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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
K-0010, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Nancy Holt grew up in North Carolina's Cane Creek community, where the land played a large role in her upbringing. Despite the physical distances between them, neighbors often cooperated with each other, especially when they felt their community's existence to be in jeopardy. School and church were also important anchors for the community, she says, adding that her family's self-sufficiency informed her own sense of familial responsibility. Holt discusses the differences between Chapel Hill and Cane Creek, noting the relative isolation of the latter, where traditional values and folk wisdom were preserved over generations. Holt describes Cane Creek as largely insular, but she explains that newcomers were welcome. Both groups found common cause when the University of North Carolina and Orange County Water and Sewer Authority (OWASA) attempted to build a reservoir in Cane Creek. Holt grew frustrated by the lack of political clout local residents had in the face of more politically powerful UNC and OWASA officials. She also discusses the fear tactics OWASA employed to scare residents into selling their land. Holt consequently joined the Cane Creek Conservation Authority as a lobbyist and fundraiser. She used her position with the organization to highlight the damaging effects of a reservoir in the Cane Creek community—economically, socially, and environmentally.
Nancy Holt, raised in North Carolina's Cane Creek community and a member of the Cane Creek Conservation Authority, discusses the reaction of the community when UNC and the Orange County Water and Sewer Authority attempted to build a reservoir in Cane Creek.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I think I'd like to start out talking about maybe your childhood and growing up in this area and things like how many, how much of your family lived here and what kind of relationship you had with other people in the neighborhood and that sort of thing.
There was twelve children in our family and, we, because there were no
other children in this area and because of the isolation that most
people maintained then except on Saturdays and Sundays and in times of
need. The unique thing about this community I think is that you -
there's not alot of exchange and visiting on a regular basis,
but if there is a definite need, you can be sure that the neighbors will
come in to help whether it is raising a barn or helping at the time of
death or illness. But as children, our first real social contact other
than church was at school. And we had, of course living on a, a small
farm having that many children, your summers were pretty well taken up
with preserving food and doing all sorts of things that were necessary
to get back to the point that you were ready for another winter. And it
truly was a seasonal kind of life. Our closest neighbors, of course, was
the Armstrongs and I can remember as a child going down there and
hearing the guinea hens way before you could get there. And Miss Dinah,
Coy Armstrong's mother, was an elegant lady with of lots of
white hair all piled up on her head and if she would let down her hair
it would come to the back of her heels - beautiful, beautiful woman. And
then the Bradshaws and the Apples around here. We all knew each other.
It
You went to your grandparent's house?
No, they all came here. Our grandparents, my husb… - my
dad's - family and my mom's both were mountain
people. Dad was Cherokee and something and mother was, my mother was
Scotch and Irish. And they lived on a little - an original land grant -
in, around Valdese. So we came here shortly before I was born so
I've, I've lived here all my life.
What, which town did you usually go to?
We generally went to either Mebane or to Burlington, or Graham - never went to Burlington, that was a big city time. And I generally never went to town except once right before school started.
To get your school clothes?
Uh-huh. No, to get your school shoes. Shoes was the only thing we didn't have. All the other clothes were made.
Where did you buy the cloth?
They were feed sacks. And feed sacks used to be beautiful. Absolutely.
You would have stripes, flowers, you know all sorts of stuff. You would
So you just raised everything.
Yeah. We didn't eat a whole lot of meat. The only meat we had was pork, and, maybe some chicken. But you didn't eat a whole lot of your chickens unless they had already got old enough to stop laying eggs and then you had chicken pie. So it, it was very elemental. And I think we had a direct cause and effect in our life. You do this so this will happen or so, so these things will be taken care. And I think it was an excellent way to perceive life. It gave you a direct responsibility for what happened.
You knew if you didn't …
If you did not prepare enough canned vegtables or whatever, then you
wouldn't have enough to eat. It was, it was just that basic.
And I remember my father, although he had one leg and he had a wooden
leg, he would go hunting. And I loved rabbit and squirrel stew and we
ate all that stuff. He couldn't bring himself to shoot birds,
so we never had
What kinds of other social things did they have at the church?
