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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
H-0311, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
The focus of this interview is a textile mill strike that appears to have taken place near Stoney Creek, TN. Robert Cole is not particularly forthcoming about details or reflections about the strike. This lack of depth is unfortunate, because Cole appears to have played an active role on both sides of the strike, initially crossing the picket line but soon thereafter joining the strikers and even serving as one of its organizers' bodyguards. Most of Cole's recollections concern some of the violence surrounding the strike, including fights, acts of terrorism, and shootings, none of which he participated in but for which he was arrested and tried. Researchers interested in labor clashes may find some useful material here.
Robert Cole recalls a violent strike in a textile mill located near the Tennessee-North Carolina border.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Well, tell me a little bit about your growing up days before we get into the strike. When were you born?
I was born February the 9th, 1900.
And where were you born?
This county, Carter County.
Were you born up on Stoney Creek?
Yes.
Was your father a farmer?
No, ma'am, he was a coal miner. He got killed in the coal mines.
Where was he a coal miner?
Stonegger, Virginia.
So all the time you were growing up, that's what he did for a
living?
[Discussion of picture of bus] It had a door for every seat … and it seated fifty-some, I don't know how many just exactly.
[A discussion of making copies of photographs] Did a lot of the people come into town and live in boarding houses that were working in the plant?
Lady, there was a few, not very many.
Most people would just … [reference to photograph] Says Johnson City on it.
I carried the mail to Johnson City. That was Crawford Grove that carried the mail in.
You carried the mail?
What are you doing, telling your life history?
No, I want to know. I'm interested in life histories, too.
There's nothing wrong about that, being a mail man.
Not too many people lived here, they just stayed up in their homes up in the other communities and came in on buses or taxies?
Yes. This bus, you see, it run off Stoney Creek, and it didn't haul all the people. There was different taxies and things that hauled the people that worked at the plant.
You didn't know a lot of people that lived in boarding houses?
They was a lot of'em that I didn't know. I don't remember having another picture of that bus. I know that a lady lives up on Stoney Creek, she asked me who all these people was, and at that time I could see to tell her who they was. She wanted to know if she could put it in the paper, give her picture. There ain't nothing wrong about it. I wouldn't care if I get the picture back.
Could I borrow this and have a copy made and bring it back to you?
Yes. When could I get it back now?
Well, I was thinking I could get Frank Robertson down at the Elizabethan
Star to make a copy of it for me, maybe on
Monday.
As long as you get the picture back. I don't want to separate from it.
I know you don't want to separate from it. [further discussion about making a copy of the picture] Is there anyone else involved in the strike that I could talk to?
Lady, I've got a sister that worked down there, and a brother-in-law. But my brother-in-law, he was against the strike. He was what I call a tight wad.
A tight wad?
When he got a hold of a nickel, he held on to it. He got back to work—he was out at the time of the strike. But, nevertheless, he got back and stayed until he was 65.
Was your sister pretty involved?
Yes, a right smart ways.
Where does she live?
She lives up on Stoney Creek.
Well, I'm going up to Stoney Creek to talk to Bob Moreland and his mother tomorrow. So maybe I could talk to your sister, too. What's her name?
Flossie Grindstaff. Now I tell you, she's got a telephone. You could call her and ask her if it would be all right for you to come. I'm going to tell you how to get there. [Directions]
Well, Mrs. Moreland can point me how to get there. What's her name?
Grindstaff, Flossie Grindstaff.
Do you know how to spell Stonegger?
No, lady, I don't.
And it was Macvay, Kentucky, where you worked?
Macvay.
The Hunter baseball team.
(something about the strike)
Ain't nothing bad about the strike.
You were a baby?
Uh-huh.
Do you remember people talking about the strike? Mr. Cole, were you on the negotiating committee? Did you ever meet with the owners of the mill when you were trying to settle the strike?
No.
Were you an officer in the union?
No. (more discussion about photographs)
What do you remember about how this strike got started?
Well, they just organized a union, lady.
When did you first hear about this union being organized?
Well, I had heard of it a few days before, and they's talking and they're all looking at it. I knew what was going on but I didn't have nothing to say either way. The reeling department was the department that done the striking to start with, and I had worked in the reeling department. I got transferred over to this other job, you see. So I had two brothers and a sister working in there at that time. I pretty well knowed what was going on.
