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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview M-0024, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
John Jessup recalls his experiences as a black principal and public school administrator. He entered the teaching profession in 1964 as a high school English teacher in Virginia, became a principal of a North Carolina high school in the late 1970s, and moved into the Winston-Salem public schools personnel department by 1991. Diversity within courses became a major goal in the mid-1980s public school system. As a black administrator, Jessup discovered that discipline played a large role in his relationship to students and teachers. He had to demand the students' obedience to school policy, and likewise he had to make sure teachers applied school policy fairly. Some teachers resented Jessup's encroachment on their previous authority over students. Black students, on the other hand, appreciated Jessup's attempts to establish trust between students and the administration. Jessup also describes the advancements that occurred during his academic tenure as principal. He discusses his role in introducing walkie-talkies to the administrative staff as well as hiring an athletic director. Jessup explains that school desegregation posed problems for black teachers and students. The students felt ostracized from extracurricular activities in integrated settings, while the teachers lost prestige (and some lost their jobs) during the desegregation process. Jessup contends that black students require more attention because of their minority status within the school.
John Jessup discusses his employment as the principal of a North Carolina public school and as an administrator in the Winston-Salem public schools. He describes the challenges he faced as an African American as well as the changes brought about by desegregation.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is January 11, 1991, and I am in the office of Mr. John Jessup who is the personnel for Winston-Salem/Forsyth School System. Mr. Jessup, I would like for you to introduce yourself and say that you know that this interview is being recorded.
I know that this interview is being recorded.
Mr. Jessup, I am doing some research and I sent you a questionnaire that you responded to. I am interviewing Black principals who were principals of high schools in 1964, and Black principals who were principals in 1989. Back in 1964, there were over 200 Black principals of high schools. When I sent to the State Department last year to find out how many Black principals were principals of high schools in 1989, I received a list of 41 and of those 41 some of them were principals of alternative schools and not what you would call the traditional high school. You are on the list as being a principal here in this system. Now you have moved to another position but what I want you to try to do is to move back into your principalship role back in 1989, and give me some information about your principalship there. First thing I want to know is how did you become a principal?
This is the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County School System and we are consolidated. The other thing that is interesting that you would introduce to 1964, because that was the first year I taught. I taught in 1964, so it is ironic that that would be the case.
My first year of teaching was 1965. I want you to tell me how you became a high school principal?
Does that go back to how I got into administration?
Yes.
My first job was in Martinsville, Virginia. I was there for five years
then I moved to Roanoke, Virginia and I was there for five years as a
teacher in both systems. When I was in Martinsville, Virginia I started
graduate work and my major which was English. Then I decided since
Virginia paid you for your Master's degree regardless of what it was in
that maybe I should increase my flexibility which would give me the
option of changing directions if I desired. Therefore I went to Radford
University and received a Master's degree in guidance. At that time I
was scheduled to become a counselor at Stonewall Jackson Junior High
School but I was informed that the need at the high school which was
So you never did serve as a counselor, did you?
I never did serve as a counselor. In fact that was my dream when I was in Roanoke just to be a counselor. But when I went to Hickory instead of being a counselor, I became an assistant principal of the school, coordinating guidance services so I became the coordinator and I had a chairperson who served under me for two years and after that with his death I became the coordinator and we eliminated the chairperson for the last two years in Hickory. So that is how I became an assistant principal. After being there for four years I received an opportunity to come to Winston-Salem/Forsyth School System to work as an assistant principal at Reynolds High School. I was there for a year and a half and was selected to become principal of Kernersville Junior High School. That is how I got into the principalship. I was in that position for four and one half years with the school reorganization I became principal of Mt. Tabor High School. I served in that capacity for six years with the last year being this past year.
What is your present position?
My present position is the title that was given me, Division Director of Personnel Services. That title is a replacement for Assistant Superintendent of Personnel Services. I may be in line for some of the titles that had been advocated by the State but at the same time most assistants have not followed through with that change.
Now I want you to tell me something about Mt. Tabor High School. The responsibilities that you had and how you dealt with them and I will give you specific areas that I want you to address. First I want you to tell me just about the school and how many students you had, how many teachers, etc.
