© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
H-0190, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Ann Mack Barbee's family lived as sharecroppers in South Carolina for much of her childhood. Barbee describes her parents' values and how they passed those along to their children. She relates how her life changed following her mother's death as she assumed greater responsibility in the household. When Barbee was an adolescent, the family decided to leave the countryside and go to Durham to work in the factories.
In Durham, Barbee went to work in the Liggett & Myers tobacco factories. The overall environment of the tobacco factories harmed the women's health, but Barbee explains how segregation and racism worsened conditions even further. She lists the reasons she did not strongly support the unions and then reflects on the many differences race made in her life, even affecting the color of uniform she wore. Using an illustration from her own work experience, Barbee insists that African American women must learn to stand for themselves, refusing to give up their rights even when the white men in authority demand it.
Because her father feared that she would be sexually assaulted on the walk to and from school, he forced Barbee to quit school before she wanted to do so. She describes how she tried to continue her own education even after she stopped attending classes. She reflects on the opportunities African American children had to further their education and the pressure they felt to succeed.
Barbee did not marry until she was in her early forties; she bore a daughter, Louise, a short time later. She describes how being an older mother made her a different parent and explains her basic parenting philosophies.
Annie Mack Barbee describes her life as a worker in the segregated Liggett & Myers tobacco factories, and discusses how gender, class and race affected her life and the choices she made.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
What is your complete name?
Annie Mack Barbee.
And where were you born?
Manning, South Carolina.
What is your father's name?
Necoda Mack—what you got on there? (Person answers: Charlie) Charlie N. Mack.
And he was born when, do you know? I think he told me October the fourth, 1860.
Eighteen ninety or 1860. How old did he say he was?
Let's see, he said he was almost eighty-nine years old.
Eighty-nine. That would be what
You said you were born where?
Manning, South Carolina.
Now your granddaddy told me that he was a tobacco worker. What is the impression of your father when you were growing up?
He was a good provider and he was very, very strict.
What do you mean by strict?
Well, had to go to church three times a day. If you didn't go
and wanted to go somewhere in the afternoon and you was sick that
morning, you couldn't go out that evening. You just had to
stay sick all day long regardless of how you felt about it. And the
church was a must. You had the family prayer on Sunday morning, read the
bible. Everybody say bible for instance, before you could eat. That was
a must. And when you had company at night, nine o'clock was
the limit. They had to go home regardless. And when you went out you had
a certain hour to come in. Eleven o'clock. Well it was all
right providing where you were going, to
Okay, let me get some more background before we move into the factory. So
Of the family—he was. And he was the backbone of the family when he and Janet was living together.
That was his second wife.
Janet Mack, yeah, that was his second wife. Yeah, let's get back to momma, that's where I'm going to go back if you don't mind. To my real mother.
Annie.
Well, I can vaguely remember some of my childhood with her before we came
to Durham. I can remember her cooking little johnnycakes and little
colored things. Hanging 'em in a little flour sack behind the
door in the kitchen. And somebody came through Manning selling these
large bible story books, where you read stories out of it, to children,
and had pictures, you know. And the one that answered the most
questions—she'd have a question period after
she'd read the story. And the one that answered the most
questions would get the most cookies. I can remember a whole lot of my
childhood with her at that particular time, because she
wasn't sick. And it was a very happy childhood, very happy.
She was a humble type of person. I've never heard her curse.
She'd get angry but the anger that she got, you
couldn't tell it because she didn't use any kind
of bad words or nothing. And her voice never would get real loud. She
was very humble. She was a humble type of person. Very, unusually
humble. And she gave us principles to go by which I can remember so
well.
I know in my interview with granddaddy he mentioned that she graduated from high school in 1911.
She did.
So was she a force in your life that pushed you toward trying to gain a type of knowledge in reference to education?
Oh yes, beyond a reasonable doubt. Oh yes, beyond a reasonable doubt. Oh yeah, she was.
Now let me see, her background was what again?
Her mother and father were—well I won't say they were wealthy, 'cause when you say wealthy I don't know how you say whether it consists of how much they own or how rich they were. I'll just say they were well to do. They lived well. And they owned a lot of land then. She didn't know what it was to get out and work like other farmers in the area—their daughters. 'Cause her mother and father had a plenty.
Well do you recall any instances of her feeling sort of downtrodden basically, since she was living in a type of, I would say middle class or well to do family, and then she became granddaddy's wife and of course things weren't as good as it was living with her parents. Were there any times in which she really felt very sad, or just felt completely upset because of this movement from …
Oh, I get the picture now. Because of the environment that she came out of, the one that she went in when she married. I get the picture very clearly. Well by me being so young, it's hard for me to define that. But I do know that she stayed sick a lot, you know, kind of stayed sick a lot. But by me being a child I don't know how deeply rooted it was, or what it came from or nothing. But I do know she kept it hid from us. She was very jolly with us, very happy, seemly so. And when we came to Durham after Polly, my baby sister was born, then she really was sick. She wasn't well at all. She was sick, but she just held up, you know, because of us I imagine.
Okay, she seemed to be a very strong and loving mother. How would you describe her?
We don't have any of that humbleness from her. Some of us
don't. Laura may have it. She was a meek and humble person.
When I say meek, no outbursts, you know where you just rare up and pitch
a fit and go to pieces. We didn't get that from her. Now
I'll pitch a fit in a minute.
What about her physical features?
She was a kind of low brown skinned woman with a round face.
I'm trying to think who in the family favors her. Her face is
very round, and she was little. Long black hair that hung down her back.
She could sit on her hair, and we used to play with it. So I think
she'd taken that after her mother—Indian blood.
She had some Indian blood in her. Brown skinned. I wouldn't
say she was pretty, I wouldn't call her pretty. But her
features—she had nice features, you know, her facial
features.
Did she ever recall her parents. I know you said they were sort of well to do. Do you know the name of her parents—they were probably Miller's since she was Annie Miller.
Yeah, her mother was named Hester Miller. I don't know, I have to ask granddaddy what her daddy was named. We didn't never see him.
Oh, you only saw the mother.
Yeah. We saw a picture of him in her living room. She had a nice living room and I asked her who that old man is. She told me one day, 'cause I didn't know who he was. And I'd go in there unbeknown to them and stand up and look at that picture, and I said, they called him Uncle Doc or poppa. I don't know whether he knows his real name or not. But they called him Uncle Doc—that's what they called him. Doc Miller. But I know he must have—I'm quite sure he had a name.
Do you know how they acquired their land? Do you have any idea?
No I sure don't.
That was very unusual for a black family to have such a large amount—how much land do you think they had?
Well, as near as I can remember, they owned that whole area. I
don't know whether you go by acres of
land—surrounding the house. I can see that old house now. And
he could have had more. Yes, wait a minute. I can't tell you
how they acquired the land, because when your grandmother came to
Durham, her brother—they called Richard
Miller—bought her part out from the home place and gave her
some money. She was getting ready to come here to your granddaddy. So it
must have been
Yeah.
Over the property although Richard was the executive over the entire
thing. And see by him being the oldest son, they helped grandmomma carry
on. And somehow or another they fell out, they couldn't make
it. And he took his part and went and built him a store beyond where she
lived. And that's where he was living when he married. When
he married after grandma died, he married again, then he went back to
the home place. I don't know how he got back there, I
don't whether he was in business or what. But
that's where he died at, the home. place. So his son now owns
the home place. It's a kind of tangled up. I was a child, I
didn't know too much about it. But you know when you put one
child over something that they don't mean to do right,
they'll mess up. You have to be careful, who you put over it.
But it must've been quite a bit, 'cause granddaddy
figured grandmomma couldn't handle it so he fixed it up so
that if he died Uncle Richard could help her carry on. And so, somehow
or another, along the line they couldn't make it. So she just
went downtown and gave him his part and he just went on about his
business. But I remember my mother, she was supposed to be coming to
Durham the next day. And he met her beyond the fence and when she came
back she had a whole lot of money rolled up in her hand. I've
never known why he gave her that money. She said, I saw your uncle.
But it was a large house, very large. Along then, they'd have the porch here, go all the way around the house. Something like these old—the ranch houses are something like 'em now. Only thing the ranch houses are not up. The ranch houses—you know the ranch houses. Start here with a porch and go all the way around. You'd walk from the living room—from her bedroom, all the way down, clean down a long lane, to the kitchen. Large house. But it wasn't a two story. Compared to the houses now, I wouldn't have it, the way it was built, you know.
But it seems beautiful.
Yeah. It was a nice, very nice house. With rooms going to bed.
You'd never go outdoors—if you come from her
bedroom, by the living room. You start—here's her
bedroom, come right on out down the
Let's see, what year are we probably talking about. What, nineteen hundreds?
Yup. Nineteen hundreds. My father came here in '22, he said. I can't remember the year he came here. It must've been 01900.
Okay, so that means that everybody was brought up on the farm.
Yeah.
And I think, in granddaddy's interview, the farm was not owned by the family, but it was rented from a landlord.
Well now, when he died he owned the house.
Who was that, granddaddy? I didn't know that.
Probably didn't go into the details about that. He
can't remember. That's why I have
to—I'm glad you… Property from this old
man, Mr. Dick Tilson, for years and years. Granddaddy did—my
grandfather. Well he fixes up in his will—he
didn't die but he gave it
So granddaddy owned his own—because his father gave him the land. Is that what you're saying?
No, I'm talking about his father owned the house.
Okay, his father. That's Charlie …
Mack.
Franklin Mack.
Charlie Franklin Mack. He owned his own house and about a acre of land. When we left here and went to him, that's where he was at and that's where he died at.
Now where did granddaddy and Annie stay?
Out in the country on a rented—I can see that house now, Out way in the country on a rented farm. And then when he came to Durham she went to her mother's with us, and stayed there 'till he sent for her. With her mother.
Oh I see. So that meant that granddaddy never owned any land at all, he only rented.
Only rented, he never owned no land. No, no, no.
Now what happened to the house and the land that Charlie Franklin Mack had?
Okay. When he got so sick, our Aunt Bessie took him, Aunt Maggie took momma—grandmother. And when they died, Uncle Robert—that's your uncle—came up here and got Mr. O'Kelly. You don't know nothing about him, your mother and father knew him. To notorize some papers and they sold the house to pay for their burial.
Oh, so they sold the house and the land.
They sold the house, yeah. Sold the house and the land to pay for their burial expenses. And everybody had to sign it. All the heirs had to sign to get this money to pay for both of their burial experiences. And one couldn't do it without the other. So Uncle Robert came here for poppa to do it, 'cause he was living at that time. So he came here and poppa had to put his signature on it and Aunt Bessie and Aunt Maggie had to. Maybe the doctor bills, what have you—those two sisters had to use the money from the sale of this land to pay for their burial and what doctor bills that may have accumulated during that time. So they were staying—one was staying with one daughter and one was staying with the other daughter, and that's where they died at. And both of 'em—one of 'em was a widow. Her husband had died years ago. So that's the only way they could get any money to pay for the burial expenses, what have you. So they sold it. I don't know who they sold it to, but they sold that house. And the land.
Okay, while growing up on the farm, the immediate white contact was the landlord. And what type of person was he, was he a good person to work for?
I don't know nothing about him.
You were very young.
Very young, I can't remember. But I do know when the bo
weevils came through—they probably have already told you. The
mule died. And what else died. And he was supposed to come and get the
mule, and I got a first cousing—he's dead
now—Joe. That's my oldest aunts' son.
And Joe would come over there and help ma. He'd come over
there every Saturday night. And boil peanuts. He'd boil
peanuts in a iron kettle. And Joe would come over and help her do little
things around the house until it was time for us to move from the farm
to her home, that left my grandmomma. Getting ready to come to Durham,
but before that Joe would come over there every Saturday night. Now I
remember him telling my mother, he said if old McFadden come here and
bothering you let me know, 'cause if you ain't
going to—he cursed, I won't say the curse
word—he won't find nothing here. Momma said, well
the mule is sick. He said, let the so and so die. He said, I
won't bury him 'till McFadden come here. But sure
enough the mule died so McFadden—I can remember seeing him,
but I don't know him—he came with that old mule.
And Joe said, the so and so out there
And so Mr. McFadden did allow the family to leave without paying off what …
Yeah, 'cause Joe—you see, Joe, my cousing, they had
some words. And I don't know what their words were exactly
but I know, knowing Joe, told him he couldn't get nothing if
she didn't have it. Or something like that. I was small then.
And so, everything he could find he would take it to his
daddy's. You know, little tools around the house and the plow
and all that. He'd take that stuff and carry it to his
father, before my mother left. So the man really didn't have
anything to go there and get but a empty house, and Joe saw to that.
That's her nephew on my daddy's side. And so we
left, and went on to her mother's. And they had to crate the
stuff to bring it to Durham. And every time they'd crate
something, the man at the freight station would tell Joe it was wrong.
So Joe crated three times, I do remember that. Peanuts and peas and
we'd put it in crates, stuff that the man was supposed to get
and Joe wouldn't let him get it. The last time Joe went down
to the station, the freight station, he told Joe it wasn't
right. And Joe said, I did everything you told me to do. He said if this
is not right—and I won't say the curse
word—and he grabbed the man. And a man that knew my uncle,
which was Joe's father, went and told Uncle Buddy to send Uly
down to the freight station because Joe was fixing to kill that white
man. So Uly got on the car and went on down there, and when he
It's 01900's and they're talking about, you're white.
Yeah.
It must have been a very reputable family.
They was. Because here's why I say. You see, Uly was know all over Manning and surrounding country—towns rather. Because he had the only black mechanic shop.
Oh.
There's a connection there. Anything got wrong with your car,
unless you wanted to take it to Sumter or somewhere, you had to go to
him. Nowhere else to go. You had no choice, you had to go to him. And
they knew, he knew what he was doing. He went to school for it. So
whenever he spoke, he was heard. 'Cause if a man said,
(nonsense), he said, no sir, you're going to put it on there.
And he'd better get to Durham safe. Joe had to crate this
stuff three times, and each time he sent it back. He said, now,
it's not going back. It's not, and if
Do you recall what school did he go to to acquire this skill?
Somewhere in Missouri, I don't know. Yeah, it was in the state
of Missouri, 'cause that's how he got acquainted
with your cousin Susan. He'd go to school with her on his
vacation or spring breaks or whatever you might call
it—he'd go over to Ohio State with his uncle. See
he'd go over there and stay with Susan then. Now
that's how they—he was the first one in the family
was known to that family. 'Cause none of 'em, they
won't own him. They'd been knowing him for years
when they were growing up, because he'd visit them. And go to
Uncle Arthur and stay, and work around there in Ohio, and then in the
fall he'd go back to school. Yeah, he was the only mechanic
anywhere in that town.
Were there any other black businesses that you can recall of?
Yeah, oh yeah. Black doctors. Doctor Whitney, Doctor Brown, and I think they have some kind of printing something. Della White's father. But I can't recall no store being run by—oh yes they did. Aunt Allen and them ran a store. They sure did. 'Cause Uly built a store right there adjoined to the house as something for her to do, and he helped her. Yeah, she ran a store for awhile but she got so old, he had to do away with it. Yeah, she ran a store. See people'd come to have their cars fixed, and he could see to make a business.
Right.
Buy loaves of bread and drinks and popcorn and ice cream and all of that. And when he'd work on the cars they'd go in the store, you know, and get something or another—refreshments. Yeah, they ran a little store, it wasn't a large one. Kind of a small place. Something like these little places we got around here. I'm trying to remember about the other black businesses, if I can remember. Manning was so small. I don't remember no store, no dry good stores, I mean. Clothing stores—I don't remember any of those. I know we did have a black doctor, Dr. Brown. Of course you know, you had more than one white one. But I remember him. He was the only black doctor there. And Stella White's father—I don't know what he was. I don't know whether he ran a printing shop. If he did, it had something to do with the Household of Ruth, that's something for women. That's a old organization for women—Household of Ruth. He had something to do with that.
Was it a type of what?
Something like the Masons and Elks, something on that order. It's the oldest one I can remember, the household Now that's the oldest—all these others came up later. I can remember that Household of Ruth when I was a child. And it's still active. It's active here in Durham. I don't know how strong it is, but it's still active.
Okay, let's go back to you know. I think I've got a substantial amoung of information in reference to the family background. Now, how old are you?
Sixty-six.
Okay, and you went to—in regard to education, what grade did you go to?
Seventh. I hate it, but that's where I stopped at.
Okay, so that means on the farm you went to school.
Oh yes.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
It got so dangerous. He would let us stay with his mother in town.
What do you mean by dangerous?
Walking on the highway, you know, people picking up girls and things. We had to walk so far.
Was there a lot of assaults against women in this time period?
Maybe not. But he didn't trust 'em. Especially on white picks. You know, old white men riding down the highway and stuff.
Were they known for stopping women?
Well, he said they was. So he said it was too far for us to walk and he
didn't have no way to carry us back and forth every morning
So the school was in town.
Yes, lord, right in her back door. Oh let me see, how far was that school from grandmomma and them. About as far as from here to Miss Jones. Go right through their back gate and there's the school.
So did you have a black teacher or a white teacher?
Oh yeah.
You had a black?
Black, all black.
Oh.
Though, I shouldn't say it, but I always—not so much as I did in my early years—I've always regretted that I didn't continue some type of education, you know, after. Even though, although working in the factory—it's no excuse. I could've gone and gone to school at night. I can remember every teacher I had mostly. Miss Reynolds, she was one of 'em. I'm going to tell you something about the school now. I can remember more about after poppa let us go back home to his mother and father. I can remember more of that school period than I did in the beginning, the earlier time when they both were living. This part, after mother died, and we went back to live with his mother and father, now that part …
What year was that about?
Oh, she died in twenty-five, twenty-six or something like that I guess.
But we did go to school down there. I don't—might
two or three years out there. Now I can really remember that part of it.
Used to have spelling matches. And I can remember, I'd sit up
at night, and fractions—oh. Granddaddy and I—I
always betted on him to teach me,
Well that's good. Let me go back to your education. Now the type of school, what grade did it go through?
Well the one I went to, it didn't have but one. It went as far as the eleventh grade I think.
Well did you come in and everybody of the same age was there, the same grade, or did you divide up.
No they had different sections. Fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh, on like that.
And how many teachers?
Oh I forgot how many. There was a whole lot of teachers. Different teachers. In other words, to make it very clear, the teacher that taught the seventh grade, she had too many pupils for one teacher. I do know that.
Now how was the school supported. Was it state supported or did the community support it?
Yeah, it was state supported. You heard talk of—Rosenwald used to go around and build these schools for black people.
Yeah, Rosenwald, okay, a philanthropist.
Yeah that's what he was. But it was really segragated, I'll have you to know why I say that. Because our school burned down, we were living with grandmother and grandfather when it burned down. And instead of them building a new school, they hauled a old school. Of course we left there a little after that, came to Durham to father. Instead of building a new school they hauled a old school—out of fashioned—I don't know what you call it—on that lot. That's where it was when I left and came to Durham. Our school burnt clean—and I'm thinking, I'm trying to remember—yeah, the school we had before this one burnt down, was a nice school. It was a school for black folks and it was nice, but the one they moved over there was terrible. Old upstairs and—it was a terrible school. See we left and came to Durham a little after that. But I don't know where the schools are. I went down there and was trying to ask questions about the first one we had. And I do believe it was deliberately burnt. I've always believed that. None of those nice schools like that for no nigger children, no. No way.
You don't have any idea who probably would have done it?
One of them white folks I guess, because it was nice, very nice. Burnt down to the ground. And I don't believe they even tried to save it.
Now your teachers, were they southerners or northerners?
They were southerners, more than likely they were southerners.
And you don't recall whether they got there …
But I went to school with a boy named Harrison Preston. That was a very
influential family there. And his older sister—this woman had
ten children. I knew his mother, she was a real missionary
Okay, now, let's see, you said you are sixty-six years old. When were you married?
October the tenth 1953.
And how long had you known your husband before you married?
About a year.
And where did you meet him?
Let me see, I'm trying to think where I was. Oh yeah, through a lady named Victoria Lawson, 'cause she had a son named Jake and they were friends.
What is your husbands name, his complete name?
Louis Barbee.
Now where was he from?
Chatham County. It's down there near Apex.
And what type of family did he come from. Do you recall who was his mother and father?
His mother was named Edna Barbee. And his father was named Robert Barbee, Robert.
What did they do for a living?
Farmers.
Okay, so the farming tradition continues.
Yeah, farmers. Until they got real old, they wasn't able. They
lived in a rural district but they wasn't able to do
anything, you know. Just lived out there and the children would see
about 'em. I don't know whether they got any type
of check or—I don't know—the children,
his brothers and sisters was talking about it. I don't know
whether they got any type of check but I know they got some type of
assistance. I don't know what it was. 'Cause I
visited her in her illness quite a bit, his mother. Then after she died
the father went to live with one of the other brothers. And
that's another case. They don't know anything
about his people, on their father's side. But that boy was
trying to say
Yeah, and was having difficulty.
He was having difficulty. And he told me that when he came he'd had a whole lot of trouble about his grandfather's people. But his grandmother was a Counsel before she married. So they know some of her people which helps. 'Cause some of her people are still living. She was Edna Counsel Barbee. Edna Counsel Barbee. That's her full name. So they wouldn't have any trouble, they want to find their roots about that, about their grandmother. But they had a lot of trouble on their grandfather's side. They're not having any luck about that. 'Cause he mentioned it when he was down here. When I was up there in March he mentioned it. They're going to continue to search and ask from some of the rest of 'em, you know, to help 'em search the family roots. So I don't know how successful he's been. I never known nobody but him but I knew some of her people, grandmother Counsel. I met several of them. His grandmother's people.
Do you know if they own their own land or do they just rent it?
No, they didn't own their own land but he got a uncle, which
is his father's brother. He owned the land of his
father's brother's—called him
Henderson. Okay, Henderson owned his own house, a nice house. His wife
died here about two or three years ago. Mabel, Nett, Betty, and John. He
got four daughters. And all four got nice beautiful homes right around
him. That's his uncle now, I'm just talking about
his uncle. His daddy's brother. He got four daughters and he
must own quite a bit of land around there. And all four of his
How many children did you have?
One, Louise.
Okay, her name is Louise?
Yeah.
Barbee.
Louise Valveeta Barbee. Just put Louise V. Barbee. I never could pronounce that. He named her. I never could pronounce that.
Okay, what is your philosophy on rearing your daughter, since you only had one child. What is your philosophy about rearing children in reference to your daughter Louise?
Well, in my opinion, if you're going to have children, don't have 'em too late in life.
So how old were you when you had Louise?
Forty-three.
Well you married late.
That's what I'm telling you now.
Okay, he was your first husband.
First husband. See I married in '53. Louise was born in
'56. That's on her birth certificate.
It's around here, she didn't take it with her,
that's on her birth certificate. So I married late in life.
But if you're going to have children, that's my
philosophy—have 'em early. Not too early,
'cause maybe there are some things you want to do before you
start a family. But don't wait too late. Because if you have
children, you have more patience. Now having children late in life
don't take the love away. I think you love 'em
just as well if you have 'em early. But there's a
kind of conflict between you and the child. You know, you're
old, up in age—not too old, but old. And the child will say,
momma, such and such a thing. She won't see it like I do. But
when you're kind of young you can kind of relate to the
child, you see. 'Cause you're kind of young and
the children are young, so there's another meaning in there
between you and the child. And so, I was fortunate to be near Polly in
her early childhood. So she was a second mother, see what I mean. She
could relate to her. And part your own—well, in other words,
Polly'd take her children like her sisters and brothers. Her
first early childhood baby like, she was up to her house because I had
to work. So she was just a second momma, see. I didn't spend
too much time with her, only at night 'cause I was working.
Why not?
I wanted her to go but come back. I didn't put that so nough
strictness on her, you know. She wouldn't take it, she
wouldn't accept it had I gone along with it. The way I was
raised that wouldn't have worked at all. I know she wanted to
go and I wanted her to go. She wanted to be like others. And I remember
a incident. These children were going to DTI (Durham Technical
Institute) to a
You got to know where to draw the line between permissiveness and, you know, permission, with children. You got to know where to draw the line. That's hard sometimes. You let 'em go and do too much, then you try to hold 'em back. Now that is hard. Don't you let nobody fool you. And then you want to let 'em hang out on their own and then you interfere and they rebel. That's another hard thing. They rebel. "Oh mommy, I know what I'm doing." I said, now what can you do. And the thing—in other words, they rebel against you and you drive 'em in the very thing you don't want 'em to get in. And it's hard, and you don't mean to be hard on 'em, in those ways. But, you draw the line, you draw it too tight or you slack it up, and here you go.
The same situation develops.
Same thing develops. It's no different. You let 'em
go too much. Then you keep 'em home too much. And then you
say, I got a lady called me last night sometime. She said to me, Mrs.
Barbee, where
Well I don't think anybody would know it.
Well anyway, I said children grow up over night. And when you do your
very best—I said, and it's another thing being
parents. I said, don't think of blaming yourself too much,
it's the age that we're living in. They hold
'em too tight. That's dangerous, that's
a whole lot worse I think. When you hold—they
haven't been out there to find out what it's all
about. They are not equipped to meet it, you know. You're
just holding 'em. Then when you let 'em go, and
they're heading into danger and you know it. You know it, you
see the danger. Then you tell 'em about it and try to hold
'em back and they rebel. I don't think they mean
to do it—they rebel against you. You're their
target. They rebel against you, and it make me sick, I can't
go, I can't do this and I can't do
that—let me live my life. Well you don't want
surrender. You keep on bumping at that thing and harping at you. You
won't surrender. You talk and talk and talk. So finally you
do surrender. But when you surrender, don't give yourself the
credit. They've seen where they were wrong, but they
ain't going to give you no credit for that. 'Cause
a incident happened to me. Louise left, and I begged and I cried. Going
down there to Fayetteville to see a vet—she met a guy. I
liked the guy, I did. Really frankly speaking, I ain't going
to tell no lie, I really liked him. But, he was married. He
wasn't living with
Came here one Friday evening, I'll never forget it. Just
crying, oh boy, was she crying. I got sick as a dog. She was just crying
and crying. She said, "Momma, I wish I had listened at
you." I said, lord. She said, "What." I
didn't question, he broke it off. And she cried and she
cried. So I said to Vets, I said, you know I was thinking about that
thing. I said Marshall could've used Louise, but he
didn't do it, he was too much of a gentleman. He
could've had her running down there every five minutes. The
way she was going, he could get out about going. But you see, I
don't know what happened between
Now what is your daughter doing now?
She's in D.C. getting a job. She's supposed to be interviewed for a job today.
And she is in school.
Yeah. She got a paper to go back in September. Hopefully that she will.
So she'll be a senior.
Yeah.
At North Carolina Central University.
Yeah.
When did your husband die?
October the 19, 1966.
And was it very difficult for you to make it economically and socially after his death. Especially having a daughter who probably at this time was about—Louise was born in…
She was nine. Nine years old. Nine, she was ten December—he was already dead. Yes, it was very difficult. Economically, socially, and everything else. Because of the fact—I had to be two parents in one. Two of 'em. And at that early stage it wasn't too much of a problem. It was more economical than anything else, 'cause she hadn't got out into the social light. You know, like young girls get. She hadn't never got out into that. But when she began to get in the social light, I had to be the spokesman, trying to tell her what's right and what's wrong. And telling her what's out there. And I had to keep it up continuously, telling her that I don't care who go out there and do something and get by with it, you can't. Just be yourself. And I've told her, I've said, Louise—and I've told others that were involved in it—I said, now if you do wrong, do it 'cause you want to do it. I've told her that more than one time. I said, if you go out here and get drunk, get drunk 'cause you want to get drunk. I said, there's liquor out there, drink it because you want to drink it. Don't drink it for nobody else. 'Cause somebody else will go out there and get drunk and they've been doing it for years, it won't scar them much. They could probably handle it. But if you go out there and get drunk, something might happen to you.
What type of job did your husband have, what did he do for a living?
Domestic. I would come under domestic work, because he raked yards and worked in private homes, you know. Raking the yard, yard work—mostly yard work.
Let me go back to 1922, the family moves to Durham and you stay here for awhile, and then you move back. Well, the family moves back to Manning in 1925, and then later granddaddy brings you back up here.
Yeah.
How old were you when you came to Durham, can you recall. I'm quite sure you were very young.
The first time or the last time granddaddy brought us here.
The first time.
The first time. Wasn't even in school. Yeah, wait a minute. Yes I was. I'm getting confused. Yes, we were in school, because I went to Hillside. I can see some of my teachers now. One of 'em was so mean. I went to Hillside.
Well, maybe you were
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
You know for the early part of your life.
Exciting.
What, the buildings.
Exciting, where we lived at there was something going on all the time. People cutting up and going on. Over there on Poplar Street. I can see that now. We had some nice elderly neighbors, but it was very exciting.