© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
K-0646, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Charles Adams was born and raised in Cary, North Carolina. His father was Henry Adams, a prominent member of the community who owned a local drugstore and then, later, an appliance store. Adams describes his father's commitment to education and his advocacy of equal opportunities for African American children. Because of his social ideals, Adams' father became a member of the Wake County Board of Education, and, during the 1950s and 1960s, helped to spearhead the integration process in Wake County. Adams describes how his father worked with members of the black community and how he dealt with opposition from certain sectors of the white community. By the early 1960s, school officials had agreed to integrate Wake County schools, using Cary schools to pioneer the process. By that time, Adams had become a teacher and coach at one of the Cary High Schools and had witnessed the integration process at first hand. Adams describes how school officials worked with the school board and with the black community to devise gradual desegregation plans that were intended to facilitate full integration within a few years. Adams notes that the Cary schools were the first to integrate in Wake County (though as he points out, Raleigh schools operated separately from the Wake County schools at that time) and that Cary served as a model for other schools to emulate. According to Adams, the process was generally smooth, although he acknowledges opposition to the implementation of school busing in the early 1970s. Additionally, Adams emphasizes the important role of athletics in the integration process. As the Assistant Director (later the Director) of the North Carolina High School Athletic Association during the 1970s, Adams believed that athletics provided a common ground for black and white students to come together for competition and teamwork. Adams concludes the interview by offering the names of other local people who could offer interesting perspectives on school desegregation in Wake County.
Charles Adams was a teacher and coach in Wake County, North Carolina, during the 1960s before becoming the Assistant Director (and later the Director) of the North Carolina High Schools Athletics Association. In addition, Adams' father was a leader of the effort to desegregate Wake County schools. Consequently, Adams offers an insider's perspective on the process of school desegregation, focusing specifically on Cary, North Carolina, as a pioneer and model for other local schools.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Today is Friday, February 18, 2000. My name is Peggy Van Scoyoc. I am with the Friends of the Page-Walker History Center. I am here today with Mr. Charlie Adams at the North Carolina High School Athletic Association where he works in Chapel Hill. We are here today to talk to Mr. Adams about not only his career but also his parents and their careers. So Mr. Adams, if we could start out with just a general background on your family, your parents and your grandparents. Where they were born, how far back you go in North Carolina.
Okay, let's start on my Dad's side. My Dad was born
in Cary and was raised there and spent his entire life in Cary except
when he went off to school. And his family was originally from Cary. And
if you trace them back far enough, when they came over they came down
from Jamestown, Virginia. But the Adams name has been very prevalent in
North Carolina, in Wake County, in Cary for many generations. On my
Mom's side, she was a Copeland. And the Copeland's
have pretty much a Durham County and Chatham County background. And she
was living in Durham where she was born, right across from the old Duke
University on the east campus, and she has shown me many times the old
rock wall they played on. And they moved to Cary when she was about
eleven years old and actually lived in the Walker Hotel, so this makes
this thing even neater. And I think my Mom and Dad both spent some time
there after they got married. And of course I was born in Cary and lived
there my entire life, went through school one through twelve in what is
now Cary Elementary school, and so our roots and our heritage is deep in
Cary. My Dad ran the Rexall drug store, Adams' Rexall Drugs
until he tired of that and found out that I was not going to be a
pharmacist when I went to
When I got out of college, I was drafted and went into the service, and
when I got out of the service I started a teaching and coaching career
in Laurel, Delaware. My former Principal who was Paul Cooper, came down
to East Carolina when I was finishing up my Master's and
Wow, what a career. That's fantastic. What did you major in in college?
I majored in social studies and physical education. And I taught sociology and economics and problems of democracy in Cary and coached basketball, head basketball, assistant football, umpired the baseball games and started the track meets. We did it all back in those days. We surely did.
From the ground up. That's great. Do you have any siblings?
No, I was an only child. But I felt like I had, I was not underprivileged by being just myself. I thought I had all of Cary as my brothers and sisters. It was such a close community back in those days and, you know, everybody who was born there stayed there. Nobody ever left and once they came in they stayed there. And so you knew everybody and went to school with them. There were people that I went twelve years to school with. Guys and gals. And so, I had a really great family.
