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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview H-0085-2, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
This is the second interview in a two-part series with Louise Riggsbee Jones about her life in Bynum, North Carolina. Born in 1897, Jones lived her entire life in Bynum, North Carolina. Here she focuses on life and work in that working community. Jones describes again the importance of church, discussing in detail the role of religious revivals in her community during the early twentieth century. In addition, she describes her own courtship and marriage at the age of twenty-five. Like many of her peers, Jones was pregnant and had a baby within her first year of marriage, which she attributes in part to the absence of birth control and sexual education. Before the birth of her first child, Jones had worked as a winder in the Bynum cotton mill and she returned to that post during the Great Depression in order to help the family make ends meet. Jones describes working as a winder in the mill, focusing on such issues as work conditions, gender, balancing work and family, relationships between workers, and workers' benefits (specifically Social Security).
Louise Riggsbee Jones describes life and work in Bynum, North Carolina, a cotton mill town, during the first half of the twentieth century. Jones discusses the role of religion, marriage, and family in her life and in the community. In addition, she describes working as a winder in the cotton mill, focusing on such issues as work conditions, gender, balancing work and family, relationships between workers, and workers' benefits.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
But when he got old enough to work, he came to work in the mill
What was her name?
Martha White now. She was Martha
When young people met each other and started seeing each other, did anyone like your parents or your mother or your husband's parents or the minister set rules about how often you could see each other?
No. On most every weekend, if there were ballgames. They had a right good baseball team here then, and they had one at Pittsboro, and he and I and his sister would go to the ballgames a lot when we weren't working.
But no one said, "You're seeing too much of this young guy" or anything
like that.
No, there wasn't anything like that. I was old enough, I reckon my mother thought, to behave myself, and I didn't start dating too young, and I was twenty-five when I married. And so I was old enough to know a little something about what marriage meant.
Did people tend to marry in their mid-twenties, or did a lot of women marry earlier?
I just don't remember too much about it; I didn't pay attention. Mostly
being about twenty or twenty-one, something like that. The summer that
we married, there was two or three couples married. Mrs. Louise Durham
over yonder that lives with Miss Flossie,
Did people frown on that or say that they shouldn't get married that young or they should wait or something like that?
They didn't have any trouble. I guess the families would rather they would wait a little longer, but they got along all right, most of them did, I think, and had good lives.
Did people have to ask someone if they could get married? Was it traditional to ask your parents if you could get married?
Not altogether, I don't think. My husband talked it over with my mother. I think he did it through respect. I wanted him to. And we didn't have a big wedding. I had a sister living in Mebane, and we went up there on weekends some just on Sundays. But my mother and I were the only ones at home then; I was the only one living at home with her. and I told him I wanted him to tell her. And we decided we'd go up there. So we stopped at Hillsborough and got married in Hillsborough; we didn't have a church wedding. We just stopped and went on and spent the night with my sister up there, and my mother was there, too. And it was all right with all the family. I never did think that I'd want a big wedding if I could have had it. Of course, we didn't make enough to spend much on anything like that then.
Do you remember any of your friends having a big wedding?
Not like they have now, but some of them were married in church. But I
never did like to go to a wedding. I don't know; it was
I don't know why, but I've heard several people speak that way about it. Said it was sad. It was more like a funeral to them than anything else. Now we've had three weddings out here at our church in the last three months, I'll say. Two of my great-nieces: one got married in July or the first of August, and then another one got married about three weeks ago. And then last Friday maybe was the week Mrs. Cooper's girl got married down here in the church, so there's been three of our young people here that had church weddings. They had mighty pretty weddings, they said. I didn't go to them, because I just can't wear shoes and clothes like I used to now, and I haven't been going to church. But I always went to church all of my life. I can't even remember when my mother started carrying me to church.
But people have church weddings more now than they did when you were coming up? Was it real unusual for someone to get married in the church?
I don't remember as it was, but they didn't have as much show or whatever you would say as they do now. It was mostly just a quiet wedding. If they wanted to go be married in the church, maybe a few friends and like that.
Did some people feel real strongly about getting the minister to marry them instead of the judge or whatever?
I guess some people did. You know, they have different opinions like
that, but I don't know. Of course, I was always used to
You got married in Hillsborough at the Court House?
No, it wasn't in the Court House. I don't remember exactly who ran the place there. It was right on the street where we stopped. I forgot. But it wasn't a big business place. We just went in there, and there were two men in there. They were witnesses for us. And my mother sat out in the car while we went in there and got married.
How did she react to your getting married? You were her last child. Was she sad?
She didn't say anything against it, because she thought my husband was a
good sort of a young man, and he had good parents, good brothers and
sisters. But of course when she found it out, she cried about it. That's
natural that she would, because I was the only one there with her. But
she stayed on with us as long as she lived. And then when Hettie was
born. . . . I got pregnant just right after we were married, and she was
born in due time. Well, no, the doctor said she was about two or three
weeks early. But when she was about three months old, my mother had a
light stroke. And we had been back to my sister's at Mebane that
weekend, and it had come on her partly while we were up there. And I had
a sister living right out from Carrboro—they ran a milk dairy—and she
got worse after we came on
What was your mother's sister's name, who lived right over here?
Martha Neill.
And what was her husband's name?
Charlie Neill.
How long was he superintendent of the mill, for a long time?
No, not too long. There was one man superintendent, Miss
And my uncle was superintendent during that time. It was just a few years; I don't remember exactly how many years it was.
But then Mr. Edgar Moore got his job back when he came back?
Yes, he got his job back.
I had one other question about when young people started dating in Bynum. Did groups of young people go out together for picnics and outings and ballgames, or did . . .
They just had got to having cars so they could go along not too long after I started dating. Used to we didn't get to go anywhere. But before then the Old Bridge was down here. I had a picture.
You showed us the picture.
And we called [it] "going over the river," walking over the river. And there was a spring over there that a family used there on the hill; it was mighty good water. Go to the spring, and then we'd sit around, just groups together, and talk. Even if you were not dating, just the young girls. Now I did, before I started dating much, go. And I had an aunt who lived with us then—her husband had died—and she'd go with us some. And Miss Flossie Durham had a sister that hadn't been married. She was a grown, settled woman, you know. She would go with us. Just to be together, you know, and talk, and we'd walk out together and all.
I was wondering when you said that you got pregnant right
Yes. They didn't do anything to keep from getting pregnant.
There was nothing
Not like they do now.
Do you remember anyone telling you there was any way you could keep from getting pregnant?
No, nobody told me nothing like that.
When people had children, who did they name them for usually?
