[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

FRANCES HOGAN:

Women's athletics at UNC-CH was set up pretty much like most schools across the country. When I arrived in 1946, UNC had a Women's Athletic Association organized. We had campus-wide elections. We didn't need a treasurer because there was no money. [Laughter] But we did have a president and a vice president and a secretary. And we had to have what we called an "Awards Chairman." The Awards Chairman kept a record of all female students who participated in intramurals and clubs. Points were given for participation. The number of points determined whether an individual won a monogram or whatever the awards were at the time. Also, participation in intramurals and in clubs contributed to the dorm points or the sorority points, and of course back then, winning the Dorm Cup or the Sorority Cup was a very big thing. We held WAA council meetings made up of the elected officers and a representative from each dorm or sorority, and we had somebody representing the town group. The council met twice a month to go over intramural regulations, so that the representatives could go back to their dorms and sororities and give all the information. Later, as the student body grew and the dorms increased, we had two representatives from every dorm and every sorority. It was a very active group. We met, like I said, twice a month. Sometimes we met more often depending on what events were coming up. And we had intramurals in everything. Were you an undergraduate student here?

MARY JO FESTLE:

No. Just a graduate student.

FRANCES HOGAN:

The only sport we did not have in intramurals was field hockey because so few people played, and we considered it dangerous for unskilled players. We had intramurals in badminton, tennis, golf, volleyball, table tennis, swimming, softball, and basketball. We even had intramurals in dance, where the sororities or dorms had to make up dances and present them and they were judged.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So you had plenty of alternatives.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, there were plenty of intramurals. The percentage of participation was extremely high. I don't know whether it was the competitive spirit in trying to win the Dorm Cup and the Sorority Cup, or whether it did afford an outlet for students to have some fun and just some real vigorous activity. We had clubs in a lot of sports. The clubs were designed for the highly skilled player. If you participated in a club in a certain sport, then you could not play intramurals in the same sport. So, we had clubs in basketball, tennis, swimming and on and on. But I know I coached the basketball, field hockey, and the tennis clubs. And I actually coached tennis for twenty-five years. We had to call them clubs rather than varsity teams. We had the craziest regulations back then. Cut that off and let me see if I have. . .

[interruption]

But, here, for instance, this is dated 1970—much later. These were set forth for intercollegiate athletics for women in North Carolina by the advisors of the member schools of the North Carolina Athletic and Recreation Federation for College Women.

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That was a student organization. I can remember being advisor for the North Carolina Athletic and Recreation Federation for College Women, and we were having a big weekend conference here on this campus. I had Harold Meyer speaking at the general session. Somebody knocked on the door while he was speaking to tell me President Kennedy had been shot. All this was going on down there in that little women's gym. [Laughter] I took the message and told the person sitting next to me, and she whispered to the next. You could see the message being passed down the rows, and the news almost disrupted the whole convention.

[interruption]

These are some old books that I've kept on women's athletics, and they were about to be thrown away. It just infuriates me that they don't keep any historical records on women's athletics. Some have never considered women as having any athletics until we became members of the NCAA or until the women's program was placed under the Athletic Department in October, 1974. It makes me mad because we had outstanding athletes as far back as I can remember. We did not have as many because it was frowned on so much for women to be so athletic. It's entirely different now.

But anyway, from 1946 to 1970 there were guidelines. The women's athletic programs had to be organized and directed by women who were trained in the standards of the Division of Girl and Women Sports. The program had to be conducted within their allocated budget. We didn't have a budget. [Laughter] Only full-time undergraduate students were eligible for participation in the program. Scholastic

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eligibility had to be in accordance with the sponsor school's policies, while medical eligibility had to follow DGWS guidelines. Travel distances had to be limited. The length of the sports seasons could not exceed twelve weeks. (They're going sort of back in this direction now. Recently, they've been bringing length of sports seasons and schedules up in the NCAA.) No more that ten to fourteen games could be scheduled in one sport. This was in 1970. And even when we became a charter member of the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women in 1971, which was the first national governing body of intercollegiate athletics for women, the North Carolina Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women had strict rules which were stricter that the national association. The NCAIAW limited us to fifteen contests a season. Didn't matter whether it was basketball, tennis or what. People coming in my office to use my old records say, "Well, gosh, you didn't do anything back then." Or, "You didn't play anybody." Coaches still put in the same hours. We may not have spent as much time with recruiting, but it still took the hours every day to go out there and coach and do what we had to do. We couldn't help the short schedules, etc. because the NCAIAW made the rules. This was back in 1970. Let's see if there's anything different in this file. It's about what I've told you. "Must have amateur status and be a full-time undergraduate student; may not participate as a member of a team for more than four years. The first twelve members of the basketball-volleyball teams may not participate in intramural sport program conducted in the sport.

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The first six members of the tennis team may not participate in intramural tennis tournament. All participants in the intercollegiate athletics must have medical examinations from the University Infirmary." That was a must! And it goes into the maximum length of play and says no team shall participate in more than two intercollegiate events per week. So, we were limited as to how many contests you could have per week. Seasons of sports shall be arranged so that students will not be competing in two intercollegiate sports at the same time.

[interruption]

Before scheduling a home event, we' had to check the use of the gymnasium, pool and other facilities for conflicts. There's just so much to tell you. There were rules on travel. It's just too much.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Before they were called intercollegiate teams, they were clubs, right?

FRANCES HOGAN:

They were clubs. And until we became a charter member of NCAIAW in 1971, we were still pretty much clubs. The difference between a club and a team, even up until in the seventies, was that clubs were more informally organized. In other words, the coach, so to speak, was there. The students would come to practice if they wanted to. There was no, you know, "you have to come." Frequently, a girl would come up and say, "Mrs. Hogan, I can't be there. I've got a date," or something like that. But it really was not that bad. And then as we started what we call "varsity sports," the practices were more organized and students were required to be present. One of

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the biggest changes and differences is the pressure on the coach. I don't care what you say, there's pressure on the athlete too. I don't think they'll ever fire any coaches other than football and basketball, men, so I don't know why coaches feel the pressure. I think if coaches want to stay here, they can stay. Nobody seems to care, really, but the interest is improving. There's been a lot said about soccer, because they're national champions. There's a lot said about any team that is successful. I don't know, but when you think about a total athletic budget of over fifteen million, that's an awful lot of money when you consider the number of student athletes. I often ask myself how do you justify that much money for so few student athletes. When you think of some Athletic Directors making more money than the Chancellors or Presidents, that's baffling to me. I mean, it's probably a good thing I've retired. I am bothered by some things, and I think we are putting too much emphasis on athletics, not only here at the University, but in general all over the country. When you think about a baseball player being paid one million and over, you know, that just boggles my mind.

But when I was appointed director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women in '74, we were still under the supervision of the Department of Physical Education, and Dr. Carl Blyth was chairman of the department. He knew that I'd always been interested and worked with the highly skilled. He appointed me as director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. Chancellor Taylor approved this, and I was given the title of "Director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women." That was in the summer of '74 and I stayed

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on campus all summer doing handbooks for the coaching staff, working on the new AIW rules, because all of that was new. There was just a multitude of stuff to do involving HEW's Title Nine. We had a jillion committees studying Title IV. Anyway, the Women's Athletic Program went under the Department of Athletics in October of '74. Homer Rice was Athletic Director at that time, and I was under his supervision. Finally, right after Christmas and into January, I went to my first AIAW convention. I can't remember where it was even held that year. And on the way, I rode with the lady A.D. from Duke. And I said to her, "When do you do your budget?" I'd been working on mine. She said, "Oh, ours has been in." She said, "We have to turn them in by November." This was in January. I kept asking questions. Nobody had given me any direction. I had never met Homer Rice since being appointed Women's A.D. He had never called me in to talk or do anything. So, when I got back from the convention, I wrote Mr. Rice a letter and asked if we could meet. Finally, at the end of January, it was weeks after I wrote, he consented to meet. We met at the Carolina Inn and had lunch. And he brought along Moyer Smith and Bill Cobey, his assistants. I told them the purpose of my meeting was to go over some things that had come up at the AIAW Convention. I asked about the budget and other concerns. Well, as it turned out, our budget did not work the way it did over at Duke. It was still not due. I guess I was the first woman to be appointed to the faculty athletic committee in 1975-77. I would see Homer Rice at the meetings, but there was never any mention of women's athletics at those

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meetings. The Faculty Athletics Committee were all men and had always been. Finally, after several meetings, Chancellor Taylor asked me a question and I thought I was answering it. He really scared me to death and barked right back, "You're not answering the question," or something. I can't remember. But I was almost trembling. So, when we left that meeting, Homer Rice put his arm around me as we walked out, and he said, "Frances, you're still worrying about the meeting." I said, "I am." I said, "He scared me to death." He said, "Well, when you see the Chancellor looking up at the ceiling and over to the walls, don't say another word." He said, "I've learned since he's done me that way before." Anyway, he tried to make me feel better. And as time went along, you could tell I was being more and more accepted by the committee. The Chancellor and I are now the very best of friends. He and I fish together. If he has a garden problem, he calls. We just couldn't be better friends. When I was inducted into the North Carolina Tennis Hall of Fame, he came over to Greensboro for it. You know, he didn't have to do that. So, I consider him a very good friend. And yet, he scared me to death way back then.

