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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview K-0269, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Ran Kong immigrated to Greensboro, North Carolina, from Cambodia when she was four, knowing little about her home country but less about her new one. She transitioned well, finding a balance between being an American resident and a Cambodian national. She learned English and performed well in school, but thrived at the Greensboro Buddhist Center, where she played with other Cambodians. She spent time with "Americanized" Cambodians, but her family maintained its ties to Cambodian culture. Even as she became the liaison between the non-English speaking Cambodian community and their American surroundings, escorting family members and others to doctor visits, or helping them figure out their health insurance, she maintained a strong connection to her native home. This sense of connection may have only strengthened as Kong grew older, and it flourished when she was challenged, as at the relatively homogeneous Salem College, where she found a passionate commitment to her heritage. By the time this interview took place, Kong had become an American citizen, and at age twenty, had voted for the first time. But she became a citizen for convenience, not conviction. Kong reflects on her life and her identity in this interview, as well as considering the wider Cambodian community and the endurance of Cambodian traditions in a new context.
Ran Kong, who immigrated to the United States from Cambodia at a young age, reflects on her life as a Cambodian-American and on her immigrant identity.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Okay. Today is November— what did they say—
25th.
—25th, 2000. My name is Barbara Lau. And we're in Greensboro, North Carolina, at the Greensboro Buddhist Center. And I'm interviewing Ran Kong for the Listening For A Change Project of the Southern Oral History Program. Ran, why don't you just say, if you wouldn't mind, tell us your name and where you live. And then maybe you could talk a little bit about how you remember coming to Greensboro.
Okay. My name is Ran Kong. I live at 1211 Kinley Street, Greensboro, North Carolina. And my memories of coming to North Carolina— I was so young then. I was only four years old when I first came here. And so my memories of like exactly when we came, and you know, when we settled and— aren't exactly all that clear. But I do remember the very first house that we lived in. It was an apartment complex with a small kitchen and a small living room. And we were all cramped in, but it was really fun. So I just remember, I guess my family back then, not exactly one specific thing that we did, but just the fact that we lived there in that neighborhood in that particular house, who our neighbors were and who the people around us were.
Could you tell us where your family is from and who the members of your family are?
My family is from Cambodia. The members of my family, my dad, my mom, my grandmother who is very old, and an older sister and a younger brother.
And could you tell us what their names are?
Yes. My father's name is Kep Kong. My mom's name is Uch Real.
So you were four years old when you came here.
Yes.
What did your parents tell you then about why you had to come to the United States? Do you remember that?
We were young, so they didn't really say anything. Growing up, though, I always remembered my father mentioning it was this about Cambodia, it was that about Cambodia. Whatever it was, I knew that it was bad. It wasn't a good reason why we came. You know, it was like my first impression when I first heard about why we were here is that there was a war over there, which there was. But you know, there's a whole lot more to there just being a war over there. And so it wasn't until I was older, like maybe in my teens, that my father and my mother really started going into detail on what happened over in Cambodia, and you know, all of their experiences, and why they made the decision to come here to America.
When you were little, when you were first here, do you remember your parents being kind of nervous or afraid being in a different place?
I don't know. I don't think as a kid you ever really observe that. But I
remember, though, that my father was the one in our family who ran
everything. He was the one who always seemed to be talking and you know,
taking care of things. He got a job as soon as he got here. And it
seemed like to me and to my family, he was always the stable one that
took care of everything, that made everything all right. So, you know, I
guess as a child
Did he speak English when he came here?
Very little. I do remember whenever he talked, it was broken English, like halting and stuff. But I guess he communicated well enough, because you know, we did just fine. But I think that he also got help from people in the community who knew how to speak English and Khmer.
Well, you mentioned that there were other Cambodians here.
Yes.
So did you live near other Cambodians when you first moved here?
Yes. In our apartment complex, it's like there was just like two rooms or two houses, and it was like A and B. And we lived on one side, and there was a Cambodian family who had gotten to America earlier than us who lived on the other side. And down the street from us was a Cambodian family whose kids we later babysat for. And I think there were also some other Asians in the neighborhood, not just us.
Do you remember whether people were sort of nice to you or welcoming to you, Cambodians and non-Cambodians?
I think in general they were. It's kind of weird, though, because my
earliest memories of when I lived in that apartment complex were not of
American— I mean, not of Cambodians, really. They just sort of came and
went. But I guess, Americans, I remember more about my experiences with
Americans, particularly with my sponsors Mark
So they taught you a little bit about what was American as opposed to what was Cambodian.
Yes.
Was that a problem in your family? Did your parents have any problems, say, with you going to their house for Christmas when you were little?
No. I don't think they had, you know, a problem with that. I think it was nice that here we were, and was this nice American couple who is trying to help us adjust to what goes on around here. You know, sort of like, Christmas, you know, what is that? And just the fact that they came over and invited us to have dinner with them. And you know, we got to see the tree, and they had presents for us and stuff. I think that was just very nice, coming from what you know, they had just come from over in the refugee camps to this, you know, it was sort of like a nice little introduction to America.
Was there any pressure, do you think, on you to become more American when you were a really little kid?
I guess at that age, you don't really know who you are. I would say my
name is Ran and, you know, but I think I've told you before that my
impression of Cambodia was that it was on Mars. And so I don't really—
you know, it's kind of silly how,
So did they, for example, want you to learn English, or did you— because you were younger than school age then.
Yes.
Did you stay home for a little while and that kind of thing, or did you go right to school?
I think I went right to school. I think— yes, except for my brother who was about two years old at that time. I was five when school started, so they put me into kindergarten. But you know, my father was like, well, we're living in America, obviously, we have to learn English. So he never really said, go to school, but don't try to learn, or anything like that. It was always, go to school, learn what you can— keep talking?
Yes.
Go to school, learn what you can, because we're here. And I guess my
father is a person who values education very much. And so to him it was
always, no
So nobody spoke English in your house. Is that in part because of your grandmother?
Yes. And also in part because my mom didn't know English then. And my father's grasp on English wasn't a lot either. He wasn't, at that point, very fluent in it. But now, we speak English in the house to our parents. And they'll understand, and they'll respond in Khmer, and then tell us, to shut up, speak in Khmer.