And it was the reeling department that first went out on strike?
They went over in the final inspection and got a lot of them out. They had it pretty rough that day.
What happened?
A pretty rough time that day. There was a little bit of fighting done. I had a table and a chair that I sat in, and I was advised to stay there. To see what went on, you see, that was through the company. And I did; I sat right there in that chair, watched what was going on. I seen a whole lot of it, too.
What all happened that day?
They worked one another a little bit with pipes, lead pipes, you see.
Little bit of fighting. And the (
Why did the people in the reeling department go out on strike?
They wasn't making no money. Eleven dollars a week and I'd say the biggest part of 'em paid car fare, taxi fare. Up on Stoney Creek where I live it was costing them two-and-a-half or three dollars a week to get back and forth to work.
Was there actually a local union already set up?
They had a union set up.
Who organized the union?
I don't remember their names.
Were they people who worked here in the plant?
They didn't work in the plant. Course, I did a lot of talking, you know. Passed back and forth through the plant. The started of it didn't work in the plant at all.
Have you heard of a man named John Penix?
Yes, I knowed him.
Some of the articles I've read say he was one of the organizers?
Yes.
Is he still alive?
No, he's dead.
He was a carpenter here in town, or something, wasn't he?
Well, I never seen him work a lick in my life. I don't know what he done. And then they got a big fleshy fellow come in from North Carolina.
Alfred Hoffman?
That's right. So he took over. I was with him some backwards and forwards, and they kidnapped him at the Lynnwood Hotel and took him to North Carolina and told him not to come back. And I went after him, me and some more people, and we got him and brought him back to Elizabethton.
How did you know he'd been kidnapped or where he was?
Well, he called us and let us know they rook him to the North Carolina line, and let him out and told him not to come back. I don't know what they said to him, I wasn't there and I couldn't say. But he come back and we met him at the North Carolina line. We brought him on in and I stayed with him pretty regular.
To protect him?
Yes, I was what they called a bodyguard.
How did you get that job?
how did I get it?
Uh-huh. why were you doing that?
To protect him.
What was he like?
He was a great big fleshy fellow, weighed about 300 pounds or more.
Really?
Yeah, he was a big man. He didn't go back to his hotel, he went to another place over there. I don't know the man's name now. Anyhow, he run a restaurant and had good rooms upstairs. He got him a room and I got one alongside of it. They paid for the room.
Did people like him?
Oh, yes. They liked him fine. Then he left from here and went to Marion, North Carolina, and had a strike up there at Marion. And I was in on that.
No let's go back a little ways. The first date the people in the—oh, just one other question about John Penix. Was he just a local man?
Yes, he was. He lived down there.
Do you know anything about his background or why he was organizing the union?
No.
Do you know anybody that might know about him, that I might be able to talk to?
No, I don't.
So, what happened there after that first day? Inspection and reeling department went out and then what happened?
They was out for a few days, I don't remember just how long, nevertheless they got a bunch of troops in here and had some arrested. A bunch of troops in here, and there was a man that run a store here in Elizabethton that was over them named Bob Johnson. They did a little bit of shooting on the highway one time.
Who shot who?
Nobody didn't get shot, tires got shot at trying to stop them from coming to work. One man got on the witness stand at the trial and showed his bullets that was shot through his tire and didn't puncture the inner-tube. The bullet had battered against the wheel on the inside. Now he swore something that wasn't so.
How did you first get involved? Did you join the union?
Yes, I did.
When did you join?
I didn't join the union until a day or two after the strike.
What made you decide to join up?
Well, I just thought we were all due more pay money. They wasn't paying us enough. They was working us for nothing. Now you think about working fifty-six hours for eleven dollars. That's what they were paying them down there then in the reeling department. I was making $29.40 so I just felt like they did. I worked a day after they come in. The boss man got a little smart with me.
What did the boss man say to you?
I was a little late getting in. You see, they had a picket line, and I
had a little trouble getting through. Finally I got through, went on in,
and he told me he wouldn't stand for that. I
Where was the union headquarters?
It was on East Street as well as I can remember, between the drug store and the railroad.
So you didn't come back into work after the first day?
No, I didn't go back—I don't remember just how long.
So tell me what went on, then. Were there big meetings in the tabernacle?