And all kinds of funny things have happened to the two of us since then. I'm just sort of wandering around, you know.

MARY JO FESTLE:

That's all right. Let's see if we can talk about some specifics about the clubs.

FRANCES HOGAN:

All right. The clubs were informally organized in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. We could not travel out of a fifty mile radius.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Why?

FRANCES HOGAN:

That was a departmental rule.

MARY JO FESTLE:

For just women, or for men too?

FRANCES HOGAN:

For just the women. We could play Meredith, St. Mary's, Peace College, State, Duke. Think how many schools are right around here. We didn't play the black schools back then. We did get over to UNC-G. I think we even played Greensboro College, maybe Guilford. You could play only five contests. It was very limited. Finally, it was increased to seven and finally to more.

MARY JO FESTLE:

And how often do you think they practiced a week?

FRANCES HOGAN:

In the early '50s, I would say twice a week. We had so many other duties like running intramurals, officiating, teaching, etc.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Which were every night?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Every night and the afternoons, too. Everything was different. Maybe we had two practices a week, sometimes three. But we never met every day until, say starting back in the late sixties. The last field hockey club I coached, we were playing Meredith College. We played where the Student Union Building is now. That was a first because the baseball diamond was there. The baseball coach agreed that we could use the outfield. We'd been maybe five minutes into the game when the band came out. They just started their practice right out in the middle of our game and marched right through. The Meredith team had to go home and we never finished that game. That is the way it was back then. We had to fight for every little thing. We used to play,

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way back in the forties and early fifties, out in Kenan Stadium, and we weren't allowed to put any lines down on the fields. So, for the striking circle, Mr. "Hutch", who was in charge of Kenan, would staple the circles down for me with rope, and any other markings I had to have were done with rope. And of course, by the end of the game, the players were all caught in the ropes and tripping around. But we had to do everything in Kenan. We couldn't use the field. We had to use the end zones, except for hockey. And it was just a hassle to haul everything up the hill, then get there and the gates would be locked. I can't tell you what I went through. If we had golf out there, it had to be behind the end lines, of course. And you hit out on the field and collected the balls. Archery was out there; golf, softball, field hockey. The women did not have an outdoor facility. Even out there in Kenan the band would take over. And so one day I was fed up with it and I said, "All right." And I told the girls to hit the ball directly in the middle of the band formation. I told everybody to chase the ball. I said, "Goal keeper and all. Everybody chase it." Instruments went everywhere and we made our point. It's just been a battle to practice. Even after my tennis club became more of a team than a club, and we were practicing every day, it was a hassle. I had to use the worst tennis courts on campus. And even then I could hardly use them because the boys would come in the gates and sit around just waiting to get them. So, finally I bought chains and every afternoon when I went out there, I'd chain up every gate, and

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when we finished practice, I'd unlock them. That was the way I had to do.

MARY JO FESTLE:

And you had to do that yourself? Just come up with some way to. . . . You probably bought the chains yourself.

FRANCES HOGAN:

There was no water on the tennis courts. They finally have a water fountain up there now. But the teams struggled. I mean, you'd have your opponents come in for basketball and "Oh, no. We've got to play in this box again?" The other schools called the women's gym "the box," and that's about what it was. The women's gym was not official regulation size for volleyball or basketball.

MARY JO FESTLE:

And so, did you have spectators?

FRANCES HOGAN:

We had them sometimes sitting in the windows. I remember Frank McGuire came down to see the girls play basketball, especially one girl. She was good. Coach McGuire said if she were a boy, he would have signed her up.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Really? Who was that?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Katherine Bolton. And she went on to teach at East Carolina. Very good athlete. And she and I used to compete a lot in badminton and other sports. She saw me not long ago and she said, "You know, I believe you're finally getting old enough and I believe I can beat you."

We've had some very outstanding events on this campus way before we went into the NCAA's. We had the National Collegiate Women's Golf Tournament here.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I think that was 1959.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. And I have all the material on it. The lady who was the director recently died, in March. I told her nephew-in-law,

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"Please, when you go through her files, see if you can locate all the material on the national golf tournament. She was the only one who had it." So, I now have the two notebooks. But the amazing thing is that every detail is here, including the articles that were in "Sports Illustrated."

One of the things you never saw was publicity on women's athletics. You just didn't hear about female athletes. And yet, we had excellent athletes. This is why these records are so rare. There was good coverage in the papers all around, from Winston, Greensboro, Raleigh, Durham and so on.

But I can remember Laura DuPont, who won the National Collegiate Championship in tennis in 1970. It was called the USTA Women's Collegiate Tennis Tournament. Laura was an exceptionally good player, and I knew she had a chance to win. The P.E. Department could not finance Laura's trip to the nationals, held at the University of New Mexico. I made up my mind to go to Homer Rice. I didn't know him at all. This was before I was made director of Women's Intercollegiate Athletics. But he said, "Well, is she any good?" And I said, "Well, I think she can win." "Well, I think we can arrange it." So, I thought, "Gosh, that was pretty easy." So, in a meek way I said, "Well, Mr. Rice, do you think I can go with her?" "I think we can arrange that." And that was all that was said and I went. So, of course back then, the women had always watched every penny. I still do that. Anyway, Laura and I went, and she did win the whole thing. And when they announced her the winner, and I knew the struggle we had been through, I had tears rolling down my

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face. I even got a man who came through here selling equipment to send some tennis dresses for Laura to use. I wanted her to look really nice. So anyway, Laura was given some outfits. And she won the whole thing. Hot as Hades and no trees in sight. When Laura started the final match, she lost her first three games, without a point. All of a sudden I realized the singles net posts were in the wrong positions. I ran down the bleachers and went over to the tournament director and pointed it out. They stopped the match and corrected the net posts. Well, you know, you use the doubles court and then when you play singles, you adjust the doubles court for single. But it was just wrong. And Laura had been trying to go down the sidelines with error after error.

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

FRANCES HOGAN:

Instead of trying to go straight down the line, she started hitting more in the center and cutting down on the angles of return. And all of a sudden, she started winning and she won the whole thing. And when they announced the "University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Laura DuPont," and they went out with this big silver bowl full of red roses. Tears were just running down my face. You know, I just couldn't believe that she had done it. And what a struggle we'd had to get there. So, I thought, "Well, when we get back, they'll really have this written up." Do you know the P.E. Department was so mad, the chairman was, that he would hardly speak to me because I had gone over his head. Before I left for New Mexico, I went over to see Jack Williams in sports information. I left all the information about Laura and where we were going to be. When I returned, there had not been one word in the papers. And I went in there and Mr. Williams said, "Well, I must have lost the information," and he kept going underneath papers on his desk, and he found the material I had left. He had no idea of writing anything. But that's how bad publicity was.

Laura keeps in touch and we still write back and forth. She was a student who didn't talk very much, very hard to get to know. And I don't think she really thought at first that I knew anything about tennis. You know how some students will do?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes.

FRANCES HOGAN:

One day she came and asked, "Mrs. Hogan, do you want to go hit some?" And I thought [inaudible] [Laughter]

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So, I took her out to the tennis club, the Chapel Hill Tennis Club, and we hit for several hours out there and she realized then that I knew what I was doing. And we went to lunch and from then on we were just very good friends. You know, I do think that student athletes want a coach who can do what they're telling them to do. Not always, but I think that it helps to be able to do it. And so, we were just great friends after that. [Laughter]

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, you're a pretty good tennis player.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I was. Now, I wish I'd get out there and get some weight off. But anyway, the next year Laura should have won but she was sick. She beat a nationally ranked girl in the finals in 1970, and she was the first female student athlete to have her portrait hanging in Carmichael. It was a struggle to get her picture in Carmichael. Now there are many female athletes on the walls in Carmichael.

MARY JO FESTLE:

As you said, there were some great athletes here.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Great athletes. And I tried to provide tennis experiences. I can't remember the starting date. I'd have to look in those notebooks. I ran twenty state championships on this campus during the '50s, '60s, and '70s. Now, this sounds ridiculous, but they were well run. They were scheduled at a time when we could get the courts, even the varsity courts, which was one day once a year. The varsity courts were down there where the Paul Green Theater is now. But anyway, I started the tournament because we had so many good tennis players here on campus. And I invited all the colleges in the state of North

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Carolina and it was a one day event. And the reason it had to be, women were not able to get out of classes for athletic events and neither could the coaches, who were all teachers, miss teaching their classes. So anyway, I started a modified tournament in which a champion was declared in singles and in doubles. And if you played doubles, you could not play singles. Each school entered their very best (two) singles and their best doubles team. It involved only four players from each school, in order to run it off in one day. It was modified to the extent that in the first rounds they played like five out of seven games. No sets, just five out of seven games. And this went on until the semi-finals, and then regular matches were played. I knew an awful lot about all the players, so I could always get the tournament set up and the seedings arranged. It was just an outstanding event. We even had refreshments. Everything in women's athletics had to be sort of a social. So refreshments were served always on the courts, and there was a little place set up where they could get sandwiches, crackers, drinks, and stuff. And we furnished all the tennis balls back then. Now where the money came from, I don't know. I had name tags, real cute, different every year. It was a really nice event. And we had linesmen, ball boys. From one of those tournaments, I did a film on officiating to show at the state NCAHPERD DGWS Convention. Finally, when we became a charter member of AIAW, things changed. The last couple of years I coached tennis, I ran a regular state tournament over a two day period. I'd have to look all that up. But I even had it sanctioned by the United

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States Tennis Association, but up to that point I couldn't because we were not playing regulation matches, even though we declared a state champion in singles and a state collegiate champion doubles team. It still meant the same thing to the players, you know. We had such great times back then and I think that we had more fun, actually.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Really? Let's talk about the importance of the social aspect.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, just go back to that hockey game where the Meredith team had to leave. I said, "Well, we can go down to the women's gym and have some refreshments." They all went down into the bottom room in the women's gym, three flights down. There were little tables and we had cokes and cookies. We did that after every event whether it was basketball, tennis, field hockey; didn't matter. You went down there and you were supposed to meet all the other girls, talk to them, get to know girls from other schools and so on. But going back to that tennis day thing, and we had to call it a "Tennis Day" because it was done in one day. It was not really like a play day. This was a more competitive thing. It was highly competitive.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, were you sort of fudging the rules in that way? I mean, having a "Tennis Day," yet making it very competitive and having a champion?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I thought it was a very unique idea. I don't know of any school that has ever done that. I don't know any community that's done that. I thought I was pretty smart to think about it. [Laughter]

MARY JO FESTLE:

I think so, too.

FRANCES HOGAN:

And the coaches loved it. And we would have as many as nineteen or more schools here, so you can imagine the crowd.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes, that's quite some organizing.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. But all the staff in the women's P.E. Department helped. It was fun. And the funny thing was we always had excellent weather. There was one time when we didn't, and I had a picture in here for years. I don't know what happened to it. But it showed everybody mopping the courts. And we still played off all the matches.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I think the idea of the social stuff afterward is such a nice idea. Did it work out well? I mean, was it hard to compete with people and then be nice to them afterward?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I don't think so. No, not at all. No.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Were the athletes just as competitive?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. I think they were competitive in a nicer way. It's just like now, I don't seem to enjoy tennis like I once did, because of the viciousness or the tantrums or all that mess. I just can't stand all that. And it used to be that you would say, "Well, it's out. I'm sorry." [Laughter] Or, if it was close to a line, I always said, "Good shot." And yet, I knew it was out, you know. But that's the difference. That's like I had Jane Preyor, just recently resigned tennis coach at Duke, on my tennis team. Excellent player. In fact, she and her partner reached the semi-finals at the National AAIW Tournament in 1976, and they won the Southern Region II, of AIAW. UNC's tennis team also won the whole Southern Collegiate Tournament in 1976. Jane

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graduated in '76. She was an excellent student, great attitude, very considerate; just the ideal type you want on a team. Her sister, who was here a few years earlier, was also on my tennis team and a good player. Not as good as Jane, but she was so nice. One girl on my team, from Charlotte, came up to me and she said, "Is that girl for real?" You know, it was just the way the Preyors were brought up. They were super people. And I can remember taking Mary Norris Preyor on a trip to Mary Baldwin with Laura DuPont and the others on the team, but I made Mary Norris share the bed with Laura. Back then you had to jam everybody together and use one room, practically. And so, she was to sleep with Laura DuPont. Well, that scared her to death and she just froze and she was scared to breathe afraid she would upset Laura. So, I found her the next day in the bathtub and that's where she slept. Her mother called to see how we were doing up there and I heard Mary Norris say, "We're doing great, Mom. Guess what? I had to sleep with Laura DuPont last night." And her mother said, "Well, Mary Norris, that's just great. That's about as close to fame as you're going to get." [Laughter] But you know, it was just that we had some great trips and great fun. I had some fine girls in tennis, really. Also, I ran the AIAW Region II tennis tournament here, which involved five states. And all of this was after '74. My husband said, "Well, I hope you tell them that back then you worked ten times harder than they work now." And that's the truth. I really believe that.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, let's talk about a typical day of yours. Let's say in the fifties or sixties.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, let me just say this. When I started as Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, I was paid. . . . Well, first of all, no women coaches were paid until '73, '74. And it didn't matter what you were coaching, you were paid one thousand dollars. So, if you did tennis, a thousand. Basketball, a thousand, and so on. It didn't matter the length of your season or how long you worked or who did what. You were paid the same amount. And I was paid three thousand dollars as Director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. And I gave up my vacations, worked all summer on handbooks and stuff. You never had a vacation like Christmas or anything like that, because you had your conventions at that time. But I did that until, let's see, I stopped coaching in '76. I said when Jane Preyor graduated, I was going to stop. The P.E. Department still didn't have a lot of money to hire coaches. And so, Carl Blyth said, "Let's hire some local people." And we did that for tennis and for women's golf. But when I stopped the tennis, they decided to leave the one thousand on my salary. So, from '76 until '78 or '79 I made four thousand dollars as Director of Women's Intercollegiate Athletics. I was still teaching, having to teach, so I was getting a small teaching salary. Finally I was made full-time athletics. I guess it was in '78 or '79. And then in 1980, John Swofford became Athletic Director when Bill Cobey resigned. Everywhere I went, people couldn't understand why we had two directors. So, I mentioned it to John Swofford and I said, "I really think you're the Director of Athletics and that I should be made an associate athletic director." And that's what we did

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rather than having two directors. I liked the AIAW a lot. I liked some of their rules. Of course, we were not allowed by AIAW to give scholarships until '74, and the first scholarship was given to a tennis player who I knew nothing about. I had no say in that.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, you had nothing to do with it?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No. And she was not as good as some of the others on my team, but somehow they all got along and it worked out. But I think getting into scholarships creates a lot of other problems.

MARY JO FESTLE:

About recruiting and things?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. I've worked and given a lot of time to this University. My last year, my salary was $38,000. I averaged a thousand a year because I worked for thirty-nine years at UNC. [Laughter] I think it's terrible, but anyway, I've been happy. The main thing is whether you enjoy it. You see, I finally, after seventeen years or so of running the women's intramural program, asked to be relieved because it didn't count on my teaching load, and I just had so much. They gave it to a new staff member who had had no experience. Nice person. And they immediately counted it as half her teaching load. Plus, she also had paid officials to do the games at night.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Whereas, you had been doing it yourself?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. Other staff members helped. So, a lot of it, I guess, was my fault because I didn't speak up, but I was just that way.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, in the early days, you had a full-time teaching load.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, really until 1978. In 1974 I continued teaching full-time. I started at eight o'clock. Finished at three o'clock. I taught just about every hour. Rushed over to South Building to do my General College advising. Stayed there an hour or so and then rushed to the tennis courts and coached until dark. So, I never really had any time.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I can't imagine. That's amazing.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, it is. I couldn't do it now. I mean, I look back sometimes and think, "Gosh, how did I do that?"

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did you ever see your family?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. My husband was there always at night when I came down here for intramurals. We were fortunate. We had the nicest maid who took such good care of my children, and it wasn't always such a full schedule when they were little. My schedule became heavier and heavier. The intramurals were taken care of because my husband was always home. Anyway, it just worked out. My children were grown when my schedule became so hectic. And gone.

I haven't helped you a bit.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes, you have. You'd be surprised.

FRANCES HOGAN:

But you know, there are so many funny tales about athletics. We tried back in the forties and fifties and so on, to be very professional about officiating games. You never saw any of us dressed without a navy skirt and a white shirt. And even back then, we required the intramural participants to wear a gym suit. They all had to come to play looking right. I just think it's amazing the way things have changed. I can remember that first year after 1974 when I worked on the women's athletic

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budget, the budget had been something like. . . . I don't remember whether it was seven thousand something the year before. Maybe it was $2,000 something. Anyway, it was very little. I remember the hockey team received fifty dollars. The tennis team got a little more. I think we had a hundred or maybe a little more. The women's tennis team was the first women's team to start going out of the state. We had a trip to Florida State; played in a tournament there. And we'd go to Mary Baldwin. I mentioned that a few minutes ago. I think that's why tennis received a little more. But the first year, after I was made Director of Women's Intercollegiates, when I did the budget, I asked for forty-nine thousand. I thought, "Well, they're going to fire me." I don't know what the women's budget is now. You could find all that out if you need to.

MARY JO FESTLE:

You mentioned earlier before we were talking on tape that you said that you felt sorry for the highly skilled girls.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Back in the '40s, '50s, and '60s I did because they didn't have many competitive opportunities. And so the whole idea, like with the Tennis Day, was to set up situations for them. Back then, I had girls who had been on the Junior Wightman Cup team. I had the tennis champion from virginia. I had many good players. The whole club may have not been as strong. I mean, there was a big difference between the number one player and the last player. And I didn't cut anybody. I'd have eighty or more people trying out for the tennis club. And we had a JV club. I was trying to give opportunities to as many as I could.

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Angela Lumpkin was assigned to help me with tennis because there were so many. She's now over at North Carolina State. Anyway.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Were you involved in the Division of Girls' and Women's sports? I guess in the fifties, that was. . .

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. We all were, really. We all were and we certainly tried to abide by all of their guidelines.

MARY JO FESTLE:

How did you feel about the guidelines?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, back then, that was all I knew, you know. That's what we had preached to us in school and college. I came from a high school that had an excellent program. Even down in South Carolina we had field hockey which was unusual. There was not a sport we didn't have. And yet, we could not play outside of that high school unless it was a play day type thing. If you were in the senior class, there were maybe four field hockey color teams out of that one class, so you played color games until you got down to the last class games. And we just had a terrific time.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, you yourself played tennis and field hockey?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, I played every sport and played club hockey. I guess I played fifteen years of field hockey. And I played tournament tennis since I was a little girl. And we didn't have divisions like we do now, so if you were thirteen you went and played in the tournament. You didn't have age divisions. [phone rings] It's not mine but it's ringing.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did you do track and field?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Track and field and gymnastics were two that I did not do that much of. I played a lot of golf, a lot of tennis, a lot of basketball, a lot of field hockey. Of all the team sports,

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field hockey was my favorite. In fact, I had all these teeth knocked out from it in high school. And my mother, when I went away to college, the first letter I received. "Now, don't put your foot on the hockey field." And I'd already been out there playing. [Laughter] Things were easy for me. I was blessed, I guess, with natural ability.

MARY JO FESTLE:

[inaudible] you said your mother didn't want you to get any more teeth knocked out.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, she was so dainty and pretty and cute; not at all like me. And then I had two brothers; they are both dead now. And my father was very athletic, so he understood. I mean, I played all the time. There wasn't anything that I didn't try.

MARY JO FESTLE:

They didn't try to stop you?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, no. Mother sent me to music lessons and all that, and then finally she gave up. [Laughter]

[TAPE 2, SIDE A]

MARY JO FESTLE:

Basically, you didn't use any facilities in Woollen or the intramural fields?

FRANCES HOGAN:

We weren't allowed. We couldn't go down and use the racquetball courts until Title IX came along. Title IX started the change in facilities. The University had a grievance committee. You may check this out for your report. But one of the first grievances was a female student complaining about the locker space in the Women's Gym. We had like five people to a locker. And so, I happened to be appointed to serve on the Grievance Committee along with Jim Cansler and Lillian Lehman. I can't remember the others on it, but the chairman of that committee brought us all over to Woollen Gym and we had a tour. This was before Fetzer was built. We had a tour and they were appalled at what they saw in the Women's Gym as compared to what they saw in the men's. And right away, some of the space in the Men's Gym was converted into women's locker space. As I've said, it's been a battle. The women's gym was designed for very few women students. I think it was something like two hundred students. Anyway, it was a small number. That figure could be given to you by the people over in the P.E. Department. When we were trying to raise the money to build Fetzer, I went out making speeches trying to get the bond passed. All of us did. Fetzer originally was to be a facility for females. And finally the idea was changed. I don't remember now exactly why it was changed. They thought they could get the bond through better if it was not called a female facility. Anyway, it passed. Of

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course, it's just amazing how little the women ever got into Woollen Gym. Never in the '40s, '50s, '60s. Finally we started having badminton classes in Woollen and occasionally other classes. I'd say one of the biggest things is how the sports budgets have changed, the facilities have changed. You have special coaches now for the women's teams. The coaches are not having to do a million other things.

MARY JO FESTLE:

They don't teach, do they?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No. A few of them did when they were not full-time athletics. Now everybody's full-time athletics, except the fencing coach.

Anyway, you know all the changes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Let's go back to you a little bit and how you ended up getting into physical education yourself. You must have really loved sports.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, I just knew that was what I was going to do when I was a little girl. And I was influenced by, not an aunt, but I called her Aunt Cilla. Her brother was married to my father's sister. So, I just knew her real well, and she ran a camp in the summers. She had finished at Sargent's School in physical education, and she was one of the leaders there in Sumter, South Carolina in physical education. She later became mayor. That's how influential she was. The high school program was excellent with excellent equipment and facilities. In Sumter, the women went to a girl's high school and the men went to a boys, so we were separated by blocks. The only way we could play basketball was on the stage in the auditorium, and it was a frequent thing for somebody to be playing and end up in the band pit.

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[Laughter] I mean, just disappear off the stage. But we had fun.

MARY JO FESTLE:

But you made do.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. We made do and had a great time. But I never questioned what I was going to do. I did think about going into medicine at one time and I was going to Wellesley. And then when I found out I had to have so many foreign languages, without saying a word, I changed my mind.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Really?

FRANCES HOGAN:

And my oldest brother was killed in World War II. And my youngest brother was badly wounded. But when he came back, he did not go back to the Citadel. He came here. And Bob Fetzer was a very good friend of my father's. And his brother, Bill Fetzer, had coached my father at Davidson College. Anyway, my brother Dick, who was here in school, was approached by Bob Fetzer to come out for track. Mr. Fetzer was the track coach. Dick came to me one day and he said, "Frances, I just don't see the point in running around just to be running around." But he did make the basketball team at UNC. Well, anyway, he told Bob Fetzer that I was finishing up at the University of Iowa and he said, "You know, I believe Frances would like to come here." Do you know that I was hired? Bob Fetzer and Ollie Cornwell discussed it, and Bob Fetzer said, "Well, any daughter of "Buck" Burns has to be all right." They never asked me for any credentials. Can you believe that I was hired? They would no more do that now.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Sight unseen.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Sight unseen. They didn't know whether I'd passed or failed or gotten a degree or what.

MARY JO FESTLE:

That's amazing.

FRANCES HOGAN:

And I had no idea of coming here because they had offered me a real good job to stay at the University of Iowa. But with the war, and all that my mother and father had been through with both brothers missing, I came back. And I guess I'm glad I did.

MARY JO FESTLE:

This was a Master's degree you were getting in Iowa?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Right. And I taught full-time there two years while I was getting it. And I taught one year at Winthrop before I went out there.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Winthrop's where you got your undergraduate degree?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. I don't know whether you need any of that.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Oh, I would love that. Sumter, South Carolina was [inaudible].

FRANCES HOGAN:

And you know, every time Chancellor Taylor sees me he says, "It is S-U-M-T. . . ." See, he was spelling it S-U-M-P. So, I had to get after him.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So what was the job description you were hired for here?

FRANCES HOGAN:

As an instructor of physical education. And like I told you, there were so few women students back then. And when I got here I was never so miserable. I thought it was the most boring place because at Iowa during the war, we were on a very fast program and you were covering like three semesters in two. I started teaching out there at seven in the morning and I mean,

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I had to walk through blizzards and everything to get there, and my first class to teach was a swimming class. It was an all day thing out there and we worked so hard and then to come here in those first few years, I just felt like I wasn't doing anything because we had so few women students. So you didn't have a whole lot of classes. I spent an awful lot of time playing tennis up there with the men's tennis team and doing stuff like that.

MARY JO FESTLE:

But then they got you involved in other things pretty quickly?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I did the intramurals back then. But I was so used to such a full schedule at Iowa. But we've had some good times here and I've enjoyed it. If I had to do it all over, I'd do it the same way. But I would speak up a little more. The difference that I see now is that we didn't wait for people to tell us. You know, now if they do something extra, beyond what they're paid to do, "Well, what am I going to get if I do that?" And there's a big difference. Plus, they'll speak up more now. You know, they question salaries and they question loads and budgets and so on and you just accepted back then, particularly if you were a woman.

MARY JO FESTLE:

You were just trying to do what needed to be done.

FRANCES HOGAN:

And I'm sure the same thing that happened to the women here probably happened all across the country.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I think that that's probably true.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I don't deny that. Unless you were in an all girls' school or something like that.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Can I ask you something that I'm interested in in my own research?

FRANCES HOGAN:

By the way, here is a thesis recently completed on the history of women's athletics at UNC.

MARY JO FESTLE:

You know, I was just reading that in the North Carolina collection.

FRANCES HOGAN:

And it is so wrong.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Is it?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, I was furious when I received this copy. I went over to the P.E. Department and went through this page by page with Dr. Billing. They had a committee. The chairman was getting ready to leave to go to North Carolina State. The graduate student who did this waited too long to get started and so they were really rushed. They had nobody on the committee who knew enough about women's athletics. Dr. Billing realized it. In fact, Ron Hyatt, who was on the committee said, "You know, we deliberated a long time whether to let that go through." Well, if they felt that way, why did they let it? So then when I went through it with Dr. Billing, he called the graduate school and told them that there were many mistakes. That the thesis was not accurate. And he was originally going to insert a page in the front of every copy over in the library or wherever they put them to indicate that it was not accurate. He said the dean from the graduate school called and said, "Well, most theses have mistakes," and let it go. So, he hasn't put anything in it to indicate that it's not right. But it is not right. I told him it was a disgrace. In the first place, it's so poorly done and

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there are just so many errors. She has titles wrong about people. Even the people on the committee should have caught some of the errors. Anyway, she has it wrong about Laura DuPont, that she didn't represent the University. Well, Laura did. She couldn't have gone. You had to be on a school team to even go.

Well, I'll give you an example of how things have changed now. We had the National Women's Golf Championship on campus in 1959. Golf is the oldest intercollegiate sport with a national championship for women, started in 1940. Did you know that?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Because golf was considered a ladylike sport. Back in '59, we had to house the participants on campus. You couldn't do what they're doing now. And there were real specific rules about conducting the tournament. We housed them in the Institute of Government. It worked out really nice.

MARY JO FESTLE:

What other sports were considered ladylike?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I know that golf had the first national championship for women. I think your roughest sport is basketball. I've seen real rough looking softball teams. But the nature of the sport plays a role. I haven't noticed that this year. The softball team looks good, and they look like they are really fine girls. Actually, most all the female athletes are nice—tennis, gymnastics, volleyball, fencing, track.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did you worry yourself at all about being ladylike, or you just wanted to play?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I just never thought about anything like that. I was a tom-boy, though. I'll admit that. And the boys picked me, you

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know, if they chose up teams, I'd be one of the first picked. They were sort of scared of me.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I'd love to borrow it and take a look and see [inaudible].

FRANCES HOGAN:

Go through that and see if it can help you any. You don't want to keep that, I'm sure.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I'd love to. Can I make a copy?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No, I have a copy. But it's just not very well done and it's the only one I could find.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Let me ask you one final question and maybe we can talk about whether we can talk another time after I've listened to what I've gotten.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Okay. I don't know how you're going to use that. Here's something. "The Women's Gym was the hub of women's athletics from '42 until the late sixties. Until then, it was the only indoor athletic facility available to women students except for Bowman Gray pool. The building accommodated all women's indoor physical education classes and intramurals." We had everything there under the supervision of the Physical Education Department. HEW's Title Nine, the students' complaint of locker room space to the grievance committee, the increase in female enrollment, and the completion of Fetzer Gymnasium in 1981 have all been contributing factors to the many changes that have occurred in the facilities for women. The Women's Gym was built to accommodate two hundred women students"—you see, this is accurate—"by the U.S. Navy in 1942. At the time, female enrollment was seven hundred twenty-eight. The gym has been quiet, almost vacant, since the completion of Fetzer.

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Occasionally, there's the sound of music from physical education dance and aerobic classes and the only noise is the thunderous, continuous pounding of the diving board from Bowman Gray pool vibrating to the offices above." I used to sit above the diving board in my office and that board would bounce me numb. "The Women's Gym is incredibly hot. It is probably the hottest, most humid building on campus. Visitors frequently comment, "How do you stand the heat?" The building is difficult to locate because it is neatly tucked behind Bowman Gray pool with zero exposure." We had a lot of trouble with that. Particularly when we got into athletics and prospects, and recruits couldn't find the place. "It was best known probably in the forties, fifties, sixties when hundreds of children every summer participated in the children's swimming program." And then it goes on. This is too much to read, but I've got, "The future of the Women's Gym is unknown." This was in tribute to that building. Nothing was ever said and I put, "Many thanks to a building that served the women well beyond expectations." Field hockey is an old sport at UNC. In the forties, enthusiasm and excitement for the game was as intense as now. Joe Jones, writer for the Chapel Hill paper, wrote several articles about the field hockey club then. One was about how, "The football players took great delight sitting in Kenan Stadium and heckling the women as they played." That was true. "The hockey coach," me, "took about all she could take. She approached the football players and said, ‘Listen you fellows, this isn't a sissy game. There are no substitutions and no time outs like in football. It's continuous running for

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thirty-five minute halves. Would you like to come on out and try to play with us?’ And so after that, there was no heckling. The football players began to understand the game and they became the best supporters of field hockey. Kenan Stadium was once the outdoor facility for female students at UNC. Bob Fetzer, Athletic Director, and head football coach, Carl Snavely gave permission." This is all about some things that are just funny. Anyway, we were always worrying about archery arrows and golf balls, you know, just by accident leaving them out there in Kenan and then during a Saturday football game, somebody tripping. You call me if you need to ask anything, okay?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes, I would like to do that.

[TAPE 3, SIDE A]

FRANCES HOGAN:

And by the end of the sixties, we pretty much started calling the clubs teams, or we considered them teams. We would go up to one another and we'd say, "Well, who does the tennis team play today?" Or that type thing. We never called them clubs. And all the restrictions that we had back in the forties and fifties and sixties were really the DGWS guidelines that we had to follow. Then we became a charter member of the AIAW in 1971. The framed charter membership certificate is in there. I guess it ought to be hung someplace.

We had in the program seven sports at that time. The number of sports over the years depended on the interest of the females that we had on campus. So, sometimes we had more sports than other times. Everything depended really on the interest. If we could generate enough interest in basketball; maybe the next year we didn't have enough interest, so, we didn't offer the basketball program. But anyway, the seven sports that we had going into the seventies were basketball, tennis, volleyball, fencing, field hockey, gymnastics and swimming. Back in the forties and fifties and sixties, actually, we had a synchronized swimming club. And they put on an annual show. It took just an unbelievable amount of time and it was always very successful. And Mary Frances Kellum was in charge of that. Anyway, then when we became a charter member of AIAW in 1971, all of the clubs automatically became varsity teams. And these sports that I've already mentioned existed off and on for years as club teams long before the

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University became affiliated with the AIAW. From '71 until '74 the program of Women's Intercollegiate Athletics was under the supervision of the Women's Physical Education Department. Mrs. Fink was head of the Women's Physical Education Department. I was the faculty sponsor to the Women's Athletic Association. And as I told you before, the department was not too interested in the women's sports or in the women's intramural program back in the '40s, '50s, or '60s, but at the end of the year they would ask for a summary of everything, get the percentage of student participation and that type thing for the chancellor's report. In October of 1974, after I was appointed Director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women by Dr. Carl Blyth, the program was placed under the athletic department, but we were still members of the AIAW and the men were members of the NCAA.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Who was paying for it then when you got switched to the athletic department?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, even though we were under the supervision of the physical education department, all those years the money primarily for running anything that we did in athletics came from the athletic department. And like I said, when I became director there was about seven thousand in the women's athletic budget. The year before that it was like two thousand something for the total program. But you have to keep in mind the department still had rules and we still had to go by DGWS guidelines. We had to stay within a certain radius and so on and could play just so many games and so many contests, so you didn't have the schedules

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rules in the early '70s was because all of the coaches back then were on the staffs of their physical education departments. So, in addition to teaching full loads, you were coaching and some of us were coaching two or three different sports. So, we'll get into that a little more as we go along. But anyway, the program in '73-'74 added golf, and then in '76-'77 track and field, indoor and outdoor track, plus cross country. Then later, of course, in '79 and '80 the soccer was added, so that we had, at that point, thirteen sports and the men had thirteen.

I remember arguing with Bill Cobey at the time and said, "Bill, I don't think we should put soccer in because I don't know who they will compete against." There were no college teams. He said, "Oh, I think we'll do all right." So, soccer played really club teams that first year, and then of course, you know the story. We've won most all the national championships. Our soccer coach, in addition to all that he's done here, has promoted soccer all across the country. And I think it is one of the best programs that we have. Then when we went under the athletic department, the department had to declare the division of competition that we were going to compete in, in the AIAW. And there were three divisions. Well, really at the beginning, we had mostly large schools and small schools and that type thing. But they declared that all of UNC's women's varsity teams would compete in Division One. And that's what we did. Of course, we had no scholarships in '71-'72 when we first became members of the AIAW. That was the rule and they prohibited athletic scholarships for women until 1973 when a lawsuit was filed and they finally allowed

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them. So, we gave one in '74-'75. It was a tennis scholarship. I was the tennis coach and I knew nothing about it until I was told that I had a girl coming with a scholarship.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, who picked this girl?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I have never really understood that, but I think it was Dr. Blyth. And the choice was all right. I had players on the team better, which made it hard, but she was a good player. She got along all right with all the others. I don't know whether they talked about it or not, but it always bothered me that we had better players. But of course, every year the scholarships have increased in the total program, and I think the following year after that one, we gave three. And the next year, we gave sixteen, and the number has been going up ever since. I don't know how many they give now. Then, ACC championships were initiated in '77. Well, first of all, go back to the AIAW because that was the first and only national association governing women's intercollegiate athletics and it existed for eleven years. Most of the schools wanted one set of rules to go by; one of everything to go by. And even though I thought some of the AIAW rules were really better than some of the NCAA, this University and the chancellor and the athletic director all went in that direction as most schools did. So, of course, finally the AIAW was out of existence after eleven years. The last two years of the existence of the AIAW, we all knew that we were going NCAA, so the coaches that we had could declare whether or not they were going to play AIAW championships, NCAA championships, or play both. And some sports did play both or

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compete in both and some went AIAW. There were coaches who wanted to stay with AIAW and some wanted NCAA.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Was that a difficult decision?

FRANCES HOGAN:

For most, but I think it was not a difficult decision for the institution and it was an institutional decision. The athletic director and the chancellor both at that time, felt that was the direction to go. But as we went into the NCAA, they still gave the coaches time to adjust by saying, you know, "You can compete in AIAW championships, or you can do both. Or you can go just NCAA." So, it wasn't that we were cut from AIAW all of a sudden, so I thought that was good.

MARY JO FESTLE:

But you weren't really in on the decision?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Not really. I don't think it would have mattered. I was there when it was being discussed and all of that, but I didn't have a chance, really, to change their minds. First of all, the AIAW didn't have the money the NCAA had and that was one of the big things. They wanted men and women's athletics under the same rules. The NCAA was willing to establish championships for the women. And I don't know. It just went that way. Some of our coaches thought the women would receive more publicity.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Who made the decision to go with AIAW when it started to become a charter member?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, Mrs. Fink and our department, because back then everything was really under the Alliance of Health and Physical Education (AHPHERD). That was the thing to do then. Most all the schools joined. I don't know whether Mrs. Fink discussed it with any officials. You certainly would have to now. But back

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then, I don't believe it was discussed. It was just the thing to do. Just like if the DGWS told us to do something, we did it. We didn't discuss it with anybody, you know.

MARY JO FESTLE:

How did you feel about that? Were you happy with this organization?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, Mrs. Fink just came in one day and told everybody. She held up the little framed membership certificate showing that we were a charter member. Anyway, ACC championships were initiated in '77-'78.

MARY JO FESTLE:

How come that took so long?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, we were still under AIAW. And the first ACC championships were in tennis and basketball. Most of the ACC schools had these sports in their programs. Then cross country and swimming championships were added in '78 and '79 and volleyball had it's first ACC meet in 1980-'81. There have been ACC championships in field hockey and track and also golf. And we also had some unofficial ones in fencing. But the rule states there have to be five ACC schools with the sport in their program before they will conduct an ACC championship. I retired in 1985. I'm not sure how many ACC championships there are now for women.

MARY JO FESTLE:

But not in soccer and not in softball.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think one interesting thing to note is that women coaches were paid for the first time in '73-'74 and the salary was one thousand dollars per year for each coach. Keep in mind that the coaches were all on the staff of the P.E. department. Some were graduate assistants and some were regular staff. It didn't matter the length of the season or how much time you put

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in or if you met the group once a week or whether somebody else met them. All coaches received the same. So, no allowance was made for any difference in coaching responsibilities, length of season and so on. The first full-time employee in the women's athletic program was the secretary, who was hired in 1976. And the women's basketball coach became the first full-time female coach in the program in '77. The Director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women became full-time athletics in '78. I worked from '74 to '78 for three thousand dollars each year. And those were hard years.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I'm sure they were. And how did you feel then, when these full-time coaches were being hired at these big salaries, comparatively?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, the salaries were not that big then. Jennifer Alley, the first full-time female coach, received an automobile to use. I received a car in '78. Back in the seventies, we had some men coaching, but mostly we had women coaches. Now, we have a male head coach of swimming, and men are head coaches in track, cross country, soccer, volleyball, gymnastics, and fencing. There are two assistant men basketball coaches. So, there are more and more men coaching women's teams, whereas in the early seventies and sixties and fifties, that would have been frowned upon and not allowed.

MARY JO FESTLE:

What do you think of them?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think some of the men are excellent coaches. I think Anson is just a terrific soccer coach. And I think Derrick Galvin is just tops in gymnastics. Ron Miller is that way in

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fencing. Frank Comfort is that way in swimming. They're all such refined people and in addition, they are very intelligent. So, you feel the women are under very good care. And that makes a tremendous difference. But we do have many assistant coaches now. You see, back in the seventies, you were the head coach and that was all. You didn't have assistants. Now, most teams have assistants. Dot Gunnells is presently the golf coach, and she was hired at the time when we had no money. The program was still was under the Department of Physical Education. And at that time, Dr. Blyth and I decided to go with local people. We did that in tennis, the person who took my place, and we did it in softball when we added that to the program.

Am I going in the direction you want to go?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think it's interesting to note that basketball has had a lot of different coaches. And over the years, we had Gail Stacy back in the early seventies. Jean Eller followed her and Raye Holt and Sue Cannon followed Jean Eller. In '73-'74, the women's basketball team or program was put on probation. And it was done so by the North Carolina Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. And I've told you all of this, but there was a starting date and a stopping date back then for every sport. So many of the schools in North Carolina were small and the P.E. staff had to coach all of the sports. The NCAIAW tried not to burden any one school, and so they had starting dates and stopping dates for all sports. A person on the UNC-CH physical education staff, a female, reported Raye Holt and Sue Cannon to

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the North Carolina AIAW for beginning basketball practice before the starting date. The team was practicing in Carmichael and Raye Holt and Sue Cannon were sitting in the bleachers. They were not conducting the practice. But the ethics committee of the NCAIAW declared that it was an organized practice because the facility had been scheduled. The NCAIAW held court in Greensboro. And I remember Homer Rice and Carl Blyth were questioned. The team was questioned, the coaches were questioned. And I was serving on that committee and since it involved my school, I asked to be taken off at that time. But the penalty was that UNC could play a regular schedule, but would not be allowed to participate in any AIAW events like the Southern Region II Championship or the national championships. Raye Holt and Sue Cannon left UNC and Angela Lumpkin became coach. She was a terrific coach; did a fantastic job, even though the team was on probation. Instead of going to the AIAW nationals, the team went to the National Invitational out in Texas and did quite well. Angela coached for three years. And then Jennifer Alley took over. It was that particular year (1974-75), when we were on probation, that North Carolina State made strides, and we fell behind in basketball. And I don't know that we've ever quite recovered. So, anyway, we've had a lot of different coaches in basketball. In cross country, we've had a lot of different coaches, but now we seem to have very stable cross country and track programs. I don't know whether you want to go through all of this on coaching or not.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Do you feel good about where the programs are now?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, I feel very good about the program. I think we have an excellent coaching staff. I really do. Ron Miller and Anson are both known all over the world for their sports. And the field hockey coach, of course, Karen Shelton Scroggs is a former Olympic player. So, I don't think you could find a better staff anywhere.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Can you talk for a while about Title IX?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

When was the first time you heard about it?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, we knew that it was coming and I think that's one reason Carl Blyth was interested in the program back in the late sixties and early seventies even before we became a charter member of AIAW. There was a lot of discussion about it. I went to Atlanta to be briefed on Title IX. And that was when Gywn Gregory talked at length about Title IX, and we spent a whole day listening. I remember Willis Casey from N.C. State got up and said, "Mrs. Gregory, how do you propose we pay for our stadiums and our pools," and on and on he went. And she got up and she said, "Go out and have some bake sales like the women have had to do all these years." Anyway, it was a very informative meeting and I learned a lot there. A lot of people thought it applied only to athletics, but it didn't, of course. There's no doubt Title IX made a big difference in women's athletics. I think this University would have had a good program regardless. Things would have happened a little more slowly. I don't think the budgets would have increased the way they have or the coaching

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staff. I tried to think of the things that really have come about because of Title IX.

[TAPE 3, SIDE B]

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think the biggest thing, of course, would be the budget. There's such a difference now in what we had way back and what we have now. The fact that there's almost equal monies given to females as men in scholarships. The women travel to places just as far away now as the men. And at one time it was so bad about the travel that John Swofford and I had a rule that you could not travel west of the Mississippi. It was just getting too involved. And then the coaches started fussing because unless they can compete against nationally ranked teams, then there's no way their teams can get ranked. It also helps with recruiting. The coaches had two points that they argued and one was the recruiting and one was getting ranked. So, they do travel long distances. Of course, if it's a real long trip, it has to be approved. And there's no doubt that the facilities are pretty much equal now. I can't see any difference in the facilities. The women have come a long way from long ago when you had to lock the tennis courts up or fight for a field or you were chased off a field. We were not even allowed to be on the intramural fields back then. It was pathetic. And we did use, I told you, the outfield of the baseball field over where the student union is and that was rarely. We didn't get to use it all the time. So, I think travel, the facilities, the budget, the full time coaches now that we have, not only are they full time but they are well trained to coach. The assistants that we have now, which we didn't have before, the equal number of sports now for men and women. The equipment is greatly improved. When

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I was coaching even until '76, I did not get uniforms for my tennis team. I didn't want the other teams to think that I was doing more for the tennis team, being women's athletic director. So, my team never had uniforms as long as I was coaching. [Laughter] And now they have all kinds of uniforms. We now have paid officials. The women are not having to do all of that. The women are allowed to eat at the training table. They can get help with their academics. In other words, I think the men and women are treated as equal as anyplace I've been. What else do you think you need to discuss? I jump around so. I don't see how you're going to make this work.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Don't worry about it. What was the reaction here about Title Nine from the students or the athletes or the athletic department?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I guess it was building up over a period of time. It went so smoothly. But I think we had a chancellor, Chancellor Taylor, who was very interested in women's athletics. We had a department head, Dr. Carl Blyth, who was very interested. And then when the program went under the athletics department, it took a little time.

MARY JO FESTLE:

You were on the student grievance committee?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I was on the student grievance committee and I was also on the faculty athletic committee. The faculty athletic committee is an advisory committee to the chancellor on athletics. And the grievance committee, I told you one of the first grievances we had was the girl complaining about the locker space in the Women's Gym.

MARY JO FESTLE:

But you guys had been complaining about that for a long time, hadn't you?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. Nothing was done. So, I know Title Nine helped that situation.

MARY JO FESTLE:

What was the reaction here to that complaint?

FRANCES HOGAN:

The men really had all of Woollen, all the intramural fields, all of Navy field, had baseball diamonds, oodles of locker space. And the only facility that the women used with the men was the swimming pool up until the late sixties.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, were you glad when this complaint was filed?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I was. Yes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, how about the athletic department and the people here?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Everything's fine. I think people realize that the women were not treated right, and they're glad to see the change.

MARY JO FESTLE:

It sounded like there were a few students at least who were angry about the differences at the time.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, I'm sure. But back up until Title IX, students just didn't know any. . . . I mean, they just were so accustomed to being treated that way or having such poor facilities that it just didn't seem to matter. And then once they had a little taste of it. . . .

I think the first thing, basketball and volleyball started playing in Carmichael, and even then they had to practice over in the Women's Gym. And then finally, they got to the point where they were practicing and playing in Carmichael. I don't know. We've had some injuries in the Women's Gym because the wall is so close to the playing area.

MARY JO FESTLE:

It's a dangerous place. [Laughter] Was it difficult for you at all to be on those committees and hear people complaining, yet not sure if you could make a difference?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No, I enjoyed all the committees and it kept me up on everything. And in fact, I learned a whole lot by being on all those committees.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I read that one of the recommendations at first when the department had to do a self-study, I think, to try and assess what the situation was for Title Nine. And that one of the recommendations was in order that officials for women's intramurals be paid the same as men who were doing officiating intramurals, so that they could get them paid the same amount was to assess a fifty percent fee increase for only women students. Do you remember that?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I don't remember that becuase I was not responsible for intramurals. No. The students paid an activity fee.

MARY JO FESTLE:

All students?

FRANCES HOGAN:

All students, yes. So I don't know why they said that they had to pay more.

MARY JO FESTLE:

It's strange to me, too.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I just wish I had a penny for everything I've officiated, and the hours I've spent.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I'll bet more than a penny. When this University sent comments to HEW on Title Nine, they recommended that the government distinguish between revenue producing sports and nonrevenue producing sports. Do you think that that's a good decision?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. I never felt that just because the men were say, getting a budget of two hundred thousand, that the women had to get a budget of two hundred thousand. I think the budget depends on the need of the sport. The sports now that have very little in the way of a budget or very little in the way of scholarships are fencing, softball, and gymnastics. Yes, those three. I don't know why, because softball is listed near the top of the list of most frequently offered sports at member NCAA institutions. Not that I'm opposed to field hockey or lacrosse, but when you think about how few schools offer those sports in their programs as compared to how many offer softball. I always felt that we needed to include sports that the state high schools offer and also the sports that are the most frequently offered at other member NCAA institutions. Because I was talking to the track coach the other day and I said, "Dennis, y'all really have done well." Think of the schools that have track. So you've jillions of people to compete against and then if you take a sport like lacrosse, I'll bet there are about how many schools? Forty or more? So there's such a difference in competing where there are many schools to compete against as compared to a few. I think there's a big difference. Do you feel that way?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, I think that I agree with you that you try to give a team what they need and then, to some extent, you know, it's easier for the field hockey team to do well comparatively, if there's not very many people playing it.

FRANCES HOGAN:

They still meet tough competition. It's not that they don't. I don't mean that. It's just that so few schools have the sport.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I guess one of the things that I struggle with is do the men's basketball and football teams deserve a lot more special treatment? Maybe some more special treatment, but I'm not sure where you draw the line on that.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I'm not sure either. I don't care whether it's fencing or football. When you play any sport, it just takes an unbelievable amount of time and I know because I went around and observed so much. I went to a lot of practices and made a point of going to see if time was being used wisely or whether it was really an organized practice. I think it's terrible for students to spend a whole lot of time if they aren't really getting anything out of it. We also made real close check on schedules, and I'm sure they still do, to see how many classes students would be missing. And the schedules had to be approved before they were official schedules. And the main thing that we took into consideration was how much they were playing in any given week. They could not play anything during exams or we didn't want anything going on on Sunday unless it was after church hours. We didn't want them missing a lot of classes. And sometimes, they would if they were traveling on a Tuesday every week, you know. So, that, we had to work on. There's a whole lot to it.

MARY JO FESTLE:

What do you think the students get from being student athletes?

FRANCES HOGAN:

You mean besides learning teamwork and that type thing? They improve their self-image, and they certainly gain confidence. They learn to work with others, teamwork, play well. They learn to cooperate. They learn to be considerate. They learn to give it their very best and be willing to pay the price. You don't get anywhere in athletics if you aren't willing to pay the price. And there are many people who are very gifted. God has given them a lot of natural ability, but it still takes more than that. You learn to win; you learn to lose gracefully. And it's just as important to learn to lose as it is to learn to win. Learn to be humble. I would not give anything for the experiences that I've had in athletics.

MARY JO FESTLE:

How about being on the other end? What were the things that you liked most about your job and what were the things you liked least?

FRANCES HOGAN:

The thing that I liked most was dealing really with students. I enjoyed working with coaches. I think I liked the least, let's see? I liked everything. [Laughter] This is what I've always wanted to do all my life. It was almost like taking a hobby and just having fun with it. I put in a lot of hours. But I guess that would be the thing I disliked the most were the long hours away from home.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Have you seen evidence of much cheating or rule violations?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Not really. No. And we certainly enforced the rules and regulations. I tried to. I can remember in the early part of soccer, Anson was winning everything; his teams in soccer.

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And one year, he started ahead of schedule. In other words, the rule was everybody had to be declared eligible to play, so that meant you had to go over to Records to check academic records. And so, all of a sudden I noticed he was playing some out-of-town team and he won by a big margin. I called him in and I said, "Anson, let's call that school." And he said, "What do you mean?" And I said, "Well, we're going to call and tell them that we forfeit the game." And he didn't know what I was talking about, but I made him do that. We broke a rule. He played before he was cleared to play and so even though he won that game, he often talks about it and it's on his record as a loss. I had one student athlete that was on scholarship and her season was over. And I found out she was being paid by the men's intramural office. Well, when you're on full scholarship, you are not allowed to receive additional anything. And I called her in. She was very difficult to get along with, and she said, "Go ahead and report it." And the penalty at that time was that a year of eligibility would be lost. She had completed her four years of eligibility, but it still seemed wrong to me that she was on full scholarship and taking that money. But she never turned herself in. That was an odd case. We've had some, but mostly, I think they're all pretty honest.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Do they have trouble balancing academics and athletics?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think the coaches are working more on this now. I don't think so. Most student athletes are doing well. Even women's basketball is up this year. [Laughter] I'm not helping you very much.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes, you are. When did the first black women athletes start participating in intercollegiate sports here?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I really don't know. I guess it would be in basketball, but I cannot remember whether we had any. I think when Jennifer Alley came, really, is when we started getting more blacks. But I can't say that that's the first, you know. I really just can't remember that. We have had one or two in gymnastics, we've had one or two in volleyball. We've had a lot in track. We've had a lot of them in basketball, but I don't believe I've seen any in softball. There could be now. I don't know. And I haven't seen any in golf or swimming or tennis. But I have seen them in gymnastics. I haven't seen any in field hockey. I think most of them have played more softball and that surprises me that I haven't seen them out there.

MARY JO FESTLE:

One of the stories I was told [inaudible] was about the women's basketball team getting an offer to play in London. Do you remember this incident?

FRANCES HOGAN:

That was back when Jennifer was coaching. They went to Hawaii one time, I know. And did they go to London?

MARY JO FESTLE:

They tried to raise the money themselves and it sounded like they came up with about two-thirds of it themselves.

FRANCES HOGAN:

They did? I can remember that vaguely. So much has happened it's hard to remember everything. And I'm getting old and feeble minded. I've gotten so I really miss a lot of names now. But Jennifer Alley was a good basketball coach and she had a good record. And right now, I think the weakest segment of our program is women's basketball.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Were there ever any coaches who got angry about the treatment of their teams or frustrated and left?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No. No. We've had several to leave because, for instance, we had a girl coaching field hockey. That was at the time when we hired some local people. She was not that knowledgeable about field hockey and she was the first to admit that she wasn't. And she did work hard and she did the very best she could. And she came in one day and she said that it was time for her to stop. She said, "Mrs. Hogan, the team is getting too good, and I'm not able to coach them." And I think the coaches can sense that, you know, when they're not good enough. They come in and let you know.

MARY JO FESTLE:

That's interesting. So were the seventies a good time for you?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

You saw things improving.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Things improved. You know, it's funny that as hard as we worked and Bill Cobey worked, when you read anything now, it's like everything has happened within the last few years. Well, it's not true because we laid the foundation and we also had championship teams and they talk about all these championships they're winning now, but we've had championships way back. And they do not put in the records over here now anything that happened before we became members of the NCAA. So, if they give you the soccer record of national championships won, they're talking about NCAA championships. Soccer won the first AIAW soccer championship and it was held out at Kenan Stadium and that

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was a real fun event. But you know, it's hard when I read things and no credit is given to the people who worked so hard to get women's athletics on a sound footing. More championships are offered now then the early '70s, especially ACC championships, so it's only natural to be winning more of them.

MARY JO FESTLE:

It's important for those things to be remembered.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I don't know. I thought that was the worst thesis, though, I'd ever read. And I went over it and you can see how marked up it is.

MARY JO FESTLE:

How would you describe your personal style as an administrator?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I'm sort of laid back, but when I get mad, I'm mad. [Laughter] I guess I expect too much from people and my mother used to tell me that. "Frances, don't expect so much from people and you won't be so disappointed." Or if I'd lose a tennis match, she'd say, "Oh, just look. Don't worry about it. Think how happy you made that other person."

MARY JO FESTLE:

Can you think of examples when you got mad about something as athletic director?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, I can think of some things, but they were soon forgotten. You know, I don't remember things like that, but I can remember certain occasions. I had a coach to go into my office one day and I heard her telling the secretary, she was talking about me and she said, "I'm just getting tired of that old lady," or something like that. We were to have lunch that day. She came in later and she said, "Ready to go to lunch?" And I said, "Well, I don't believe you want to go with this old

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lady," or something like that. Her face turned red, and I said, "I want you to know." She was about twenty-four or so, and I said, "I was just as young as you when I came here. Some day you'll be old, too," you know. I've gotten after coaches about things like when they turn in a voucher, and I don't think it's right or something like that.

[TAPE 4, SIDE A]

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, one of the things you say you've gotten on people about is failing to do a voucher right?

FRANCES HOGAN:

A voucher right or a lot of times, I thought they were using the telephone, say, too much, you know, just unnecessarily. We were trying to cut back on that and they just kept on. It was just little stuff like that, not anything really big.

MARY JO FESTLE:

And how do you think a coach should dress?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I think a coach should dress appropriately for whatever she's coaching. I don't know whether you've been to any of the women's basketball games or not, and I'm sure women dress a lot of times the way they do thinking if they don't they look too masculine. So, they put on real spiked heels, and they go out on the basketball court. Well, to me that's out of place. On the basketball floor, you're trying to protect the basketball floor. So, they look like they're going to a reception or a wedding or something. I think that just a simple blazer and skirt or slacks if you're sitting on a bench. I see nothing wrong with any of that, but I think it has to be appropriate to the sport.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did the change to the NCAA. . .

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, like I've gone in the swimming pool when they had the team swim over here in Woollen. And the University has a rule that you cannot go in there with street shoes. There are certain specific rules that apply to the entire student body. When I'd go in there and she the coaches breaking the rules, that

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would hit me wrong. I don't think the swimming team should have more privileges than regular students. A rule pertaining to the pool is a rule.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did the change to the NCAA affect teams very much?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No. No, I just think everything's better organized now since we're older and know more what's going on. And coaches, most of them, have been on the staff long enough now to know what's going on. They know coaches all over the country. They know how to get their schedules arranged and the teams to play. It's just so different now. They're so much more organized and know what they're doing.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Mostly with experience.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. And some have been here, Ron Miller, I guess, has been here the longest as coach and he's the only one on the staff still teaching. And he prefers that because there are so few fencers, and he is able to locate fencers in his fencing classes and then work with them and get them to the point where they can compete.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did you ever have somebody recruited from the P.E. classes for women's teams?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Do you think women athletes are respected more today? You know, I think they get better treatment, you know.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, better treatment, better publicity, better coverage. It's not frowned upon now. Males accept women now that are very athletic. It's certainly different.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Why do you think that's changed.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I guess it changed gradually over a long period of time. I think people like Chris Evert and Nancy Lopez have made a difference. Don't you think?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes. I've heard people say that a lot, especially about Chris Evert.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, she was a good model. Chris. I just think that our women physical educators way back were the ones who were so opposed to females doing anything on a highly competitive level.

MARY JO FESTLE:

That's strange, isn't it?

FRANCES HOGAN:

It is. And you know, just like the DGWS, they fought anything that was highly competitive. The highly skilled girl really suffered back then. I can remember that there was a student at Winthrop College. That's where I went for my undergraduate work. And her name was Godbold. She was a terrific athlete. That was an all female institution back then, and the student body thought so much of that girl that they raised the money and sent her to the Olympics. She won several gold medals, but at that point in time, see, the school couldn't send her, and it was unheard of for a female to do stuff like that. But the student body backed her up and she went.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Was this when you were there?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No. Before my time. Way back in the twenties.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Do you have any guesses about why DGWS opposed things?

FRANCES HOGAN:

It's just like my daughter who when she was a little girl. People would ask her, "Bucky, what are you going to do when grow up?" And she said, "I'm going to do what my mom does." Well, she was athletic. Now she's just the best looking girl and

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thin and, you know, pretty. Not at all like me. But when she got into junior high, she came home one day and she said, "Mom," why do all P.E. people scream and yell so?" And since, do you know that she has never said, "That's what I want to do." She didn't like it after that. So, I think you have a lot of women in physical education, or you did back then, who were very outspoken and very opposed to something, and they just, you know, stood up for it. Then all of us coming along were taught by those people. There are still people who are very opposed to women's athletics. And there are still a lot of people opposed to the NCAA. There's a lady at Appalachian who just has nothing to do with the NCAA and she's very upset that we did away with AIAW. So there are not as many now. But it's just a strange thing the way that happened.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Do you remember the attitude toward AAU at all?

FRANCES HOGAN:

That seemed all right. In fact, we had a national diving champion here, an AAU diving champion back in the forties. Female. Nobody ever remembers that girl, but I do. We've had some great athletes here.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, it seemed like AAU was the only group really offering championships at that time.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. A lot of Y's, our Y in Sumter did a lot with that group. You should go into all of this because you seem so interested.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I am. I am very interested. [Laughter] I've been reading up on the AAU and physical educators in the fifties. Was there someone named Post at Winthrop?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. She's dead. It's real strange. I made her a quilt. She was in a wheelchair and I made her a little lap quilt and took it to her in Rock Hill the last of October. She had lunch brought in and we ate in her house. She stayed in that wheelchair the whole time. And it was shortly after that that she died. But we had the best visit, and she and I kept up with each other. She really helped me get to graduate school and helped me a whole lot. And just a real nice person. Fat as could be. A little short, fat lady. But she lost all her weight when she became so ill. I had Dr. Halsey and Dr. Gladys Scott at Iowa.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Oh, I've heard that name.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, you would. And Dr. Scott hasn't been dead too long, and she has an adopted daughter who lives in Durham. I didn't know this until I read about her death in the Iowa Newsletter. Dr. Halsey was head of the department when I was out there and they had a good staff out there.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Another thing I wanted to ask you was do you remember or were you involved with the President's Council on Physical Fitness at all? Did that affect things much?

FRANCES HOGAN:

We all were involved in that a little bit and we tried to do all of that. We ran all those little tests and things. I can't remember all of it, but I remember, you know, the charts and things that we had.

MARY JO FESTLE:

It seemed to me that was one thing that started changing a little bit for women.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. That's true. I think you're right.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I mean, here's the President saying it.

FRANCES HOGAN:

But look how many people now are jogging and walking and just doing all kinds of things. Even the older senior citizens are doing things, even if they're in a chair. They have programs for them out at Carol Woods. It's just a wide open field really. I think, though, that we pay our athletes too much. Don't you?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Yes, I think it's a little out of proportion.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think it's almost ridiculous.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I'm not sure why we think they're that important.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I know. But then you take our total budget for athletics is close to sixteen million. And what's the total number of athletes? And when I left there were about, I don't know, I bet there were not six hundred.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I'll bet you're right.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Five or six.

MARY JO FESTLE:

And it wouldn't be near that much without football.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, we have some teams that have large squads like lacrosse and field hockey and soccer and fencing. Some of them do have large squads, but I don't think we'd have many more than that. So if you divide that number into the total amount spent, I often wonder how you justify something like that?

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, [inaudible] the athletic department's budget comes from student fees a little bit, the Educational Foundation.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Scholarships come from the Educational Foundation, and then the rest is generated.

MARY JO FESTLE:

That's nice.

FRANCES HOGAN:

I guess it is. I don't know. I feel like we've left out important stuff, but there's just so much to cover. There were only three advisors to the Women's Athletic Association during the whole time I've been here. And I did it, you know, the first four or five years and then I stopped to have children. And during that time, Doris Hutchinson did it for three years between 1950 and '53. And then I started back in '53 and went until about '66, and then we had Mary Louise Cranford who did it. But she didn't do it for very long because the men and the women started, you see, doing the intramurals together. And up until then, it had not been that way. [pause] You'll probably think of some other questions or something you'll want to ask, you know. And I'll help you any way I can.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Okay. Well, the last thing on this is if someone wants to know about women's sports thirty years from now, you know, they don't know anything about it, is there one thing that you would tell them? If they're looking at it and they want to know what was it like for you?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I think the school itself has changed—enrollment from, say, four thousand something students to twenty-three thousand or whatever we have now. It's unbelievable the buildings on the campus now and the growth and the change in the facilities. Plus the change in female enrollment because we had so few in the beginning. But we have always had a good athletic program here for the women since '46, and I know that. And I think we will always continue to have a good program. We had excellent athletes. We probably didn't have as many, and I'm

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sure we didn't back in the forties and fifties and sixties, but it didn't mean we didn't have good athletes. And they certainly are being motivated so much more now with all of these facilities and scholarships and, you know, the publicity you get. Just think, we had excellent athletes back in the forties and fifties, and you never saw or heard a word about them. There are just so many changes that have occurred, and we'll see more and more and better and better athletes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I think so.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. I think the records will be broken and people will keep getting better and better. They'll probably find another vitamin to take. [Laughter]

MARY JO FESTLE:

What are you most proud of?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, I am proud of many things. The fact that I came here and have been successful, that I've been able to do what I loved and still have a family. I've enjoyed many experiences. I'm proud of being the first appointed Director of Women's Intercollegiate Athletics at UNC-CH.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, I really appreciate your time.

FRANCES HOGAN:

But I'm lucky. I think my mother thought I wasn't going to learn to read when I was a child. She said, "Frances, I don't know how you've gotten as far as you have." She was so funny. [Laughter] I think you can do what ever you make up your mind to.