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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
K-0544, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Sheila Florence, among the first African Americans to desegregate Chapel Hill High School in Chapel Hill, NC, remembers growing up in the segregated South and working to end desegregation. She recalls the poor conditions at all-black schools in Chapel Hill and the harassment she endured when she entered the formerly all-white Chapel Hill High School. Although she was courageous enough to be a part of the desegregation of a school, she asserts that she was not brave enough to face arrest in protests. She did, however, picket with other civil rights marchers.
Researchers interested in the details of life in a low-income African American community after World War II should look to the beginning of this interview for unexcerpted information.
Sheila Florence, among the first African Americans to desegregate Chapel Hill High School in Chapel Hill, NC, remembers growing up in the segregated South and working to end desegregation.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is January 20, 2001. This is Bob Gilgor, interviewing Sheila Florence at Ted Stone's home at 312 McDade. Good afternoon Sheila.
Good afternoon.
How are you?
I'm fine
I appreciate your sitting here talking with me on a Saturday afternoon. The first question I want to ask you is what was it like growing up in Chapel Hill?
As I think back, it was good for me growing up. My school years, I attended Northside Elementary School and I had good teachers. I had teachers that showed that they cared for the students and worked with us and as I think back at a younger age, as a child, do I go back that far, as a child? I think back growing up as far back as when things was not integrated, and back then, that's the way things was, that's the way we was brought up, and we just figured that's the way its supposed to be. And the way they had the signs at the bus stop—me and my Mom used to go to the Trailways bus station to catch the bus to Durham—they had black, well it was "colored" back then, on one side and "white" on the other, and we had our place on the bus, we had our water fountains for coloreds and our bathrooms for coloreds, and we figured that's just the way its supposed to be until later when integration did come about, and we came into the knowledge that it's not supposed to be that way, everybody's supposed to be equal—but being white, white thought "white meant right" and back then white was superior, and we just assumed that's the way its supposed to be, and we just let things go as it was, and that's just the way it was until Martin Luther King came and then we could see the light and knew that it wasn't supposed to be that way.
So were you taught to just follow the system?
We were taught that's just the way it was, that's the way it's supposed to be, and everybody just automatically knew. You just didn't get out of line, you didn't go to the water fountain, cause you could see the sign, or if you didn't read our parents would show us—"now, we use this water fountain, or this bathroom, and this is for somebody else, this is for white people," they'd say.
Did you grow up in the same neighborhood right here?
Yes, right down the street, and we all got along and, back then, it's not like today, everybody going this way and that way and nobody has time to visit. Back then, everybody knew each other, and everybody took time with each other, cause everybody was somebody in the black community, back then. We had time to go to visit, and when one child got out of line, then that parent would correct them and call the child's mom and say "Sheila, or Charles, or whoever, was cutting up and I had to correct them." And then when we got home, then we would be corrected again.
Double trouble.
Double trouble. [Laughter]
What were your parents like?
Well, let's see. My mom was active in the community because she was the piano player for the church, and everybody knew, her nickname was "Bodie," everybody around knew Miss Bodie, because she played for five different churches at one time, and she liked to sing, and play, she played piano, and she played organ, and she played guitar. My aunt, Cotton, taught my Mom to play guitar, and she learned playing on a freight train. I had a good mom, and my dad, he got killed in a car accident. I was a teenager at the time.
What did you dad do for a living?
He delivered coal, Bennett and Blocks, they delivered coal to heat wood stoves, back then.
Did your mom, did she work also?
Yes, she worked also. She done domestic work, she would go to the home and clean up, we called that, it wasn't housekeeping, but the term nowadays is domestic work, but house cleaning. Yes, she done house cleaning. And washing and tending to, if the person had a child, she would tend the child in the home. She would leave our house and go tend to the white folks' place.
How many days a week did she work?
5 days a week.
Did she have the weekend off?
Weekends off, and then on weekends she played for choir rehearsals and church services.
Who made the dinner if she was out working?
Well, she's get off at like 2 o'clock, one o'clock. Back then, you only worked from 8 to 12 or from 8 to one or two. Then she'd come home, and then she'd do dinner.
Did you have any brothers or sisters?
One brother and one sister. I had one brother that was two years older than I am and one sister that was three years younger.
Did your parents ever talk about the work that they did?
Sometimes, my Mom did, because she'd go and—one of the persons she worked for was Anne Queen. Anne Queen was head of the Y down on campus, and she said "I'm going down to Anne Queen's" or "I've been up to Anne Queen's and she had several people up for her party," and she'd help with the dinner and then wash the dishes and then help put everything back away.
How did your parents get along?
They had ups and downs, cause they were divorced. When he got killed, they were divorced already. So I was like, middle-age, when they divorced, cause he liked to drink a lot, spend a lot of money, then come home and all the money'd be gone.
How much alcohol abuse did you see in the community?
Not a lot back then, or they kept it hid. Like my dad, he go out and drink and then come home and sleep.
So he didn't beat up your mother?
No, didn't have anything like that.
Did you see much abuse?
No. Can't think of a lot back then.
Did you see as many single-parent homes back then as you do today?
No, back then, they stayed together, even sometimes if they didn't get along for the children's sake they would stay on and you'd find out later that the Mom slept in one room and the Dad slept in another room. They were in the same house.
But you did see some single parents.
Some. But nowadays they have single parents because the girls get pregnant so young. Back then, they'd didn't talk about sex, but nice girls just didn't do that. Back then, that's how we were brought up. Nice girls didn't go out after dark. They'd go to school, come home, do the homework, help around the house. You didn't go off up the street. Or you'd go off with your Mom or dad. You had your friends, and they'd come over to the house, and you'd walk over to community center, or up to the store, but you'd be back before dark. That was the rule.
Was the community center a big gathering place?
Oh yeah, that's where'd we all go, to the community center.
Is that what's now the Hargrave center?
The Hargrave center. But now, like some men, some of the girls, we'd get together and walk over the center. We'd go in and listen to music and we'd try to dance, or meet up with some other friends and talk about what's going on at school
You said that Northside teachers really cared for you.
Oh yeah, if you weren't doing your schoolwork they'd call up your parents and let them know that, that we're talking too much and not doing our homework, not doing our schoolwork.
And then what would happen?
Then our parents would get on us [unclear]
So the teachers really cared for the students and you saw that in how they would contact the parents and tell them you weren't doing your studies.
Yeah, because like my brother in school he liked to go and have a good
time, to play, in school, do a lot of talking, so he got reported. And
the teacher called my Mom up and said "Charles is not doing his
schoolwork, you need to get on him." And she'd say,
"Okay, I'll get on him, I'll straighten him out," is
what she'd say. [Laughter]
Where did you get the switch?
Out in the yard, we had hedges. [unclear]
Where did you get hit with the switch?
ON your legs. [Laughter]
How many stings would you get?
Several. [Laughter]
It wasn't like twenty or thirty?
Oh no, not like that many.
Not like child abuse?
Oh no, not like child abuse. Because she was saying "yeah, nowadays, if you used the switch more, you wouldn't have a lot of trouble going on." The children wouldn't get in as much.
Did they use the switch at school?
No, let see. They used the ruler.
The ruler.
ON the hands, cause I remember getting hit on the hands a couple of times. You'd get three or four licks on the hands.
You don't seem to be upset by that, or angry. You had a smile on your face.
Well, that's just the type of person I am. But back then, I was upset about it, cause I didn't think they should discipline that way.
What do you think now? Do you still think that?
I think they should be punished. And I know sometimes, they have us to write on the board, "I will not act up," or "I will not talk in class," or "I will not talk in school."
So you like that kind of discipline better than physical.
Than physical. I think that would work better.
What kinds of games did you play outside?
Outside at recess we'd play, what was that, we'd play baseball, or jack rocks, that's what we liked to play. The girls used to play jack-rocks and the boys would play-
-marbles-
Marbles, that's it. And we would play hopscotch. That's what the girls like to play.
Hopscotch and jack rocks. Are jack rocks those little jacks?
Jacks and a ball. You'd throw it up in the air and pick up a jack. We played that. I can't remember whether they had basketball or not. Maybe at a higher grade the boys would play basketball. And the girls, that's when we would play our hopscotch. But like we were saying, the younger age, we would play jack rocks, color, stuff like that at break.
What kind of house did you live in?
Let's see, I lived in a two bedroom. Two bedrooms, a bathroom, a kitchen, and a living room.
And what kind of heat did you have?
We had a wood stove.
