© This work is the property of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text.
MP3 file derived from WAV preservation master, which was derived from original analog cassettes.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition.
The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original.
The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in Libraries Guidelines.
Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity references.
All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as "
All em dashes are encoded as —
Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
Q-0094, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Lillian Taylor Lyons was born and raised in Oxford, North Carolina, in the early twentieth century. Lyons begins her interview by describing her family history, reaching back to her parents' experiences in Virginia and North Carolina. Her father was born enslaved in 1850 and accompanied his master with the Confederate army during the Civil War, while her mother was born just on the cusp of the Civil War and, according to Lyons, was not enslaved. After briefly explaining her father's work as an expert carpenter, Lyons shifts to a discussion of her mother's education in a school for African American children in Granville County, North Carolina, which was run by white Canadians following the Civil War. Education was important in Lyons' family, and she describes in some detail how she and her siblings all went to the Mary Potter school in Oxford. Following her own graduation in 1919, Lyons attended college and became a school teacher. In addition to describing her family history, her education, and her work as a teacher, Lyons devotes considerable attention to a discussion of race relations, particularly as it related to skin tone, in Oxford. Oxford was especially "forward-looking" in its views on race relations, as evidenced by the high value placed on African American education, according to Lyons. Researchers interested in the local history of Granville County will find the final third of the interview particularly useful for Lyons' extensive comments on Granville County families and their interactions.
Born and raised in Oxford, North Carolina, in the early twentieth century, Lillian Taylor Lyons discusses her family history, her education, and her career as a teacher. Lyons also speaks at length about race relations in Oxford, arguing that Oxford was especially "forward-looking" in comparison to other Southern communities.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Today is Sunday, September 11, 1994. I'm visiting with Mrs. Lillian Taylor Lyons. The address is 210 Alexander Avenue. Mrs. Lyons has been living here all her childhood until she went off to school, to college. Mrs. Lyons, tell me about your childhood and what was going on in your life as you went along in school.
Well, I started school at five and a half years old. I was carried by my
first grade teacher, Mrs. Annie Lassiter, who lived two doors from me,
down the street from me. The school building was located on Orange
Street in the two hundred block. It is now the home of a retired
teacher, Mr. Charles Gregory, who was born in Oxford and taught here
through the years.
Mrs. Lyons, how did you get back and forth to school when you was going to school?
I walked. It was a distance of approximately a mile. When I was late, I ran all the way.
You say you ran all the way to school. Was there other brothers and sisters that was going with you to school, or were you going by yourself?
I was going by myself. My brother, Leonard Taylor, was seven years older than me, and he was in Mary Potter High School at that time. The buildings were in the vicinity of McClanahan Street and Lanier Avenue.
Did you enjoy going to school?
I loved school because I knew how to read and write when I entered school.
What grade was your last grade at Orange Street School, at Mr. Gregory's house, or the school that was in the back of the house? Explain to me where the school was.
The school building was on the corner of Orange Street and—.
Piedmont.
No, that's not Piedmont, is it?
Mrs. Lyons, what grade did you leave the Orange Street School?
I left at the end of sixth grade and went to Mary Potter, which was the day and boarding school. Mary Potter was located, the buildings were located on the property from Lanier Street and McClanahan Street.
What year were you born?
I was born November 18, 1902.
So what age would you be today?
As of today, I'm two weeks from my ninety-second,
I'm two months from my ninety-second
birthday.
Could you tell me about your parents and their affiliation with Oxford. Was both of your parents born in Oxford?
My father was born in Sudan, Virginia, near Clarksville. He was born on April 9, 1850. My mother was born where I live now, at 210 Alexander Avenue, on December 22, 1960, the daughter of Charles Lewis and Lucinda Gregory Lewis.
You say your mother was born in 1960. I think your mother was born 1860?
Eighteen and sixty.
OK. And how long the land has been in your family, on your mother's side?
The land has been in the family since between 1859 and 1860.
1859. Tell us a little about your mother and father, far as wanting you and your sisters and brothers to get a good education.
