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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
L-0193, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
The son of former governor Kerr Scott (1949-1953), Robert W. Scott served as governor of North Carolina from 1969 to 1973. He begins the interview with a brief discussion of his education at North Carolina State University during the early 1950s, and follows with an assessment of his early interactions with William Friday, former President of the University of North Carolina System, when he was the Lt. Governor. The bulk of the interview is devoted to a discussion of Scott's role in and perception of the consolidation of the University system during his tenure. Scott describes how he served as the Chairman of the Board of Trustees in his capacity as Governor and how he lobbied the General Assembly to also appoint him as the Chairman of the Board of Higher Education. Scott worked closely with William Friday and Cameron West, then the Director of the Board of Higher Education, during the formation of the Consolidated University system. In addition to emphasizing the leadership of Friday and West in that process, Scott describes the complex political maneuvering and compromising that was required as a result of changing power dynamics in the state legislature and other factors, including the growing prominence of historically African American universities and colleges. In addition, Scott devotes attention to his decision to intervene in episodes of campus unrest, including his decision to send state troops to the University of North Carolina during the Food Workers' Strike of 1969, and to send in the National Guard to North Carolina A&T in Greensboro after direct conflict between the students and local police broke out. Scott concludes the interview with an overall assessment of his gubernatorial term, arguing that his most significant accomplishment was his ability to reduce racial unrest significantly.
Former Governor Robert W. Scott discusses the consolidation of the University system during his administration, focusing on the leadership of William Friday and Cameron Scott and the political maneuvering that characterized the process. In addition, he reflects on his accomplishments as governor, expressing pride in his ability to significantly reduce racial unrest during a tumultuous era.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Like many people that I have talked to what you just said it suggests that you don't really remember the first time that you met Bill Friday, I guess. A lot of people tell me that....
I guess that is a fair statement, and on reflection not unusual because Bill Friday has been here a long time. He is just been a part of the education scene in North Carolina. Of course, as President of the University, a very prominent part of that scene. But it is not like someone having been recruited in from out-of-state with some fanfare, and so on. And the truth of the matter is that Bill Friday became President of the University at an age, at a young age, and many of the people that were instrumental in bringing that about are no longer on the scene, so they are not able to remember those little bits.
I have been finding that out — very few people left.
Yes, so — I was — Bill Friday had already finished N.C. State and had gone into the service and I guess he really was back before I graduated from N.C. State. He went on to law school, of course, from State, but I was not — did not know him at that time. My first...
Excuse me, what class were you in at State?
I was in the Class of '52, or '53 actually. I
graduated at Christmas of '52, and that threw me in the
following years —'53 — as the
graduating class. I was one of the few people that had their senior
picture in the yearbook for two years.
In 1956...
So, I guess that was Gordon Gray.
Your first, I guess substantial, experience with him was with him was as Governor or Lt. Governor?
Well, as Governor. I am sure that I had conversations with him when I
was Lt. Governor. Bill Friday would have been concerned with any
legislation and, as a matter of fact I know that he was, it was during
that period of time when the effort was being made to establish a
medical school at East Carolina University, which created a great deal
of controversy. There was the so-called "name change
fight" at N.C. State University, when they were going through
all kinds of contortions about changing the name of the University. So
those issues, in addition to the budget matters would have caused Bill
Friday to be around the legislature. But, I don't recall any
significant conversations or events during that period of time that made
a particularly lasting impression on me, it was just normal routine
contacts that one would have as Lt. Governor, with those who are
concerned with legislative matters. Back in those days, University
— well, R. D. McMillan, who was their sort of a lobbyist
— but Bill
Was he — did he have a certain style of lobbying, when he would use the telephone, did he have a lot of face-to-face contact?
Well, I think his style was always very low-key. He never gave evidence of being upset or frustrated, although I'm sure he must have been on any number of occasions. Perhaps it was his legal training that enabled him to be so effective. He could disagree with you, but it would always be in a very pleasant way. He — in my opinion was that he always had very strong facts to support his position and made use of those in a factual way. He did not try to emotionalize issues, but rather did it in a lawyerly and scholarly way. I think legislators in another opinion makers responded to that positively. It is also my impression that he was very effective in getting support from the editors of newspapers in the state. Again, by the use of the telephone, so I am told, he would talk with the editors of the major papers, and they responded positively to that because they felt like that, "Well, here is the head of the University talking with me and asking my opinion, and giving me a little inside information." You know, and that kind of thing.
