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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview L-0040, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Floyd McKissick was born into a prominent black family in North Carolina. The racism he witnessed and experienced during his formative years and early adulthood—including during his tenure in the Army—had a profound impact in shaping his racial consciousness. After World War II, McKissick enrolled at predominantly black North Carolina College (later known as North Carolina Central University), where he discovered that the resources and facilities were inequitable, leading him to picket the North Carolina legislature to improve conditions there. He discusses how and why he decided to integrate the law school at the University of North Carolina, and he describes his three-year legal battle to enroll there. Once enrolled, he faced more battles, including his struggle to eat at the campus dining facility, and his successful effort to integrate the UNC pool. He received support from two whites, Reverend Charles Jones, pastor of the pro-integration Community Church of Chapel Hill, and Anne Queen, leader of the Campus Y. He also forged a friendship with Daniel Pollitt, a law professor and faculty advisor of the student NAACP. McKissick notes that though white students were afraid of being labeled "nigger lover," they began to accept integration relatively quickly. After completion of law school, McKissick advocated for civil rights and took part in Chapel Hill civil rights demonstrations in the early 1960s. He later worked as the director of the Congress of Racial Equality. McKissick argues that UNC could be doing more to integrate the university. Desegregation's success, he argues, requires the desegregation of faculty and staff, not just of the student body.
Civil rights activist Floyd McKissick was the first African American student to enroll in the law school at the University of North Carolina. In this interview, he discusses that integration effort, along with subsequent integration battles he faced as a student and as an advocate for civil rights.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is Bruce Kalk interviewing Mr. Floyd McKissick, May 31, 1989. Mr. McKissick, to begin with why don't we delve into a little bit your family history and a little bit about upbringing if you will.
Well, just what do you want to know about my family history and
upbringing. I was born in Asheville, North Carolina, March 9, 1922, on
Ridge Street. Both of my parents were the sons and daughters,
respectively, of ministers. So consequently I had a very good religious
influence in my life and an excellent social life because in the black
community the church and all of its programs, that was, in a segregated
community, represented the society in which we lived at that time. I had
good parents. My father was Ernest Boice McKissick. He was originally
from Kellton, South Carolina, Union County. The McKissicks had been on
the McKissick plantations down there from slavery all the way on, and
the other McKissicks were president, I think, respectively, of the
University of South Carolina at one time, the other part of the family.
The mother and father met at a Methodist college, Livingston College, in
Salisbury, North Carolina and married, and of course, I am the second
child of four children that they had. My father, at that time, mother
and father finished what was called Normal School. It would be
equivalent to a little more than high school. Because at time high
school didn't go very far, not the twelve grades that you've got now, of
course. But both mother and father worked hard. Asheville, North
Carolina is a tourist town, and my father did hotel work and also worked
for North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company, which was a fledgling
company. He was an agent for North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance
Company. Mother could sew. We had a sign on the house, Seamstress. She
could sew very well and make all kinds of clothes. Made my clothes of
which I was real proud of, one of my first suits. She could sew and she
worked at a department store,
What year were you born, Mr. McKissick?
March 9, 1922.
And you said you had three brothers and sisters?
I have three sisters.
I wanted to ask you a little bit, if I could, about any formative experiences you had growing up in Asheville that particularly linger, any recollections that particularly linger in your mind.
Oh yeah, there are many experiences I had. I had elementary school teachers who taught me all of the basics and I remember all of them basically now by name. I can remember all my school teachers who taught me. I think that teachers were more committed in that day. I think some of the bitter experiences that I had were, that I remember quicker than any other experiences was the fact that I was skating. We had a street on which we skated in Asheville, a very smooth street, South French Broad, at which time I was assigned by my scout master to direct traffic and help the smaller kids. And we were told to get out in an intersection, and the scout master had just placed us in the intersection to keep the smaller kids from coming through the intersection. Some cops came up and said get off the street. We didn't have no business being there. And in trying to explain to them, they proceeded to beat and slap me around a little bit, and I retaliated by throwing a skate.
Were there any other formative experiences before you left Asheville that stick in your mind?
Well, yes, I was a associated with the NAACP, and we had made a request for Paul Roberson to speak at the civic center and we had to go before the City Council to ask for his permission to speak at the civic center in Asheville in the city auditorium. That was denied. There were many problems of segregation in the city which we were regularly fighting every day, as it related to blacks in a southern city where segregation was prevalent. These incidents arose quite frequently. As a child, we had many incidents of my riding on the front of the bus to watch the driver, and then my aunt telling me that I couldn't sit up there. And while she was explaining to me, some big heavy man, weighing about 300 pounds, told her if she couldn't get me up, he was going to pick me up and throw me to the rear of the bus. I then got up and went back to the back of the trolley car. I said bus. It was really a trolley car. Asheville had trolley cars. This was on Montclair trolley car that I remember this. And my aunt picked me up and took me to the back and she just cried as she sat there with me. I sort of got the understanding of what things were all about a little later in life, not then. I can remember other incidents of that type also.
When did you leave Asheville? Was that to go to college?
Yes, I went to college at Morehouse College at Atlanta, Georgia. I went down there in 1939, my first year. And then from there, I think I went to Connecticut for a summer, on a tobacco farm. Worked up there. Then I worked around, during the period of time up until the time I got in the army in '45, I was in and out of school depending upon the amount of money that it took to go school. At that time it didn't take but $325 a year to go to school, but that was a lot of money when it came to working and making it then.
I'd like to, if we could, switch our attention to the background of the desegregation case at UNC. Would you be able to tell me a little bit about the earlier efforts to desegregate UNC prior to your own involvement?
I recall my early involvement in the desegregation at North Carolina. We
wrote and asked for applications right after I came out of the army in
'45 requesting admission. We never received a reply to our first letter
What was the date on your picketing the legislature in the effort to get North Carolina Central accredited?
Don't recall, I think I can find that written down someplace for you. I don't recall. Possibly a year before we filed the suit, because talk was going on that maybe they would let somebody in over there. And some quiet talk never proved to be of any benefit. But we did picket and we've got some pictures and everything of it for you. At any rate, when we brought the suit, before we brought the suit, I was not the first plaintiff. I think I was about the third in line. There was Harold Epps and Glass and there was another person who was in the law suit and ended up. . . . Epps graduated and someone else stepped down from the suit and I became the major plaintiff in the suit after that time. Then after a became the major plaintiff, at the time the case was being called for trial, there were interveners, and the interveners were Jay Kenneth Lee, Harvey Beech, Eugene Lassiter, and possibly four or more others who joined just before the suit started trial in Durham.
Let me interrupt you if I may. What year was McKissick vs. Carmichael initiated, do you recall?
No, I'll have to get the records again on that. I get these dates a little confused now. Used to be that I could remember them all the time. I think that there was a book put out by the student government of North Carolina that has all those dates and figures in it. That would be your best bet on that, the students government of North Carolina, written by Albert Coates. That has it pretty well.
What events in particular prompted you to initiate the suit?
We had attempted to, after we got out of the army, I knew that I was
going into law. And during the time that I was in Atlanta we had written
the University of North Carolina and gotten no reply to asking them. It
was generally felt and there was a feeling in the air that people were
going to be fair and treat you right. You were a returning veteran. And
some schools were letting blacks in that never had before. There were
high quotas, and veterans were getting quotas. So there was a feeling in
North Carolina, North Carolina would do some of these things without
being forced to do it. That feeling was later determined to be a false
feeling, false emotions, that we had. And after I came to the law school
here and I saw.
If I may, how would you compare on the one hand why you selected the University of North Carolina in particular to try to desegregate, and the second part of the question, how the University of North Carolina fit into the sort of overall strategy about desegregation, and what the attitudes of the administration seemed to be.
Well first of all, I had made applications to go to law school to about seven law schools and had been admitted to Cleveland, Western Reserve. I think at that time Fordham Law School, I had been admitted. But each one had given you a time to come, and you would have been out of school a half a year because the list was so long. Howard University had a long list. All the black kids in the country were just about going to Howard, and to get on that list you'd have to wait three years before you could get in school. So it was decided, here's North Carolina right here. We knew that North Carolina Central, the law school there was not comparable to the University of North Carolina. We had been over there and had seen the University of North Carolina and saw the difference. They didn't know what we were doing over there or anything, but we went over to see the difference and we made these comparisons. At that time the NAACP had done some studies, and we were ready for this suit. It was just decided that suits were being brought all over, in many states in the South, at this time to desegregate the law schools, the professional schools. And we decided that we were going to go ahead and crack the law school and crack it now. It was just, you had top students. We could have got in school anywhere. It was just a matter that we were black, and the University, one of the worst things they were doing was not replying to correspondence or just ignoring it or throwing it away, which had occurred for two years in a row. So it was then decided that a suit was the possible way.
Within the strategy of using law suits to desegregate the University, do you remember participating in any discussions about tactics in order to pressure the University to accept black students?
We decided that a law school was going to be the best way. There had
been some people that knew, there were some blacks in the community who
knew some whites over there, and there had been meetings among those
Was he a white man?
Yes, he was a Presbyterian minister, Charles Jones. Yes, he was. I think he's still alive today. And there was another lady, I was trying to think of her name, at the YMCA there that supported those black kids that were going after we came on the campus. It was not a friendly arrival when we got on the campus by any means.
I want to take that up in a moment or two, but I want to finish one matter about the law suit in particular. Did you initiate it in state or federal courts?
It was initiated in federal courts.
And what was the progress of the case through the federal courts.
Progress was slow. Just as courts do today, progress was moving along. I think that it was during my first year of school, getting some of the years straight, my first year of school was 1949-50 school year at North Carolina Central. And the next year was 50-51, and so consequently, it takes three years to go to law school, and the decision came about the same week that I graduated and received my degree from North Carolina Central. You see, I had graduated from North Carolina Central Law School.
But you attended the University of North Carolina thereafter, is that correct?
Correct, correct, I was the plaintiff and Thurgood Marshall was our attorney, who told me at that time to go to the University of North Carolina because my grades, they were questioning the grades of students and they were making many questions, and he said, "I don't believe that you'll have any difficulty over there at all. I believe your grades are straight and I believe that you can make the course," because there were rumors that if anybody came over there, they weren't going to pass noway. They were going to fail them. And he said, "I believe that you can understand it, and you can take the pressure and the stress." That was the reason that I went over, although I had completed by legal requirements at that time. I still went to the University for that summer.
And then you just attended the University of North Carolina for that one summer, is that correct?
That's right, just for that summer.
What was your experience as the first black students, along with the other black students, at the University of North Carolina?
Well, some of the students did not live on the campus. I was one of the
ones that lived on campus in a cubicle up there at Steele Hall, I think.
I was also a working student and I waited tables at a place called the
Barlett House. And working at the Barlett House out there I would work
in the evenings. My
Let me ask you sir, do you recall any other segregated facilities after the technical desegregation of the University? For example, was sitting at the library segregated or anything of that sort?
Never had any trouble sitting at the library. There were some incidents of some of the kids went to the swimming pool to swim and they wouldn't let them in, and I told them this pool was going to get integrated today, and I just went on and jumped into the pool. After I jumped into the pool, I walked on out and nobody said anything to me and I said nothing to anybody else. I said, "It's integrated now." And that was it. No one ever said anything to me about it or anything. I got soaking wet but it was so hot that day that I got dry. But that was about all that occurred.
Do you recall any of the students, faculty, or administration who were supportive besides the people that you mentioned, or people who gave you continued support once you arrived there?
The lady is Anne Queen who was at the Y, who certainly gave us support
the whole time. There were a number of students. Don't forget the
pressure was on many of the white students that would try to treat us
nice, were called "nigger lovers." But there were always a group of
whites there who wanted us there, and who tried to help us out in many
ways. But they were under a great amount of pressure, and some evenings
they would come by and talk to me. When I got there late at night, quite
often there would be somebody to talk to me, so long as no one was
around to harass them, call them a "nigger lover" for their associating
with me. That was one of the major problems that was going on any time
someone would try to befriend you or threat you nice and pick up a book
for you. There would always be a little choir around to
The University of North Carolina has had a reputation as being the center of southern liberalism and yet the story that you've described very much contradicts some of that reputation. To what extent do you think the University lived up to that appellation as the bastion of southern liberalism?
Well, I think you had a man like Frank Porter Graham who expressed himself nationally and there were members on the faculty who had expressed themselves that we knew about. There were always people at the University of North Carolina who disagreed with the policies of segregation even when I went there, before we had arrived. There were people who talked with us, who gave us advice on what to do and how to do it and who was friendly. But the basic, it's a political school and it was a political process that tied up so many of the minds of those who were there. I would like to think that it was primarily political rather than that went to the academic community, I think the academic community, well, I'd say at least fifty percent of the academic community didn't care one way or the other. But I would think that it was basically a political and because it's involved in the politics of North Carolina, it was not going to prove any faster than any other process in the state.
Can you recall any other outstanding recollections about your experiences that summer at the University of North Carolina?
I don't know that I can recall any. I do recall that just before we were getting ready to take exams in the course that I was taking, and it was taught by Professor Voight, who was said to be a German who taught us sales. About a week before, I had been in sales class and had been called upon to speak, answer questions, and I'd always answer pretty correctly. I kept up with my homework even though I was working. And just before we got ready to take the examination, about a week before, one night I came up to my room and a couple of fellows were in the room, and we started talking about sales, and then a couple of more came in. And about the middle of the summer I think the attitudes had changed. There used to be a choir who used to holler "nigger lover." During the summer I think that it was prevalent on a regular basis, but by the end of the summer it had faded down. And then the kids in my class, who came in the room to study with me, said, "You know, we want to study with you because we think that we can each other." They had reached that point. And I became to feel much better. I knew then that I certainly had lost a lot of the inferiority complex that I had previously had.
How would you say you were able to smooth the way for other black students to attend the University?
I think that when those who were first, I was not the only one. Sure, I
was the first one in a sense, but there were others doing this summer
session. This was the only session where there were blacks. With me at
that time I think was Lassiter, taking that class. There was another
class in which another black was in. I think that one, the mess hall,
not the mess hall, it was Lenoir Hall, had received its first black and
then it was over with. I think they have to go through the first black
syndrome. It's a syndrome for white people. Have you ever seen a black
eat. They think all kinds of things. I think all these stereotypes are
thrown out of the window after they undergo their experience with the
first black, being associated with them. So I think that those of us
Do you recall as outstanding influences on you at the University of North Carolina, perhaps a faculty member who had an influence on you?
Having been there only one summer, I think I made a lot of friends around there, faculty members. I think one of the friends that I made was Dan Pollock at the University of North Carolina Law School. His family and my family are tight friends today, Dan Pollock. We were both newly married. We both raised our children. Our children grew up basically together. We were in every organization for the protection or promotion of rights, civil rights, in particular first amendment rights, freedom of speech. Dan and I are the best of friends even right now. We share Christmas parties, weddings, and anniversaries. That's one of the best friends I ever had, I met at the University of North Carolina, was Dan Pollock.
When did full scale, perhaps that's the wrong word, when would you say that the beginning of full term black students coming to UNC took place?
It was after I left. I think the number of students in the 60s that came in increased dramatically, and they only brought in a number of students after they hired blacks to develop a program to bring in more students, into the University of North Carolina. And I think when federal funds became available on a non-discriminatory basic, the University decided that they wanted federal funds, and they decided to recruit more blacks also.
What are your recollections now, looking backward, on the process of desegregation at the University of North Carolina? Certainly, there have been those who have made the claim that it was a great deal longer in coming than the success in McKissick vs. Carmichael.
Well, I think that the University has made progress in many ways. I think it still needs to concentrate on establishing a policy of full integration. It has not established a policy of full integration. I think it's been applying the oil where the squeak was in the wheel. If you don't really holler, nothing is corrected. There has to be pressure brought about before corrections are made. I wish that all of the universities, not only UNC, but Duke as well would decide to get more faculty persons and administration and at all levels of the development and growth of the university. It would be far more meaningful to blacks than just having black students. And I think they need to go out and recruit and bring in far more black students than they do.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
It's been said that the black community in North Carolina was, in many
regards, more accommodating the white power structure, if you will, or
to use
Well, I think North Carolina has always been able to hide, to a great extent, or put forth is what I should say rather than hide, I think they've put forth a public relations image that they are far more progressive than other southern states. But I think that if you look at the record now, you've got far more black elected officials in Alabama and Mississippi and far more legislations to carry out federal programs in Mississippi and Alabama than you have in North Carolina to date. In particular, when it comes to economic development toward blacks, Mississippi has passed some special legislation. And Alabama, even under Governor Wallace, had changed its course and actions towards blacks, and it opened up doors for employment, and both of the states would now compare and exceed the numbers in schools and educational institutions than North Carolina even today.
Have you had any continuing connections or relationships with the University of North Carolina, particularly with the black community at the University of North Carolina?
The Black Student Union has talked to me about every year, and I'm over there at least once a week, and I meet with them and they talk once and a while about the problems at the University of North Carolina. And I belong to the Alumni Association and I keep up with them that way. Other than that there is no effort to tie me to the University of North Carolina. I thought one time I ought to place an application over there to teach now that I'm about ready to retire. See if they would offer me a job. See if they're ready to say that, you know, the time is come and we're going to do it.
Would you be able to connect your early experiences in McKissick vs. Carmichael with your later career as a civil rights activist in the 1960s?
Well, I think I've always been an activist in the civil rights movement. That started from the incident where I was beaten by the cops, I was telling you about, in Asheville, North Carolina. I have been active in demonstrations. I believe in civil disobedience and I believe that if you believe the law is wrong, then you disobey that law and you pay the consequences for it. And I believe that you have to resort to demonstrations where you have the lack of response to requests or lack of communications. There has to be a method of opening the doors. So there's no other method except an outward confrontation, and that confrontation has to be had and has to be had in public in order to bring about change. I still believe that. I still believe that there's a need for direct action in many areas today.
The experience of desegregating the University of North Carolina did not take place at the same time as the experience of desegregating the city of Chapel Hill. Did you play any role in that process at all?
Yes, it was the Congress of Racial Equality, I think James Farmer, who
was the national director of CORE at that time and I was the chairman of
the board of CORE, which was called the National Action Committee. We
both participated in the demonstrations in Chapel Hill. We had a strong
chapter of CORE in Chapel Hill in the city and a strong chapter in
Durham. We both made a demand upon the city of Chapel
I want to end our interview by asking you if you any other recollections or comments about the experience that you had in Chapel Hill or in connection with the University or any parting comments that you have about your feelings now about the University of North Carolina.
I think that I'm associated with the University of North Carolina through the regional planning school. My son went to school over there. My daughter went to undergraduate school at Carolina, and my son went to the School of Planning and got his Master's degree. And I've met a number of the professors over there who were closely associated with me in the development of Soul City. And one or two of the law professors over there that are friends. I see the University as a great thing. I think it's able to do far more than it does though. I has a great amount of power. It doesn't seem to use its power to bring about the changes that can be made, or to tie the town and gown together. On the other hand, there are individuals, and there have always been a number of individuals professors who have always championed the cause of blacks or minorities or the under privileged. And the University still has that spark in it which I love to support whenever I see that those sparks coming in from the students or from the professors over there. Every liberal movement, I think, in the state of North Carolina has been associated—there have been professors from the University of North Carolina associated with it. I'm talking about white professors who have been associated with it. The University could do a lot more than what it's doing though.
Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW