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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
H-0085-2, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill”
This is the second interview in a two-part series with Louise Riggsbee Jones about her life in Bynum, North Carolina. Born in 1897, Jones lived her entire life in Bynum, North Carolina. Here she focuses on life and work in that working community. Jones describes again the importance of church, discussing in detail the role of religious revivals in her community during the early twentieth century. In addition, she describes her own courtship and marriage at the age of 25. Like many of her peers, Jones was pregnant and had a baby within her first year of marriage, which she attributes in part to the absence of birth control and sexual education. Before the birth of her first child, Jones had worked as a winder in the Bynum cotton mill and she returned to that post during the Great Depression in order to help the family make ends meet. Jones describes working as a winder in the mill, focusing on such issues as work conditions, gender, balancing work and family, relationships between workers, and workers' benefits (specifically Social Security).
Louise Jones describes life and work in Bynum, North Carolina, a cotton mill town, during the first half of the twentieth century. Jones discusses the role of religion, marriage, and family in her life and in the community. In addition, she describes working as a winder in the cotton mill, focusing on such issues as work conditions, gender, balancing work and family, relationships between workers, and workers' benefits.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
But when he got old enough to work, he came to work in the mill
What was her name?
Martha White now. She was Martha [Laughter]
When young people met each other and started seeing each other, did anyone like your parents or your mother or your husband's parents or the minister set rules about how often you could see each other?
No. On most every weekend, if there were ballgames. They had a right good baseball team here then, and they had one at Pittsboro, and he and I and his sister would go to the ballgames a lot when we weren't working.
But no one said, "You're seeing too much of this young
guy" or anything like that. [Laughter]
No, there wasn't anything like that. I was old enough, I reckon my mother thought, to behave myself, and I didn't start dating too young, and I was twenty-five when I married. And so I was old enough to know a little something about what marriage meant.
Did people tend to marry in their mid-twenties, or did a lot of women marry earlier?
I just don't remember too much about it; I didn't pay attention. Mostly
being about twenty or twenty-one, something like that. The summer that
we married, there was two or three couples married. Mrs. Louise Durham
over yonder that lives with Miss Flossie,
Did people frown on that or say that they shouldn't get married that young or they should wait or something like that?
They didn't have any trouble. I guess the families would rather they would wait a little longer, but they got along all right, most of them did, I think, and had good lives.
Did people have to ask someone if they could get married? Was it traditional to ask your parents if you could get married?
Not altogether, I don't think. My husband talked it over with my mother. I think he did it through respect. I wanted him to. And we didn't have a big wedding. I had a sister living in Mebane, and we went up there on weekends some just on Sundays. But my mother and I were the only ones at home then; I was the only one living at home with her. and I told him I wanted him to tell her. And we decided we'd go up there. So we stopped at Hillsborough and got married in Hillsborough; we didn't have a church wedding. We just stopped and went on and spent the night with my sister up there, and my mother was there, too. And it was all right with all the family. I never did think that I'd want a big wedding if I could have had it. Of course, we didn't make enough to spend much on anything like that then.
Do you remember any of your friends having a big wedding?
Not like they have now, but some of them were married in church. But I
never did like to go to a wedding. I don't know; it was
[Laughter]
I don't know why, but I've heard several people speak that way about it. Said it was sad. It was more like a funeral to them than anything else. Now we've had three weddings out here at our church in the last three months, I'll say. Two of my great-nieces: one got married in July or the first of August, and then another one got married about three weeks ago. And then last Friday maybe was the week Mrs. Cooper's girl got married down here in the church, so there's been three of our young people here that had church weddings. They had mighty pretty weddings, they said. I didn't go to them, because I just can't wear shoes and clothes like I used to now, and I haven't been going to church. But I always went to church all of my life. I can't even remember when my mother started carrying me to church.
But people have church weddings more now than they did when you were coming up? Was it real unusual for someone to get married in the church?
I don't remember as it was, but they didn't have as much show or whatever you would say as they do now. It was mostly just a quiet wedding. If they wanted to go be married in the church, maybe a few friends and like that.
Did some people feel real strongly about getting the minister to marry them instead of the judge or whatever?