So your bedroom wasn't heated if the stove was in center.
It wasn't in the center, it was back in one of the bedrooms where my Mom slept. And also, we had my grandmother lived with us.
So you had you, your mother and father, your grandmother, your brother, and a sister.
A brother and sister. That's right. It was crowded [unclear]
No air conditioning?
No air conditioning. The house still don't have, the house we live in now still don't have air condition. My mama was brought up with no air condition, and she didn't ever get used to the air condition. In wintertime, to stay warm, we had the plastic over the window.
Did you have plaster on the wall, or could you see the -
-plaster on the wall. Plaster on the wall.
The cold didn't just come right through.
No, but you had to keep the fire going. Or, I remember, before we got
the wood stove, we had a fireplace, and we had to go out and get wood
and keep the fireplace going. And if it ever went out, then everybody be
cold. And I remember, I was growing up, and my brother went to bed, and
he would go up near fireplace and because he was wet, he'd be smoking.
He'd come back in and he'd be smoking. [Laughter]
[Laughter]
Had running water.
Did you have a toilet in the house?
We had a toilet, but it was on the back.
Outside the house?
on the back porch, we would call it. You had to go out in the cold to get to the bathroom.
It wasn't an outhouse?
No, it was just a porch. No sink to wash hands. And you'd come back into the kitchen, and we had a spigot there, when you first come in the door there was a spigot with a bucket and that's where, we had soap beside of it, and that's where you'd wash your hands.
There was no shower or a tub?
No we used [unclear]
When you were growing up did you have a dictionary in the house?
I don't think so. No.
Did you have an encyclopedia?
Maybe up in years.
Later on.
Later on, we had a dictionary. I don't think we had an encyclopedia until I got maybe to junior high school. We didn't need one back then. Well, we thought we didn't need one. Cause lot of time some of the books had dictionaries in the back and we'd look up our little words and what we needed.
Did you use new books or used books at Northside?
Used books. We always had used books.
Where did they come from?
Came from the white schools.
They were, how they?
When we got our books, the teacher would put "good, bad, or poor condition." A lot of them was like, fair and poor conditions.
So they were in bad condition?
It depends what grade you were in, and how much the other people had used the books. I had forgot about that.
Were there pages missing?
Sometimes, and then you'd have to try to find another book with all the pages. But thinking back, I had forgot about that we had used used books.
Are there any other things that you remember about Northside?
Um, I do remember we had the heating. Sometimes we'd be sitting in there with our coats on cause we'd be cold and the heat was radiator, radiator heat, I remember that.
Sometimes it wouldn't work?
Sometimes it would break down. Or, when it's cold cold, it didn't get
warm enough, you'd have to keep your coat on.
Did she ever tell you how much she made?
You didn't get but ten dollars a week, twenty dollars, if you'd done good. That was a good week. But you had your other bills. And after that, my Dad being gone, wasn't much left over. And my grandmother, she didn't work, she wasn't able. I know when she did work, she done housework. It was like passed down from generation to generation back then. My great-grandmother, she done housework. And then my grandmother, she done housework, plus ironing. She took on ironing to make a little extra money.
Could you make a little more money doing ironing?
A little more money. Cause she'd get paid for housework plus ironing. She'd take in, she'd bring the clothes home and she'd wash them—back then they had the washboards, that's the way she'd have to wash—and Octagon soap on the washboard and the washboard and then rinse them and hang them on the line. And then she would iron them, fold them up, and carry them back. And then she'd get paid, and she'd make some money doing that.
Did the children help with that?
No, we didn't help with that because we might burn it, then cut back on the money.
So you were at Northside from 1955 . . . [unclear]
Oh, first grade, when I was six years old.
What did you remember from then?
That so far back, I don't even remember [unclear]
Were your streets paved here?
No. Didn't start off paved.
Did you have streetlights?
yeah, we had street lights, but streets were not paved till over in the years, then they started over top McDade street all the way down to where I was living, and then the other streets was dirt. It was years and years before they paved the other, went on down because of, they said because of the money.
When did they get paved?
Oh, I was up in age then, I was like maybe about 12, 13, 14 years old then. I remember we used to skate on roller skates and we'd start up top of the hill and then we'd come down and we'd have to stop most of the time at the bottom and go up the hill cause our pavement would run out. So we'd start where it wasn't paved, up the hill.