Sometimes from the family and sometimes from names that they. . . . My daughter Hettie's named for her grandmother; that's my husband's mother right up there. And everyone says she looks so much like her. She favors his mother, and the people that didn't know her say, "Well, you're like your daddy." But the people that knew his mother say she's just like Mrs. Jones. And she died before we were married, before I started going with him very much. Of course I knew him, but I hadn't been with him. He told me after we started going together, he says, "Louise, you know, Mama said to me one time before I started going with you, she asked me why I didn't go with you." That made me feel good, because I felt like she liked me, and she felt like that I was good enough for him. And it made me feel real good when he told me that. I didn't go with too many boys; I didn't care about it. Of course, when I got older, then I kind of settled on one. I just had two or three friends before then. I didn't go with them very much.
You said that women didn't have any kind of way to keep from having
babies. Did they try, though, not to have too many close
Well, if they did, I don't know it. I don't remember it if they did.
They just didn't use any kind of birth control.
Of course, that came on in later years, I think, because when I was growing up they just had them naturally as they. . . .
Did women tend to have a lot of children when you were growing up? Do you remember what was considered average for a woman to be pregnant?
I wouldn't know the average, but a lot of them had four and five children and sometimes more than that. My mother had eight children, but there were three who died when they were babies.
Did most women your mother's age have babies who had died? She wasn't unusual in that she had three babies die, was she?
No. Her oldest baby died, and I think I told you about that. He had what they called the membrous croup, and there was nothing much that you could do for that then. And I think she had two more, and then a little girl. She wasn't an infant; she was maybe two years old or something like that. She could talk just a little bit; I remember hearing her say that.
What did she die of?
I just don't remember. And she had another little girl that died. And I don't remember what they died with.
Did the women your age tend to have that many children? You had three
children. What about the other women who were your age?
Some of them had more than others. I just don't remember too much. There were some women that had two and three, and some would have four and five. My mother was kind of young; I don't remember how old she was. My father had been married, and his wife died. I had a half-sister, and her mother died when she was about three months old. And she was about three years old when my father and mother married, but he was older than my mother. But we thought as much of our half-sister as if she was our whole sister. And she loved my mother, and my mother did her, just the same as she did the rest of us.
When you were growing up and thinking about having children or thinking about having a family, and even when you were first married, was there ever any feeling that you wanted to have a certain number of children?
No, I didn't.
I mean right now, people all say they want to have two children
No, I never did think that.
But you don't remember thinking there was an ideal-sized family or anything like that?
No, I don't. I was just used to them. I told you my mother went a lot of
times when women had their babies, because they had them at home. The
doctor would come, and they would send for her; she would go a lot and
be with them and help them. And then she would go back and tend to the
babies, dress them for a few days. And they wore bands
When Hettie was born and your other children were born, did you ever think or worry about being able to support children? I don't know the year that Hettie was born; was it during the Depression?
We were married in 1923. She was born in 1924, of course, the next year. But the Depression. . . . Then my next child was born in 1928, and he wasn't a healthy child. He was sick so much. And he died when he was about twenty months old. And then my youngest boy was born in 1931.
What is his name?
Claiborne Young Jones.
Who is he named for?
I just liked the name "Claiborne." There was a man at Raleigh, Claiborne Mangum. He used to sing on the radio, and I liked to hear him so much, and I liked the name. And the "Young" was for his Grandfather Jones. His grandfather was named Young Austin Jones, or Austin Young; I don't know which way he called it. But my boy baby that died was named for my father and his father. My husband's named Paul, and my father's name was Elbert, and so I named him Paul Elbert, and we called him Paul Elbert. Then after he died and my other baby was born, I felt like I wanted to name him for my husband's father. And I just put the "Young" to it, so I named him Claiborne Young.
To get some idea of the number of women, and young men, too, in Bynum who married, did most people marry or did a fair number of people remain single?
I don't remember too much about that.
When you were talking about the young women you were with before you married and how they were grown and they were not married and they were all friends, did most of those end up marrying eventually?
The ones that were my friends all got married.
And all of Paul's friends, did they tend to get married and set up families?
Yes, most of them.
So it was sort of unusual if a young woman didn't marry.
Yes.
Was it also unusual for someone to get divorced or to separate after they married?
It was more unusual then than it is now.
Do you remember anyone ever getting divorced who was your age or your mother's age?
No, I just don't remember when I first started hearing that, about who it was. But I know they lived together more than they do now a whole lot.
Was it something that people would have been afraid to even think about? Was it just something people didn't think about doing? Was there an idea that it was wrong to get a divorce, or bad?
I don't know. I never did hear much about it then. When I
But people would separate if they didn't get along?
Sometimes they would. Maybe the woman would go back with her family, and he'd go back with his. But I don't even remember many cases like that. I couldn't mention one that I did remember, but I can remember that that did happen sometimes.
Would it usually happen when they were first married and before they had children, or would sometimes a woman go back with her children?
I just don't know. I don't remember about that.
I don't mean to dwell on sex and marriage
I guess they did, but I don't remember much about it. But I'll tell you, we didn't know sex. They didn't teach it to us like they do now. And it was more of a sacred thing with us when we were growing up, and something that we shouldn't talk out. Now young people don't think too much about talking sex to one another; you know how they are now. And I sometimes think that they know just a little bit too much, that they don't have the respect for it that they ought to, like we always did.
So when you were growing up, you were sort of taught, or not even taught, that sex was something that was a part of marriage.
Yes. Not too young. Just as I got a little older, I would learn such as that.
I think I told you that I never did know who Santa Claus was, and my
sister finally told me who Santa Claus was. I thought
And it would scare me to death.
We'd always have a Christmas tree, carry gifts, the people, one for
another and put them on the Christmas tree. And they'd have a Christmas
program. The children would have little pieces to sing and sing songs,
and the older people would sing Christmas songs. And then
I told you about my doll, and I have that doll now. And I was afraid to look, but I can see it right now hanging up in the tree. But I was so afraid of Santa Claus, I wouldn't sit up and look at my doll too much. I would sit in my mother's lap when I was afraid of Santa Claus.
Did people take their presents, like if your mother gave you a present she would put your name on it and take it to the church and put it on the tree?
Yes. All my sisters, brothers, or aunts, cousins, different ones, and friends, if they wanted to give you something they'd carry it and put it on the Christmas tree.
Did people ever have trees or decorations in their own houses?
Not then like they have in the . . .
Every home would have one big Christmas tree?
Yes, we'd all have a tree at the church.
I was wondering if there were any other times during the year when there
were celebrations like that or parties like that. What
We had Easter programs. They'd have a service at church with the children
and the older people taking part in the program. [Interruption]
They would have just the recitations on the Easter service, and they'd
sing the Easter songs more and something like that. And there was a
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
When did they start having the homecomings?