I guess some people did. You know, they have different opinions like
that, but I don't know. Of course, I was always used to
You got married in Hillsborough at the Court House?
No, it wasn't in the Court House. I don't remember exactly who ran the place there. It was right on the street where we stopped. I forgot. But it wasn't a big business place. We just went in there, and there were two men in there. They were witnesses for us. And my mother sat out in the car while we went in there and got married.
How did she react to your getting married? You were her last child. Was she sad?
She didn't say anything against it, because she thought my husband was a
good sort of a young man, and he had good parents, good brothers and
sisters. But of course when she found it out, she cried about it. That's
natural that she would, because I was the only one there with her. But
she stayed on with us as long as she lived. And then when Hettie was
born. . . . I got pregnant just right after we were married, and she was
born in due time. Well, no, the doctor said she was about two or three
weeks early. But when she was about three months old, my mother had a
light stroke. And we had been back to my sister's at Mebane that
weekend, and it had come on her partly while we were up there. And I had
a sister living right out from Carrboro—they ran a milk
dairy—and she got worse after we came on
What was your mother's sister's name, who lived right over here?
Martha Neill.
And what was her husband's name?
Charlie Neill.
How long was he superintendent of the mill, for a long time?
No, not too long. There was one man superintendent, Miss [laughter]
[laughter]
And my uncle was superintendent during that time. It was just a few years; I don't remember exactly how many years it was.
But then Mr. Edgar Moore got his job back when he came back?
Yes, he got his job back.
I had one other question about when young people started dating in Bynum. Did groups of young people go out together for picnics and outings and ballgames, or did . . .
They just had got to having cars so they could go along not too long after I started dating. Used to we didn't get to go anywhere. But before then the Old Bridge was down here. I had a picture.
You showed us the picture.
And we called [it] "going over the river," walking over the river. And there was a spring over there that a family used there on the hill; it was mighty good water. Go to the spring, and then we'd sit around, just groups together, and talk. Even if you were not dating, just the young girls. Now I did, before I started dating much, go. And I had an aunt who lived with us then—her husband had died—and she'd go with us some. And Miss Flossie Durham had a sister that hadn't been married. She was a grown, settled woman, you know. She would go with us. Just to be together, you know, and talk, and we'd walk out together and all.
I was wondering when you said that you got pregnant right
Yes. They didn't do anything to keep from getting pregnant.
There was nothing
Not like they do now.
Do you remember anyone telling you there was any way you could keep from getting pregnant?
No, nobody told me nothing like that.
When people had children, who did they name them for usually?
Sometimes from the family and sometimes from names that they. . . . My daughter Hettie's named for her grandmother; that's my husband's mother right up there. And everyone says she looks so much like her. She favors his mother, and the people that didn't know her say, "Well, you're like your daddy." But the people that knew his mother say she's just like Mrs. Jones. And she died before we were married, before I started going with him very much. Of course I knew him, but I hadn't been with him. He told me after we started going together, he says, "Louise, you know, Mama said to me one time before I started going with you, she asked me why I didn't go with you." That made me feel good, because I felt like she liked me, and she felt like that I was good enough for him. And it made me feel real good when he told me that. I didn't go with too many boys; I didn't care about it. Of course, when I got older, then I kind of settled on one. I just had two or three friends before then. I didn't go with them very much.
You said that women didn't have any kind of way to keep from having
babies. Did they try, though, not to have too many close
Well, if they did, I don't know it. I don't remember it if they did.
They just didn't use any kind of birth control.
Of course, that came on in later years, I think, because when I was growing up they just had them naturally as they. . . .
Did women tend to have a lot of children when you were growing up? Do you remember what was considered average for a woman to be pregnant?
I wouldn't know the average, but a lot of them had four and five children and sometimes more than that. My mother had eight children, but there were three who died when they were babies.
Did most women your mother's age have babies who had died? She wasn't unusual in that she had three babies die, was she?
No. Her oldest baby died, and I think I told you about that. He had what they called the membrous croup, and there was nothing much that you could do for that then. And I think she had two more, and then a little girl. She wasn't an infant; she was maybe two years old or something like that. She could talk just a little bit; I remember hearing her say that.
