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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
K-0513, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Richard Bowman grew up in Asheville, North Carolina, attended Tuskegee College, served in the Army in Germany, and lived in Los Angeles, California, for forty years before returning to Asheville. He discusses important events in his life, including his experience in segregated schools and his efforts to improve Asheville schools following his retirement. He also recalls his early stance against segregated libraries and buses in Asheville. He faced racism in the Army and at the Department of Motor Vehicles in Los Angeles. Bowman explains his views on race relations in California by comparing the riots in 1965 with the riots in 1992. Bowman is glad for improvements like school integration in Asheville, but he volunteers his efforts in order to ensure that integration serves black students well.
Richard Bowman reflects on growing up in segregated Asheville, North Carolina, and facing racism during his employment with the Army and the Los Angeles Department of Motor Vehicles. He also discusses his work to improve the current Asheville school district and rebuild his old high school. He lived in Los Angeles for four decades and experienced two major riots.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
July 8, 1998. This is Kelly Elaine Navies in Asheville, NC in the home of Mr. Richard Bowman. We are about to begin our first interview on his experience as an alumnus of Stephens-Lee. And uh, let's just begin. Could you identify yourself?
I'm Richard Bowman.
Where were you born Mr. Bowman?
I was born in Asheville in 1934.
On what day?
March 20, 1934.
What part of Asheville were you born in?
In the area called South Side. It's been redeveloped now, you probably wouldn't recognize it. In fact, I was oh, maybe about ten blocks from the train station, the depot, On Palmer Street.
Okay, on Palmer Street. Thank You.
Lila Bowman, Wright was her maiden name and my father was Nathaniel Bowman.
Can you tell me a little bit about them? What were their occupations?
My father was a janitor—all of his life—most of his
life. He worked for [unclear]
How many siblings did you have?
There were seven.
And where were you in that?
I'm right in the middle.
You're right in the middle. So, uh, James Ray—the name sounds familiar to me. Is this a Black man?
No, no. It's a white man.
It's a white Ray. Okay, I know there are lots of Ray's in this area. So, the apartments he owned they were all over Asheville?
They were all over Asheville and Biltmore.
Okay, thank you. So, tell me what elementary school did you go to?
I went to St. Anthony's elementary school. That was on Walton St. and I
think I owe a lot of my success to the missionaries, the Catholic
missionaries who came here- white [KN: MmmHmm.]
So, you attended St. Anthony's from throughout elementary up to high school?
From the first through the eighth grade.
Ahh..
Then went to Stephens-Lee after the eighth grade.
So St. Anthony's—I've heard a little bit about that. That place is pretty significant itself. It was a Catholic Missionary School for Black Children. Mmmhmm. Tell me a little bit more about that. You got a really good education there—what else?
We got a real good education starting from the first grade and we were tested twice a year-December and January. The tests were sent up from Raleigh to the teachers and they couldn't open the tests-the principal came around and broke the seal on the tests—[ The elegant grandfather clock chimed-we paused the tape briefly]
We had a slight pause because the beautiful grandfather clock, occasionally rings-what is it gong? If that happens again, that will be the explanation for it. You were telling me a little bit about the testing?
I was telling you about the testing. The principal would bring the test
around and break the seal in front of the class and we would take the
test. And of course the test would be sent to Raleigh for grading and
the same test were sent to all of the Catholic schools throughout the
state of North Carolina. I think that was their way of assuring that
That's kind of a big issue right now—the testing situation. So, you were saying that you were ahead when you went to Stephens—Lee.
Right. We were way ahead of other students because we were required to take the—I would think the same courses they were taking there but anyway—they were a little stricter. If we didn't pass the test we were left back.
About how many students were there per class at Catholic Hill—I mean, excuse me, not Catholic Hill, St. Anthony's.
It varied. We had more in the first and second grade. We had two classes to a room. First and second grade was in one room, third and fourth in another, fifth and sixth in another, seventh and eighth in another. And of course, as we moved further up in grades, the class size decreased. I would say we probably in the first grade we may have had twenty or thirty students in a class and by the time we got to seventh and eighth grade we may have had twelve in the seventh and maybe bout twelve in the eighth.
So, I'm curious at St. Anthony's were you taught anything like Black history or anything like that by the Catholic nuns?