That's wonderful, that's great. Now are you married? Do you have children of your own?
Yes, I'm married. I have a daughter in Utah who's a consultant, I have a son in Cary who's a painter. I have a son in South Carolina who's in textiles. And I have a stepson in Cary with Data General.
Oh, fantastic, four children. That's quite a family. And most of them are still around here.
In the immediate area, yes.
That's great. Okay, can we go back a little bit and talk about your father. You did give us some history, an early history on him. If you could talk a little bit more about his career and his involvement with the school board. What that career encompassed and what he got involved in with the school and the school board.
Okay, when he left Cary he went to Trinity Park, which is now Duke
University. And he had a sister who had a drug store in Durham. I think
she was very influential in him going to pharmacy school in
Massachusetts. Then he came back and opened up a drug store in Cary. And
I think his love was always Cary. Nobody ever loved Cary more than he
did. And I think his passion were girls and boys and education and
athletics. I've never known anybody to work longer and harder
at an avocation than he did to try to get things for Cary and get things
for the Cary schools. So at an early age, as a kid, I remember him just
night after night being involved with the local politics and the Cary
Advisory Board. It seemed like he served forever on that. And he just
wanted to make sure that Cary was the best school in Wake County and
they had what they should have. I heard a lot of people over a lot of
years talk about that they had never seen anybody fight for their school
like he did. There was a lady from Garner, Mary Gentry, who was on the
school board at the same time, and I remember her remarking that if
everybody had the passion for their community that Henry Adams had, Wake
County would be the finest school system in the country. But I
don't know that he had all the advantages when he was coming
along. And he wanted every boy and girl in Cary to have better
opportunities and more advantages and a better school system. And so he
worked hard for it. And I think he felt like that
Was that Lucille Evans?
I can't think of her first name. Because there were so many
Evans kids in Cary. That was a big name of a Black family there. And I
had been gone so long. But I did have the first one in Cary, first one
in Wake County and it just, it was never the problem everybody thought
it was going to be. And each year it just got better. And I think today
we can look and see where we did what was right. And I know, I caught
some of the same flack. They were
Who were the people that your father worked with initially on integrating the Cary schools from the White community? Do you recall?
Yes, there were several there that I can remember. There was Keisler,
Clyde Keisler who used to have Kildare Farms. There was W.C. Creel who
was the Commissioner of Labor who happened to be my father-in-law. And
then there was a Green fellow who lived in Morrisville. There was a
Phillips lady who lived down on Park Street. And then the Principal,
Paul Cooper. I think the two of them were the ones that… And
that's one of the things that surprised and pleased me about
Mr. Cooper and I knew what a good man he was. Because he had a South
Carolina background, which would probably have made it even tougher than
the
Did you father work directly with the Black community?
Oh yes. And there was the Evans family, which was a very prominent family there. And I cannot recall the gentleman's name who was Principal of the Black school there in Cary. But he was the man that my Dad had the most confidence in and met night after night with when we were trying to do this, along with the Evans family.
Was that Joe Walters? (It was probably J. Estes Byers.)
I'm not sure. No. But my Dad had a tremendous relationship with the Blacks in Cary. They trusted him as a druggist and a pharmacist and an appliance man. And they believed that what he was telling them was in their best interest and was right and he'd never let them down. And as a result it went a lot smoother because they did trust him. And they thought that he was taking them in the right direction and it was in their best interest and they just believed in him, which made the whole thing a lot easier. Because he had been as a businessman and as a child growing up and all of their families one after the other knew them. A lot of them had worked for him, worked with him and they respected him and they thought he was okay.
Very important. I can understand that many members of the White community would be upset and threatened by integration, but were there a lot of people from the Black community who also fought against it and didn't want it?
No, I think the Black community saw the advantages to it and I think they
realized that, well athletically for an example, we never knew whether
we were better or worse than the Black school but we played in the nice
facilities, we had the nice uniforms and we had all the publicity. The
Raleigh News and Observer, the Raleigh Times. I remember I would play
So it was actually in the Cary schools that the first Black students attended a White school for all of Wake County?