What did she die of?
I just don't remember. And she had another little girl that died. And I don't remember what they died with.
Did the women your age tend to have that many children? You had three
children. What about the other women who were your age?
Some of them had more than others. I just don't remember too much. There were some women that had two and three, and some would have four and five. My mother was kind of young; I don't remember how old she was. My father had been married, and his wife died. I had a half-sister, and her mother died when she was about three months old. And she was about three years old when my father and mother married, but he was older than my mother. But we thought as much of our half-sister as if she was our whole sister. And she loved my mother, and my mother did her, just the same as she did the rest of us.
When you were growing up and thinking about having children or thinking about having a family, and even when you were first married, was there ever any feeling that you wanted to have a certain number of children?
No, I didn't.
I mean right now, people all say they want to have two children [laughter]
No, I never did think that.
But you don't remember thinking there was an ideal-sized family or anything like that?
No, I don't. I was just used to them. I told you my mother went a lot of
times when women had their babies, because they had them at home. The
doctor would come, and they would send for her; she would go a lot and
be with them and help them. And then she would go back and tend to the
babies, dress them for a few days. And they wore bands
When Hettie was born and your other children were born, did you ever think or worry about being able to support children? I don't know the year that Hettie was born; was it during the Depression?
We were married in 1923. She was born in 1924, of course, the next year. But the Depression. . . . Then my next child was born in 1928, and he wasn't a healthy child. He was sick so much. And he died when he was about twenty months old. And then my youngest boy was born in 1931.
What is his name?
Claiborne Young Jones.
Who is he named for?
I just liked the name "Claiborne." There was a man at Raleigh, Claiborne Mangum. He used to sing on the radio, and I liked to hear him so much, and I liked the name. And the "Young" was for his Grandfather Jones. His grandfather was named Young Austin Jones, or Austin Young; I don't know which way he called it. But my boy baby that died was named for my father and his father. My husband's named Paul, and my father's name was Elbert, and so I named him Paul Elbert, and we called him Paul Elbert. Then after he died and my other baby was born, I felt like I wanted to name him for my husband's father. And I just put the "Young" to it, so I named him Claiborne Young.
To get some idea of the number of women, and young men, too, in Bynum who married, did most people marry or did a fair number of people remain single?
I don't remember too much about that.
When you were talking about the young women you were with before you married and how they were grown and they were not married and they were all friends, did most of those end up marrying eventually?
The ones that were my friends all got married.
And all of Paul's friends, did they tend to get married and set up families?
Yes, most of them.
So it was sort of unusual if a young woman didn't marry.
Yes.
Was it also unusual for someone to get divorced or to separate after they married?
It was more unusual then than it is now.
Do you remember anyone ever getting divorced who was your age or your mother's age?
No, I just don't remember when I first started hearing that, about who it was. But I know they lived together more than they do now a whole lot.
Was it something that people would have been afraid to even think about? Was it just something people didn't think about doing? Was there an idea that it was wrong to get a divorce, or bad?
I don't know. I never did hear much about it then. When I
But people would separate if they didn't get along?
Sometimes they would. Maybe the woman would go back with her family, and he'd go back with his. But I don't even remember many cases like that. I couldn't mention one that I did remember, but I can remember that that did happen sometimes.
Would it usually happen when they were first married and before they had children, or would sometimes a woman go back with her children?
I just don't know. I don't remember about that.
I don't mean to dwell on sex and marriage [laughter]
I guess they did, but I don't remember much about it. But I'll tell you, we didn't know sex. They didn't teach it to us like they do now. And it was more of a sacred thing with us when we were growing up, and something that we shouldn't talk out. Now young people don't think too much about talking sex to one another; you know how they are now. And I sometimes think that they know just a little bit too much, that they don't have the respect for it that they ought to, like we always did.
So when you were growing up, you were sort of taught, or not even taught, that sex was something that was a part of marriage.