I think it was a beautiful campus and a beautiful school and a nice
facility. One main inadequacy was lack of storage. Beyond that I would
say that it was adequate almost in every way especially with the
additions
How did you go about supervising?
I guess two or three ways I did that. First of all we developed job descriptions for the assistant principals and especially when it got to evaluations. We developed that in the beginning. We developed job descriptions for our secretaries so they would know their role description more than anything else. So we all had our roles with the realization that in many instances we overlaped and at the same time we had specific responsibilities. So that was the initial thing. We try also to provide a handbook for staff members that basically covered most of the major things that would take place during the year. Of course we had our student handbook. When I left we had a sheriff on campus. That was the second year that we had had one on campus. All the high schools have them and have a liaison office on campus so that of course helped but after you get beyond the paper work it is a matter of responding to needs, responding to different situations that are brought to your attention and a matter of just walking around just looking at things and giving directions.
In your assistant principals job descriptions were
Yes. In fact we basically divided the staff from one to four. The last year I evaluated more than they but there were probably other years when I didn't evaluate as many they. One unique feature that I had the first five years that I did not have the last year was that I had a Black assistant principal for five years and I did not have one the last year. I had to work probably harder to compensate for the fact that I did not have the Black assistant who was in contact with the Black students and when I say compensate, I just had to work harder on getting to know the students myself.
What was the ratio of Blacks in your school?
Probably ranged somewhere for thirty-one to thirty-three percent.
So the Black principal had been the one that made them feel a part.
Yes, and of course I worked to do the same thing but you can't get around it he was out there more than I, had closer ties than I, with many of the kids and as problems arose we can always consult about those problems and work on those areas but with him gone it was necessary for me to win the confidence of enough minority students that either by directly or indirectly they would feel comfortable if they didn't feel comfortable with anybody else coming to me to talk about their problems.
What about your teacher selection?
I would say that in most instances I made the decision concerning staff members. When we reorganized the staff members who were already there, that was in '84-85, who were at the school remained but we also had to bring in I imagine we doubled the staff almost at least within the three year period we probably doubled the staff. The first year we did not have a senior class. We had 9-11 and the main reason being students who became seniors and thought that they were going to be at any given school were grandfathered in. So most of the students at that time rather than go to little ole Mt. Tabor went back to Reynolds High School or wherever they could go. Nobody wanted to go to Mt. Tabor. So we did not have a senior class. But by the time I left they didn't want to go anywhere else.
But you would get your applications from central personnel?
In most instances they would make recommendations and they would give me
people to consider and
What about curriculum and instruction?
Well, curriculum and instruction--I guess my basic philosophy was you're
probably not aware of the fact but in this school system we have five
different levels, for instance in English. That is how many basic
courses you can be in--average courses, advanced courses. You can be in
honors courses and you can be in advanced placement courses. So all of
those are possibilities. I guess you could call it homogeneous
group--some people call it track. Right now it is very popular to talk
about heterogeneous grouping and it is a very popular subject in this
school system and we are moving toward that thank goodness. But I talked
about it some when it was not popular to talk about. My basic philosophy
I guess in regard to what we already had in place was that we should be
as anxious to move up kids as we are to move down kids and working
toward creating fairness in the placement of kids, especially in the
placement of kids and the concern about the minorities, so many of them,
being in the basic classes and average classes but especially basic
classes and the desire to have as few in those classes as we could. We
eliminated one year a basic class. We did last year on an experimental
basis, eliminating a basic class in biology. We hadn't had any basic
kids who passed the state test and last year we eliminated it as a basic
class and gave them a new name. They were average students, studying
average stuff and most of those kids passed and I don't think anyone
failed that class. It was a small class. Just that the name change made
a tremendous difference. We had a situation in regards to social
studies. The lady made a mistake and told the kids that they were in an
average class and then she discovered later, the kids discovered before
she did, that it was not really supposed to be and she said it was
amazing the difference that it made in the way those kids responded. So
therefore, we changed the class to an average class. So we tried a
number of things like that in regards to curriculum but we had an
established curriculum of course that you just couldn't change so the
main thing that you had to do was to work toward young people being
treated fairly in regard to placement and to work toward young people
having the same opportunities when it came to quality teachers. Another
part of my philosophy is that basic kids deserve the same quality
teaching as higher level kids. Therefore, they deserve teachers with the
same level of experience, same level of education and everything else so
rather than having a basic class and a basic teacher, we let everybody
share and the teacher who teaches the AG kids should also have a class
of basic kids. Therefore nobody is going out with basic kids but
everybody can come to that class with freshness and at
Discipline.
