[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

SUSAN UPTON:

[My name is Susan Upton and I am interviewing Kathy Cheek. It is March 27 at four o'clock in the afternoon at UNC- Chapel Hill.]

SUSAN UPTON:

Ok, I'll start recording now, if that is okay. To start out with I'll get background information, if that is okay?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

okay.

SUSAN UPTON:

Where you born at?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Here, UNC Hospitals.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really? Have you always lived here in Chapel Hill?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes, always.

SUSAN UPTON:

Do you have any brothers or sisters?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I have a younger sister.

SUSAN UPTON:

And what neighborhood did you grow up in?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Jones Ferry Road, outside of Carrboro, outside of town limits.

SUSAN UPTON:

Which schools did you go to?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I went to Carrboro Elementary. I went to—my sixth grade—was at Lincoln. It was the one and only year the school system decided to put all the sixth grades in one building in one place together and it only lasted that one year. Then I went to Phillips Junior— it was before middle school so I went to Phillips Junior High. Until halfway through my ninth grade year when Culbreth opens, so I was the first class in Culbreth, then Chapel Hill High.

SUSAN UPTON:

Okay, that's a lot of schools. What did your parents do?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

My father worked at UNC Hospitals for thirty-six years. He was the director of mail

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services and printing. My mother worked at UNC Hospitals personnel for about five years, but other than that she was mostly a stay-at-home mom.

SUSAN UPTON:

Let's start out with the desegregation stuff. When do you remember—like what are your first memories of the desegregation process?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I remember—I think it was first—well it had to have been first grade because there wasn't mandatary kindergarten back then so my first year of school was first grade, not kindergarten. And I remember a little girl in my class just crying and crying and crying. And she had been brought in and left, a little black girl, had been brought in and left by her mother in this ocean of white faces. And all of—all the white kids parents being so upset because her mother had just walked in and left her. You know, first day of first grade parents, moms were staying around and all that stuff, but I think she just wanted her to be tough. And I remember kinda feeling sorry for her, but that's —I mean, that's about my only memory.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did she end up staying in the class?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

The other parents, were they upset because she was black or because—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, because she got left, and she was upset.

SUSAN UPTON:

That makes sense. Well, were you aware of how everything—I guess you were aware of how everything was changing in the schools.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Well, kind of, but not really. As a child you didn't—I mean that wasn't an issue and you didn't really care. I think we were probably aware because our parents were concerned about stuff, but I don't personally remember anything. I mean it was just—

SUSAN UPTON:

Do you remember any of the concerns from the parents, or any other adults around

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you?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I remember—you know this is probably just my old childhood memories, but memories of concern that it was pulling down the schools and we had Lincoln as a black school, why couldn't we keep it operating as a black school and so on. I don't remember it being a big deal.

SUSAN UPTON:

Throughout your elementary school, were there many other black students in your school?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I remember some, but probably not many. I don't think it got significant until I got to junior high and high school.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did that change—do you remember any conflicts that arose in—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Ohhh, junior high and high school, yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

really?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Oh yes, oh yeah. When I was in junior high, well when I was still at Phillips. It was in the fall so it was before we had moved to Culbreth. And there was a huge riot at Chapel Hill High. This must have been 1968 or '69, I can't remember which, but it was significant enough that our mothers came to school and picked us up. The principal at the junior high hid in his office.

SUSAN UPTON:

Well, what was it about?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Some—the black students at Chapel Hill High had presented a list of demands to the principal there that they wanted to change the mascot of the school from something to tigers or—some of it's vague. They wanted to change the school colors to black and gold instead of blue and gold. I mean, just this whole list of demands and they weren't being acted on very quickly so it

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just escalated into a full-scale riot. They closed the high school for a few days. But I wasn't in high school yet, I was still in middle school—or junior high— but I remember—

SUSAN UPTON:

And your parents still came and got you—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did they do anything, like afterwards?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

The parents, I remember, had meetings. Back then children weren't supposed to know anything that was going on, it was the adults. And I don't know the specifics, but I know there were parents' meetings in the evenings and that sort of stuff. Seems like the high school was closed for awhile and they brought in deputies for awhile and then most of the demands were met so I think it calmed down a little bit.

SUSAN UPTON:

Do you remember any other situations?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I remember just in high school—well no, this was in junior high too. This was still at Phillips. I remember being scared to go in the bathrooms.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really? How come?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Because the black girls would be waiting for you in the bathrooms and they would rip your post earrings out of your ears and that kind of stuff. I remember that you never went to the bathroom by yourself, and if you could hold it, you never went to the bathroom.

SUSAN UPTON:

Well, did you have—was there much interaction between the black students and the white students?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Some it was very—you know there was a group of, or a pocket of "trouble makers" and then everyone else was okay. I remember that there was this one girl that was in chorus with

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me and she threatened me the whole time that she was going to kill me and this and that kind of stuff. But that was the exception, not the normal.

SUSAN UPTON:

That's interesting. Was anything ever done about it, the different problems?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did it change any in high school?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yeah, high school got a little bit better. There was still a pocket of kids that back then—I don't know what high school is like now, but back then there was an area in the back of the high school— this was the old Chapel Hill High School, I mean the original Chapel Hill High School on Homestead. And kids would go out there and smoke and stuff. You weren't allowed to smoke, but they did. And um, There would always be a pocket of guys, black guys particularly, that were starting trouble and picking fights and this and that and the other. I remember having to be protected for awhile because black guys would make inappropriate remarks to white girls walking down the halls and so forth. But I don't remember high school being as big a deal as junior high.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really? Like, being protected, did you mean by other guy students?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yeah.

SUSAN UPTON:

Do you have any idea why it got better in high school?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Probably just time would be my guess. I mean this was the early seventies. I graduated in seventy-three so this would have been very early seventies and I guess things were just getting better in general at that point. There was a new principal, I remember—a new principal had come int the high schools and that was one of his major things was to clam the unrest and get the black-white issues solved and that kind of stuff.

SUSAN UPTON:

Do you remember anything he did in particular?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, again I mean who cared? [Laughter] I mean, we didn't care, our parents probably did but we didn't.

SUSAN UPTON:

Do you remember about things going on in the community at that time, as far as sit-ins and things like that?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, not really. I mean, I was fairly protected. My parents were very cautious and so we weren't exposed to a lot of stuff really. And I don't remember it ever—[pause]—no, I don't remember it ever being a big deal about it.

SUSAN UPTON:

Okay, this is kind of changing the subject about it. But what activities and stuff were you involved in in high school?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I was one of the founding members of the Future Business Leaders of America, and look where I am now [Laughter]. I —that's probably about it. I was much more interested in boys, etc. than academic or scholastic activity.

SUSAN UPTON:

How about other things in the community?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Girl scouts and my church.

SUSAN UPTON:

Just in general, within the community, was it mostly white or was it mixed in a lot?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Everything I associate—anything that I participated in extracurricularly was white, predominantly white. Except for girl scouts I think was a mixture. And I probably left that in junior high at some time so I don't think I did that in high school. But all my social interactions were a hundred percent white.

SUSAN UPTON:

The area you lived in, is it mostly a white neighborhood?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, it's a mixture. You go in through, you know, you leave Carrboro and getting

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outside of town and then there is one group that is specifically a black area and then you get on into where we lived. Now it is of course, much more mixed than it was back then.

SUSAN UPTON:

I was going to ask you too, you have children right?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did they go through school here in Chapel Hill?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did they have any issues—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

Could you tell me about those?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes. They did. My son actually left Chapel Hill High after being beaten up and threatened by a black guy that just seemed like it must have cycled. Seemed like it quieted down for awhile then while my children were in school which would have been—they 're grown now, but it would have been the early nineties I guess. [pause] Yeah, the early nineties, early to mid nineties. Seemed like there was more racial unrest than there had been, must have been a twenty-year cycle or something. But they both had trouble, my daughter and my son both had trouble with being picked on, you know.

