buying stock in the store. Then they put it in operation. It was a place they bought their food stuff.
Would there be just one Cash Store, or would there be several?
They just had one by that name. And then also in East Burlington was Mr. Layton, he operated a store known as "Layton's Store." Then uptown there was Patterson's grocery and Bryan's grocery, uptown. Then coming to West Burlington there was Walton's Store and there was Swim's Store, all the same type we described as my father's store operated out here. In West Burlington was also Simpson's Store, down on Hatch Street. That was another one that I recall. Then on Logan Street, down there was Whitley's Store, still another one. Every community had, there was a store in every community.
Are there any of those stores left besides yours here?
No, I don't recall any of them. The buildings are still there, some of
them. In the old Swim's building are framing pictures. The Walton
building has been torn away and Asher McAdam's drug store is located
where it used to be. Some kind of an operation where Simpson's used to
be on Hatch St. The Whitley Building on Logan St. is gone. Probably
missed one on Logan Street too. It was Whittimore's. There was a store
there,
The people who owned all of these stores, would they have a lot to do with each other? Would they have any get-togethers or meetings or organizational activities?
No, I don't think they had any get-together at all. That didn't come until years later when they thought they needed to get together and talk about it. It was competition like dog eat dog back in those days. You did all you could. While you respected the other man and his operation, you didn't do anything to help him.
What about the different communities? If you looked say, at west Burlington or east Burlington, what would be the difference between the communities. In general terms, how would you describe these different parts of the Burlington area? What were they like, who lived there?
There wasn't any particular difference, because in east Burlington there were cotton mills and in west Burlington there were cotton mills. In the main, the larger number of inhabitants worked in the mills. So they would be similar.
Were there any sense of different classes of people, a part of town where the wealthier people lived, or the poorer people lived?
Sure, like always the wealthier people, they usually traded at the uptown
stores. They probably operated a
When did these small neighborhood stores begin to change?
When the supermarkets started coming in is when they began to change. Around here I guess it was in the early forties that supermarkets started spreading out.
Which were the first ones, the first supermarkets?
I believe the first one in Burlington I recall was the A&P. Back
in the earlier days I can remember when Bryan's store was the largest
store and did more business than the A&P in Burlington. And the
Cash Store down in east Burlington, they did more business when they
were in their prime. They did more business than the A&P. And
there was another chain store known as Pender's in Burlington early.
There were local stores larger than those two until we came into the
time of the supermarkets. Then when they started supermarkets, first
You say that began in the early forties. There weren't any supermarkets that you remembered before, say, 1940?
Of course, this is just my memory, but I don't remember exactly.
The A&P would have begun right after World War II, or right before World War II?
It was probably about that time.
There was something called the "Dixie Home Stores." Do you remember those?
I remember the name. They never came to Burlington and Alamance county. But the Winn-Dixie hasn't been here so long.
What about this mill that's right across the street from you, the hosiery mill, when was it built?
About forty, early forties, I would say.
Did people who worked over there ever come in here to get things for lunch?
Well, they used to a whole lot more than they do now. They try to keep
them from coming in, they try to keep them on the job. You noticed the
man in here a few minutes ago who bought a carton of ale, six bottles I
believe, he works over there. They come over and buy some ale and
things. They first started that mill, though…they didn't have any drink
machines, no
When would that have been you all stopped, how long ago?
I would say in the fifties, somewhere in the fifties.
Was it always the Holt Hosiery Mill?
Yes, it's always been the hosiery mill.
You think it probably started around 1940.
Now, it's probably in the early forties. Now I say that for this reason—the war, World War II was going on when that building was built. They had trouble getting help to lay the brick. You see that white streak yonder? Getting some help that wasn't too proficient probably. And they got some out out line. Mr. Holt came along and had them pull those out and line them up. Well, the mortar never matched, you see.
What was there before the mill?
Nothing, just a field. Back when I was just a boy and my daddy was operating this store, we got permission and we planted it in corn, roasting ear corn. Somebody come in the store and want a dozen ear of corn, we went out there and pulled it and brought it in and sold it to them.
That's pretty fresh corn.
Yeah, as time went on I bought the lot, the front lot. I had the opportunity to buy it. It was tied up for a long time. I bought it and one day Mr. Brown of the real estate company came up to me and wanted to buy the lot back of it also. He told me this, that if I bought the lot back of it, he had a sale for it, the whole works, to Mr. Holt. And it would show me a nice profit. So I went ahead and bought it and sold the lot to Mr. Holt.
Which Holt was that?
That was Mr. Ralph Holt. He's dead now. Ralph, Jr. operates that. Of course, more than Mr. Ralph was into it. He didn't do it by himself. He had some brother-in-laws, a couple of Allen boys, Joe and, never can think of the bame, anyway, Joe and his brother Allen. Also, Jim Holt: James Alexander Holt. They're the ones I know went in together and started it.
Now going back to your store a bit. In this time before, the twenties and thirties, who would primarily be your customers? What groups of people would they be, mostly mill workers or mostly farmers who would come into town?
The majority of them were mill workers. There were a lot of houses over in the mill village there. Most of them traded over here. Some of them lived along the road here, some of them that owned their own homes and so forth. And then we had several farmers too. But I'd say the majority were mill workers.
Let's look at this page here that your father wrote down in about 1930 or so that has two accounts, I guess. Would all of this have been bought at one time? You think the person would have come in and bought all of this at once?
I think so.
If we go through and explain each one. Now the potatoes, they would be sweet potatoes?
Not likely, more than likely ash potatoes. Now we have the habit of writing sweet potatoes, we put "SW" potatoes. Abbreviated.
So how many potatoes would you get for fifty cents.
I would think it would be a peck, which would be about twelve pounds. Back in those days we measured things, we had a peck measure. I don't known if you've ever seen one of those or not—a peck on one side, a gallon on the other. Wooden container. We still have got that old measuring thing. It's down at the house. I imagine that would be about twelve pounds, would what a peck would measure.
Now all of these things, like potatoes and onions, you would have bought them from a grocery wholesaler?
Uh-huh.
Then we have two pounds of lard. Would there be
In those days it was probably pure lard.
Would it be dipped out of something?
Yes, dipped out of a tub probably. A wooden tub, about forty-eight or fifty pounds. In addition to that we used to get preserves in about a ten pound wooden bucket. We used to dip those out. And peanut butter the same way. We dip them out and sell it.
And they came in wooden buckets?
Wooden pails.
Coffee, would that be coffee beans or would it be ground up?
We didn't have any grinders in those days. I think there was not much bean coffee sold as I can remember. Back when I was a little boy they bought some bean coffee. Prior to my time, everybody using coffee had their own little coffee mill. The kind the woman put between her legs, held between her legs and ground her own coffee.
You mentioned a particular brand of coffee. What was it?
Pilot Knob.
Where did that come from?
I'm not sure. The brand of coffee I remember mostly, though, is Arbuckle. Ever hear of Arbuckle coffee. They were the two most popular ones, and I believe they sold more Arbuckle than Pilot Knob.
Who would bring the coffee to you and sell it to you?
There were wholesale groceries in Burlington.
It would be the same people who that'd be bringing the potatoes?
No, the produce house was different. They had others. Also, Greensboro and Richmond. I know my father got his Pilot Knob coffee out of Richmond. Used to buy groceries out of Richmond, too. I don't remember the name of the wholesale place. But they would ship it here by railway freight. We had a freight depot up here. We would order stuff and they would ship it in here by freight. I think you could get it in from Richmond sometimes cheaper than you could buy it locally.
Then going on down here to the meat. That's two dollars? Can you tell what that is?
No, that's two pounds. He doesn't have a price on it. But that was our method for writing it. You see, if we got a pound of coffee we wrote a pound of coffee. If he wanted to order two pounds of meat, we had to cut that piece of fat back. We wasn't sure it would be exactly two pounds, and so we put the two on to the right like that. Then the price would be on out there. You didn't put the price on after you cut it.
You got your produce from one wholesaler, your coffee from another. Now what about your meat?
It would have come, prior to the time Swift and Co. opened up in Burlington, it would have been handled by the wholesale grocer. He would handle the fat back.
The same person you would be buying your produce from?
No, from the other man.
The people in Richmond, for instance, that you'd get your coffee from. It would come in on the freight train, too?
Uh-huh. Or he could buy it locally here from a wholesale grocer. He would get it from one of the meat packers. They would have it shipped in. You can still buy it like that too. You can still buy fat back meat that way. Thomas Howard has a wholesale grocery here in Burlington now, and they handle fat back meat.
Has he been a person who goes way back?
Oh, yeah, they go way back?
Thomas Howard?
Thomas and Howard Company.
They might be somebody I might talk to about this period of time?
Nobody locally has been here a long time.
How about any of those other grocery store owners you mentioned, are any of them still around to talk to?
Yeah. I don't even believe I mentioned it. But there used to be a store in Burlington, back before my day. I've heard my father talk about it: Isley Brother's General Store. Coleman Isley, who is probably a year or two older than I am, he could tell you some things. He and his brother operating a food store in Graham, Isley's. And if you could get to talk to Coleman, he could tell you. He has a younger brother, right much younger, who is really the operator of it now, I think.
Is he still living in Graham?
He's still there. They're still operating the store in Graham. On Court Square there.
One more question while we're talking about these grocers. People in the black community, would they have their own stores which would be run by black grocers?
No, there wasn't any black operators back in those days.
