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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
K-0487, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Robert Yost discusses coaching chess and teaching English at West Charlotte High School in Charlotte, N.C. Yost's attention remains on the successes of the school's chess team for much of the interview, but he does share his thoughts on the changing racial character of West Charlotte and the school's image and performance problems. Yost does not pay much attention to race, he says, but has modified his teaching methods to make certain works of literature more appealing to African American students.
Robert Yost discusses coaching chess and teaching English at West Charlotte High School in Charlotte, N.C.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is Pamela Grundy and I am here at Charlotte High School at Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm interviewing Bob Yost, teacher and chess coach at the school, and it is the twenty second of November, the year 2000. I guess I just want to start, if I could, with a little bit of your background and find out where you grew up, how you became a teacher, and all of that.
Well, I grew up in the Washington, DC area. Maryland suburbs, right on the DC line. A little place called Colmar Manor, which is next to Cottage City, which is next to Brentwood, which is next to Hyattsville. Somebody might have heard of Hyattsville, but I don't think they've ever heard of Colmar Manor. But I was right there on Eastern Avenue. And I was born in 1952, grew up in that area. I went to the University of Maryland, where I played chess on the chess team as well as played for Blandensburg High School. I think we were second in the state back there in 1970. Studied speech and drama, with a minor in English education at the University of Maryland. Got my masters of education there as well. Went to Capital Seminary, got a bachelor of theology. So I was trained to be a minister. I worked as a Presbyterian minister in the Washington area and in Michigan and then here. I was a pastor here.
You came to, that's what you originally came to Charlotte to do.
Yes, I came here to be a pastor of what is now (Coolwood?) Presbyterian
Church. Well at that point, through a divorce, wound up getting out of
the ministry. I still
Really? I bet. What led you to do that?
Vietnam War.
Oh, OK. All right.
Yes, I went up for a few years back when I wasn't feeling too good about
my country. And a lot of people weren't either. So I moved to Canada.
And I thought it would be interesting to see how the Eskimos lived, and
so I went up to central Canada and learned how to hunt and trap and how
to build igloos and how to speak [unclear]
I bet. I bet. That sounds like a real, [unclear]
I came back in, let's see, it was '75. And then I went back up again in '89. And walked up to the Arctic Ocean to go across the tundra. About four hundred mile backpacking trip across the tundra. And then I came back and got fat. Out of shape.
So was this before your seminary studies and all that you, I'm trying to sort of fit where in the chronology of your life.
I left Canada before my seminary studies.
But after college.
Yes. I actually went up before my senior year. But anyway, I have a
pretty eclectic background. I've done a lot of different things. I've
[unclear]
Oh, really? OK.
If you've ever seen the National Geographic special, Polar Bear Alert?
No, I haven't.
This is the most unique town in the world. It's a teeny little settlement, seaport. And in the fall, the place is actually overrun with polar bears. They come into town, I mean, they're everywhere. It's just incredible.
That's really interesting.
It is.
I love it. I love it. So how then did you come to become a high school teacher?
Well, I had left my church. And I was teaching at East Coast Bible
College, which is a Church of God institution. And so they would not let
me teach anything in my area. They would not let me teach Greek or
biblical studies or anything like that. Which is really what I wanted to
do because I think they consider Presbyterians heretical. So I was
teaching testing and measurements, educational testing and measurements,
sociology, and a speech class. And I was really just, you know, I was
looking for something to pay the
You were saying that you had put in an application to Charlotte-Mecklenburg school system.
Yes. I was hired for half time. And I taught at Eastway Middle School.
Junior high school, at the time. And they asked me to come back and I
said no because I'd accepted this job. In fact, we'd even put down a
down payment on a house about three hundred yards from Biscayne Bay.
