© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview K-0208, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Fran Jackson attended Northside Elementary until her parents petitioned for her transfer to the integrated Guy B. Phillips Junior High School. She argues that her parents and other black adults supported integration because better resources would be available to black students. Her parents' dedication to integration included paying for cab rides to and from the integrated school. Jackson herself, however, was less enthusiastic about integration. She enjoyed the assortment of extracurricular activities and caring teachers at Northside Elementary but felt isolated from the other white students and the predominantly white faculty. After graduating from high school in the late 1960s, she made a conscious choice to attend a historically black school, Johnson C. Smith University. There she adopted Afrocentric ideas, which she shared with her younger sisters, who helped lead the student call for more black teachers, the inclusion of black school traditions, and the creation of a black studies curriculum at Chapel Hill High School. Jackson also describes what she views as the hypocrisy of Chapel Hill's liberalism. She argues that tight racial and class boundaries maintained white privilege and that school desegregation hastened the demise of black cultural institutions.
Fran Jackson discusses her reaction to the integration of Chapel Hill High School.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is Christa Broadnax interviewing with Mrs. Fran Jackson in the School of Education in room 02089 North Carolina Central University and today's date is March 23, 2001. Let's see. Well I guess I'll start off with asking a little background information. Where were you born?
I was born in Durham North Carolina.
And did you grow up in Durham or did you grow up—.
I grew up in Chapel Hill.
Okay and what elementary school did you go to?
I went to Northside Elementary, which was the historically black school.
Okay and after integration what schools did you go to?
I went to Guy B. Phillips and Chapel Hill High School.
I know that you said that you had two siblings, two sisters, what schools did they attend?
Let's see. My—. The sister that is next to me she attended Northside for
awhile and then she also went to Guy B. Phillips, and Chapel Hill High
School. My youngest sister, who is five years younger than I am, she
attended—. I think she attended Northside for maybe two years but then I
think she
And she attended Chapel Hill High also?
Oh yes, she attended Chapel Hill High and uh and Guy B. Phillips.
And what about your parents. Do you know about their educational background or—.
Yes my mother completed high school in Chatham County and my father completed the what was then known as the Orange County Training School, which later became—.
Lincoln High School.
Lincoln High School.
Okay and what occupation did your parents have while you were in school?
When I was in school my mother worked as a domestic and my dad worked as a—. He uh—. He was a builder.
And you said that you lived in Chapel Hill, what area of Chapel Hill?
I lived—. Growing up I lived on Graham Street my parents still live on Graham Street.
Still live on Graham Street.
Yeah.
And what was the community like around Graham Street?
Okay it was an all black community. I thought that it was a very
Okay. Would you call the community tight knit? Was everybody pretty much getting along together?
It was very tight knit. It was a very supportive community. And uh people were—. They knew, as I said, they knew each other they were very helpful to one another. If anybody in the community died or they had extended family to die then everyone in the community would do something. You know, bring a—. As we say bring a plate over or bring dinner over. They would do something in commemoration to that family that experienced the loss so it was definitely a tight knit community.
Let's see and what did community mean to you at the time?
Community to me, in my opinion, was almost like an extended family. Now
this is not to make you feel that it was all ideal and there that were
no
Right. Okay at what point did you realize schools were going to be integrated?
Gee. I think I may have been about twelve or thirteen years of age. And I—. My parents and family, extended family, talked about integration and it was happening in other parts of the country. And I think my parents were convinced, as were many other African American families that an integrated setting would provide greater opportunities for us. So my folks were so intent on us going to the quote "white school" that they even, because bus services were not provided my parents sacrificed and they paid for a taxi to take us to school everyday. It was really several of us that rode the taxi so we kind of pulled together. But still my mother had two girls riding the taxi everyday to school. And there were about a total of maybe about five of us, four or five of us that rode the taxi to school.
What was your reaction to integration?
To integration? Well it was really culture shock. I knew that white people existed, but I never had much contact with whites. And it was the first time that I really, really understood what racism was about. My family talked about it in so many words, but I never conceptualized what it actually meant until integrating Guy B. Phillips. And it was quite a culture shock. The other point, the other factor I think that played into that not only the racial differences, but the socioeconomic class differences. In my community we were considered reasonably as middle class as anybody. And I guess it is all relative because we had two parents, two parent home, both parents were working. And they provided for us reasonably well. But going to the white school we realized that gee their parents were generally—. Had more—. You know they were from more affluent backgrounds. And particularly here in Chapel Hill because of the University's influence. We were in classes with kids whose parents were physicians, and I don't believe that there were any black physicians or lawyers in Chapel Hill. And I think Chapel Hill is unique too because in Durham, and as a teenager I began to mingle with the kids from Durham, there were black lawyers and black physicians and so forth. But in Chapel Hill there weren't any.