Yes, we were taught a little of black history. We used textbooks that we
were required to use by the state, but some of the things they told us
about were not in the history book and some things were in the history
book, but they elaborated on it. The thing that sticks out in my mind
even to this day was the discussion we had about the
Dred Scott
I mean—Dred Scott—uhhuh—Dred Scott decision—when Chief Justice R.B. made that—read the decision.
So, you talked about that?
Yeah, we talked about that.
That's interesting. So, um, it must have been a big change to move from having all white teachers in elementary school to having black teachers at Stephens—Lee—or was it?
It wasn't. Because I didn't think in terms of race. Even through the eighth grade I never felt it—whites were any different, any better than I was. In fact, even in my work and all after school with whites— I just never felt there was any difference.
So, there wasn't—First of all, it's obvious that you admired your education at St. Anthony's—so, it sounds as if they didn't treat you all any different because you were black.
Definitely not. They taught us more than we were required to learn. In fact, I can remember my first savings account—uh, Missionary Priest had us to bring our nickels and what not to him he gave us a little pass book and he saved our money for us until we got enough to put in the bank and then he would drive us down to the bank to put it in the bank. This is something extra that we were being taught—to save.
That's interesting. So, tell me you started Stephens—Lee in the ninth grade, and you were saying that race wasn't an issue to you, but did it ever dawn on you at any particular time that you were going to a segregated school?
Well, a time that it really dawned on me, was when I wanted to check a book out from the library—we had an assignment—and uh, we had a colored library. I went to the colored library to do my assignment and I couldn't find the books I wanted. And the lady at the library told me that she would get them from Pack Memorial Library, which was a white library—just a couple of steps away—and I made three trips up and the book still hadn't arrived and so I told her I said listen I need this for an assignment and I'll go up there and get it. And that really upset her—she really got worried I guess because she said, Oh no, no, don't do that, I'll get it, I'll get it for you". But to me, I felt that I could walk in there and demand the book. Because as I said before I didn't feel like I was any different from the rest of em. I probably would have gotten in trouble if I had gone, but uh—
Where was the Colored library located, then?
On the corner of uh—right where the YMI Cultural Center is located now—in that area—at Market and Eagle.
So, in terms of access to books you started to realize that there was a difference.
There was a difference, right. We couldn't get the books that we wanted.
Okay, and— did Stephens—Lee become more challenging for you after the first year?
In became more challenging because I took courses—selected
courses we were not required to take. For example, physics wasn't a
required course, but I took physics. I
Tell me about a little bit about your band experience. This band is pretty well known actually I hear a lot about the Stephens—Lee band
Right—uh We used to march—we had one of the best bands—our director Madison C. Leonard, spent a lot of time with us. To give an example—we had what we call a clarinet club. I'll show you a picture—(lost word)—we would go from house to house and practice music—then after we finished practicing we would have little treats. He would take us in his car to different music groups at the colleges—music conferences—he used to take us to A&T and he used to take us down to Winston—Salem Teacher's College and different places to participate in statewide contests for music—and then of course we had our concerts at the school—which by the way I would always invite the people that I worked for— whites—and they would always come and see me play. At that time, I was a much better musician than I am today. Music does something for you—it's an out and it's something that you never forget—it's sorta like riding a bicycle. In fact, I still play in an Orchestra. I play in the Asheville Community Band and the Land of the Sky Symphony band, here in Asheville.
Mmm. Wow—So, had you played saxophone before you joined the band?
No, no.
So, that was your first—?
That was my first—they taught me to play saxophone. Dr. Leonard at Stephens—Lee taught me to play—Clarinet is my instrument. And in the band I played clarinet and saxophone. But, right now I play clarinet.
Oh, I see. So, what kind—I'm curious—can you give me an idea of what kind of music did you guys play in the band because I have no concept—my school didn't even have a band.
Well, we played classical, semi—classical, and uh jazz, and uh
also marches. I think John Phillip Souza was one Doc Leonard's favorite
uh music writers and we played a lot of his marches. And then we had
these little music books—one we used to play was called
"seventeen." [unclear]
How did that go? Can you hum a little bit?
I really don't remember [Laughter] [unclear]
Oh, I've heard of her. I need to talk with her.