Okay, there were two systems at that time. You had the Raleigh city schools and you had the Wake County schools. They were not one like you have now. And Wake County, I don't know about the Raleigh city schools because we didn't have anything to do, we didn't play them, we didn't have anything to do. But in Wake County, Cary was the first school to officially and formally integrate and had the first Black students.
And was Cary a forerunner for other communities where, was Cary being watched by other communities?
Absolutely. And I remember all the articles in the News and Observer and the Raleigh Times about… and they were both pro and con about Cary getting out front, Cary was integrating first. And then there were those who thought Cary was progressive and then there were those who thought Cary had sold out. But yes, I think the Apex', the Garner's, the Milbrook's, the Fuquay's all over the county were looking at Cary to see what's going to happen over there, they're bringing those Black kids to school. And are they going to have a race riot, or have a war, or are they going to burn down the school? What's going to happen? And then it went so smoothly. And that's what my Dad had said to the Principal. He said, you know, we can't integrate Wake County until somebody's willing to step forward and do it locally. And he said, if I'm trying to integrate Wake County, I can't give it lip service and not do it in my own hometown. And so he felt very strongly that Cary should be the first and Cary could be the smoothest, which it was. And then the rest of the County followed suit.
Wow, that's fantastic.
Yes, and that's another thing I feel good about when I talk
about Cary. Cary was a leader. Cary always has been a leader in Wake
County. They were a leader athletically. You know, they had the first
boarding school, first public school, the first school to integrate. And
those are things that a lot of people don't know. And I lived
two houses from the school all my life and I used to read that plaque up
there, First Public School in North Carolina. And I went off to college
and I was taking an education course, and the professor said,
"where was the first public school in North Carolina?"
And I remember him saying, "Well Adams, that's the
first time you've raised your hand this semester."
And I said, "Well, I live two houses from it." And he
It's a great place to live.
My understanding of that was that my Dad, and Mr. Cooper, and two or three of the local advisory people, and a couple of the Wake County people, and the Evans family, and the principal of the Black school sat down and actually developed a game plan of how many students would come the first year, who they would be, where they would come from and obviously the Black community sent some of their best kids forward. And then each year there were supposed to be a geometric progression of the Black kids coming. So they had a really solid game plan that was overseen by the Wake County Board of Education, the Cary Advisory Board and then the key players in it. And they had decided that "X" number would come the first year, they would see how this worked. Quadruple that the next year and then they hoped by the third year full fledged, which it was. By the time I left there, I'm trying to think, I was there from about '62 to maybe '65 or '66, and each year it got bigger and bigger. I started out with one in my homeroom, and then I had several in sociology the next year, and then the following year I had quite a few. And then I went to Garner the next year to get into administration. So they had a good game plan. They just didn't send the entire Black community over and say, we're integrated. There was a great deal of rhyme and reason given to this by the Black community and the White community. Well planned.
And it paid off.
Yes it did. It was planned so it wouldn't backfire and it wouldn't fail.
A portion of that plan was to create schools that had only one grade in it for a period of time. For example, West Cary became an all ninth grade school. Could you talk about the… why they did that and if it worked the way they intended?
Yes, I think it did. My recollection on that was that they decided that after they did this nominal, or minimal beginning and just a smaller transition, that the goal would be to work towards a separate campus where there would only be one grade and then everybody would go there. And my Dad's thinking was, this would be less of a volatile situation than having a four year high school program and all of a sudden, boom, everybody's dropped in there. And they thought that in the ninth grade that if they could have this one school over at West Cary and all the Black students went there instead of going up here, and all the White students came over here instead of going up there, that that would give them a year to get to know each other in a less volatile situation. And I think it really worked out well because number one, they got to know each other. And they got to play ball together, they got to study together, they got to be in activities together, and it wasn't where the small number of Blacks got lost into a big White high school which it wouldn't big, but it was big at that time compared to the Black. So I think it was a very wise decision to do a one grade experiment. Because I thought it worked well and was a precursor to then all coming into one high school. That made the next three grades much easier because you and I have been together, we've played on the same team, we've studied in the same library, we've ridden on the same bus, but the Blacks didn't feel as threatened because they weren't outnumbered so badly by all the Whites. It was more of an equitable ratio. And I thought it was a really good way to do it. I had not heard of anybody doing that at one time.