Pool and everything. A really nice place. It was probably leveled during
that big storm they had a few years back. But we were ready to go. And
at that point, my marriage just, it was on pretty shaky ground, and it
just kind of went kaput. So I wound up staying in Charlotte. And right
after I turned down the job I was called by West Charlotte High School
to come for an interview. And so they interviewed me and, I guess, three
other people, and decided to keep me for whatever reason. But when Louis
Lane, who was principal at the time, hired me in 1988, I was pretty
adamant about wanting to start a chess program at West Charlotte because
they did not have one at the time. I don't know if they had one before,
but I know they didn't have one at the time. And I thought it would be
kind of fun to do. Since I played, and I just
Had you maintained a very strong interest in chess all these years while you were doing these things?
Well, I didn't play seriously, competitively, after college. I would play, but not real seriously. You know, I would just kind of dabble with it. Every once in a while I would get inspired and maybe do a little study, but I wasn't playing tournaments or anything. Just kind of goofing around.
How had you gotten interested in chess? What was your—?
I was four years old.
Really.
I lived next door to my cousin, who was six years old. And he taught me.
He learned somehow, he learned the moves, and he taught me the moves.
And he used to really beat me pretty badly back then. But, you know, at
least I learned the moves and was interested in it. And there was
another kid in the neighborhood a few years later. He was interested in
playing chess. So we played chess together in the neighborhood. We
weren't very good. Looking back, in retrospect. But we weren't too bad,
either. In junior high school, at Blandensburg Junior High School, my
friend and I, we were on the team at Blandensburg, and we had a pretty
good team. So I pretty much sustained it through then, through that
period. And then in high school, we wound up having a very good team. We
wound up finishing in 1970 second in the state. At Maryland. And I think
I had the best, I had the
What was the appeal of chess for you? Why did you—?
Well, I think one thing I like about chess, I like individual sports. I was a cross country runner, and a miler, at school. And I played competitive table tennis. And chess. And I think what I like about chess is that like any other individual sport, although cross country is a team sport as well, but it's also an individual sport, you can't blame someone else for your mistakes. You, when you play chess, you are the captain of your own ship. And if you screw up, if you go down, it's your fault. And I think I liked that. The fact that you are responsible for yourself. And I think in our society today we put responsibility off on other people so much. And we allow children to shift responsibility away from themselves. And I don't think we do them any good when we do that.
So you think that chess is helpful to students in that regard.
Absolutely. Number one, it teaches them logical thinking skills. It
teaches them analyses. It teaches them strategy. It teaches them
planning, which a lot of them need to know. It teaches them
consequences. Because when you're playing chess, if you hang a piece,
which means that you lose it, you lose that piece. You can't have your
mother come up and scream at the principal and have your mother make
things all right. It doesn't happen that way. So they learn how there
are consequences in life. Their actions have consequences. And I really
believe that a lot of kids don't realize that. They've had their parents
or someone else fix stuff for so long that they think that
So tell me how you came up with this interest in setting up a chess team. How did you go about doing that?
Well, it was really kind of interesting because I didn't even have a
room back then. And I'm not sure where I got the set, I think I went out
and got some sets. I may have gotten a little bit of money from the
school, I'm not even sure. I've put out so many, I've probably put out
hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years out of my own pocket for
this program. But I remember I bought about a half a dozen sets. And we
made the announcement. I found a science teacher, David (Shope?), who is
still here, by the way, and he let us come into his room one day a week.
It was on Tuesday afternoons. And we had about four or five kids that
wanted to play chess, that wanted to learn how to play competitive
chess. None of them had ever played any competitive chess. I'm trying to
think back. It was Wade Duster, who became my best player. A fellow by
the name of George Battle the third, I think. His father, George Battle,
is a [unclear] [unclear] [unclear] [unclear]
Anyway, you were saying
Yes. If Wade had, if they had five more minutes left in the game, Wade
would have certainly probably lost that game. But as it turned out,
Carlos was in such miserable time trouble that he agreed to a draw. I
mean, it was just an amazing game. To me, that would have been the
equivalent of back when Chaminade beat Virginia in the, I think it was
the Rainbow Classic. Years ago. Mountain Classic. Whatever it was.