You really do.
Do you know what your favorite song was?
At Stephens—Lee? The St. Louis Blues March.
Oh, St. Louis Blues March! Is that the same—?
It's the same as they play today.
They start out with the drums and then it goes to you know (here he begins to hum it) But, it's jazzed up so you can march to it. And then the other song that I can recall us playing was uh, Tenessee Waltz, Carolina Moon—I know one time we played Carolina Moon at the half—time football game and they turned the lights off in the stadium and each one of us had a flashlight—we turned the flashlight on and it was—we marched and lined up in the shape of a half—moon and played Carolina Moon.
Mmm.. That's nice. Mmm, so I wanted to ask you about the march down Patton street.
Patton Avenue—okay we were the raggiedest band in Asheville
because our uniforms were hand me downs from the white schools and uh we
didn't have money in the budget to buy nice, new uniforms when I started
out. In fact, some of the students didn't have uniforms— they
only had a hat. Maybe a uniform hat—but no uniform pants and
clothes. But, uh we had rhythm and we had one of the—well,
people would always—we would get more applause coming down
Patton Avenue I think than anyone, because of the rhythm that we had and
Miss Chappell taught the majorettes when I was in high school and I have
not seen a band to this day—majorettes or
anyone—that marched with the rhythm that she had the
majorettes—in the form that she had the majorettes doing. The
certain bends in the body. They weren't stiff— they were just
so—they would go down—I wish I could demonstrate
[Laughter]
Not even the black colleges?
In none of the black colleges. Nowhere. It was really different. Because they would limber at the waist and as they marched they'd put their heads down and lift their heads up—they had rhythm in the head and uh, the arms and everything. They just don't do that today. They're kind of stiff. They march and they move only their legs today.
It would be great to have that on video.
It would be. It was really something to see.
Is Miss Chappell still living?
No, no. I don't think so.
Okay, so um the band sounds like it was a very significant experience for you.
It was very, very, significant.
What were some of your other favorite courses?
Well, of course French. I enjoyed French and uh, typing. That was another elective that we weren't required to take that I took.
I know that came in handy.
It did. It really did. And then of course, music appreciation from Mrs. Reynolds—where we learned to do all of the different types of dances—waltzes, square dances, and whatnot.
So, you were really into music.
I like all types of music. I appreciate all types of music.
Who taught the French class?
Dusenberry. Mr. Dusenberry. Paul Dusenberry.
Okay, I've actually heard of him.
He was a very good French instructor.
How did you get to school? —Your mode of transportation.
Well, sometimes we'd catch a bus. For thirty—five cents you could get enough tickets to ride to school for a week. But, uh we didn't have that much money, so we figured out we could take that 35 cents and spend it—if we walked to school we could have 35 cents extra in our pockets. So, a lot of times we walked to school.
How long did it take you, if you walked?
Oh, maybe about—maybe about thirty minutes. It didn't seem that long because you'd always meet people as you walked along the way—and you talked while you were walking and it really didn't seem that far. And what we would do—as I said before you'd get ten attached tickets for 35 cents. So, some days you'd ride the bus and some days you wouldn't. You could use the tickets any time you wanted. They never expired. So, the next week you might say, well you decide to walk home with friends one day and at the end of the week you may have four tickets left over. So, you save those and next week you'd have some left over. So, you save those tickets for the rain—if it's raining hard then you'd use your tickets. But, if it wasn't raining you'd just walk home.
So, you enjoyed walking?
Right, you enjoyed walking—
And um, what was your social group? Who did you hang out with when you were in high school? You can give me names and or whatever—
Most of the people that, uh—See Reece [Bassey?] was one that I
hung with for quite a while—you know quite a bit. I guess
Reese and I hung out more than—Fred Funderberg and—
—Of course, it would all depend upon what's going on. Whenever
it was something musically related and a lot of the band—we
would hang out with the band. Julianne Mays,
You had a dance band—outside of the school band?
Right—outside of the school band.
Where did you guys perform?
Anywhere they wanted us to. We uh, performed at nightclubs here in Asheville.
Really?
Yes, and uh—
What was the name of your band?
Uh, Downbeats.
The Downbeats.