It was an unusual solution.
It was. To take and say, we're just going to have one grade for everybody, a one grade school.
Now there were a number of White parents who were very upset when West Cary was first converted to a ninth grade only school, and they actually initiated a law suit.
Yes, I can remember a petition. I can remember a law suit. And I think again, it's the small mindedness of looking at the small picture rather than the big picture. And I knew some of them. I remember when it was going on and they were petitioning the general assembly, and they were petitioning the Town Council. They did not want West Cary to be a one grade school. But I think when the game plan was explained, most people said, well, you know, we don't want to necessarily integrate, but if we're going to, this is a pretty sensible way of trying to do it. And I think sanity had prevailed and most of them were able to look at the big picture and say, here's where we hope to be someday. This single school is a step in getting us up here. So I think more people bought into it than those that were just unhappy about it being shut down and turned into a single grade. And I think again as I experienced it, it was the small minded looking at a lesser versus a big picture and down the road of the wisdom that made sense. Of course, I was prejudiced because I believed very strongly in what my Dad was doing and I was certainly on that side. And at times it really felt like we were really the minority working with the minorities, but as it turned out, I'm not so sure we were. I think there were a lot of good people in Cary who sat back and accepted my Dad's leadership and said, you know, if Henry Adams believes in this and he's leading it, then you know it must be okay. And you don't hear from the good people who are pretty satisfied or will accept it. It's the ones who their comfort zone is being messed with, and that's what this group was.
The Department of Health, Education and Welfare (HEW) obviously was very involved in integration, and they were the accountability arm of the law, if you will. Do you recall how your father needed to work with them? How he did work with them?
I surely do. I remember in our den, in our kitchen meetings being held with Mr. Cooper, the principal, and a couple of the County board members, and my Dad and a couple key players in Cary, Black and White. And they knew they were going to have to address a game plan with them. And I remember them working night after night after night putting this thing together, reviewing it, laying it aside, going off, coming back, picking it up and looking at it again. And then when they submitted this, I remember how delighted they were when they got the word back that the plan was totally acceptable. And that doused some of the fuel in the flame in Cary at that time, because they thought that somebody was going to step in sooner or later and say, this is wrong, this is bad, you can't do it. And they were getting pluses and thumbs up all the way along the line. And when I think it came out of Atlanta that this plan was thoroughly approved and supported, I think then things really started to move.
So the HEW in Atlanta had to bless it before it could be put into practice? So they were being very progressive and open minded in how towns like Cary did it.
Yes, because it was just the beginning and they didn't want to see it fall on it's face. And I remember my Dad, I was sitting there one night watching TV and I was listening to him out of one ear, and he was very cautious in saying to the group, we've got to dot every "i" and cross every "t" because we don't want anything to happen to set us back or to unravel this thing or destroy it. So they were very meticulous in putting together what now would be looked at as, I think, a model plan for integrating schools.
That's amazing. So the HEW did not come in and say, not only are you going to do this but this how you're going to do this?
No. They never had to do that in Cary. And that was the beauty of it. They never got anything from Atlanta. They never got anything from Washington. They were just told, what you're doing is good, we applaud you, proceed. So they were never under any fire or guidelines or ultimatums like many other cities and counties operated under. And even the last few years still under them. So it was voluntary progression.
In 1971, the Holly Springs High School, I believe it was, was closed down. And that began a bussing program. Do you recall how that went?
I was over here then and my Dad and died. And I remember because we had
all the schools in the state and the Black schools were being absorbed
by the White schools and the Black organization, which was the North
Carolina High School Athletic Conference, which was our counterpart in
Rocky Mount, we merged with them in about '72 and took in all
the Black schools in North Carolina. And we caught hell for that too.
And that was the right thing to do. And we knew it was coming and we
knew probably the best way to integrate the schools was through
athletics, because with you and I down there on the line in football, I
don't care if you're Black or White. So
that's what I remember. But I had been gone from Cary for
five years, my Dad was dead and I wasn't involved in local
politics. And my Mom didn't talk that much about it anymore.