SUSAN UPTON:

Why did they beat him up? Do you know?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, just got mad at him, and Chris had a little bit of a mouth on him, so he probably sassed back. But it was just—and it was definitely a black-white thing I think.

SUSAN UPTON:

So you pulled him out of the schools? Is that what you said?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes, because the school, or the assistant principal at that time, basically told me "too bad," you know. And I said protection for my child? And he said "no." And I said okay. So he

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went to private school after that.

SUSAN UPTON:

What grade was he in then?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

He was in tenth grade.

SUSAN UPTON:

Which private school did he go to?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

He went to Crescent Christian Academy.

SUSAN UPTON:

Okay, I was just wondering. I work at Saint Thomas More.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Oh really? Yeah, no he didn't go there [Laughter]. Might as well have, but he didn't go there.

SUSAN UPTON:

[Laughter] Well, how about your daughter?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

She was in middle school, and trickle down. Definitely "Oh, you're Chris Cheek's sister" and so on you know.

SUSAN UPTON:

Yeah, word gets around—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Uh huh, it does.

SUSAN UPTON:

on things like that. [pause] Well, going back to whenever you were in school too. I was wondering about black teachers, if you had many black teachers or—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I remember a couple. I don't remember very many. One in high school in particular who fostered the business interests that I had at the time, the office management and that kind of stuff. And she was she's the only black teacher that I can really remember. We had an assistant principal at the high school who was black. Actually, no, we had two. There was a man who had been assistant principal forever I think, or who had been in the school system forever and he was, kind of, the kids thought he was a joke. And then there was this other lady who was a typing teacher, but was also some form of assistant principal of some sort. And she was the

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disciplinarian. And she was a large woman and she, we were all scared to death of her. [Laughter] She was very effective when you had skipped class and she was standing in the parking lot waiting for you. But that's all I remember.

SUSAN UPTON:

[Laughter] Well, what about, I guess whenever you first were going to school with black students, do you remember any teachers, white teachers in particular, either being really careful about that.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I don't, I don't remember thinking any about it.

SUSAN UPTON:

Either one way or the other?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No. No.

SUSAN UPTON:

I guess [pause] I did an interview a couple of weeks ago with Charlene Regester. Did you know her?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes, I remember her from school.

SUSAN UPTON:

Okay, she was telling me about being in high school, and junior high too, and having sit-is and the black student movement. Did you know anything—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yeah, I do vaguely remember. I mean, we avoided it because you know, that was something you didn't want to get involved in. And I remember going fifty ways out of the way to avoid where ever the sit-ins were taking place. It seemed like it became a very common occurrence, especially in high school. I don't remember it as much in junior high. But in high school, Chapel Hill High—I don't know whether you've ever been there before but in the main building there's this huge open area, lobby area, that has stairs that go up to the second floor and it's big and that's where the sit-ins would be and they'd just encompass the whole available area it

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seemed like. And we just stayed away.

SUSAN UPTON:

How come?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Just, no use inviting trouble.

SUSAN UPTON:

Yeah, so they did that pretty often?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Seems I remember they did that pretty often.

SUSAN UPTON:

And do you know why?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No. I guess it was a method to get attention, I mean to try and get—there was always a list of demands or—you know which was what started the riots. My husband was in high school when the riots came that I was in junior high for. And he has very vivid memories of chairs flying through the air and all that kind of stuff.

SUSAN UPTON:

Oh really? What does he remember?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

He said they got locked in their classrooms by the teachers once it got started. And he said he just remembers mostly chairs and stuff like that being thrown and kids coming through and busting the doors down. I mean, it was not violence as unfortunately we know school violence to be today, but it was pretty intense for the time.

SUSAN UPTON:

I bet. I can see how.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Uh huh.