Right. We played dance music. In fact, one night we were having an event—I think it was Junior or Senior Prom— where I got a call from Hendersonville that their band didn't show up—and so we left our prom and went to Hendersonville to play for theirs.
Were you playing at your prom? Or you were at—
No, I was just at the prom. Right, at the prom.
That's something else.
When we got there—I can remember when we got there the students were all in a depressive state of mind because they didn't have a band and we went in there and struck up the music and everything livened up.
Was this another black school?
Another black school, yeah. And we played at the Castle Loma restaurant downtown—on the square. We didn't make any money, but we had a lot of fun.
No, you never got paid?
They'd give us a little money, but not very much.
How many people were in this band?
Let's see we had Emory Moorehead, Moses Singleton, Lawrence Ivey, Harold Woodard, myself—Richard Bowman—someone else, one other person from time to time—a drummer. We didn't have a regular drummer, cause Moses Singleton played drums sometimes and he played piano and Lawrence Ivey played piano most of the time.
What were the names of some of the clubs you played at?
Well, I said—Castle Loma—that was over where Pack Place is now downtown Asheville and um it was a nightclub out in Black Mountain. I forget the name of it. But, it was—In fact, I tried to find it and I couldn't when I moved back to Asheville. I don't know if its still there.
Were these black clubs?
Well, the one—Castle Loma was a white club. And the one in Black Mountain was a black club.
Hmm. It seems like you did a lot in high school. You played in the band, you had school, you had your own band sometime—did you have to work, also?
Oh yes, I had to work—or else I never would have made it to college if I didn't.
Where did you work?
Different yards in Kenilworth. I would—I'd do housework—wash woodwork, wax floors, rake leaves, and uh, work in the—do yard work—prune, weed the flower beds, and whatnot and wash windows.
How much would you get paid to do that kind of work?
Usually 25 cents an hour, yeah. And then I finally got up to 35 cents and hour.
And this was all throughout high school?
It was all throughout high school. And then I helped my dad, too. I'd go around and help him on Saturday and Sunday. Fill up the stokers—that's the thing that you put coal in— and it would feed into the furnace and then take down the trash, cut grass, at the different places and hedges and whatnot.
Did you get to save your money for yourself? Or was this for the family or—
No, no this was—I got to save this. It was my money. So, I got a chance to save it. I fact, what I did sometimes I would stop on the way home downtown and spend about everything I made because I would be hungry out here—get doughnuts and whatnot and take em home for the rest of the family. But, mom and dad never asked me for money. No, anything [we?] made—I'd use it to buy clothes and whatnot and school supplies and save for college. In fact, had I not, I would never have been able to go to college, because when I finished high school and wanted to go to college my dad said no and told me I had to work a year. And I told him that uh, I didn't want to work a year—that uh, I had saved enough money to get there and I had already registered and that I was going and I was going to stay until my money ran out.
And that's what you did?
And that's what I did. And I told my dean about it when I got there so he told me don't worry—no one has ever been put out of Tuskeegee because of lack of money.
Hmmm . . .
He helped me get a job on campus—to work in the evenings and whatnot and my dad— I don't know how he did it, but I had a sister at Xavier and then of course I was at Tuskeegee, but he found money somewhere and sent it to me.
Hmmhmm. So he ended up supporting your decision—
He supported it—right.
That's good. So, tell me when did you know that you wanted to go to college?
Oh, when I was in high school. My brother—Nathaniel, that lives here—he wanted to go and uh my father couldn't afford to send him. He had sent for a book—a bulletin from Tuskeegee and had it on the dresser. And I used to read through it—the different courses and I'd ask the teachers about it. And that's what really got me interested. Had he not ordered the book I probably never would have even thought about college.
Really? So, did your brother ever get to go?
Unh. Unh
He never went?
But, he did extremely well. He worked—went into the service got out worked at the VA Hospital until he retired.
Was he also a Stephens—Lee graduate?
He's a Stephens—Lee graduate? And he sent me money while I was
in college. It almost brings tears to my eyes [his voice has become choked with emotion] [brief pause]
So where is your brother now?
He's here.
He's here in Asheville?
Yeah, Mmhmm.
So, you were in the middle—and how many got to go to college ahead of you?