Can you talk a little bit about the role of your grandmother in your life when you were a young girl?
When we were young, both of my parents had to work. And so in the
household it was really convenient that my grandmother was there, that
she could take care of all of us, sort of like our babysitter. But
obviously, in our culture, grandparents are a very important part of the
household. And so she was like our second mom in a way. I think
personally, with me, my relationship with her is even deeper because you
know, I sleep with her, and when I was small, I didn't really follow my
parents. Like wherever my grandmother went, I had to be there. And so
out of the three of us, I think it was my grandmother and me spent the
most time together. But she was the one in our household who, you know,
before my parents made a decision, it was kind of like, well, is it
going to be good for her? You know, is it going to
Well, when you first started going to school, did you feel really different than the other kids? And how did teachers and other people that were around you, did they help that, make it worse, or what was that experience like?
I think it helped a lot that I went to a school that had other Cambodians in it. My elementary school was Caesar Cone Elementary School. And I think that at that point that was the only elementary school in Greensboro that was offering English as a second language. And so I wasn't the only Asian there. And my sister and my cousin also went there, and a couple of other Cambodian kids who I knew from the community. So in a sense, I didn't feel totally different, but at the same time, we were going to ESL classes with our teachers. And you know, so I knew that we weren't exactly, you know, like other American kids who were just staying in the classroom, you know, the whole day. We had to go to a special class and learn English.
You said before that even with the kids in your neighborhood you realized that you looked different. Did kids tease you?
Well, yeah. You know, I think the most common phrase that I heard thrown at me when I was little was "Chink." So I don' t know, I don't look very Chinese to me, but I guess you know, what kids pick up from their parents or what kids pick up from the media, that's all they can use against you.
Were there people in your school that kind of tried to counteract
Well, I don't think I really knew what that word meant back then. You know, it wasn't really until fifth grade when one of my friends actually called me that name again, that I really understood that it was derogatory, and I knew that it wasn't nice to call somebody that. You can sort of like sense that and pick that up. But I didn't really know what that meant, until fifth grade. So, you know, kindergarten, first, second grade, whoever, you know, like whatever. Nothing really matters. You know, we're all on the playground, we all play together. It doesn't really matter.
So what happened in fifth grade? Can you describe that experience?
Well, I'm going to leave out the person's name. Actually, I still
remember him to this day, and my fifth grade teacher, I loved her,
actually, Mrs. Knight. And I was sort of teacher's pet. And so everybody
in the class was like, she's teacher's pet, you know, like don't mess
with her, type of thing. And so I was outside and my teacher had said,
go out and take the erasers from the chalkboard, and bang them against
the wall of the building and get all the chalk out and stuff. And so of
course, I always volunteered to do this. And so I went outside and I was
just banging away, chalk dust flying everywhere. And the guy comes out.
He was actually one of my friends. And he was like, Chink, hey Chink,
what's up? You know, just, Chink, Ran is a Chink. And that just really
upset me that, like this guy who I considered one of my friends was
calling me this name. And I actually hadn't heard it in a while. I
developed this like image of myself that I'm teacher's pet so nobody
should mess with me.
What do you think you and he learned from that incident?
I think I learned that, it's really horrible, but when somebody makes a
comment like that to you, it does hurt no matter how much you try to bar
yourself against saying that it doesn't hurt and even in fifth grade, I
don't think I really knew like the full extent. I just knew that it was
bad and I didn't want to be called that. And so I guess I learned too
that sometimes like— I guess like after he was punished, I guess I felt
like a little bit happier that he was punished, but at the same time, it
wasn't like completely, he deserved it, you know. I don't know. I think
I wish that it had never happened at all, like that incident had never
happened at all, because it's just something that I remember
You were talking a little bit about how you weren't the only Cambodian kid. Can you describe in some of your classrooms, say in elementary school, what kind of kids went to your school?
At Cone Elementary, our ESL classes were all— I think all of the English as a Second Language students, so not just Cambodian kids, but I also think like Laotian kids and Vietnamese kids were also there. I think we had a Vietnamese teacher as one of our English as a Second Language teachers. And the other teacher, she was Hawaiian-American. But it was funny, because I think that the ESL classes were like the best classes out of the whole entire day at school. We all looked forward to it, I guess, because in there we were all equally as, I don't know, I don't want to say like dumb, but just, you know, enough that speaking English, you know, together. So it was kind of funny, because I remember Mrs. Outlaw trying to teach us not to ever say ain't, and you know, just the fact that like, wow, 20 kids looking at this crazy lady saying, take ain't and throw it out the window. Take ain't and throw it out the window and— cause she was trying to emphasize to us to never say ain't. And so my sister was actually in that class with me. So just the fact that, you know, gosh what is this teacher doing? She's saying take ain't and throw it out the window. Take ain't and throw it out the window. I guess it never really hit home until, you got older. But you know, it was fun.
But even in the rest of the school, what other kind of kids were at
My class was mixed. We had, African-American kids, you know, White American kids, and then I had one Chinese friend who was in my second grade class. But otherwise, I think that was about it.
But in general the kids were sort of nice to you, or was this a real big
change, to have a lot of, you know, kids that didn't speak English at
the school. Hold on. Okay. Try that.
I don't know, actually, kindergarten, first and second grade, I don't really remember much. I was at Cone for those first three years. But then third, fourth grade I was at another school. And at this school, it was different because in our third grade classes there were two other Cambodian students. And the whole attitude was different. At this point, like, it was still a mixture. The school was still pretty diverse like in terms of there being White, Blacks and Asians. But we'd sort of like developed this image that, you know, we're really good students. And so it wasn't like negative attention, but at the same time, it was like, they're different. I think we all got along very well third grade.
So just because they were Cambodian doesn't mean they were kids that you got along with? Is that what you were trying to say?
No. I think, you were just asking me in terms of, you know, how did the
other kids treat you. I think it was like the other Cambodian girls who
had been there had— I guess what I'm trying to say is that they had
developed, they were cool. You know, they had developed this image that
they were really smart. They were more Americanized
Where else did you see Cambodian kids, I mean, outside of school?
Outside of school I'd see them in the community at the temple, basically, is where I'd see them.
So tell me what it was like when you were a kid and you were at the temple here at the Greensboro Buddhist Center?
It was fun. I just remember, jumping across the tables that the monk had built, just running around playing hide and seek, or playing whatever games that the kids thought up around here. And so whenever there was a ceremony we'd come and I'd stick with my grandmother for five minutes and then run and play. And then she'd come and call me back. And then I'd have to go back and sulk because I couldn't play with the other kids.
So being with other Cambodians and community kinds of celebrations, that's something you would look forward to?
Definitely.
Tell me why.
I don't know. It was just fun. Like just as a kid, all you want to do is
So you didn't play as much with the neighborhood kids, you played more with other Cambodian kids at the temple?
Yes. In my neighborhood, let's see, as far as I remember, every neighborhood that I've lived in has always had a Cambodian. After we moved from that apartment into our second house, right, our backyards were connected to another Cambodian family's backyard. It was actually Romato's family. And Romato and I grew up— you know, sort of grew up together. We were about the same age. And so I always remember going over, you know, going across the fence to her house and playing with her on her swing set, or she would come across to by backyard and play. And also I think my mom babysat for Cambodian kids. And so I was always busy, helping her, entertaining them. So I never really got a chance to go out into like the neighborhood and play with other kids.
So your exposure to other kids was sort of limited?
Yes, just basically school. That was my exposure to other kids.
And were there things that your parents or your grandmother said
I guess like just the usual. Like for my grandmother and from my mom, like the lessons that they taught me were different from my father. From my grandmother, it was always more how to be a good girl. When you come to the temple with me or when you go to somebody's house with me, it's always important to be respectful, you know, to the older people, to the people who own the house, respectful to the monks. So just always from like my grandmother's side, respect, respect, respect. How to behave properly. She's like, it's not good to be a noisy, playful, kid who runs all over everywhere, which I still did anyways. And from my mom, it was sort of the same type of lessons. You should get up early, and you should help me do this, do that. But from my dad it was on a more serious note, like always be good in school. Why aren't you doing good in school? Why aren't you studying harder? I remember making a bad grade in third grade, and he was just furious, absolutely furious. And you know, I sort of cried and my grandmother held me. But so I remembered, you know, from early on an important lesson from my father was that you take education very seriously. It's always, do as good as you can in school. Like it's not something that you take lightly at all.
Did they tell you anything about how to relate to other people who weren't like you?
Not particularly. Always just that, you know, be good in school. You
How old were you when you got to be really proficient in English?
After second grade they said that I didn't need English as a Second Language classes anymore, so they sent me to third grade at another school that didn't have that program. So by that time I'd picked up the language easily enough to like speak it fluently.
So having proficiency in English, did that change your relationships in your family as you got older?
Yes. I guess like as I got older and I spoke it more fluently, and
combined with like my personality, like I talk to much, and I'm not as
shy as the other members of my family were in terms of like my sister
and my cousin. Even though they were older than me, I would always be
the one that my father would say, okay, translate for me, okay, speak
for me. And so as I got older I took on more of the responsibilities of
translating
Tell me what kind of jobs you did as the translator. Was it just in speaking, or did you also read things, or what kind of things did you do for your family in that role?
At first it was just speaking. At first it was just, well, my mom goes
to the doctor and I translate. Like I remember it was third grade, my
cousin who was pregnant, you know, this was her first kid. She went into
labor, and later on, my sponsors and everyone else told me it was me,
the one that like translated in the hospital. I wasn't in the delivery
room, but you know, just like the preliminaries, they said it was me.
And they were, you did a good job. But I don't remember that incident at
all. But my father didn't trust me, when I was younger, to sort of read
letters or anything yet. So at first it was just speaking to my sponsors
or speaking to whoever— whichever American had called him, was on the
phone. Or you know, talking— like translating between my teacher,
telling my dad what my teacher was saying about my progress in school
and stuff, which is not a bad thing. And, just—at first just speaking.
But then later on when I could, you know, also read better, my parents
stopped going to our neighbor, our Cambodian neighbor who could read and
speak English. They stopped going to him, and, coming to me for like
little matters, just like, you know, what is this saying, what is that
saying. And I think my first big job was when we bought the house that
we live in now, just sort of, helping out with my parents and with my
dad's friend, who was the one that we had
How old were you when that was?
That was after fourth grade.
So you would have been 10?
Yes. 9 or 10.
Did you write letters or write checks or pay bills or do any of that kind of stuff for your parents?
That didn't come until later on, until probably middle school.
So tell me what you were doing then, as you got to be 12 or 13, what kind of jobs did you have then as a translator?
You know, more of the going to the hospital thing. I got better at that.
And I actually liked it after a while. It was really fun poking around
in the doctor's office, seeing what he had. And at 12 and 13, paying for
the bills. Like my mom, in Cambodian culture, the wife is the one who
takes care of like the bills and handles the money. The husband is the
one that works. So my mom was the one who picked up the responsibility.
I think when we first came it was my father and her, but then after a
while my dad was just like, okay you can handle it now. You know, Ran
can help you and Yi can help you. And so she would get the bills. And
she'd be like, okay, what day do we pay this, so that it won't be late?
And I'd be like, okay, well we can pay these two bills first, and we can
pay these two bills later on in the week. And so just helping her with
that and you know, writing out the checks and mailing them off.
So part of doing that was also teaching you about what your role was supposed to be—
Well, now that you put it that way, well, I don't know. I don't think it was ever meant as that way.
Did you still do translation stuff for your dad? What kind of stuff did you do?
Well, I guess like the things got bigger over the years. Pretty soon it
was like I could go with my dad and my mom to like buy the car without
having another Cambodian translator present. And so it progressed to
that point. And you know, also helping out with my cousin's side of the
family, determining, you know, this is the car, this is how much it is,
this is what the monthly payments are, this is the interest rate,
warranties, or buying life insurance or health insurance, sort of like
explaining to them what's going on, what these things really are and
stuff like that. So I mean, it's all things we need to know
So as you got older you also interacted with a lot more people outside the Cambodian community?
As I got older I also translated for some people outside of the community, and not just within my family. Just like my mom's friend, you know, whenever she needed somebody to go to the doctor, I'd be like, I'll go, miss school, lots of fun.