You would have an ice cream supper, occasionally. Always a Christmas pageant. And of course the other religious holidays, the Easter types of things. Bible school during the summer, maybe a fall festival. It, there was - there were something generally year around. If there was somebody in the neighborhood having a, a bad time we would give 'em a pounding.
I don't know what that is.
A pounding is - I don't know where it comes from - but
it's, it's like you sharing a pound of flour, a
pound of cornmeal, a pound of sugar. Everybody contributing some kind of
staple or, and foodstuff. So it -
So the church sort of was an outlet for people to help other people?
Um-uhm, um-uhm. And it was, I think it was acceptable through the church. Whereas it may not have been totally acceptable if the neighbors got together and went to help poor old so-and-so that was having problems, because there was a lot of pride here. And I think one of the reasons that there was not a lot of social contact between families is to preserve this kind of innate dignity and privacy, that you still see in some of the families here that - now they may be the biggest brawlers in the world, but they close ranks if, if something has been, somebody has been threatened, and you know, the family as a whole feels threatened. They most definitely will close ranks. So, I think it was probably like a lot of the other very, very rural areas. And the thing that I think is unique is being so close to Chapel Hill. And Chapel Hill was always viewed with a jaundiced eye out here because it had those strange people that weren't from here, did not have generally the same values, generally did not understand.
What values, how do you think the values differed?
Well, first of all they live all clustered up together. That was one. And
you never knew - and I think it even goes back to that basic thing I was
talking about, the cause and effect. A real tie with the land and a real
tie with what we considered the, the way to live. And I think perhaps
they held the same view of other people in the surrounding areas. But I
think perhaps Chapel Hill most of all because it was like a transient
thing. How could these people establish values when they're
And they really weren't before?
Well, they were on a one-on-one basis. Probably a little, a little group
here that if you, if one of the newcomers came in, they were friendly
with everybody there, but the whole neighborhood as a whole did not even
know these people. So it had the net effect of making it a very, very
cohesive group of very diverse people that ordinarily would not had a
thing in common. And, I would say that it's probably the
greatest thing that's happened to this community in a hundred
years. The positive effect of everybody pulling together and getting to
know your neighbors that lived way on the other side of Cane Creek when
you wouldn't have had - ordinarily have had - a chance nor
any community event that would draw all these people. Because the church
in the last twenty years has stopped being the center, of any activity.
Only those people that goes to this church have these activities. It -
very seldom do the churches throw open their doors and have a community
wide
Why do you think the new people were as concerned about the lake as the old people were?
Because, they came here for a reason. And that reason most generally was
not to be part of another housing development. They have probably made a
big, lifetime investment and they had planned to stay. And the community
was attractive to them as it was or they wouldn't have been
here. And so all of a sudden the rules were changing - everything is
going to be different? And I think I probably would have been
[mobilized] just as much had I been a newcomer as I was being a lifelong
resident. Good, it's a good, feeling community. I went away
when Bruce and I were first married and prior to getting married, I
lived other places. And it didn't have the same feel. And I
had always considered it because this was home. That's why I
had this feeling. Now my husband will even admit that this is a good
area; it feels good. The, there's a certain something here,
an acceptance, that perhaps in where he came from in southern Alamance
county there was not. That it took fifty years for somebody to be
accepted. You know, they were viewed as outlanders and, and people that
were just upstarts in the
So, about anybody that moved here, if they were friendly and joined the church, could make friends and be accepted.
Um-uhm, um-uhm. That was, that was never a problem. But you see we never had an influx of these people here because the only people that generally came into the community married into it. And so sons and daughters got some of the family land and they built on it. And then their children. And so that's the way - it was like a community population.
So you - the friends, when you came back after you were married, the friends you made were the friends you had had before?
Um-uhm. There had been some shifting of, of who was here and who was gone
and there had been the - one of the greatest tragedies, we felt, shortly
before we came back, was that the Perrys had lost their dairy farm; they
had gone bankrupt. And all of this land through here, all the way over
to the corner of the Oak Grove Church Road, parts of it and parcels of
that was the Perrys'. And they were like the cornerstone here
and all of a sudden, you know, they couldn't make it as a
dairy farm any longer. And their children moved away, except for Joe and
Your family, they didn't have a dairy farm?
Uh-unh, uh-unh.
What kinds of things did they do?