My mother worked part of the time in New Jersey. That was during the [light time] and the times of my brother, Leonard Taylor, who became Dr. Leonard A. Taylor, a dentist. There were eight children. The oldest was Edgar Taylor, Lucy Taylor, [Lattie] Taylor, Blanche, Winifred, [Schotia], Leonard, and me.
So what did your father do? And what did he contribute to raising y'all and how he wanted y'all to have a decent education? What kind of work did he do?
My father was a carpenter? He worked at various jobs during my early years in Granville and Vance, the surrounding counties. In later years, by the time I was in fifth and sixth grade, he was working at the Oxford Orphanage, which was three blocks up the street from us. The orphanage is still in operation and is run by the Masons of North Carolina. Of course, I mean the white Masons of North Carolina. There was also a Negro orphanage in Oxford at the same time. That was located about two miles from my house down in the lower Raleigh Street area.
Could your father read and write?
My father could read a little bit and write a little bit, but he became
very proficient without it. In latter years, he and three other Negroes
were working very proficiently. Mr. Ed Tyler, Mr. William Alston and my
father made all of the work at the carpenters' shop at the
white orphanage up the street two blocks from my house. They
Did you ever know your father, your grandfather and grandmother on your father's side?
No, I didn't know them, but I did know my Aunt Jane and Uncle John [Blanks]. They lived in what was Sudan, Virginia, a part of the Clarksville, Virginia area. And the train ran from—the railroad—. The train ran from Durham to [Keysville] and passed right by my house. And we used to travel over to Virginia to visit my Aunt Jane and Uncle Johnny [Blanks].
OK, let's talk about your mother. Did you ever know, on your mother's side, your grandmother and your grandfather?
Yes, I knew Grandma. Grandma was born in Granville County near where we live now. She was the daughter of Charles Lewis and Lucinda Gregory Lewis. My grandfather worked at the dispensary. I imagine that was the distribution of the corn liquor that was being made in the county. And my grandmother worked in the orphanage up the street from me.
Which one of your grandparents on your mother's side could read and write, your grandfather or your grandmother?
Both of them could read and write.
On your mother's side, how old was your mother when she passed? And what year?
My mother died in October, 18 and—my mother was born November
22,
Did she have any experience with slavery? Or did her mother or father have experience with it?
Both of my parents had—my mother didn't have any experience with slavery, but my father did. My father's master was John Lyle Taylor, who went to war during the Civil War and my father went with his master, as I mentioned before, and he was at Appomattox Courthouse when Lee surrendered to—.
Was he with—does his name come from the Taylor's plantation, or the slave owner, Mr. Taylor that owned him? Where did he get Taylor from, or that was his name from his father before?
That was his name from his father. His father was John Taylor and his mother was Mary Puryear Taylor.
Now, we are talking about your mother's father and grandfather. Which one of your mother's parents that experienced slavery that was not treated right, or how was they treated? Or was they free?
My mother was—they had an interesting life. There was no slavery. My mother was born here at the same spot where I was born. And they had no experience with slavery because my mother went to school here and her teachers were Canadians, white people who had come down from the north, from Canada, to teach the Negro children after the end of the war. The place where my mother attended school was near where the site of the graded school was, where I attended.
Who was her principal? Was Rutherford Pattilla, or Dr. Patilla her principal?
No, I can't remember. Mr. Pattilla was principal of the graded school that I attended, Mr. Walter Pattilla. He left the graded school in 1914, the same year that I graduated from elementary school and entered Mary Potter. My brother had attended the graded school and he graduated from Mary Potter in 1914 and went on to what was Biddle University in Charlotte at that time. The name of the university is now Johnson C. Smith University, the Presbyterian institution.
How far did all of your sisters and brothers go? Did all of y'all get to the eighth grade?
My brother Leonard finished Mary Potter in 1914 and went to Biddle University, which is now Johnson C. Smith University. And my sister Winifred went to St. Augustine's College in Raleigh. She was in school with the Gibson sisters that have been in the national newspapers recently and are still living. They are both over a hundred years old.