I don't know. It was just a few years ago that I remember. When I was a
child, they would go to another church. We had so many churches on the
circuit, this church and Ebenezer Church down in the country—I don't
know how far, ten or twelve miles, maybe more than that— and Mount
Pleasant up yonder and Mann's Chapel and Cedar Grove. We'd have one
preacher. He lived here; the parsonage was here. And he would have all
these churches to preach, and we didn't have but one Sunday, one sermon.
As far back as I remember, we had one on third Sundays. And then it got
so in later years we would have one sermon one Sunday night during the
month. But he would have to go each Sunday to these churches. Cedar
Grove and Mann's Chapel are not too far apart up yonder. The best I
remember, I think maybe he'd go from one church to the other, because I
think I counted about five churches. There's usually four Sundays. That
would just give him a church each Sunday. And they had to go in the
horse and buggy then; they didn't have cars. You know, it would take him
all day to go and have his service and get back home. And sometimes the
different churches would gather at one church for a song festival to
carry dinner and have a dinner on the grounds. And our church would go
on picnics sometimes. I know
Everyone from the church would go, carry dinner and . . .
All that wanted to that belonged to the Sunday school. We called them the Sunday school picnics. And we'd have to get a way from here to Pittsboro and get on the train and go on the train to Raleigh. Now that's why we didn't have much time to take up for the picnic, and we'd go to Durham once in a while to the park up there and have a picnic. That was after I got older; I remember that.
Would that be at any particular time of the year, like in the summertime?
Yes, they would always be in the summertime when we'd have the picnics, when we could be outside.
What about in the fall when the farmers would be harvesting their crops? Would they ever come into town and either sell their stuff or have some kind of celebration when they brought stuff in?
There weren't as many stores here; there wasn't but one store for a long time here. And then there were two. And the first store that I ever remember was down below this house. They called it the company store. I think the company that owned the mill ran the store, because they called it the company store. And then Mr. Jim Atwater and Mr. Rufus Lambeth bought it out, and it was Atwater and Lambeth's store. And they built one right out here about where our road comes up to the house. A Mr. Joe Mann built that and ran the store there for a few years, but they tore it down after so many years. And then Mr. Durham and Guilford were the ones who put in the stores.
But you don't remember anything about farmers coming in in the fall into town or anything like that?
No, I don't.
What about when people butchered their hogs? Would you have an extra good meal or something after you'd butchered the hogs?
Nearly all of the people here then would have a hog or two for themselves. And we had the colored people, which they call blacks now—I was always taught to call them colored people—but they would help if the husband. . . . Of course, my father was dead, but my mother would have her a hog, and there was an old colored man, Uncle Sam Clark, and his wife. They were just the best kind of people, and he would look after hers every time, just as much so as if it had been his own. She could depend on Uncle Sam to look after killing her hogs, and his wife, Aunt Molly, would come and help her cook the lard and make the sausage. And that's along then, but the families don't raise as many hogs now as they used to. They can buy too much at the store.
What did Uncle Sam Clark do for a living?
He was a farmer.
Just out from Bynum?
Yes. He was a renter.
What about Election Day? Do you remember that as being a big event? Where did people go to vote?
I don't remember much about that. Since the women got the vote, I voted some. I haven't voted every time.
Do you remember when women got the vote?
No, I don't remember the year.
I mean were you excited about it or anything?
Not too much. I just kind of depend on my husband. I don't know politics.
I told him here the other night, listening on the radio, you know, I says, "Well, all we know is one says, ‘I'll do this,’ and the other'll do that, and then when they get in office they do just what they want to do."
Now that's the way it is.
Is your husband interested in politics? Has he always been interested?
He votes most of the time, but he's not interested too much. He tries to learn what he can about the different ones that run. And sometimes, since my son got grown, there's somebody that he wants. He'll say, "Well, Mama, you and Daddy vote for such-and-such a one." The last time I voted I went down to the Ruritan building, and my son went in with me and he marked my ballot. I've been so that I couldn't see good now for a long time, and I just depend on him to do things like that for me. But I haven't voted in a right good little bit.
Did people run for office from Bynum? Do you remember anyone ever campaigning actively in Bynum? When you were little, do you remember candidates coming through here?
There were some from Pittsboro that would come here and make a talk. The
school building was up yonder then. I started to school down there, but
I was going to school up yonder. And I was a good-sized little girl. I
went up there one night to the speaking. There was a Democrat and a
Republican. I think Mr. Jim Griffin from Pittsboro and Mr. Fred Bynum .
Mr. Fred was the Republican, and Mr. Griffin was the Democrat. And they
both made a speech, one after the other. I went back home that night. My
mother didn't go. And I got back home and I said, "Ma, I tell you one
thing. When I get grown I'm going to be a Republican."
What did she say?
She didn't say.
Did you know Mr. Fred Bynum from here or from Pittsboro?
I wasn't acquainted with him especially, but he lived at Pittsboro. I knew of him, and Mr. Griffin, too. I had been hearing about them right much, but I wasn't personally acquainted with them.
Did you become a Republican?
Yes, I'm Republican.
I'll tell you, if there's a Democrat, say, for the county office or
something like that that we like, we vote for the man that we like. But
we consider ourselves. . . . My husband is a Republican. Not because I
was; he just happened to be that.
Did you ever support a Democrat? Did you ever support Franklin Roosevelt? Did you like him or not like him?
I don't remember whether I voted then or not.
Do you remember anything about the New Deal after the Depression? Were you excited about that?
Not too much. I'd had too hard a time during the Depression
But you didn't think that the New Deal would help you out or anything like that?
I don't know. I just didn't think too much about it. Some people thought
it would, and some thought it wouldn't, and I just didn't know. But we
got through the Depression; God helped us through. He's been with us all
the time. I give God credit for being what I am and having the life that
I've had, and helping me all of my life. I have a lot of faith in God.
And I remember one prayer. When my son was in service he never was in
the fighting, but he was in. . . . Well, what was it? I forgot now. But
he would come home when he was in camp. He was in Georgia, and it came
along toward the last before he went overseas. He'd come home on
weekends with some boys. They'd get together—some lived at
Fayetteville—and he'd come with them, and some of the family would meet
him down there. And late Sunday evening
You said he came back one time for a revival.
Did the church down here have revivals pretty often?
Yes, we have a revival almost every year down here.
Did they do that when you were a little girl?
Yes.
They always had a revival.
They always had a revival once a year.
What was it like? Did people come from all around?
It was the people here. Some people in the community from the other
churches would come, after it got so they had ways to come and go back.
And people would repent and go in the church, young people, and the
older people too sometime. It would last about a week, at night, because
they always worked during the day here, and
Would they still have a revival when they worked a night shift? Would people get off for the revival?