My sister—went to Xavier and then me and my brother and my
youngest sister [KN: They all went? RB: They all went]
Hmm.. Which Catholic church did your sister get a scholarship from?
St. Anthony's set it up and she went to Xavier in New Orleans.
Was there a high school guidance counselor at Stephens—Lee—if you had aspirations to go to college?
All of the teachers—they were all counselors.
Do you remember one in particular that you talked with about going to Tuskeegee?
I didn't talk to any about going to Tuskeegee—In fact, uh the
principal, Mr. Tolliver, the principal and all they wanted me to go to a
couple of other schools. In fact, I had a scholarship to Talladega and a
couple of other schools. What they used to do—they used to
send people around to test students for scholarships and they'd always
call me—the principal and the teachers would always ask me to
go in and take the test and I would take the
test—eventhough—I knew I didn't want to go to that
particular school—Talladega
But, you had other options, though.
Oh yeah, I had other options.
That was actually—that was very good—
But, all of the teachers—Miss Carolina was a English teacher—Mrs. Rumley(?) our math teacher—they would all answer any questions that we had and then Mrs. Michael my next door neighbor was a college graduate. She was a dietician at Stephens—Lee and she would answer questions too—so, we had plenty of guidance.
You had support and guidance there—um, this was—so you were there between what 47 and 51 about and this was a little bit before the 1954 decision, but I'm wondering was this anything that was discussed at all in school?—that the end of segregation might be coming or anything like that?
No
It was never—
We never even thought of it—I mean we'd see the students uh come in and not realize what they were going through the students from the outskirts of Asheville—Black Mountain, Weaverville, Mars Hill and these used school buses that had been given to them by the white schools—some of em had no windows or broken windows whatnot and the students had to ride those buses and that's why when people would start talkin about busin, I said, gee we've been doing it for years with us—they've been busin us all over the place.
Right, right. That's interesting. So, can you think of the names of any students that had to do that busing from out—
Emory Moorehead the one that I told you played in my band. He was one.
Is he still living?
No, he's deceased now.
Okay. I would like to interview one of those people that went through that experience.
But, I don't know of anybody—don't know that many—
Were there any type of politics that were discussed in class—having to do with race relations, either in school or out of school or anything like that?
No. I can't remember any type. The only type of politics that we had. We had a mayor of Stephens—Lee and a couple of other positions. It was an elected position—the students voted for the mayor. In fact, I know that uh, I ran for mayor one year.
What year was that?
I don't remember what year it was—somewhere during the time that I was there. And I ran against Frances Jackson and I know my English teacher, Miss Harrison uh, told me that was—she said my campaign speech was the best campaign speech she had ever heard—because I remember, that's when students from uh Asheland Avenue had to come to Stephens—Lee to finish up their—they eliminated Asheland Avenue and the seventh grade from Asheland Avenue moved over to Stephens—Lee.
Oh, there was an Asheland Avenue school?
Right. Oh, so we used to have just the ninth—we used to have
the ninth, tenth, and eleventh grade, and twelfth grade at
Stephens—Lee—but, the eighth grade moved over to
Well, what was the outcome of that election?
Well, I lost the election.
[Laughter]
You lost the election
[Laughter]
That was a very close election. I bet I didn't lose by twenty—five votes—
Yeah, that's very close. What were some of the other things on your platform—do you remember?
I really don't well, I was not in favor of—we have something called "core" at Stephens—Lee—and I was not in favor of core at all and you go to your home room and the teacher was supposed to teach you, supposed to consist of English, Math, Civics, and something else. What you would do, you cut out newspaper articles and bring em in and discuss em. And like I said it was boring to me I wanted some math, algebra, geometry—some real courses—some structure
So, core was like a homeroom class?
It was kind of a home room class. And each teacher taught it differently and it was really a waste of time.
You said that in your speech?
Well, no, no
[Laughter]
So, tell me um—I'm curious—were there any issues in terms of color, skin color at Stephens—Lee? And class, and that type of thing—did those things ever come up?
I never recall any of those things coming up. We just didn't think of it. We accepted segregation and we just didn't think about it.
I mean skin color between blacks—like light skin/dark skin.
No, no
None of that ever came up?
Never with me—you could see evidence of it in the neighborhood
[unclear]
So, you don't think it was an issue—that's good to know. Tell me a little bit about the graduation ceremony—how was that handled?
