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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
K-0285, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
In this interview, Pentecostal pastor Bert Pickett provides a compelling description of the abject despair that accompanied Hurricane Floyd's devastation. Pickett lost nearly all his possessions. The interview sees Pickett articulating his coping process—he avers his dignity and pride but confesses his absolute grief as well. He worries that he will lose the respect of his son and talks at length about the presence of evil in his community, whether manifested in people who defraud aid organizations or the destructive power of the flooding. This is a rich interview for someone interested in learning about the psychological impact of environmental disasters.
Pentecostal pastor Bert Pickett provides a compelling description of the despair that accompanied Hurricane Floyd's devastation.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I'm Charlie Thompson. I'm with the Southern Oral History Program. I'm here with Elder Bert Pickett who is the pastor of the—
Church in Wallace, Mount Pleasant All Saint Pentecostal Holiness Church in Wallace.
And now we're here in the White Stocking community at his house. It's December 18, exactly one week away from Christmas. We're standing here beside his FEMA trailer and outside of his home, where the Christmas tree is set up outside, right here, underneath the awning of the trailer. We're talking about the flood that's still here with us really.
About fourteen weeks after the storm.
Fourteen weeks.
Something like that I think.
So, if you would tell us about how long you've been here in the community. Tell us some about the community itself—the White Stocking community.
Well, I've been here twenty-five years in this community, twenty-five years. This is kind of a quiet community. It's grown since I've been here probably about one hundred and fifty percent.
A hundred and fifty percent.
Probably grown that much since I've been here. When I came down here there weren't that many houses, twenty-five years ago. Kind of a quiet community and you have—and this is what you call a working community. A lot of people come and retire here, but you've got a lot of hard working people that live in this community. I bought this land right here from the contractor that built my house.
How much land is here?
Well, I actually own about a half an acre.
Right here along the highway. They call this White Stocking Road?
White Stocking Road. I live on 2625 White Stocking Road. I still keep my—when I lived in Burgaw town, if you call it a town—I keep my post office box. I don't get rural mail. I get mine at the post office. But it's still White Stocking Road.
Has your family always been here in Pender County that you know of?
Yes. My family has been here for almost a hundred years probably in the county. My daddy died in'96 and he was ninety-two; so, most of our family came out of Duplin and Pender.
Do you know how—do you know any history about where your family came from?
No. As far as I can go back is Duplin County. My ancestors came out of Duplin County—the Picketts. I guess, when they were freed, I think, or something. I can't go too far back.
Did they become farmers at that point in this community?
I'm originally from the Maple Hill community.
Maple Hill, okay.
And they were farmers, just like any other community, carpenters. My
daddy used to work in the—my granddaddy, back then, you're
talking sixty or seventy years ago, he was a logger—worked in
the log wood—which my dad would tell me about. But he died
when my dad was a teenager or early teen, and he had to take over the
family. He grew up and did the best he could. Back then, my granddaddy
made a lot of
No. I really want—what we've done so far is talk about what people had, so then we know how long they've been here, and we have an idea of what they've lost. So no, you're not going off on a wrong track.
So I'm just saying how I came up. I'm the first in my family that went to— that finished high school. I went in the military. I had another brother that went to the military. My daddy was a farmer, worked on a farm. He never did make much money. We were poor, but we didn't know we were poor because we had clothes and we had food. We had hogs and chickens. I guess, it's not the amount of money you make to live well because we always—I've never been hungry. My dad always took care of us. Now I believe the same thing. I believe in working. I've been working since I was thirteen.
And you have another job?
Yeah. I work on Camp Lejeune. I didn't get home this morning until about five something because I left the job at four o'clock this morning. I've been working as a —I work in a big store, the commissary. I'm the night foreman there. We stock what everybody takes out during the day. I've been there for about—I just got my thirty-year plaque. I asked if they could give me another one because it got destroyed in the flood. So I've been with the government for thirty years—with my military time, two years in the military.
So right after you got back from Vietnam, you stayed in and worked at Camp Lejeune?
Yeah. When I got back from Vietnam, I didn't work for about six months because I got kind of wounded. I got hit in the back of the—I got medevaced back after about eight months in Vietnam.
With shrapnel.
Before the rocket hit my personnel carrier. It was just the goodness of God I didn't get killed. Nobody got—I got the worst wound that day in my platoon. That was good. I just got a million dollar wound. Something to get you off the front line because I didn't really see coming back here alive, really didn't.