Did any more of your sisters and brothers finish high school? Everybody finish high school?
All of them finished school at Mary Potter.
What was your life like growing up as a kid in the community? Give me some ideas about the community and your neighbors and the people in the community, how close-knit you all were and you had close families and everybody worked together.
It was a very close neighborhood. The property on the street where I lived was owned by two families, the Hicks family and the Lassiter family. Mrs. Lassiter and Mrs. Hicks were sisters and their children grew up and went away to school just as my sisters and brothers did.
Who were some of the outsanding people in the community that went around helping people? If you needed them, you always could depend on them.
We had an orphanage in Oxford at that time, which was supported by the Masons. Dr. Pattilla, who was principal of the graded school when I finished, his father was a Baptist minister and also taught school. The house where Professor Patilla was born is still in erection and in good condition on Raleigh Street in Oxford.
Whereabout on Raleigh Street? Give me an idea what vicinity the house is—.
It's in a thickly-settled, all-Negro vicinity. All of the Negroes around owned their own homes, then, and other businesses now.
Can you tell me something about your church you went to and what role your mother and father and how close-knit y'all were to the church?
We were—my parents—I grew up in St. Peters Methodist Church.
Where was that church located at when you grew up?
It was on Orange Street—.
And Hillsborough?
On Hillsborough Street in the 200 block. And it was a part of the North Carolina Methodist conference, which meant that we had several different ministers during my lifetime: Reverend [Newsome], Reverend Baxter, Reverend Cook, who was uncle of Miss Annie Lassiter who had taught me. He went to Harvard University in Massachusetts. He has one daughter living in North Carolina now in the Raleigh area, but I haven't kept in touch with her.
Were your mother or your father a Sunday School teacher or were your
My mother and father were both very close. Practically every Sunday at the end of the sermon, my daddy had to get up and make his speeches. Course, some people in the church probably got tired of listening to him. But Papa didn't sit down until he felt like it. He was typical Richmond Taylor—at church, in the community and in the town, and very well-known. Both him and my mother.
Did y'all walk to church and walk back?
We walked to church. All of my life we didn't—it was just about a mile away from us, so it wasn't—we had no inconvenience from attending church. I am now a member of the same congregation, St. Peters United Methodist Church. I am the oldest member of the church as of this date.
And how old are you?
I am ninety—I will be ninety-two years old on the eighteenth of November, which is a month away.
What year did you finish Mary Potter?
I finished Mary Potter in 19 and 19.
And what college did you go to after finishing Mary Potter?
During the summer of 19 and 19, they had had summer school classes for teachers and prospective teachers. I attended the summer school classes at Mary Potter. They were taught by Professor—I can't think of his first name now—Professor Cozart. And they gave an examination at the end of the six-week summer school. I was only eighteen years old, but I took the examination and passed it and got a teacher's certificate.
Did you use it before you went off to college?
Yes, I—the summer of 1919 when I finished Mary Potter, I went to A&T University to summer school. One of the next-door neighbors who grew up with me, Mrs. Ruth Hicks—she was Miss Ruth Hicks—she was a winter student at Bennett College, but they had summer school at A&T College. And I went to summer school the same summer. And, as I said before, I had passed the examination that they gave at the end of the session in Oxford.
And I—my mother consented and I was the only eight—I wasn't even eighteen at that time, because that was in September and my birthday was in November. So I went to [Badin], North Carolina. Mrs. Payne, who was Miss Ruth Hicks, she had applied at [Badin] and also she was a student at Bennett College in Greensboro, our Methodist church college. And she was a—she had filed an application at [Badin] and also in Oxford. And she got the—was accepted at both places.
So, my mother was in New Jersey visiting my older sisters at the time, and I called my mother and asked permission. So, I went to [Badin] at seventeen years old and started teaching. And today, I have friends living in the Philadelphia area whose parents were living in the [Badin] area at that time. [Badin] was near [Leachville], which was the processing area for cotton goods and materials.