Yes. Not too young. Just as I got a little older, I would learn such as
that. [laughter]
[laughter]
And it would scare me to death. [laughter]
[laughter]
We'd always have a Christmas tree, carry gifts, the people, one for
another and put them on the Christmas tree. And they'd have a Christmas
program. The children would have little pieces to sing and sing songs,
and the older people would sing Christmas songs. And then
[laughter]
I told you about my doll, and I have that doll now. And I was afraid to look, but I can see it right now hanging up in the tree. But I was so afraid of Santa Claus, I wouldn't sit up and look at my doll too much. I would sit in my mother's lap when I was afraid of Santa Claus.
Did people take their presents, like if your mother gave you a present she would put your name on it and take it to the church and put it on the tree?
Yes. All my sisters, brothers, or aunts, cousins, different ones, and friends, if they wanted to give you something they'd carry it and put it on the Christmas tree.
Did people ever have trees or decorations in their own houses?
Not then like they have in the . . .
Every home would have one big Christmas tree?
Yes, we'd all have a tree at the church.
I was wondering if there were any other times during the year when there
were celebrations like that or parties like that. What
We had Easter programs. They'd have a service at church with the children
and the older people taking part in the program. [Interruption]
They would have just the recitations on the Easter service, and they'd
sing the Easter songs more and something like that. And there was a
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
When did they start having the homecomings?
I don't know. It was just a few years ago that I remember. When I was a
child, they would go to another church. We had so many churches on the
circuit, this church and Ebenezer Church down in the country—I
don't know how far, ten or twelve miles, maybe more than that—
and Mount Pleasant up yonder and Mann's Chapel and Cedar Grove. We'd
have one preacher. He lived here; the parsonage was here. And he would
have all these churches to preach, and we didn't have but one Sunday,
one sermon. As far back as I remember, we had one on third Sundays. And
then it got so in later years we would have one sermon one Sunday night
during the month. But he would have to go each Sunday to these churches.
Cedar Grove and Mann's Chapel are not too far apart up yonder. The best
I remember, I think maybe he'd go from one church to the other, because
I think I counted about five churches. There's usually four Sundays.
That would just give him a church each Sunday. And they had to go in the
horse and buggy then; they didn't have cars. You know, it would take him
all day to go and have his service and get back home. And sometimes the
different churches would gather at one church for a song festival to
carry dinner and have a dinner on the grounds. And our church would go
on picnics sometimes. I know
Everyone from the church would go, carry dinner and . . .
All that wanted to that belonged to the Sunday school. We called them the Sunday school picnics. And we'd have to get a way from here to Pittsboro and get on the train and go on the train to Raleigh. Now that's why we didn't have much time to take up for the picnic, and we'd go to Durham once in a while to the park up there and have a picnic. That was after I got older; I remember that.
Would that be at any particular time of the year, like in the summertime?
Yes, they would always be in the summertime when we'd have the picnics, when we could be outside.
What about in the fall when the farmers would be harvesting their crops? Would they ever come into town and either sell their stuff or have some kind of celebration when they brought stuff in?
There weren't as many stores here; there wasn't but one store for a long time here. And then there were two. And the first store that I ever remember was down below this house. They called it the company store. I think the company that owned the mill ran the store, because they called it the company store. And then Mr. Jim Atwater and Mr. Rufus Lambeth bought it out, and it was Atwater and Lambeth's store. And they built one right out here about where our road comes up to the house. A Mr. Joe Mann built that and ran the store there for a few years, but they tore it down after so many years. And then Mr. Durham and Guilford were the ones who put in the stores.
But you don't remember anything about farmers coming in in the fall into town or anything like that?
No, I don't.
What about when people butchered their hogs? Would you have an extra good meal or something after you'd butchered the hogs?
Nearly all of the people here then would have a hog or two for themselves. And we had the colored people, which they call blacks now—I was always taught to call them colored people—but they would help if the husband. . . . Of course, my father was dead, but my mother would have her a hog, and there was an old colored man, Uncle Sam Clark, and his wife. They were just the best kind of people, and he would look after hers every time, just as much so as if it had been his own. She could depend on Uncle Sam to look after killing her hogs, and his wife, Aunt Molly, would come and help her cook the lard and make the sausage. And that's along then, but the families don't raise as many hogs now as they used to. They can buy too much at the store.
What did Uncle Sam Clark do for a living?
He was a farmer.
Just out from Bynum?
Yes. He was a renter.
What about Election Day? Do you remember that as being a big event? Where did people go to vote?
I don't remember much about that. Since the women got the vote, I voted some. I haven't voted every time.
Do you remember when women got the vote?
No, I don't remember the year. [laughter]
I mean were you excited about it or anything?
Not too much. I just kind of depend on my husband. I don't know politics.
[laughter]
[laughter]
I told him here the other night, listening on the radio, you know, I says, "Well, all we know is one says, ‘I'll do this,’ and the other'll do that, and then when they get in office they do just what they want to do."
[laughter]
Now that's the way it is.
Is your husband interested in politics? Has he always been interested?
He votes most of the time, but he's not interested too much. He tries to learn what he can about the different ones that run. And sometimes, since my son got grown, there's somebody that he wants. He'll say, "Well, Mama, you and Daddy vote for such-and-such a one." The last time I voted I went down to the Ruritan building, and my son went in with me and he marked my ballot. I've been so that I couldn't see good now for a long time, and I just depend on him to do things like that for me. But I haven't voted in a right good little bit.
Did people run for office from Bynum? Do you remember anyone ever campaigning actively in Bynum? When you were little, do you remember candidates coming through here?
There were some from Pittsboro that would come here and make a talk. The
school building was up yonder then. I started to school down there, but
I was going to school up yonder. And I was a good-sized little girl. I
went up there one night to the speaking. There was a Democrat and a
Republican. I think Mr. Jim Griffin from Pittsboro and Mr. Fred Bynum .
Mr. Fred was the Republican, and Mr. Griffin was the Democrat. And they
both made a speech, one after the other. I went back home that night. My
mother didn't go. And I got back home and I said, "Ma, I tell
you one thing. When I get grown I'm going to be a Republican."
[laughter]
What did she say?
She didn't say. [laughter]
Did you know Mr. Fred Bynum from here or from Pittsboro?
I wasn't acquainted with him especially, but he lived at Pittsboro. I knew of him, and Mr. Griffin, too. I had been hearing about them right much, but I wasn't personally acquainted with them.
Did you become a Republican?
Yes, I'm Republican.
[laughter]
I'll tell you, if there's a Democrat, say, for the county office or
something like that that we like, we vote for the man that we like. But
we consider ourselves. . . . My husband is a Republican. Not because I
was; he just happened to be that. [laughter]
Did you ever support a Democrat? Did you ever support Franklin Roosevelt? Did you like him or not like him?
I don't remember whether I voted then or not.
Do you remember anything about the New Deal after the Depression? Were you excited about that?
Not too much. I'd had too hard a time during the Depression [laughter]
But you didn't think that the New Deal would help you out or anything like that?
I don't know. I just didn't think too much about it. Some people thought
it would, and some thought it wouldn't, and I just didn't know. But we
got through the Depression; God helped us through. He's been with us all
the time. I give God credit for being what I am and having the life that
I've had, and helping me all of my life. I have a lot of faith in God.
And I remember one prayer. When my son was in service he never was in
the fighting, but he was in. . . . Well, what was it? I forgot now. But
he would come home when he was in camp. He was in Georgia, and it came
along toward the last before he went overseas. He'd come home on
weekends with some boys. They'd get together—some lived at
Fayetteville—and he'd come with them, and some of the family
would meet him down there. And late Sunday evening
You said he came back one time for a revival.
Yes, we have a revival almost every year down here.
Did they do that when you were a little girl?
Yes.
They always had a revival.
They always had a revival once a year.
What was it like? Did people come from all around?
It was the people here. Some people in the community from the other
churches would come, after it got so they had ways to come and go back.
And people would repent and go in the church, young people, and the
older people too sometime. It would last about a week, at night, because
they always worked during the day here, and
Would they still have a revival when they worked a night shift? Would people get off for the revival?
They had one last year, and they had one here about a month ago. But they can't very well get off from their jobs. The ones that work on the morning shift can go, but the ones that go in at three o'clock and work till eleven, they can't very well get off to go.
The mill never gave people time off to go, even when you were younger?
It didn't run at night much when I worked. It did the last few years that I worked. After I was married I worked some at night when Hettie and Claiborne were small. But my husband would be at home—he worked on morning—and I didn't work the whole number of hours. I forgot who the man was over it then, but he would let some of us married women that wanted to work some work maybe four or five hours of that time and then come home. And sometimes we'd work the whole time out if they had more work to do and all.
Were revivals always important to you?
Oh, yes, I always enjoyed the revivals.
Did you originally join the church during one?
Yes. They would take the members in at the last service of the revival. Yes, I joined the church after the revival.
Do you remember how old you were, or do you remember it as a real important time?
I don't remember just how old I was, but I was old enough
I was wondering if there were any places in Bynum where people got together or met, other than the church. Were there any voluntary organizations, or was there a group of Masons or anything like that?
Not too much. Of course, they had the Missionary Societies, and they used to have what they called the Epworth League for the young people. My older sister always went. But they always had the meetings at the church.
Were there any organizations for men that you remember?
No, not unless it was just the class meetings or something like that from the Sunday school. And when we had a picnic, that was for the whole Sunday school, grown people, children, and all.
What is the Ruritan Club?
It's a men's club. Now I just don't know what. The Ruritan Building is
down yonder there, that cement building down yonder. And when the church
held suppers to sell, you know, now they do, and if people have things
at home they can give to have a sale, maybe good clothes or
something—a nice suit of clothes a man has, and maybe he's
outgrown it or something, and a piece of furniture if you decided you
can give them—they'll have a sale, too, to make money for the
church. Now they had one down here. Our pastor, did I tell you that
No.
He did. Dynamite. It was something since he's been in his work. I never
have known. He's been to see me, but he didn't tell me just exactly how
it happened. And he like to lost his eyesight. But he's been off; he's
going to get him a hand. And they say that he can lift as much as
thirty-five pounds with it when he gets it put on. And so that was going
to cost him I don't know, I heard $2,500 and I heard
$2,700, but it was right much. They had a supper here a few
weeks ago down there at the Ruritan building, the church. They have it
at the Ruritan building, things like that, and they had an auction sale,
too, to sell things. And different ones would give him a contribution if
they wanted to. And the Missionary Society, the classes, different ones,
has a bake sale to sell their pies and cakes and things at the store.
The members will bake them, and they'll carry them to the store, meet
there and sell them. I've gone a little too far. It was the revival.
They had the revival, and they took a special collection down there one
night, was going to give it all to him. And I think they got some over
four hundred dollars down there that night. And then they had the bake
sale and the auction sale. And I think they've made about nine hundred
dollars the last I heard, but I think he's got some more since then. And
they said he was so thrilled and so thankful that he cried. Said he
said, "Well, I don't feel I can ever leave the people here.
They've been so good to me." And he had one little girl and his
wife was expecting another one when they moved here. This is his first
year. And so she's had that now, and
My goodness.
And he was talking to some of them about how he'd pick up his little
girl. He'd just get her around and hold her with this one; he couldn't
hold her with the other arm. And he came over here one day, and my
grandson from Southport was here, and he's got two little girls. The
oldest one was just in a playpen. She could walk, but she stayed in a
playpen, and she was in there in Hettie's room. And he went on in there
and I went in there, and he had picked her up. He says, "Now
don't you all say anything to me about how I hold this baby. I hold mine
that way." [laughter]
You said it was at the Ruritan Club. Is that an old club, or is that a pretty new group in town?
I don't know. It hasn't been here too many years.
It wasn't here when you were young?
Oh, no.
Did your husband ever belong to it?
No, he doesn't go out to anything like that much. He just stays at home with me most of the time. But there's several men here that do belong to it. I don't know just what they do, but they help in things that they can. The Ruritan Club gave him five hundred dollars on his bill for his hand.
Was that a common thing when you were growing up? If someone
Since I went to work, they certainly have been good about
Would the J. M. Odell Company ever give money to anybody?
I don't know, but I think they did. I think they would always put something with it.
They'd contribute, too?
I think they would; I wouldn't say for sure. Because I always had a job I had to stay all the time. I ran a winder, and we got paid by the pound, what we got off. If we didn't stay at our work, we didn't make much.
So you couldn't circulate the. . . . [laughter]
No. And some of them that worked by the hour and didn't have to stay so close at their work would go around and take up the collections for them.
Just questions about Bynum in general. Was there ever
No. I don't think so. They'd go somewhere else and get their beer and whiskey.
Where would they go?
They have a liquor store in Pittsboro, and I think you can buy it up yonder at the county line.
What about when you were growing up or when you were a young woman? Do you remember people drinking?
They used to. They called it blockading. They'd make it in the country. People would make their own liquor and sell it secretly. It got so the law would go, and they called it stills where they made it, cooked the stuff and made the liquor. And the law would go and tear up the stills and pour out what they could find around there. So when they did that, they had to kind of do it on the sly, not publicize it.
Did people drink a good bit? Did people usually have something around to drink?
Some of them did, and a lot of them didn't. I think that's everywhere. But now and then there'd be some that would.
Would people ever get together and drink, or did people tend to just drink in their own houses?
My people didn't drink. But I reckon they were just. . . . But I was so
afraid of one. Ooo-ee. I told you what a timid, queer child I was. [laughter]
A man who just drank pretty much?
He'd just take it by spells. He'd drink and he'd stay drunk two or three weeks at a time. He worked down here at the mill. He was a good kindly man. He had a mighty nice wife, and she had two girls that were mighty nice girls, and a son. He drove the company wagon, they called it. They had two nice horses, big horses, and a wagon. They had to haul the yarn that they sold to Pittsboro, and it went off on a train. It was shipped to wherever it was going. Mr. Crutchfield drove the wagon, and he was big, he was tall; he wasn't so fat, but he was just a big man. And strong? I've seen him. . . . The well was right out yonder. We lived right across the street. And we had to draw our water up with a bucket. And he'd go there . . .
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
He didn't bother anybody. He stayed at home. He was quiet. But I was just afraid because I knew he was drinking. But he didn't want anybody to bother the company horses.
Would he just not work while he was drunk?
No, he couldn't work while he was drinking that much. But they just went on and put up with him. He was a good worker. And he was a nice man except just those spells that he'd take drinking, and he was a good neighbor.
But the company let him keep his job?
Yes, he kept his job with them. And they didn't find any fault with him in a way. They just kept him.
Would they do that with other people, or did you ever know of anyone who'd lose their job for drinking? Would the company sometimes fire you?
I imagine they would; I don't know. But they had to do right much right badly before they'd fire them. If they were on the job, it would be all right. And they wouldn't go on the job drinking much.
When you were growing up and when you were just married, was Bynum a peaceful place to live? Was there ever any violent crime, or did people carry guns, or was it pretty peaceful? Did you have to worry about things being stolen?
No, not too much. Of course, there were wrong things done; I think there have been everywhere. But it used to be a right good place to live. It was almost like one big family. The people all knew one another and were neighborly with one another most of the time. But of course, now and then there'll be a family that doesn't conduct themselves just right. Sometimes there would be one, but there weren't many of them, not when I was growing up.
Was there ever a murder or anything like that that you remember hearing about?
I don't remember if there was. No, I couldn't mention one. It's been so long.
I wanted to ask you some more things about your work in the mill
specifically. When you started to work, right after the mill burned down
and the new one was built in 1916 or 1917, when it started,
I got pregnant and I worked awhile, but I quit then. And I didn't work
anymore till after my mother died. She lived about three years after she
had her first stroke. She wasn't down, but she was threatened with a
stroke every little bit, and I stayed at home. The doctors told her not
to walk, not to get out. I stayed at home closer than she did, in a way.
I wouldn't leave her to even run down to the store. We had the outside
toilets, and ours was out from the house. And she'd walk up there. And
we had a mighty good neighbor woman that lived next to us out there that
she thought a lot of, a Miss Betty Thomas, and she'd stop at Miss
Betty's a lot of time of a morning when she'd come on back from the
toilet. Well, I would stay at home and just worry myself to death. I
didn't want her to know that I was worrying about her, was uneasy about
her, because I knew that would worry her. And so one day she stayed so
long, and I could just imagine, "Well, maybe she's had a stroke
and fell on the way or something," and wouldn't go out looking
for her; I didn't want her to know it. But I told her one day. She came
back; I said, "Mama, where have you been?" She said,
"I stopped in to see Miss Betty." I says,
"Well, please, hereafter, whenever you want to stop to see Miss
Betty, you tell me you're going to stop. I was uneasy about you, afraid
maybe you'd got sick or something." So after that when she'd
go, if she thought she was going to stop and see Miss Betty, she'd say,
"Well, Louise, I expect I'll go and see Miss Betty a few
minutes this morning," and that was the most that she got
out.
So when they were about six or seven you went back to work fulltime?
I had to wind. That's the only thing that I ever knew how to do in the
mill, was to wind. I'd get
So you went back regular after they went to school, then?
Yes, I worked after they were both going to school, the regular number of hours on the second shift. Paul was there at home with them at night. And then when Hettie finished high school, she went to work. She didn't want to go off to school anywhere. We wanted her to go, but she didn't want to go. And she went to work, so I quit. I didn't work any more then.
And then she stayed at home with you here when she started working?
Yes, she was at home.
Was that in the early forties when you quit working then, and she graduated?
They started the Social Security, I think, in 1938, and I worked about
five years after they started that. I know when I went over [laughter]
Do you remember when it was passed in 1938?
Yes, I remember it.
Do you remember how you felt about it then?
I didn't have much idea that we'd ever get any good. . . . We didn't
understand exactly what it was, how it would be. You don't, I don't
think, till you get older, about anything like that, when it first
starts. But I didn't think it would ever help us as much as it has. Now
I've heard them talking a lot on the radio. . . . Paul goes to bed so
early of a night. But I don't go to bed early, because my arthritis, I
get to hurting, and lying on one side I have to turn so often in the
bed. I sit up every night till Hettie comes. Sometimes I go to sleep
sitting in here and sleep maybe an hour. But I've heard them talking on
the WPTF "Open Line." People call in and talk to
Are you excited about that happening, about them fixing them up, or how do you feel about it?
[laughter] [laughter]
So you're just sort of waiting.
I'm just waiting. I said, "Paul, don't worry. Just stay here.
God's going to take care of us. I'm not uneasy about that. We'll have a
place to stay." And Claiborne, my son, told me, "Mama,
don't you and Daddy worry. You'll have a place. I'll fix you a place
You said that when you were working you worked by the pound?
Yes.
Did you have a quota or a certain number of pounds you were supposed to turn out a day?
Yes, in a way we did, but we could always make that. And if we made over that, we got extra pay for it.
So you tried to always make more than the . . .
Yes, we always tried to make every bit we could. They'd pay us so much a pound. And I don't even remember, but you made so many pounds and that paid for the wages that you were supposed to get. And then all we made over that, we got extra pay for it.
Did Paul also work by the pound?
He was a doffer; he doffed the spinning frames. And I don't remember whether they got paid by the frame or by the hour. I believe, though, that they got paid by the frame. Some would be on coarse work and some on fine work. The ones on coarse work would doff more often. They didn't have quite as many frames. I really don't remember whether he worked by the piece or . . .
But you worked by the pound.
Yes, I worked by the pound.
So you never finished your work. You never finished and rested or never finished your quota and helped someone else. You just kept working.
Just kept working on my own side. All I could make, I got
While you were working there, did they ever try to speed up the work? Did they ever try to have everyone work faster?
Sometimes, different numbers that way. They would speed it up; if it was on the fine work, maybe they'd speed it up a little bit. But they didn't try to over-speed it, not when I worked. They do more such as that now than they did when I worked, I think.
You don't remember them ever coming in and trying to time everybody or anything like that, do you?
No. I always worked. I didn't leave my work, only when I had to. I stayed there and I tried to do my work right, and they always praised me for it. I know when they first started it, after I worked a while down there Mr. Moore came to me one day and he said, "Louise, I'm going to bring you a cone." (That's what we ran, from the bobbins onto the cones.) He said, "I'm going to bring you a cone over here. I want