© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
L-0044, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
As the first director of women's athletics at the University of North Carolina, Frances Hogan shouldered the task of finding adequate facilities, equipment, and competitions for sports programs that were generally ignored by the administration. Hogan begins the interview by discussing the few athletic options that were available when she started working for UNC in 1946 and the various ways the coaches worked around limitations. She also compares the $1,000 salaries paid to women's coaches in 1973 with the millions of dollars some coaches received in the early 1990s. Hogan devoted many hours to building the athletic program even when she was paid no salary at all. She explains how she juggled coaching with teaching and family responsibilities, and tells stories of how students adjusted to barely adequate facilities. Some became nationally successful, though female athletic competition was discouraged by many people who thought it was a masculine activity. Hogan continues with a description of the rules governing women's club sports and how those rules changed with the switch to NCAA division sports and with the introduction of Title IX in the 1970s. She feels that Title IX brought necessary improvements that helped students realize the value of women's athletics. In general, she feels the program has been successful for several decades, but she worries that the most publicized male athletics programs receive too much funding.
Frances Hogan was in charge of finding facilities, equipment, and competitions for the women's athletics program at the University of North Carolina from 1946 to the 1970s. She discusses how students and coaches worked around the limitations to plan their own tournaments and occasionally succeeded on the national level. She describes the change from club sports to NCAA division sports and the introduction of Title IX in the 1970s. The interview ends with her summary of why the program is successful.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Women's athletics at UNC-CH was set up pretty much like most schools
across the country. When I arrived in 1946, UNC had a Women's Athletic
Association organized. We had campus-wide elections. We didn't need a
treasurer because there was no money. [Laughter]
No. Just a graduate student.
The only sport we did not have in intramurals was field hockey because so few people played, and we considered it dangerous for unskilled players. We had intramurals in badminton, tennis, golf, volleyball, table tennis, swimming, softball, and basketball. We even had intramurals in dance, where the sororities or dorms had to make up dances and present them and they were judged.
So you had plenty of alternatives.
Yes, there were plenty of intramurals. The percentage of participation was extremely high. I don't know whether it was the competitive spirit in trying to win the Dorm Cup and the Sorority Cup, or whether it did afford an outlet for students to have some fun and just some real vigorous activity. We had clubs in a lot of sports. The clubs were designed for the highly skilled player. If you participated in a club in a certain sport, then you could not play intramurals in the same sport. So, we had clubs in basketball, tennis, swimming and on and on. But I know I coached the basketball, field hockey, and the tennis clubs. And I actually coached tennis for twenty-five years. We had to call them clubs rather than varsity teams. We had the craziest regulations back then. Cut that off and let me see if I have. . .
[Interruption]
But, here, for instance, this is dated 1970—much later. These
were set forth for intercollegiate athletics for women in North Carolina
by the advisors of the member schools of the North Carolina Athletic and
Recreation Federation for College Women. [Laughter]
[Interruption]
These are some old books that I've kept on women's athletics, and they
were about to be thrown away. It just infuriates me that they don't keep
any historical records on women's athletics. Some have never considered
women as having any athletics until we became members of the NCAA or
until the women's program was placed under the Athletic Department in
October, 1974. It makes me mad because we had outstanding athletes as
far back as I can remember. We did not have as many because it was
frowned on so much for women to be so athletic. It's entirely different
now. [Laughter]
[Interruption]
Before scheduling a home event, we' had to check the use of the gymnasium, pool and other facilities for conflicts. There's just so much to tell you. There were rules on travel. It's just too much.
Before they were called intercollegiate teams, they were clubs, right?
They were clubs. And until we became a charter member of NCAIAW in 1971,
we were still pretty much clubs. The difference between a club and a
team, even up until in the seventies, was that clubs were more
informally organized. In other words, the coach, so to speak, was there.
The students would come to practice if they wanted to. There was no, you
know, "you have to come." Frequently, a girl would
come up and say, "Mrs. Hogan, I can't be there. I've got a
date," or something like that. But it really was not that bad.
And then as we started what we call "varsity sports,"
the practices were more organized and students were required to be
present. One of
That's all right. Let's see if we can talk about some specifics about the clubs.