My father was - for a while ran a sawmill. And, then he worked after he sold the sawmill back in, at the end of the war [World War II], worked for Kearny Rogers who was another member of the community. So, …
So, your farm was …
Well, it was, it was small. It was just enough to sustain a family of
twelve.
Is there sort of a class scheme around here, do you sort of think there's a …
No, I think there's a behavior scheme. I don't
think class has anything to do with it. I think it's, your
social acceptability, is based on your behavior. If you go out and get
drunk on Saturday night and raise hell, then you're not as
acceptable as if you went to the ice cream
You were as acceptable as somebody with more money if …
I think so, because I was smart. You know, and, and if you - they
appreciated people that had smarts. Now, I don't know whether
somebody that did not get the DAR award and stuff like that, how
acceptable they would be. One of the greatest influences in my life was
[Margaret] Stanford, the first grade teacher. And she made me
competitive. And
What grades were there?
The first through the eighth. First and second in one room, third and
fourth in the next, and. The great thing about it was that if you were
sharp, you didn't have to go anywhere you'd just
go sit in with the
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
… Brian had any problems with acceptance. It was just like you
picked up your threads again, and kept on moving. And I think the
greatest fear in the community is these threads will be broken. I also
realized with some great horror that we're getting to be the
older generation, for God's sakes. I'm still a
baby. And I realized that the people that I had always felt were the
elders of the community are dying and we're the next in line.
And where in the hell are we going to get the wisdom, that I always felt
these people had? You know, we're just struggling too. And I
thought, well maybe wisdom and, and perception are two completely
separate things. Maybe you don't have to be wise, just
everybody think you're wise.
I thought maybe you would tell me a little bit about how you and Bruce met and, and your work and moving back here?
Because there was so many people in the family we learned early that if
you wanted anything other than the, the shelter, food and clothing, you
had to go get it yourself. So I started to work when I was fourteen. And
during high school I drove the school bus and I worked at Colonial
Store, which was a grocery store, and went to school. And then after I
graduated I was making plans to go to college and I'd saved
up all my money, so I would have enough for the first year at Elon. And,
the store closed, and one of the members from Byrd's Food
Center came to Colonial Store and wanted my sister and myself to come to
work for them. She choose not to and I needed the money. I was eighteen
at that
Did they still have the White Cross school?
No, White Cross had closed, so they went to Hillsborough, went to
Well, so what do you - the community still have sort of community feeling when you moved back that you had when you were a child?
Um-hum, um-hum. See nothing had changed. There may have been more family members living here. And one or two people had moved in from the outside, but essentially the community had remained unchanged. There were still family farms, the big family farms, you knew who was here, you had no problem knowing the values of the community because they hadn't changed. You may have had a new preacher or two, people had gotten older, some of the elderly folks had died off. Nothing had changed; it was still the same community. No, it was still the same. Nothing had changed. There's - and that may have been all in my head, because I was coming back home. But I didn't sense it; I didn't, I didn't feel any change. And it wasn't as if I had to re-acclimate myself to the community. I was just here. And I had brought my family back.
You sort of still shopped in the same places and …
Um-hum, um-hum. But you see, I never had that feeling about Chapel Hill;
I was always fascinated by it. And I loved to walk the streets of Chapel
Hill in the fall, and it was, it was just a vitality there that
So did you ever, you did get to go to college down there?
Well, off and on. Between kids and
I think that's the best reason for going to school. You have two businesses now. Health Office Support.
Office Support Systems. We changed the name in '83 so we can take care of commercial clients as opposed to all medical. And the Cactus Medical Group, which is the software development company. And the other one is management consultant company. And we have been doing that for ten years.
We?
Three other ladies from the community. Well, two of the other ones from
right across Haw River. That's, they're still part
of - Eli Whitney is an extended part of this community because we never
felt any separation. Eli Whitney, because the feed mill over there, and
the vet was there and, and that's a real strong recreational
center. There was really no difference. I never felt any crossing of
lines, community
I sort of heard that there's sort of three different areas - isn't there something called Teer and Oaks and Orange Grove? Doesn't, doesn't that make up Cane Creek?
Yeah.