Well, bout the same as it is today. We'd march down the aisle. In fact, I still have my commencement —you know, the program from the commencement.
Where was it held?
In the gym—no, not the gym the auditorium. We had a beautiful
auditorium at Stephens—Lee—and we'd march down the
aisle [KN interjects to ask if it were separate from the gym and he
replies that it was]
Do you remember who the commencement speaker was at your graduation?
I sure don't.—I think it was J.W. Bowers [unclear]
Okay, we'll have to look at that. So, you graduated in 1951 and then you went off to Tuskeegee—
Went off to Tuskeegee for four years and then
completing—getting my degree at Tuskeegee. I took ROTC and
again—I took ROTC for three years, because the world situation
wasn't that safe so I got out of it my junior year—got out of
ROTC, cause I didn't want to go fight in Korea. So, when I went to
Tuskeegee, I knew I had to get in and out of there in four
years—so, I took all of my difficult courses in freshman and
sophomore year—so if I flunked em I'd have time to take em
over—so, luckily, I passed em all which meant my junior and
senior year I didn't have that much to do—so, anyway the
major, commandant called me in his office and said, I see you took ROTC
for two years and you didn't take it your junior year—he said
if you come back and take it—if you'll come back into ROTC,
I'll let you take two years in your senior year and you can still get a
commission. And so, I told him I'll think about it—and I
thought about it and I didn't even go back, but he called me again and
said, not only that— he said, but now when you get your
commission you could get in any branch you want—the Airforce,
the Marines, or the Ordinance Core or the infantry and the governments
paying, they pay you so much a month. So, I said okay. So, I went ahead
and took the two years. But, uh see you usually go to summer camp
between your junior and senior year and I had missed summer
camp—so, he said the only thing see you'll have to go to Fort
Bening after you get your —you know for summer
camp—which means you'll get your commission at Fort Bening. I
said,
[a little confused about the events just described—not familiar with process of commission] So, you took two more years of ROTC?
I took my junior and senior year of ROTC in my senior year.
Oh, I see. I see now I understand. So, you took your two years, but in your senior year—because you hadn't taken it the junior year and you got to choose which branch of the Armed Forces you would go to. And you chose?
I chose the Ordinance Core. In fact, I was the first black officer from Tuskeegee to get a commission in the Ordinance Core. Before that, everyone had to get a commission in the Infantry—foot—
And is that in the Army? I'm not that familiar with that. So, where did you serve? Well, majority of the time it was in Germany and France. Germany first, [Kaiserslauten?] and Ryan Ordinance Depot—the German name is difficult for KN to understand)
At where now?
Ryan Ordinance Depot in Germany.
What city was that in?
It was right out of—it was in Kaiserslauten. Then of course in
France, I was at Brickoln [unclear]
I have to get the spelling of those before I leave.
Okay.
What was that like? Going from Tuskeegee, coming from the South and going over to Europe?
Well, you know—let me backtrack a bit. You talk about
integration and whatnot, segregation—that's when I first
started feeling segregation. When I got my commission at Fort Bening.
They—I didn't know it was a tradition—it's a
tradition to invite your girlfriend/wife/or mother to come down and pin
your bars on you. They didn't tell me anything about that. So, I didn't
have anybody to pin my bars on me when I got my commission. So, my white
captain, Captain Sutnick—I'll never forget him—had
to pin my bars on me. And all of the white soldiers had invited their
friends and family down, but I had noone there to pin mine on. Because
again, I was the only uh—black in that group getting a
commission and that's the way I feel [unclear]
So, were you allowed to stay?
No. We had to leave. In fact, this was at the Picadilly Club in
Baltimore, Maryland and uh, we left and I had a friend at a black
nightclub that I had been to before the comedy club— so I
called down at the comedy club and told them what happened and told them
they wouldn't let me in there and told them I had some friends and they
were white and that we were out celebrating the end of our class,
graduation. And I asked them if I
So, Fort Bening is in Baltimore?
No, Fort Bening is in Georgia. You get your commission in Fort Bening. Then after you get your commission, you go and sit until you get your orders to report for duty. When you get your orders to report for duty they tell you where to report. In my case, I got my commission at the end of the summer camp in June—I reported for duty the second of December that same year. But, during that time between I was working.