All right. The clubs were informally organized in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. We could not travel out of a fifty mile radius.
Why?
That was a departmental rule.
For just women, or for men too?
For just the women. We could play Meredith, St. Mary's, Peace College, State, Duke. Think how many schools are right around here. We didn't play the black schools back then. We did get over to UNC-G. I think we even played Greensboro College, maybe Guilford. You could play only five contests. It was very limited. Finally, it was increased to seven and finally to more.
And how often do you think they practiced a week?
In the early '50s, I would say twice a week. We had so many other duties like running intramurals, officiating, teaching, etc.
Which were every night?
Every night and the afternoons, too. Everything was different. Maybe we
had two practices a week, sometimes three. But we never met every day
until, say starting back in the late sixties. The last field hockey club
I coached, we were playing Meredith College. We played where the Student
Union Building is now. That was a first because the baseball diamond was
there. The baseball coach agreed that we could use the outfield. We'd
been maybe five minutes into the game when the band came out. They just
started their practice right out in the middle of our game and marched
right through. The Meredith team had to go home and we never finished
that game. That is the way it was back then. We had to fight for every
little thing. We used to play,
And you had to do that yourself? Just come up with some way to. . . . You probably bought the chains yourself.
There was no water on the tennis courts. They finally have a water fountain up there now. But the teams struggled. I mean, you'd have your opponents come in for basketball and "Oh, no. We've got to play in this box again?" The other schools called the women's gym "the box," and that's about what it was. The women's gym was not official regulation size for volleyball or basketball.
And so, did you have spectators?
We had them sometimes sitting in the windows. I remember Frank McGuire came down to see the girls play basketball, especially one girl. She was good. Coach McGuire said if she were a boy, he would have signed her up.
Really? Who was that?
Katherine Bolton. And she went on to teach at East Carolina. Very good
athlete. And she and I used to compete a lot in badminton and other
sports. She saw me not long ago and she said, "You know, I
believe you're finally getting old enough and I believe I can beat
you."
I think that was 1959.
Yes. And I have all the material on it. The lady who was the director
recently died, in March. I told her nephew-in-law,
But I can remember Laura DuPont, who won the National Collegiate
Championship in tennis in 1970. It was called the USTA Women's
Collegiate Tennis Tournament. Laura was an exceptionally good player,
and I knew she had a chance to win. The P.E. Department could not
finance Laura's trip to the nationals, held at the University of New
Mexico. I made up my mind to go to Homer Rice. I didn't know him at all.
This was before I was made director of Women's Intercollegiate
Athletics. But he said, "Well, is she any good?" And I
said, "Well, I think she can win." "Well, I
think we can arrange it." So, I thought, "Gosh, that
was pretty easy." So, in a meek way I said, "Well, Mr.
Rice, do you think I can go with her?" "I think we can
arrange that." And that was all that was said and I went. So,
of course back then, the women had always watched every penny. I still
do that. Anyway, Laura and I went, and she did win the whole thing. And
when they announced her the winner, and I knew the struggle we had been
through, I had tears rolling down my
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Instead of trying to go straight down the line, she started hitting more
in the center and cutting down on the angles of return. And all of a
sudden, she started winning and she won the whole thing. And when they
announced the "University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill,
Laura DuPont," and they went out with this big silver bowl full
of red roses. Tears were just running down my face. You know, I just
couldn't believe that she had done it. And what a struggle we'd had to
get there. So, I thought, "Well, when we get back, they'll
really have this written up." Do you know the P.E. Department
was so mad, the chairman was, that he would hardly speak to me because I
had gone over his head. Before I left for New Mexico, I went over to see
Jack Williams in sports information. I left all the information about
Laura and where we were going to be. When I returned, there had not been
one word in the papers. And I went in there and Mr. Williams said,
"Well, I must have lost the information," and he kept
going underneath papers on his desk, and he found the material I had
left. He had no idea of writing anything. But that's how bad publicity
was.
Yes.
One day she came and asked, "Mrs. Hogan, do you want to go hit
some?" And I thought [Laughter] [Laughter]
Well, you're a pretty good tennis player.
I was. Now, I wish I'd get out there and get some weight off. But anyway, the next year Laura should have won but she was sick. She beat a nationally ranked girl in the finals in 1970, and she was the first female student athlete to have her portrait hanging in Carmichael. It was a struggle to get her picture in Carmichael. Now there are many female athletes on the walls in Carmichael.
As you said, there were some great athletes here.
Great athletes. And I tried to provide tennis experiences. I can't
remember the starting date. I'd have to look in those notebooks. I ran
twenty state championships on this campus during the '50s, '60s, and
'70s. Now, this sounds ridiculous, but they were well run. They were
scheduled at a time when we could get the courts, even the varsity
courts, which was one day once a year. The varsity courts were down
there where the Paul Green Theater is now. But anyway, I started the
tournament because we had so many good tennis players here on campus.
And I invited all the colleges in the state of North
Really? Let's talk about the importance of the social aspect.
Well, just go back to that hockey game where the Meredith team had to leave. I said, "Well, we can go down to the women's gym and have some refreshments." They all went down into the bottom room in the women's gym, three flights down. There were little tables and we had cokes and cookies. We did that after every event whether it was basketball, tennis, field hockey; didn't matter. You went down there and you were supposed to meet all the other girls, talk to them, get to know girls from other schools and so on. But going back to that tennis day thing, and we had to call it a "Tennis Day" because it was done in one day. It was not really like a play day. This was a more competitive thing. It was highly competitive.
Well, were you sort of fudging the rules in that way? I mean, having a "Tennis Day," yet making it very competitive and having a champion?
I thought it was a very unique idea. I don't know of any school that has
ever done that. I don't know any community that's done that. I thought I
was pretty smart to think about it. [Laughter]
I think so, too.
And the coaches loved it. And we would have as many as nineteen or more schools here, so you can imagine the crowd.
Yes, that's quite some organizing.
Yes. But all the staff in the women's P.E. Department helped. It was fun. And the funny thing was we always had excellent weather. There was one time when we didn't, and I had a picture in here for years. I don't know what happened to it. But it showed everybody mopping the courts. And we still played off all the matches.
I think the idea of the social stuff afterward is such a nice idea. Did it work out well? I mean, was it hard to compete with people and then be nice to them afterward?
I don't think so. No, not at all. No.
Were the athletes just as competitive?
Yes. I think they were competitive in a nicer way. It's just like now, I
don't seem to enjoy tennis like I once did, because of the viciousness
or the tantrums or all that mess. I just can't stand all that. And it
used to be that you would say, "Well, it's out. I'm
sorry." [Laughter] [Laughter]
Well, let's talk about a typical day of yours. Let's say in the fifties or sixties.
Well, let me just say this. When I started as Director of Intercollegiate
Athletics, I was paid. . . . Well, first of all, no women coaches were
paid until '73, '74. And it didn't matter what you were coaching, you
were paid one thousand dollars. So, if you did tennis, a thousand.
Basketball, a thousand, and so on. It didn't matter the length of your
season or how long you worked or who did what. You were paid the same
amount. And I was paid three thousand dollars as Director of
Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. And I gave up my vacations, worked
all summer on handbooks and stuff. You never had a vacation like
Christmas or anything like that, because you had your conventions at
that time. But I did that until, let's see, I stopped coaching in '76. I
said when Jane Preyor graduated, I was going to stop. The P.E.
Department still didn't have a lot of money to hire coaches. And so,
Carl Blyth said, "Let's hire some local people." And
we did that for tennis and for women's golf. But when I stopped the
tennis, they decided to leave the one thousand on my salary. So, from
'76 until '78 or '79 I made four thousand dollars as Director of Women's
Intercollegiate Athletics. I was still teaching, having to teach, so I
was getting a small teaching salary. Finally I was made full-time
athletics. I guess it was in '78 or '79. And then in 1980, John Swofford
became Athletic Director when Bill Cobey resigned. Everywhere I went,
people couldn't understand why we had two directors. So, I mentioned it
to John Swofford and I said, "I really think you're the
Director of Athletics and that I should be made an associate athletic
director." And that's what we did
So, you had nothing to do with it?
No. And she was not as good as some of the others on my team, but somehow they all got along and it worked out. But I think getting into scholarships creates a lot of other problems.
About recruiting and things?
Yes. I've worked and given a lot of time to this University. My last
year, my salary was $38,000. I averaged a thousand a year
because I worked for thirty-nine years at UNC. [Laughter]
Whereas, you had been doing it yourself?
Yes. Other staff members helped. So, a lot of it, I guess, was my fault because I didn't speak up, but I was just that way.
So, in the early days, you had a full-time teaching load.
Yes, really until 1978. In 1974 I continued teaching full-time. I started at eight o'clock. Finished at three o'clock. I taught just about every hour. Rushed over to South Building to do my General College advising. Stayed there an hour or so and then rushed to the tennis courts and coached until dark. So, I never really had any time.
I can't imagine. That's amazing.
Yes, it is. I couldn't do it now. I mean, I look back sometimes and think, "Gosh, how did I do that?"
Did you ever see your family?
Yes. My husband was there always at night when I came down here for
intramurals. We were fortunate. We had the nicest maid who took such
good care of my children, and it wasn't always such a full schedule when
they were little. My schedule became heavier and heavier. The
intramurals were taken care of because my husband was always home.
Anyway, it just worked out. My children were grown when my schedule
became so hectic. And gone.
Yes, you have. You'd be surprised.
But you know, there are so many funny tales about athletics. We tried
back in the forties and fifties and so on, to be very professional about
officiating games. You never saw any of us dressed without a navy skirt
and a white shirt. And even back then, we required the intramural
participants to wear a gym suit. They all had to come to play looking
right. I just think it's amazing the way things have changed. I can
remember that first year after 1974 when I worked on the women's
athletic
You mentioned earlier before we were talking on tape that you said that you felt sorry for the highly skilled girls.
Back in the '40s, '50s, and '60s I did because they didn't have many
competitive opportunities. And so the whole idea, like with the Tennis
Day, was to set up situations for them. Back then, I had girls who had
been on the Junior Wightman Cup team. I had the tennis champion from
virginia. I had many good players. The whole club may have not been as
strong. I mean, there was a big difference between the number one player
and the last player. And I didn't cut anybody. I'd have eighty or more
people trying out for the tennis club. And we had a JV club. I was
trying to give opportunities to as many as I could.
Were you involved in the Division of Girls' and Women's sports? I guess in the fifties, that was. . .
Yes. We all were, really. We all were and we certainly tried to abide by all of their guidelines.
How did you feel about the guidelines?
Well, back then, that was all I knew, you know. That's what we had preached to us in school and college. I came from a high school that had an excellent program. Even down in South Carolina we had field hockey which was unusual. There was not a sport we didn't have. And yet, we could not play outside of that high school unless it was a play day type thing. If you were in the senior class, there were maybe four field hockey color teams out of that one class, so you played color games until you got down to the last class games. And we just had a terrific time.
So, you yourself played tennis and field hockey?
Oh, I played every sport and played club hockey. I guess I played fifteen years of field hockey. And I played tournament tennis since I was a little girl. And we didn't have divisions like we do now, so if you were thirteen you went and played in the tournament. You didn't have age divisions. [phone rings] It's not mine but it's ringing.
Did you do track and field?
Track and field and gymnastics were two that I did not do that much of. I
played a lot of golf, a lot of tennis, a lot of basketball, a lot of
field hockey. Of all the team sports, [Laughter]
Oh, she was so dainty and pretty and cute; not at all like me. And then I had two brothers; they are both dead now. And my father was very athletic, so he understood. I mean, I played all the time. There wasn't anything that I didn't try.
They didn't try to stop you?
Oh, no. Mother sent me to music lessons and all that, and then finally
she gave up.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Basically, you didn't use any facilities in Woollen or the intramural fields?
We weren't allowed. We couldn't go down and use the racquetball courts
until Title IX came along. Title IX started the change in facilities.
The University had a grievance committee. You may check this out for
your report. But one of the first grievances was a female student
complaining about the locker space in the Women's Gym. We had like five
people to a locker. And so, I happened to be appointed to serve on the
Grievance Committee along with Jim Cansler and Lillian Lehman. I can't
remember the others on it, but the chairman of that committee brought us
all over to Woollen Gym and we had a tour. This was before Fetzer was
built. We had a tour and they were appalled at what they saw in the
Women's Gym as compared to what they saw in the men's. And right away,
some of the space in the Men's Gym was converted into women's locker
space. As I've said, it's been a battle. The women's gym was designed
for very few women students. I think it was something like two hundred
students. Anyway, it was a small number. That figure could be given to
you by the people over in the P.E. Department. When we were trying to
raise the money to build Fetzer, I went out making speeches trying to
get the bond passed. All of us did. Fetzer originally was to be a
facility for females. And finally the idea was changed. I don't remember
now exactly why it was changed. They thought they could get the bond
through better if it was not called a female facility. Anyway, it
passed. Of
They don't teach, do they?
No. A few of them did when they were not full-time athletics. Now
everybody's full-time athletics, except the fencing coach.
Let's go back to you a little bit and how you ended up getting into physical education yourself. You must have really loved sports.
Oh, I just knew that was what I was going to do when I was a little girl.
And I was influenced by, not an aunt, but I called her Aunt Cilla. Her
brother was married to my father's sister. So, I just knew her real
well, and she ran a camp in the summers. She had finished at Sargent's
School in physical education, and she was one of the leaders there in
Sumter, South Carolina in physical education. She later became mayor.
That's how influential she was. The high school program was excellent
with excellent equipment and facilities. In Sumter, the women went to a
girl's high school and the men went to a boys, so we were separated by
blocks. The only way we could play basketball was on the stage in the
auditorium, and it was a frequent thing for somebody to be playing and
end up in the band pit. [laughter]
But you made do.
Yes. We made do and had a great time. But I never questioned what I was going to do. I did think about going into medicine at one time and I was going to Wellesley. And then when I found out I had to have so many foreign languages, without saying a word, I changed my mind.
Really?
And my oldest brother was killed in World War II. And my youngest brother was badly wounded. But when he came back, he did not go back to the Citadel. He came here. And Bob Fetzer was a very good friend of my father's. And his brother, Bill Fetzer, had coached my father at Davidson College. Anyway, my brother Dick, who was here in school, was approached by Bob Fetzer to come out for track. Mr. Fetzer was the track coach. Dick came to me one day and he said, "Frances, I just don't see the point in running around just to be running around." But he did make the basketball team at UNC. Well, anyway, he told Bob Fetzer that I was finishing up at the University of Iowa and he said, "You know, I believe Frances would like to come here." Do you know that I was hired? Bob Fetzer and Ollie Cornwell discussed it, and Bob Fetzer said, "Well, any daughter of "Buck" Burns has to be all right." They never asked me for any credentials. Can you believe that I was hired? They would no more do that now.
Sight unseen.
Sight unseen. They didn't know whether I'd passed or failed or gotten a degree or what.
That's amazing.
And I had no idea of coming here because they had offered me a real good job to stay at the University of Iowa. But with the war, and all that my mother and father had been through with both brothers missing, I came back. And I guess I'm glad I did.
This was a Master's degree you were getting in Iowa?
Right. And I taught full-time there two years while I was getting it. And I taught one year at Winthrop before I went out there.
Winthrop's where you got your undergraduate degree?
Yes. I don't know whether you need any of that.
Oh, I would love that. Sumter, South Carolina was
And you know, every time Chancellor Taylor sees me he says, "It is S-U-M-T. . . ." See, he was spelling it S-U-M-P. So, I had to get after him.
So what was the job description you were hired for here?
As an instructor of physical education. And like I told you, there were
so few women students back then. And when I got here I was never so
miserable. I thought it was the most boring place because at Iowa during
the war, we were on a very fast program and you were covering like three
semesters in two. I started teaching out there at seven in the morning
and I mean,
But then they got you involved in other things pretty quickly?
Well, I did the intramurals back then. But I was so used to such a full schedule at Iowa. But we've had some good times here and I've enjoyed it. If I had to do it all over, I'd do it the same way. But I would speak up a little more. The difference that I see now is that we didn't wait for people to tell us. You know, now if they do something extra, beyond what they're paid to do, "Well, what am I going to get if I do that?" And there's a big difference. Plus, they'll speak up more now. You know, they question salaries and they question loads and budgets and so on and you just accepted back then, particularly if you were a woman.
You were just trying to do what needed to be done.
And I'm sure the same thing that happened to the women here probably happened all across the country.
I think that that's probably true.
I don't deny that. Unless you were in an all girls' school or something like that.
Can I ask you something that I'm interested in in my own research?
By the way, here is a thesis recently completed on the history of women's athletics at UNC.
You know, I was just reading that in the North Carolina collection.
And it is so wrong.
Is it?
Oh, I was furious when I received this copy. I went over to the P.E.
Department and went through this page by page with Dr. Billing. They had
a committee. The chairman was getting ready to leave to go to North
Carolina State. The graduate student who did this waited too long to get
started and so they were really rushed. They had nobody on the committee
who knew enough about women's athletics. Dr. Billing realized it. In
fact, Ron Hyatt, who was on the committee said, "You know, we
deliberated a long time whether to let that go through." Well,
if they felt that way, why did they let it? So then when I went through
it with Dr. Billing, he called the graduate school and told them that
there were many mistakes. That the thesis was not accurate. And he was
originally going to insert a page in the front of every copy over in the
library or wherever they put them to indicate that it was not accurate.
He said the dean from the graduate school called and said,
"Well, most theses have mistakes," and let it go. So,
he hasn't put anything in it to indicate that it's not right. But it is
not right. I told him it was a disgrace. In the first place, it's so
poorly done and
Yes.
Because golf was considered a ladylike sport. Back in '59, we had to house the participants on campus. You couldn't do what they're doing now. And there were real specific rules about conducting the tournament. We housed them in the Institute of Government. It worked out really nice.
What other sports were considered ladylike?
I know that golf had the first national championship for women. I think your roughest sport is basketball. I've seen real rough looking softball teams. But the nature of the sport plays a role. I haven't noticed that this year. The softball team looks good, and they look like they are really fine girls. Actually, most all the female athletes are nice—tennis, gymnastics, volleyball, fencing, track.
Did you worry yourself at all about being ladylike, or you just wanted to play?
I just never thought about anything like that. I was a tom-boy, though.
I'll admit that. And the boys picked me, you
I'd love to borrow it and take a look and see
Go through that and see if it can help you any. You don't want to keep that, I'm sure.
I'd love to. Can I make a copy?
No, I have a copy. But it's just not very well done and it's the only one I could find.
Let me ask you one final question and maybe we can talk about whether we can talk another time after I've listened to what I've gotten.
Okay. I don't know how you're going to use that. Here's something.
"The Women's Gym was the hub of women's athletics from '42
until the late sixties. Until then, it was the only indoor athletic
facility available to women students except for Bowman Gray pool. The
building accommodated all women's indoor physical education classes and
intramurals." We had everything there under the supervision of
the Physical Education Department. HEW's Title Nine, the students'
complaint of locker room space to the grievance committee, the increase
in female enrollment, and the completion of Fetzer Gymnasium in 1981
have all been contributing factors to the many changes that have
occurred in the facilities for women. The Women's Gym was built to
accommodate two hundred women students"—you see, this
is accurate—"by the U.S. Navy in 1942. At the time,
female enrollment was seven hundred twenty-eight. The gym has been
quiet, almost vacant, since the completion of Fetzer.
Yes, I would like to do that.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
And by the end of the sixties, we pretty much started calling the clubs
teams, or we considered them teams. We would go up to one another and
we'd say, "Well, who does the tennis team play today?"
Or that type thing. We never called them clubs. And all the restrictions
that we had back in the forties and fifties and sixties were really the
DGWS guidelines that we had to follow. Then we became a charter member
of the AIAW in 1971. The framed charter membership certificate is in
there. I guess it ought to be hung someplace.
Who was paying for it then when you got switched to the athletic department?
Well, even though we were under the supervision of the physical education
department, all those years the money primarily for running anything
that we did in athletics came from the athletic department. And like I
said, when I became director there was about seven thousand in the
women's athletic budget. The year before that it was like two thousand
something for the total program. But you have to keep in mind the
department still had rules and we still had to go by DGWS guidelines. We
had to stay within a certain radius and so on and could play just so
many games and so many contests, so you didn't have the schedules
So, who picked this girl?
I have never really understood that, but I think it was Dr. Blyth. And
the choice was all right. I had players on the team better, which made
it hard, but she was a good player. She got along all right with all the
others. I don't know whether they talked about it or not, but it always
bothered me that we had better players. But of course, every year the
scholarships have increased in the total program, and I think the
following year after that one, we gave three. And the next year, we gave
sixteen, and the number has been going up ever since. I don't know how
many they give now. Then, ACC championships were initiated in '77. Well,
first of all, go back to the AIAW because that was the first and only
national association governing women's intercollegiate athletics and it
existed for eleven years. Most of the schools wanted one set of rules to
go by; one of everything to go by. And even though I thought some of the
AIAW rules were really better than some of the NCAA, this University and
the chancellor and the athletic director all went in that direction as
most schools did. So, of course, finally the AIAW was out of existence
after eleven years. The last two years of the existence of the AIAW, we
all knew that we were going NCAA, so the coaches that we had could
declare whether or not they were going to play AIAW championships, NCAA
championships, or play both. And some sports did play both or
Was that a difficult decision?
For most, but I think it was not a difficult decision for the institution and it was an institutional decision. The athletic director and the chancellor both at that time, felt that was the direction to go. But as we went into the NCAA, they still gave the coaches time to adjust by saying, you know, "You can compete in AIAW championships, or you can do both. Or you can go just NCAA." So, it wasn't that we were cut from AIAW all of a sudden, so I thought that was good.
But you weren't really in on the decision?
Not really. I don't think it would have mattered. I was there when it was being discussed and all of that, but I didn't have a chance, really, to change their minds. First of all, the AIAW didn't have the money the NCAA had and that was one of the big things. They wanted men and women's athletics under the same rules. The NCAA was willing to establish championships for the women. And I don't know. It just went that way. Some of our coaches thought the women would receive more publicity.
Who made the decision to go with AIAW when it started to become a charter member?
Well, Mrs. Fink and our department, because back then everything was
really under the Alliance of Health and Physical Education (AHPHERD).
That was the thing to do then. Most all the schools joined. I don't know
whether Mrs. Fink discussed it with any officials. You certainly would
have to now. But back
How did you feel about that? Were you happy with this organization?
Yes, Mrs. Fink just came in one day and told everybody. She held up the little framed membership certificate showing that we were a charter member. Anyway, ACC championships were initiated in '77-'78.
How come that took so long?
Well, we were still under AIAW. And the first ACC championships were in tennis and basketball. Most of the ACC schools had these sports in their programs. Then cross country and swimming championships were added in '78 and '79 and volleyball had it's first ACC meet in 1980-'81. There have been ACC championships in field hockey and track and also golf. And we also had some unofficial ones in fencing. But the rule states there have to be five ACC schools with the sport in their program before they will conduct an ACC championship. I retired in 1985. I'm not sure how many ACC championships there are now for women.
But not in soccer and not in softball.
I think one interesting thing to note is that women coaches were paid for
the first time in '73-'74 and the salary was one thousand dollars per
year for each coach. Keep in mind that the coaches were all on the staff
of the P.E. department. Some were graduate assistants and some were
regular staff. It didn't matter the length of the season or how much
time you put
I'm sure they were. And how did you feel then, when these full-time coaches were being hired at these big salaries, comparatively?
Well, the salaries were not that big then. Jennifer Alley, the first full-time female coach, received an automobile to use. I received a car in '78. Back in the seventies, we had some men coaching, but mostly we had women coaches. Now, we have a male head coach of swimming, and men are head coaches in track, cross country, soccer, volleyball, gymnastics, and fencing. There are two assistant men basketball coaches. So, there are more and more men coaching women's teams, whereas in the early seventies and sixties and fifties, that would have been frowned upon and not allowed.
What do you think of them?
I think some of the men are excellent coaches. I think Anson is just a
terrific soccer coach. And I think Derrick Galvin is just tops in
gymnastics. Ron Miller is that way in
Yes.
I think it's inter