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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
H-0165, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Jean Cole Hatcher was born in Charlotte, North Carolina, around 1910. Hatcher outlines the ancestry of her family, both sides of which had lived in the area for several generations. She describes her family's farming history and its tradition of valuing education. She briefly focuses on the impact of the Civil War on her family, emphasizing its effect on the education of the women in her family. The majority of the interview focuses on Hatcher's family business, the Cole Manufacturing Company. Just before the turn of the twentieth century, Hatcher's father and uncle procured a patent for their new planting machine. In 1900, they established the Cole Manufacturing Company. Hatcher explains how innovations such as the planting machine revolutionized farming in the South. She describes the development of the company, its major competitors, the nature of skilled work in the company, the role of African American workers, and the company's evolution over the first half of the century. In 1953, Hatcher became president of the company—her first job—and she discusses briefly what it was like to manage the business. In addition, Hatcher describes the development of Charlotte in some detail. Focusing on the rise of Charlotte as an economic center in the South, she stresses the importance of the Southern Railroad and the building of roads to the city's industrial development. Finally, Hatcher describes her own civic volunteer work in Charlotte during the early 1930s. After graduating from Greensboro College in 1931, Hatcher participated in charity work in North Charlotte mill communities until she was married in 1933.
Jean Cole Hatcher became president of Cole Manufacturing Company, her family's business, in 1953. Hatcher describes her family's history in the Piedmont, the establishment and evolution of the Cole Manufacturing Company in the industry of agricultural technology, and she illuminates life in Charlotte, North Carolina—both for workers and as an economic center of industry.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
First of all, something about the Cole family and the McClintock family. What is your understanding about their occupations? Were they farmers? I noticed one article said they had been one of the two oldest families in this area, in Chatham and Randolph counties.
Mm-hm. They were farmers.
You know the scale of what they were doing, or how large their operations at the height, or anything like that? Could they be considered planters, in the sense of having lot of slaves on the plantation?
No, they had slaves, but not a great number of them. From their background standpoint, I have a sister who knows great deal more about it than I do. The farm in Chatham county, where they were born and raised, for a number of years, still is in existence between Pittsboro and Chapel Hill. And is now owned by cousins of ours whose name is Fearrington, F-e-a-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n.
I know that sign, you see it on the road as you go by.
Mm-hm. And the little old burial plot is still there, where great-great grandparents are buried. The Fearringtons eventually ended up mostly doing dairy farming, I believe. Then my grandfather left and went to Carbonton.
Now which one is that? That's the Cole, or—?
That's Cole. Where he had a mill on Deep River. Isn't that Deep River at Carbonton? And I understood, not long ago, that that mill was still standing, on the banks of that river. But I don't know, I haven't been down there to see.
What kind of a mill?
I think it was wool. I'm not sure. I'm vague about all that.
Do you have any idea how many slaves they might have owned? Or were they considered to be sort of a wealthy family in that community?
They were considered well-to-do. But by the time my father and uncle came along—all the children were educated, college educated persons. As far back as we can determine, they were people of education. And substantial, of course, but as far as any great wealth was concerned, or being applied per se—no, I don't think they ever came into that category.
Did you ever hear about their politics before the Civil War? Would it have been Democratic during that time? That's going a good ways back.
My grandmother Cole was a Henley. And I have heard her say that her family were Republicans. Now, whether that was immediately after the War Between the States, or whether they were Republicans prior to that, I don't know. But she died in 1927. Being age seventeen at that point in time, I was not questioning and following up on things that she would tell me about. My memory is terribly vague, I'm sorry to say.
Now, what about the McClintock side of the family?
My mother was a McClintock. My grandfather—that family came
into Chester County, South Carolina, approximately seventeen hundred and
fifty-three.
Now, do you know which way they got to Chester?
Into
Do you know why it was that the McClintocks came over?
They were plain Scotch-Trish Presbyterians that came over for just the
same purpose that all the area of Scotch Presbyterians came from.
Well, that's real interesting. Now, what did they do, the McClintocks?
My grandfather, of course, fought in the Civil War, and he lost an arm at the battle of the crater at Petersburg. And then came back and finished his education at Davidson College. For a time, he and my grandmother were teachers. And then came in from Huntersville, or from where I don't know. They went to Fort Mills, South Carolina, I think, and taught for a while. Then came to Charlotte, and he was a farmer. But he wa also the Superintendent of Education, Mecklenburg County, for a number of years, and was also Chairman of the School Board. I think they call it Chairman of the Education Board, or something. But was School Board Chairman. Then his son, Banks McClintock, followed him as Chairman of the School Board. So we've had a long history of education.
Why do you think that was? On both sides of the family, seems
I never stopped to ask that question. I simply took it as a matter of
fact, or
Well, it was very unusual.
But my father was even president of college, you see, when he decided to come into industry. Both he and my uncle taught for a while.
Now, did the Presbyterian tradition stay in your family, past your grandparents?
It's still in my family. Except for my immediate family, practically all
my aunts and uncles and cousins are still Presbyterians, of the old
First Presbyterian Church here in Charlotte. My mother joined the
Methodist church soon after she married my father. used to think it was
quite a joke, because somebody said to my grandmother, "Janie
certainly is making a grand Methodist!" And my grandmother
said, "Of course. She's got a good Presbyterian
backbone."
Did you ever wonder about the fact that the Presbyterians were so much involved in some of these educational enterprises, and stressed education so much?
Well, actually not much more so than Methodists were. My own college,
Greensboro College, is 1838, and it's the oldest chartered women's
college in the South. Second oldest one in the United States. And we've
got Trinity College in Durham, which is now Duke. So we go back. Seems
that it might be more appropriate to say that
Do you think there are any kind of family stories, or traits that would have been passed along in your family, in some way that connected you with that Scotch-Irish tradition. Did you ever hear that referred to, in any sort of way? Any kind of reference about habits, or behavior, or character?
That has been alluded to and talked about so many times, in so many various ways, that there again, it's almost like the air you breathe. Because your association was with so many people who have similar backgrounds. Similar habits, similar peculiarities, or what have you. That as far as my selecting something that would be outstanding in that area, I couldn't tell you. You're getting me
We'll get back to more factual kind of things. I was just interested in
some of your speculations about these things.
Very definitely.
Could you talk a little bit about—was that something in your family, that you could see a difference?
That would be interesting to see.
And, of course, the coastal area developed earlier than our area
developed, because the sea was the
I might say the eastern Carolinas, now, not just definitely North or South Carolina. And the people in eastern Carolina, they are much more relaxed . . . much more easy social relationship. And that probably stemmed from the cultures of the earlier years, when all the money was in the eastern part of the state, of both states. And they had the big plantations, and the rice fields, and all that sort of thing. And built beautiful low country mansions. Had numerous slaves, and many, many acres of land. And farming leads to a certains amount of relaxation and free time, as versus a nine-to-five or industrial type activity. Does that answer your question?
That sounds good to me. I'm trying to get your interpretations based upon
your
I know this, that I had many eastern Carolina friends, both in prep
school and in college. And when I would visit Wilmongton, or Elizabeth
City, or Charleston, places like that—and Edenton—I
had the time of my life. And was just total
difference, way they lived and the way I lived, here in Charlotte.
That's real interesting.
There was not too much difference in basic education, basic culture,
basic family background, but there was a difference in the momentum, or
the speed, or the manner in which they lived. There wa was more
graciousness in the eastern part of the two states.
Let me ask you this question, which I haven't seen in any of these things that have been written, yet. What was the effect of the Civil War upon the kind of family fortunes, on both sides of the family? Do you know how it affected them?
I never heard that it had any dire effects on them, because they were not planters with vast acreages, you know. They were not in the area where the homes were burned out from under them, and that sort of thing. I know that my grandmother and her sister were in a girl's school in Statesville. They lived in little town of Davidson—well, Huntersville is just a mile from Davidson, or more or less. And Statesville is not very far from there, twenty miles, let's say. They were going to school in Statesville when the War Between the States prohibited them doing that. And they had had uncles and people who had graduated from Davidson College. Those two girls came back, and completed their education at Davidson College during the War Between the States. And did not receive a diploma. They graduated, and it's so noted. I mean, it's recorded. But they couldn't receive diploma from Davidson College, because it was just chartered to educate young gentlemen. So they did not get a diploma. And that's really the biggest effect, as far as effecting their economical circumstances. It surely must have, but how badly it did, I don't know.
The only other story—I have heard a great deal from a great-aunt of mine, who never married. Miss Ann McClintock, who lived in Chester for a number of years, and was living there during the War Between the States. And she remembers when brother Sherman came through. She remembers sitting out in the yard with her voluminous skirts over a barrel of something. Some people say silver, other people say salt and sugar, I don't know. But something that was very precious to them. And they took the horses, but they didn't take what she was sitting on.
And she got very—she could not stand the name
"Sherman." I got a relative, a very close friend of
ours, married a young man in Washington, whose surname was Sherman. And
she brought him out to introduce him to the McClintock family, shortly
after they were married. She walked in, and my Aunt Ann was sitting in
the room, and the name Sherman—she got up; she said, /sniffs/;
and walked out of the room just like that.
Did your great-aunt have that education, too, that you were talking about?
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Was she one of those that went to Davidson?
No, no, that was on the Hunter side, the Davidson. And my grandmother McClintock, who was a Hunter.
I see. Well, that's an interesting little point, too, there. I don't know
if you would agree with it or not, but there does seem
to be a number of women who were, in some ways, better educated, and
after the Civil War there was just no one around then for them to marry,
in some cases. And many of them, then, never did marry.
That's true. I know.
There's a whole large group of those, it seems, that turns up.
Yeah, there were several in our family. I never really stopped to analyze that, but that's what it would be, very likely.
They were just too good for anyone that was around, after the War. Well, let me ask a little bit, then, getting into the history of the Cole brothers.
Now, you recording this, or you got it turned off? You got it back on?
Yes'm. The one that's usually credited with being the inventive character is Eugene—
That's right. That is entirely correct.
Do you have any more insight on how he first began to do this? Why it was him, and not the other brothers, who got interested in this sort of—
I think that it is an inherited trait, in the family, for things mechanical. Which came from my grandmother, who was the Henley. My grandmother Cole, nee Henley. She was very clever about those sort of things. Oh, she was sharp. Very sharp person. Had right much influence on my growing up, I would say.
I think that her influence
Can you remember specifically anything about your grandmother? Her name was Annie?
Mm-hm. Annie Mariah.
Anything that leads you to say this. Any little anecdotes, or stories, that might illustrate that?
Oh, I don't know that I could. For a thing like this—I don't
know. It was more just conversation between a grandmother and a little
girl. `Cause I was seventeen when she died, so I'd had my formative
years really very close to her. And she was an ambitious person, and she
said, "You're going to have this," and,
"You're going to do this," and "You're going
to be that." She was furious because my
mother and father did not want me to go very far away from home to
college. Being Methodist, they chose the little old Greensboro College,
and she was furious because she thought her granddaughter ought to go to
Wellesley and really get a
That's really extraordinary. Can you take it back any further with her, to understand where that might have come from?
Goes back further than my memory would—
It's a very extraordinary family. Well, do you remember any stories about Eugene Cole, maybe as a child, or as a little boy?
Unfortunately -..
Was there anyone else in the family—his father, for
instance—
No, the story I get about his father is that he was a dreamy . . . student . . . Lived in an ivory tower type person, had no practical sense. I think that may lead to my saying that my grandmother was the spark. He got part of his education, as I understand it, in England; read his Testament in Greek. And the most horrible story of the whole kit and caboodle, is the fact that when my father was born-E. A. He was reading poetry written by a Greek poet whose name was Eusebius, E-u-s-e-b-i-u-s. And he was in john, reading his Greek poetry. And the time came to name my poor little baby daddy, and he insisted that he be named Eusebius. And the poem he was reading was called "Adonis." And they named him Eusebius Adonis Cole. And he was never—nobody, to this day, knows his name, except those of us in the family. He was E. A. from then on out.
That's why you say Eugene Macon, and E. A., in the same biography?
The company came here, we actually were chartered in 1900, so I don't
know where you get this 1901 business. And they actually came into
Charlotte, probably ninety-eight or ninety-nine. Getting the thing
started. And he got his original patent in probably ninety-eight or
ninety-nine. When he got out of college and came back home, planting was
very, very crude. There were one or two or three crude planters being
used, but they were not effective. The most ways that things were being
planted was the fact that they would plow the
My uncle, as I said, where his flair came from, or how the idea came to him, I don't know. But I do know that he made the first planter for his father's farm, in their blacksmith shop. They had a blacksmith shop on the farm. And he made the first planters that we used on their farm, in that blacksmith shop. Then people in the neighborhood, in the general area, began to see what was being accomplished by his planters. And he would make one for a friend, and make one for a friend, and maybe loan his, and that sort of thing, until he found out . . . he believed that they were marketable.
The Coles, at that point in time, had no money, period. Evidently. They'd
spent it all on educating the children, or—I don't know why.
But at least they had no capital. Let's put it that way. And, as I say,
my father was president of
And he got in touch with my father, to see if he was interested, and he
was. And they came to Charlotte, and started. I think most of these
histories and stories you'll find where they borrowed money, and
financed it. They were able to attract the top-notch people in the
Could you mention some of the people that backed them?
Yeah. The brother Belks, for instance. Or Mr. B. D. Heath, H-e-a-t-h, whose family is still in Charlotte. They were quite prominent in textiles, and farming, and that sort of thing. And . . . Mr. John M. Scott, who was the founder, and president for a number of years, of the Charlotte National Bank, which is now Wachovia Bank and Trust here in Charlotte. They were early people who bought stock, and put money into the company. 'Course they have all the old minutes, and all that sort of thing, back to those days. And our minutes reflect their presence at the Board meetings, and that kind of thing.
What about D. A. Tompkins, was he a supporter of them? Do you remember him being mentioned then?
I don't believe he came up in any of the histories. They were friends, of
course. But I don't believe he had anything with the company. I think
you might find those things alluded to in that little newspaper account,
I'm not sure.
It seems a bit interesting that E. M. Cole would kind of call upon all of his brothers. In some ways, I don't guess it's unexpected, but it does seem most interesting to note that he tried to involve all of his brothers in this enterprise. Did the different brothers have different kinds of positions, or specialities, within the operation? How did that work out?
It didn't. The one brother who was around the plant the most—he
was never married—was a dreamer like his father, as far as I
Then the other one, E. O., who was a Methodist minister, and did have some stock in the company at one time, and did hit my uncle to death, occupied the chair of the president for about ten years, almost. Had no business ever being president of the company. That's the harsh—is a factual thing to say. Because he was a man who did very many wonderful things, but he was not a proper person to have been president.
The majority of the stock of the company is in a trust. But my sisters and I, we own the majority of the stock, through the trust. And our voice is the one that's heard the most. And we were too young not to—
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Along with daddy and Uncle Gene, came to me, because my uncle had no children. Daddy had three daughters, and I was the one who trotted around on his heels, all over that plant, from the time I could walk, I guess. Because it was within blocks of where we lived, anyway.
And they came and said, "You've got to do something about it.
The company's deteriorating rapidly, and it isn't growing at all. It's
going backwards." And it being a closely held company, and it
never had had a
That was in—
1953. I had been on the Board since 1942, and had been vice-president of
the company. 'Bout many times I started at the top, and worked down to
the bottom,
But you say you had actually, as a child, gone in and—
It was amazing how much I knew about that company, and how much I knew
about planting, and how much I knew about Cole planters that had gotten
to me by osmosis. 'Cause, as I say, I was the oldest child, and just
trotted around on my father's heels all my life. And I had gone down
there so much that I knew. And I'd go down there when they would get out
direct mail advertising, when they'd put me up on a high stool, and I'd
stuff envelopes. And got paid a penny an envelope. Was the only job I
had before I got to be president.
Your other sisters, would they follow around as much as you?
Never did. And they still, through all the years, were never interested
in the plant. They both have served on the board of
Well, maybe you could say a little bit about some of your early memories about growing up around here, and going to school. Where you went to elementary school, a few things like that.
I went to a private school in Charlotte, which was run by Miss Harriet Orr, who, incidentally, is still living. I'll be seventy in October, and she was my first-grade teacher when I started to school.
What was the name of that little school?
Unless it was called Harriet Orr's School, I don't know.
Who else would have been there? How large of a class—
Everybody I knew in Charlotte was there, seemed like.
Why did you go in that direction? Stay within the state, and go to school?
Why?
Yes. Was there any talk, ever, by your mother or father, about what they wanted you to do or be? Did they want you to have an occupation as opposed to being married, and not having one?
No, I think it was absolutely assumed in those days that
What were your own early thoughts about that? Did you have any visions of what you might want to do?
No, I sort of liked the general philosophy that they had. It seemed to
fit my energies and personality.
Let me get back and ask a few more questions about the operation of the Cole Manufacturing Company. Do you remember who the competition was, when the company first started up. Would there have been other Southern companies? Would most of these machines been coming in from out of the South, or were there just not any other machines like them?
There weren't any other machines like it. Oh, there any number of
machines which had been developed, for agricultural purposes. The
McCormack
So, as far as competition was concerned, we had a great deal of problems along the way, a good many times. One of our biggest competitors was Covington Company, which was in Dothan, I guess.
This is before World War II?
Yeah. But they purely copied. They had started out being farmers. In those days, all of our equipment, of course, then, was animal drawn. They were dealers who sold for Cole Manufacturing Company, and they proceeded to copy Cole planter, and market it. And, to this day, what Covington planters are found around, and they can still put Cole seed plate in it, and it'll work. And there were a good number of suits about people who infringed on the patents. Of course, the patents, until more recent ones, have long since worn out.
But we had competition, of course. But, I can't remember it ever worrying us, other than just keeping us on our toes, and making us probably a little more alert, and a little more alive, and a little more aggressive. I think competition is the life of business, anyway.
As back as far as you know about, the teens or twenties or thrities, or you've heard tell of—how did the market develop? Was it first a North and South Carolina Market, or was it a whole South? Were there other parts of the country?
You mean for Cole Manufacturing Company? It was the thirteen original states, really. I mean, the Southeast.
So you-all were sending things North, and Northeast?
Not in the early days, no. In the early days, I said Southeast.
I see.
Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida. The bulk of our business was in the southeastern part of the United States. Then it stretched up. Then it went west to Texas. Pretty well all over, now.
Did you-all ship rail, in those early days?
Mm-hm.
And did they change over to truck, later on? Or how did the shipping develop?
It changed over to truck, but not until way after World War II. We had our own railroad siding to receive our raw materials, and to ship. And warehousing was no problem, in those early days, prior to World War II, let's put it that way. Because tractor planting, as such, did not really come into being a force until World War II was over. It was beginning to burgeon, but it didn't come into its own until after the World War II.
Everything we make now is designed to be drawn by any tractor which is built, by mounting what we manufacture onto a tool bar type thing. And then having the device that is properly fitted to whatever kind of linkage the tractor has itself. So we don't build anything that has a motor in it. We sell our goods through tractor dealers. All of 'em.
Let's say—again, trying to draw a line about World War II, about 1940—what would have been the variety of things that the company would have made in 1940? Would it have just been planters, or would there have been—
Well,
Ok. And those were all, that were made. Would there have been
There would have been other items that were accessories to the planter, or the fertilizer distributor. That adapted 'em to different soils. I don't know how much you know about farming.
Not a lot.
But, in certain soils—well, you have Alabama soil, where you got your blackstrap. All it does, on certain types of wheels—you know how sticky and bad it is—it would just build up mud wheels. And you finally had no traction, nor nothing. And using opening plow devices, if you'd used an ordinary plow, you'd just build up—so you have to have a disk, which is just a round sharp-edged thing, that would cut through that, rather than push through it. You had to develop certain devices to adapt your planter to the type of soil in which it was being used. So we did manufacture those, yes.
That's helpful. You mentioned earlier, or kind of suggested, that, by comparing International Harvester, that they were really dealing with a different scale of farming, perhaps, than you-all.
Right. Well, here's the thing. There are two divisions in agricultural manufacturing. One is called the short line, the other one is called the long line. The long line would be John Deere, International Harvester, Ford, J. R. Case. The ones who build tractors, motorized equipment. Then they build harvesting equipment, planting equipment, highway equipment, as far as that's concerned—big equipment. In other words, their line is a long line of variety of things.
The short line manufacturers are people who specialize in their one
field. Our speciality is planting and fertilizing. You got other
Were there any other companies like what you call the short line manufacturers in the Piedmont, before World War II, that you can think of? In the Carolinas?
Oh, yeah. Long Manufacturing Company in Tarboro. There was a company in Sanford who built planters, and I can't think of their name at the moment. There was a company inSuffolk, Virginia—Ferguson—who built planters. Several manufacturing plants in Georgia, and Covington, and Alabama. But you're sort of taxing my memory, now, and not making me probably be as factual as I should be.
And we have an organization called the Southern Farm Equipment Manufacturer's Association, which is an arm of Farm Equipment Manufacturer's Association, a national organization. And they've got numerous companies in it, throughout your Southeast.
Let me return a little bit more to your own biography. Now, you mentioned going to Miss Orr's, I think it was, to school, and then off to this school that's no longer—
Davenport, which was a preparatory school. And then Greensboro College.
Now, after you finished there, what did you do?
I came home, and did volunteer civic work, and traveled. Graduated in 1931, got married in 1933.
What kind of groups did you get involved with in the voluntary
Gracious Moses, I was chairman of the . . . oh, now you talking about the thirties, I'm coming up a little beyond that. You remember, those were the Depression days? And I worked a lot with what was then called—I think in those days it was called Associated Charities. You went around with a case worker, and did things, and held classes. The mills were not operating, there was just poverty spread all over the place.
Did you go into some of the mill communities, then?
Oh, yes.
Which communities? Some in North Charlotte?
North Charlotte would be the community. That was the mill community.
Well, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, since we've interviewed a number of people who used to work in the mills, in north Charlotte. What, exactly, would you-all do there?
Well, the person I went with the most there was a Deaconess. The
Methodists had two Deaconesses here. You know, I can't remember the name
of what their organization was, but it was under the auspices of the
Methodist church. And they worked, just purely trying to see that people
had something to eat; trying to educate them about health; we had
classes for the children to teach them to sew, to knit, to read.
Do you remember there being any kind of nutritional programs?
Oh, that was part of it, yes. I did not deal with them directly because I
was not skilled or versed in that sort of thing, but there were cooking
classes, and nutritional things. And the mill owners
They would support you?
They were supportive, very supportive. And, in fact, the Johnson's built a YMCA building out in north Charlotte, which is still—
Yes, I've been there. Now, how long w re you involved with that?
Oh, off and on, for the two years between college and getting married.
Did you teach some of these classes yourself?
Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
Can you remember any of that? What that was like, or what your impressions of people who lived in those communities was?
No, it's rather hard for me to jell that, because I graduated from college when I was twenty. And I was anything but dry behind the ears. All I can remember is just the compassion that you felt for other human beings, and how much they responded. Always made you feel like you were doing something that was worth something to them. But as far as having any real jelled ideas, I was not mature enough to do it. 'Cause a twenty year old now is whole lot sophisticated, more mature, than a twenty year old in 1930 was.
Was there any sense that you got about the mill workers' own feeling about their plight? Were they angry at anyone, or did they—
I never encountered anybody who was angry. They accepted it. Not happily,
of course. But, as far as I can remember, in our area, they had always
fared well, at the hands of our mill owners, mill
Well, there's very few that are still owned by the company.
By the company.
And it's pretty hard to find them here in Charlotte, or to realize that it was once a textile center.
Well, lot of those houses are still standing in north Charlotte, but they're no longer owned by the mills.
One story I think that probably would not be a very good one to go on the
record, that I remember most, was this woman that we visited with
regularity. (Miss Bame was the deaconess' name.) And had a number of
children, five or six or seven, or something like that. We went there
one day, for what purpose I don't know, whether it was taking food, or
going because somebody was sick. But I can remember this little old
maid, Miss Bame, saying, "So-and-so, you're going to have
another baby!" And the woman kind of hung her haad for a
minute, and then all of a sudden she jerked it up, with a little bit of
indignity. She said, "Listen, Miss Bame, we're not on but two
days a week in the mills—or three days a week,
whatever—and we haven't got any money. We don't even have any
money to go to a picture show! I can't deny my husband every
pleasure!"
That's an important story, to me. Well, was there any effort at that time—pursuing this a little bit—to teach anything about birth control methods, for instance, to folks in the—
Not that I had anything to do with.
Did you ever hear about that being done?
No. No, I don't think it was. Don't really think it was. In fact, it was
not . . . well, as far as I know, the methods of today weren't, when I was married.
In some cases, we've talked of some different mill communities, and now and then people who live in mill communities remember themselves being called "lint heads." A class feeling coming across between the people who lived downtown, or in the city, and those who lived in the mill?
I never came against that. Now, I know that that existed, having read widely and seen it. I know that, over towards Gastonia, and that area, there was more unrest, there was more feeling there than— It could have been here in Charlotte, but I did not come into it. And I don't remember running across anybody, that I ever heard, talk disparagingly about people who lived in mill villages. They were accepted as being there. Now, as I say, I don't remember ever, in a group or conversation with anybody, doing something or saying something detrimental about these people. That was just that. Could have been going on, I just didn't get into the areas where it was being discussed, or being done. I don't know.
Well, that gets us in to about 1931, or to thirty-three, or so. And then
you were married in thirty-three. Could you say a little bit
Well, I met him through friends who, for about a year, while I was still in college, kept sending out a very nice young man coming to Charlotte they'd like for me to meet. And I kept on talking about I was engaged to somebody else, who at that time was an Oxford scholar in England—or Rhodes scholar at Oxford, I'll get it right in a minute. And I kept saying, "I wish they'd stop telling me `bout that Hatcher man, and not ever producing him." And finally . . . are we recording this?
Yes'm. This is an important part of the story.
And the people who had been talking to me about what an attractive,
charming person Reuben Hatcher was, were there. The husband said,
"You mean that's Jean Cole? Is that the girl you been talking
about Hatch meeting, all this time?" She said,
"Yes." He said, "Well, I'll be [whispers]
god-damned." He said, "Well, you pointed her out
across church to me, and that's not who I looked at." So it was
not long, that summer, until I met Mr. Hatcher.
It seems that every time Mr.
Well, how long did you-all date, before you married?
Well, that was late in the summer . . . I graduated in 1931. That was in the fall of 1932, and we were married in December, 1933. So approximately a year, I would say. Little over a year.
What was his background? What did he do?
He was a traveling salesman. Sold funeral supplies for the
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[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
—Central and South America. Japan. They're trying to go to tractors, as hard as they can. A year ago, when I was in Japan, I saw plenty of bullocks doing work in the fields.
Well, this would be a
You want to take that? If we've got to go to the Ivey's, let's go. `Cause
they close at four-thirty. And if you want to leave things here, and
pick `em back up, when we come back, why it'd be perfectly—
I could ask you another thing or two. I noticed that it was your father
who was president, once, of the Chamber of Commerce here in
I must say, between 1920 and 1927, but I'm not positive. It was pretty close to the World War years, actually. World War I. But I'm going to say about 1920. But I may be wrong about that. I mean, it may have been a little earlier than that.
There are a lot of people I'd like to ask you about in terms of—
Well, go ahead.
Thank you. Not sure how to get it all together. There were a number of people involved in Charlotte, back then, who were significant people in the whole South. Did you ever know, or hear tell, or your father know, Stuart Cramer?
I knew both Stuart Cramer, Sr., Stuart Cramer, Jr., and I know the first Mr. Cramer's grandson, John Scott Cramer, who is now president of Wachovia Bank and Trust. Or one of the big head officers, in Winston-Salem. Quite well. Knew all of `em.
The Cole brothers, would they have had anything to do with Mr. Stuart Cramer, in any—
No business other than civically, and socially.
Who would be some of the people that you would think would have been most important, in kind of shaping the direction that Charlotte was going to go? Or active in the city during the time, say, when your father was president of the Chamber of Commerce?
Did you go to school with some of these women in the families, or along the way?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So you would have some friends in those families who'd go back
Yeah. I know. Julia Morrison Harris, whose father was Governor Cameron
Morrison, is still living, and a friend of mine. She lives here in
Charlotte. He was, of course, a lawyer for a number of years, so he got
into politics. And came to Charlotte from, I believe, Rockingham, or
somewhere in that general area. When, I don't know, because he was
governot in about 1920 or twenty-seven, something or other./
See what other families—I haven't named all of them yet.
real estate, and farmlands. This was all farmland that was owned by the Myers family. They're nearly all, what's left of them, now in real estate.
There was Stephens—?
Well, Stephens was son-in-law. George Stephens married a Myers, so he was the man who did the developing.
Did you ever know some of those people who were doing the developing? Like Nolan, who came down to draw the plans, and Earl Draper, did you know—?
I knew Earl Draper. I don't remember Nolan; and I have met him, but don't remember. I knew Earl Draper, very pleasant.
Then, in the banking end of it, we've got John Scott, whom I mentioned.
And, of course, he is also a grandfather of Scott Cramer. His
mother's—
It seems like Charlotte developed more banking and financial institutions than other parts of the state, maybe with the exception of Winston-Salem.
Winston-Salem.
Why would that have been so? Do you have any idea?
I was asking about the reason why Charolotte developed as it did.
Oh! We were on the main line of SouthernRailroad; number one. Which made us overnight from New York, which was the financial center of this country, at any rate, if not the world, at that time. And we had more central, better, railroad facilities. I think that's the only—I think that's the reason that they point to the Piedmont Crescent. Which was conducive to the fact that Greenville, Spartanburg, Charlotte—well, you start in Atlanta, really, you know, and come up, on your main line of Southern Railroad.
Now, what about when Morrison was governor? One of the things he's known for is the road building.
Highways, mm-hm.
Could that have contributed, then, to Charlotte's—
It did. And it caused Charlotte to become a very, very large trucking center. I've forgotten now whether we're next to Chicago, or Atlanta, or what. But we're supposed to be a tremendously big trucking center.
I just wondered, because Morrison lived here in Charlotte a while, if that had anything to do with him pursuing the road building idea more. Charlotte benefitting perhaps more, this Piedmont area.
I can't say whether Charlotte benefitted more, or not. I don't know. I don't know the history of it all. But I always assumed, and I think everybody else has assumed, that it was a statewide thing; that he was a man who simply believed in good roads.
What was the effect of the Depression upon the Cole Manufacturing Company?
We went through very, very interesting times during that period. We never closed the plant. We never laid off men. We had to curtail hours, and curtail days, but never fully closed. The idea being to equalize the work burden, and give everybody in the plant work to do. And a livelihood, such as it was.
I wonder, how many folks you-all had working for you, during that time?
I could look it up, but I don't know. Very many interesting things we
did. The price of cotton, of course, went down to the bottom. And people
still were having to plant, because food and fiber had to be produced.
And people who were into farming had to keep on farming.
Another device that we used, one he used very early in the days of
selling. And he used it again during the Depression. Was taking notes
from dealers, in little
/Commenting on view from car/ Now, Cole property begins where we are now. We've got a lot of it leased out to various things. But we're all line over here. Just in a minute, you'll see our foundry, which is one of the most modern, automated, foundries in the South. There's part of it, rising up right there. We've always had our own foundry.
Yes, I was wondering about that.
It's the most fascinating part of the whole
operation.
Did you learn all of the chemistry of that process?
No. I know it. I can listen intelligently to foundry men talking, and I know what they're talking about. But as far as actually being able to go, and telling somebody what to do to make a casting—no.
Are any of the folks who work in the foundry here belonging to various unions
No, we're not unionized. We have had a union election, but
—Assembling drive wheel assemblies, or assembling the seed
plate businesses. But he brings to conclusion a finished product. In
other words, if he's a hopper man, he's got to be sure that the gears
and sprockets are all working, and in order, and that he's put the
proper seed plate equipment to go with it. And he finishes a hopper. He
doesn't put the seed plate in, and pass that hopper on to another man to
do something else. He does it. Therefore, he gets the
satisfaction, and has a pride in having done, totally, a thing.
Instead of the assembly line concept, just sitting there putting
Then another thing that was innovative, that is followed now in a great
many places—another time that I spoke to an enormous audience
in Washington—was the fact that we are, primarily, a seasonal
business. We do not have a twelve months turnover period. We have a
selling season; a booking season for our products. And then our retail
outlets have their selling season from January one, until planting time,
when farmers are getting their equipment ready for field, and ready to
get back out and do their planting. So we told our men, as they were
approaching charm.
And, then, not nearly all of them, but a great majority of them live out in the county. Lot of them have small farms, and large gardens, and that sort of thing. When we need them is from January one until about April one, or May one. Some as early as December. That's the winter months where they can't be fishing, they can't be gardening, they can't be planting, they can't be doing anything. So they can come back, with all their know-how and skills, when we need extra labor. And it's a tremendous asset to us, and a great satisfaction to them.
That's the thing.
As I say, it is being used, now, in companies that can use it. Not every company can use it.
Well, what about the notice you have, that photograph of Black foundry workers? How early were there Blacks working in the company?
From the beginning.
What were their jobs, as compared to the white workers? Were they different?
They were all over the plant—no. No. There was a preponderance, of course, of Black labor in the foundry. And the old, old system in foundries was that you had a molder, who was a skilled molder. And the man has to be skilled, and he's got to know about his metal heat, and how to pour, and all that sort of thing. How to make his molds. And he had a Negro, who was called a "helper." So each molder had a helper. If we had fifty molders down there, we had fifty helpers. Those helpers were invariably—almost always—Black.
And as time went on, and as attrition was the main thing, those helpers
became skilled. When attrition, health, or age would cause one of our
skilled molders to retire,
Then, we've had a high percentage of Black labor all through the plant, all through the years.
The molders' jobs were the highest skilled of all the jobs. /About the machinery/ That'd be the conveyor, going . . .
Therefore, according to your way of thinking, probably you would say was the most skilled.
Would there have been differences in pay, for all of these different occupational . . .
No.
Well, what about back in the twenties and thirties? Could you guess at that?
I see. Do you know of any significant number of people who have worked for the Cole Manufacturing Company, back in the early days, who would have been brought here because of their special skills, or from another part of the country, or—
No. No.
It's always been people who were, essentially, local.
Until the last ten years, yeah.
That's interesting.
Uh-uh.
They hired foundrymen, and people who did know that, but they didn't really do it themselves.
You know, I can't tell you whether they got experienced men, or whether they got somebody to learn by their bootstraps, or not. I'm going to go with the fact that I think they learned by their bootstraps.
They must have, originally, hired a couple or a few, some experienced people from somewhere, either here or somewhere else.