So he would take them into his confidence and —
Yeah, take them into his confidence, and that probably helped it in his editorial opinions that generally were supportive of the University. I felt that he was much better at that than I was. I'd get upset with the editors, and I would not give them the time of day. He didn't let things — although like I said, I'm sure that he got upset — he didn't let that interfere with what needed to be done. He would deal with people in a way that if they didn't agree with him, it certainly deluded or diminished their opposition in a lot of ways.
So he never let disagreements or differences of opinion get personal, but yet —
That's right and another way we would express that, I guess is that he didn't burn his bridges. He always left the room open — you would always be willing to talk with him—you always felt like even though I don't agree with him on this, I will listen to him and he would always listen. He was very approachable, and folks responded to that very well. He was an effective leader, there is no doubt about it. Not in a highly visible way always, but exceptionally effective behind the scenes. Of course, his role as president caused him to be visible many times and, on appropriate occasions, he would speak out and so forth. But, he wasn't always sounding off about every little issue that came down the road. He had his priorities, he chose them carefully, and he stuck with them. My impression is he didn't dilute his energies with second- and third- and fourth-priority stuff.
He was very careful, very organized?
Very organized. Again, I think that is probably legal training, and he was very structured in his approach to administrative affairs at the University.
He seems to have, along with this other aspect of this network that you just described—the support in the press, the support with the system, wide respect the public opinion — seems to also have had a firm foundation with the business community.
Yes, the same way. And, you know, one should say that he worked at
it—and he did work at that network and in keeping it, you
know, very strong and so on. But I think that it was almost second
nature to him. It probably was not a chore for him to do that. It came
natural to him. And that even made
Was there ever any conflict between the integrity—that what everyone seems to say about him, that he has a very high sense of integrity—and his working behind the scenes? For example, was there ever any sense that if he said one thing you could depend on him—or, I mean, was there ever any conflict there, at all?
Oh, no, I never sensed that. I never had the least inkling that he might have been saying one thing and taking one position and doing something else. No, and as far as I'm concerned, I agree with everyone else about his integrity. It was solid and __________.
He was pretty dependable in terms of?
Yeah, you generally knew where he was coming from. Now, he was able to go out in working behind the scenes, if you happened to be on the opposite side of the fence on a particular issue, he was very effective and skilled in working behind the scenes, and therefore it was difficult to know just exactly how much progress he was making. It wasn't like he was highly visible. You had an opponent out there, but he was very low-key and elusive and difficult to target, if you will. Nothing sinister or hidden about it, it was just an effective way of doing business. And again, during the legislative battle over restructuring the university system, you knew that the opposition was building, and you knew that he was working, but it was hard to pinpoint exactly where he was and what he was doing.
That was part of his political skill?
Oh sure, yeah, and plus his style, you know that's just his style. Bill was a—if I might go back and just give you a little bit of background on this, as to why this all came about. The General Assembly in previous sessions, of course, had gone through the political battles of establishing a medical school at East Carolina University. The business of instant universities in which the former—well, the baccalaureate degree and masters degree in institutions were certainly and suddenly granted university in title, and it got ridiculous, really in the legislature. Everybody that I knew said that there's to be a better way.
This was the result of political influence on the part the regional colleges becoming universities?
That is correct, that is right, and part of all that was the political fight about the name change at North Carolina State University.
How was that connected?
Well, the alumni at N.C. State, you know, wanted something different from what the University wanted and so forth. So they just went directly to the legislature and fought it out.
Yeah, so once the precedent had been established for getting political about higher education, you do other things?
Yeah, sure. Then the, you had the Consolidated University at that time
consisting of first four, and then six institutions, going with a
budget, then the others coming and fighting their own budget battles in
the legislature, and the legislators were getting weary of that, you
know. Having to, you know, form coalitions. That is to say, the people
from the Elizabeth City are those supporting the black institutions
—would have to form coalitions with others in order to get
what they wanted and whatever. So, the people, the legislators got a
little weary about it, and then the public began to say, you know, that
this is ridiculous when they saw the legislature granting University
titles to
Bill Friday agreed in principle.... This was 1970, 1969?
Yes, '69, '70. You know, it wasn't a thing that we all got in the room and said that you know.....
Just conversation?
Just a lot of conversation and discussion about it.
He agreed that there.....
Yeah, he agreed and he was very much involved in those areas, I think. Of course, Bill Friday worked for the University and that Executive Committee was powerful. When they took the position, no we are not going to do this, Bill Friday had no choice. He had to support their position.
Even though that was—
Or else your top chief would have to resign, and Bill Friday is not the kind of person that's gonna—if he is going to stay with them, he is going to do what the Board says for him to do. He is just that type of person. I have no doubt that he probably had honest differences of what actually evolved. But the fact that we needed to do something—no, he supported that and always has, otherwise I wouldn't have tried it to begin with. Anyhow, you know the outcome of it, but that was some of the background of it. And Bill opposed it very effectively, and again he was using that network of the alumni and friends of the University. They were the leaders in the state, but politically what the University had failed to realize was two things. First of all, they didn't really think that we could get it done and didn't really get concerned about it until almost the 11th hour, and we had already laid too much groundwork for it and had marshalled public opinion through the bully pulpit—the Governor's Office, you know, we need to do something and that kind of thing. Then the University leadership of the alumni, and the Executive Committee of the Trustees, and so forth suddenly realized that this might actually happen. But it was a little too late then. That was the first thing. Then the second thing that they failed to realize—or well maybe they realized it, but there wasn't anything that they could do about it—was that the in recent years there had been graduates of other institutions; regional colleges, East Carolina, Appalachian, and so forth, that had moved into the positions of Legislative leadership and were there also. They didn't have that loyalty to Chapel Hill that some of the others did and N.C. State, of course had their folks out. And, it wasn't intended this way at all but it sort of became everybody against Chapel Hill because Chapel Hill was leading the fight against it, and the University Board of Trustees, with its Executive Committee, and this was Mr. Bryant and Mr. Hill and others who were very influential and powerful people. You know, even though they were the Board over N.C. State, Chapel Hill, Greensboro, it was perceived to be just Chapel Hill. And a lot of N.C. State people and UNCG people felt like that was indeed the case, and it would be better off under some kind of other structure that will dilute that concentration of influence on the Chapel Hill campus.
I get the feeling that, on the part of Charlotte, Greensboro and especially State, the Board of the Consolidated University forces are really Chapel Hill forces, which is what you just said exactly, and that at least on a very subdued level many people wouldn't have been unhappy if anything changed.
Oh yes, that is exactly right, and I knew that back in those days, I guess my political antenna were sharper than they are now, and I sense that, and I knew to be the case. In the end, it translated into a final victory. But, it was not without its cost, in that the original proposal we had was, you know, it was modified and amended and so forth. I didn't think that we ought to have a Board of Governors as large as they have. I thought it to be more effective if it had 15 or 20. Well, when you have a shotgun marriage, you know, you have to bring a lot of people in to get the support of the Republicans, we had to agree to put minorities on the boards, to get the support of the blacks, we had to agree, to get the support of women, we had to do that. You know all of those were political compromises.
You made trade-offs?
Yeah, oh yeah. That is the art of legislation.
One of the interesting features of the final package, as it emerged—and it was one of the important parts of your original proposal, or one of the proposals—was the creation of local boards of trustees. What was the rationale behind that; I mean, was it a way to hold the regionals in?
Yes, to hold the regionals in, and also the feeling that, you know,
getting local support for the college. At Appalachian, a sense of
ownership, if you will, and support. I felt like we needed, you know,
some local input,
Let's go back to the structure of the Consolidated University and some of the—what, in retrospect, might have been flaws in that structure, before restructuring. The Executive Committee seems to have been dominated by a fairly small group of people who had been there for a long time. Is that—I guess that is now 20 years later, that is my impression.
Oh yes, oh no question about it. Yes.
Victor Bryant and Watts Hill and ....
Yes, they ran and they dominated it. I'm not sure about this. I don't believe that there was any rotation. I mean, you know if you could get reappointed, you know you stayed there. That is why on this new structure we set up a rotation type thing. It was longer than I wanted it to be, but again that was something we —
That was deliberately, in deliberate response to the old problems that....
To break that up, and I said, "Well, you know if you can't get rid of them, they have got to die someday and then we will replace them." That's why I often said that it would be sometime before we know if this new system is going to function effectively or not, there has to be some retirements and some funerals before we will ever know. So it did take some time.
What kind of person was Victor Bryant?
Again, a gentleman who, of course, was an attorney, and he would never, you know, his demeanor was well just that—a southern gentleman, very courtly, and not given to the street-brawl approach. But, again, being an attorney and haven been on the Executive Committee for the University for a long time, had a lot of contacts around all over the state, and he, too could pull some strings with leadership, and so on. Watts Hill for the same reason.
Was it the case, however, that they were pulling string with the
I'm sorry, I don't follow your question.
Well, I am wondering—you may have already said this, but I am wondering whether the University of North Carolina in the '60s is beginning to lose its clout in the Legislature.
Oh yes. Yes, I think so. Again, over the years the University has a long
and noble and honored tradition, and it was from the University that the
professionals were graduated. The doctors, the lawyers, the teachers, to
some extent those, that is those who went on with the graduate to get
their doctorates. And these people are out all over the state and were
the leaders in the communities and the state leaders, with the exception
of those who went to Wake Forest, and some went to Duke, who were not
involved in this fight, they were members of the legislative group for
generations. Well, following World War II, that began to erode and,
there were other people in leadership roles who did not attend the
university who consequently didn't have those loyalties. An
example: Bob Scott was elected Governor and he didn't go to
the University at Chapel Hill. I want to make clear, I don't
think that there was any plot in saying that we're out to
get, we are going to break up this cartel. I am
Let me just see if I can get his position straight on this, though, going all the way back to 1969-70. He originally favored a multi-campus arrangement.
Well, that was my perception of it.
That was what he said to you?
That was the impression that I had, because he was searching for a way—it was sort of embarrassing to the state, to the people of the state, what was happening in the legislature and all of these other things.
Embarrassing nationally?
Yeah, I think so, particularly among educational circles.
The confusion between this basically irrational system where you have the University and all of these other institutions....
Yeah, and again, you know all of these folks around over the country
would say, "You mean you've made your teacher
colleges, universities? You've got
And so he would go to national meetings and perhaps hear some of this?
Well, I am sure that he did, and ....
And you heard about it as Governor?
Oh, yeah. I was Chairman of the Education Commission of the States.
People would say, "Well, what is going on?"
He was on the Executive Committee, also?
He may have been, I don't remember. Of course, Senator John Burney led the fight against it. In the Senate, I think John did that. You need to talk to him. I'm not sure, I think John was a Wake Forest graduate. But, Addison Hewlett, at that time former Speaker of the House, living in Wilmington —he's dead now—he was very much opposed to it and Addison was a political leader down there, and I suspect that he got John to fight it. Once John took something on he went in it tooth and comb.
John Burney was from the Southeast region?
He is from Wilmington, still there. He practices law down there.
Tell me a little bit more about the Board of Higher Education, what kind of person was Cameron West? He seems to have been a very able person.
Yeah, Cam has a good mind. He is retired, by the way, and lives in
Raleigh now. Cam was—has a very keen mind, but Cam also had
the street smarts as far as politics were concerned, as did Bill Friday.
I think that my perception was that Cam might have been a little more
tuned to practical politics. And Cam came up through the education turf.
He was a high school principal, coach, and Superintendent of the
Schools, then went into higher education, and all of that, as opposed to
Bill's background. Cam was from eastern North Carolina, and I
came to know him on the Board of Higher Education. And Cam was
persuasive and effective in this effort, and I guess in terms, in
retrospect, in terms of—I talked to both Cam and Bill
frequently. Cam probably had a little more influence on me in shaping my
thinking—I don't know, maybe that is not the right
word. I followed his suggestions more. Now, Bill's office was
over in Chapel Hill, and you know I saw Cam more often than I did Bill.
Cam's offices were here in town and, I guess, in a sense, we
were together more. Plus the fact in working with the Board of Higher
Education, that was a monthly meeting, as opposed to the University
Board, which is quarterly. The University Board being 100 people and,
you know, it was more or less a perfunctory type of thing for me to be
running. I was more involved with
So this was an educational experience for you?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, and that was my rationale for asking the Legislature to name the chairman of that board, so that I could get that overall picture. Because over at Chapel Hill there is a Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the University. I was only getting their side of the picture, and I felt that it was important that I get this other view.
Were you appointed—the move to get you appointed to the as Chair of the Board of Higher Education—was that your idea?
I think so, as I recall.
Growing out of your experience on the Board of Trustees and feeling isolated?
Yeah.
Cameron West and Bill Friday—the match up there seems to be interesting.
Let me nail down one thing very quickly. They were both educational professionals and they were both good, solid men with keen minds, and they both respected each other. And they agreed on many things. On this particular issue, they just simply disagreed on how it ought to be done. They are all agreeing that, you know, that we have got to something to bring some order out of this chaos. And, you know, I think, there was one idea floating around that to make the State Board of Higher Education the—make it stronger, just increase their powers a little bit, and so on. Well, that didn't resolve the issue about the University, they were still over here, and I'm not sure that the Board of Higher Education would have been able to effectively formulate the policy for the university system or not, as long as that board sat there. As long as there was an Executive Committee. So there were all kinds of scenarios that were discussed.
Originally, Cameron West —there was sort of an informal understanding that Cameron West was to be brought into the system?
Oh yes, it's like a merger of two giant corporations. What are you going to do with the management? Who is going to be Chairman and who is going to be CEO? And who is going to be the President and the Chief Operating Officer, and you know —oh yeah. We were all concerned with the Board of Higher Education going out of business. What was the staff going to do? We were able to place some of them around—I'd say that they found their own places—but we brought Cam in as—this was part of the understanding, if you will. Cameron would go there for awhile, and, of course, he did. But, you know, it was a shotgun marriage, and there was just not a good working environment so Cam moved onto the State of Illinois. But when you had two people that had fought that battle—and as hard as it was bought—one couldn't expect, I don't think, a real close working —
And it was primarily a result of that battle? They got along okay before?
As far as I know. I say as far as I know they did—I really don't know. I have no reason to think they didn't. Incidentally, the —I had something that I was going to say and it has totally slipped my mind right now. I will think of it later.
I was going to ask you about the black institutions and their role in all of this. Politically they have a role to play, in the fight. They are also presumably went through a period in which their upgrading their facilities, becoming generally better educational. They are becoming more prominent in the political scene, more concerned, the whole question of racial relations, of course.
You have got to remember that at that period of time—that was a very tense time, in terms of racial relations. As Governor I had to send the National Guard into A&T, and, of course, the students barricaded the building at Chapel Hill. We didn't sent the Guard in, we sent the Highway Patrol. But, the Vietnam War, the Youth Revolution, as it were, the whole civil rights issue, a lot of demonstrations, there was confrontation. So, the black institutions were very sensitive to what was happening around the state at that time.
When the Warren Commission, or the Warren Committee, deliberates, black institutions seemed to play a pivotal role in swinging behind, in the end, a fairly strong restructuring proposal.
They did, and in fact again, I doubt it would have happened without their support. You know, I use the political model in explaining this. I say," Well, you know a particular group, such as the blacks or the white regional institutions say, 'If it hadn't been for us it would not have happened.' That is true, but if it hadn't been for the others, it would not have happened either. You have got a pie out here and to get the whole pie, you have to have all of the pieces, and if any one of them had of pulled out their support, you wouldn't have had the whole thing." So, yes, they did play a political role, but so did a lot of others. You see what I'm getting at? All of the pieces have to be together.
This is part of a larger puzzle.
That's right.
You have suggested that the political battle for restructuring was fierce, very intense. The University went all out—kind of a "holy war" was the term, I suppose, used by Victor Bryant. You went all out.
Oh yeah, and that is why I got to be political. You know, the
educational merits
That was a final vote?
That was the final vote, yeah.
So, you knew it was real close.
I should have known. I knew enough about parliamentary procedure, but you can't keep the legislators there when they decide they want to go home. And they were caught off guard. And I was, too.
Through this period, through this special session, what kind of communication are you having with the university forces, consolidated university forces—was there much negotiation going on?
Naw. Well, I say there wasn't. As the bill worked through the committee process, Senator Russell Kirby was the Chairman of the Senate Education Committee, Higher Education Committee, and of course, they would debate, you know, the trade-offs. The size of the Board, and whether or not minorities would, you know, be guaranteed seats. Those kinds of issues. But in terms of my sitting down with Bill Friday or with the Executive Committee, something like that, we didn't—I don't recall that we did that. Bill and I would talk—I mean, he's the kind of man, you know, he doesn't destroy his lines of communication. And it may have been, I just don't recall that, you know, he would talk to me about, "Well, what about if we do this or that?" I don't recall that, it may have happened.
But you did have communication with his office or with him?
Oh, as far as I know, it wasn't really any problem about
that. I might, you know, I knew that the problem was with the problem
wasn't Bill Friday; the problem was that Executive Committee.
They had cornered Bill Friday. I know what it was I was going to tell
you now. This is just a little side bar. Okay, once it was done, all
right legally, the system as we had it was out of business, and we had
created a new system, and the new system had to hire a president. And
Bill Friday was no longer the president. And I don't
know—I knew better. I knew that they were going to hire him
again, and that didn't bother me, you know. But I called my
good friend, Cotton Robinson, who's dead now—his
brother, Jay Robinson, is at the University now. Cotton used to be out
at N.C. State and had gone to Michigan, to the University of Michigan as
Vice President, or Dean of —anyway, very high official there.
And Cotton had told me two or three times that he hoped to come back to
North Carolina. He'd
Everybody knew that Bill Friday was going to get the job.
Oh, sure, yeah...He had the support—see, the new Board was still dominated by Carolina people. In fact, as you know Roddy Jones, the current Chairman was the first, I think—unless it was Wayne Corpening. Wayne, I believe, graduated from N.C. State, but Roddy was an East Carolina man. So, you know, that's the reason I said that it would have to be some time. See, those people that went on the Board representing the University—they dominated it, still, for a number of years.
At what point, just going back to the Spring of '71, do you have a program that you want to run with—is it the Warren Commission's findings? Is that plan pretty much what you had in mind?
Well, I was willing to use that as a starting point. Yeah, and I was willing to take that and start with it, knowing that in the legislative process that, you know, anything could happen, and that it would probably come out differently that what they had proposed. Because you have your very special interests groups getting in there. And it's just like this morning, when I was listening about the Congress finally passing their Environmental Clean Air Act. You have got your environmentals on one side and your business community on the other, and you're rallying some type of compromise and nobody is really that happy with it, totally. But that is the way that it is. And so—we didn't have any plan and we had to start with something, and the Warren Commission report was a beginning point. Gosh, that has been long ago, now—I don't have total recall like some people do, and I'm not sure that I remember the details of it now, the way that it was originally. But, again, I don't think that the University leaders, the Executive Committee, University Elders that were shakers and movers, got real concerned about it at that point, because the Warren Commission were good and noble people, and they felt that, you know, that they could guide it through and come out with something that they could live with. And they didn't really—until they got over there actually in the Legislature, that's when they began to realize, "Hey, we can't live with this."
They realized that they had a problem with that?
Yeah.
Let's talk a little bit more about something you raised earlier and that is what happened in 1969 with the strike at Chapel Hill. The cafeteria strike. Tell me a little bit more about the background of that and your role in sending in the state police, particularly vis-a-vis, in regard to your relationship with Bill Friday? In 1969, when the cafeteria strikes threatened with violence—it was presumably in response to that that you sent the state police in.
Yeah, the— It was the cafeteria workers who were striking for
working conditions and salaries, and so forth, and the students took up
their cause. It wasn't student-originated to begin with. It
so happens that the leader of the cafeteria workers was from Alamance
County, my home county. And our family knew her family—I did
not know her personally. My uncle, Ralph Scott, who is dead now, was
very active in the Legislature at that time and in the Senate. He knew
this family, and he established a line of
Infringing on its authority?
Yeah, but the Chapel Hill Police Force and the Campus Security—it was much smaller than as it is now, and they just had never really had anything like that before, and they didn't know how to cope with it. Couldn't cope with it, they didn't have the resources to cope with it.
How did the decision to send the state police in, did that come from local people on the scene, SBI people on the scene?
No, it came from—only I could do that.
Was it based on—what was it based on?
Their recommendation. Well, the basic point was, are we going to leave
those students up there or are we going to get them out of the building?
nd sentiment in the state at that time—a governor, I
don't care who it is, it is always sensitive to the politics
of any situation, and a lot of people felt like, you know, are you going
to let the students run the University and take it over—you
know, who is in control here? The University being—any
university, not just Chapel Hill—the, you know, the academic
environment and so forth was such that you don't talk things
out, and you reason together, and so forth. As opposed to the
hard-nosed, hard-hat approach. And the perception was that the
University wasn't doing anything about it. It costs the
taxpayers and so forth. And what the hell you doing? Anyway, I made the
decision. And the same thing at A&T, when I sent the National
Guard in, and there was some great consternation that I did not
communicate and talk with Chancellor Dowdy. I just made the decision.
The Greensboro Police officer had gotten shot. The Greensboro City
Police Officer had gotten shot and they were taking over the top floor
dorm—which was, ironically, the Scott Dorm, named after my
Dad. Fortunately, the student body had gone home for vacation, but that
was the longest night that I ever spent because I knew that the Guard
was there, and they were waiting for my decision, and I was trying to
get all of the information I could. The Chancellor didn't
have any communication with the students that were holed up in that
dorm. So, essentially, it became a military operation. When I found out
that they were firing from the dorm windows and—the students
were and—and I was getting all of the information that I
could and so we decided somewhere during the night, around midnight or
so, that we needed to go in and just get those students out of there,
and that is when it became a military operation. We decided to wait
until dawn to do it—and went in. Fortunately, nobody got
killed. I have said it before—I really mean
There was no condition of Bill Friday's office, or local?
Not that I can recall. Not by me.
After the fact?
Not that I recall. Not by me, there may have been some on the part of my staff, because, you know, there were other things that I was doing.
Did you—you say that the Chapel Hill people were unhappy about that, did you hear from them?
Oh yeah! I heard from A&T, too. From the Chancellors. And of course they were reflecting not only their own views but the campus community, the academic side of it.
So Bill Friday didn't have communication between your office and Bill Friday's office? At least a high level contact?
I don't recall it that there was.
Do you think that the student uprising at A&T and the whole climate that we just talked about a little while ago—unrest and also public perception of disorder—did that have much to do with the restructuring, do you think? Did that affect political attitudes?
I don't really think so, I don't really think so. I don't associate those connections. No, it was more that we just needed to have a better way of governance of the system, in terms of budgetary matters and planning, and who was going to get money. Because the—you know, it was still perceived that as far as these incidents—I think that people didn't associate that with governance, as it were, in the sense of the whole restructuring issue about it. That was more or less just the climate of racial tension and so forth at that time. I don't think that the incident at Chapel Hill campus was racial, although practically all of those cafeteria workers were black. But it was over pay issues and not racial issues, I think. And the students took up the cause on that rather than racial matters.
I've got one final question. I want you to just reflect a
little bit about restructuring. It seems from this vantage
point—it has been almost 20 years—that the
restructuring worked quite well. But that it was also a significant
political victory of your Governorship.
I have asked that question, what was the most important thing that occurred, and it is hard to say, because they are different. Political victories—it ranks right up there with another one, and that was getting the tobacco tax passed. First and last and so forth.
That came in one year?
That was in—was it '69 or '71,
I've forgotten. I'll find out. But that was taking
on another sacred cow. You see, we all have our sacred cows, and the
University was one and tobacco was another. I took them both on, and
they were political. And I won both. Incidentally, I used that income
from the increased—from the cigarette tax and crown drink tax
on it at the same time. I didn't want that, at the time, but
I had to take that along with it. And it was used to get the money to
start the new public school kindergarten system. So, it was all
education-related. But I guess those two were probably the most
significant political victories. In terms of long term impact on the
state, I don't know that the restructuring of the University
has that much direct impact on individuals, I think. It's
more of a restructuring from a government standpoint, and it was a
little different philosophy of a way of doing business and budgetarily,
it —I don't know that it saved all that much
money. It just saved a lot of scrapping and fighting in the legislature.
In
But it obviously preoccupied a lot of your time.
Well, particularly in the last half of the administration, it—I have often said that my administration is not known, and I don't think that it will go down in history for having any one thing that stands out. Like Terry Sanford—the Education Governor. My father, the Good Roads Governor. I'm not known much for anything. And that doesn't bother me. I'm gratified with what we were able to do, and like most governors, I'm frustrated that I didn't get more done. But, the big story in North Carolina, during that four-year period was what didn't happen, in terms of racial unrest. And we had our problems, don't get me wrong, again A&T, and the so-called Wilmington Ten—are you a native of North Carolina?
No, I am not, my parents are.
Well, then you know the history about, we had what we call the
"Wilmington Ten." We had a few incidents like that.
But in the public schools, themselves, we worked hard. God knows, Dr.
Craig Phillips sent to the public restruction and his team was working
with our office, we strengthened the Good Neighbor Council that Dan
Moore had started and really staffed it up, and we had teams all over
the state talking, talking, talking. The blacks and whites trying down
to dampen down the hot spots and so on. So we spent a tremendous amount
of energy and time to those things, and I have always felt that if I had
that time and energy to devote to other things, then maybe we would have
gotten more visible things done. And, of course, again, as I say, what
didn't happen doesn't make the history books.
Again, I feel that was a very significant contribution.
This was the period in which the whole school desegregation thing was coming to the fore.
It was escalating, it actually started in Sanford's a little bit, and then Dan Moore. Dan Moore during his term escalated more, and sort of hit the apex during my term.
In terms of comprehensive busing plans? The Swann case, in Charlotte and Greensboro—cities that had to go through this busing and they are getting a lot of help from the state, aren't they?
So time-wise, energy-wise I suspect in my office my time was spent in there. We got some additional money. We got the cigarette tax and the crown drink tax. Incidentally, you know it is interesting how the situation that a Governor is in when certain decisions are made. You know that you are not sitting over there in this ol' big chair and sit back and say, "Well, I believe that I'm going to do this." These things evolve, again the cigarette tax was a battle loyal. My campaign manager for Governor was Jimmy Johnson, from Charlotte, at that time, retired now, from Iredell County. He was the head of the largest Coca-Cola Bottling Company in the state. Former State Senator and a successful businessman. So I talked him into coming to Raleigh to manage my campaign, and he did and was very good at it. I was successful. Okay. When I proposed that you put a tax on tobacco—on cigarettes—the opponents very astutely tacked on a—I asked for a nickel a pack for cigarettes. This would generate, I don't know,—
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
— generate something in the neighborhood of $90
million income. Well, the opponents of the Tobacco Tax said,
"Okay what you want is the money, so rather than a nickel tax
on cigarettes, we'll put two cents on cigarettes and one cent
on soft drinks." Figuring that then you're bringing
in the soft drink industry in it and Jimmy
He couldn't obviously support you, that was so much against his interests?
Oh, yeah. And of course the soft drink industry figured
that—and they supported me because Jimmy had them to,
strongly. Well, I told him later, "I didn't intend
to do it, but I made you wealthy, both you and the tobacco industry. I
asked for a nickel a pack on cigarettes and that was an increment of
five cents, which works in the vending machine industry. You took only a
tax of one cent, but you can't handle four cents of change in
a vending machine, so you upped the price to a nickel, anyway. They get
one cent and you got four cents more." And the soft drink
people the same thing. "You gave the state two cents, and you
kept three cents." You just raised your prices to a nickel. And
the truth of the matter is, the industry ain't paying a
damned thing, just the customers. You see—and of course it
didn't make any difference to them. I didn't have
much sympathy for them. That is why I say now, you know, shortfall with
legislature now, what they ought to do is levy a tax on
tobacco—and I am a farmer, or was. I didn't grow
tobacco but, and I smoke, but maybe if at the manufacturers level, and
then the people in Virginia, Puerto Rico and every where else that buy
these American cigarettes have to pay that tax. Not just us. The tobacco
companies can scream all they want to, they ain't paying it,
the consumer pays it. They pass it on. Anyhow, that is my own philosophy
about it. And so, that was—I always thought about that fight
on the tobacco tax as being
END OF INTERVIEW