Because it was so bad.
Yeah. And this is the worst thing since Vietnam. I'm telling you the truth. This is devastating to lose everything you've worked for, for twenty-five years. And some people down here have worked longer than I have, you know, older than I am— sixty-year-olds and seventy-year old and eighty-year-old people. It's time for them to not work anymore, seventy and eighty-year-old people. If you haven't accumulated it by then, you won't get it. That's why I'm so hurt for other folk. Somebody asked me, "Did you ever ask God why?" I said, "Yeah." I say this, "Why not me only and let the other people because I'm a fighter." I don't give up. Some people have already given up. You can tell it in their voice, the hurt.
How can you tell in someone's voice, you know what I'm saying?
Well, well. When they're talking to you, the things they say are always
negative. You see, more people'll come by and say you're a flood victim.
I don't like to
It was not flooded?
Nothing happened to it, maybe two shingles, maybe. So much now it's nothing. I had a dream, I told them last Sunday, I dreamt that somebody wrote me a seven thousand-dollar check. I was thinking about for the church. I'm just thinking, I've got church on my mind, finishing their building. Some things going to take—my air conditioning unit is going to take seven thousand dollars to get that completed. I had a dream that somebody, I never could see the person's face—this was like three or four weeks before the storm came. Ironic as that sounds to me, I guess when you look at it, I see where the money was coming from. I couldn't figure out, why was somebody writing me a check and I couldn't see their face. It was like in a dream. I guess it was like a— some people say vision—I say God showing me things that I couldn't really interpret. But after this happened, I saw what it was. Money's going to come in, but we're going to need every bit of it. Seven thousand dollars won't put— won't do anything, won't buy half your furniture.
And you did lose everything. You lost all your furniture.
Everything. All your furniture. I saved a few clothes, shoes, good shoes— Sunday go to meeting shoes, that they call them. But that's, the house is more important than anything else that I lost. But if I can get it back like I want to, I can take my time. Your personal things—you lost things that can never be replaced like your pictures that you've taken of Vietnam. Your family pictures that you've taken. Some that are damaged beyond repair. Things that you just can't get back. A friend that's dead that you won't see them again, you had their photo. You had your photos of your friends from Vietnam. You can't get them back because you don't know where the guys are. You are talking about thirty years ago, '66, '67, '68. So that's gone. All you've got are memories. How are you going to—. It's hard to put into a picture sometimes. This was a blow, a hard blow to a lot of people. It was about—in this community, a couple weeks before this storm came—we had a storm before this one, small.
Dennis, right?
Dennis. And one of my deacons and I came by and I said, "Let's just be nosy." And so we were going in the community to see how many houses. I didn't really know that that many people lived down here. I figured, we counted close to about two hundred families down here—close to it. I counted so many mobile homes, doublewides, and things that I just stopped counting. I went down to this one place and counted over forty. And there's like, in one section there might be forty, and then you've got four different sections. So I'm figuring, it's close to two hundred families down here. Very close to it.
All of them flooded?
Yeah, everybody. Ninety—I think we had five houses out here probably that didn't flood. Some parts of it might have just flooded a little bit. But they were flooded in. If they weren't in the house, you couldn't get out. You had to get out on a boat. We had to leave on Friday morning—Friday afternoon—about two o'clock on a boat.
Why did people come down here in White Stocking? Do you have any idea about what drove people down here to live? And why are the new people coming?
It's quiet. It's good, a good area. The cost of living isn't really that bad. If you've got your transportation, you can leave here easily. The only thing you need here is your transportation and you got it made. It's a good area to live here. You see, it's like this here, only time it's not is during the fishing time and when the hunters are down here. It's a good area to live in.
Because there's a boat launch ramp.
Yeah.
About a mile. Yeah we did go down there.
Did you see where the water line was?
There was one for Floyd and one for Fran down here, about a ten-foot difference. So it's been a quiet place to live?
A good place to live. People work, tend to their business, and you know folk. And what's so good about it, everybody's like a community now, even better. At one time, we were working too much and hardly had time to communicate. But now, I told the people, now we've got time to talk. It's a bad way to be. But now things have happened, so you've got to communicate. Well, everybody—this is a working community. People work. White and black work.
Now white and black live in White Stocking?
Yeah. Some live back behind, the lady where you just interviewed. White folk live back closer to the water. You've got—live all over, like scattered. When you first come in, mostly white. Down here, in this section here, white and black. And around in there, white and black. It's a mixture. And it done this since I've been here. When I first came here you could count—twenty-five years ago, you could count the houses, count the families. You knew the families. But now it's grown so much, by me working nights basically, you don't even know who's back here now. It's grown just that much. It's really a nice community though. It really is. It's a good place to live.
That AME Church down here is a center—
Was.
Point, was, of the community.
It got destroyed. It about broke my heart. That's God's house, man, it got devastated. Just like my house, but it's God's house. It got devastated. And everybody's house got hit basically. Just got destroyed. Water got in it just like everything else. And it really was a bad thing happened to good people.
And y'all live here close to the river on one side and this other lady down there on the other side. Describe that.
This is like a swamp off from the river. That's not the river there.
That's like a swamp off from the river, behind my house. That's where
the water came like from Fran. And when the water got high, you could
just ride there. No force. When it came up from Fran, we had fish across
the highway. We didn't see any fish in this water. I haven't seen one,
the first fish. I was gone probably. But we didn't see any fish. When
In front.
Yes, and beside us. It didn't come like you expect the water to get high like this. It didn't do that. That's why it's so—it got everybody so disturbed. The water didn't move like it normally moved. Everybody was saying it was turned down from Raleigh. That's what they feel like, it's (covert) in there.
You were saying that earlier, and we didn't get that on tape.
I was talking to—when the storm came, I was out of work for a
month. I didn't go to work for a month. Thank God, I had a decent job,
and I had leave time, and I could stay out a month. And I didn't suffer
anything but just a loss. I could still have my—pay my bills
and do. I was talking to one of the guys—my computer,
something happened to my computer, so I called Ohio and one of the guys
said, "Oh, you're the people down in that storm area."
He says, "I heard it covered on the news that they let the
water off and they had to do it, they would do it again. They let the
water on y'all." I said, "You say what?" Now
he doesn't know anything about North Carolina except what he heard on
the news. And my niece lives in Maryland, and she said the same thing.
It was like shown one time, and it wasn't anymore. So I'm saying, I can
understand keep from having a flash flood. I can understand that. But
then if the government, the state government, did that, they should make
everybody whole. But I worked for the government long enough to know
they can't admit any guilt. If they do, then they've got to pay to the
people that are dead—fifty people died throughout this
thing—and they've got to do everything to make everybody
whole. They should if they did that, whether you've
How have they helped?
They came down here—food, clothes when you really needed it.
When you couldn't get out, didn't have transportation. See one time, we
didn't have any transportation. They would come in and turn out your
house. Everybody looks at you
Well, yeah. You had four or five vehicles lost.
In the family, because my wife's aunt came down to live with us. There were five cars lost in one family. I lost three of my own. My daughter lost one. And my wife's first cousin lost a car. So that's five in one family—she was in because they lived in a doublewide. We should've all moved out there because nothing happened out there. When the water came and got high, she was sick and we had to take care of her and take her out. When I saw the water rise over my Pontiac, a little Grand Prix, the tire, I saw the water go from under the tire to over the top, I said, "It's time for me to go." It's about an inch on that porch—come in on that porch. I said, "It's time for me to go."
And that was on Thursday?
On Friday.
Okay. Wednesday the hurricane came—
Wednesday night. Wednesday evening, Wednesday night.
And there were winds but nothing big.
I got a call from my cousin in Maple Hill says—he knew where I lived. He said, "Man, I got water in my den a foot deep." I didn't have nothing, man. I'm doing all right. Right then—.
That was on Friday.
That was on Thursday.
On the 16th, and then on the 17th—.
That was when it all hit the fan.
You started—okay. When you said, "I got to get out of here", how did you do it? Did you get in a boat?
In a boat, I got my family out on a boat. I left last. That man over there—that lady Murray and Wilson—we were going to stay right around because we didn't want people coming in the neighborhood and—. We didn't think the water would—nobody thought the water would get that high. So we were going to fight it out like some of the other men. It got a little bit high said, "It's time to go." So we all got—.
Did you already have a boat?
We had a boat. We went out on a boat with friends and neighbors that came and took us out. Matter of fact, a white gentleman took my wife and aunt and I think—. Something like that—I went on his boat.
Do you remember what his name was?