Oh, yeah, there were big crowds. Lady, I was mistaken. It was right after you come off the river bridge on the left hand side coming towards the monument, and we had a place upstairs.
Where was the tabernacle? Wasn't it called the tabernacle where the big meetings were held? Never heard of it? It was at the foot of Lynn Mountain.
This is Lynn Mountain right here.
Where were big rallies and meetings held?
That was right where I was just telling you—upstairs between the bridge and the monument.
Wasn't there some place where they had big meetings?
Big meetings?
Uh-huh.
At the place I was telling you.
Well, I have read that there was a place built for revivals and they used it to have big meetings where several thousand people would come and listen to the union organizers speak. You don't remember anything like that?
Now, there were several of the union people. I always called them big men. There was Hoffman, and the president of the Union, Green. They was different ones. They just stayed at the hotel.
They didn't give speeches to big crowds of people?
No, they didn't turn just everybody in. Where we was sitting—we didn't turn nobody in, only them that had joined the union. Course, we turned the bog shots in, but we didn't turn this, that or the other in.
About how many people joined the local?
Lady, I couldn't tell you.
Did you go out on the picket line every day?
No, I didn't go every day. I wasn't on the picket line none, hardly. Now my brother was on it every day and every night. He was on the picket line. And he was the first one over the fence when it come up that they broke in on them down there. He was the first one over the fence.
Were your sisters working at the plant?
I had one sister working there, yes.
Did she get involved?
Well, she joined the union. I never remember her being on picket duty.
Why didn't you go out on picket duty?
I was with this fellow they called Hoffman. And that time that this happened, that they went over the fence, they had one warrant after the other for me. I had eighteen cases in court. I was in Johnson City to meet President Green when they went over the fence. Out of eighteen cases they only fined me on one case. The judge offered me a new hearing on that one without my lawyer asking him. One swore I'd done the shooting down there. One swore I had an automatic gun, another swore I had an old Russian-looking gun. This lady got up on the witness stand and swore I had a bright pistol. And she swore the truth. I had a .38 Special. It was nickel plated. She told the truth about it but the other two fellows lied.
What else did you have a warrant for?
Lady, I don't know what all they did have warrants for me for. Just for carrying the gun is all they ever did fine me for at all. And they offered me a new hearing on that and the man said no, said we'll just pay it off. It didn't cost me anything.
The union paid it?
Uh-huh. (Side one ends; side two begins)
Did you get arrested?
Well, no.
What was that about?
That was the last shooting.
For shooting the ties? Were you tried for that? What happened?
They convicted me.
How come?
They didn't have the right kind of evidence. I never did take the witness stand, that was the problem. Ben Allen was Attorney General. He said he was going to send me to the penitentiary, and I told him he wasn't sending me nowhere. And he didn't. I knowed to tell the truth to the law, lady. Now at the time of this strike they had a tag day in Asheville, North Carolina, and I was sent up there. Hoffman, he was up there in the hospital, sick or something. I was in charge of that tag day up there, we're talking 1300 and something dollars.
What did you do to raise money?
We had a tag day there, you see. Bunch of girls out on the street passing the cup. I had met with all their locals up there, they had different locals—carpenters, pipe fitters, and so on and so forth. Brick Masons. I was up there two weeks before we had the tag day. And having the tag day we took up 1300 dollars in one day.
Had you had any experience with unions before, like when you were working in a coal mine?
I had joined a union in the coal mines, but I had never been out on a strike. They had a strike, and I left the coal mine to come home. When it was over with I went back.
Was that in Virginia or Kentucky?
That was in Kentucky.
I know people went up and blocked the roads into Gap Creek.
That's right, that's what they call a picket line.
Were any women involved in that?
Lady, I wasn't out there at that time, and I don't know if there was any women in it or not.
Were there women that got arrested for these various—
Not that I know of. It looked like they had it in for me more than
anybody else. Now, my brother was guilty of half I was tried for. They
just got the names mixed up. They tried me for several things, you see.
Now, I'll tell it to you like this, lady. I knew what was
coming in, and I knew what my brother had been into. I wasn't
out there with him, but we had our (
Where are you getting this information for?
Well, I'm writing an article about the strike.
I just wanted to know.
It's not going to be anything around here, not in the newspapers or anything like that.
I was in ever bit of that strike, (
Why was there so much fighting during the strike?
I don't know, just cross up somewhere I reckon. I wasn't in none of the fights.
How did your mother feel about all of you being involved in the strike?
She was for the strike, too.
What about your neighbors and friends?
They was for it, too. There was a few up there that was against it. Everybody knowed they was working us for nothing.
What about the merchants in town? Were they for it or against it?
Lady, there was some for it and some against it.
Would you say that the people most active in the strike were people that lived in a certain place, like people from Stoney Creek?
They was from Stoney Creek, Gap Creek, Rone Mountain. They was from everywhere. There was people that came from Bristol, but they stopped that bus.
How did the strike finally come to an end?
Well, they got less hours, and they got a little raise. Course, there were people that went in there that took our jobs, a lot of them. I didn't go back to work, and I know several that didn't go back to work. I had a first cousin go in and take my job. He done the work that two of us was doing. (discussion with child)
Lady, I'm practically blind. I had cataracts on my eyes and I had them removed, and then they hemorrhaged in the eye afterward.
I think this is a picture of you working on the roof of the plant.
Yes, that's it. I was foreman; I was assistant foreman. This fellow with the white shirt on was the foreman.
Do you have any other pictures of the strike or anything? Were you in favor of ending the strike and going back to work?
No. If they would give us what we asked, yes.
They didn't give you what you asked?
No, they went against that, you see. I didn't go back at all.
Was there a meeting where you had a vote and decided you would go back to work?
Yes, we had a hall. I'd say that there was some of us there practically every night.
Was there a meeting that you said, yes, we will go back to work?
I wasn't there. I wasn't in the meetings as much as the rest of them. I was with Hoffman practically everywhere he went. He had a nice automobile.
What kind of automobile did he have?
It was a Buick Coupe. It had that little extra seat, you see, in the back. It was a nice automobile. (to child about photograph)
What kinds of things did Alfred Hoffman do to get people interested in the union?
He just talked to us is all I know.
Would he go to their houses?
No, he generally talked to them at the union hall. There was times when just anybody could get in when they wasn't having a meeting. They could go anywhere upstairs.
Did other people go around and try to get more people to join the union?
Yes, and some went around and tried to get them to lay out the union. They was some that worked one side and some the other.
What kind of people were against the union, and why were they against it?
Lady, I just can't understand that as to why people didn't want them to have a union and get paid for their work. I never did have to pay no union dues until I went back this last time to the mill to work, and then I had to pay so much a week.
What kinds of things did they say against the union?
Some said that the workers didn't want to work, some would say one thing, some another. I think they blowed up the water line that came in Elizabethton during that strike.
Did the strikers blow up the water main?
Yes, I'd say it was the strikers that done it. I wasn't there, but I'd say it was the strikers.
Why did they do it?
To cut the water off.
What did they think would happen? Why did they think that would help?
Well, I don't know what they thought about it. They cut the water off in Elizabethton and that would stop them all.
And that did what?
Would stop them all. The water came from up here in Hampton.
That would stop the plants from running?
Yes.
Did anyone talk about blowing up the plants themselves?
Not that I know of. There was one man that got his house blowed up, but I don't know who did that.
Was he a striker or a non-striker?
He was with the strikers, but he wasn't working at the plant.
You don't know who blew up his house?
No.
You were married at the time, weren't you?
Yes.
Was your wife working at the plant?
No.
Well, what did she think about you being Hoffman's bodyguard and getting arrested?
She didn't have anything at all to say. Now I've been married twice, and that was my first wife. My wife here, she didn't know anything at all about it.
Your first wife?
My first wife. WE was living down here in Elizabethton in Black Bottom when it happened.
Where is Black Bottom?
that's in-between the highway and the river going towards Johnson City.
Why is it called Black Bottom?
I don't know, lady, why they ever called it Black Bottom. Now, there ain't no colored people that lives down there. That was just the name they had for it, Black Bottom. They had different names for the streets. I lived on Mulberry Street.
So your wife didn't say anything about this?
No, she didn't have nothing to say in any way.
She wasn't scared that you were going to get hurt or in trouble?
No. She knowed I went prepared all the time.
Did a lot of people carry guns?
Yes, a lot of them carried guns.
Did people usually carry guns, even when nothing was going on?
No.
Did you just buy the gun after the strike broke out?
Just during the strike, just about everybody—not just about everybody, but there was a lot of 'em.
Did you know about this group called the "Loyal Workers" that was against the strike?
No.
(some mumbling about guns)
Is this you at the time of the strike, do you think? You've got a gun?
No, that wasn't at the time of the strike. Now these two boys here, one of them is a second cousin of mine and the other is a boyfriend that he rode around with all the time. That was took at a church. Now see that pair of steps there? That was took at the church house. Wasn't made at the time of the strike, though. I think I was deputy sheriff when that was taken.
You became deputy sheriff? When was that?
That was right shortly after the strike. I became a deputy under Moreland. After he went out of office—he was out two years, maybe longer, I don't just remember how long he was out—a fellow by the name of Tom Nave was elected sheriff, and I was under him four years.
Sheriff Moreland was pretty much for the strike wasn't he?
Yes, he was. He was a whole lot for it. He was in sympathy. He come down
on the highway when the shooting took place. He searched me twice, and
never did find my gun. I had one. And they had this militia down there,
you see, of soldier boys. And a man pointed me out and said,
"That's the man who got the gun."
That's why he searched me a second time. And I
I should say.
They brought some soldiers to the court house. Had one on each side of the door with their guns crossed over. When I went up to the door they wasn't going to let me in. I pushed them back and went on in. I said this is a county, public building. You've got no business standing here. And I went on in. when they got in there they wasn't going to let them out. I came back out and they never said yep to me, nary a one of them.
Did you feel that Judge Ben Allen was pretty fair in these trials?
Judge Ben Allen? He was the attorney general.
So he was prosecuting?
Yes, he was prosecuting. He made it as hard on us as he could. He came to be a judge later on.
Who was judge at the time?
Vines.
What kind of treatment did he give you?
He was a fair man.
He was a fine man?
Yes, he was. He was a fine man and a fair man.
You thought he was pretty fair?
Yes, I did.
Did you know of any Pinkerton Detectives around? Detectives that the company hired?
There was one fellow here, they called him "slick" all
the time. I always figured him as a spy. He took Hoffman's
car and went off with it one day. I was in charge of
Hoffman's car. He was in the hospital, and he told me to keep
his car. I parked the car and he got in it, went off. I found out where
it was at, and I went out and took the car. And he shot two shots, but
he didn't shoot the car or me, neither one. I got out, went
back and took his pistol, and gave
Let's see. What do you think this is? Which one is your grandfather? I don't know what that is.
I ain't in that picture. that's just a picture of boyfriends that hung around.
Did you know of a woman named Trixie Perry?
I don't remember Trixie Perry. I knowed some Perrys during that, and Trixie is familiar.
I've heard she was a local girl and she was real involved in the strike. I think her father maybe was a butcher, or had a store.
I don't know lady, but Trixie Perry. Since you mention it, I
hadn't thought of her in years and years. But that name is
familiar. I know that I know Trixie Perry. Now, she lived on Gap Creek.
She had a brother, Bob, and a brother, John. John was in on the strike.
And Bob was (
Well, do you think that most of the bombings and car burnings and things like that—was that done by the strikers or the non-union people?
What?
Did some of the strikers get their houses burned or get threatened?
I don't know of any houses that got burnt. That one that get dynamited and blowed up the only one I know anything about. I don't know nothing about how it happened, but I do know that it blowed all to pieces.
What did you do when you didn't go back to work?
I was driving the bus.
You were driving the bus.
I used to drive a bus out of Bristol, over here to Elizabethton and then up to Stoney Creek.
(referring to picture) Is this your bus?
Yes, that's the bus I drove. it's an old timey, ain't it?
Sure is.
It had a door for every seat.
This is the bus you drove after that?
Yes. (more discussion about buses)
Are you in this picture?
Lady, I'm so blind I can't tell, but I was sitting on the steps right there. I ain't got on nothing but a driver's cap. That picture was took on Stoney Creek and this one, too. But a different company. The Stoney Creek bus company sold out the little bus that was there, but he was the older busman. Down from Bristol to Blue Field and over to Johnson City and over her to Elizabethton. After he sold out for this he raised my wages and put me to driving. You see, I was just going up and down the creek at that time. But when he took over he put me in a more responsible position.
Is this the kind of bus—
That's the bus, that's the bus they rose, yes. Now, there was a door for every seat.
END OF INTERVIEW