They had one last year, and they had one here about a month ago. But they can't very well get off from their jobs. The ones that work on the morning shift can go, but the ones that go in at three o'clock and work till eleven, they can't very well get off to go.
The mill never gave people time off to go, even when you were younger?
It didn't run at night much when I worked. It did the last few years that I worked. After I was married I worked some at night when Hettie and Claiborne were small. But my husband would be at home—he worked on morning—and I didn't work the whole number of hours. I forgot who the man was over it then, but he would let some of us married women that wanted to work some work maybe four or five hours of that time and then come home. And sometimes we'd work the whole time out if they had more work to do and all.
Were revivals always important to you?
Oh, yes, I always enjoyed the revivals.
Did you originally join the church during one?
Yes. They would take the members in at the last service of the revival. Yes, I joined the church after the revival.
Do you remember how old you were, or do you remember it as a real important time?
I don't remember just how old I was, but I was old enough
I was wondering if there were any places in Bynum where people got together or met, other than the church. Were there any voluntary organizations, or was there a group of Masons or anything like that?
Not too much. Of course, they had the Missionary Societies, and they used to have what they called the Epworth League for the young people. My older sister always went. But they always had the meetings at the church.
Were there any organizations for men that you remember?
No, not unless it was just the class meetings or something like that from the Sunday school. And when we had a picnic, that was for the whole Sunday school, grown people, children, and all.
What is the Ruritan Club?
It's a men's club. Now I just don't know what. The Ruritan Building is
down yonder there, that cement building down yonder. And when the church
held suppers to sell, you know, now they do, and if people have things
at home they can give to have a sale, maybe good clothes or something—a
nice suit of clothes a man has, and maybe he's outgrown it or something,
and a piece of furniture if you decided you can give them—they'll have a
sale, too, to make money for the church. Now they had one down here. Our
pastor, did I tell you that
No.
He did. Dynamite. It was something since he's been in his work. I never
have known. He's been to see me, but he didn't tell me just exactly how
it happened. And he like to lost his eyesight. But he's been off; he's
going to get him a hand. And they say that he can lift as much as
thirty-five pounds with it when he gets it put on. And so that was going
to cost him I don't know, I heard $2,500 and I heard $2,700, but it was
right much. They had a supper here a few weeks ago down there at the
Ruritan building, the church. They have it at the Ruritan building,
things like that, and they had an auction sale, too, to sell things. And
different ones would give him a contribution if they wanted to. And the
Missionary Society, the classes, different ones, has a bake sale to sell
their pies and cakes and things at the store. The members will bake
them, and they'll carry them to the store, meet there and sell them.
I've gone a little too far. It was the revival. They had the revival,
and they took a special collection down there one night, was going to
give it all to him. And I think they got some over four hundred dollars
down there that night. And then they had the bake sale and the auction
sale. And I think they've made about nine hundred dollars the last I
heard, but I think he's got some more since then. And they said he was
so thrilled and so thankful that he cried. Said he said, "Well, I don't
feel I can ever leave the people here. They've been so good to me." And
he had one little girl and his wife was expecting another one when they
moved here. This is his first year. And so she's had that now, and
My goodness.
And he was talking to some of them about how he'd pick up his little
girl. He'd just get her around and hold her with this one; he couldn't
hold her with the other arm. And he came over here one day, and my
grandson from Southport was here, and he's got two little girls. The
oldest one was just in a playpen. She could walk, but she stayed in a
playpen, and she was in there in Hettie's room. And he went on in there
and I went in there, and he had picked her up. He says, "Now don't you
all say anything to me about how I hold this baby. I hold mine that
way."
You said it was at the Ruritan Club. Is that an old club, or is that a pretty new group in town?
I don't know. It hasn't been here too many years.
It wasn't here when you were young?
Oh, no.
Did your husband ever belong to it?
No, he doesn't go out to anything like that much. He just stays at home with me most of the time. But there's several men here that do belong to it. I don't know just what they do, but they help in things that they can. The Ruritan Club gave him five hundred dollars on his bill for his hand.
Was that a common thing when you were growing up? If someone
Since I went to work, they certainly have been good about
Would the J. M. Odell Company ever give money to anybody?
I don't know, but I think they did. I think they would always put something with it.
They'd contribute, too?
I think they would; I wouldn't say for sure. Because I always had a job I had to stay all the time. I ran a winder, and we got paid by the pound, what we got off. If we didn't stay at our work, we didn't make much.
So you couldn't circulate the. . . .
No. And some of them that worked by the hour and didn't have to stay so close at their work would go around and take up the collections for them.
Just questions about Bynum in general. Was there ever
No. I don't think so. They'd go somewhere else and get their beer and whiskey.
Where would they go?
They have a liquor store in Pittsboro, and I think you can buy it up yonder at the county line.
What about when you were growing up or when you were a young woman? Do you remember people drinking?
They used to. They called it blockading. They'd make it in the country. People would make their own liquor and sell it secretly. It got so the law would go, and they called it stills where they made it, cooked the stuff and made the liquor. And the law would go and tear up the stills and pour out what they could find around there. So when they did that, they had to kind of do it on the sly, not publicize it.
Did people drink a good bit? Did people usually have something around to drink?
Some of them did, and a lot of them didn't. I think that's everywhere. But now and then there'd be some that would.
Would people ever get together and drink, or did people tend to just drink in their own houses?
My people didn't drink. But I reckon they were just. . . . But I was so
afraid of one. Ooo-ee. I told you what a timid, queer child I was.
A man who just drank pretty much?
He'd just take it by spells. He'd drink and he'd stay drunk two or three weeks at a time. He worked down here at the mill. He was a good kindly man. He had a mighty nice wife, and she had two girls that were mighty nice girls, and a son. He drove the company wagon, they called it. They had two nice horses, big horses, and a wagon. They had to haul the yarn that they sold to Pittsboro, and it went off on a train. It was shipped to wherever it was going. Mr. Crutchfield drove the wagon, and he was big, he was tall; he wasn't so fat, but he was just a big man. And strong? I've seen him. . . . The well was right out yonder. We lived right across the street. And we had to draw our water up with a bucket. And he'd go there . . .
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
He didn't bother anybody. He stayed at home. He was quiet. But I was just afraid because I knew he was drinking. But he didn't want anybody to bother the company horses.
Would he just not work while he was drunk?
No, he couldn't work while he was drinking that much. But they just went on and put up with him. He was a good worker. And he was a nice man except just those spells that he'd take drinking, and he was a good neighbor.
But the company let him keep his job?
Yes, he kept his job with them. And they didn't find any fault with him in a way. They just kept him.
Would they do that with other people, or did you ever know of anyone who'd lose their job for drinking? Would the company sometimes fire you?
I imagine they would; I don't know. But they had to do right much right badly before they'd fire them. If they were on the job, it would be all right. And they wouldn't go on the job drinking much.
When you were growing up and when you were just married, was Bynum a peaceful place to live? Was there ever any violent crime, or did people carry guns, or was it pretty peaceful? Did you have to worry about things being stolen?
No, not too much. Of course, there were wrong things done; I think there have been everywhere. But it used to be a right good place to live. It was almost like one big family. The people all knew one another and were neighborly with one another most of the time. But of course, now and then there'll be a family that doesn't conduct themselves just right. Sometimes there would be one, but there weren't many of them, not when I was growing up.
Was there ever a murder or anything like that that you remember hearing about?
I don't remember if there was. No, I couldn't mention one. It's been so long.
I wanted to ask you some more things about your work in the mill
specifically. When you started to work, right after the mill burned down
and the new one was built in 1916 or 1917, when it started,
I got pregnant and I worked awhile, but I quit then. And I didn't work
anymore till after my mother died. She lived about three years after she
had her first stroke. She wasn't down, but she was threatened with a
stroke every little bit, and I stayed at home. The doctors told her not
to walk, not to get out. I stayed at home closer than she did, in a way.
I wouldn't leave her to even run down to the store. We had the outside
toilets, and ours was out from the house. And she'd walk up there. And
we had a mighty good neighbor woman that lived next to us out there that
she thought a lot of, a Miss Betty Thomas, and she'd stop at Miss
Betty's a lot of time of a morning when she'd come on back from the
toilet. Well, I would stay at home and just worry myself to death. I
didn't want her to know that I was worrying about her, was uneasy about
her, because I knew that would worry her. And so one day she stayed so
long, and I could just imagine, "Well, maybe she's had a stroke and fell
on the way or something," and wouldn't go out looking for her; I didn't
want her to know it. But I told her one day. She came back; I said,
"Mama, where have you been?" She said, "I stopped in to see Miss Betty."
I says, "Well, please, hereafter, whenever you want to stop to see Miss
Betty, you tell me you're going to stop. I was uneasy about you, afraid
maybe you'd got sick or something." So after that when she'd go, if she
thought she was going to stop and see Miss Betty, she'd say, "Well,
Louise, I expect I'll go and see Miss Betty a few minutes this morning,"
and that was the most that she got out.
So when they were about six or seven you went back to work fulltime?
I had to wind. That's the only thing that I ever knew how to do in the
mill, was to wind. I'd get
So you went back regular after they went to school, then?
Yes, I worked after they were both going to school, the regular number of hours on the second shift. Paul was there at home with them at night. And then when Hettie finished high school, she went to work. She didn't want to go off to school anywhere. We wanted her to go, but she didn't want to go. And she went to work, so I quit. I didn't work any more then.
And then she stayed at home with you here when she started working?
Yes, she was at home.
Was that in the early forties when you quit working then, and she graduated?
They started the Social Security, I think, in 1938, and I worked about
five years after they started that. I know when I went over
Do you remember when it was passed in 1938?
Yes, I remember it.
Do you remember how you felt about it then?
I didn't have much idea that we'd ever get any good. . . . We didn't
understand exactly what it was, how it would be. You don't, I don't
think, till you get older, about anything like that, when it first
starts. But I didn't think it would ever help us as much as it has. Now
I've heard them talking a lot on the radio. . . . Paul goes to bed so
early of a night. But I don't go to bed early, because my arthritis, I
get to hurting, and lying on one side I have to turn so often in the
bed. I sit up every night till Hettie comes. Sometimes I go to sleep
sitting in here and sleep maybe an hour. But I've heard them talking on
the WPTF "Open Line." People call in and talk to
Are you excited about that happening, about them fixing them up, or how do you feel about it?
So you're just sort of waiting.
I'm just waiting. I said, "Paul, don't worry. Just stay here. God's going
to take care of us. I'm not uneasy about that. We'll have a place to
stay." And Claiborne, my son, told me, "Mama, don't you and Daddy worry.
You'll have a place. I'll fix you a place
You said that when you were working you worked by the pound?
Yes.
Did you have a quota or a certain number of pounds you were supposed to turn out a day?
Yes, in a way we did, but we could always make that. And if we made over that, we got extra pay for it.
So you tried to always make more than the . . .
Yes, we always tried to make every bit we could. They'd pay us so much a pound. And I don't even remember, but you made so many pounds and that paid for the wages that you were supposed to get. And then all we made over that, we got extra pay for it.
Did Paul also work by the pound?
He was a doffer; he doffed the spinning frames. And I don't remember whether they got paid by the frame or by the hour. I believe, though, that they got paid by the frame. Some would be on coarse work and some on fine work. The ones on coarse work would doff more often. They didn't have quite as many frames. I really don't remember whether he worked by the piece or . . .
But you worked by the pound.
Yes, I worked by the pound.
So you never finished your work. You never finished and rested or never finished your quota and helped someone else. You just kept working.
Just kept working on my own side. All I could make, I got
While you were working there, did they ever try to speed up the work? Did they ever try to have everyone work faster?
Sometimes, different numbers that way. They would speed it up; if it was on the fine work, maybe they'd speed it up a little bit. But they didn't try to over-speed it, not when I worked. They do more such as that now than they did when I worked, I think.
You don't remember them ever coming in and trying to time everybody or anything like that, do you?
No. I always worked. I didn't leave my work, only when I had to. I stayed
there and I tried to do my work right, and they always praised me for
it. I know when they first started it, after I worked a while down there
Mr. Moore came to me one day and he said, "Louise, I'm going to bring
you a cone." (That's what we ran, from the bobbins onto the cones.) He
said, "I'm going to bring you a cone over here. I want you to run it
over for me. What you find in it, you lay it up. Don't say a word to
nobody about it. I want to see what's in it." You see, we tied knots
with our fingers. We'd tie it and break it off; it would be just little
ends like that. Well, some of them would tie and leave the ends, maybe
it would be that long. They didn't care, you see, just so they were
getting it off. And he had noticed one hand down there doing that. And
so he brought me the cone, but he knew that I tried to do my work right.
And when he brought it he said, "I'll bring it to you. Now whatever you
find in it, you lay it up on top of the winder and I'll come back after
a while and see."
How big were the cones?
They were that big around, I reckon. They were bigger at one end than they were at the other. They'd weigh maybe two pounds apiece. I don't remember hardly.
Would Mr. Moore tell the person who was doing poor work that they were doing poor work and had to do it better?
I never did know. I never did ask him another question, and he never did tell me another thing about it. He knew I wouldn't say anything about it; that's one reason he brought it to me, I reckon. And I never did ask him, but I imagine they said something to her about it, maybe, to try to stop it.
How did you feel about working in the mill? Had you wanted to work in the mill when you were younger, or did you ever think about doing any other kind of work?
Yes, I wanted to work. I never did want to work anywhere else, because
I've never been anywhere else, only around here. And one of my brothers
But you had always wanted to work in the mill?
Yes, I wanted to work. I had one teacher one time; I think that's about
the only schoolteacher I ever had that I couldn't understand. I always
loved my teachers, and they always seemed to love me. But I had one man
teacher one time. His name was Mr. Cook. I was up around fifteen years
old then, fourteen or fifteen, and I don't know; I couldn't understand
him. He was a peculiar kind of person, and I tried to get my work. I
always did work hard at school. But he told us one day on we called it
grammar (it was English class). . . . And we didn't get along. That was
one thing I couldn't get along in, but I'm going to say it and tell the
truth: I learned more from him out of that than I ever had before. Now
that's the way it turned out. But he told us on class there one day, he
says, "Well, you all just haven't got a thimbleful of sense." That went
against me, because I never was used to teachers speaking to me like
that because I had always tried to do my work, and they would try to
help me. But he'd just go right on through the class; he didn't do too
much explaining. And so I just
You told me about that before, and I was wondering if, when you did start to work, your headaches continued. Did they?
I had the migraine headache till the change of life took place for me, and since I got through with that I don't have any. But I'd have a spell every month of my life and near about die with it. When I was working I'd have to stay out of work; I couldn't work.
So you did have them when you. . . . But it was just during your periods you would have them?
Yes, more. But I had it between times, but I'd always have such a bad
spell at that time. But anything most unusual would cause me to have the
headache. And they put glasses on me when I was about twelve years old.
I told you about that. But my mother went to see Mr. Cook. My sister and
brother were at home—they were not married then—and they didn't want me
to go to work; they wanted me to go on with school. And she went to see
him to see if he'd let me drop one or two of my studies so I wouldn't
have to study so hard. And he said, "Well, what's the matter? She's
never been to me yet when she didn't have a good lesson." And she said,
"Well, that's the trouble. She studies so hard that she just dies with a
headache every evening when she comes home." But he did let me drop two
studies, and so I kept my spelling, reading, arithmetic, and English.
And there were two, a boy and a girl, in the class; they were older than
I was, and
Was he the last teacher you had before you went to work?
No. I think I had one more after that.
Was the work ever dangerous? Did you ever get hurt, or did you ever see anyone else get hurt?
No. Well, they could get hurt, but my work wasn't dangerous. I just put a bobbin on a spinner down here, and the spindle up here that the cone was on, and I'd tie the knot on it. And there was no need to get hurt at all if you would mind your own business. Of course, you could get hurt at most anything you do if you'd care to.
I don't remember whether they did much or not along then. I don't remember it. Maybe sometimes they'd mash a finger or something like that. Nothing serious.
What was it like inside the mill? It was a brand new mill. Was it real clean and nice, or was there lint?
Yes, there was right much lint. There was more lint in it then than there is now. They don't have as much lint now as they did when it first started. They've done things to try to keep it down.
Was it hot in there?
Yes. They opened the windows then. They'd keep the windows open all the
time. But now they have air-conditioning in there, and they've closed up
all the windows and padded them. You can't see through the windows at
all. And I just miss seeing the lights at night. Used to, when we were
out there, when they ran at night, the mill was
When you worked, could you see out the window when it was open?
Yes, we could see. We could go to the window and look out whenever we wanted to, but they can't see anything out now.
That must have been nice, to be able to look out.
It was.
Was it noisy in there? Could you talk to each other?
Yes, it was noisy, but we learned to talk. And when you're used to the noise, you can understand better. Somebody going in that wasn't used to it, you'd have to talk louder to them. We'd have to talk louder than just natural talking.
Did you work so fast and furiously that you didn't really have time to talk to each other, or could you talk?
As I said, Paul's sister Martha, she worked in the alley; my side was
here, and her side was over here. We could talk to each other. When we'd
pass each other, we could speak, or we could stop and talk. It just
meant that when your bobbin ran out and you needed another bobbin on
there, you weren't making anything till you got your full bobbin and got
it started. If you took time away from your work, you didn't get off as
much. But we could stop and talk if we wanted to. And in some of the
other jobs the people could talk a little more than we could. The
spinners. They'd pass and re-pass in the alleys; they could stop and
talk. And some of them would catch up a little while.
Did that happen sometimes?
Sometimes, but not often. They usually tried to have enough frames on the numbers that they could keep up with them. It was kind of according to the hands. If a hand was out and another one was running that job, maybe if they didn't keep it up and get off as much it might get a little behind. And when the regular ones worked, they could keep up, and sometimes we'd catch up a little bit, not much.
Did you ever want to learn how to do spinning?
Well, no, I don't know as I ever did. I could sort of put up an end, as they called it, but I never did try to learn to spin. My sister spun when she worked in there, but I never did.
Did the lint bother you? Did you have trouble breathing ever?
No, it didn't bother me much. There wasn't as much lint down at one end where the winders were as there was up in the spinning room. And they finally moved the winders down in the basement one time, and then they built some more on to the mill and they moved them back up . . .
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
. . . being really bothered by the lint?
No, he never did say much about it if he was.
Did anyone have a real bad reaction to it or have trouble doing the work because of the lint?
No, I don't think so. I don't remember hearing it if they did.
No one had to quit because of it.
No.
Were most of the employees women or were most of them men, or was it pretty evenly divided?
I couldn't tell you about the numbers. But upstairs they had what they
called the card room. They were running the cotton when I worked. They'd
get that in big bales. Where they'd tear that up, they called it the l
Was it easier most of the time for a woman to get a job, or for a man, or did it not matter?
They worked both, and I don't remember. There might have been some jobs it was easier for maybe a man could get it. It was a man's work, and a woman couldn't do that, up in the card room, some of it, because it would be some lifting and all in it and they couldn't do that.
Did a lot of husbands and wives work together on the same shift?
Yes.
Could they talk to each other?
Yes, we had the privilege of speaking to anybody in there that we wanted to. If we were on up through the spinning room, we could stop and speak to different ones that were working up there if we wanted to, just so it didn't affect our work.
Did any black people work in the mill?
No. Not then they didn't.
And there weren't any black people living up on the hill either, were there?
No.
Did any black children go to the school?
No, never while I was going to school. There have been several the last few years.
How closely were the workers in the mill supervised? Was the supervisor or the overseer always there, or did you not see them sometimes for a long period?
Yes, they'd have one. Mr. Moore was the superintendent. He was over the
whole mill. But they'd have one section head or superintendent, they'd
call it, upstairs over the carding, and have one downstairs. Mr. Manley
Durham, Mrs. Flossie's husband, he was over the spinning for years down
there. He was over it when I worked.
I was going to give him a doff at six o'clock. I never said a word to
him, but I was working so hard trying to keep every end going. And it
took us about four hours to run a doff. And Laura Neill came down there.
She said, "Louise, why in the world are you working so hard?" And I told
her. I said, "Laura, I'm going to give him a doff at six o'clock
tonight. I mean that thing." And she stayed down there and helped me a
while.
And I had him a doff lying up there as I took off just before six o'clock
that night, too.
How long was he your supervisor?
A right good while, until he got disabled to work.
How was he disabled? What happened?
I don't remember what Rob's trouble was. He was sick a right good while
before he died. He had a mighty nice wife; she's living now. She's over
at Pittsboro in the home over there. She married again.
Was his disability related at all to the work that he'd done?
No, it wasn't the work that caused it. I just don't remember what his trouble was, but it wasn't the work that caused it.
Were there certain rules at work? Could you take breaks at certain times, or did they have rules about eating there or not eating there or smoking or anything like that? Or drinking?
No. There were some of the hands that would catch up. They wouldn't have to work. Their work would run so long, and if they wanted to smoke they'd go outside and smoke. And if we wanted to eat something, though, we'd just eat it. We weren't compelled to work that way. We'd just take our own time and eat if we wanted to eat something, a piece of candy or something like that, during the time we were at work.
What about going to the rest room or anything like that?
We went just whenever we felt like we wanted to go. We didn't have any certain time to go.
Did you have to be at work on time?
Supposed to.
And you were supposed to be there at six in the morning?
Six in the morning, work till twelve and have an hour for dinner. Go back at one and work till six that night.
What if you were late?
They wouldn't say much to you. I'll tell you one thing:
Were there holidays that people had off from the mill? Did you have vacations or anything like that?
They'd have some time off for Christmas.
About how long would you have off?
I don't remember. It wouldn't be but just a few days. The time of the week that Christmas was on, maybe. If we had the weekend, we'd have another day or two with it.
Was Christmas about the only one?
Maybe there were other lawful holidays. Maybe they'd stand a day now and
then. I just don't remember too much about that. If we
If you were sick or something, would you just send word that you couldn't come?
Yes.
But were you paid if you were sick? Did you have sick time?
No, we didn't. If we weren't down there on the job, we didn't get paid for it. If you got sick down there, you could go home.
Was there ever any kind of council of workers or of employees to help make rules or to talk about problems or anything like that?
There was nothing more than just like the superintendent and the one that was over the spinning. If you needed to know something, you'd go and ask one of them.
But you'd do it, usually, individually?
Yes.
Was there any competition among the people who were working there? Did you ever have. . . . What do you call them?
Someone trying to make more than the others?
Right.
Was it like a game?
No, I don't know as they ever said anything about it. I always stayed at
my work and got off what I could. If anybody ever tried to race with me,
they never said anything to me about it.
Was it friendly competition, or did it sometimes not get so friendly?
Yes. They never had any trouble about it.
Was anyone ever promoted to head winder, or something like that?
No, all the winders were the same. The man that took up the yarn weighed it for us. Now if we needed to know things, we could go to him and ask him sometimes about different numbers or something. And there was one worked with him that wrapped and packed it in the box. Of course, he didn't have anything to do with the winders. But the one that was over the spinning room, like Mr. Manley was, if we needed to know anything much we'd either go to him or to the superintendent, one or the other.
Were women treated differently than men in the mill?
I think they were all treated good. It's like I said, they had privileges. They are not so strict on them, like they are at most other mills, never have been here.
Were women ever promoted to be supervisor or overseer of the . . .
No, it was mostly the men that would be like that, I think, the best I remember about it.
Did they ever try to give women work that wasn't quite as heavy or ever give women more time off or anything like that that you remember?
I don't remember. They just had the women's jobs and the men's jobs. The men's jobs were for a heavier or stronger person and all. That's the way it was divided up. The spinning room downstairs was mostly women. They had boy doffers and some help like that, and the winding. Of course, they had a boy bring us bobbins and put them in our trough, we called it, for us to wind, and like that.
Did children work there after school or at night or in the summertime?
They could work some through the summer. They could work younger then than they can now. They used to go to work at twelve years old.
When you were working there, the boy who'd bring you the bobbins would be twelve or so?
No, he would be older than that. He had to be stronger. He'd roll them in a box, and then he'd have to pick up that box and pull them along. He'd have to be almost grown to do that. A good-sized boy.
Were married women ever treated differently than single women that you remember?
I don't think so.
It didn't really matter about your work if you . . .
No, it didn't.
I was wondering about how you felt about working after you were married. Did you want to be able to stay home, or did Paul want you to stay home instead of having to go to work? How did he feel about your working?
Well, I'll tell you. The Depression came along, and I wanted to work and help all I could. He didn't run around anywhere; he always stayed at home right close. And he loved to go to ballgames. He'd go to ballgames maybe on Saturday afternoon and all away from here. But he stayed at home good. And I just worked some extra time when I could, when he could be with the children. I never did put my children out here and yonder and everywhere and go leave them. If I could have them to stay at home, I didn't work.
Did some women put their children with other women to stay? How did people get people to take care of their children?
Most of the time, one would be at home and the other one at work, along then.
That's how most people did it?
They didn't have the day care nurseries and all like they do now.
Did the mill ever provide any kind of care? Could you take your children down there?
No. Children could go in the mill, which they can't now, with you. Or if they were big enough to go by themselves, they could go.
Would children ever come get their parents if they needed them?
If it was at home and they needed to tell you or ask you something, they could come in and do that, but they couldn't stay in there, of course, for long. But they were not as strict about it as they are now.
When you were working, did you and Paul both do the housework like you both took care of the children?
Yes. When I worked at night, Paul would get up of a morning and fix him some breakfast and go on to work. He had to go to work at six, you know. And then I would get up—Claiborne and Hettie were both in school—in time to help them a little to get ready to go to school, because I wanted them always to look right, be right when they'd go. But he'd always get up and fix him something to eat of a morning; I didn't get up to do that.
But you did most of the cooking during the day, like the main meal?
Yes. And then after Hettie got bigger, she and he together would fix supper. I'd always leave something cooked to help out, and they'd warm over and fix a little supper for them at night.
How were decisions made, like about spending money? Did you always decide those things together, or did Paul decide how money would be spent, or did you run the budget and buy the food and . . .
We both handled the money. That's one thing we've always done. What's his
is mine, and what's mine was his, if we needed
Did the J. M. Odell Company offer insurance? Could you get medical insurance or anything from them?