She was still teaching then. But I do remember when they shut Holly
Springs down and did the bussing because I know how it affected us here.
We used to have a rule that said, if you go to school, you have to live
in that administrative unit, which meant in Wake County, to go to Cary
you had to live in Cary. Well, then, Judge McMillan came out with this
court ordered bussing. And this did away with that old rule. We could no
longer say you had to… you were
So you're not real aware of how it went or what kind of opposition?
No, because at that time it was going on pretty much all over the state. And there was huge opposition to the bussing because you were taking kinds out of their neighborhood school right across the street and sending them ten miles away, and they would have to get up at 6:00 and they would get home at 5:00. Nobody liked bussing. It destroyed athletics for awhile because you were living here, and you had to play ball over here, and you couldn't go home after school because nobody could get you back over there. And people didn't have any allegiance over here. So bussing created probably as many problems as we've ever had in this state. I don't even know whether a jury would say it worked or it didn't work. I notice now a lot of places going back to the way it used to be. But I think it probably has some pro's and con's. I couldn't speak specifically to Holly Springs.
Can you talk a little bit about athletics in general and how you think it contributed to integration statewide?
I don't think there's any question, I think we
would have been in a third world war without it. I do not think the
schools could have integrated without athletics. Because in athletics in
most cases in this state, it's the single thing that brought
the two races together and made it much smoother. And if you go back and
talk to any superintendent, principal, A.D. or coach during about a five
year block in which we were integrating, they say that athletics is the
thing that brought the two races together, that kept the school open.
Because the kids didn't care
How accepting were the White students to having Black students play with them and take part in athletics in the beginning? Was it tough?
I think in the beginning they didn't know each other, and so therefore it's kind of stand-offish and taking a look and trying to size them up. And then, I think, if they realized they could play and they were good people just we were. And the only thing that I think I remember a lot of was where parents got upset because Sam came here from a Black school and took Johnny's position. And of course, it worked both ways back then. But I think the Blacks enjoyed finally having the opportunity to be able to compete and see who was good. And they fit in very nicely and the Whites, I think, were probably a little more stand-offish, but soon found out that these kids could play and by and large they're pretty good friends and neighbors. Sadly enough, here we are in the twenty-first century and they still segregate themselves. You can go into a school and the Black kids will eat over here and the White kids will eat over here. You get on a bus and the Black kids will sit over here and the White kids here. But in athletics it's put them more together.
That's great. There was a school named for your father. When did that school open? Was he still alive?
No, he fought that.
He did not want it?
No, he did not want it named after him. He did not believe any building should be named after a living person. And there was a move in Cary when they decided to build a school to name it the Henry Adams Elementary, and he said, absolutely not. And then the Wake County Board tried to pass a bill saying that it would be named, and he refused to let them do it, outvoted that. And he said that, one of two things. He really never wanted credit for anything he did. He was one of these guys who liked to work behind the scenes, he liked to work in the back of the drug store or after the store had closed, or in the den, or in the kitchen. He never wanted recognition. He really didn't want people to know that he was taking $300 out of his pocket to give to a kid to send him to camp, or raising $500 out of his drug store to help light the field. He was just a behind-the-scenes player and did not like center stage. And really got adamantly angry over them even talking about naming a school after him and refused to allow them to do it. So they didn't. And then when he died, they did it.
Do you think he'd be happy about that if he could know?
He would be pleased if he could look at the school and say this school is good, or this school is the best school in Cary and one of the best in Wake County. He wouldn't care whether it was named after him or not. That would be totally meaningless to him. He just would want… his question would be not why did you name it after me or who did you name it for, but do the kids have enough paper? Do they have their computers? Do they have any good teachers? Are they getting the core curriculum? He would be very concerned with the academics and the background and the abilities of the teachers and how well they were competing and how they write. That's all he would have cared about.
How do you feel about it?