But you, you sort of see the whole area as one community…
Yeah, yeah. Never, never has - you see, we didn't even know
that these things were called Oaks, Teer and Cane Creek until somebody
from the outside told us. It's like when I went to school I
came home one day and I said "Mama, what's
poor?" She said "Why?" I said
"Somebody told me I was poor today." And
it's like having to go to school to find out you
weren't rich, cause we'd never given it any
thought. And until somebody from the outside came in and told us we were
three separate communities, hell, we didn't know it.
I guess you sort of felt like four [communities in one] then?
Yeah. I don't - there was no great separation at all, it just
was. It was home. The only separation that I could see was in the city
limits, where those people lived right next to each other, all scrunched
up together, which we thought was strange. Cause you need more space
then that. But no, there was never - the only lines that you could ever
say was the church boundaries. But it really had nothing to do with I am
from Teer or I am from Oaks. We didn't even know we were Teer
and Oaks. Just really did not. And Cane Creek. Because it was church
centered. You had Bethlehem, which was a Presbyterian church; you had
Oak Grove
You said the church was more a social place, but when they did talk about religion what kinds of things …
I don't think anybody bothered talking about religion. It just
was. It was one of those givens. And I think it was such an integral
part that was woven into your lives, that it had no special significance
because you either - it permeated everything you did, or you
didn't go. And it was just like eating, sleeping - Sunday you
went to church. Just that simple. And I don't think anybody
ever bothered talking about religion, maybe it was a personal thing, I
don't know. I can remember asking some embarrassing questions
when I was around sixteen. But that - I thought I knew all the answers
then, which, which was asinine.
What kinds of questions?
First of all, the conflict between the Old and the New Testament. I
couldn't resolve that. On the one hand it's an eye
for an eye and on the other hand it was love everybody. And I thought,
now that's silly. I can't love everybody.
I'd be a hypocrite. And so these - and I guess it was, I was
trying to form my own philosophy and my own personal feelings; and they
just kind of went - and, and looked at me, "Why are
Maybe they didn't want to deal with them.
Well, they had probably heard it before; I don't think I was that unique, in asking those question. I'm sure young people have asked these questions millions of times before. But I was real perplexed, because I couldn't - all of a sudden I'd run up against something that had no answer. And I think - they said you had to believe. And I thought I don't know what to believe. And so, as most teenagers do, I went through a period where I decided religion had no value. You know, it just - well if they can't answer my questions, pppt with it. And then, like Mark Twain says at sixteen his father - when he was sixteen his father was rather dumb and didn't know anything and when he was eighteen he was amazed at how much the old man had learned, in such a short time. Well I'm kind of that way too. You know, just the arrogance of youth sometimes blows my mind and I see it in my own children and, and this being the, almost like the teen center of the community, for the young boys.
Your house?
Yes. I never know from one day to the next how many kids will be here,
how many will be sleeping here. Which is fine with me. I'd
rather they know that they have somewhere to go. They can come here on
Friday night and fix pizzas and sit down and have rap sessions and do
all of the things, that are acceptable to the household rules here,
which is no alcohol, you know. It's, it's a haven.
I've had kids to stay three months. The - when Mike graduated
I had three kids to ask me if they
Mama, my mother always adopted two or three too.
Yeah. I've, I've probably fed - when Bruce was
working at UNC before he retired, he used to bring home students. They
would be students that had a special project or, or that he had met and
he always picked up hitchhikers and he would bring people home. And I
never knew any night how many, people would be here for dinner. It
depended on how many people standing along the side of the road wanted a
lift home.
Well, you've talked a little bit about the Reservoir. I was sort of saving that controversial thing for towards the end. Did you ever get involved in the Cane Creek Conservation Authority?
From the first. I was the lady that made all the biscuits, that put all
the ham in it for seven, I guess, seven years. Bruce and I were very,
very actively involved in everything that went on.
What do you know about the alternatives that they rejected?
They rejected the alternatives of the - using the Jordan as a water
source. And I thought it was awfully arrogant. They said that the people
of Chapel Hill were too good to drink the water out of there. Well they
should - the people in Bynum ought to come over here and smacked
'em. Cause Bynum's been drinking it for damn
years. The, the long-term planning should be communities pulling
together and sharing resourses of a water supply. Not putting these
random temporary water supplies in a community and destroying it. Just
look what the Jordon - how many thousands of acres is available there.