Why do you think?
I think it's because the university helped to maintain a plantation type
environment. They, you know, used African Americans. And that was one of
the reasons even today my father is very proud of the fact that he never
worked for the university because he knew that he would always have a
menial position.
Considering that Chapel Hill was supposedly a liberal area, do you think that that had, that should have played into anything or any part of the work force or—.
I think Chapel Hill has a veneer of pseudo-liberalism. I think that a lot of people will talk the liberal talk but in terms of actually examining and looking at things—. For example I know that there was a big issue surrounding the workers who commuted from outlying areas to come to Chapel Hill to clean up the university. And I think that they, those workers have had to fight for everything that they have gotten. And I don't think that, I am not aware of very many faculty or others within the community who stepped in to support them a whole lot. I know that the university did not just offer a great deal of support, and in fact I know that at one time the university had a policy for these workers to come in at strange hours like three o'clock in the morning to clean up so that they would not be visible during the day. So that's my take on it.
Okay. When did you actually change schools?
You mean what year?
Yeah.
It was either sixty-one, sixty-two I believe when I actually changed
schools. I graduated from high school in sixty-eight. One day you'll say
that.
Oh! In Northside I was in—. We always had school plays. I was in all the school plays and all of the different activities that were held. Because it was an elementary school we did not have a lot of you know extracurricular kinds of the things that you associate with the high school. But what activities they did have, I participated in and I have a retired principal who had some old pictures showing us in school plays and different kinds of things. So while I do—. Can't remember everything I do recall that as being a very important time in my life, and a time when I, I was generally very happy and participated a lot. I've got somebody who needs to see me you want to just hit the—.
Okay.
Okay. What activities did you participate in once you went to high school?
Absolutely nothing.
And that was by choice or by force or—.
Well I guess it was by choice but nothing—. It was not made inviting. No one made an effort to encourage me to participate in any activities at the high school. It just wasn't, it wasn't inviting.
Did you have any friends that went to school with you that you were close to like your best friend. Did they go—? I know they said that some students were chosen hand picked to move into the integrated schools. Did you have any friends to go with you or were all the students just, all the students just moved?
Let's see. What happened in Chapel Hill was that the first African
American student he was like maybe a couple years ahead of me and he
went to Chapel Hill High when it was located on Franklin Street. Where
you now have the CCB Bank and I think there's an ice—. Swensen's and
those places. And after he and then a year after Stanley [Vickers] there
were several other African-American students. I don't recall people
being hand picked to attend but that may have been the case. And as I
said earlier we sort of self-identified and were among the first to go
to the integrated school. And then I think that the schools completely
integrated in 6—. The first integrated class was in sixty-eight.
Okay. When you talk about, what did you say his name was Stanley other friends that you had, how did they and their families feel about integration? Did you all discuss it or—.
I don't know if my parents discussed it with the Vickers family much.
But I think the consensus within the African-American community at that
time was that the desegregated school would offer great opportunities
because there was a sharp contrast in terms of facilities between Chapel
Hill High and Lincoln High.
And do you recall any black teachers being at the integrated schools when you went?
When I first went to the integrated school there were no black teachers.
When the schools actually merged in about sixty-seven there were a few
black teachers, but a very few. And I do recall that the principal Mr.
McDougle from Lincoln High School when the schools merged he became the
assistant. And I think the biggest shock in the community was that we
loved Coach Pierman who had won all kinds of state championships in the
segregated Lincoln School. I think he became an assistant coach. And
so—. And when they merged the schools the mascot was the Chapel Hill
High mascot, which was the Wildcat. I think in recent years they now
changed it back to the Tigers. But essentially everything about Lincoln
High School was erased. And now that I think about it's almost
comparable to the whole slave trade actually during the middle passage
particularly in North America. The purpose was to erase people's
connections to Africa. They mixed the slaves up from different groups so
that they
I recall Bob Gilgor telling us about how the archives from Lincoln High and all the sports trophies and all the momentos that had been saved were actually put in a dumpster somewhere. How do you feel about that?