We try to be tough. Dan Pickett was a tough disciplinarian and of course I try to be tough.
That was your Black administrator?
Of course he was the main tough man and I try to be the second tough man.
The main thing that we emphasize-we try to emphasize two things. You are
going to be treated fairly and secondly we are not going to tolerate a
lot of stuff. Those two things we try to establish. When I say that you
are going to be treated fairly, when I went to Mt. Tabor teachers didn't
appreciate my coming and asking what happened. They didn't appreciate my
saying, "Would you explain the situation. The student said this. What do
you have to say? Tell me about the situation so that I can understand it
better." They felt that I was questioning their integrity but after a
little while they realized that that was my way of doing things. I
believe that when you are fair in working with people you are always
going to have somebody who is dissatisfied with you because the teacher
is not always right and the student is not always right and the parent
is not always right. So therefore, with that being the case there were
teachers in some instances who didn't care for the way that I dealt with
the situation but I felt that I was dealing with it fairly. I never
tried to embarrass a staff member at any time in conferences or so forth
and I think that they would say that was the case. If it was obvious
that they were wrong, then the way I look at it we ought to just
apologize and say look we are going to try not to do it again and if
there were uncertainty then I would say let's compromise and if it is
obvious that we're right then I'm going to say we're going to stand on
it so that is the way I try to deal with the kids. Try to treat them
fairly and I believe they knew we tried to do something. The other thing
in regard to discipline. You can't beat personally contact. When I went
over there, the kids wouldn't let you touch them. They probably don't do
that in Statesville. The kids didn't want you to. They' de say, "Don't
you put your hands on me." By the time we left I could walk up them and
put my arm around the guys and chat with them and then have my little
private conversation with them and it didn't bother them at all and I
really appreciate that fact. Another thing too we had a policy against
wearing hats in the building. For instance, the last year that I was
there we had problems and we encouraged them not to wear hats and they
would take them off and put them back so I let them know that we have
reminded you so from this point on I will take your hat and I basically
told the staff that I would
And you would keep the hat?
What I did was the first time I took a hat I would take the hat to my office and write it up and he had to personally come to get his hat. I'd say, if you ever repeat, that is my hat. You might get it back at the end of the year. So I collected hats. Teachers didn't like it too well because in many instances they felt that they didn't get the respect that they deserved when they worked on that particular policy but what I never could get them to understand that what I was doing was disciplining them in the hall before they got to the classroom. As Dan Pickett and I said once as we stood in the hall and some kids were trying to get to class and they were talking, some of these kids don't have to be on time anywhere except school. Some of these kids never experience any kind of discipline except school. So what I strongly believed in was the fact that every time that kid responded to me whether it meant him walking down the hall and my grabbing his hat off or whether it meant that he handed the hat to me or whether it meant I had to take him down to the office with me and deal with that situation. Every time I did that it was breaking a little bit of the resistance that he would have when he got to the classroom. That every time the person made me it was developing that discipline in the classroom. People didn't understand what I was talking about--most of them didn't. Also, it gave me an opportunity to get to know my kids. A couple of years ago, I said, he's one of my football players, a Black boy, I said I want to talk to you a minute. He said, what, Mr. Jessup. I say you know something-- the way you walk and the way you look and the way you talk you try to be tough. He started laughing and I said you know something, I believe that you really think that you can intimidate some of the people right here. He just laughed. I said, I tell you one thing there is just only one bad dude on this campus and that's me. I said, there is only going to be one and I said do you understand what I am talking about. He said, yes. But you know at that point in time I could talk to the kids in that particular manner. I can think of one situation last year. I try to make it very clear to them concerning discipline. Why I was doing things.
An example, a kid threw something--a piece of candy or something and hit
me above the eye. Four guys were standing there. I took the four down to
the office and told them. Look guys, just tell who it was and I'll deal
with it and that will be it. Nobody would tell. I said I'll tell you
what, I'll give one piece of paper in front of you and let me tell you
something, you're not going to leave here without a name on that piece
of paper. I said it can be your name or somebody else's name but I want
a name on that piece of paper and when I have my name you can go. It was
the guy that I suspected. So I sat down with him and I told him, look
I'm going to suspend you
Tell me about transportation and how you dealt with it.
I delegated it to my assistant principals.
How many buses did you have coming to the school?
We may have had about twenty or twenty-five.
Utilization of funds.
Oh, that is a biggie! If you want to be fired you can be fired quicker
over that than anything else. The first thing I had a tremendous
advantage and then I had a lady who was probably one of the most honest
people I've ever met in all my days. She used to give me strength when
she felt that I was going in the wrong direction when it came to
applications or policy. But if I had a million dollars I think I would
trust her to carry it to the bank and deposit it and that is the truth.
It's a tremendous advantage to have a person you have that much
confidence in when it comes to handling finances. In addition to that
she was a person who really worked hard so that to me in regard to
finances that is the key thing. To have a person that you can really
have confidence in. But beyond that when I came to Mt. Tabor we had
fund-wise probably less than $10,000. When I left Mt. Tabor we were in
much better shape. I left with about
Well good, that's good. You're a Trail blazer.
Well, I wouldn't say that we did that much but we did a few things.
Cafeteria management.
I had two good managers. The main thing I tried to do was establish a good working relationship with the managers and I did that. I tried to emphasize our support of them because they are basically an independent identity of the school but at the same time I realize that I am responsible for the overall facility. I'm responsible for the overall program. We had excellent relationships. If I saw them right now we'de have to hug. So relationship is a key thing. I'm a strong believer in that you have to develop good working relationships with those with whom you work. So that was a key thing. We also made it as attractive as we could. We were able to get booths and of course we were one of the first schools to do that. The Food Services Department worked with us, we had tables in the middle of the floor and on the side which would make you think that you were at McDonalds so that was nice. But we tried to do what was required of us maintenance-wise at all times and we tried as much as possible to deal with the students when they broke rules and regulations and when they misused their meal tickets those who were on free meals. One thing I used to do very often that I hope is an indicator of my support is that I would come in during the morning and stand there in the cafeteria while the students were eating breakfast but what disturbed me very much was that we had students who were on free breakfast and they would leave their cartons and plates on the table. That really bothered me but they would do it. My standing there of course made a difference but what would bother me again was when maybe one day I couldn't get there and they would do the same thing and I never really corrected that situation. Maybe I didn't have the creativity to correct it.
Buildings and grounds.
Now in regard to the buildings. We did have a responsibility because I
know the school system also had the responsibility. We projected needs
and certainly we indicated that we needed more classrooms and as I said
from the time that I first went to Mt. Tabor the first time and I had
gotten the job we completed about twenty classrooms. So we projected
those needs. In addition to that we tried to influence where the
building took place. Right now I feel that we should have placed the
last addition across the street. Also we tried to project future lab
needs. We told
What was the relationship that Mt. Tabor had with the community?
Overall we had a good relationship. At least I had the impression that we
did. I tried to cultivate the relationship that we had; we had our
enemies but I guess everybody has those. As I said, if we can believe in
fairness you're going to have some people who are going to be displeased
with your administration. But overall I think people would say that we
were sensitive to their desires. We can always respond to desires but as
a whole I would say that when dealing with problems I would say--let me
point out what one principal said. We have the most difficult job among
the high school principals. He was White. Because Reynolds West and Mt.
Tabor had a clientele, a very demanding one and he said you have the
most difficult job though because you are Black. I think my strongest
suit probably is interacting
Do you think Mt. Tabor had become a part of that community that 9-12 school is now a part of that community and folks feel that it is their school?
Yes, there are two reasons that I would say that. One is that right now
you see advertised in the paper and basically you don't see it many
times for anybody else you won't see it almost for anybody else. You
might see it once in a while for Reynolds but not often. But you often
see it's in the Mt. Tabor district when it comes to realty. The second
thing is that it would be hard at this time we are talking about
redistricting. Boy you start drawing those lines you are going to have
an uproar. The same kinds of problems you had when we became Mt.
Tabor--kids not wanting to leave Reynolds. Boy you are going to have an
uproar if you start cutting up Mt. Tabor. It's going to be all right now
if you keep Mt. Tabor in its place and add some to it but if you want
problems, you start sending them back to Reynolds
How much administrative power or control do you think that you had over that school site and your responsibilities?
It is very questionable as to how much. I was in a position to influence decisions and I was in a position to make decisions but I was fully aware of all the uncontrollable factors that existed around me. When I made decisions there were two or three things that I used to think about when I made decisions. One, underlining discipline and everything else--is it fair, is it the right thing to do? The answer was yes. At the same time I realized that intepreting the rules and regulations I could go up to a certain point beyond that then I depended on somebody else to support me. Often I would go up to that point and not go beyond. A couple of times I went beyond one and it was in regard to grading policy. Our grading policy is so bad so I created a grading policy for our school. The teacher's organization thought it was a fine plan but in a final analysis I won. Another situation was in regard to clubs trying to make things fair for all kids. I tell you these clubs are very clickish. I worked hard toward that and that is one thing I can say right now that in spite of my best effort the job is still undone and I worked hard on that. Those are a couple of things that I really went out on a limb concerning that nobody else did and really those two situations are still undone. I can't sit here and say that--right now I can show you that in spite of my efforts those years the results didn't change. But I knew it was the right thing to do.
You do feel that you had as much power as any principal today has. Do you feel that?
Well, I think of it in terms of this. There are some principals who have a lot of contacts. They have clout--they have contacts. I've never had clout or contacts so naturally that puts us to a disadvantage but I never moved up nor have I moved from one place to another due to contacts. I don't know if it has anything to do with my ability or not but I would dare say this that I think probably overall I've done probably about as much if not more simply because I've tried things and felt that it would be difficult for somebody to say you're wrong. I felt that it was in the best interest of kids and school and that it would be hard for anybody else to say you're wrong and therefore I probably have done a little bit more exploring than some of the other people even thou they may have had the contacts. Certainly on the surface they have not but maybe they were satisfied also with the way things were.
How did desegregation of schools affect your role as a principal?
Desegregation has not taken place since I became principal.
No, it hasn't taken place since you became principal. Do you think this goal desegregation of schools has affected your role.
Oh, the principalship role. Well, one thing for sure you don't have as many Black principals. That is for sure. Therefore, Black administrators on the high school level do not have the influence, the contact, the networking, young people do not have the role models. All those are factors that they've lost and that description is representative of basically every other category in teaching positions, student positions, all the way down the line. It is interesting. When I was in Hickory I was asked to speak to an all White group. I was the only Black there. They asked me to speak on the advantages or disadvantages of desegregation. And I wrote my speech and when I got there and looked around and I was the only Black one there. I said to myself maybe I ought to change my speech.
Did you have enough courage to go on and deliver?
I went ahead and delivered but it was work. Now just think about some of the things that you're about that one problem with desegregation that came was the fact that for some reason Black cheerleaders could not cheer loud enough to be a part of the cheerleading squad. And students who used to be good in the band can no longer play well enough to be part of the band and only the exceptional athlete can play on the football team. Principals, people who were principals, became directors of federal programs and teachers who were hired on the high school level became elementary teachers. Of course, I ended by saying that there is still room, there's hope, better use of funds, better use of facilities all these things we have going for us.
I want you to tell me, I think I already know the answer, did you enjoy your job and why?
I enjoyed it very much but I reflex on the relationships that I dealt with the staff members and the students. When I think of the hard times and the kinds of problems and difficulties that we had to jointly overcome as a team like considering the fact that we started up a high school 9-12 and when I think of the trials and tribulations that we went through and as a team we were able to overcome them it is just a delight. I don't think about Mt. Tabor very often because I am so busy here but when I see a staff member or when I see a student it just warms my heart.
What do you consider the major problem of your principalship?
If I could say, I'de probably say the stress level. The stress level is very high and the ironic thing is I was in a human relations workshop where we had some principals talking about the stress level like administrators. I learned that we had one thing in common. Very frequently I think many--often in our position we feel that we can't afford to make a big mistake and that really makes it a stressful situation. Maybe that's without cause or for some reason it's almost like you feel you have to be the superman and so therefore that can really cause a lot of stress on the job trying not to make mistakes.
What do you consider the most rewarding about your principalship?
The most rewarding thing I suppose was watching the school develop and
grow and we had many outstanding achievements that really made me feel
good. Such as we started, I suppose about three years, academic
competition teams and the first two years we won the playoffs in the
school system. We beat Reynolds both of those years in the playoffs.
Last year we won the regular season championship and then won the
playoffs. The preceding year we placed second and then won the playoffs
and I take much delight in that. Another thing our Quiz Bowl team or IQ
Team, one of the two, went to the state, played in the state finals and
won. We were state champions so we are very pleased with that. We had
tremendous academic achievements overall and we just prospered. That's
is all I can say. We prospered academically. Athletically we prospered
but we did not go as far as I desired in football but I would say almost
in every area that I can think of we
Did you have any problems with the supervision of your Black teachers? Did you find that you had a unique problem with the Black teachers. I had one administrator that brought that out.
The amazing thing is that is actual reality in many instances--Black
principals having problems with Black teachers. No, I did not. I had no
problems with my Black teachers. In fact I felt that some of my Black
teachers were some of my strongest supporters. I talked a little bit
about that in a seminar back in the fall. I thought I said some good
things and now I can't recall what I said. But I said I felt that the
key thing was simply the fact that I felt that Black teachers didn't
really expect any special attention as
So you are saying that fairness does not always mean equality. So you're saying that Black students need a little more. It's being fair to them to give them a little more.
That is exactly right. Fairness isn't just cutting it down the center. Sometimes somebody just might need a little piece of that just to make it fair. But I don't know why and that bothers me. But I hear that and sometimes I hear talk about it but that is a reality.
Just point out one thing. The fact that when you see things that you know
are unfair, you don't have to make it a Black and White issue. There is
a time and place for everything. I can see clubs that are clickish. I
can see that but I didn't make it a Black and White issue but I moved on
the situation. There was a White student who came to me and told me, Mr.
Jessup, I have applied for the Anchor Club for three years. I had all
the qualifications that
Since we have such a small number of Black administrators at the high school level in the State of North Carolina if you knew of an aspiring young Black who wanted to be a high school principal, what kind of advice would you give to that person?
I suppose the advice I've given to most is that you should try to get all the different experiences you can. New experiences--it worked in our King Burger place. Somehow that experience can help you in life. It is probably helping you right now in the classroom. If you played on the football team, you learned something there that is helping you right now in the classroom. So try to get a piece of as many experiences as you can, volunteer for things, and help out with things whereby you are learning, make it as continuous as possible. Develop as much background as you can, and the other thing is be sensitive to the needs of people. You have your own needs but remember other people have needs also. Try to see to their needs even before you see to your own needs and then the other thing would be try to be fair. Use the question as often as possible, is it right or is it fair. And be honest with yourself in your response because if you are not fair eventually it is going to catch up with you and those are probably my main recommendations. Get as many experiences and I'm talking about first hand experiences by educational experiences, and work experiences and all those kinds of experiences.
I really appreciate you taking the time. This has been a really good interview and you've shared a lot with me and I appreciate you taking the time because you are a busy man and I know it but this research will hope someone I hope. I know that it is helping me to achieve one of my goals but I think from what I have heard from the different persons that I've interviewed there is going to be something in it that is going to be of value to administrators, especially young Black administrators who are coming behind us. Thank you so much.
You are welcome.
END OF INTERVIEW