So you left Northside in 1959, is that right? And you went to Lincoln High School?
Lincoln High School. And I was there maybe two years, let's see, maybe '62.
What do remember about Lincoln High?
Lincoln High! That was a school back then. Everybody couldn't wait to get to Lincoln High School, cause it was well known for the band, they had a good band, and because, as we said, they could cut up. The band was good and also, football, they had a good football team. So Lincoln was known for football, basketball, and the band. So we couldn't, couldn't wait to go to Lincoln High School. So, plus, I couldn't wait, cause I lived near Northside—I could walk to Northside—and when I went to Lincoln, I could ride the bus. So that was something new, something different. So I'd catch the bus and go to Lincoln High School. We looked forward to going to Lincoln High.
What about the teachers there?
They were still strict, as I can remember. Seventh grade, I remember getting hit by a ruler, seventh grade, so that was still going on, back then. Um, let's see. I think they were good teachers. Can't remember a lot about that, but they were good. I remember the work getting hard, cause we leave Northside and went to we call it the "high school," and the work, the classes got harder, but I don't remember changing classes. We'd go to one and that's where we'd be all day?
At Northside?
At Lincoln.
So you'd stay in the same classroom all day?
I think so, far as I can remember. I was in the band, 7th and 8th grade. I had a brother he was in the band, he played the drums.
What did you play?
I played French horn. And I remember Mr. Egerton, he was well known for being a good band teacher. He was the best all around, so if you got in the band, you were doing good. So, I liked the band, always like English, liked Social Studies, and I done pretty good, I thought, at school.
Did you feel your teachers went out of their way to see that you learned?
Uh, yes I think so, they did. Back then, they were concerned more about the students.
How did they show that?
They seen that we brought our homework and went over things in school, I think they took up more time with us in school, back then.
More time than now.
More time than now. Now, you go to school and you get your education—it's alright if you don't, it's alright. But back then they prepared us for our education, and our education, we had this big test once a year and we were supposed to do well on the test so they tried to prepare us so that as black students we wouldn't look bad compared to the whites. So, I think that was the main reason.
Were there other things you remember about your teachers? Did they live in the community?
Yes, they lived in the community. I remember, it's a big house, on McDade Street, teachers lived, they roomed in the house across from where I was living at the time.
A boarding house?
A boarding house, cause I remember two teachers. And I remember being at Northside, two of the teachers roomed at the house, but on the weekends they went home.
So they came from out of the area?
Out of the area. But lived here to teach during the week. So a lot of
things you're bringing up I really had forgotten [unclear]
Do you remember if your parents owned their house, or if they rented?
No, there was no renting back then. Everybody tried to own their home, no matter what kind of work that you were doing, most, especially the black people, tried to own their home.
They had a mortgage they had to pay.
Yes, they had to pay mortgage every month. And a lot of the homes were
pass-me-down, inherited, like the parents would live in there and then
the parents would die and then the children still live there, and then
they owned it. That's how it was back then. So they worked on
Did you feel happy growing up?
I did.
Did you look forward to going to school?
I did. I looked forward to going to school. That was the thing back then, going to school and going to church, those were the 2 things we looked forward to doing.
Did you feel poor?
Sometimes, compared to the other blacks. But we didn't have a whole lot, but some had more than others, depending on what the parents done for the job that the parents done.
Did you feel like had enough to eat?
Well, we always had some food. We never went hungry, but it wasn't the best, like we'd have sometimes buttered biscuits, butter and jelly, breakfast we'd have oatmeal, we didn't have cereal, we had oatmeal. Or sometimes we had fatback meat and eggs and toast, not toast, biscuits was the thing back then. We didn't have a lot of meat, cause meat was expensive back then, but we had enough to get by with. We weren't ever very hungry. Sometimes we'd have beans and weenies, that was a meal. And sodas, didn't have a lot of sodas, we had a lot of water, sometimes sodas was a luxury. Milk, we'd have milk. My Mom, she'd always see we had something to eat, sometimes parents go without to provide for the children, to give to the children.
Did your families share with neighbors?
I do remember where you'd have a garden and then you'd share with your next door neighbor and then somebody didn't have much, you tell them to come by and pick something out of your garden, or you'd pick something and carry it to them. Back then, people shared. Or, meat, they'd have chickens out in the yard. I do remember my grandmother killing a chicken. WE had chicken on Sunday. Through the week you didn't have meat, but on Sunday you'd have fried chicken.
A big meal after church?
After church? Oh yeah, that was Sunday dinner. We'd look forward to gonna have some friend chicken and green beans and stuff out the garden.
Did you family go to church every Sunday?
Every Sunday. Sometimes twice on Sunday. That was the thing for the black people back then, I call our recreation, things to do. Like nowadays people go out to the movies or go out to eat or something. But we would go to morning service, come back home and eat, and then we'd go for an afternoon service. My Mom playing for church, I stayed at church all the time.
Did your Dad go too?
He didn't attend much church. I don't remember him going a lot. By him drinking, he would stay home, or he would go out with his buddies. They call that "going to the bootlegger joint." They sit around drink, talk.
On Sundays?
On Sundays! Yeah.
Do you remember anything more about Lincoln High School? Did you mother
get involved?
PTAs, my Mom, she would always go the PTA meetings. She would keep up with what was going on when I was at Northside and Lincoln High School.
She liked PTA?
Yeah, she liked PTAs. Back then, the parents went to the PTAs so they'd know what, keep up with what's going on in school, how the child is doing. I remember we had open house, where parents would come, and we'd do little projects for open house and parents could come and meet the teachers and ask how your child is doing. You try your best to do good though, you'd be in trouble. Or, didn't have a project and parents want to know, "well where is your work," cause they'd lay our schoolwork out for the parents to see, and then if we didn't do go, then we'd get disciplined. We'd get the switch.
Did your parents talk to you about school, about doing well in school?
Oh yeah. Have to do well in school, because if you don't do good in school, get a good education, you would have to work, you wouldn't get a good job, is what my Mama would say. "You don't want to do cleaning up, or washing and ironing. Want you do better, do a little better."
What about your grandparents, did they talk to you about school?
No, I can't remember them talking about. They didn't talk much about education back then.
But your parents did?
My Mom did. I don't know about the other, but I think most all the children back then tried to do good, make a good impression for the Moms.
Do you remember the principal Mr. McDougle?
Oh yeah, I do remember him. I remember mostly Mr. Peace, the principal of Northside. Mr. McDougal, he was principal of the High School.
What do you remember about Mr. Peace?
I remember all the students used to get nervous when they see him coming, therefore, remembering that, he must have been a strict man [laugh]. A strict principal. You'd hate to get sent to the office because you'd get put on punishment, and he'd always let, everybody would know each other in the black community, and he would know your parents and so he would let them know, he'd get in touch with the parents, send notes home.
Same day?
Same day. He could call them up. So I can't remember too much about the principals, except he was strict and you wouldn't want to get sent to the office.
Mr. McDougal, was he strict too?
I don't think he was strict, no. Everybody had respect for him. Back then, students had respect for principals and teachers.
What about adults in general, did they have respect for adults in general?
I think so.
More so than today?
More so than today. Yeah.
But especially teachers and principals?
If you were a teacher or a principal, or a higher up, you were somebody. The blacks would look up to them.
Did they have any leadership roles in the church, the teachers?
Two principals belonged to the church that I was brought up in, so they
did play an active role and everybody did look up to them, in churches.
I'm trying to think, the principals would
So at the church they talked about the schools?
About the schools. And that's about all I can remember about the principals. I can't remember if they sung in the choir, I can't remember them singing in the choir. I know they would come to services as a family. I do remember that.
So you spent two years at Lincoln High.
Two years.
So that would be 7th and 8th grade.
7th and 8th grade.
And from there you went to —
—to Chapel Hill High School. Junior High School was on this side of the building, High School was on the other side.
So you went to the junior high for a year?
Let's see, 9th grade, yeah, I think that's how it was.
Do you remember the year?
I think it's like 19, 1962, must have been '62, September 62, cause I finished in '65.
Were you the first black student to go to the High School, or had there been other blacks?
No, no blacks. I was among one of the first that went, that integrated the Chapel Hill High School, Chapel Hill Junior High.
Before you went there did you get any orientation during the summer to tell you what it might be like?
No I didn't. We went, as far as I can remember, that was a long time ago, we had orientation just like everybody else. Went to the school, we would, they told all about the school, changing of classes, what we were required of, and that's about it.