Were there any black operated restaurants?
Not going too far back, I would say yes. Down on Worth Street in Burlington, a section known as "Blackbottom"—they they had operations down in there that'd probably go back to the thirties.
Let's go back to this list here. The next thing was a quart of pinto beans.
That was measured in a tin quart container that held a quart, which would be close to a pound and a half.
People told me that you didn't grow pinto beans around here, that they were brought in from somewhere else.
Usually come in from Colorado. Still do, the majority of them.
Would these come in big sacks?
Yes, hundred pound bags, and you'd weigh them out.
What about these peas, what kind of peas would those be?
They would be dried black eyed peas.
And where would they have come from?
Well, they would have come from off somewhere. Might have come from Alabama.
And then we have soap, is that soap?
Yes, that's P and G soap, one cake for five cents.
P and G?
Proctor and Gamble.
And then the next thing is salt.
Yes, a package of salt for five cents.
And then a package of bacon.
That would have probably been a pound of bacon for forty cents.
Then sausage.
A pound of sausage for thirty cents.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
Let me ask you about the bacon and the sausage. Would that have been prepackaged? You mentioned the Swift Company. It says here "package"—would that mean that you all sliced it off?
No, it was probably a package that probably Swift's put up. And the sausage could have either been that or it could have been some country sausage, some that we made here at the store.
You all used to make sausage here?
Yes. We'd buy some pork trimmings and make sausage.
Is that something you did yourself?
Yes, I've done it.
Do you still do some of that?
No, I'm not doing any now. And we used to dress chickens here. Dress our own fryers, hens. But rules and regulations came along again, the inspector came out and said you had to have running water, certain kinds of containers, and a concrete floor, thus and so if you're going to dress chicken. We didn't have all of that and we didn't go into that, so we discontinued dressing our chickens.
When did you first begin to run into these regulations on how you processed your food?
I would say they stopped us from dressing chickens in the forties.
That may have been the first thing they began to deal with you on?
Yes. The early inspectors weren't too strict. They let you get by with some things they got tighter on. We felt like we could keep our chicken dressing just as sanitary as if we had a certain kind of container to put them in, and as if we had a concrete floor. But, the inspectors of course didn't agree with that. We were careful with our work and tried to keep it…
Do you remember any inspectors in the 1930's. Would there have been anyone coming around to inspect that early?
Yes, I think so.
Would they have been working for the health department.
Yes.
The state health department or the county?
I think it was the state. The mayor of Burlington was Mr. Earl Horner, and he had a brother named Tom Horner. And Tom was the first inspector I remember. Wait a minute, I'm wrong there. Tom was not an inspector, he was a tax man. I can't think of the name of the inspector now. The inspector would come out and ask you a few questions. If you answered them to his satisfaction, he didn't pay much attention to what you were doing. The early ones.
Let's go back and finish this list. Now, under sausage, what is that word? One pound of…
Weenies. That would have been loose weenies, I don't think we had packaged weenies back in those days. And the sausage was probably loose, too. I would weigh up a pound of weenies, and they were twenty five cents a pound.
And that's "Mule" tobacco?
Mule tobacco, yes. It was one of the popular brands back in those days.
It was a kind of chew?
Yes, it was a chew. And that was a ten cent cut.
And you wouldn't cut it yourself?
Yes, usually we did. They came in an eight or ten pound box of tobacco packed tight together. No cellophane back in those days. A ten cent cut was probably half of a plug.
The next one we've got is a quart of white beans.
That was probably what we'd call great northerns now.
And then again pinto beans, lard. Now under the lard, what is that?
Two Chesterfield cigarettes. Thirty cents.
And then what do you have?
Ladies Choice snuff, ten cents.
That would have been one of the old brands I guess.
Yes.
And then tomatoes.
A can of tomatoes. A can of kraut.
A pound of steak.
Yes.
Then sausage, then that last thing is kerosene.
A gallon of kerosene, yes, that's right.
You had some comments about the differences between the food preferences, or meat preferences, black and white customers and maybe how changed.
Let's see, the black customers would choose the cheaper cuts of meat. Pig feet used to sell cheap. So would neck bones. And end cuts of ham would be cheaper. They would choose that because they didn't have a whole lot of money to spend on the other things. But as time went on, as they developed and began to make more money, while they bought some of the better cuts of meat, they still liked the things that they used to eat—they still liked the pig feet, the neck bones, the chitterlings. They developed a taste for them and they still buy them. Although they're not as cheap as they used to be, they still prefer them. Does that about get it?
Another kind of thing similar to that would be if
In buying a lunch they would buy bologna, cheese, and canned pork and beans. Potted meat. Vienna sausage. Peanut butter, crackers, and bread. And probably a cookie.
Things like potted meat and vienna sausage—they've been made as long as you can remember?
Yes, and sardines, I left out sardines. As long as I can remember those things have been popular. Speaking of pig feet, pickled pig feet was quite popular. I remember when I was just a youngster I would hang around here on Saturday night. My father would sell, to the people who would come in—they had been off celebrating a little bit—they would come in and want pig feet and crackers. I'd smell those pickled pig feet and I'd think they were the best thing I'd ever smelled. Sometimes he'd give me a broken piece of pig feet and a cracker, and I ate it. And I still like them. I like a pickled pig feet.
TAPE 2, SIDE B: January 30, 1979.
Well, the workers in the mill, on weekdays, on working days, would eat
dried beans which they would cook with a piece of fat back meat, and
these would be: pinto beans, pink beans, white beans, black eyed peas
would be the main ones. And of course, they'd eat potatoes—Irish
potatoes and sweet potatoes—and onions along with these. Then came the
weekend—back in those days the weekend meant Saturday noon to Monday
morning.
Back in the late twenties, when we first came out here, when lunch time came the cotton mill would shut down for about half an hour and let the people go home and eat lunch. They would have some beans and corn bread probably ready. They would go home and eat and then come back to the mill in a half an hour and go back to work. The mill owners didn't seem to think they had to keep those machines running every minute of every day back in those days.
In other words, they would actually shut down the whole mill.
Yes, they would shut it down.
And they would do that five days a week and then on Saturday they would be through.
Yes, on Saturday they'd be off at lunch.
When did that change, when did they quit doing that?
I don't remember exactly when it was. They seemed to put more pressure on the help as time went on, they wanted them to work all the time. Then some of them…children would bring lunch to their parents in the mill. They got where they would sell lunches to them in the mill. They had something they called a "dope cart", carried one around that carried ale and sandwiches and things like that. They would sell them something and let them eat. The differences there probably came about because of the time. Back in the early days they worked ten hours a day in the mill. Then they changed to eight hours. They'd maybe allow their help a fifteen minute break to eat a sandwich, something like that at noontime. It kind of evolved, I don't know exactly what time when it was that it changed.
Would you say it was a general practice that a lot of mills would close at lunch for thirty minutes, close everything down, or was this unusual here?
I couldn't quite say. I remember the mill here did it, and probably some of them other mills did it also. Then there were some that felt like they were more modern and had to keep it working all the time.
What was the name of this particular mill?
This was Glen Raven Cotton Mill. In the late twenties when we first came
out here, the average worker in Glen Raven Cotton Mill would make less
than eleven dollars a week.
Back in the earlier days there probably was more class distinction among
people than there is today because a man doing ordinary work in a cotton
mill, making less than eleven dollars a week—he had probably enough to
pay rent, buy him a little something to eat, a few clothes, and that was
about all. Of course, he was probably looked down on somewhat. He didn't
associate socially with the boss men or the owners of the mill, who were
in a different class. Over the years that has been eliminated a whole
lot because of the equalization of wages. People working in the mills
now make
Probably one of the reasons change came about in our operation… The supermarkets opened up and they sold for cash and they advertised some items cheaper than we could sell them, or cheaper than we could buy them for sometimes. Things they call "loss leaders" that they would entice our customers on. It got to be, the development started that our customers would buy these loss leaders, then would buy some other things too as time went on. Then they would come back to us and have a little stuff charged. Of course, we tried to pick out the customers that were good pay. Those we were aquainted with and those we knew. If there was sickness in the family, hardship, somebody lose a job and had to be out of work for a while, we would extend him credit a little longer. Our policy was, to our customers, that your payday is my payday. We carried some accounts for a week, some for two weeks, and some for even a month. Just making our customers' payday our payday. As long as they would cooperate we would go along with that. But when they started going to the supermarket too much and just giving us the left-over, it got where we couldn't operate and make expenses. So we decided to phase it out. And that's what we've been doing now.
I can remember back in twenty-seven and twenty-eight—I was a young man
then—going uptown and doing my courting. I'd
The Alamance Hotel, then, would be the place if you came to town on business, and you were staying in the hotel, where you would eat?
Yes, you would stay there and eat. Now there were earlier hotels in
Burlington before then. There was the Ward
When both the husband and wife worked in the cotton mill, quite often they would hire a colored women to come in and probably cook lunch, and clean up the house and cook supper. She probably wouldn't work over five or six hours a day. Maybe sometimes and sometimes longer. They were economically low ebb. And these colored folks would work for five or six dollars a week. Where husband and wife both worked in the mill, they could readily pay that and have a couple of hot meals a day prepared by someone else.
So you say that would be pretty common.
Yes, that was quite common.
Which meals would they most likely have prepared?
It would be lunch and supper. She might get supper ready and be going home by the time the folks came in, or maybe before.
END OF INTERVIEW