Yes. So I think it was a very close vote, but it went to Dick Phillips. I don't know whether that was a cause or not, but within a year or two Tom Christopher left to become the dean at the University of New Mexico. Then he left that after four or five years to become the dean of the University of Alabama which was his alma mater and he stayed on as the dean at the University of Alabama for about fifteen or twenty years. So that was Tom Christopher. He did good things down there. He was for integration and that's when George Wallace was the governor, so he had to move cautiously, but he had a lot of good symposiums at the law school and would invite people in to speak and there would always be academic freedom, but he was pushing things the best way that a dean could. Then we hired in 1961 three more people. The enrollment is increasing over the years. There was Dan Dobbs from Arkansas whom I had taught at Arkansas and he had been the editor of the Law Review at Arkansas and I had been the faculty advisor to the Law Review. Then he had gone and he had worked a summer or two with Senator Fullbright. Senator Fullbright was the chairman of the Foreign Relations committee and Dan's father was a lawyer. I don't know whether he'd been the head of the atheist's society or not, but he had been very active in it. In Arkansas at the time, they had something called "Religious Emphasis Week" where classes would stop for a week and various ministers would come in and there would be public forums and discussions. The two years I was at Arkansas Dan Dobbs wrote the letter to the school newspaper protesting bringing in all these religion people. He was an original thinker and didn't mind going against the grain. Then he'd practiced for four or five years after he'd clerked for a Federal judge. Then he went to Illinois and got his LLM and came here where he became, to my surprise, a scholar. He gave up pretty much all outside activities except legal scholarship. He wrote…. He took over Prosser's tort book and he also wrote the leading book on remedies while he was here. He would get offers all the time to go visit for a year somewhere or to join the other faculties. After ten years or so he took one and he went to the University of Arizona at Phoenix. He's a warm weather person. He's an umpty-ump chair of some kind up there.

So he went to Arizona?

He went to Arizona. At the same time we got Dick Day, Richard Day. Richard was a Michigan graduate, an honor graduate, who had practiced law in an anti-trust firm and a food and drug firm, the biggest one in Washington, D.C. and he'd done that for about five years. His interests were sailing. He liked to sail and he was a sailor of some repute, but we didn't hire him for that reason. He stayed here. He quickly became the recorder or secretary for the American Bar ABA section on anti-trust. He wrote up the annual report which would always be about a hundred and fifty pages of what's doing this year in the field of anti-trust. He was an excellent teacher and an excellent scholar and a very congenial person, but we didn't have any secretarial help all that time. We had Gladys who was the dean's secretary and that's all there was in the way of secretarial help. I forget. Ruth Strong was our general manager and she came in after another lady who had been here thirty-five years or so. When I came here to replace Bill Aycock who became the Chancellor, I saw him. He used to hold court every day at 9:30 at Lenoir Hall which was the cafeteria. I said, "Bill, I don't have any pencils or any stationery." He says, "It's in the bottom drawer. There are some pencils I left for you." There were about six half pencils in a little thing. So I went over to see Miss whatever her name was which was across the hall and said, "Could I have some stationery please?" And she said, "How many letters are you going to write?" And I said, "Well, ten maybe." So she counted out ten pieces of paper for me. We had to buy all our own supplies.

As an individual?

Yes. We didn't have typewriters or anything.

So you did everything hand written?