Well it's what I was saying earlier. It's just there was a deliberate attempt and I don't know if people did it consciously. I just think that, that the racism was so deeply embedded that everybody believed, including blacks, believed that the best way was to start in a whole new system. But their idea of that was to get rid of all that was black, all that came from the black system.
That's interesting. What about the white teachers. What were your experiences with the white teachers when you first integrated?
When I first integrated? For the most part I felt that the white
teachers were rather insensitive. And in retrospect I don't necessarily
blame them because I think that we are a products of our, of the context
with which we live in. And they were just—. They basically ignored—. Now
I know some of my friends can tell you some pretty blatant kinds of
things that happened but from my own perspective I feel that for the
most part the more subtle racism that they simply ignored and did very
little to cultivate any type of relationship with us. So that was—. And
as a
But yes and I went to Johnson C. Smith.
Okay
The best decision in my entire life. And after Smith I came back to Chapel Hill, got my masters degree at Carolina. And then after having taught for a few years I got my doctorate from Carolina. But that was a really wise decision for me to—. And I made friends that I still have today we get together and so—.
Okay. So does that effect your outlook on predominately white schools today or–?.
You mean my experience?
Right, right.
I still feel that many predominately white institutions are somewhat
insensitive, particularly to African-American students. I think that
there has been an effort to make some changes. But I don't think
significant changes have been
I agree. Who was your favorite teacher and why whether it be before integration or after?
Hmm. I have a couple of favorite teachers. One of my favorite teachers, and it's not because of any kind of, it's interesting because it was not because of any—. I was going to say because of any academic connection, but maybe yes. Let me explain. I had a fifth grade teacher who lived; she was rooming in a house two doors up from my grandmothers where I stayed a lot. And because I had problems with my leg, one of my legs when I was growing up, I rode to school with her everyday. And occasionally she would play rock and roll on the radio.
And to me that just put her in a whole other dimension. So if I don't
remember anything else about Mrs. Joyner, that is one thing that I will
always remember. And I really, I really liked her for that because it
made her more human. She was a good teacher too. There was another
teacher that I have a great deal of admiration for. And interestingly
she was one of the white teachers that I think made an effort; Zora
Rashkis who is still living. She lives in fact not too—. We don't live
too far from one another, and we both—. I had an opportunity
And so she was quite a character.
Bob Gilgor told us about her.
About—. Yeah.
Yeah.
So she too is a —. And you all ought to interview her.
I think somebody did. I think somebody already did.
Okay. Because she is quite a character.
Okay. Who least favorite teacher?
Oh! I think our least favorite teacher was, gee I had several
Okay. Let's see. What was your favorite subject?
Oh my favorite subject was history.
Really?
I don't know. Because I don't think it was taught very well. It was very traditional lecture. I remember being, I think I was the only black student in the honors history class. And I don't remember anything more than that. I always felt that this teacher got very nervous when we talked about slavery and that sort of stuff. So—. Yeah.
Let's see. What is one of your most memorable moments whether it be good or bad?
At the high school?
At the high school.
I don't have any, any one thing that stands out. I think the one thing that kind of, when I think about that time was, I remember during the breaks we would always—. We would have breaks during the day, and I know that all the African-American students kind of congregated and we just kind of congregated.
Congregated and talked
Stayed together and talked. And I just remember all those years thinking
I'm getting out of this, and I do not intend to spend the next four
years in this type of a setting. And I made it a point. So that was,
that was the outlook on
Were you a very popular student at ah what is it Northside then Guy B. Phillips and—.
I think I was reasonably popular at Northside. I had a lot of friends. And at—. Keep in mind I was generally, I was pretty quiet too and my parents were somewhat protective. So I got teased a lot for not being able to go out.
Go out and do all that kind of stuff.
Go to dances. They used to have dances at the center and my folks wouldn't let me go. So that's another reason why I said this. [Laughter]
My mom was like that too. Do you think that your friends helped make the transition easier or was it just like a support system? You were a support system for each other?
I think we were a support system but when we first integrated the school there weren't very many of us and we certainly relied on one another. And I think that that experience clearly shaped my life future life. I became interested in education and today my focus is—. I teach the cultural diversity course here. My focus is to sensitize teachers to the issues of diversity and its impact on teaching. And how a lack of sensitivity and failure to make a personal connection to students can really affect their ability to reach them and to teach them.
That sounds like a good course. Let's see. What was a typical day
In high school?
In high school.
Oh my goodness. Gee I do recall by the time we got to high school we
could ride the bus. We rode the bus to school plus at that point all the
other kids were driving cars.
Okay.
Even back in the old days. So immediately that made a difference. Although some of the guys, some of the guys eventually got cars and that was really a big status kind of thing. We would ride to school. We had a few moments to kind of linger around. And again all the African-Americans kids congregated together. We'd talk about all kinds of things current events. We talked about the racial divide. And then we'd go to class. I remember a Spanish teacher; I didn't particularly like her either. She was just—
And I was one of the few African Americans in the Spanish class too. It was a, it was just a feeling, I don't know how to express this. But sometimes when I think about it it's just a feeling that gee you walked into a—. Have you ever felt that you walked into a room or walked into some place and everybody knew something that you didn't know; what the game plan was.
Exactly.
And so that was kind of how I felt. It was just kind of hard to adjust
to
I came from a predominately white high school so, and I was one of the few quote unquote "smart black kids" at school so I know exactly what it feels like to walk in a just feel like everybody else is looking at you and have hidden agendas. I definitely feel that. Let's see. Where did you sit in the classrooms?
Where did I sit? It really varied. But for the most part I think I sat probably closer to the back. When I think about it and think about all of my classes. I wanted to be as inconspicuous as possible.
And where did the blacks sit in the cafeteria?
Where did they sit in the cafeteria? I do recall that we all sat together for the most part. But I can not remember exactly where we sit, sat. I also felt that the athletes were better accepted you know among the white students.
Let's see. What were your administrators like? Did they accept the integration process or did they make it hard for the African-American students?
I think they were—. I think they ranged. But it was either benign
neglect where they just kind of ignored us or just out and out silly,
ridiculous kinds of things. I think there was definitely a failure to
pay attention to the African-American students. And I don't think
anybody was courageous enough to step out and say that we need to do
something to assure that these students feel more accepted and more
comfortable in class. They just said wow let's get these people out of
here. And maybe it'll get better with time. And to be honest with you I
Let's see. Do you remember your siblings talking about their experiences that they were having at school?
Well by the time—. Well my sister and I were in high school together for about a year. And then when I left and went to Johnson C. Smith, I know that they had some pretty difficult times. In fact it was when my sisters were in school that they had a little riot at Chapel Hill High. I think my sisters were kind of—. They were a lot more assertive than I. I am sure, I know that they were involved in all of that. And part of the, and definitely their concerns were legitimate. I mean they wanted better representation of black teachers. They wanted African-American history in the schools. And see being at Johnson C. Smith I was exposed to a lot of African-American history and I would tell my sisters about things. We felt again another sense of being deprived because I went to Johnson C. Smith you know it was the first time that I knew what the National Negro Anthem was.
Wow.
I mean even in our churches I am sure we sang it. But it wasn't made
known to me that this was the national black anthem. At least that's the
first time I recall that, really knowing that. And I said wow this is
opening up a whole new world. I mean there's a lot out there. But in
terms of my sisters, yeah I think that
I could not convince them to go any place else. And my second sister finished at Florida State. And so—. But my youngest sister finished Carolina. In fact she's teaching in the African,
AFAM
AFAM department. She's doctor Register.
OH! That's why you asked me about the—.
Right.
Okay.
So.
I will have to make sure that I take one of her courses.
Yeah. So—. But it has, as I said, it's had real major—. Because my oldest daughter went to the School of the Arts and she finished her college there. And she's really into the arts and could not have convinced her otherwise. But my youngest daughter is at Florida A and M.
I have a friend there.
Do you. And we, my husband and I both are products of historically black
institutions. He went to Clark Atlanta [or Clark-Atlanta University].
And so we, we really wanted our children to go. And Nicole was—. She
finished East Chapel Hill High and based on her experiences she
definitely, it wasn't a
Let's see. How did you and your community and your parents feel about the closing of Lincoln?