In Baltimore?
No, no. I stayed around Asheville, here. Cause, it was just a couple of months.
And then they told you to report to Baltimore?
They told me to report to Aberdeen Proving Ground, in Maryland—Ordinance School at Aberdeen Proving Ground. We used to leave—Baltimore was close to Aberdeen—so, that's where we would go for the weekend. That's one of the places we would go
So, that experience at the Picadilly Club—was that the first time that something like that had happened to you?
Yeah, that was the first time. In Asheville, my brother—we were
riding the bus—the bus ran from the black section of town to
the white section of town and of course it would always fill
up—and say for example—this night we were coming
from the movie and when we got on the bus near the black section of
town, all of the seats were filled up in the back so we just filled on
up to the front and we got up at Pritchard Park—one of the
white sections and also close to where we lived, the seats emptied and
some whites came and sat behind my brother and the driver wanted my
brother to get up and move back but [KN: interjects to ask: This is your younger brother? RB: No, my
younger brother.]
Really?
Yeah.
Last time—period you would do something like that!
Yeah, the last time.
That's quite a threat.
It is, and so I just got off the bus and that's it.
That was pretty brave of you—how old were you then?
Oh, let's see—I couldn'ta—I had t have been probably about fifteen years old or something like that. I was young. I was in high school.
So, you were challenging the system.
Yeah, there and like I said with the library. Cause, I just never had any fear, you know.
Let me back up a little bit. I want to ask you about the transition from Stephens—Lee to Tuskeegee. Did you feel prepared at Tuskeegee?
Oh yes. Of course, Tuskeegee made sure you were prepared. They had study hall twice a week—supervised study hall—and you had to go there to do your studying—if you had any questions, someone was there to answer them for you—to answer your questions for your. But, Stephens—Lee—we had some of the best teachers—we had more teachers with Masters. Every summer the teachers at Stephens—Lee would go to the different colleges to work on their masters and what not in different fields. And we probably had a higher percentage of Masters at Stephens—Lee than we had at Lee Edwards High School—the white high school, here in Asheville. The teachers were very well qualified.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[It seems that about five or so minutes of the interview is missing]
Compare the experience of going to a black high school to going to the black college of Tuskeegee.
Well, I found Tuskeegee to be a lot like Stephens—Lee. The teachers were caring. They were concerned about how you did and just real concerned about your welfare—it was more like a big family, you know. And that—I don't think you find that in a lot of your colleges— your predominantly white colleges today. That's why even today, I highly recommend students to consider—if they're considering college—to consider an historically black college over an historically white college. Because even after you graduate, you're still like family if you meet someone from that particular school—they still treat you like a brother or sister, they're brothers and sisters.
Yeah, that's what I hear. So, did you know when you entered that you would major in business.
No, because your first year or two, you take your basic subjects, you take your English and Math, Biology, Chemistry, and whatnot, so you have a little while to decide what your gonna major in.
How did you come to that decision?
Well, I had planned on going into business for myself—which I did do, by the way.
What kind of business?
Automotive business. I had a one—stop service station in Norfolk, Virginia.
Oh, really? Right out of college?
Right, right out of college. That's where I worked until I was called to active duty.
So, how long did you have that?
Oh, let's see now—let me back track a little—uh, I worked as a salesperson before then, selling roofing—home construction, you know— for Allied Roofing and Construction Company, here in Asheville. And then I went to—there and worked—for about a couple of years.
So, what did you do? Worked on cars?
No, I had a one—stop service station. Phillips 66 service station.
Oh, I see it was a gas station. Okay, great—and you did that
for a couple of years. You were at Tuskeegee from 1951—1955?
[RB: Correct.]
Well, not—it was just starting because most of the things happened after I was in service—see, I was in the service—Eisenhower became president while I was in the service and that's when they integrated—well, Truman integrated the Armed Services before then—right before then. But, most of the civil rights movement started— I think after 1955.
But, what I'm thinking about particularly is the Brown vs. Board of Education ruling in 1954 and then the Montgomery Bus Boycott and surely you heard of what was going on?