No.
Were there any benefits at all? Do they pay a pension or anything like that?
No. My husband worked down there over fifty years. Of course, he hasn't
been quit but about two years. And a lot of places, they'd take out so
much for your retirement. They'll take out so much of yours, and they
put in as much as they take of yours, but they never have done that down
here. Paul said a time or two here lately he's worried so since he's had
to quit work. And he said, "Well, I used to try to get them to have a
retirement fund down there, and they never would do it." Working as long
as he did, if it had been taken out a little along, he could draw so
much from that now to help out with
Do you remember him ever going to them and suggesting that they do that?
No, I never did know when he did, but I've heard him say that he had spoken about it down there to them.
Were there any of the women you worked with trying to get some kind of pension?
Well, I expect a whole lot of them. Now there's some of them wouldn't want them to take out anything from it, but a lot of them would have been glad if they would, I reckon. But they never did. They had an insurance on the hands. If they lost an arm or a hand or anything down there, the company would have to pay for that. But so far as the medical expenses or hospitalization or anything, they never did have it on us.
Did they ever have anything like recreation programs? Did they ever have a baseball team?
Not in the name of the company, but they used to have it here. They used to have good ball teams here.
Just people from Bynum.
Yes. And maybe one that lived out, not right in Bynum, would come and
play with them. But most of the time it was here. I had a brother. He
was a left-handed pitcher; he was a real good pitcher. And my sister
married one. He was a pitcher. They had real good ball teams here then.
And ooh, I used to go and just holler my head off.
I just loved it to death.
Did the company always keep its word? If they said they were going to give a raise or something like that, would they come through with it?
I think so. So far as I remember, they did.
Did people get raises very often? Like after you'd been working for a certain period of time did you get a raise?
I don't remember much about that. Of course, if it came along and they were supposed to raise, they would. And some of them made it. Now we were all winders. We just worked. Sometimes they'd raise our pay a little bit, so much a pound. But in the other part of the mill, I just don't know about that.
In Bynum was there ever any division between people who were supervisors in the mill and people who were just workers, once you got home? Or was everyone sort of equal? I mean was there any social status involved in being a supervisor?
I don't think so. People always got along good together here, and they thought well of one another because there were good people here most of the time. And we would all visit one another. They worked all day; they visited more at night. We called it going and staying till bedtime with neighbors. My mother would, and of course I was always wherever she was at. Mrs. Moore lived here, Mrs. Flossie Durham's mother.
Here in this house?
Yes. And Mr. Carey Durham, Mr. Frank was born in that part of the house
where his rooms are. But she'd come to Mrs. Moore's one night, and Mrs.
Moore would come to see us. And we'd go to Mrs.
Did anyone ever think of starting a union here or starting any kind of employee organization?
They talked about it several times, but the company never did want it. If they have a union they can do more of what they want to do, and the company can't help it. But the company never did want a union here, it seemed like, so they never did have one here.
Did you ever try to get one, or did you ever think it
No, I never did think much about it.
I was wondering if during the Depression or right before the Depression if you heard about other organizing drives in North Carolina, if you heard about strikes in other places?
I probably did. I don't know. I don't remember it if I did.
Do you ever remember workers in Durham, say, going out on strike?
I don't know. We didn't go around much. Along then, you didn't have any
way to go. Because when we'd go to Durham before they
Did you get word of what was going on?
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
. . . remember ever hearing about a big strike in Durham?
No, I don't.
Did anyone here ever walk out or ever get so angry about work that they just said, "I can't take this any more; I'm going to . . ."
I imagine they did, but I don't remember it especially. But if they got wronged, they'd quit. Maybe they'd go back then later on.
But people would usually quit rather than try to argue?
Oh, yes. If something happened and they didn't like it, if they wanted to they'd just quit. They never did try to get all the others to quit with them or anything like that.
Do you remember specifically any group of workers. . . . Did the winders ever say, "We've got to do something about what's going on" all together? Did the doffers ever say. . . .
I don't think they did. The best I remember, I don't think they ever got together that way against them anywhere.
After you quit, when Hettie graduated from high school and she started to
go into the mill, you said that you wanted her to go on to school or to
go on somewhere? How did you feel about her going into
We just kind of gave her her choice, whatever she wanted to do. I said,
"Hettie, if you want to go to school, we'll try to help you go to
school." But she wanted to go to work down here. She's like me; she's
always stayed at home, mostly. And she's working up yonder at the
hospital now, but
She said that she got laid off after she'd been working there for about thirty years, I think. How did you feel about that?
I'm like everybody else, 'most. I don't feel like that the company's got
this. . . . You see, they leased it from the J. M. Odell Company, and
they put in this here other kind of stuff that they run now. Well, they
don't know how to make it. They've had nobody down there. You see, the
hands here had always run cotton stuff here, and when they started
hiring help they'd lay off the older hands that had been here a long
time and bring some more in, and a lot of them were niggers. And I hate
to say it—maybe I shouldn't say it—but some people are more interested
and learn it and want to do it right, what they're going to do, than
others. You know that. The people that had always worked here, I think,
would have tried much harder to learn what they wanted them to learn
than the ones that they have brought in since then. And Hettie got so
she couldn't wind. She was in a wreck a while after she was married, and
it hurt her back. And she'd been to Duke and got her a brace, and that
had helped her, but she changed jobs. She got so she couldn't wind the
winders that they
What did your son do? I know what Hettie's done. You said he went into the service during World War II, was that?
Claiborne never did work down here. He's been a painter all of his life ever since he got old enough to work.
Did he not want to go into the mill, or did he just like to paint?
I don't know. I never heard him say much against it. He just got to
helping a little some of the painters. Now Layton Herndon, he married my
niece, and one or two more around here are painters. And he got to
helping them a little bit and kind of got onto it. And he helped paint
the houses on the outside here one time. And he just finally got into it
himself, so he's been painting. But he's working at the University now.
He paints some on the side. They're up there after him all the time
What does he do at the University?
I don't know just what he does, but he paints a little, things that need
painting sometimes. And I never have heard him say
But he's continued to live in Bynum?
Yes, he's got his home up here. He worked and he's been mighty saving.
And he always was when he was a little boy growing up. He saved his
money. And he's got a little boy now, and he's right much like him. He
mows yards, and oh, he's got right smart at money, Danny has. Last week
he mowed Mrs. Grassy—we call her Grassy—Gwendolyn Evis out here and
Helen Howard's over yonder has got a big yard, and he mowed the church
yard. They pay him. I think he told me, he says, "Granny, I made twenty
dollars last week." And he's just thrilled to death over it, and he
takes care of it. He
Thank you very much.
END OF INTERVIEW