Umm. I think that there was a sense of sadness, but I also think that there was a sense of this is something that is inevitable, it's going to happen, it's got to happen. This is change we're making for—. At that time you know for progress. You've got to remember the context. You've got Dr. King talking about you've got to integrate, integrate, integrate. And I in retrospect, I think that we are all thinking about what did we lose in this whole process of integrating. And it's no doubt I think we did lose something. I think that if the integration had been—. What we did was to desegregate and as African Americans we merged in, in terms of our major social institutions. But we did not integrate. Integrate implies that there is, there are policies in place to insure positive intercultural interactions. And, and that did not happen. And I think today that schools are still quote "desegregated."
That's interesting. That's very interesting.
Oh I'll tell you, I'll tell you some stories. When I got married my
husband and I lived in Florida and we came back to Chapel Hill because
he was in graduate school. And we were looking for an apartment. And I
went to, what was this apartment? I can't remember the name of the
apartment. We pass them, pass by them all the time. And the guy said "oh
no we don't have any
It's hard to believe that it's filtering down and just seems to not go anywhere.
I know. Oh my husband was in Asheville working the summer before we got married and he called a guy in advance and said you know I understand you're renting rooms and I want to rent a room. The guy said sure, sure some on over. My husband went over and the guy looked at him and said I'm sorry Mr. Jackson there's just one drawback we don't rent to blacks. So—.
And when was this?
That was in, that was the summer before we got married. So that was in seventy-three.
Wow.
But I think you're right. There are a lot of things that haven't changed.
That's true. Let's see. This is one of the, of my favorite questions I wanted—. I was curious as to knowing if you had separate proms queens, separate dances, or separate anything in, in high school?
Well you know what happened was we—. They did have separate dances but
they were not sponsored I think by the high school. I think there was a
group like today. You have your separate debutante balls and cotillions
and so forth. But there was a separate group that had, that would have
an annual formal
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Yeah. I'll check into it.
I know her last name, she may go by Sandra Farrington but she did marry. And I can't remember her last name.
I'll put a check, a little star by her name so I can look for it. Ah let's see. Let's see. Do you feel like you had to work harder than the white students?
Oh yes absolutely. And I did because there were a lot of little cultural
nuances that I just wasn't very familiar with. And I guess you could
call them
Okay. Let's see. Did you participate in any of the movements? I know that you said something about the sixty-nine or the sixty-nine riots. Did you participate in any movements or activism or anything?
Yeah a little bit. But it's interesting because by the time they were demonstrating in Chapel Hill again my parents being very protective didn't really permit us to participate. But we would, we would participate a little bit. I never went to jail.
Okay.
If that's the question.
No. No.
I did march a couple of times.
Okay that's more of the question [laughs].
And I did go to the church and you know sang some songs and, and
listened to the speeches. After I got to college though I did, I was
pretty active on
Let's see what motivated you to be an educator?
I think I've kind of answered because of my experiences in school. And when I was growing up the teaching profession was still in my community, was still viewed as an honorable, worthwhile, respected profession. And so I thought that that was a worthwhile career for me.
Okay. Let's see. We discussed about the school systems how they haven't really changed; do you have any relatives now that attend the Chapel Hill School system?
Chapel Hill School system? Ah no I don't.
Okay and the last question that I want to ask, you can take a little time to think about this one if you want to, How has your experiences shaped your character?
Um
You can take a little time and think I know that's a hard question.
Well as I said earlier I think it clearly shaped my career path, my
interest in education, and interest in working towards insuring that
schools become more responsive to the needs of all students. And I think
that it has definitely shaped my character. I find that I am very
interested, even today, in issues related to civil rights, equality, and
all of those things. And I am sure that it is a function of the kind of
experience I had in high school. And my commitment to, to maintaining
the integrity of historically black institutions. I mean I am working at
a historically
Right. I was just about to ask you that.
That can not be broken. I mean it's just amazing to me when I think back of our interaction styles, and different things. It's kind of interesting, our connections with Africa, really.
Yeah. Well that's it unless there is something else it's something else that you would like to tell me or share with me.
No. I think that your questions were excellent.
Well thank you.
I think that you covered the waterfront.
Thank you. Thank you.
I think that this is a worthwhile project. It's really worthwhile, and
I've actually interviewed her one time before and along the same lines. And some of the things she told me about being displaced and how the teachers treated her were something similar to what you told me today.
Oh really. Okay.
Yeah. But I thank you.
You're more than welcome And I definitely would like to see how you all handle the end results of this.
Okay.
END OF INTERVIEW