Chaminade was a division two school, and they beat Virginia, which had
Ralph Sampson, who was player of the year. So, although he didn't win,
it was a draw, it was a tremendous kind of an upset. And it put West
Charlotte on the map at that point. Because
Well, these fellows must have been fairly good players to start out with. Were they? Or was it the work that you were able to do? Or a combination?
I think it was really, the main factor, I think, was the work that they put in. We just started, we started playing with one another. And I would play with them and work with them on their skills. And they started playing one another. And that's really the way to improve, is to play a lot. Especially to play people who are stronger than you are. And so they came in, they didn't really have any kind of expertise when they came in. They just had a desire to learn. And that's what they did. And we've had a lot of kids come through this program, that they come in, they don't really have any particular skills. But then they work, they come in and work hard, and we give them the opportunity to play every day now. They come in at lunch time every day and play. And I think this daily contact really helps them.
Well I know, especially in tournaments, also, there's an element of psychological strength. Is that right? In order to be able to—?
Well, I think there is a psychological sense. There's a psychological
intimidation. I know that Fisher would certainly intimidate his
opponents. And I think it was Fisher who said, "I like to
see them squirm." And Kasparov, who just
Is this something that you would work on at all with the kids? Or is this just something that one develops?
Well I do talk with, I do deal with psychological tactics. I do deal with those.
What are they? I mean, if you [unclear]
Well, one thing I would say is that you appear positive. You never, if
you move, don't ever, ever, ever say, "Oh,
shoot!" Or "oops," you know. You
don't ever want to let on that you have screwed up. You always want to
be positive. If you make a move and it's the worst turkey of a move in
the history of mankind, you want to act like you've got it working, I've
got them where I want them now. So you always want to be positive, you
always want to be very assertive. But then again, on the other hand, we
don't want to go in, we don't want to be arrogant. And I've had to kind
of rein in some of the kids. I don't want them, number one, I don't want
them trash talking. I want them always to handle themselves with
dignity, class. You know, we're not on the basketball court. We're not
going to be talking trash to people. And I've
That's interesting. You don't think about trash talking being something that would happen with chess. But I guess—
Well, we have a nickname here for the chess we play. We call it "ghetto chess." [laughter]
Oh, you do.
Which is a little bit different from the polite chess that you would see in tournaments. Sometimes when they play, it gets pretty raunchy.
Oh really. So, and that's all right when they're playing each other?
I don't encourage it. In fact, I try to always tell them to be humble. If you have any trouble with humility when you're playing with each other, come and play me. And we'll put you in your place right away. Because they can't beat me.
Right, right.
I always want them to, I think that we have such a reputation with Charlotte that we really have to work on our reputation. So I don't allow anything like that.
When you say reputation, what—?
Well, let me tell you something. You know, the news. Anytime there's a
shooting or something, usually it's, they say West Charlotte. They're
not talking about West Charlotte High School often, although we've had
our problems. I mean, I've had five students over my thirteen years of
teaching that have been murdered. Shriek Adams is the last one. I had
him for two years. I have one kid who is in jail for murder. I've had
Yes. Right.
So we've got that kind of image to overcome.
How do the kids react when you tell them that? I mean, when you talk to them. What's their perspective on this?
They humor me.
Do you think they're less concerned with that, really, than you are?
I think they are. I'm very concerned about it. But I have decided that we're going to have a classy program with or without them. And if they can't go along with the rules, they won't play. But yes, I want to have a classy program. I don't want to have to overcome all kinds of barriers.
That's really interesting. I mean, you feel that that's been sort of, people have thought about, I mean that's been a sort of ongoing issue for people in a lot of areas of West Charlotte because of that.
There is a perception of West Charlotte. And with the change in demographics that we have, the change in school population, it's becoming more and more to the forefront. So I don't want to give anybody any kind of ammunition to put us down. We've got enough problems. And we've been through, what, five or six principals since '94. We don't need it.
You say, I'm interested. You talk about the media here. Is this a
statewide reputation? I mean statewide [unclear]
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So that really is something that [unclear]
Yes. Tom Brokaw wanted to do a story on chess a few years back. And the
president of the North Carolina Chess Association told him that you need
to go to West Charlotte, because there's a guy there that's the Dean
Smith of high school chess coaches. And it was [unclear] [unclear] [unclear]
I would certainly think so.
So we have achieved that. And every year I have goals that I write down. And one goal is to win a state championship. We've done it six times. Another goal is to finish top twenty-five nationally. And I think we've done it three or four times. Another is to win the Southern Scholastic chess championship, which is the Southern championship. We've done that eight times. Another one is to lose weight. And I've had less success with that, but I'm working on it. And do more exercise and you know, that kind of stuff.
Yes. Chess doesn't probably help you lose weight. That's not really that
kind of a, a connected. Well, I'm interested, you talk about this being,
I mean, unique or
Yes.
And to do well at chess is not the norm.
In fact, I was told when I first started, "Well, why are you doing that? You know that the population we have is not going to excel at chess."
Really, so you—did you, but as you came into West Charlotte, I mean, did you have the sense that this was the kind of school you were coming to? And that you wanted to do particular things related to that? Is that something—?
No. I just happened to be going to the school that offered me a job.
They offered me an interview. They offered me a job. I had decided not
to turn, to turn down the Florida job and try to get our money back from
the house. Because number one, my marriage was going down. Our house
hadn't sold. So things were just starting to kind of crumble. So I just
took a job where I was offered a job. I had no real idea of the history
of the school. And I had no mandate from God to, you know, start a
national program for—I just wanted to start a chess program. I
thought that I would be good at it. I thought that I had something that
I could share with those kids. And I felt that chess is a good, you
know, it's better than going out there and killing people. Chess, so I
thought it was a very positive thing to do. But I had no mandate. I
mean, I really, coming into it, if I'd have known what we were going to
accomplish, it would have probably amazed me. I just wanted to start a
program. You know, have a little club. That's really all I wanted to do.
Have a little club, and meet together once a week, and play chess like
we did in high
It seems like a lot of those things have happened with West Charlotte.
That's kind of also what made me think about a pattern. I mean, when I
talk to people like, I was talking to Charles [unclear]
Well, I think one thing that you need to have. You need to have
somebody, okay, number one, you need to have somebody who's willing to
sponsor them and help them. And it helped that I was there and I'm a
player. I mean, there's nothing magical about me. I'd never coached
chess before in my life. I just was a good, committed player. Not a
great one, but a good one. A solid one. So you need to have somebody who
is concerned. And you need to have somebody who is going to open up the
room, be a part of their lives. I think that's important. But more
important than that, because I'm replaceable. You could put somebody in
here and would probably do just as well as I would. If the person put in
the time and the effort and the love. But I think what has been
important over the years is the kind of kid that we get. You have kids
that come in and they've just been really good kids. Not to say that
they've all been angels. But I had one kid come back when he got out of
prison, he said, "I just remembered all the things you
taught me about chess." He was on the team, but he was in
the club. So we've had all kinds of kids come through this program. And
a lot
You were talking about the kind of kid.
Oh, yes. The kind of kid. Yes, the kind of kid. I think it really helps
that I've had some really quality kids come into the program. You know,
kids like George (Mantle?). Kids like [unclear]
Well, I was going to ask about that. I mean, obviously, and I think more so when you started than now, West Charlotte drew from a whole lot of different parts of the city, and a whole lot of kids from different economic levels. And did your top players tend to come from one or two of those neighborhoods, or levels, or did you have a whole range of—?
Well, I think it was a whole range of them. You know, we've had kids from, I'm just thinking, Goldwyn Parker went to, he graduated a couple, three years ago. He lives in Pawtucket. Black kid, smart kid. Went to Piedmont. And then his best friend was Trey Wallace. His father is a doctor. And he lives over by Cotswald. You know, in a really, really nice house. More than I could afford. We've had kids just really from all over. Just all over the place, we've had them. So I don't think that any one geographical locality in Charlotte would dominate my team structure.
Or the kids from a better economic background?
I would say that probably the kids from the better families, the better
economic backgrounds, have made the better chess players. But my chess
program's not just a chess team. It's the kids that come in here every
day and play chess with me. And come in here and play every day. They're
as much part of the program as the kids that I
What do you think those kids who just come and play every day? What do they get out of being in the chess club?
Well, I think they are achieving personal goals. They're learning
discipline. They're learning analysis. Logical thinking skills. They're
learning the life lessons that I teach. And they get the satisfaction of
improving on a day to day basis. Which is very important. And I think
chess is a highly individual thing. It's kind of like running. You know,
you're basically, of course, you're in a race with other people. But
you're also racing against yourself. Because you have times that you
want to break. I've got a son who runs cross country. He's the captain
of the cross country team at West Mecklenburg. And he's two or three
minutes better than everybody else on his team. And he's two or three
minutes behind (Steven Hoss?), you know, from North Mec, who won the
state. And he came close to making all conference, but he didn't quite
make it this year. He's got another year. But he's basically, he's not
running against kids on his team. Because they're on a team, and he's
going to beat them. Even if he's in a wheelchair, he's probably going to
beat the kids on his team. But he's running against himself. He's
running against his past times. And I think chess is a lot like that.
Although you don't have times. But you have people that you play. And
you're, you're proving on a daily basis. And so, in a sense, the
satisfaction comes in the improvement. And testing
How do you see this change? I mean, can you describe sort of ways that you see chess changing these kids? In a sort of, do the things you see, or the way they talk, or other, other aspects of—?
Well, I think it's kind of neat to see them change over the years. I'll
just give you an example. You know, to see the improvement. I had a
fellow come in. He's with my son now at NC State, studying engineering.
He's a deaf kid. Name is Nick Long. He's one of the finest young men
I've ever met. Last year he made Eagle Scout. Like my son. But he's
deaf. He's handicapped. And he would come in, when he was in ninth
grade, I think it was ninth grade, and play me. I wasn't even in this
room anymore. I was in the E building. But he would come in and play.
And he was terrible. He was really bad. But he stuck with it. He started
to improve that year. And then every year he was improving more and
more. And finally last year, the last two years, he was one of the
finest players in the state. Anyway, Nick Long was, just turned out to
be one of the finest chess players in the state. He worked so hard. He
was just totally dedicated. And was just such a great, great kid. Now he
was a great kid when he came to me. I didn't make him a great kid. But I
think I helped maybe a little bit to be a better chess player. And he
was just a wonderful kid. He's now at NC State studying engineering. And
he's in the honors program at NC State. He's a freshman up there with my
son Micah. I've seen other kids, well, for [unclear]
And it sounds like from many different kinds of needs
Absolutely.
I mean, if you talk about kids with needs, and not just your stereotypical, inner city needs, but a variety—.
A variety. Yes, indeed. Back when I was playing chess, the stereotype chess player, the stereotypical chess player, was a little skinny white kid with a big head and big horn rimmed glasses. I don't know that I've ever seen one here. It's not a dirty thing here. In fact, you're really considered pretty cool to play chess.
Is it?
Absolutely. We're not considered nerdy.
Does that affect it at all? I think about, you think about an inner city school, you think about a largely black school. It seems like there's been, there was a movie a little while ago, but some amount of publicity put on the folks in New York City that played the fast chess in the parks.
Speed chess, yes. In Washington Square.
And that kind of thing. Do those images have any effect on how people
think about chess [unclear]
I don't know, but I think everyone's fairly familiar with Searching for
Bobby Fisher. And the story of Josh Waitkin and Bruce [unclear]
Really? Wow.
Yes. He was played by Ben Kingsley. But he comes to the national championships. And usually has some pupils that he's working with. I'm not in that league. Nowhere near. But I think that there is that kind of perception. Chess is, you know, they're familiar with that kind of thing. Although that's not the kind of chess we play. Although we do play speed chess, but I try to discourage them from playing speed chess. It kind of takes away from their game when they have to sit down and play a serious game.
It was just interesting, I was thinking about chess and those were the sort of images that were coming to mind.
Yes. Well I would say, too, that New York is the epicenter of chess here
in the United States. You have the better players are in New York. And
the better clubs, the better teams. You've got some teams up there that
are, you know, contenders on a daily basis. A yearly basis. You've got
schools like [unclear]
Right. Right.
They have, I think they have grand masters on the staff.
Wow.
You know, they pay them. And they have actually courses in chess. We have to meet at lunchtime. We have to squeeze it in. And they're left with little old me to get them, bumble through this. But they actually have as part of the curriculum. So it's really hard for a team like ours to compete with teams like that.
Right. Yes.
Until they, and this is one of my peeves, pet peeves here, is that I want to write Dr. Smith a letter and ask him to hire a full time chess person for the system. To promote chess. Right now, chess is only in about a third of the schools.
Really?
Yes. We're talking about elementary, middle, high schools. Not every school has a program or a club. And fewer still are really competitive. So I'm going to write him a letter. This has been on my back burner for two years. Maybe I'll do it today. No, I don't think I will. But to write him a letter and ask him to have somebody who just promotes chess in schools.
Well it sounds like that could be a very valuable [unclear]
Yes, you better make it a little clearer than that.
In terms of, do you see any, I guess, both racial or interracial
components to
I don't know that I see a racial component here. A few years back, this is going back a few years. I actually called chess club international club, because we had a token white person on the team. We called him our token white. We had several black.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Okay, you said two Hispanic [unclear]
Two Hispanics. I'll tell you the truth. We were such a melting pot, we
were really a microcosm of society as a whole. We were just
predominantly minority. However, and then other years, let's see, my
first team, we had two Caucasians, one African American, one Indian, on
the team. I really don't know that, I mean, that that has really been a
factor. I mean, we have just been a composite of what the school is.
We've always been integrated. But the exact composition, I guess I just
don't really look at it that much. I'm so used to, you know, my wife is
black, and I don't even think of her, I mean, I just don't think in
those terms, whether you're black or white. Because I just look at them
as human beings. So that has not really been a factor. I think that's
what I really would like to say. That we don't even look as race as a
factor. Somebody brought this up in one of the classes the other day.
"Mr. Yost, there are only two whites in this
room." We were talking about being minority.
"There are only two whites in
Well I'm interested in, I mean, you've been teaching chess here, and doing the chess club, and of course you've also been a regular instructor. And you've been here a long time. You've seen a lot of changes at West Charlotte. And I was wondering if, if, you might talk a little bit about what you see as the more significant changes that you've seen in the school.
Okay. Well, we've had quite a turnover in principals. I was hired by
Louis Lane. And then the next year, he left. And I think he went to, I
can't remember where he went. [unclear]
How have these changes affected your day to day life as a teacher? If they have? If you want to talk about it. You certainly don't have to.
Well, they do affect your day to day job. I'm basically okay with it. As long as they let me do my thing. [interruption]
We were talking about sort of daily life.
As long as people let me do my thing and don't bother me too much, I'm a
little unusual as a teacher, I think. As long as they just let me do my
thing, I'm okay. I haven't had a lot of, any kind of interference from
outside. I think they recognize me as an excellent teacher and let me do
my thing. But I know that some teachers have gotten flack from different
administrators. You've had teachers that have been kind of on their hit
list or something. And you're under their microscope. I would not do
well under that. Number one, I'm a jeans and T-shirts kind of guy. And
with the new principal, I've had to kind of—I wear denims,
which is kind of pushing it a little bit, and running shoes. And I have
to wear a tie every day. So I'm a big guy. It's kind of hard to find
shirts that will actually close. So I've got three, I think LL Bean
plaid shirts that I can close. And I've got some, a few ties that I can
wear. So I just sort of recycle those things. But I really don't like
that kind of stuff. As long as they let me do what I do well, and that's
teach, I'm fine. As long as they support the chess program. And I think
that's really important. Right now, the [unclear] [unclear] [unclear] [unclear]
Well you've had these changes in principals. There's also been a change in student body. I mean, getting a high percent of African Americans. And I gather also a high percentage of low income kids.
Yes. And socio-economics are definitely linked to the scores which have—lower socio-economics, lower family involvement. Lot of kids are not with their parents. It's a sad, it's very sad. A lot of kids with children, which perpetuates the cycle. Children giving birth to children, giving birth to children. You have to break the cycle.
It's hard to do just at school.
You can't do it at school.
Well how do those two, I mean, those are two, sometimes those two, people tend to put those two together. The blacker and the more low income. I'd be interested in how those two things have affected the classroom separately. If, does that, am I making, asking, I feel like I'm not asking my questions very well today.
No, they're fine.
But the difference between teaching, for you, a more integrated class or a more predominantly, if not all, African American class. If there is a difference. And then the difference between teaching the more well off students and the more disadvantaged students.
Well, I would put it this way. I think that behavior goes across all
spectrums. And you can have some kids that are AP that poorly behave.
But usually they're not. But you can have some real smart kids that are
jerks in AP classes, too. But sometimes I would rather have kids that
are lower level because at least they're not know-it-alls. Sometimes
kids in AP classes, or [unclear]
Has the content of what you taught changed at all? I mean, again, my question thinking, as—
As a teacher?
As a teacher.
Oh, yes.
The sort of things that you teach.
Well, I teach twelfth grade. So we've always done British literature.
But for the last four years or so, four or five years, I've been
teaching a class which the college board has called "pace
setter." So the curriculum is a little bit different. I
What have you learned over the years?
I've learned to, that you have to take kids where they are, not where you are. And that you try to move them a little bit more. But I've had to learn to tailor my expectations. And I've learned that kids are better teachers than I am. And so a lot of times we do a lot of peer stuff, because they're actually much better than I am. And if you have a peer teaching something that he's learned, something that I learned, back when Hector was a pup, it's a little bit easier for somebody else to teach it. So we do a lot of that. I've even learned to let the kids teach the class totally sometimes. When we do Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neal Hurston, in pace setter, I do a little bit of brainstorming at the beginning of the unit, and then the kids teach the rest of the unit. They do cooperative learning groups. They have questions that they need to answer, then they teach the class. I don't teach it. I tell them I'm lazy. [interruption] Okay.
Well let's, you were talking about, we were talking about teaching, the kids teaching the class, the different things that you had learned as a teacher.
Right. And I've found that they've done a really good job when they
teach.
I guess one of the questions in terms of content, too, that I had, in terms of teaching and again regarding having a higher percentage of black students, is whether, for example, that pushed you or encouraged you to teach more black authors, more Zora Neal Hurstons, that kind of thing, or whether that's not something that doesn't—.
No, that's not even a factor. Because that's something I have to teach.
That's a unit with the pacesetter. So when I teach that, it's not even
British literature. And you know, one of the sad thing about British
literature is that there are not really any African American authors.
For example, you don't have a black Anglo-Saxon English literature.
There is no black medieval period British literature. Unfortunately,
there's no black Shakespeare. We have to deal with the white one when
we're doing the English Renaissance. So there's, until you come to some
of the modern ones, and we never get to the modern writers. But you know
there's really not much from the African American perspective. So I try
to do some different things with it. For example, we just did Beowulf
with my regular classes. And when we finish Beowulf they have to do a
twenty-line rap or
Well do it.
Okay. This is Beowulf in the 'Hood by Robert Yost: Well his name was
Beowulf, and it ain't no jive, that he was the baddest cat alive. He
fought with Grendel, and ain't it true, when he was finished, Grendel
was dragon stew. He ripped his arm off, clawed all, then he fought his
Ma, but not his Pa. Then Beowulf got older and don't you see, he wore
Depends for when he had to pee. He fought the dragon from a rocket ship.
That Beowulf was so old, he had no hair. But all ends well when you're
brave and true, that's all there is, this poem is through. [unclear]
Right. Right.
They have a lot of fun with that stuff.
It sounds like you learn a lot from the kids, too. Culturally and stuff.
Well, I wouldn't have thought of this stuff thirteen years ago. I've learned a lot as far as how to do this. I get better every year. I think probably by the time I retire, I may have some idea how to teach. Because I'm getting a little better at it each year.
Well what would you say, what are the things that you have learned from
students here at West Charlotte over the years?
What have I learned from the students? Patience is one. Because you have to be very patient. You plant a tree, it takes a long time for it to come up. And when you work with a child, it's kind of like you're working with a little thing. And you need to be patient. I've also learned that I've had an impact on a lot of lives. But I've also had a lot of kids that I just can't reach. No matter how smart I am, how good a teacher I am, how witty I am, there are some kids that I'm just incapable of reaching. So I've learned that I'm not God's gift to everybody. I think that's a lesson that everybody needs to learn. I mean, if I can be God's gift to one or two, then I've been a blessing. Then I've done a pretty good job. But you're not going to come in as a teacher and change the world. You can change a little part of it, but you're not going to change the world. But I do the best I can.
Well, you said you came to West Charlotte and you had no mission from
God when you came to West Charlotte. You just had gotten a job and here
you'd come to this inner city school and started your chess program. Now
looking back over your time, what does it mean to you that you did this?
At this school? At West Charlotte, and [unclear]
Repeat that. Repeat that.
I said, when you first came here, you said you came—
[unclear]
You just came because it was a job. And you spent a lot of time here,
and you've done a lot of things here that, at an inner city school, a
school that's
Well, I wouldn't exactly say that when I came here it was just a job. It
wasn't. It was a job, I mean, it was the place that hired me. But I have
found out that I really love it here. And I love what I do. I hate
dealing with discipline issues. But I really do love teaching and I'm
pretty good at it. You know, you find something that you're pretty good
at, that you enjoy, where you can mold lives. I've found that even
though I'm not in the public ministry that I can have a ministry here.
And that's been very important to me because I'm dealing with young
people every day. And I had a kid a few years ago that graduated, his
parents invited me to lunch after graduation. But he told me that he was
inspired by my example, and that he wanted to go to college and become
an English teacher. And I had lunch with them. Never saw him again in my
life. A lot of kids come back and see me. I never saw him again. He told
me that he had inspired me and his parents. Just thanked me so
profusely. And I got a call last year from a girl that I taught my first
year here. [unclear] [unclear] [unclear]
Yes. I can see that. I understand. Well you mentioned, I mean, to talk about, to kind of carry on in this vein. Caught my ear a ways back. You talked about deport of the chess team and having people care, and then you mentioned love. You talked about there had to be love. And I was hoping you might be able to tell what you meant by that
Well, you've got to love these kids. You're going to be with them a lot. And they come in every day. I love the kids. I really do. I tell them that. They look at me as being kind of gruff. But really, I'm just a big teddy bear. I think that a lot of these kids need to know that they're loved. And if they don't get it here, they might not get it anywhere else. And so I think that's really important. I'm not really big in the self esteem movement of teaching. I don't think my job is to build up their self esteem. But I do think that kids need to know that they're loved. And I try to do that. Probably not as well as I can, but I try.
Do you demonstrate it in ways rather than telling them? Do you think the things that you do demonstrate that?
Well, I give a lot of my time being chess coach. I don't get paid for
this. I give up a lot of my time. I've also probably given a lot of my
money to the program. Kids that cannot afford to play. I'll just give
you an example. These Bosnians, we decided to [unclear] [unclear]
This [unclear] [unclear]
Well I would estimate that I've probably put four or five thousand dollars into the program. That I've never gotten back. And I'm probably like everybody else. I'm in debt. But some kids would not have an opportunity to play on a competitive level and if they didn't have somebody to take care of them.
You said one more, I'm almost done, I know you kind of want to, I want
you to be able to get done and get home to your family so you can do
this with them. But I just have a couple of
other—[Interruption] You said when you first came you didn't
know much about the history of West Charlotte. I'm interested in what
you learned over the years about the history of the school, and what
effect, if any, that had on you and
Well I didn't realize that West Charlot