SUSAN UPTON:

I guess one of the other things she talked about was trying to get black history and things like that.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yeah, and there was—I don't remember there being any such thing until my kids were in school. I mean, I had never heard of black history month or anything. I mean, it just wasn't—

SUSAN UPTON:

So you never—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

And I was oblivious to it because it didn't impact me necessarily so as long as there wasn't something going on, significant going on, then it was like, you know. [sighs]

SUSAN UPTON:

Yeah, hmm. Thinking back I guess to high school, the different activities and stuff, were they well integrated.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Seems I remember they were. I don't remember a lack of integration. Dances and all that kind of stuff I remember being mixed. And, again, you didn't think about it, that's just the way it was. It wasn't "Oh this is a mixed event." That's just the way it was.

SUSAN UPTON:

What about like, interaction I guess between the students?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Well, I had what I considered to be friends that were black, as well as white. Now, they weren't close friends like some of the white kids were. I mean, they didn't come to my house and I didn't go to their house. But at school we were friends, and you know, activities after school we'd talked and that sort of stuff. Different though, I mean there was definitely a barrier, unacknowledged, unspoken, or whatever, but there was definitely a barrier.

SUSAN UPTON:

The other thing that's kinda come up in some of the other stuff I have is Chapel Hill having such high class differences. Do you remember—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Ohh yes. [Laughter]

SUSAN UPTON:

What do you remember about that?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Well, there was an in-crowd and a not in-crowd and most of the in-crowd were professors' kids. I think probably for segregation, or desegregation, Chapel hill was the exception to any rule in the South. I can't—I mean I know we had some of the same things, but we were probably very very very very different than—I mean if you went to Pittsboro and asked some of the same questions I bet you'd get very different answers from people the same age as me. Or

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Burlington or wherever. I think we were probably very different, very ahead of the time, because of Chapel Hill being a melting pot and a non-typical typical Southern town. But, yes I do remember a significant class difference. You knew who the rich kids were and who they weren't.

SUSAN UPTON:

It's kind of interesting because I found out, and you might know about this, they say that Chapel hill students in the state have like the highest scores, but the black students in Chapel hill have the lowest scores in the state.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Really?

SUSAN UPTON:

Yeah, so the gap is wider than any other area—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Huh, wonder why?

SUSAN UPTON:

Yeah. I'm not really sure about that. Some people have mentioned the class differences being, which is—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Well, Chapel Hill High, if you're smart and have means [pause] the school is at your feet. If you're medium, average, or below you can forget it.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really? How does that work? Do they just pick out the—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I think its just a natural selection process because Chapel Hill is so driven academically. And so if you're academically above average, you've got every available opportunity there is. And if you're average or below, you're not. I mean it's just like "forget it, we don't have time" — I mean that's not said but the attitude is "we don't have time to mess with you. Out attention is going to be on the academically gifted kids. Figure it out."

SUSAN UPTON:

This is more your own personal differences, but what were some of your favorite things about high school. Did you enjoy high school?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I don't remember not enjoying it, I mean I don't remember being miserable. I don't

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remember having strong feelings one way or the other. I think most of what I liked was the social stuff. And I liked—I developed relationships with several of my teachers, you know, so that was nice. That was a good, positive reenforcement.

SUSAN UPTON:

What did you do after high school.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I went to a business college for three months. Came home. Started working for the university, gt married, and had children.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really? So have you always wanted to stay in Chapel Hill?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

Where your parents from Chapel Hill?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes. And my husband and his family.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really? That's neat.

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I don't. I mean, I have very vivid memories of the horror in junior high. Of being scared to death of being physically hurt.

SUSAN UPTON:

How come?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

The pulling earrings out and stuff. The one black girl that haunted me all the way through junior high telling me she was going to kill me. I mean those were very significant, very vivid memories.

SUSAN UPTON:

Why did she do that?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I don't know. I wish I did know. It's thirty years later and I still don't know. [Laughter] I don't have any idea.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did you know her before?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Probably not before junior high because that was the merging of elementary schools and I don't think I knew her before then and I haven't run into her since. I think she dropped out of school.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did you know anyone who got their earrings pulled out in the bathrooms?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes, yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did a lot of people?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Didn't take too many because after the first couple of occurrences you didn't go in the bathrooms.

SUSAN UPTON:

Was anything done? Did they—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

There was never any proof. What would happen is you'd walk in the bathroom and they'd—the lights would be turned off. You'd be grabbed, earrings ripped or whatever and then be shoved out the door. And then by the time you could get help everyone would be dispersed, so there was no proof.

SUSAN UPTON:

Was it like that all of junior high?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, it must of been just my ninth grade year, or maybe eight and ninth grade. I don't remember it being that way in seventh grade.

SUSAN UPTON:

But nothing really—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No. And I remember you traveling in numbers, you didn't—and I know adolescent girls are packs anyway, but you didn't go off by yourself anywhere.

SUSAN UPTON:

Were there many fights that were black and white?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes. And I don't know the causes, and I don't remember any white and white fights.

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It was either white and black or black and black. A lot of girls, a lot of black girls fighting. And that was all the time. Fighting among themselves or fighting white girls because of jealousies, perceived jealous or whatever. Because a white girl would be paying attention to a black guy or vice versa black guy paying attention to a white girl.

SUSAN UPTON:

So you think it was worse then among the girls than among the guys?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

For that, yeah.

SUSAN UPTON:

What about like in high school, the issue of black and white dating , was that still a—

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I remember seeing one mixed couple and I can still remember my shock. I encountered them in the stairwell, I mean I can show you the stairwell. It made a vivid impression. It was—he was a tennis player and it was a white guy and a black girl, and I remember being just dumbstruck. But that's the only time I remember anything about it. I mean, that was not, neither of those guys were considered smart by their friends. I mean, it was like that was not the smart thing to do.

SUSAN UPTON:

Did a lot of the people in the school know about it?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Yes.

SUSAN UPTON:

was there anything else about your school in particular, or your experiences in the school? Anything I haven't covered?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Right, yeah. No, I mean you don't think of it as out of the normal until you start thinking of it as out of the normal range. It's just kind of the way it was.

SUSAN UPTON:

For you children, is there anything else you know of that happened to them? Did they have a really integrated experience?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

yeah, probably more so than I did. And it was much more prevalent from kindergarten

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forward like I kinda grew into it. And it came more and more, every year there were more black kids in my classroom so it was kind of a growing thing whereas theirs was the same mix from the beginning to the end.

SUSAN UPTON:

Something else I just thought of. The little black girl you told me about being left in your class, was she left by herself through the year?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I don't remember her being ostracized. There were two black girls in my first grade class. I can remember her name and I can't remember the other one's name, but I don't remember any events of her being ostracized. But I don't know how correct that is either, I mean I was oblivious. I don't remember "oh that little black girl, don't play with that." I mean, I don't remember that from teachers or parents or any of that, so I don't think she was.

SUSAN UPTON:

How about from later on, did you ever encounter that kind of teasing? [phone rings]

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

No, I don't, not that I remember. [phone rings]

SUSAN UPTON:

Um, [phone rings] That's pretty much I think everything got listed. You might have been too young to have noticed this but as the schools were changing, did you notice any changes going on in the community as far as the barrier between black and white?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

I don't remember restaurants that were posted 'no blacks.' I mean, I don't think that was how they put it, but I don't remember any of that. I remember there was a black grocery store and a white grocery store.

SUSAN UPTON:

Really?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

yes, in Carrboro.

SUSAN UPTON:

What were they?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Andrews and Rigsby were the white grocery stores and I could not tell you the name

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of the black grocery—I mean I could not tell you. And I remember black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods. But I don't remember-we never rode buses, so I don't remember anything like that. I don't remember bathrooms being marked at all, I don't have any memory of that, so evidently that had stopped here by the time I was old enough to pay any attention to it.

SUSAN UPTON:

For how long were those grocery stores like that?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Probably most of the way through my grammar school years, so through the early mis-sixties.

SUSAN UPTON:

That really is most of my questions though I think. Do you have any thing else you want to add?

KATHRYN CHEEKS:

Not that I can think of, but you know where to find me if you think of more questions.

SUSAN UPTON:

[Laughter] That's true. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and turn this off.