Was that during the summer?
Oh no, that was school starting. Yeah they let us know that we were going to be leaving Lincoln High School going to, I just call it, Chapel Hill High School.
Now did you want to do that?
Cause I thought about it, I thought it would be a good thing in one way, in another way, I was scared to death to go. I was very nervous, but different ones, especially my Mama, she was saying "Well, I think you oughta go," because of their education was so much better, that was one thing that was stressed upon. And they were saying that we wouldn't have the same books, they were teaching one thing at Lincoln, another thing at the white schools. And so I said, well, I'll go. I was offered a chance to go, that was the way it was, I was offered a chance. I think so many more, so many other people they had asked, and nobody wanted to go.
They wanted to stay at Lincoln?
They wanted to stay at Lincoln, I guess because Lincoln was an all-black school and the place to be, back then. Lincoln High School. And back then, blacks had their school and whites had their school, and just didn't mix back then. That just wasn't the thing to do, and plus they didn't want to miss out on some of the activities or miss out on being with their friends at Lincoln High School, being with the buddies.
Now you played in the band at Lincoln, weren't you a little young to be
playing in the band?
Not back then, seventh grade band started, band started when you were in 7th grade.
Now you were in the big band?
Big band. But I had this big horn and I was a little person, but that was the place to be, you looked forward to being in the band, you get a chance to play at football games, and you look forward to going, and then you look forward to going to the away games. Cause the band would go play at halftime. You'd go to be seen, that was the thing, being seen in the band. Then also we played for parades and your friends could see you marching down the street in the parade. You felt important, you felt like you were somebody, when you were in the band. So that was one thing to look forward to. Let's see what else. And then you knew other higher up, friends higher up, or people in your community that was in higher up classes. And you looked up to them as your role models.
In school or in general?
In school and in general. You wanted to be like them, cause a lot of them were doing good, making good grades and also some was in the band, some was in other activities at the school and you would say, "when I get up in 9th grade, 10th grade, I'm gonna be like s-and-so." So, use some of the older ones as role models.
How many people were in the band?
Oh, big band. Maybe I'd say at least 50 people.
Did you have special uniforms?
Oh yeah, you had your own uniform.
Who provided the uniforms?
The school did. And we'd raise money and do projects to raise money for your uniform.
Was the PTA involved in that?
Yes. PTA, and also we would sell candy, sell different things to keep the band going, and we'd get them dry-cleaned, I think, as a big group, once or twice a year. So we didn't get them dry-cleaned too often.
so did you play in the band two years?
7th and 8th grade.
Played French horn both years?
French horn. First year, you learning, you don't do too much and think in 8th grade was when we got involved. Well you had the marching band and then you had the concert band.
Did you play in the concert band?
I played in the concert band.
Was there a chorus?
Chorus, I don't remember seeing any chorus until I got to the High School. They call that glee club back then. And then when I got the high school that was the chorus.
So that was the place to be in the band. Got to travel, got to be seen, got to have fun, have a uniform, and you say you felt like somebody.
Felt like somebody.
Was that important to you.
That was important. Back then, it was important to be a classy type person, it give you something to look forward to cause sometimes, we was talking earlier—you poor and you didn't have much— but you try to do the best you can. Didn't have a lot of clothes to change, but what we had we keep that clean and try to look nice.
Did you play in the band at Chapel Hill High?
No, didn't play in the band. I don't think they even had one, didn't have a band. So I felt sort of bad, cause that had been taken away.
Did your minister get involved with your decision to go to the white school?
Yes he did. My minister, Dr. J.R. Manley, everyone knew Reverend Manley at the time, he's like one of the outstanding people in the community and plus he was on the school board at the time, he was the only black person on the school board, and he was for blacks going to Chapel Hill High, to integrate the schools, so he was for it.
So you were one of the first four students to go to Chapel Hill Junior High School?
Yes, one of the first four.
Do you remember your first day?
Oh yes, that's something you never forget.
Can you share it with me?
Well, I got all dressed up so I would look nice, I was thinking I was going to fit in, so I looked nice, because it was like 2 or 3 blocks from where I lived, I walked to school so therefore I missed riding on the school bus so, uh, I walked, I think I went alone, no I think one, might have been my next door neighbor, no I think was alone, I remember I was scared to death though. So I went and found my homeroom class and everybody was looking at me cause I guess I was different. Let's see, what else was there, I was called names and people would shun me, first day, and what else, I felt out of place. But, I just told myself it was gonna get better, and what else was it, that was about it the first day.
Did it get better?
Not much better, cause I was called names, people would see me coming and they would say to their friends "move out the way, move out the way, there come a nigger, nigger's coming." So, could we stop a minute? Well, didn't have any friends, and I was sort of alone, everybody shunned me and I felt lost, didn't know where I was going. And by being in a new school, I didn't have somebody to take me under their wing and say "we supposed to go to this place," or "I help you find where we need to go."
Nobody was helping you?
No.
So there were no role models, like at Lincoln High school, did you have anybody to look up to like that?
No, didn't have any of those and then at lunchtime I sit at the table, nobody wanted to sit over there with me. I had to eat alone, whereas Lincoln you had your little buddies whereas up there I didn't know anybody, I eat by myself. I'd just feel alone, people be looking, whispering, talking, calling me names, and throwing things. It was just a bad experience.
How long did it stay bad like that?
For a while. Until my Mom called some of the white people she knew that was worked with integrating the schools. She called one or two of them and told them how it was and she said, "well, they told me 'I told my daughter . . '" to eat lunch with me or to take up time with me. And after a few days that's what they had started to do. I had one girl, she'd come and eat with me, or sorta spend a little time with me, talk to me.
A white girl?
White girl.
Just one?
Just one. And then maybe later, I don't think the first year wasn't too good
The whole year?
The whole year. They called me names and then shun me in the hallway and then in my classroom I'd be sitting there, we had tables where we had to sit where we had our seats that we would sit in and some of the older ones, maybe some of the boys, I remember the girls didn't do it, they would have spit balls. They would get some paper and roll up, you know how to do spit balls, they'd put it in a rubber band and they'd shoot and they'd hit me with it. Didn't nobody, I'd try to ignore it, then you could see them coming on the floor, or I'd be hit and tell the teacher and lot of times teacher be at the board writing with the back turned and they didn't see. Then after it happened several times I'd go up and tell the teacher and then nobody knew anything about it. So they didn't tell. They didn't tell on each other.
Would you sit by yourself or would you sit with the white students?
No, we had seats, they were lined up, rows, so I didn't sit by myself. AS I got up in higher grades we had biology class, I think back on biology class where, like ninth grade you had PE and you choose partners, play ball with and you be on they team, nobody wanted to be on my, they didn't want me on they team, so I felt left out and alone. And, then the teacher would just put me on somebody's team, and then as time went by and I'd be in biology class, you know you'd get partners to dissect animals and then nobody wanted to be my partner and then finally one girl, Mary Huff, that was her name, she came and said she'd be my partner.
how did you get the strength to handle it, all these things? It sounds like you're pretty much alone, you're hearing all these bad things, nobody wants to be with you except this one girl?
Well, that's just something I had to do, just had to go through it. I don't know, just the help of the Lord, help me get through.
Were you able to talk to your mother or father?
Oh yeah, my mother, my mother was there with me, she helped me through a lot and —
You must have been angry inside
I was
How did you handle that anger?
I'm a person that just keeps things held in, just kept it to myself.
Did you ever feel like taking a swing at someone or calling names back?
Yeah, I was gonna say I did, I tried to defend myself.
How did that work out?
Well, there's only one of me and a whole lot of them [unclear]
So she was a friend to you?
Yeah, that's what you call it.
Were there particular classes of students who bothered you and others who left you alone
I think so, some of the white lower class was brought up to not like black people, or Negroes back then they called them, but the ones like upper class, they might laugh or not say anything, not let it bother them, they wouldn't participate.
But none of them stood up for you?
Not at first, but maybe as time went by, they got used to me being there and seeing me and some of the other girls had started taking up time with me, then they changed. It took a while. But it was a long time before things got good.
When did it get good?
The next year.
When more blacks went to the school?
More blacks.
And you were in 10th grade, at the high school?
At the high school. So by being more blacks I think it got better but we were still called names.
Were there any teachers who went out of their way to help you, or who encouraged you, or saw some of the abuse that you were taking and tried to help you with it?
One man stands out, I was in 11th grade, he encouraged me, helped me along, I guess all the teachers would good, they treated me fairly.
You felt as though they treated you fairly, they would look at you, or call on you if you raised your hand?
No, I was treated fair, but I always felt a little inferior because their teaching, I didn't feel as much as they did, as the white students. So that made me feel bad, and a little inferior to them.
What were your grades like?
Um, not to good to start with, I had some Bs and Cs, not too many A's to start with
But you got some later?
At the high school, I was more like a B-C student
Did you have new books there?
Yeah, I think we did. We had new books, that was the first time I had new books. Even smelled new [laughs], that new smell to it. You'd open the book and the pages didn't fall out, or it hadn't been written in, or it was new, when you opened the book you could hear it crack, it being new.
Are there other things you want to share about your experience there?
Uh, let's see what else. I do remember going to the prom one year.
Was that at the Chapel Hill High School at Franklin street?
Franklin street. I do remember going, and I carried somebody else along, another black person and I got in big trouble then, couldn't' bring in somebody else. That was a no-no.
So what happened then?
Principal was real nice. I got called into the office and put on, forgot the words she used, probation, so I couldn't attend some of the other activities that I wasn't going to attend anyway, like football game or basketball game and that didn't bother me though, but it bothered me because I got called to the office and then I got picked on and made fun of, and I felt bad was teary eyed about that.
Were there black men there at the high school that you could have gone to the prom with?
Nobody else went, that was like 11th grade, nobody cared to go, they had one other black, there was four blacks, me and one other girl, and I had asked somebody cause I couldn't find anybody black at the school that wanted to go and one other black fellow that attended, Eugene Hines—
—did you know Stanley Vickers?
Yeah, I knew Stanley Vickers.
Was he in your class?
No, he was younger.
You say that the first day you went to the junior high school that you were scared.
Oh yeah, I was scared to death. I didn't know what to expect.
Had anyone talked to you of helped you to understand what things would be like and how to handle them?
My Mama did, I'm trying to think, did anybody else, that was with the integration group, they might have talked about how it was gonna be, but I don't really think so.
Were you afraid that you would be beat up or spit on?
Oh yeah, I don't think I ever got spit on, but spit at, but not spit on I don't remember. But it was pretty bad. But it got better when other black people came
Strength in numbers?
Oh yeah, that must be what it was.
Do you think the white students were afraid after you add a certain number of blacks there that there would be fight?
I think that's what it was. They could pick on us few, give us a hard time, but after the next year, everybody else came and I think a lot of the students didn't, I think they still had Lincoln High School if I'm not mistaken, I don't know when they closed Lincoln, but I think that's when a lot of the blacks stopped going to school cause they didn't want to go to school with white people. That was the way I looked at it. Could be so, couldn't be so.
So did you graduate from Chapel Hill High on Franklin school?
I didn't go to the new high school. I finished in '65.
Did your mother take part in the PTA at the new school?
Uh, I don't think so. She might have attended a couple of meetings.
But she didn't keep going? Did she ever share that with you?
I can't remember, but My Mama she was very active when they had integration, you know like walking the picket lines, so me and her was very active, like we would walk the picket lines and go and sit in, but we never got arrested. We were the ones that backed the other protestors?
so that was in 64, 65?
Before then.
Before then?
Oh yeah, back before then.
The movie theater, did you picket the movie theater?
Oh yeah, when integration first started, we were involved.
Were you involved in 1960 when the first sit-ins occurred at the Colonial Drug Store, Big Johns?
Sure was, I was out there watching on the picket line I was walking and they would sit in, well they would sit down in front and make a little circle, they would lock arms and Big John, he had two sons, and they would come to the door and the two sons, they would have baseball bats and they would stand there, they would lock the door. They would see us coming and they would run, lock the door, stand there with baseball bats till the policeman came and they carry the picketers, not the picketers the ones that was sitting in, they would carry them off, put them in the police car and carry them downtown.
Did you ever get taken in a police car?
No.
Did they lift them or drag them?
No, they didn't lift them. By them locking arms they'd have to drag them to get them loose and then put them in the police car.
Did some of your friends get arrested?
Oh yeah. They did, so some of them got arrested and I remember one night we went all the way down to the Town Hall to protest and I remember Me and My Mom we were one of the ones who spend the night up there in the Town Hall, upstairs.
So your Mom was out there with you even though it could of cost her her job? Did her boss ever say an