Well, I bought a typewriter, a second hand typewriter. But that's the way it was. And poor Dick Day was putting out this…. He typed and he spent all summer writing this thing himself. Then he got an offer from Ohio State to go out there and join their faculty and they told him they'd give him a secretary. So he told Dick Phillips, "You know, I'd like to stay here, but they are offering a secretary. Can you match it?" And Dick said, "No." So we lost him. He continued to be real big in anti-trust but we couldn't keep him for lack of a secretary. But what happened was…. I guess Henry was the dean when he left because the dean out there who was Frank Strong, called and said that they were going to hire Dick Day and he was just making a call to make sure he didn't have three heads or something. And during that conversation Frank Strong said to Henry Brandis, "Why in the world is he leaving Chapel Hill to come to Columbus? Any sensible man would go the other way." So Henry Brandis said to Dean Strong, "Would you leave your deanship out there and come here?" And Frank Strong said, "Yes, I have two more years of my deanship and then I'd be delighted to leave here and go to Chapel Hill." So that's how we got Frank Strong who then was the President of the Association of American Law Schools which is the association of all law schools and that's one of the great prestigious jobs. So here's Frank Strong, President of the AALS and long time dean at the Ohio State coming to us because Dick Day went there for want of a secretary. So in any event, Dick Day came. Also in 1961 John Scott came. John was from Alabama and had been number one in his class and had gone into the Army. Then he went to Harvard Law School and Dean Griswold was the dean and was in tax. He asked John Scott to stay on for a year or two and help him with some books. So John stayed and helped write Griswold's tax books. Then he went to Randolph Hall which is the big tax firm in D.C. and he was a tax lawyer there. Then he went over to the Internal Revenue where he was in the think-tank of their tax law section for three or four years. Then he went to New York where he was the tax partner in a Wall Street firm. He came down. I remember Henry Brandis telling him that, "You'll do a great job if you just block three zeros off all your illustrations." He was a big time tax lawyer, so he was experienced, very experienced and a very humorous guy. He stayed with us for a long time. So then we got Ken Penegar. Ken, again, was an undergraduate here and he had been extremely active in student government. He'd been the general counsel or the vice president of the senior class or something. Then he was in the Navy for three years and then he came back to law school and was articles editor of the Law Review or something. Then he went to Yale for graduate work. He was very interested in international relations; he thought it was not east-west, but north-south and that we should build up relations with Latin America. He did a lot of work at Yale in that area. Then he clerked for Judge Fayhe on the D.C. Court of Appeals. Then he came here. We liked his international flavor and it was '62 and the war on poverty was starting. We always say, "What would you like to teach if you come here?" And he said he'd like to teach a poverty law course and he'd like to do it with the three law schools; to meet each week at a different law school so that there would be some interchange physically and so on. So that sounded great, so he started a course on poverty law and had to make it up, you know. And he met one week here and one week at N.C. Central and one week at Duke.

Would the students go to each school?

The students would all travel around so they'd get to know the other. And they'd break for coffee to go to the Student Union so they would have some exposure to the different environments, which was very good. He had them all doing empirical work. One thing I remember that he came up with, the students did, that was it important to have a council or not for drunken driving? So they all went to the drunken driving court and their conclusion was that it was not important in relation to guilt or innocence because the policeman said they were going so fast and they had such and such blood content and that was the evidence. But it made a heck of a lot of difference in terms of sentence. Those that showed up without a lawyer lose their licenses and go to jail and those who showed up with a lawyer would always get a suspended sentence if they promised to go see the Alcohol Clinic or something. But I thought that was very good to have some empirical study. So Ken stayed with us for four or five years.

Did he teach that course each year?

Yes, it went on. At about that time the Speaker Ban controversy came.

So this was mid sixties?

Yes, '62 or '63. And he and I were the first faculty. The students came to see the lawyers and we had the meetings with the students on what to do about it and everything. So he and I were the first two faculty to get involved in that. Then he left to be the dean at Tennessee. Then he left there to be the dean at Southern Methodist. Now he's the assistant to the Chancellor. I don't know the title, but that's where he is. I kept in touch with him over the years because we're both Southerners for Economic Justice with W.W. Finlader and Bob Hall and the Southern Institute and so on. We really started off as a front group for the Textile Workers Union in their fight with the J.P. Stevens Company. That's why we were formed. So Ken was a stalwart there over the years. Then also, we hired Pete Millett to teach taxes. I guess somebody was away or something, but this was 1962 and Pete Millett had gone to Harvard undergraduate and then married a North Carolinian and had been in the Navy. There seems to be a pattern developing. Then he came here to law school. He was in the same class with Julius Chambers. The year that Julius Chambers was a second year student, we changed the method of selecting the Editor in Chief. Up until that time, the number one person in the class was automatically the Editor in Chief. And George Hardy who came here and said, "We didn't do it this way in Louisiana because the number one in the class may be a nerd or whatever. We want somebody who can work with the other people and who can know something about journalism or something." So we changed it to the top three and then the students recommend and the faculty appoints. So that was when Julius Chambers was in his second year. Then Julius Chambers went on to be number one in his class and had we not changed it, he would have been automatically the Editor in Chief. Well, number two in the class was Pete Millet and so the students had to vote on which one should be the Editor in Chief. At that time there was a Law Review banquet for the outgoing and the incoming members of the Law Review and past members of the Law Review, so it was in a sense, an elitist thing and you'd get a judge or somebody to give a speech. At Cornell where they did that, they wore tuxedos and there was liquor. There was a bar before the dinner. Well, at that time there was no place where you could get a drink that would admit Negroes. So if we elected Julius Chambers the editor and the Editor in Chief presides over the dinner, that meant we would have to have the annual Law Review dinner in a campus facility where they don't serve liquor and that was sort of a…. It was crazy, but that became an issue, whereupon Pete Millett said, "I withdraw from the race."

When he realized that was…

He did not want that. He withdrew in favor of Julius Chambers whereupon we did away with the Law Review dinner. We solved the problem. And then later on, some years later, they revived it in the sense there's now a Law Review breakfast to which everybody is invited. But that was Pete Millet. I thought that was great of him to withdraw in favor of Julius Chambers and he said, "Julius Chambers is number one in the class and he can get along with everybody and that he ought to get it." He made the nominating speech for Julius Chambers.

Was Julius Chambers the first black chief?

He was the first black editor of a Law Review outside of a black law school anywhere at any time.

And this was in the early 1960's?

Yes. "Time" magazine came down and wrote a big thing about it and "Life" made a big thing about it. Earl Warren, the Chief Justice, called me and asked me if Julius Chambers wanted to be a clerk for him. I guess he called Henry Brandis. I got a call from Arthur Goldberg who was then the Secretary of Labor asking me if Julius Chambers would like to move into the Secretary's office. Bobby Kennedy, who was the Attorney General, called down here, so he was a rarity and a great person. But he told me that he…. There's always the big firm that's the end of the rainbow. Everybody wants to go King and Spaulding or something. That's the milieu. Well, Julius Chambers told me he went up to Covington and Burlington which is the traditional large top D.C. law firm and was interviewed there and four or five of the senior partners called him, "Boy". They'd say, "Well, boy, why would you like to come work for this firm? You know we don't have any coloreds here." You know? That sort of thing, which is where we were in civilization as it's so-called. But in any event, back to Pete Millett. He was a very nice guy and he stayed here about two years and I think he was replacing somebody. I can't recall. But in any event, he went…. Florida State and Tallahassee opened. There had been no law school there and they were creating one. Pete's wife was from Tallahassee and her father knew somebody, so Pete got an invitation from the President of Florida State to come down and help organize the new law school. They were bringing in an elderly retired dean at Iowa to be the dean with the understanding that he'd get it started in three or four years and then step aside. I think Pete Millett was told that he would be the successor. But he left and went to Tallahassee. Then in 1962, we also got Ernie Folk who was in a wheelchair. He had had infant…. When there were Salk vaccine cures . So his legs were withered and so on and he had a wheelchair. If you go to the bathroom here you'll see the Ernie Folk bathroom because we built the law school here while he was here and the ramp and those were all known for Ernie Folk. They are accessible to a person in a wheel chair. He had worked in the Department of Justice and he was in corporations. He became big in corporate law. He was just a very nice fellow who had taught at the University of South Carolina for three years after he left the Department of Justice and we were looking for someone in corporations. He wanted to come here and that's what he did. He was a scholar and he was not really interested in much else. He was sort of like Dan Dobbs. He stayed here five or six years and got an offer from Virginia, which was his alma mater. So he went back to Virginia. Also in 1962 we hired Bob Byrd. Bob had been the Editor in Chief of the Law Review here and had gone into the Army for three years or so and then had come to law school here. Then he went to work for the Institute of Government. He'd worked there two or three years and Albert Coates liked him very much and Henry Brandis liked him very much. So he was hired. There was a little dispute in the faculty. Dick Phillips and I thought he wasn't broad enough. He hadn't had any experience. He'd done most of his Army at Fort Bragg. He was from Johnson County which is where Albert Coates is from. He'd come to UNC as an undergraduate, went to Fort Bragg, came back to law school, went to the Institute of Government and I assume he had been to Washington or New York or somewhere, but we thought he was too provincial and too limited. But we were convinced that he wasn't by the vote of the majority of the faculty. He was hired and he's been here ever since 1962. Then he became our dean for five years. At the end of five years he announced he didn't want to be it any more. So that was the early faculty and I would say that quickly looking it over, there was Dick Phillips from practice in Laurinburg, a good successful broad-based practice with a guy who became the governor, Seymour Wurfel with his thirty years in the Army and Robinson Everett with his broad community and Tom Christopher who started the Food and Drug Institute and Dan Dobbs who became a scholar but was not hired for that reason, and Dick Day who was the anti-trust person, and John Scott who had governmental experience and private practice and Ken Peniger and Pete Millet and Ernie Folk and Bob Byrd. They were the ones we hired first. If I could categorize them at all…. I guess I ought to bring in Frank Strong, too. There was a good deal of worldly experience and none of them were right out of law school. Robin Hinson was and left. George Hardy was right out of a Rhodes scholarship, but he left. So I guess we learned something. I don't know. But for the next ten or so people we hired, they'd all had legal experience. Dan Dobbs had been very active in the Democratic Party. They didn't have public defenders, but Dan Dobbs was an unofficial public defender. So that was the categorizing of the early faculty.

Did you talk a lot together? I mean, was there a lot of faculty interaction, or would you say it's a ?

Well, when I came through everybody was in their late fifties and I was in my mid thirties. When we came here, my daughter Suzie was three weeks old and my daughter Phoebe was four years old and my son Danny was five years old. So when we came from Washington, and I still retained ties with my old law firm, and until Dick came the following year, I had George Hardy who was just married and he was my friend. Then there was the older crowd. We would be invited to dinner at their house the last three weeks of the school year because they would have remembered that they hadn't seen us all year long. But then there was a Christmas party and you know, there'd be the Dean's party. There would be about four or five parties during the year to which everybody, all the faculty, was invited. And they were always…. For all these old people, and I thought of them as old people then - I don't any longer - they were pretty riotous and they had known each other for thirty years. They went back to a boarding house where they'd all lived as singles where they didn't have radio or television and they'd put on their weekly things, skits or whatever. Freddy McCall would start to tap dance, you know, the buck and wing, and some people would start harmonizing and there were fun parties. They had what they called Chapel Hill punch which was ice and bourbon with a little lemon juice or something floating in it. It was the strongest drink I ever had. If you put some mint in it, you'd have a mint julep, only not frozen. So they were fun parties, but there was very little…. They all had a life and it was hard for them to change their life to bring us into it, so there wasn't much social exchange. Then when Dick came he was my friend. Then the younger ones came and we had a younger group. But at about the same time, Robinson Everett was here and he was a contemporary and he also taught at Duke, so I started to have lunch once a week with Bill Van Alstein who was at Duke and new. And another guy who taught Constitutional law there, Larry Wallace and our Chancellor. They were the young people at Duke. So we used to all have weekly lunch either at the over here or at their Blue and White, whatever their cafeteria was. And then Floyd McKissick was practicing law in Durham. So if I wanted to talk integration law or something, whatever. You know, here's the Supreme Court. What the hell do you think they're up to? Who do you talk it over with? My colleagues didn't get much excited. I mean, they'd seen them come and go over four or five decades. So those were my friends. Bill Van Alstein and Floyd McKissick sort of were a group. And Robinson Everett and Larry Wallace.