Well, what did you think about the Americans that you came into contact with at that point when you were 12 and 13 and sort of, you know, acting as the translator for your family or for other Cambodians?
The Americans that I came into contact with, like the doctors and stuff? I don't know, it was good for me to deal with these people, because I was like, wow, I really want to be like them when I grow up. For the longest time I wanted to be a doctor, when I got older. And so in a way they were like my role models. And like my experiences with them were always good, just in terms of, these people, they're really nice. They're the ones that help get us better. They're the ones that always cure us. And so it was always good. Sometimes they'd come in and they were like, who are you? You know, like what are you doing here? You're kind of young to be in here. Can I ask these questions in front of you? But always before I left, they were always like, I am so glad you were here, because you made things go a lot smoother. So in a way it was, it was good to know that— it felt good to know that I was helping not only like the doctor, but like my family as well.
But that was pretty different than maybe some of your other
In a way, as I got older, sometimes I would get frustrated because I'm reading this letter, and I'm like, well what the hell is a premium rate? What is a premium? I mean, what is that? And then you call up the people, the customer line, right? And so customer service, and you know. So you're like, What is the premium rate? And sometimes they talk to you as if you should know this. And they're, like, well let me speak to your parents. My parents can't speak English. Well, I need to speak to another adult. Well, there's no other adult that can understand this, and so you need to say it to me. And then sometimes they get exasperated with you because you're speaking, and then you're like, okay wait a minute, I need to tell that to my parents. And then you'd stop for five minutes and tell your parents. And then you come back and you're like okay, I have another question. And so basically, I guess that's the worst part about having this type of responsibility, is that you know, dealing with people who just don't understand, like who were just never really exposed to like oh, this could be happening. There's a kid in the family that has to actually understand this, and, do you know what I'm saying?
I want to adjust the mike again.
Okay.
But you should still speak to me.
Okay.
Try that again. Just talk a little bit.
Hello, hello, hello.
A little bit more.
Excuse me. So do you hear the rain?
Yes, a little bit.
A little bit. It's very soothing. It makes me want to sleep.
Okay. Try that. Talk a little bit.
Hello Barbara.
That's good. Okay.
Okay.
Okay. So we were talking about being in sort of unique situations because you were translating, and sometimes you had to understand adult concepts it sounds like, and get people to try to explain that to you. So at this point you're in middle school, or you're getting into junior high school, you're starting to get into high school. What's school like, and what are the other kids like and are they nice to you? And what's all that about?
Well, let's see. In middle school, there were other Asians in the
school. There were a couple of Laotians and a couple of Vietnamese, and
also like two of my Cambodian friends from third grade. We were all like
in this middle school. So middle school was actually really fun. It was
good. At that point I was also dancing in the community, and so, I was
pretty busy, what with school and just like studying and stuff. And at
that point I had become a pretty good student, so I was making fairly
good grades. And so, I was happy. So I think middle school
Can you elaborate on your dancing and what that meant to you?
Dancing. Well, the monk here at the community, he started a dance group. And I joined, I think towards sixth or seventh grade. And at first it was like, I just love the art of dancing, seeing it on tapes and stuff, I'm like, wow, I want to be able to do that. And so when the monk was like, okay, well, we're going to offer classes or whatever, I was like, hey, I want to join. I want to do this. And you know, I just want to learn. So basically at that point, it was just like something fun, something that I was like learning. At that point, I don't think the cultural importance of it had really hit, in a way. So it was just like, this is something fun I get to do. I get to go and perform and you know, at different places, and see different things. And I get to be with these other girls who are my age who are doing the same things I'm doing. And so basically it was more of like a fun hobby than anything else.
So at that point you weren't really sort of thinking, oh, this is sort of who I am, or this is about who I am. Was there any of that message in your dance instruction?
I think at that point it was just starting, everything was just starting
to fall into place. My father, my parents are starting to tell me more a
little bit about their experiences. And, the monk himself would always
say, well, you know, I've started this because I know it's important for
Cambodian kids to have this, to be able to like remember this. So I knew
that it was important, but still, I hadn't really focused on why it was
High school?
Probably like eighth grade, ninth grade. But at the same time, I think
in a way it was accumulating. I was slowly working my way towards I
guess like full awareness. So at the same time, though, in middle
school, my two Cambodian friends, it was nice that they were there, in a
way I guess, like growing up, because it was always like, okay
these—they're Cambodians, but they're different from me. They would have
more freedoms from me. They can go to the mall with their American
friends and shop or whatever. And they can go spend the weekend at each
other's house. And they can even come and spend the weekend at my house.
But for my parents, it was always like, well, I can never go over to
their place. And so it was always like, they're Cambodian girls too,
Dad, so why? And, he'd launch into this long lecture about you know,
this is what's right, and this is what's wrong. So what they're doing is
wrong? No, it's not wrong, but we'd just really like for you not to do
it. And at school, I guess just like in terms of like our friends,
always the fact that they were always more American than me. Like so
they always like I guess like fit in more. But at the same time, I don't
know, it was just weird, because seeing us then and seeing us now, it
really makes sense, how our different upbringing, how differences in our
parents' views have changed, you know— have sort of led us onto the
different paths that we now live. We're all in college at different
places, but I'm still here with the Cambodian community, which is what
my parents always stressed and always wanted. And whereas they,
They're more Americanized.
They're more Americanized, definitely.
Did your parents ever think about leaving North Carolina when you were younger?
My mom told me that she has a really good friend who lives in California. And her friend is always like, oh, come on, move out here. We can start a business here together. It was a really good time to start Cambodian stores, whatever, because there's so many Cambodians living there. But my dad—I think he took a trip to like Philadelphia or New York or some big city where there was a lot of Cambodians. And he came back and he absolutely hated it. He was just like, I don't want my kids growing up in that kind of environment. So the question of leaving North Carolina has never really, entered my parents'mind. They really like it here. They really like the fact that it's a small community and there's not many people. And it's not a really big city where kids can get into a lot of trouble. And I think he's made a good judgment to stay here in North Carolina.
What other things do you think your parents like about North Carolina that helped them stay here, outside the Cambodian community?
Outside of the Cambodian community? The fact that there are jobs, you
know, that you can get a job. And I don't know, I think also it helped
that like our sponsors were here. They used to live in Greensboro, but
they're now in Mississippi. The
They would have left if there was no—
They would have left, definitely. So you know, it's kind of like hard to answer. I guess like besides like the accessibility to like a job or whatever, there really wouldn't be any like attraction you know, of North Carolina, for them.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
It's hard to say exactly what your parents think, but do you know if they've experienced a lot of discrimination here or acceptance, or have they found that it's easy to be here or not easy?
I guess, you know, of course like discrimination. Sometimes when you
don't understand, I think it's a lot easier, like for my mom, her grasp
of the language isn't as fluent, but my father can understand English
very well. And so I've heard of like incidents that he's experienced at
work in terms of just like you know, discrimination. But you just can't
escape it. I don't think anywhere that you go you could escape it. But
you know, you meet good people and you meet stupid people, obviously.
Like he was just telling me he works at Gilford Mills, and he works in
shipping. And one of the truck drivers who came in saw him like
unloading whatever was in the truck, like rolls or cloth or whatever,
goes, I have a dog at home. Like, do you eat dogs?
So there is some sense from which you felt that, that you're not welcome here?
It's like you understand that, but you understand things only when bad things happen to you, in a sense, which is really ironic in a way. But you do, you just, you know, you just understand things like when bad things happen to you, like when you're having fun, at school playing with' all of your friends or whatever, you don't— just like the fifth grade incident, like it was really exciting being with my friends, I felt like I was fitting in. I ran for class president in the fifth grade. I lost, but just the fact that I feel like a part of the school. I feel like these other kids. You don't distinguish and say that you're different until something like that happened. Like out of the whole school, that kind of comment was made to nobody but me, you know? So in a way, like when things like that happen, it's then that you understand, oh, you're different.
So as you got a little bit older, and I know that you went to a pretty special high school here in Greensboro. Maybe you could tell us the name, but also tell us a little bit about that experience in high school.
I went to Smith High School, which is probably the most diverse high
school in Greensboro. And it also has one of the worst reputations in
terms of academics. But let's see. High school was pretty fun. But at
the same time, I'm Cambodian, you know, like I've always known. I've
always known that. And you know, I like being Cambodian. But in high
school, I saw Cambodians who didn't like to be Cambodians. And that was
something that made me like being Cambodian even more. Just the fact
that here's this
Well, when you say that, when you say they didn't like being Cambodian, how did you know that? Did they do things?
Well, I mean they would say that they're not Cambodian. And they would dress and act differently, and not associate with us.
What would they say they were?
Blacks, or Vietnamese, or just plain American. I'm American. I was born here. Sure you were—
Were there a lot of other kids that were like you, who were proud of being Cambodian?
Definitely. I think the majority of us were just like, we're Cambodians,
hello. We know where we're from. Like Vandy and I are close friends, and
we went through high school together. And so we were always the ones
that were together. We were always the ones that were like, okay,
International Day, Cambodia is going to dance. So we'd get up there,
organize all the kids and do a dance. And it'd be good. But at the same
time, there would be people who'd be like, well, why are you so adamant
about doing this? It's really not all that important. But at the same
time, they
You mentioned International Day. What other ways do you think Smith High School helped you kind of figure out, you know, where you were and where you stood? What were the teachers like?
It's kind of hard in a school setting to really do that. In school, I went to classes, I just did what I needed to do in class or whatever. We didn't really ever talk about it. But I remember in history class, we'd talk about you know, the Indian civilization and all these other great civilizations. And I'm like, wow, well, I wish we could mention the Ankor Civilization, because you know, I can relate to that. I know a little bit about that. But you know, Cambodia is not really important, so, you know, skip. We didn't really hit on that much. And then just in terms of whenever we had an intro to all the religions, , and then you know, Buddhism comes up. And, I know about that. But then we'd spend ten minutes on it. So it was just kind of like this is the teacher's agenda, you know. Cambodia or Asian history is not on the agenda. It's all American history, which is understandable. We're here in America so that's what you're taught in high school.
Do you think there were other kids who weren't Cambodian but weren't also Americans that felt the same way you did, that they didn't see themselves much?
Definitely. All the other Southeast Asian refugee students who were
there, definitely. I guess like the Vietnamese people feel like they get
a little bit more simply because of the Vietnam War and stuff. But then
again, it's negative attention. Do you know
Did you ever mention any of that to your teachers, about being interested in studying more about Asian history or Buddhism or anything like that, or did you just look for that information in other places?
I just looked for it in other places. Like whenever we had a paper due, out of all the list of the topics there were to do, I'd be like, I want to do it on the Khmer Rouge. So, I'd do it on the Khmer Rouge. Or pick a country and make a booklet of it or whatever, okay, I'd pick Cambodia. So in a way, I'd always try to combine what the teacher wanted me to do with what I wanted to learn, really, because I want to learn about my country, because I don't get the chance to in a classroom setting. So I'd always take whatever opportunities I could.
Did some of that learning happen at home? Did your parents try to teach you a little bit about your—
Definitely. My father would go on about all of what happened, like the
politics and stuff, like with dates and stuff, how he remembered it,
and, what happened, and his opinions and his views and stuff. So that
was good for me. It sort of gave me a perspective. And it gave me the
initiative to find out more. Because I was like, wow, this is
Were there other places that you learned a little bit more about where you came from?
Cambodian community. The old people would always talk about it. Somehow or another, conversations would just turn to that, or some incident or some remark would just pop up into somebody's head, and then they would mention it. And sometimes, it's funny how you can sit back now and you can find humor in like during all these times, just the fact that somebody was hiding in, you know, find out they were hiding in a pile of crap or whatever. And so then it was scary, but now it's kind of funny what you did. But definitely like hearing the old people talk about it.
Well, tell me what kind of stories they told you. Can you remember any of the things they told you?
From my parents it was always like you know, just like in a way it was
always like different, like the experience. Like this is what happened
in Kao-I-Dang [refugee camp]. This is where we lived, this is what your
dad did. And when your sister was born, this is what happened. We were
making our way to Thailand, you know, on foot, this is what happened.
This is what I saw. This is what your grandmother said. And never
actually really what happened with the Khmer Rouge besides like, they
wanted to send me here. They told me that I had to marry between these
two people, I had to pick somebody, so I picked your
So people do talk about that, they think it's important for young people here to know more about the history?
I think it's up to their parents. I think for some parents, they definitely want to put it behind them, and so they don't mention it as much. But there are other parents who are like, you know, I really want for my kids to know.
Now, when you were in high school, I think you also did a little bit more dancing.
Yes.
And so maybe you could talk a little bit about what you did, what you learned. Why was that important in shaping who you are?
In high school? Let's see, the dancing, when we first started, like I said, it was just kind of, this is fun. This is something that not many other people can do, so it's something really special that I want to hold onto. But then I got older, and it was just like, wow, you know. And this type of dancing—
Can you say what kind of dancing it is, and describe it?
Cambodian classical dancing and Cambodian folk dancing. Not even so much
as what each dance meant, like the meanings of each dance, but why it is
that we
How did dancing make you feel about yourself?
It made me feel good. It's hard getting up before a group of people and doing something that's so different. Because sometimes you're doing a performance, and you see someone get up and leave. And you're like, oh, it must be boring, or they don't enjoy it. They're like, what is that going on up there? What are they doing? But then afterwards, you know, when people come up and tell you, that was really amazing what you did, and that was just really beautiful, it just makes you feel so good that you're making somebody else happy simply because of what you love to do yourself.
So you went through high school and you graduated from high school. And
then you probably faced some choices about your future. Can you talk a
little
Well, I always knew I was going to college. First and foremost, I was like, I'm going to college. I guess like my parents made sure of that. And, I'll just go to a state school, whatever. But then one of my friends that I met through a vocational club at school, HOSA, she was like, you've got to come to see Salem College. She's like, it's the absolute best college in the world, you know. I'm going there right now. She was a freshman at that time at that college. And she really loved it. And I was like, well, let me consider—I'd gotten like one of their cards or whatever. And I was like let me go and check this place out. I got some more information, got their catalog, got their application, and I filled it out. And I went to check the campus. And it's a nice school. It's really small. And my parents really liked it simply because it was small, it was close to home, and it was all girls. And so, I filled out the application, got a scholarship. And I think that was what really made me go there.
That was a different choice than your older sister made. Can you talk a little bit about the differences? She's, what, four years older than you?
Yes, she's four years older than I am. After my sister graduated from
high school, she got married. She was in an arranged marriage, and
that's your culture, that's our society. And so she agreed to it, but at
the same time her plans and my parents' plans were a little bit
different But growing up, you don't ever think about yourself first, you
sort of think about what your parents and your family needs first. And
so, with that in mind,
It's okay.
Excuse me. That was my stomach. They always knew that I had this plan, I wanted to get an education. And that was equally as important to them as it was to me. And even for my sister, even though she made the decision to get married, she did continue her education after she got married, so my parents supported her totally in that aspect. For her at that time, that was what made my parents happy, that she got married. And for me, when it was my time, what made my parents happy was that I went and furthered my education by going to college. They would have loved it if I'd stayed at home and gone to college, but at the same time, I think they understood that I needed a little bit more space and stuff.
Before you said that sometimes the doctors and some of the people that you met were role models. Did you have Cambodian role models also, if so, who would those be, do you think?
Cambodian role models. Not really. I have this respect for all of the
elder people in the community. You're just instilled with that. But I
think a Cambodian role model— well, the monk, he's not Cambodian. But
growing up he was one of my main role models, just in terms of he's just
like this good funny guy that I grew up with, and he's just
And so as you're going to college and you're now starting to, again, being in the company, living away from home, of even more non-Cambodians, how does that make you feel? Do you feel like you have to figure out who you are now because you're away from those people, or what kind of things happen to you?
I think, well, you have to know Salem. Salem is very small. And I am one of two Cambodians there. And the school itself is not very diverse. It's pretty diverse for a school like it's size. But at the same time you walk into Salem, and automatically, you're a minority. And just the fact that I'm around all of these other ladies who are Americans. And they can trace their family back to wherever. And they know exactly, where they're from. But, then they ask me, where are you from? Well, I'm from Cambodia. Oh, where's that at? Oh, it's this little country in Southeast Asia. Where's that at? Well, it's in Asia. So in a way it made me force myself to discover who it was I really am— who I really am. Because in order to answer other people, you have to know what the answer is yourself first. And so just in terms of little questions, like where is Cambodia, and stuff like that, you can give them a quick answer. But at the same time, I don't know—it's really hard to explain. Like I said, when bad things happen, that's when you understand. So like I told you the incident before, it didn't really hit home until then, you know?
Would you mind telling that story again, or is that too hard?
I can tell it again. Well, first of all, in the dorm that I lived in,
one end
What are those things you think you need to keep in order to remain Cambodian?
My religion, first of all, even though Buddhism isn't just strictly
Cambodian. There are certain, I guess certain traditions that's known
only to Cambodian Buddhists. And just my history, all of it, not just
the good parts of it, but also the bad parts of it, because that's what
happened. Here in America, you have everything written down in the
books. I mean, everything from the point that the pilgrims landed or
whichever explorer it was that landed on this coast or that coast. I
mean, it's all written down up to World War I, the Depression, the
Vietnam War, the Cold War. Everything is just written down. So to me,
why is history taught in American schools? Because it's so important,
because it identifies where you came from, and just everything. And so
to me, being able to be Cambodian is like having that history, keeping
that history, because it's different. Not all of us have the same
history. Every group of people have their own history. And it tells you
a little bit of how their culture is, it explains why they are who they
are. So my history explains why I am who I am, in a way, you know? And
also, keeping the values and the ideas taught to me from my parents.
Always in terms of something as simple as like respect is shown to your
elders, not just to your parents or to your grandparents, but also to
your elders, to the point where if you walk behind an elderly person,
you don't walk
Recently I know you've made a big transition, though. You've decided to become an American citizen. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to that decision and why, and what that process was like?
I became a Cambodian citizen because—
An American—
Just kidding. I became an American citizen because it's easier to travel. If you want to go out of the country and come back, it's easier to travel, it's easier to do so. And considering the possibility of study abroad or whatever, I just went ahead and decided that it would be good if I was a citizen. And also I've lived here for so long that I can't imagine ever going back to Cambodia and living there. That may be a possibility, but who knows, in the future. So becoming a Cambodian (sic) citizen was just like this is my official permission to remain here, so like security.
Was it a hard decision? Did other people in your family and your community have comments about it?
Not really. Like actually a lot of people in my community were trying to get naturalized, like my father tried to get naturalized and stuff. But everybody was like, it's important that you become a citizen so that you get all the rights that other citizens have here just in terms of—they worry about Social Security benefits or whatever. So just in terms of those benefits, you do want to become a citizen.
Were there some people who didn't think it was a good idea? What did they say?
Well, I guess for parents, or for a woman, there wasn't really as much fear. But for the men, everybody was like, what if there's a war , when we're citizens, we'll get drafted, and we'll have to fight in the war too and stuff. And so, this big fear that if you're a guy, then it's to just to remain a non-citizen.
Well, do some people think that if you're a citizen, and American citizen, you're not a Cambodian?
I don't think so, because as sad as it seems honestly, after becoming
naturalized I'm still the same person. I just have this official
document that says I have the rights of every American citizen, and I
have the protection of an American. So in a way it's kind of we're
taking advantage of the system, but it's true. But at the same time I
guess especially for my peers, who are my age and who get naturalized,
in a way we go through the American educational system. We've lived here
so long, we've adopted so many American -isms, like pro-democracy,
pro-capitalism, all that— all of those ideals that America— like that
you associate with America, you know, or that you associate with the
western world. So in a way like it's just an admission to the fact that,
hey,
How old are you?
I'm 20.
So you can't vote yet?
I can vote. I voted.
At 18, right?
Yes. But I got naturalized, and I actually voted in this election.
Do you think American families and Cambodian families are different?
American families and Cambodian families? Well, there's differences and
then there's similarities. I guess, like with every family, we're taught
like the basics, the same things, I guess like all the ideals of like
don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't kill, blah, blah, blah, all
those things. So in that respect we're all the same. But American
families, simply because of their culture, they're given a whole lot
more freedom. My American friends are obviously different from me in
terms of the kinds of privileges that they get. Dating is a good
example. Dating is very common in American society, like every— the only
difference is at what age. Families might differ in what age they want
their kids to
What do you think is going to happen in your future, Ran? How do you envision your future?
Well, there's the idealistic one, and there's a realistic one, so I don't know. I guess for me, I'm very attached to my family. Even my friends have told me, Ran, you're too attached, maybe. But for me, I want to finish my education. And I want to get a job that I like and that will support my family in the future. And so that to me is priority right now, just in terms of education and then finding a job. But also I think in the future, I don't know, I can't see beyond being with my family, and just doing whatever I can to make them happy. But at the same time, I do see myself going back for Cambodia to spend some time there, meet some of my relatives who are there. I have a cousin who's there. And I talked to him for the first time ever a while back, a couple weeks ago. But just visiting there, just going back to see where my parents lived, and Angkor Wat and everything, but also going to see other places, I think, in my future. I really, really want to travel. I think just being able to see where Ethiopia is, for example —- I guess just see and learn and learn and learn.
What do you think your parents think about their futures or about your future?
I don't know. I guess for every parent they hope that their children
Do you think that sometimes the fact, as you say, that you're Cambodian but you're also American but your parents are really Cambodian —are there conflicts there?
Oh, definitely, lots of conflicts. For example, just in terms of , my father is very traditional, and he's also very religious. And so some of the things that he ideals and that he subscribes to, I totally don't agree with. Just in terms of, for example, something that we always have conflicts with each other is about, is the role of women. Not that he puts women down and he says that women are inferior or subservient. I a have a younger brother, and he's never encouraged my brother to get more of an education than me. And I actually have friends who are from cultures where their parents do show so much more bias towards the son than the daughter. My father is not like that at all. But at the same time just in terms of responsibilities, the woman or females have more responsibility to be good, to like remain within the boundaries of the culture and to not date and stuff, whereas the boys can overstep those boundaries and not get into trouble.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
—in that respect, my father and I come into conflict, because I'm like,
no, whoever oversteps the boundaries is equally as wrong, no matter what
gender they are.
What about with your grandma?
My grandmother?
Do you guys find that because you're a little more American sometimes there's—
Yes. Well, just in terms of— my grandmother, she's so funny. She's like, well, after you finish college don't go anywhere. Stay at home and work. And you don't have to go to school anymore, because if I go to school I'll be away from home again. So she's in that fact—it's not even traditional or a traditional idea maybe, but just the fact that she wants all of her grandchildren to be near her, to stay with her. Whereas for me, I guess the lure of higher education, I guess, prompts me to consider other alternatives than just staying at home, and getting an education here. I'll maybe want to go to school far away, or find a job away from home, you know?
Do you consider North Carolina your home?
Yes. This is the only home I've ever known. I don't remember my first four years over in Thailand. I wasn't even born in Cambodian. I was born in Kao-I-Dang. I probably have one or two memories from there. But so far as I know, this is home for me.
Do you think your parents think that?
No.
What's home for hem?
Home for them was what they left behind, cause that was where they spent their childhood and the majority of their lives were spent over there, so they remember it very vividly. And for them, they were— I don't know if I can say happier over there, but it's different. It's different being here than being over in your own country where everybody is like you. And so for them I think that's always like their true home.
When you think about North Carolina, do you think of it as a specific place in the United States? What makes it what it is? How would you describe it?
North Carolina. I can't say it's the most exciting state to live in, but I think it's a very— I've never lived in another state, so I don't have a point of reference. But I guess it's a good state to live in. I don't know. I've never lived in another place.
Well, when you think about even other people, other Cambodian people you've met from other places, how does North Carolina compare to California or Washington or other places that Cambodians live?
Well, I think in the big states like California where there's a really
big population of Cambodians, I think that it's harder. It's harder
there, just in terms of North Carolina, definitely, the Cambodian
population here is much, much smaller, and much more attached to the
temple. And the community is very important. And so I think the kids are
raised with more of that in mind, and so their outlook and their
acceptance of the culture is more open. Whereas in California, I think
it's gone to the point where there's no more focus on religion or on the
community. And so you know, my perspective of kids who are raised there
Even though there's more Cambodians?
Even though there's more Cambodians. And there's also more problems over there, just in terms of gangs and stuff like that. I hear this from people who move from California, or you hear this from parents who live over there, who are just like, well, my kid is just out of control. And I don't think it's fair to say that's all Cambodian families, or all Cambodian kids who are over there. Maybe it's true for only a small proportion.
You've told me before that a lot of the girls that you go to school with are from small towns in North Carolina.
Yes.
And most of them are white, right?
Yes.
What impact do you think new communities of people— I mean, there's Cambodians, there's Vietnamese, there's Hmong. What impact do these new communities, do you think, have on North Carolina? How has that changed North Carolina? Do you have any sense of that?
What these new communities, like Asian, like Hmong and like Laotian and
stuff like that, what impact they have on North Carolina? I don't know.
I think like these communities have been here for a while now, and so
people are now just getting used to them. But at the same time, I think
there's still a lot of North Carolina that doesn't understand these
communities.
Well, do you think the addition of these new communities has been a good thing for North Carolina? Are there good things that these communities bring? What do you think those might be?
I think it's good. You drive down some streets in North Carolina now and you'll see Vietnamese restaurants. You know, hello America, welcome to Vietnamese food, you know. It's a taste of Vietnam here without having to go all the way to their country, and so just in terms of new things, new ideas. And I don't know, I like diversity. That's because I'm different, but some people may not like it. But I think diversity is a good thing. And I think if the American Government allows it, then people should try to accept it.
What ways do you think teachers in schools could help kids who are different feel more a part of things?
In a way, you hate to be pointed out, but at the same time, teachers in
school— I don't know— I think that once you get into the classroom like
you know you focus on the subject. But I think overall for the school, I
think it's good to have days or events that are specifically for these
people to perform or to talk. Like at Salem College, we had an
international dinner just last week. And it was great, because some of
these girls have never had food from Ethiopia. So when they had indetto
(phonetic), we were just like, oh, she didn't like it. I see her plate
is all going in the trash. And then others were like, oh, this is so
good, what do you call it, and stuff. So just in terms of exposing them
to who you really are, like this is what you eat, this is what you wear
and stuff, in a way it gives definition to the word Ethiopian, or to the
word Cambodian. It's not just because we live in America, it's not just
a word to me now, it's who my friends are. It's, who my teachers are. I
understand what it is to be American. It's not an empty identity. Do you
know what I'm saying? Whereas I think when some girls who meet
I know that in Greensboro and in North Carolina in general, there's more and more Cambodians moving here. Why do you think they're coming?
Like I said, maybe they're just not liking it out from where they're at.
But they could go anywhere. Why do you think they come here? What's good here for them?
Well, I think jobs. Also there's already some established Cambodian communities in North Carolina, like in Charlotte and Greensboro, Lexington. There's already some established communities here. So when you're moving, you try to find common people. So it's not too big here, but yet there's still some people here who are like me, who I can relate to. And I think some people too have a lot of relatives who live here.
You said before that you thought also that the cities were smaller here. Do you think that there's any attachment sort of to the landscape that people might like. Can you talk a little bit about that? What are qualities of North Carolina that Cambodian people might like?
The fact that you don't have to live in an apartment. Back in
Let's see. Do you think people who do move here come to think of themselves as North Carolinians, or do they still just think of themselves as refugees in a new country? Do you know what I mean?
Yes. I think for my— I don't know. I really don't know how the other people would think about it. But just from my dad's point of view, first and foremost, this is America, this isn't Cambodia. So I guess in that respect, first and foremost, he's an immigrant, a refugee. He's borrowing somebody else's home to live in.
Do you think if people, if they had the opportunity, would go
Oh, definitely. I think for the older people, if they had the assurance that there would never, ever be an incident like the Khmer Rouge again, and if they could trust the government, then I think that they would definitely take all their money out of the accounts and go back and live in Cambodia. But they're like, heck, Cambodia— you just get to do a lot more, especially now that they have money, they can even do a lot more. Life would be a whole lot, you know, better.
Now, you've talked a little bit about the struggle you've had to sort of— well, I don't know if it's even a struggle, but your experience, sort of figuring out how you would identify yourself. And what about some of the other people you know that are your age, do you think they've had similar experiences to you, or do you think that they've had an easier time, a harder time? How do you think they would identify themselves? For example, you said you grew up with a young woman named Romato who lived behind you. Has she made similar choices than you, or has she made different ones?
We've all made, in a sense, different choices. But I think for her she's
not a part of the Cambodian community. She used to be, but then she quit
dancing and then she didn't hang out with Cambodian friends anymore. And
her whole sense of fun was something else, was what her new friends
liked to do, and it's not exactly what Cambodian culture thinks that you
should like to. I guess in her decision to go along with that, she's
made the choice of abandoning what Cambodians think is right. And for
that, I think she gets judged in a negative way. But you know, just
judging from her family, it's not totally her fault. These were the
And then on the other hand, you might be able to argue that their parents were trying to earn money and just support them in that kind of thing, or people who don't have two parents, or things like that.
True, but I think that you can find a balance, somewhere along the way. It's just like priority, what is—obviously, their biggest priority was financial. And to my parents, I think you know, we'd rather have a little less, but I guess be more within the community, and be more within the temple. Instead of working seven days, they'd rather work five days and have two days off to be a part of the temple ceremonies and stuff.
Well, do you think that some of the kids who've made some of those choices feel good about themselves, or are they having troubles, or are they just fine? I mean, maybe they're becoming more assimilated has been okay for them.
I think they're just fine. I think after a while they've just gotten so used to who they are, that it would be harder for them to try to come back to the community. Or when they're in the community, they may not feel like they belong.
So just as a final question, and I know I've sort of asked you this, but maybe you could kind of just sum it up: How would you identify yourself if you were meeting me for the first time, and I didn't know you, what would you tell me about yourself?
Hey, my name is Ran Kong. I'm Cambodian. You know, I'm from Cambodia. It's a little country in Southeast Asia. And I've been here all my life, so there's—
So you're American too?
I'm Cambodian-American. It's a great mix.
END OF INTERVIEW