It's time for people to start, the planners, to start
thinking in long-term instead of short-term. Now if this were - I think
one of the reasons that everybody got so angry is that they made it
blatantly clear that this was only a short-term water supply. They
weren't even looking at it over the long haul at all. So you
disrupt twenty year - I mean two
What about the University Lake alternative?
The thing that really ticked me off about that is that some man offered to dredge it out, free, to get all the silt out. All he wanted was that silt. He offered to dredge University Lake so it could accomodate more water and therefore alleviate some of Chapel Hill's needs. Free. And he was turned down flat.
Why, why do you think he was?
Because this was their plan. One of the things I've learned in business, and I've run across two other people like these folks - they don't hear anything except the things that they want to hear. It's tunnel vision at its finest. These are the people that you put in charge of projects. Because they don't hear any adverse reasoning; they don't hear anything else. If you went to a meeting with …
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Nancy Holt requested a brief delay in beginning this tape for "off the record" comments.
Someone suggested, I think it was a student in the class, that it was a, it was a political thing on the part of the University.
Yeah, it was. You see the University had been told to get out of the
utilities business. But they never got out of it. They never stopped
being a powerful force. And whatever the University wanted, they got.
And don't ever forget that for a minute because they are the
political force to be reckoned with and they as a col… - in
my mind, a collective group of very, very powerful political figures.
And whatever they want they jolly well get. And so they have a temporary
lake out here, the beginnings of a temporary lake. Probably one of the
things that irritated me the most, was people selling real estate out
here as lake front property. Seven years ago. It was ads in the Chapel
Hill papers, about beautiful lake front property in the Cane Creek
region. And I thought, there's no lake there, how dare you?
But we're - we just did not have the powerful backing. I
would suspect that had this community contained the Ralph Scotts, or the
William Fridays, Jim Martins, or the Rose family - some of the other
families that are very, very strong politically, they would never have
looked at this community. Never. But we had no real strong political
figures out here. We were just as mediocre, middle-of-the-road, middle
America as you can get. Not real, real pro-active in anything, except
generally taking
I think the Teers are the last farm that's sort of holding out.
Um-hum.
They own land that will be flooded and haven't sold yet, so I understand.
Right.
What do you think's going to happen?
Well I'll tell you. The methodology of OWASA was deplorable.
In order to get the people to sell they used fear. And they went after
the weakest links first. They went after the widowers, the lady widows,
the elderly. And to me that is inexcusable. If you want a business
arrangement and you want to negotiate, you negotiate straight out.
Don't play on the fear of these people. All you have to do is
to say to some elderly woman "Well, the courts'll
take it away from you." And immediately, to these people,
courts are the next thing to jail. And taking something away from you.
The first two people that sold land here were recent [widows], [Gina
McKiver and Pat Cates]. And it was the
Do you thing the Teers are going to have to end up selling?
Well you see one of the things OWASA did was lie to everybody and
everybody's not stupid out here. They said "Now we
will not tell you you can't have dairy farms out
here." Of course they won't tell you, the
EPA'll tell you. You can't have cow shit running
into a water source. You know, we're not stupid. But, some of
the people
But they've been fighting quite a while. And I imagine that's an economic drain as well.
Well, Thomas and Evelyn have poured everything that they've
got. I expect they've depleted their capital reserves in
order to help pay for these attorneys. And, you'll have to
verify this with Thomas but, I think he had placed a bid on the land
that OWASA was going to buy from
Were there any people in the community that weren't really opposed to the Reservoir?
Yeah. They were the ones that - some of the elderly widowers that sold
out first - said "You can't fight 'em.
Can't fight 'em." Of course the
Stanfords, which were the ones that brought them in here in the first
place, there's a lot of animousity toward them. And they
tried to straddle the fence after it became a, a reality. From what
I've heard, and I can't prove this, that Joyce
Stanford, [Bill] Stanford's wife, went to OWASA. Their dairy
farm was having some problems. Went to OWASA and said this would be a
perfect place for a dam. Now this is hearsay. I can't prove
it. Then, that gave them, you know - it kind of focused them on the
community. And then after OWASA started looking out here, they acted
like they didn't want them here. But their farm was in
trouble. And they made out like damn bandits. They sold out to them.