Right, we heard what was going on and when they had Brown vs Board of Education, I wasn't aware about all of the court—the time it takes something to go through the courts. I thought once the Supreme Court ruled [in favor of] Brown of Education, the next September everything was going to be integrated. And I was saying, gee I can see it now, they're going to have whites going to the high school where I attended and blacks going to the other school and whatnot, but never dreamed it would take this many years as it did before it finally—they still have some schools under mandate for busing for integrating and whatnot.[the rest of this sentence is unclear]
So, you thought that whites would come into Stephens—Lee and some blacks would go to the white high school?
Right, I never even thought of tearing down Stephens—Lee. Yeah, cause you have all of the black teachers and you have the same number of students you have to teach—I just didn't see them doing it any other way.
How did if feel when you found out that they were going to close down Stephens—Lee in 1965?
I was very concerned—very concerned. And of course, I wasn't here. I was in California when I found out they were gonna close it down. And I just wondered why? Because they had closed down the other schools. They had closed down Livingston Street, that's the elementary school, and Hill Street school, the other elementary school they had closed down. In fact, most of the schools that they closed were black schools.
Uh huh—throughout the state of North Carolina.
More than likely, if you look into it the same will probably hold true in other states.
How did you hear about it? Someone called you, or did you read about it in the paper?
Well, in conversation. My parents were still here and they would tell me what was going on in the city.
Were you coming back to visit?
Oh yeah, I'd come back all the time. I'd come back probably—at least every other summer, I'd come back to visit my parents.
So, similarly when they decided to knock down the school, that must have quite a surprise, also.
I really wasn't surprised, because I've been living in the United States and I'm—you know, when you pick up a newspaper, you look at the T.V. you know how our society works. I mean—it hasn't changed and I don't know if it ever will change. You have—you see a lot of white faces and they do things for the benefit of other white faces. You have some whites that are in favor of a level playing field, but you have more that are not than you have, that are. I feel that way anyway. And so, that's why they said, Stephens—Lee goes. And if it wasn't for Everette Parrish, we wouldn't even have the gym that's being renovated now. He was a fighter and he stuck to his guns and was able to push it through.
So, tell me a little bit about that—how did Everette Parrish—how was he instrumental in that?
Well, he made the people in the community think for one thing. And then
he did a lot of research and history on it and uh, was able to get the
City to thinking and the City
That was real important. So, tell me in your opinion, as you look back on your years at Stephens—Lee and what's happened since then—how would you compare what's gone on in the black community since Stephens—Lee was there and now in the contemporary time? In other words, what kind of changes have gone on and what did the closing of Stephens—Lee have to do with that?
Well, [pause]
So, you, yourself are a part of that movement—you have returned—and we're gonna talk a little bit about where you went—but, you have returned to Asheville as a retired man—was it your plan to come back and give back to your community?
To be honest, no. My plan was to retire and come back to Asheville and relax and enjoy these beautiful mountains, but when I came back and found out what was going on in Asheville, I said I can't retire. Cause, it's too many things need to be done—
What kind of things are you talking about?
Well, one is uh, the education system—the number of blacks finishing high school. They don't have black graduating classes the size of the classes we had finishing high school—just a few blacks. In certain positions, blacks appear to be being used. The black males are strong and are used as football players to win games for the school, but after football season is over they are forgotten about. There's no concern about their education. In fact, I volunteered to work on a committee here to monitor the black athletes and see to it that if they don't maintain their grades, they not play football.
So, you volunteer at the high school?
Yeah. And I volunteer to work on the Ashville City Schools Foundation
Board. And that's another board where we work with education. I work on
this listing [unclear]
So, you're quite busy.
Yeah—when I came here those were not my plans—not by a longshot.
It sounds like you were needed. Were you involved—or have you been involved with the Alumni Association since its inception in 1980?
The Stephens—Lee Alumni?
Oh, you weren't here in 1980—
No, no—I came back—I haven't missed any reunions. I came back for the reunions since 1980. But, I wasn't involved in the planning. This is the first year I was involved in the planning.
Describe that experience—being involved in the Alumni Association—what that means to you.
Well, again—It was an eyeopener. Again, it permitted me to see certain areas where I might be able to contribute something to the Alumni. I know there are other people who have contributed, but you see a lot of areas you think that maybe they need a little more help on.
What areas would you like to see improved?