Huh uh.
He just came, somebody you didn't even know.
Well, we know each other. Well, we live down here. You see each other. But you don't know—.
So he's from the community?
From the community. Yeah. And he was taking people. He didn't know where
his wife—they were out, but he didn't know where they were. He
was one of the folk that I said—evidently he had lost before.
Not through a flood but he said—it's hard to come back once or
twice. He said, "This was my second time." He was
ready to give up.
Man.
Some places it was lower.
They're thirty feet.
Yeah. Some places it was lower. He said I could've stood in my boat, man, and grabbed the light line. It's unbelievable—you could—it's just unbelievable. You can look at the water lines on the trees and tell how high it was. It would take a nine-foot man. A nine-foot man in every yard could've been real safe. He wouldn't have to worry about drowning. Other than that, a man six feet or seven feet, he's through. If he'd have hit a hole then he's drowned. That's bad, man.
So where did you go? Where did the community go?
Well, some went to Camp Kirkwood. The Presbyterian Church has a campsite across One seventeen about five miles from here. Most of the community went there. I went—some went to their family outside of this community. I went to my wife's aunt. We all moved in there—a doublewide. I stayed there for about three weeks, I believe, something like that.
And how long did the people stay at this camp?
About a month, a little bit longer. Probably until we got our trailers back in.
So you were staying at your wife's aunt's house, and you came back into the community. How long did it take before you were able to come back here?
About a month.
Before you could even see your house?
No. I came back about eleven days after, I think, because I didn't come back on the boat. I didn't—I saw enough because I knew what it was like. Some people took their boats and came back in that Sunday. I came down—I didn't want to come back here. I came back in when the water was down but your yard was still wet. I came back in about twelve days. The water is in about ten; about twelve days, I came in.
The water was in your house for ten days?
Yeah. Eight to ten days, we know that much.
You were talking in the house, when you were in there, about the water being angry.
Yes. This water had a force behind it. The first brick house as you come
here, before that dumpster. You go look at the corner of the house, and
you can see
So what did—did you have to take all that out all by yourself?
No. We had a group, like I was talking about—the church group
came from Wilmington: people that were pharmacists, workers at Corning,
workers at different walks of life. They came by; and they had prayer;
and after about six hours, my house was like it is now. They just did a
tremendous job. And I really, I was devastated. I'm still devastated to
tell you the truth. But then—I was looking at it then
wondering, "How am I going to get all this stuff out of my
house?" because it would take me a month to do what they did in
about six or seven hours. They came and they worked hard—seven
men and one woman, I think, one lady. And they were all white. I can say
they came to our rescue. That's what's so good about—if any
good thing came out of this, it pulled people together. Where there was
a lot of division and people feeling like they shouldn't feel—
because you know what, I'm an American first. I'm black by birth, but
I'm an American. I had no choice as to what color I would be. That isn't
my choice. I just happened to be a black American. I did for my country.
Well, I almost gave my life. I've got a limp in my walk. I've got a
half-bum leg, so I did what I'm supposed to do for my country. So I'm
[laughs]
It's on there.
It is. America has its problems, but it's the best country in the world, and it still is. It's number one.
So you appreciate this FEMA trailer.
It's better than living in somebody else's house. It's not big enough, but it's pretty decent.
How long has it sat here?
This is what, this is December, October—little over a month. Going on two months. I'm the first person in the county that got a trailer. I had the commissioner, highway commissioner, Moore. Is his name Moore?
Right.
He was here. I mean, we shook hands and talked—said some
private things, too, about bringing some money here. He's over this. I
was the first person in Pender
And it is right beside your house.
Yeah. Where you can get all your—see what's being done.
How long will you be able to stay in this trailer?
They gave us eighteen months.
Do you think that's enough time?
For some it won't be. I think they'll extend it. I think they'll work with the people. I mean, North Carolina hasn't ever seen anything like this. This part of the East Coast has never seen this much devastation.
You remember Hazel and you remember other—.
Yeah. Hazel, Donna—this is like South Carolina was a couple of
years ago. We're in that same boat now. Two things good. But what we
need now are funds to help us get back. If I had any
inkling—if I was told by my people that you bought your house
from that you've got to have flood insurance, I'd have had my flood
insurance. The problem is now that with the flood insurance, the people
still aren't getting compensated enough. The insurance doesn't cover
their damage. They sell you flood insurance, but they don't sell you
contents insurance. Well, every person's house has things in it. They've
got at least $35,000 worth of contents. At least that over
twenty-five years. That's the least you could start at. You've got
cameras in there. You've got computers in there. Things like that that
you've just lost. You add up everything; you add up things that you've
lost; you figure, "Dog, $35,000." You can
get $35,000 so quick it'd make your head swim. You say,
"Good gracious". We just stopped counting and figured
kitchen set,
Fifty-one people, I think, died.
But nobody down here. And it was about two hundred families down here, and nobody lost a life. That's a miracle to me because you've got some people that wouldn't leave 'til dark; some people left at dark. I am not that brave. You need to get out of here before dark. Some people stayed until night and had to go out by moonlight. That isn't good. That isn't good. That's not good because they were staying for the last minute. Nothing's going to happen.
What have you gotten from the government? What have you heard? You got a FEMA trailer, and the Salvation Army has come. But any money from FEMA?
FEMA will give you a little check.
Can you tell us how much?
Probably close to $10,000.
And you had already talked about the $35,000 just for contents. That's not for rebuilding your house.
[laughs]
Just estimate how much it would cost just to put your house back.
Well, the carpenter that built the house—$68,000. That's his figure he gave me, and he lived down here. He probably—$68,000 to put it back like it was. He's saying possibly.
What are you going to use the $10,000?
Well, I'm hoping somebody'll give us some free sheet rock, and some insulation, and maybe some free labor. And I can take and stretch that ten and use it. I'm supposed to be able to get some more money from this—the government just passed another, what thirty-eight million—
For housing, right.
Eight hundred and thirty million. Housing and farmers. Don't forget the farmers, they're going to get theirs. But the farmers are going to get a bigger cut than the housing people. That's why we went to Raleigh. I'm not saying don't give it to the farmers. They need theirs. You've got to have farms, but don't forget us.
Well talk about—you're the first person we talked to who went to Raleigh this week on Wednesday. And the legislature was just voting on Governor Hunt's proposal where he decided he wasn't going to raise taxes but was going to take money from various programs, social services and Smart Start and others. A lot of people were up there protesting that they didn't want money taken away from their programs that they've worked on very hard every day, I'm sure. Is that why you were there?
No. We were there just to show solidarity to our representative, that we
were going to get some money turned lose. We weren't there to try to
rain on anybody else's
What helped them?
The daycare helped them, the people that worked there. We're trying to get state funding. It isn't that much, but I guess some of those people were going to lose—if they had to cut back on the kids. We could only have eighteen kids right now, trying to expand.
So you were saying to them, don't cut back on the money that's coming for daycare, through Smart Start, Head Start, some of that money.
You don't need to take that—you don't need to do that. If you're going to have to raise taxes, raise taxes. We know you're going to have to raise taxes. I mean, that's a given. We know that.
Governor Hunt's saying he's not going to raise taxes.
That's a lie. I like Hunt, good man. I voted for him. He's got to raise taxes. Anybody—he probably won't raise taxes, but the next man that gets in there is going to have to raise taxes. That's got to be. Somebody's got to raise taxes. You've got to put back in what's taken out. So somebody's got to raise taxes. He probably won't do it; he probably won't. He's got another year in there—or two years—so he won't. But somebody else will have to raise taxes.
So how did y'all organize to go to Raleigh? How did you get word to go up there at that—?
Well, I got it—it was announced in church, their church, the other Sunday. I wasn't there.
You mean the church here in the community?
Yeah. The people that belong to that Methodist church. They were talking
to the representative and got in contact with him. And they came and
they asked me. I said, "Well, I'll just get our church van from
Wallace." We put about seven or eight people on my van. Some
people drove in their cars. I think we had three cars. Some people came
from Wilmington. We drove the van. We got there. Matter of fact, when I
came in from work, I took a shower, ate two doughnuts and a chicken
drumstick, and drank some orange juice. I didn't go to bed. So I was up
like—and drove to Raleigh. But I didn't drive back. Well, I
hadn't had any sleep since the day before, just to get there. But I was
saying our community leaders, our county commissioners, they fail us. I
don't think they did their job right. That's the whole thing in this
whole situation for us. Nobody knew. They heard about Tarboro,
Princeville. Nobody heard about us. I called Channel 3 News and asked
them if they'd heard about White Stocking. I said, "We've
drowned. We're devastated." "Well, we can't get down
there." I thought they had helicopters. The news people
couldn't get here until the water got down like it is now. But I want
everybody to know about—you talk about the beach. Everybody
heard about the beach. If you build on the beach, you're looking for it
to happen. It's going to happen. We didn't look for this to happen down
here. This was like an ocean down here. So I said when I got this travel
trailer, "Well, one thing about me, I won't be going to the
beach. I'll be going to the mountains." [laughs]
I'm glad you brought up that you were trying to get in touch with the media, and they were not coming. What's the message that they missed? What can we say now as a part of history?
The message is the whole area, this whole Pender County area, was devastated, and nobody knew about it. Nobody was concerned. And our commissioners, some of them didn't even know about it because we're isolated. This is off of Fifty-three. I'm two and a half miles from Fifty-three. Unless you come down here, you don't know what's happening down here.
And it is a dead-end road so you don't just pass here.
Right. You can go around and make a circle and come right back out to Fifty-three, but it's off the beaten path. So you have to know the area to be concerned about it. Our commissioners just failed us. They really did. I think that's a slight oversight not knowing how to—nobody was prepared for this; that's what it was. Nobody was prepared for this amount of water. Wind, yes. But not this.
So what could the commissioners have done to help more?
Well, I think communicating to the higher uppers in Raleigh. Saying, "We need some help down in here now." I think our sheriff department asked for a chopper. He still—he didn't get one until one of his buddies gave him one of theirs. Everything was just so slow, moving down here. Everybody's mind was on Tarboro and Princeville and every other place. But right here, this was like a little community nobody knew about. On Forty-one they had a lot of devastation like we did. And the folk were saying, "We lost everything." But we lost everything. The same shape. If you got four feet of water in your house or six feet of water in your house, you've lost everything in your house. What wasn't in the attic, you lost it all. That's what's so bad about this thing.
How did you find out about getting FEMA help first? If the county commissioners didn't help you, how did they know you were here?
Finally, after what—FEMA got in contact—I guess the government didn't— everything happens in your county. The commissioners have to invite them. The President doesn't come down here unless the commissioners invite him in. Nobody can run your county but your commissioners. They're your fathers. And they were just slow. They invited everybody in like they were supposed to be in—your FEMA and everybody. But it was just too slow. And sometimes, FEMA moves too slow. They do well, but you've got people; you've got humans—you're dealing with human beings. And you've got some people that are Johnny on the Spot. And you've got some that are slow. That's just the way it is. That's life. And you've got to learn to deal with it. But the Red Cross— I'll say again, the Red Cross and the Salvation Army just stepped up to the plate. And they were taken advantage of by a lot of people too. People that didn't deserve anything.
How did they do that?
Well people come in—
They'd setup somewhere, in Burgaw.
Yeah. And people would come in that hadn't had that much happen to them. Like, I have seen people that I know hadn't lost, getting a hand out. Where there could be more for people in my situation—not necessarily me. I've seen folk that I know shouldn't have been there.
I've heard that story here in the county before. What makes people do that?
Greed. Greed. Some people don't have that much; and when it comes time for them to get, if they're giving it out, it's like, "Free lunch." Everybody wants a free lunch. Well, somebody's got to pay.
So some people didn't, like the elderly people in this community, didn't get anything—?
Well they got—how much can an old person get, you know what I'm saying? Everybody knew, you help the old people out. You help the elderly out all you could. But when you're going out to take care of business, some people just found out that FEMA would help them, what little bit they do. I mean—I was talking to my wife's close friend, now FEMA has been here over a month—the storm came in October, September—.
September.
FEMA been here since last September, first of October, and you've still have people who really haven't found out FEMA yet and gotten in contact with them. This old lady—.
Even today?
Well, two weeks ago, a week and a half a go—should've been taken care of. They don't know what to do. If you know what to do, then you've got to help those people out instead of taking advantage of them. I was told that this old lady, somebody had used her name, and somehow they got her number, FEMA number. And they already went through and got what little help she was going to get. They got it—maybe a little food or something. Just people taking advantage of people. That's bad.
So you have the people who are helping; you have the people coming down here from Salvation Army; you have churches; even white people you have never seen before coming in helping; then you have the people who are greedy—
Yeah. You've got the greedy people.
You have the people who are taking advantage and using other people's names. Some good and some bad.
The good outweighs the bad.
It does?
Yeah. The good outweighs the bad, but you always going to find the people that use the system. You're going to find that. That's the way human beings are. You've got—our weakness I guess, greed. Greed, that's a bad thing. I don't want—if I can just be made whole, that's all I want because I've been working since I was thirteen buying my own clothes and everything.
And you're talking about pitching in and doing as much as you can.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You are a pastor of a church. Have you preached on this topic of the flood?
Yes, a little bit.
What do you believe about natural disasters, acts of God, and so forth?
I don't think this is an act of God. We've got two forces in the world.
If you believe in God then you've got to believe in Satan, the Devil,
which is a fallen angel. So then God doesn't have to take my house and
take my possessions to make me serve him. I serve Him because I want to.
I love God because He's God and good. I'm not afraid to serve God. If I
don't want to serve Him, if I didn't want to be a Christian, I wouldn't
be one. I think we look at the bad things sometimes and say God's doing
it. I don't think so. I think you've got two forces. We've got
the—remember, there's two forces. There's good and evil. I see
it like this here. God's in the breeze. If Satan gets in it, he turns it
into a whirlwind, a tornado. You see, it's just wind and the devil gets
into it. If you look in the
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[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
In a sense, because you see so much evil, see so much hate. Even in the church folk, you find so much wrongness. So you think, "Something's wrong with this picture." You're about to lose faith in humanity. That's bad for a preacher, to lose faith in humanity, because you can't do that.
Before the hurricane you were starting to feel that?
Feel like, people don't want to do right. People were taking advantage of church folk. And different things happen. You've been reading the paper. You know what's going on. And you see a lot of wrong things done. But you find out when you deal with people that you've good people in this world, people that can't even clean their house out. Good people, just ordinary people, pharmacists, workers in the communities— I didn't see a doctor or lawyer—but I've seen common people that are helping out. I have a ladder right now from a gentleman. He left his aluminum ladder. I have it inside my house. When he comes back, it'll be here for him. I can't let anybody use it. It's got to stay in my possession. He was good enough to come and help me tear my house out. Matter of fact, told me I could leave if I wanted to, but I couldn't leave him there because I'm a doer. I couldn't leave everybody doing things for me. I've got to do something for myself. They forgot and left their ladder here. It's been here since last September, I think.
Any other stories that you've heard about people helping each other?
There's been helping all over the community. Like I said, the sad part about it is the community can hardly help itself because everybody is so devastated. Just like the other night, you've seen the Browns. They had two of these.
Oh, tell that story.
I hardly know about it, but all I know they had two—she had just bought some Christmas. She had just bought—she went to Raleigh with me the other day. We went to Raleigh together. And came back home that night, and their trailer got burned down—their FEMA trailer.
And she had her Christmas presents in there—.
Yeah. She had just bought Christmas stuff, and from what I can understand, they probably had money in their pocketbook that got burned up. So she got—Now that's rough.
That happened on Thursday night or Wednesday night?
Just got their trailer today, got it yesterday. Must've happened Thursday night—Wednesday night. Must've happened Wednesday night.
The 16th.
Yeah. Must've happened about the 16th.
One trailer caught fire, and the other one beside it was burned, but no one was hurt. What little bit they had saved out of their house must've been in there.
It was. It was. They'd just bought some stuff. She rode with her brother
I think to Raleigh. She just had unloaded some gifts, I think, from what
she had just bought and she went right back. They had to call the
Salvation Army, I think, and somebody to help them again. And I know she
doesn't like that because I know they're working people and things
happen. And she's so—I saw her face—and she's so
devastated. You could see she'd been crying and weeping. It's just sad.
Flood, then the fire. And all you've got is gone twice. Now that's
devastating. But we'll come back. It's a good little
What is God doing now? I mean, how do you see it? What does God take this disaster and make out of it?
I think He's pulling people together. Okay, you're in a place you've never been before. And I think He's calling people to meet other folk—allowed to just meet. By talking to—it helps. It's therapy for me to talk about it sometimes. Some people are hush-mouthed. I've got an eighteen year-old ( ). It's been devastating to him. He doesn't say much. He was a good kid too. I thank God, I've got an eighteen year-old boy, and I know where he is all the time. That's good. He doesn't cause any trouble. But this has been devastating to a kid. You can understand that.
I don't know if everybody does, so explain how it is devastating to a kid.
Because this is all they've ever seen, daddy was able to do for them.
They had somewhere pretty decent to live. Then all of a sudden you don't
have anything. You've got to depend on somebody else for shelter, almost
for food. You know, daddy's been doing this. But daddy can hardly do it
now. You can see his frame. He tries to be— he's growing into
manhood, and he's trying to learn from his dad, but he sees the weakness
in his dad. He sees his daddy at his weakest point also. In a sense,
that's probably good because men aren't supposed to cry. Men are
supposed to be strong. But sometimes men need to let our feelings be
shown. I'm not invincible. I'm human and I have feelings. I hurt. A lot
of men won't admit that they hurt. Man, I hurt. And we all
There goes a contractor?
Well, he does cement fencing. He was down here too. He lives next to the
dump, the white trailer. He lost his house. He was renting. So he got
him a mobile home. He got a nice one from what I can understand. I would
like to have a mobile
What is your plan? How are you going to start? Today, what are you going to do?
Today, if you hadn't come by here, I was going to take my saw. But I'm going to do something else. I'm going to take that—some more of that wood out a room at a time. If I can do it that way, I'll do it one room at the time and get it back like I want to. But if the government had told us that money they're talking about—.
The state.
Yeah. The state. If they'll give us a statute amount of money for each family then we can get back. And even though the contractor says he can do it for one thing, with your friends you can do it cheaper. It won't cost me sixty-eight to get back in; I might get back in for thirty-five. We'll do it. If I can find out where this free material is, that's what's going to help us.
Do you think there'll be these people that were taking free food in there trying to get free materials?
It isn't going to be that easy though because this time when the money come by—how the county commissioners are supposed to operate it, we'll have administrative staff there; they're supposed to be different people from all walks of life, like in the community that know the community. And you can say, "Hey that person shouldn't have that because he's not one of the flood survivors. He shouldn't have that.'
That's a good plan. Have they already talked about doing that or is that your idea?
No. That's supposed to be in place really. It's hard when you've got that many people, it's hard to police everybody. So what you do now, you put them in a number; you do what you have to do. That's what FEMA and everybody, you do what you have to do. I think some of them will remember. FEMA is doing their job, but the Red Cross got taken advantage of, and the Salvation Army they got taken advantage of. I know that for a fact. The people shouldn't have been there, but they're there. That's wrong.
Did you see them there?
I've seen some folks that shouldn't have been there.
Did people just remain quiet or do you tell them something when you see them—?
One lady said she told them, "You'll get it back." And you're kind of wondering what are you doing here. You're trying to figure out, first of all, you're trying to say, "Are you here for somebody else?" Yeah. I can see that. Helping an old person or something. But you find out that person's there for themselves because they're greedy because they won't go to work. You just want to beat somebody. That's what wrong. And you find out—this is a bad part of how the system worked, that's the bad part of our country, our government. They'll take care of somebody, got four or five illegitimate kids. But you've worked hard all your life. You've paid in the system all your life. And it comes time to help you, you've got to go through a whole lot of red tape. That's wrong. Something's wrong with that picture.
What kind of red tape do you have to go through?
Well, they tell you the county has this much money for you out of this kind of fund. And you go out and they say, "You make too much money." "But I lost everything." And if you make—listen to this here—if you make, family of three gross $100,00 a year. How much of that money do you really bring home? You don't bring home $100,000 a year. You might bring home $65,000. You might bring home that much. So if I made that much money, it'd take my whole salary for a year and more—it'd take two years of my salary to get back like you were. So you're still not ahead of the game. You're behind the eight ball any way you look at it. You're still catching up. That's why it's going to be so hard for some of us, catching up, trying to catch up.
You have expenses now. You have bills to pay.
Still have a house note, and you can't live in your house. Still have a house note. That's why most folks are looking at—FEMA says, "Well, we're giving you $70,000." "Whoopee, but I still got a house note to pay off.'
That'd mean you have two.
Two house notes. That isn't good. Who needs to pay that? That isn't good. That's the reason I'm saying if the water were turned loose on us, the state ought to fix us back if that was done that way. I don't know. I can't prove it. I've heard it, but I can't prove it. And nobody else—isn't anyone else going to ( ). It was put on the news a couple of times, and it was shut off. I'm about through talking. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We wish you well. And our prayers are with you.
[END OF INTERVIEW]