Nobody will tell you exactly what it was but I've heard
estimates up to four million. So they truly bailed themselves out of a
difficult situation. But they rather became piranhas. You never hear of
Bill and Joyce Stanford being invited to any of the community affairs.
If there's a pig picking in the community, you never see Bill
and Joyce
I have one thing I'm interested in, that I didn't get to right in the early part if, if you sort of think we're finished with the Cane Creek for a minute. I was, I heard your grandfather was a root doctor.
Well, it's awfully hard to know whether you could classify him as that or what you could do. You see when we were growing up, all twelve kids, we never used any commercial medicines, except for some kind of horse liniment. Every cough syrup, everything was handled through herbs and, and things. And, it came from my mother. And you see I never knew my grandfather so I never knew the connection. And whether he was a root doctor or not. And in the mountains you never think of anybody being a root doctor; everybody does it. So it's all part of that culture that we brought down here. And I still use these home remedies with my children and with all the other kids.
Could you tell me about some of them?
Some of them are real neat. If you have a bad cold, or chest cold, and
this truly works. You take - now we used camphor and lard and something
else, sometimes a drop or two of kerosene. And you rubbed it on your
chest, covered it with flannel and then you got to drink the good stuff
which was white lightening, honey and if you had any lemon juice, if
How do you use the mullein leaves?
You just put it, put it on there and then you put a hot compress on top of it. Another thing that I've used with Michael and Brian with great success for puncture wounds - you scrap an Irish potato and put a poultice on there and it prevents the wound from closing, so it prevents tetnus. And I used that maybe five years ago. Mike or Brian had stepped on a rusty nail down in the cow pasture and wanted to go to the tractor pull that night and didn't tell anybody until eleven o'clock.
That was Mike, not me.
All right. That was Mike. And his foot was swollen up and he had red streaks going up his leg. We took him to the doctor and they washed it off and of course the wound had closed over. They started him on antibiotics and I brought him home and scrapped a Irish potato and put it on there. And such gunky stuff you've never seen in your life came out of there. The swelling went down and I know, being a nurse, that it was not the antibiotics working that fast.
I stepped on a nail about, about a inch and a half in my heel.
And your dad used a Irish potato? [Nancy addresses Brian, who nods yes.] Yeah. So we still use lots of these folklorish things. Michael had a, a virus that - he had strep throat and then the antibiotics with the strep throat and some kind of virus called - caused lesions on the gum and the tongue and he couldn't swallow and it was all back in his throat and he couldn't even - he was salivating and he would just have to let the saliva run out of his mouth because he couldn't swallow. And using yellowroot, it was better. He hadn't eaten anything for a week. He'd laid down at the - this was graduation and he went to the beach - and he laid down there for seven days, just sick as he could be, with strep throat and all sorts of stuff. And he, he'd lost so much weight and he just could not swallow, his throat was so sore with all the mouth lesions. And we got yellowroot and pounded the root and put it on these things. In a matter of hours he was eating. In twenty-four hours it was completely gone.
I don't know what yellowroot is.
Well it's found along the creeks and the roots are really
bright yellow. And that's the name of the plant. So, we use
lots of - we never give it a whole lot of thought, it's just
a way of life. We just do this. I don't think I ever went to
a doctor but once when I was a kid and that was when I split my head
open. And Mama couldn't fix it. But everything else was
handled by home remedies. Never - oh, for a stomach ache you would take
cornmeal and toast it in a frying pan. And, put it
Do you think your sons are going to learn how to do it?
Well, they're already believers. They know for a fact that putting the stuff on your chest and drinking that hot toddy works. The potato works. So, I feel sure that they will carry that on. Our traditions, holiday traditions will be the same thing because it has a real positive impact. The nursery rhymes I used to sing to them as kids, I've seen sing to other little children. So they will remember these things.
What kind of holiday traditions do you have?
Mostly traditional kinds of things. The family all getting together and exchanging gifts. Easter egg hunts, going fishing on Easter Monday.
I didn't know that.
For New Year's Day, everybody getting together and eating the
black-eyed peas and the turnip greens together for health and prosperity
for the coming year. We had one tradition; we had Christmas bags. That
Christmas bag was everybody in the family and even our
Mom -
Yes?
It's Pete.
END OF INTERVIEW