Oh, I'm proud for him. When I went out to speak at the dedication, I was proud. Because I'm proud of him. I know what he did and I know why he did it. He did it for all the right reasons. And he wasn't a showy man. People still kid about if he showed any emotion it was like sticking up a finger or a smile like you just gave. He was not a demonstrative person and he wasn't a heavy hitter out here, but behind the scenes he could get anything in the world done because people respected him, and they liked him and they believed in him. But he would not want the fanfare and he would not want to be on display. He would divert the attention to somebody else. He'd find a way to put it on a child or a teacher. But yes, I went out there that day and I was very proud for him. And I felt good and my family feels good, and I think my Mom was proud. But to him it would be just another day of work and he would poo poo kind of that they did it. And I don't know whether he would be proud or not. He'd think they should have named it for somebody else. He probably thought it should have been a directional school, or called it Cary Elementary or something.
That's great. Was your mother still alive?
Oh yes. She was still teaching. She was teaching under Carl Mills for, of
gosh, she was seventy-one when she quit teaching. Because they kept
bringing her back. Each year you had to, after a certain age, you had to
request to the county to bring a teacher back. And I think Carl brought
her back six or seven years on that one-year, Mrs. Adams will you teach
one more year? And she finally started losing her eyesight and she told
Carl, she said, "Carl, I can't teach
anymore." And he said, "You're not going to
do this to me." He said, "You're going to
teach as long as I'm Principal." And she said,
"I can't see anymore." She hemorrhaged
behind the retina and had macular degeneration and just went completely
blind the last twenty years of her life. But
She probably had every kid in Cary at one time.
Yes. And this is another neat story. I can remember some of the people who worked for my Dad and worked for her. Blacks who couldn't read, and she taught them to read.
Just quietly, behind the scenes?
Yes, right out at lunch time. They'd go out and sit on the
porch and I used to go through there on my travels, and I'd
stop by. And she'd be on the back porch with the maid who
happened at Fidelity Bank who worked for her, and they'd go
out and have a reading lesson. And this person would be fifty, sixty
years old, couldn't read a letter. And my mother taught quite
a few of them how to read. And that just, oh that got to me every time
I'd go through there and think, somebody can't
read. You know, that's incomprehensible to me that you
can't read. And
Wow, amazing. What was her role in integration?
Supporting him. She had been a teacher. She went to Western Carolina and
N.C. State. And then when I was born she stayed out of school until I
graduated. And she did all the cooking for my Dad's drug
store, you know. She made the potato salad, pimento cheese and chili,
and all of that. And she was big into the Women's Club, and
Eastern Star and the PTA and things like that. Very, very civically
minded. Both of them were. Him was more school, hers was more community.
Then when I got out of school she went back to teaching and taught until
she was seventy-one years old. And her role during that time was to be
the good, supportive wife, but my Mom was very outspoken. Very much
independent, very much probably ahead of her time. I remember coming in
one day from school and there was a note, "I've gone
to Florida for the week. You and your Dad take care of the
house." And she was a very well read, very bright, very
intelligent lady. Very strict disciplinarian. I still hear stories about
kids telling me, but they all loved her. But I think she supported my
Dad, but she had her own itinerary. She was not a housewife. She was out
there and she was doing things in the Garden Club and doing things in
the Women's Club, and Eastern Star and running PTA. She had
her own agenda. She was very supportive of what he was doing. Because
she also felt the same way he did about equal opportunities.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Okay, side two here. Make sure we're working, and I think it's running now. Well, so your family has contributed so much to the development of Cary, to the Town. Your parents and yourself have seen incredible change over the course of all these years. Had the Town really started to grow when your parents were still so involved in the Town?
No, I think the best way to say that is, when I grew up there it was a
Class A school, which was the smallest classification. There were four
classes: 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A. So the 1A's were the really small
schools. And the entire time that I went there it was a Class 1A school
and had not done a lot of changing. The face was still pretty much the
same. When I came back there to teach and coach it was a 2A school. When
I left there after four years it was a 3A school. And when I came here
several years later, it was about the tenth largest school in North
Carolina. And now, as you know, it has been splintered off into Apex,
Athens Drive, Green Hope and you've got about 90,000 people
where we had about 3,000 people. And I can even remember having a pony
in my backyard when I was growing up. And one of the doctor's
sons across the street had one, and we would go to the Cary Elementary
School, and it was a dirt street, and we would race down to the drug
store on our ponies, tie them up and go in the drug store to get
something to drink, and race back up the street. So that's
how "Happy Days" was back then. Of course, you know
how it is today. But my Dad never saw the growth. He would be shocked, I
think, that Cary did what it did. My Mom heard about it, because losing
her eyesight she couldn't see it, and she only heard what
people told her. And I'm probably the one that, first hand
because of growing up there, playing ball there, coaching there, and
still having a lot of involvement in Cary through this program here, I
saw Cary over those years go from a sleepy little suburb of Raleigh
Now your children, did they grow up in Cary?
No, no. We've been in Chapel Hill thirty three years. I was thinking, not a one of them graduated from Cary, all of them, three of them here in Chapel Hill. So we've been over here since 1967. You see, my Dad died in '68, I believe, or '69. He was either sixty nine and died in '68, or he was sixty eight and died in '69. So, it was the opening night of football season. And he had the appliance store and I thought well, I'm going to go to Goldsboro tonight and catch Goldsboro and whoever they played. And I went down to the appliance store and I was going to ask him if he wanted to ride with me. And the guy said, he wasn't feeling well, that he went home to rest. That never happened. So I decided I'd run up the street, to Academy Street, and check on him. And I went and he was on the floor. And I think he'd had a heart attack. And so I picked him up and I put him in the car, and started to Rex Hospital. And I know he had a heart attack right behind Meredith College. And I got him in the hospital and they got him okay. And he died that night. He had an aneurysm and they couldn't find it. It was bleeding on the back side. So he never knew what happened to Cary. He never saw the growth, the progress. He'd be so proud. He'd be incredibly proud. He wore Cary on his sleeve. You know, where you talk about some people wear their religion on their sleeve, he'd talk to anybody about Cary and Cary education and Cary athletics. And no, he missed out on all of that. He'd be shocked.
I'm sure he would be. It's changed a lot. Do you have any other interesting, fun stories to tell about growing up in Cary?
Just that it was the most fun place to grow up any human being could
ever. And there's a group now that we still get back
together, that we all went to school and played ball
That's great that you stayed in touch with them all these years. Was your wife from Cary? Is that where you met her? Were you high school sweethearts?
Yes, she was a cheerleader at Cary when I was playing ball. Yes, we dated my senior year. I'm three years older than she is. I was playing basketball and she was a cheerleader. Her dad was my first Little League coach. I ended up coaching her brother and teaching her brother and sister, and her sister was a cheerleader when I was coaching. So it's funny how our families, I grew up on Academy Street and she was on Keener Street which was about two or three streets over. And we went to the same church. You know, back then everybody did what everybody… the only segregation in Cary was, you either went to the Baptist church or the Methodist church. And then we all saw each other in school. And we all went to school together from the first grade through and the drug store was the focal point. We all were in sports which brought us together. It was just the neatest place in the world to grow up.
It sounds wonderful.
I'm sure I could think of nine million funny stories. But they'd only be funny to me and some of the people. I've often been tempted to say, I'm going to write a book. Then I think, well, who would read the thing anyway.
Oh, a lot of people would. Can you think of any other people that you can recommend for us to interview?
Yes, I recommend Herb Young. Herb Young is really old Cary. Herb was a
great athlete. He played, he was starting here in Carolina when he was
sixteen years old. He's had a storied career as an official.
He's been in athletics and he's just kind of been
"Mr. Cary." Most of the Cary people have died out. One
that would be good if you can interview, but he won't be back
here until April, and that's the guy this
building's named for. He was the coach at Cary when I played,
Simon Terrell. He came to Cary in '52, '53. And
all of us played for him for two years before he left to go to Durham.
He's the one who hired me in '67 and I worked with
him for seventeen years before he retired. He would be a great one to
interview, and he's down in Florida now, and comes back the
last week in April. He lives right across the street. Simon Terrell.
Let's see, who else is still there. James Hurley.
He's one of the old-timers. His daughter was Jane Mosley, who
just died of breast cancer and was in the legislature. But he was an
athlete there and he, yes, and he knows my Mom and Dad really well and
went down that road. He would be a good one. Doug Holleman who lives
down on the corner of Chatham and I don't know what the
street is. Billy Rogers would be excellent. Billy used to have the
restaurant there in Cary, right across from Wolfe's Appliance
Store. He's my cousin, and he has lived there for sixty four
years. So he's probably seen maybe even more than I have.
Because he had sixty four years out there. And he still lives there on
Ralph Drive. He and his wife, Barbara. And she was a
They know everything about everybody.
So Austin would be a good one. I'll tell you another one. Guy Mendenhall. Guy was the athletic director at Cary. And Guy and I played together in the '50's and here it is 2000 and Guy is still there and still substituting. So he is, we called him "Mr. Cary." He knows more about Cary. He's the one that calls us and lets us know who died, who got married, who had children and what's going on. So I'd go Herb Young one, Billy Rogers, maybe Guy Mendenhall, Steve Holleman. Then if you need a couple more, Simon Terrell when he gets back, Preacher Hurley, James Hurley, and maybe Doug Holleman.
Wonderful. Oh, that's great. What a great list.
And if you want a female, Ginny Pegram. Ginny was the first great female basketball player from Cary. We are working with her now to get some memorabilia. She was just fantastic back in the late '40's, early '50's. And was the first Cary lady to ever play professional basketball. She played with all Hanes Hosiery. And has been featured in a couple of films on early female basketball. And she would be a good one. She has been here her entire life, and she's probably… I'm sixty-three, I'd say she's sixty-five. So she would be a good female to interview. Because she has seen it all happen. I'm trying to think of the street. She lives on Maynard Road. Her name is Ginny Morris, she's Ginny Pegram now. She arguably is the best basketball player to ever come out of Cary and play professional, and we're honoring her over here. And she's in the Cary Hall of Fame. So that would be a good one to have a female slant. That's it. Ginny Pegram, and certainly Herb Young, and Billy Rogers who's been in the community as a businessman. They would be three good ones.
Excellent. That's wonderful. Okay, well, can you think of anything else that we haven't touched on.
Yes, you've asked some good questions. You've asked the kind of question that, you know, is not a yes or a no. I was talking to Woody Durham the other day who does the Tarheel sports, and he said, "I've always enjoyed interviewing you because I'll ask you a question," and he said, "some of these coaches, you put the microphone out and they say yes, or they say no." And he said, "You gave me an answer." And I said, "Well, I probably talked too much."
Oh no, no, no. Can't do that.
To an interviewer, I guess it's better to have it come out this way than yes or no.
Definitely.
I think your questions have been really good. They have made it easy to think back and bring it out.
Good. Well, you have just given us the most wonderful, wonderful interview. This information that you've given us today is just invaluable to, not only to the Page-Walker History Center, but also anyone else in the future who may hear this interview or may come across it. We do plan to make this part of the public record. And so it will be out there and available to the public. Anyone who hears this tape is going to benefit more from what you've given us today. So we are so happy.
I used to think I bled green. I used to think that if somebody cut me open that green blood would come out because I love Cary so much growing up there. Having the opportunity to play ball there and come back and coach there, and then all the people I love and family and friends. I'm surprised I ever left there.
But you're not far away.
No, and my wife's mother still lives over there, so we get over there to see her. And her brother lives there and so we get over there. And one child lives there. So, you know, it's not very far.
Just down the road. Well, thank you again so much for everything that you've given us.
You're welcome. I think it's neat what
you're doing. We're doing a lot of this here.
I'll take you up there and show you a little bit of what
we've got going on. And we're trying to
Oh, wonderful. That's a great project.
Yes, we're trying to preserve, you know, we've been in existence since 1913 and we've lost a lot of people that, you know, we should have had interviews on, or we should have done videos on. So we're trying to play catch-up now and have something that people, after you and I are gone, can come in here and see and listen to.
Oh, that's great. Well, good luck on your project.
Thank you. Yes, I have to bring my wife out sometime. She has never been in the Walker Hotel. I've been in there many, many times, but she has never been, so I've got to get her out there and let her see it.
It's been restored beautifully, and the museum is opening in May of 2000, so this year, which hallmarks the history of Cary. So that will be a wonderful thing to see. We'll be having a whole weekend surrounding Heritage Day in Cary, at the hotel.
Well, I wish you well.
Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW