[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

BRENT GLASS:

I thought we would just start out and just talk a little bit about your early days around here. Your name is Johnnie Jones? Is that your full name?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right, that's right: Johnnie Jones.

BRENT GLASS:

When were you born?

JOHNNIE JONES:

1904.

BRENT GLASS:

What was your birthday?

JOHNNIE JONES:

The twenty-eighth day, tomorrow. What's the date, Friday? Today's the twenty-seventh? Tomorrow.

BRENT GLASS:

Tomorrow is your birthday?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

So you're going to be seventy-two years old?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Seventy-two years old tomorrow.

BRENT GLASS:

I didn't realize I was coming here on your birthday. Well, this is a nice day to talk then about what life has been like around here. Were you born in Greensboro?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I was born in Chatham County; came here when I was a little ol' baby.

BRENT GLASS:

Where in Chatham? Do you know?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Pittsboro, yes that's right.

BRENT GLASS:

And when did you move to Greensboro?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well I couldn't tell you that, 'cause I was just a little baby when I came here.

BRENT GLASS:

OK. But you've lived most of your life, then, in Greensboro?

JOHNNIE JONES:

All my life, yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Can you tell me something about your parents or grandparents? Did you know your grandparents?

JOHNNIE JONES:

None of them but my Grandaddy was all I knowed. That's the only one I knowed was my grandfather.

BRENT GLASS:

What did he do? What was his name?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Heyward Jones.

BRENT GLASS:

Can you tell me something about him?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well no. The only thing I can tell you about him is that he just rented corn. That's all I could tell you about him.

BRENT GLASS:

Did he live in Chatham?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, he lived in Chatham.

BRENT GLASS:

And what did he do there? Did he have a job there or anything?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Farmed was all I could tell you; as far as I know, farmed. See, I never was around him, only when he came up here—and he was an old man then.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. Did he ever talk about old times back in Chatham County, or anything about his parents, or anything like that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No he didn't; as far as I know he didn't. Now of course he and my daddy done a lot of talking, but as far as talking to me he didn't do that.

BRENT GLASS:

He didn't tell you any old stories?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I was too little, I reckon, to realize what he was talking about.

BRENT GLASS:

Right. Well then, tell me something about your parents. What was your father's name?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Young Jones—James Jones, rather.

BRENT GLASS:

And what was your mother's name?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Addie Jones.

BRENT GLASS:

Do you know her maiden name? Do you know what her name was before she… ?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Crutchfield; she was a Crutchfield.

BRENT GLASS:

Were they both from Chatham County?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

And was your father a farmer before he came up here?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, he worked at a sawmill, he told me. Said he used to walk five miles a day and back to go to work. And finally—I'll tell you what he told me—he told me he had to take care of his mother and his father. That's what he told me a good while ago:the reason that he had to go there is that he had to go and get something to eat for them, because they were both old, as far as I can remember.

BRENT GLASS:

Then he worked at the sawmill when he was in Chatham County?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

Around Pittsboro?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Why did he move here to Greensboro?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, he thought he could find some work up there to do. I think his mother died; and his father, I don't know whether he married again or not. He was just staying around down there, and every once in a while he'd come up here and hang around up here awhile, and then go back.

BRENT GLASS:

So your father then came up here to find work?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

Were there many other people in the family besides you?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I had two sisters.

BRENT GLASS:

What were their names?

JOHNNIE JONES:

One was named Katy Beatrice and the other one was named Lessie Jones.

BRENT GLASS:

So the whole family moved up here at the same time?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, the rest of them were born up there.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, OK; so you're the oldest?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, the oldest one's dead, my sister; she's dead.

BRENT GLASS:

What was her name?

JOHNNIE JONES:

She died in March, this last March.

BRENT GLASS:

Which one was that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That was Katy; that was my oldest sister.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. What job did your father take when he came up here?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, when I knowed anything he was firing the kiln; he fired kiln over there.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, he worked at Pomona?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, worked down there at that plant.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. Did he work there all his life?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, worked down there 'til he retired. He retired … let me see, I don't know when he retired; I forgot now. But he retired about eight or ten years ago.

BRENT GLASS:

Is he still living?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, he's dead now; him and my mother are both dead. Let me see, one, two. My father, my mother, my three sisters and one brother dead.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, you had a brother also?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes; I got three brothers living now—yes, three brothers

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living now.

BRENT GLASS:

OK, so how large a family was your family? You had two sisters?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I had five sisters. Let me see: Katy, Nanny—I left Lessie out; we called her Nanny—Katy, Louise, Nanny, Louise and Beulah. Five sisters dead.

BRENT GLASS:

And how many brothers?

JOHNNIE JONES:

One: one brother dead.

BRENT GLASS:

Right. How many did you have altogether?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Eleven of us. In the family? Eleven of us.

BRENT GLASS:

So five sisters and six boys?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

OK. That's a big family. Did you all go to work at Pomona?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well yes, every one of them worked there awhile. Some of them quit and go somewhere else. Yes, all of them worked there.

BRENT GLASS:

Can you tell me something about the first house you remember living in?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. It was down on the job, a little old red … a little old house painted red. Let me see, how many rooms did that house have to it: one, two, three, four, five, six. Six rooms.

BRENT GLASS:

Was it a frame house?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Frame house, yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Was it a company… ?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, a company house, paying twenty-five cents a week rent. That's what they paid.

BRENT GLASS:

For a room or for the whole house?

JOHNNIE JONES:

For the whole house: no light bill, water bill or nothing to

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pay. We lived in it first before they even wired it up for lights; we lived in there. And when they wired it up for light I think it went up another quarter. And they lived there, as far as I know, twenty or twenty-five years right there, and that's all they paid. Then way bye and bye it went another quarter. And they built some new houses; built them out of blocks. Now the rent went from seventy-five to a dollar and a quarter. That would get you some pretty good housing then. It went to a dollar and a quarter: no light bill, no water bill or nothing to pay. Just pay that dollar and a quarter a week; they'd take it out on you.

BRENT GLASS:

Take it out of your paycheck?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

So that was after they built the new houses?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that's right.

BRENT GLASS:

How about in that old house? The whole family lived in that six room house?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, no, not the whole family. See, after they moved I think there were three or four born after then. I disremember how many it was though, but it was three or four born after then.

BRENT GLASS:

Where did the little children play around?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Anywhere: out in the yard, roamed anywhere, any field, anywhere. There wasn't no playground nowhere.

BRENT GLASS:

No? Were there a lot of children for you to play with when you were younger?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, yes, right smart of them, right smart of children. But I never did too much playing with children nohow.

BRENT GLASS:

Why not?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I was always doing something, building something, or working on

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something, or trying to figure out something all the time.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh really?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Like what? what kind of things did you like to build?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Bird houses; build something like a boiler or something; try to fix something to hold some steam; messing around like that. I'd run a chimney way out here; I'd have my furnace here and my chimney way out. I was always messing around, digging and doing stuff: building tents and everything. I always liked to plunker with stuff: tearing up clocks and putting them back together.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. So you were sort of like a mechanic when you were little?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you go to work with your Dad much?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. When I first started to work, I belive I was thirteen years old. See, I quit school after school was out. I'd quit school and go work 'til school'd start again; then I'd go back. Never asked for a job; I ain't never asked nobody for a job, just go ahead over there and go to work. Every morning my Daddy would send me back home and say I was too little to work. Well I'd go over there and mess around, and frequently I'd go on to work. "What are you doing here?" I'd tell him, "I'm working," and that's all there was to it.

BRENT GLASS:

Really?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

What kinds of jobs would you do?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I'd done some of everything there. I fired the kiln, I fired the boilers, I worked in dry pan (that's where they grind that

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stuff up and make pipe—I worked there), I made sewer pipe, I would set pipe: I had done everything there. And the last thing, I worked up to a maintenance man.

BRENT GLASS:

What do you do there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Just keep things fixed up; break-downs, get them fixed up.

BRENT GLASS:

Before we get into Pomona I just wanted to ask you a couple of other things about your house. Did your mother work also?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No.

BRENT GLASS:

She didn't work?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. After we growed up, yes, she worked in the cotton mill awhile; after we growed up, worked there a year or two.

BRENT GLASS:

Which cotton mill?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Pomona Cotton Mill, over there where Western Electric is. She worked over there awhile.

BRENT GLASS:

Was that unusual, for a black woman to work in the cotton mill?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

There weren't many…

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, there wasn't too many over there, but some: right smart too. I don't know how many, but a bunch of them over there.

BRENT GLASS:

Did all the people who lived in your neighborhood all work over at Pomona?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, some of them didn't work at all.

BRENT GLASS:

How did they get by?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well darned if I know;just strived somehow, I don't know.

BRENT GLASS:

Did your family have a garden?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, they'd always have a garden: corn, beans, cabbage, beets;

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I don't know, just whatever you'd want out there they'd put it out there. In other words, they'd see that you had a garden; they'd break it up for you unknown. And when you got ready to till it all you had to do was go up there and get you a mule and go ahead on and tend it.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, the company did that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, planted you the field and all.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you keep any animals around the house? Any chickens?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, nothing but some chickens and my cow.

BRENT GLASS:

You had a milk cow?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. Hogs: raised some big hogs, four and five hundred pound hogs.

BRENT GLASS:

Your father did? Your parents?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. That's the reason I don't like ham today.

BRENT GLASS:

Why?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Eat too much ham and chicken. I just got tired of ham and chicken. Collards: I despise to see them.

BRENT GLASS:

You do?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. I don't care nothing for ham right now.

BRENT GLASS:

But your father would come home at night and milk the cow?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, Momma would milk her, or either I would milk her. In fact, to tell you the truth, couldn't nobody milk her but my mother and myself; wouldn't let you milk her. My mother and myself were the only ones that could milk that cow.

BRENT GLASS:

Why? You were the ones that knew how to do it?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

What other jobs did you have around the house? Did each person

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in the family have a certain job to do?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. Only thing I done was cut wood, cut a little wood to cook with, and see that there was coal in the house. That's all; I didn't have nothing to do.

BRENT GLASS:

The house was heated by coal?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

A coal stove?

JOHNNIE JONES:

A big old fireplace.

BRENT GLASS:

What did your sisters do around the house? Did they help with the cooking?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. They were some real good cooks too.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh they were?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh yes, all of them can cook. Every one of them can cook … but one. She ain't no good on cooking; all the rest of them cook.

BRENT GLASS:

Now what would be some of the times when your family would… ? Would you go visiting other families, or people come visit you, or get together with other neighbors or soforth? Did you have any kind of parties or things like that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, once in a while; yes.

BRENT GLASS:

What would be the occasion for that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, they'd just get together to eat and mess around and have a little dancing or something.

BRENT GLASS:

You would have some dancing?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, had what you might call … way back there they called it a frolic then: "grab your partner and promenade" and all that stuff, going around, and banjos and stuff picking.

BRENT GLASS:

Would you have a band there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, just guitars and banjos.

BRENT GLASS:

Guitars and banjos?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

Did anybody in your family play?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, my daddy could play a little bit, and my uncle, he could call the set. They had a good time. They had a better time than they do now.

BRENT GLASS:

Really?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes sir, they had a whole lot better time than people have now.

BRENT GLASS:

Why?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I don't know. There just wasn't no fussing and fighting and cussing and arguing going on; that's the biggest thing. People now, you go out and have a little fun, people want to kill you now. See, people didn't do that back then.

BRENT GLASS:

You don't remember many fights over at Pomona or in the neighborhood?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, no. Everybody got along lovely. On the fourth of July, that's when they had a big time then.

