In January, I believe.

Yes, the latter part of January, and not always but usually, the wives, the spouses, came to our house for coffee probably in the morning.

How about activities surrounding the University events like commencement?

Yes, we usually had the commencement speaker and the honorary degree recipients and their families or friends who had come with them for that occasion.

I believe that I remember Norman Cousins. Was he one of the recipients or speakers?

He was a speaker. Norman Cousins was a very interesting person, and a person whom we were happy to get to know just that little bit. There was one amusing incident; it was not amusing to me at the time. When I asked the group what they would like to drinkߞthis was after commencement was over and people were usually thirstyߞwhen I asked him what he would like to drink, he said, "buttermilk." I knew I did not have buttermilk. I never kept buttermilk, but, of course, I ran next door to my dear neighbor Eleanor Carroll. Luckily, Eleanor Carroll had some buttermilk, so Mr. Cousins never knew how my heart sank when he gave that answer. Another occasion I remember well after commencement was when Ralph McGill, who was the editor of the Atlanta Constitution, was the speaker. We had an unexpected shower during the commencement program that evening, and most everyone came in from the exercises damp. Mr. McGill's comment was that at last he had found a use for a mortar board. He said that it had helped him to keep the copy of his speech dry. Everybody was a little damp. I remember when Vermont Royster received an honorary degree. He had a large group of family and friends because he was from Raleigh. They were close enough to come. Those were happy occasions, when we usually had some of the administrative staff or faculty officers who came also. Everyone who received an honorary degree had a friend who accompanied him.

Yes, there's a phrase, "Guide, counselor, and friend," or something. I've forgotten.

And they, of course, always came too.

I remember the evenings with Norman Cousins, simply, I suppose, because I admired him so. It seems that after many of the people left, we ended up in the living room. There were students, so it must have been the President of the student body maybe. He makes the address, I guess, or President of the senior class, and Norman Cousins talking to them. That's etched in my memory.

They were as interested in meeting him as the rest of us were, of course. He was editor of the Saturday Review at that time.

Yes, that's right. He's since gone on to do some interesting work in, I suppose, biomedicine. He's interested in the treatment of the whole person.

At UCLA, right. Another group that came not yearly, but I think more than once, was the Business Foundation, the Business School Foundation.

Your neighbor down here was involved in that.

Yes, Dr. Willard Graham.

Do you remember others, Grace?

Yes, the wives of the North Carolina Pharmaceutical Association Board came for lunch, I remember, once. We also had some other student groups that I have not mentioned. I remember especially the international students, and once when the group, there was a Canadian exchange, which the students had, and those visitors from Canada came once.

I can remember the Toronto students at your house. That had gone out of my mind entirely, but I remember it now.

Other groups I remember were the Hospital Auxiliary, Woman's Club board, Law, Medicine and Pharmacy Student Wives groups. There was a group of British educators and once the State Department asked us to help with a group of Japanese ladies. And I'm sure there are some other groups, Fran, that I have not mentioned.

Well, do you remember the Morehead ladies?

Yes, the Morehead ladies.

Mrs. John Lindsay Morehead, John L's wife.

Yes, and the other members of the Executive Committee of the Morehead Foundation came along with some new prep school representatives.

That's when the Morehead Foundation was, in a sense, wooing the New England prep schools. I remember a luncheon with some of the wives of the headmasters of Groton and Exeter and Andover and how important it was for the University to include the New England prep schools in this program.

Yes, indeed. I'd like to say, Fran, that I know you entertained the Morehead Executive Committee a great deal and also Eleanor Godfrey, Mrs. James Godfrey, entertained them at parties before their meetings.

Yes, I remember going to the Godfrey's house a lot. You see, Fred was on the Central Selection Committee, the final committee before the names were passed to the Trustees, and that's how we got involved with the Moreheads. I remember Mrs. John Lindsay Morehead, Louise Morehead, especially, lovely woman.

Yes, lovely person, and also Mary Morehead, who was Mrs. Hugh Chatham. All of them, Lindsay

Yes, and Jean Morehead, the other younger sister.

Yes, Jean, who is not living now, they were very interesting people, and we always enjoyed so much having Roy and Mae Armstrong along in the early days and then, of course, I knew Mebane and Betsy Pritchett in later years, but that was after Bill was out of South Building.

And there was always "Uncle Mot," Mr. John Motley Morehead himself.

Yes, once we had "Uncle Mot," as we affectionately called him, not to his face, and Mr. John L. Morehead and their wives for a meal in the middle of the day. I cannot tell you now who else came. I know that more than once, we had the Fridays and Mr. and Mrs. Carmichael, and it could well have been that they were present on that occasion.

Billy [Carmichael] was very close to "Uncle Mot." In fact, it was Billy's numerous courtesies to "Uncle Mot" that helped seal the bonds with the Moreheads and the Morehead Foundation. That was a great achievement of his.

We knew Mr. Kenan somewhat. Bill knew him much better, of course, than I did. I do not remember entertaining Mr. Kenan. I don't think he came to Chapel Hill as much.

I don't remember his coming that often. Of course, he had lots of family around here as opposed to Mr. Morehead, who did not.

We also had neighbors, the neighbors came to our house.

Just fun entertaining.

Yes, it was fun once in a while to have that sort of gathering. There was another group, Fran, and I cannot remember the exact name of the group, but they were leaders of the various women's organizations in the state, on the state levelߞthe North Carolina Woman's Club, business and professional women's clubs. I can't tell you all the ones, but I do remember when they had a meeting here in the summer one year. They came down to our house after their meeting.

An important group of women, something like the North Carolina Council of Women or something like that.

Something like that, yes.

Well, Grace, in addition to being the hostess for all these events, there were numerous social obligations that took you and Bill out of your home. How much of that were you all required to do?

We did a great deal of it. There were certain times of the year that were busier with dinners and meetings than other times. October and April were especially busy times, times when we were out many nights in succession, and we have been known to go to meetings.

One would go one way and one would go the other?

Yes, a dinner more then a meeting.

So you would represent Bill and the University one place and he another place. How did this go down with the children?

The children missed us. It was not easy for them. Bill was older; he was in high school and college. I think it was harder for Nancy because she was younger. She was four years younger, but I think they felt that that house was our home. Their friends came. I remember especially when it snowed, and we had one time when the temperature was low for a week following a snow. They went sledding on the Country Club golf course, which was across the street. Our house was headquarters, and they came. Nancy had pajama parties, and one occasion I remember clearly was when President Kennedy was assassinated. Several of Nancy's friends came to our house after school, and we talked about that. They were completely overcome. Really, they didn't know how to take it because they had never had anything like that to happen to them before. There were happy times. Bill brought his dates home and both children had parties. Both of them remember times when we were out on several successive nights, too.

Grace, do you remember football Saturdays when we would assemble all the administrative and many of the faculty wives at the Morehead building?

Those were fun occasions. They were big occasions, but we saw many of the Trustees of the University and their spouses at that time. We saw many friends of the University who came.

They would alternate. They'd have trustees, they'd have legislators, they'd have educators, they'd have different groups, sometimes as many as three and four hundred people for a buffet lunch.

There were a lot of people, and it was fun.

I remember sometimes picking you up because sometimes Fred and Bill would already be on the campus, so we would go in together. Then we'd meet our husbands and come home separately. I remember that you and Bill would greet people, maybe on the landing, maybe at the door, I've forgotten, but other wives were upstairs handing out pie and coffee to, and we were all hatted and gloved.

In those days, we wore gloves and hats.

I remember those particularly well. Were there other athletic events? Did you and Bill follow the basketball team in those days?

We did. We were interested in all sports, baseball as well. Bill enjoyed baseball games before he ever became Chancellor. I have a photograph of Mr. Manley Wade Wellman and Jim Godfrey and Bill sitting in the old Emerson Field in the stands watching a baseball game. We had some of the athletic team members for dinner a few times in our house. Of course, we had student leaders, and we had some of the athletes as well.

Grace, how about town-gown relationships in those days? Did you make any conscious effort to get to know some of the women whose husbands were not in the University?

I do not remember inviting them as a group. We felt we had a very friendly relation. We knew that we knew them well. They came with various groups. For instance, once the Chapel Hill Garden Club decorated our house and had their party at our house. We also opened the house to the public a day or so later. There were many of the women from town who were members of the Chapel Hill Garden Club, and I remember once, when the Chamber of Commerce was being formed that there was a meeting of the men, and there might have been some women involved, but they were forming a Chamber of Commerce, met at our house. We had many friends who were not connected to the University. They came to dinner.

Did you and Ida have any arrangement about who would entertain who or did it just work itself out informally?