BRENT GLASS:

Over at the plant?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, over on the job, up there on the edge of the woods somewhere, with a big band and big eating and everything, all day long.

BRENT GLASS:

Would the company put that on?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, the people put that on. Go off home and get some children and bring them out there, feed them, and play the band and things. People used to have a better time than they do now.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. Nobody would get liquored up over there on fourth of July, and get a little too much liquor in them?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No.

BRENT GLASS:

Not too much?

JOHNNIE JONES:

If they did it wouldn't be but one or two, and somebody'd take him home right then and put him to bed. It wasn't nothing like it is now.

BRENT GLASS:

Now how about church? Did your parents take you to church?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, yes, they went to church every Sunday. You had to go to church.

BRENT GLASS:

What church did you go to?

JOHNNIE JONES:

A Methodist church; it used to be there right on the job, a great big old Methodist church down there.

BRENT GLASS:

When you say "on the job" you mean that there was a… ?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, right out where the plant… The plant was about as far as from here over to the corner up there.

BRENT GLASS:

Right. And what did they call the village that you lived in? Was that called Pomona?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes: Pomona Terracotta, that's what it was called.

BRENT GLASS:

Did they have a certain name for your neighborhood? Did everybody who worked at the plant live there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, most. Two people lived at Guilford and Collins Grove up there that a'way, and Greensboro.

BRENT GLASS:

Now we're pretty far out from Greensboro, aren't we?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, about six miles.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you get to go into town much?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Once in a while.

BRENT GLASS:

What would you go into town for? Why would you go?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I'd have to be going in with my daddy. That would be on Saturday, Saturday evening rather, five or six o'clock.

BRENT GLASS:

You would go in to do some shopping?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that's right. That's the only time we had time to do some shopping, on Saturday evening; we worked 'til four o'clock on a Saturday. Had to go in and get groceries and mess around on Saturday evening—Saturday night, rather.

BRENT GLASS:

What would payday be like? When people would get paid off over here at Pomona what would they do? Did they have a little party or something?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. By the time they bought groceries and stuff didn't have nothing to have no party out of. My daddy, I don't think he was making but eight dollars a week then. I don't think he even made over eight dollars a week then.

BRENT GLASS:

Now this would be before the first World War, probably, right, when you were a young boy?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I remember that, yes; I was a little ol' boy.

BRENT GLASS:

Did your father have any sayings, or any kinds of rules around the house? Who was the disciplinarian around the house? Who would discipline you?

JOHNNIE JONES:

My mother.

BRENT GLASS:

How would she do that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well … now I'll just tell you the truth. You know, I didn't pay too much attention to it, and I just couldn't tell you exactly how it was done.

BRENT GLASS:

Did she ever take a switch and hit you a little bit with the switch?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh yes; she could give you a good one, too. She was left handed, and it looked like when she hit you she'd pull you to her. Now we got plenty of whooping; I reckon that's the reason we're like we are today, because she believed in punishing you for what you done.

BRENT GLASS:

Do you remember any particular time that you got punished?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I remember two times. I remember a fellow went there and told them I spit on him—and which I didn't know the fellow was even around nowhere. And she whipped me for that. And I told her she didn't due me that whipping; I didn't spit on nobody, and I didn't know the man was upstairs. I was setting down on the ground and he spit out there on me. Of course I didn't tell her 'til after she whipped me; I didn't tell her. And then she whipped me again for being over there at the boiler room at night firing boilers. And she told me to stay away from over there. But I just wanted to be doing something all the time, just like an old goat. That's how I learned how to fire the boilers, hanging around over there at night, fooling with the old night man. He'd let me fire and mess around, so I just went out.

BRENT GLASS:

I started to ask, did your parents have any sayings like, oh, "Don't take it so hard, it may not be true," or just kinds of little sayings that they would say to the kids, or little things that they would always be saying? Do you remember anything like that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well no, not too good.

BRENT GLASS:

How about school? How far did you go in school?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I went to the sixth grade, yes. Then after I quit school

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I seed my mistake. Well, in fact, I run away from school. I was a mean little rascal.

BRENT GLASS:

Why? You didn't like it there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I liked it; but I didn't like for nobody to mess with me, see. And then we'd get to fighting, and then the teacher'd jump into it. Then we'd fall out and they'd run me away from school.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. You'd be fighting with some of your classmates, you mean?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Where was the school?

JOHNNIE JONES:

It was right over there in the pines. When we first started off we started off in the church down there; had school in the church. Then they built a big school out over yonder, right over there on the hill.

BRENT GLASS:

Who built it?

JOHNNIE JONES:

The county, I reckon.

BRENT GLASS:

The county, not the company?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, not the company, the county built it. That was a nice place over there. Then they turned around and tore it down after so many years. A good place too, a nice school; I figured they need it now.

BRENT GLASS:

I'll ask you just a couple of more questions about your home, and then we can talk about Pomona. OK? You've said that you ran off from school. Did you think your teachers… ? How did they treat you over there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

The teachers? They'd treat you nice; yes, they were nice to us. Well, what was the cause of it, what was the biggest thing that caused it: somebody done something, and she had a switch and hit him. Instead of hitting him she hit me. Then we got to arguing, and I run to the door and held it to keep

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the other teacher from coming in there. Then that's where we fell out at. She told me to go home, and I went home and didn't go back no more. Went over to the plant and went to work.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you regret that later on?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes I did. Now sometimes I think, "Now if I'd of went on to school, what kind of job I could have had today." I was a smart guy—not bragging also, but I was a smart guy.

BRENT GLASS:

Well let me ask you: when you were growing up like that did you dream about becoming some particular job? Did you ever play like you were somebody? Or what did you want to be when you were growing up?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I'll tell you about me: I wanted to be everything. I wanted to do this and I wanted to do that and I wanted to do that. My mother would come out and ask me, "Now what are you doing out there?" And I'd tell her "Nothing." I never would tell nobody what I was doing.

BRENT GLASS:

But you were always tinkering with something?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right, always tinkering with something.

BRENT GLASS:

But you didn't think to yourself, "Well, I think I'd like to be an engineer, or I'd like to be a mechanic," or something like that. Did you ever think about a certain job that you wanted to be?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No I didn't, to tell you the truth. But I'll tell you, I didn't study about that too much, 'cause anything that I'd see you do, I may ask you two or three questions, I'd turn around and do it myself. I was just that smart in the head. I didn't have no particular job: just anything that I wanted to do, I could do it … if I wanted to do it. I'm that a'way yet. I've seen people sitting messing with something, messing with something; I'd walk up and stand there and look and wouldn't say a word.

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I'd tell them, "Give me your wrench;" I'll sit down and I'll fix it.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. Well that takes a certain kind of talent; I mean, you've got to be able to observe pretty closely, right?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

And be able to concentrate?

JOHNNIE JONES:

All I need now is that little piece of paper; that's all I need now.

BRENT GLASS:

What piece of paper?

JOHNNIE JONES:

You know, from the school; that little piece of paper from the school is all you get. That's all you need.

BRENT GLASS:

Do you think that would have made a difference?

JOHNNIE JONES:

It would have made a big difference with me.

BRENT GLASS:

Why?

JOHNNIE JONES:

'Cause I knows what to do.

BRENT GLASS:

But what would you have done differently? Would you have taken a different kind of job if you had graduated from high school?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

Where might you have taken it?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I might have been setting in somebody's office. I've done some of everything.

BRENT GLASS:

Did your parents discourage you from quitting school, or did they say anything about it?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, they didn't say a word about it; didn't make me go back or nothing. Well, I might have could have got back; they expelled me from school. I might have went on somewhere else and went to school, but I didn't have it on my mind. See, you don't never know what's in front of

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you; all you know's what's behind you. That was my biggest thing: I didn't know what was in front of me.

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]

BRENT GLASS:

Let's talk a little bit about when you first went to work at Pomona. You mentioned some of the times that you used to go over there as a young boy and just mess around over there—right?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Do you remember your first job that you had there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I worked with the trimming bunch. You know, they make the pipe, set them out on the floor. They set there so long, then you go turn them over. That's the first job I had. Then I got on up a little larger. I went up and went to feeding the press: that's running the mud in there to make the pipe out of. I left there and went down and went to tempering the clay: that's making it up.

BRENT GLASS:

You mixed the clay with what, with water?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Water. I left there and went to the setting bunch: where they set them in the kiln. I worked there awhile. Then I left there. I don't know, I just worked everywhere; I done everything. Ain't nothing that I haven't done. And then as time rolled on I went to making pipe.

BRENT GLASS:

Where? What do you mean by that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Pressing them out, with steam. Yes, press them out and run them out, run them out of the press.

BRENT GLASS:

So you did the job of putting them in the press, and then later on you took them… ?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, you'd run the mud in there; a man upstairs run the mud in there. You had a lever to pull to make the pipe. I don't know what you were

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ever here when they made them with steam. I don't know what you've ever been by here. You ever been here before?

BRENT GLASS:

Yes.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Do you remember when they'd make pipe with steam? Had a steam press.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, oh, yes, right.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. In fact you'd hear "chow, chow chow chow"; you heared it like that. But every time you'd hear that thing go "chow, chow, chow," that's a pipe made. That's right.

I don't know what; I can't tell you what all I ain't done over there. Then I got smart enough to go to setting up the forms for the pipe: changing everything up to make a different pipe. And then I left there and got to be a maintenance man. I don't care what it was, they just called me. I remember once I was over there and my brother (I learned him how to run a machine, you know, over there), and he was over there. And the superintendent come by and told me, he said, "James is in trouble. Go around there and see what's the matter with him." Well I walked up there and stood and looked. I asked him—we called him Curly—I said, "Curly, what's the matter?" He said, "I can't get this thing to run here." I said, "If you put it on the track it'll run." He said, "Well I'll be damned." He said, "I've been here messing with this thing for hours. You just come right in here and showed it right off the bat." I can do most anything, I don't care what it is.

BRENT GLASS:

Now who taught you these jobs?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I just picked it up.

BRENT GLASS:

You just taught yourself?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, just picked it up.

BRENT GLASS:

Did anybody stand over you and say, "All right, now you do this and you do that"?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. Now, you see, I'll tell you what I'll do; here's the way I am. If something happened over there you call me. And if you've got to go ahead and tell me, I'll tell you, "Fix it then. If you know what to do, do it. You fix it." See, I'd throw my things down and walk off. And some of them said, "Let him alone. He'll fix it when you all get away." Then I'd go in and go back and fix it when all of them leave. I remember one day they told me to take my men and go out there and unload that ring machine out of the truck. Well, I went out there and I got everything set up. Here come two of them out there telling me what to do. I stood there and listened to them. I said, "Y'all give me this job, didn't you?" They said "Yes." I said, "Well let me run it." Went right on off. Four o'clock come and I had that thing setting there in the plant, and they don't know how I done it.

BRENT GLASS:

How did you do it?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I just had my way mapped out and told my boys what to do and how to do it, and we just done it all right.

BRENT GLASS:

So you had a group of men that you were sort of the leader of?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I used to operate with twenty-three men.

BRENT GLASS:

On which job was this?

JOHNNIE JONES:

The pressing crew, making sewer pipe. See, I worked mostly at night. Nobody but me, see; I'd be there. Everybody wanted to work with me. But we'd always do a lot of work. We'd always do it, and nobody grumbling and fussing and fighting. Just whatever I told them, that's what went.

BRENT GLASS:

Well, what were your hours? How many hours a day would you work?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I didn't have no certain time. I was supposed to work eight hours. But sometimes I'd leave here in the morning at seven o'clock; I may not be back home no more 'til tomorrow about two or three o'clock.

BRENT GLASS:

Why is that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Something'd break down, I'd stay there and fix it. And then at night I wouldn't go off and leave nothing so that when the day man came on he couldn't work. If I did I'd tag him and tell him what to do. I'd be back sometime tomorrow about ten or eleven o'clock to fix it. I never would go off and leave him in the hole. I'd always have something for him to do when he got there.

BRENT GLASS:

Were most of the people that you worked with black or white?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Black.

BRENT GLASS:

They all lived in this neighborhood?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Part of them did. Part of them lived in Reidsville and everywhere, just different places.

BRENT GLASS:

How much did they pay you? How much did you start out getting paid?

JOHNNIE JONES:

When I started out? I got ten cents an hour when I started out; I was about fourteen years old then. And it just kept a'going up. I never made two dollars and a half a day at that plant in my life. I went up and I got more all the time. If I didn't think it was enough, I'd go tell them, "I don't think it's enough." I wouldn't have no introduction; they'd pay me some more.

BRENT GLASS:

Really?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes sir.

BRENT GLASS:

Do you remember a time you'd go up to … who would this be, Mr. Boren?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. Well, Mr. Millikan was the guy in charge then. Well, I worked under seven supervisors there; never had a cross word with one. But one of my special men was Kemp Boren. Now me and him, we could make it. I'd go down there some morning and he'd say, "You go down yonder and get in my car, and stay there. If I don't get there 'til twelve, you stay there." Well that evening or whenever he'd come we'd go bird hunting. Well we'd go off, and he'd give me four or five dollars out of his pocket. Then he'd mark me up ten hours on the time sheet. Well, I left that. And another good fellow there was John A. Boren; he was a good supervisor.

BRENT GLASS:

Were you worried that something might be breaking down on the plant while you were out bird hunting?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I wasn't maintenance man then.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, I see.

JOHNNIE JONES:

I wasn't old enough to take on all that responsibility then. I was just messing around with him. Some mornings I'd go; he'd tell me, "Go over yonder and play with my boys." I'd go over to his house and stay all day, the whole day playing. He was a good fellow.

BRENT GLASS:

Did the fellows at the plant say anything about it to you? Did they kid you a little bit?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, they didn't know nothing about it. All they knew, I just wasn't there; that's all they knew. I'd go off to the store and get me a watermelon. He'd say, "Next time you go to the store and I catch you over there, I'm going to make you go out there in the field and pull up some weeds." I said, "You're just as well to do it, 'cause I'm going back.

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When I want me another watermelon I'm going back." Me and another boy were working together then.

BRENT GLASS:

Who said that to you, Kemp? Kemp Boren said that to you?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, yes. I told him it was just as well to do it, because I was going back when I wanted me a watermelon.

BRENT GLASS:

Well, how come he liked you so much?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I don't know why he liked me so much. My motto was that I treat you like I want you to treat me; that was my main motto.

BRENT GLASS:

That's the Golden Rule.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. And I done it to everybody. I didn't have a cross word with none of them; I'd do my work; I'd "mark up my board" every night; go back, and everything was all right.

BRENT GLASS:

What do you mean by "mark up your board"?

JOHNNIE JONES:

What production I put out that night. See, you had to count that stuff and mark it up. Then the man would take it off at the end of the week.

BRENT GLASS:

I see.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. You'd mark it up tonight; it would just stay up there all week 'til Monday morning. Then you spoiled that off, and then you'd start again. He'd been and got it off by then. When you got back there it'd be off of the board; he'd been done taken it off.

BRENT GLASS:

What was the most you made there at the plant in a week per hour?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Per hour? I don't know, to tell you the truth; I've forgot now.

BRENT GLASS:

I mean, about how high up did you get? You started at ten cents an hour. Did you get up to $2.50 an hour?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh no, I never went there. I got over that. When I went up, I went up over that. I have made $265 dollars a week there.

BRENT GLASS:

You made $265. a week?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I have made.

BRENT GLASS:

That's a lot of money.

JOHNNIE JONES:

That ain't too much. I made some good money down there, going to tell you the truth. Then I left there, went out to Number Six. I run a machine out there making pipe, an augur press.

BRENT GLASS:

Right. Where was that? Where was Number Six?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, it was right out from Number Three, right out there in the field. It's tore down too; they tore it down here a while back.

BRENT GLASS:

How many plants were there altogether?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Altogether? Well, let me see; you mean before they destroyed?

BRENT GLASS:

Yes.

JOHNNIE JONES:

One, two, three, four.

BRENT GLASS:

Four plants.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Then they built another little plant out there where there were machines in there, and you'd take the pipe out. Counting that it'd be five.

BRENT GLASS:

Well, why did they call it Number Six?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, that's the last one that was built.

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, I see.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Now Number One and Two were pretty old plants, weren't they?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, they were frame buildings, yes. Number Three and Number Four, Number Three was built out of bricks, Number Four was built out of

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Page 25

blocks.

BRENT GLASS:

And they all had those kilns around them, right? Those beehive kilns?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right.

BRENT GLASS:

You don't see any like that any more, do you?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, and there ain't, I don't think, but one or two over there now. They done tore them all down.

BRENT GLASS:

How do you feel about that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Who me?

BRENT GLASS:

Yes.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, I'll tell you the truth: I ain't had no feeling about them, to tell you the truth.

BRENT GLASS:

You told me that you missed the whistles blowing.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I miss that especially. You know, something to keep a racket every morning. I miss it bad.

BRENT GLASS:

When did they blow the whistles?

JOHNNIE JONES:

7:15 and 7:30, and 12:00 and 12:30, and 4:00.

BRENT GLASS:

Was that to wake people up, or was that another shift?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, that was the time to go to work, 7:30. They'd give you fifteen minutes warning.

BRENT GLASS:

Well, let me ask you this. You said you worked at night. There was a night shift?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, a night shift and a day shift. Well, when all of the plants were running all of them worked the same hours. You'd go to work at 7:30 'til 4:00. And then one of the plants burned down and they had to take care of the men. They went to running two shifts. The first shift

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would go on at 6 o'clock in the morning; the next shift would go on at 2 to 10. One'd be coming off and the other one going on.

BRENT GLASS:

So there'd always be somebody there.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, always somebody there.

BRENT GLASS:

I see. Did you ever go down to their mine down the Gulf and mine?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, yes.

BRENT GLASS:

You did? What was that like?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Nothing but just a big old clay cut there where they done pushed some trees down, and a great big hole right there where they were getting that clay. I was down there not too long ago.

BRENT GLASS:

Yes. Well, they didn't start that up until you were a fullgrown man.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I was an old man, yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Where did they get their clay from before that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Madison, yes, Madison. I've even been over there and worked, fixing steam shovels that would break down. I'd be over there before anybody'd get there to raise steam on the boiler, working on the steam shovel.

BRENT GLASS:

So you knew the whole process?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, sir.

BRENT GLASS:

From the time they took it out of the ground until they made a pipe.

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right, from the time it come out of the ground until it went out in the kiln and out on the yard I knowed all about it. I even been out there loading trucks. You know, get them orders in, there'd be so many. A man'd come by and hand you some orders and go on; you'd go

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out there and load the truck, take your men and load them trucks.

BRENT GLASS:

Would this be every day you'd be doing a new job, or would it just be a certain… ?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, just certain times, certain times, whatever come up. Well, after a while it got so they could have had a process of men a'loading, just of kept them. When they got too much stuff and the men couldn't handle it, why you'd go out there and help them.

BRENT GLASS:

Did they make a good product over there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that's right.

BRENT GLASS:

I've heard it said that there's a Pomona sewer pipe under every town in North Carolina probably.

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, it wasn't that many; it was a few, but not many. But I think this here place made the best pipe.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you ever get to see any other pipes made by any other companies?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No I didn't, to tell you the truth. I was intending to go, but something happened and I didn't go. I don't know what it was now.

BRENT GLASS:

Let me ask you: when you were first coming on, most of the machines were run by steam engines, right?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right. Yes, a big old steam engine pulled it off. Then they switched off to electric motors. I was glad when all that was changed.

BRENT GLASS:

When would that happen? Do you remember when that was?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh, about twelve or fifteen years ago.

BRENT GLASS:

They had the steam engines running until then?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

After World War II?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that's right. Let's see, the year when the plant blowed up

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they were running electric motors then.

BRENT GLASS:

I was going to ask you… I know that there was one accident there in 1962.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh yes. I was at home that day; I wasn't working then. I hurt my wrist. I'll tell you what happened. I went in there, I was right there at Number Six working on a press out there. I was going to make some pipe out there. Well, what it was, we were going to send the machine to the Gulf. They had a machine there to put it on the boards under the pipe. And I went out there to show the man if it would work. Well, I bent down to hook up there, and I looked in there and said, "My knife ain't right." It wasn't setting right. Well, I went back and changed my knife; then I stepped back again. And when I stepped back to put my hand in there to fix that, a fellow come up and stuck the air on it. And he seed me with my hand, he snatched it off right quick. If it had caught it, it would have cut my hand off right there. See, where that thing hits it locks up right dead.

BRENT GLASS:

What did he have in his hand?

JOHNNIE JONES:

An air hose. See, you slip on an air hose; then all you have to do is slip it on there and it's got it that quick. But it happened it didn't catch when he stuck it up there. It'd have cut my hand off if it hadn't smashed it off. It hit it and hurt it awful bad. The doctor said it cracked a bone, but I ain't never believed him because it didn't ever give me no trouble.

BRENT GLASS:

Well, that was the same time that the plant blew up?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, the plant blowed up the next day.

BRENT GLASS:

Now do you remember anything about that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I wasn't there. Yes, I remember about it, but I wasn't there that day.

BRENT GLASS:

What happened? What was it like around here when that happened?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh boy, it was a pitiful time down there, I'm telling you the truth. Some men hurt (five or six of them got hurt), one got killed, and one man ain't right yet from it.

BRENT GLASS:

Really?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. I didn't know who it was when I first seed him. I walked up and he said, "Oh, Cowboy." And I said, "No, it ain't Cowboy—" Cowboy was baldheaded. And I looked over there and there laid Newell Freedman, or Newell—what's his name? Let me see; we called him "Catboy."

BRENT GLASS:

"Catboy."

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that's what we called him. Newell, Newell … what was his name now? I forgot his name now; I might think of it directly. Then I walked around and come on up through there around the kiln, and there lay another boy. He was dead with his hand knocked off at the end right up here. That was a pitiful time down there.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you hear the explosion?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I was sitting right up there in a chair. Felt like the bottom was coming out of the chair. I told the fellow that fired the boiler (he was going in at three o'clock), I told him, I said, "There goes the boiler." Old Joe said, "Yes, it had to go; that's it."

BRENT GLASS:

What plant was that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

It wasn't but one plant then. One unknown; the other one just had an electric motor. It was the only plant down there.

BRENT GLASS:

Which plant was that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That was Number Three.

BRENT GLASS:

Number Three.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. And I went down there and I looked at that thing. The doors on the building were knocked off. It drove a hole through two or three walls going back there. I never seed a mess in my life…

BRENT GLASS:

Were there ever any other accidents like that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, that's the only one like that.

BRENT GLASS:

Really?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. Well, I'll tell you the truth. About three weeks before that happened I knowed there was something wrong somewhere.

BRENT GLASS:

Why?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Whenever you'd stop running them presses, stopped them and you'd go back to it, just stopped it three or four minutes, then you'd pull that head (going to pull it down in there), it'd haul back and fall in there. I told Mr. Banner, I said, "Mr. Banner, you'd better go to that boiler room; there's something wrong somewhere." I said, "That head don't do the boiling there like that." Well, he went on back there and went to talking to another fellow about it, and he told him the same thing. In two or three weeks they were gone.

BRENT GLASS:

And he had just started as superintendent then, hadn't he?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, it hadn't been too long.

BRENT GLASS:

Right, yes.

JOHNNIE JONES:

He's a fine fellow, though. Just whatever he said, that's what he means. If he said "Yes" he meant it, and if he said "No" that's what he meant. I liked to fool with him and deal with him; he's just a

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good fellow.

BRENT GLASS:

Did any of the fellows who worked over there, nobody lost a hand?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, one of them lost it. No, he's the only one; the one who got killed lost his hand. He was dead.

BRENT GLASS:

But, I mean, over the years nobody ever got injured?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No. A fellow lost a part of his finger over there; that was a supervisor that lost his finger. I'll tell you what happened. The whole thing got hung up there one day, the whole motor machine got hung up. And the fellow that drives the harvester went down and told him, "Hey, don't bother that thing; you'll get your finger cut off!" And darn, in five minutes time he had his own finger cut off. I be it out there beside the door. But to tell you the truth, I got along with everybody there, to tell you the truth. Now I don't know you, but if I stay with you eight or ten hours I'd tell what kind of fellow you is. Me and a white fellow were working on a dry print out there; it stayed out there. Well, in about a while we got nice. Now you take this paper. I'd go upstairs all the time. "Can you read this thing off to me step by step?" I stood there and looked at him to see what he was going to say. Well, I took the paper and went on upstairs. I read it off step by step to him and told him what to do on it. I said, "Raise your head." He raised it. I said, "Let your chutes in. All right, put the dust in." He'd do that. "All right, draw your chutes out." He'd do that. I said, "Lock her up and go." He'd go. He'd make it there as long as you'd read it off to him. He was a white fellow. Me and him worked together, and I had more fun than a

BRENT GLASS:

Were there many white fellows working over there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

There were right smart of them.

BRENT GLASS:

About how many people were working at the plant when it was at… ?

JOHNNIE JONES:

At that time?

BRENT GLASS:

At its height; you know, at its biggest.

JOHNNIE JONES:

At its height? About three or four hundred.

BRENT GLASS:

That's a big place.

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. About three hundred men.

BRENT GLASS:

No women?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No women. They wanted to get some women over there. I told Owen Boren, who was the superintendent then, I told him, "Don't get no women over here."

BRENT GLASS:

Why not?

JOHNNIE JONES:

They didn't need no women over there messing around over there. Somebody'd be always around talking to them or something. They didn't need no women where there's a gang of men at, do they?

BRENT GLASS:

No, I guess not. You know the plant better than I do.

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, you don't need no women over there. But some women worked at the Gulf—not the Gulf, but that brick plant down there, Pleasant Gardens. Some women did work down there. I don't know what they're working there now or no. I've been down there messing around.

BRENT GLASS:

You have.

JOHNNIE JONES:

I ain't never had but one job in my life.

BRENT GLASS:

And that was as … what would you call yourself? A brickman? You know, if somebody asked you what your job was, what would you say what you'd do? Just say, "I work for Pomona"?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes. Pomona Terracotta Company, sewer pipe, in the sewer pipe field.

BRENT GLASS:

Well what would the fellows talk about down there at the plant? They didn't want any women there because they might be talking about women, is that right?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Right. The man who was going to get them, I told him, "No, don't bring no women over here." You know women are crazy about their hair, you know. I said, "Women don't want to wash their head every night." So they never did get them there. He wanted them there, though, but he never did get them.

BRENT GLASS:

What kind of jobs would they have done over there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, they could have cleaned up and worked in the trimming bunch. There was a whole lot of stuff they could have done over there, women: they could have fed the press. They could have done a whole lot of jobs over there.

BRENT GLASS:

Were there any that they couldn't do, do you think? Do you think that there would be any that would be not good for them to do?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, it wouldn't be good for them to do it.

BRENT GLASS:

I mean, any jobs over there that you think women couldn't do?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, oh yes. There's plenty of jobs over there that women couldn't do.

BRENT GLASS:

Like what?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Like turning pipe: they couldn't do that. It'd be too much for them. Loading: they could have loaded trucks, but the stuff was too heavy for them. That's one thing: the stuff's too heavy for them. They couldn't do it. Plenty of work there they could have done, though.

BRENT GLASS:

But you liked it better with…

JOHNNIE JONES:

Without the women, yes. They had a block dye there once. Two engineers were working on that block dye. I done everything they told me to do to that dye: taking it down, and taking it to the shop. I was standing there looking at it. The president of the firm come in; he stood there and looked at the dye. I was doing something to it.

BRENT GLASS:

This is a dye?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, dye, a block dye. Well, we called it Cannon block 'cause we'd make them for Cannon mill. We called it Cannon block. And they couldn't do nothing with it. So one day the engineer come out there and asked me; he said, "When're you going to fix that dye?" Him and the superintendent came in there. I said, "The price ain't right." Well, they went on off; come back the next day and said, "Well, we done fixed the price. Now you fix the dye." But I still wouldn't bother with the dye. So the president of the firm walked in (that's Mr. Maple), and he said, "Can you fix that dye?" I told him, "Yes, I can fix it." So he said, "What would you do to it?" So I told him. One of the engineers walked up and said, "Aw, that won't work." The president said, "You let them alone." He said, "If it don't work I'll buy another one." And he asked me what would I do with that dye. I said, "I'd put me two half-moon chokes in this end. Leave the middle alone; I'll fix the middle. All I wants is two chokes in the end, and I'll do the balance." So he told me, he said, "Well, you go ahead and fix it." I said, "All I want is just four inch collar for them." (That's the bell on a four inch pipe.) I said, "I'm just going to cut half in two and put it in each end of it." Well the machinist said, "Well, I ain't going to bore it up." I said, "Yes you

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will." "No I ain't; I ain't going to bore it up." I turned right around and went in and got Mr. Banner. I said, "Mr. Banner." I said, "This boy said he wasn't going to bore this dyer up." He said, "You do anything he tells you to do to that dye. If it's take a hammer and bust it, you bust it." So he cut the collar for them in two, put half of it in each end. I said, "Now I want six bolts in this dye that goes through the side." I said, "It'll be up high enough. That mud's to come around and then the heel up." I said, "You needn't worry about that." So they went ahead and done that. I made me some chokes to put in the middle to hold that mud back; put that dye up, regulated my coal and went on and made them blocks. Didn't have another minute's trouble out of that block dye.

BRENT GLASS:

What did you mean by "The price isn't right?"

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, they wasn't paying me enough to do work like that. They was paying them engineers all that much money; I don't see how come they couldn't pay me. I'm going to fix it, why couldn't they pay me?

BRENT GLASS:

So did they fix the price?

JOHNNIE JONES:

That's right, yes. So I put the dye to work. And the superintendent come up there and told me that Mr. Millikan wanted to see me in his office that evening; would I have time? I told him yes, I could. I went down there and talked things over with him. He fixed me up, though.

BRENT GLASS:

He did?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, he fixed me up.

BRENT GLASS:

How?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Money proposition. Now I'll tell you the truth. I ain't bragging, but I always have been a smart guy. You'd better not let me see you do something. I may stand and look and may not say a word.

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After a while I'm going to ask you, "Why did you do so and so?" See, I wonder why that you do so and so when you could have done so and so. Well, you tell me; then I've got your idea and mine too. That's the reason I never would tell nobody nothing. They'd say, "What's the matter, Son?" I'd say, "I don't know, but I'll fix it." (They all called me "Son" all the time.)

BRENT GLASS:

Was that your nickname?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that was my nickname; everybody called me "Son." Now I could make it with all of them, I don't care who they were.

BRENT GLASS:

Now it sounds like there were a lot of the fellows that had nicknames down there.

JOHNNIE JONES:

They did.

BRENT GLASS:

Cowboy and Catboy, and what else?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Pluto and all that. You know, get something out of the funny papers and name them something and it'd go right off.

BRENT GLASS:

What are some of the other names? Do you remember some of your friends that were there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Oh, Fred—let me see—Ernest. Jock: when he started in we called him Jock, 'cause, see, he eat up all the jam one day and his mother whipped him about it. We went to calling him Jock. Oh, do you remember way back yonder we read, we were reading about Jocko stealing the jam? We went to calling him Jocko. The whole place … I can't recall all the names we had over there.

BRENT GLASS:

Well you liked working there?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I liked to work there. They tried to get me to stay there when I quit. They told me, they said, "We need you." I said…

[TAPE 2, SIDE A]

[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]

BRENT GLASS:

Mr. Jones, I wanted to ask you: was there anybody else in the plant that asked for more money? Or was there ever any talk of a union or anything like that?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, that's right.

BRENT GLASS:

When was this? Do you remember that? Can you tell me something about it?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes, I remember. Let me see, how many plants were running then? One, two, three: three, yes. I remember now. You take the Number Two plant: they was full for a union.

BRENT GLASS:

For?

JOHNNIE JONES:

For it, yes; they were for it. And they had to have somebody to vouch for them, you see, and they wanted to know would I vouch. So I told them yes, I'd do it. So I went ahead and done it.

BRENT GLASS:

Excuse me, what union was this? Do you remember?

JOHNNIE JONES:

CIO, I believe; I believe that's what it was.

BRENT GLASS:

About how far back would this be? Before the Second World War, or after?

JOHNNIE JONES:

After, after. It ain't been too long, about ten or twelve years ago. I believe I was working two to ten then; I was there from two to ten. And I went on; I went around and got the men all together. I brought them in in bunches. Every plant I had them squaded off; they run in. And the way them votes went in, that's the way they came out. I told them, I said, "That's the way they went in. That's who's for the union, the way they went in. The way they called them out over there and the way they was counted," I said, "That's the way they went in." See, that's what they wanted: somebody to keep up with them. And a lady from the office,

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Mrs. Neal, and myself, we was checking on that.

BRENT GLASS:

Checking on the votes?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Yes.

BRENT GLASS:

Did you vote yourself?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I didn't vote.

BRENT GLASS:

Why?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Well, there was no need of me voting, 'cause I wasn't going for the union.

BRENT GLASS:

You weren't going to?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No, I wasn't going for it.

BRENT GLASS:

Why not?

JOHNNIE JONES:

I didn't want to have one. Well, I'll tell you: some places it's all right for a union. But a place like that, there wasn't no need for a union.

BRENT GLASS:

Why not?

JOHNNIE JONES:

Because you got anything you wanted. If you needed fifty dollars a day, you could go right there and get in. A union wasn't going to let you have it. If you wanted you a house built, you could get you a house built; they'd build it for you. You'd pay them just like you want to. Now this house right here, I built this house through the company. How much you think this house cost me?

BRENT GLASS:

To build? I don't know. When was it built?

JOHNNIE JONES:

In '40.

BRENT GLASS:

1940. So maybe something like three thousand dollars?

JOHNNIE JONES:

No sir, fifteen hundred dollars. And this land I got here, I didn't pay not a nickel for it. Now would a union have done that for me?

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You reckon it would?

BRENT GLASS:

Oh, I don't know.

JOHNNIE JONES:

And if any of your people went to the office and you didn't have no money to pay the bills you didn't have that to worry about. They'd pay you; you'd pay them just like you'd want to.

BRENT GLASS:

Yes. Why do you think the others went for the union then? Were they the younger fellows?

JOHNNIE JONES:

The you