Mrs. Lyons, if your mother could read and write, therefore—and your grandparents was in slavery—somewhere your mother and father, or your mother or your father had some white in them, or they was—either worked in the house—they was house slaves and they wasn't field slaves to learn how to read and write at their age. Which one of your mother or father do you think?
Well, as I said before, my father grew up in Virginia, but my mother went
to
Could you explain to me why Canadians came to Oxford, how they got here. Were they seminary people of the church? Were they affiliated with the church?
I'm not quite clear, but they—there were several of them in the area, because Miss—there was a Miss Hawkins who was a white woman that was working at the black orphanage that was in Oxford at the same time. And they were a part of the group of whites who came south to teach the Negroes after slavery. There are several institutions in different parts of the south. I am now connected with Penn Center in Paris Island, South Carolina, that was operated by Canadians who came south to work for Negroes, work in the Negro schools and other various industries.
What did the whites in this town thought about outsiders coming in teaching? Were they staying in the white people's homes, or were they staying in the black people's homes?
They stayed in white homes, I'm sure. Relations have always
been good in Oxford, all my life, between blacks and whites. They are at
the worst point now. I was just saying to—last week, at the
podiatrist's office, I ran into Mrs. Katherine
Royster—and I was saying to her that Oxford isn't,
from several standpoints, isn't the same as far as
relationships between Negroes and whites. They're not as good
as they were back fifteen
Mrs. Lyons, I have done research in Oxford on schools, and there are approximately sixty or seventy schools for blacks from the first to the fifth, or from the first to the fourth or third grade. Therefore, I think that each black back in the early 1900s did have the opportunity to learn how to read and write. Can you explain to me why this county was so dedicated in trying to educate their people?
Well, it was probably a attitude that developed way before my time or your time, before each of us were born, and before our parents were born, that there have always been good relations. All of my life, Negroes and whites have always worked together. Negroes worked in white people's homes. But they—they went to separate schools, of course, but there's other ways been good relationships.
It was just in the late years that such things as the, as the Penn—I can't remember the name of the relationships. But the tobacco factories and other industries developed in Oxford, and Negroes and whites have always worked in the industries in Oxford, the tobacco industry and carpentry work, electricians and what-have-you. Oxford has always been a forward-looking town.
Mrs. Lyons, I have looked into some history and how did this town attract doctors like Dr. Bowie and doctors back in the early 1900s where other communities in the south didn't have a black doctor before the early '20s or '30s? We had black dentists and four or five black doctors in this town in the early 1900s.
Well, I'm sure a lot of that was due to the fact that Dr. and Mrs. Shaw, who were president, and the teachers who came to—Dr. Shaw's wife came from Pennsylvania down here to work. And there has always been [intermingling] and relationships in education and industries in Oxford all of my life. The industries have always existed in Oxford, even the tobacco industry, because tobacco grew in the county. But other industries—now, as of now, Revlon, the big cosmetic industry is one of the biggest industries in Oxford, and there have always been good relationships between Negroes and blacks. Of course, there was prejudice and it still is. It's more prevalent now than it was a few years ago.
Can you tell me about the teachers that went to school and they finished the eighth grade and they started teaching and some of them did a very good job in these schools throughout the county? How was they picked? Or why did they work so hard trying to educate in the community until they could go to summer school and learn?
Well, getting a teacher's certificate—some of—a lot of them who were in eighth grade and going away to Shaw University and to Bennett College. There were always plenty of teachers in Granville County because they were smart, intelligent, and they had gotten good backgrounds in Oxford at Mary Potter and they went to summer school at Shaw University, in Charlotte, and Bennett College, summer school at A&T University.
And North Carolina Central, too?
And North Carolina Central University that was started by Dr. James
Shepherd. And members of those families are still in education. And at
present time, we have black doctors and dentists here. We have blocks of
property that has entirely black
Was Miss Minnie Lyons born in Oxford and reared in Oxford?
Yes, she was born—and she was my husband's cousin. She was born up in the Berea community of Oxford, that's north of Oxford about ten miles. It's the north of Oxford. She was born there.
So, we have always had—Negroes—Oxford has always been a very progressive town and Negroes worked hard, but they worked in the factories and every place else they could get a job and they learned all the trades. And it has grown to—even now, there are streets in Oxford where only white people lived. Now you can buy a house anywhere in Oxford. There are no restricted neighborhoods. You can buy a house in any section or district in Oxford. All you need is the money to pay for it.
Do you remember when your mother and father—were they ever in an organization—Oddfellows, or was there a Masonic, or—? What kind of organization did you hear your mother and father talk about they was in?
My mother was in the Missionary Society that was made up of members of
the Baptist and Methodist churches. And my father was an Oddfellow. That
was a black
Could you remember when the streets in Oxford were not paved and all of them was dirt?
Yes. There were no paved streets in Oxford during the time I was going to the graded school. That was from nineteen and eight—six—nineteen and seven or eight. And one of the big city-owned buildings on—what is it, Main or Hillsborough Street? It's the big building that was City Hall for awhile, the big building that was the City Hall before they built the new City Hall building now?
Oh. Did you remember when Oxford had a black fire department?
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Did you remember when Oxford had a black fire department?
Yes, an excellent black fire department.
Can you give me some of the names of the firemens that you can think of?
Some of the names of the—?
The firemens.
The firemen were Percy Gregory, Elijah [Holeman], Mr. Sam Owen, ah.
Were there many black restaurants and movie theaters? Was there any—do you remember when they had black movie theaters and black restaurants on Hillsborough Street?
I remember when all of the property on Hillsborough Street from the
corner of Broad and Hillsborough down the street and around the corner,
all of the businesses,
The white man left him the money?
Yes.
Uh-huh. That was—his mother?
Yes, his mother. The white family she worked for, the man was her father.
Could you tell me the name of the family that she worked for? Do you remember?
They're the Hunts. They're the wealthy family. The Hunts and the [Belews].
Tell me about Mr. Gregory's family and how prominent they were in businesses, the brother James and then their mother had restaurants, and worked hard to make sure blacks had some decent facilities to go to.
Yes, Mrs.—oh, what was her name? James's grandmother was Mrs. Sallie—I think her name was Mrs. Sallie Gregory. She had the restaurant on, as I said before, Negroes owned all the property from Hillsborough and—.
And Main.
And Main Street down around the corner of Lewis Street and down there, where the Betts Funeral Parlor is. All of that was Negro property.
And that's where your mother went to school on Lewis Street
when she was
Down there in the [that] home. It's just—went to school right where the Day Care Center is now. I mean, where the lunches are served—the Education Center.
Why was blacks always working hard to have something in Oxford in those days? They worked together so closely, than they do now. Because times were so hard, or the close-knit families?
Well, it was the close-knit families, from the Negro women working in the homes and the men working at everything, everywhere they could get a job and they learned the trades of electrical wiring and carpentry and masonry. And they worked at all of those jobs.
When I go around and interview people, they always talk about the Ridleys, how they contributed to this town, how smart and how hard workers they were. Were they that hard workers, the Ridleys?
They were, they really were. They came from—their origin is up
at the Berea section.
…[always] had family, came from Berea, they say, all of them look like Indians and they had high cheekbones. Can you tell me something about your father and his relationship with the people from Berea and the communication about the Chavises and other families that come out of that area that look like Indians? Was their fathers or—the Indians lived up in northern Granville?
You're telling me something now about them being Indians, but
I knew that they lived up there. Even when I went down to Florida to
teach in the college down
What about Belltown? Did you know Belltown was named after a slave called Carolina Bell and the mail was out in that area?
No, I don't know anything about that, but the one thing I remember about the Belltown area was when the [Curtises] lived out there. Ah, what was the child's names?
Miss [Allen], [Annie Allen]?
Yeah, Allen's grandfather.
Did you ever know any Cozarts out there in Belltown?
No, I just knew the family by the Professor Cozart that taught at Mary Potter and his brother—was the only ones I knew.
Did you know one went to Barber-Scotia College and taught school up there, and became the chancellor?
No, I didn't know about that.
You didn't know that there was one from Belltown.
What was his name?
It was a—he's a gentleman, a man that—he was a Cozart from Belltown.
Well, I know one thing. [Annie Allen]'s father, he was one of
the Curtises. They were all in the whiskey business out there. And he
stole a man's pony and put the pony up in the attic to hide
it. And he lived up there for a year or two. But he stayed up there in
the dark,
That's the truth.
Why are there so many people and families around Oxford are so much lighter than others and people resent—?
Well, just like the all the Tylers and everything. Because they intermarried. Grace Tyler intermarried and married—her husband was her cousin.
Oh, that's what happened.
Yes, they intermarried in the family. To keep the family white. They
didn't want no
Well, why your father went off?
Huh?
Tell me about the time your father was sent away? Who was that?
That was Papa Charles, my grandfather.
Who was he working for?
He was working at the dispensary. I don't know who the people were.
What is the dispensary?
That was the—whiskey—where they sold whiskey. They had a regular dispensary where you could buy whiskey.
And he was working for a white man?
Yeah.
And he sent him to work?
Sent—he was—no, Papa Charles worked for the—they sent Papa Charles—he sent Papa Charles—he decided that he wanted Grandma, and Grandma was working for him.
For Mr. Gregory?
No, Charles Lewis, Mama's father.
He was working for what white family?
I don't know.
But they wanted—?
But the Gregory man wanted Grandma.
Uh-huh, and so—.
And so, he sent Papa Charles down south to Mississippi.
To do what?
To work down there. And he had intercourse with Grandma and that's how Mama was born. That's why Mama looked like—Mama had [hair to her waist].
And what did your father think when he—your grandfather think when he came back?
What was it to think? It was slavery times.
Ain't nothing he could do about it.
It wasn't anything he could do about it.
Did the Gregorys look after your mother? Was they good to her because that was his daughter?
Yes, the
Timberlake.
Yeah, right beside where Timberlake lives. And across the street, the [Minors] own the property where the undertaker shop is and the next house, one of the Gregory girls married [Ashton]—what in the world was his name? Leonard was named for him. Married the man that had the beginning of the carpenter shop where Hillside is now?
Hilltop Lumber Company.
Hilltop Lumber Company.
So, your mother had white half-sisters.
Yes, and they knew it. They knew—all of them. They knew that
Mama was
And he had a half black sister.
And that Mama was his sister. Everybody knew it.
She was the maid?
No, Grandma worked for them. And how they got married, Papa Charles, his people came from Lewis.
Lewis's.
Lewis's. That's right, the name Lewis. The Lewises
and the Gregorys owned
Uh-huh. And he went to Mississippi.
They sent him down to Mississippi and when he came back, Grandma had Mama. Cause she had two brothers, Uncle Handy and—what was—Uncle Albert. And Uncle Handy just died. He lived up—the house that Mr. Lloyd owns over here for rent next to his house. That's where Uncle Handy and Aunt—what was her name? I can't think of Uncle Handy's wife's name. Lived over there in that house.
Mrs. Lyons, that's why they talk about Antioch was named
Howelltown, and all those people out there was light skinned, too, and
there never was slavery in that part of Granville County. We have a lot
of pockets of Granville County that it wasn't slavery and
because it was free-issue slaves like Jerome Anderson. They came from
the
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the blackest thing in my group at school til I [went elsewhere]. I was—Lucille [Boyd], Lucille Shepherd, Annie, Effie Anderson. Anderson whose daddy was white, that lived where—the Anderson man that had the barber shop uptown that was downstairs.
That basement barber shop.
Yeah, Leonard worked there. Leonard and Gus [Burton] worked there shining shoes.
And you was the darkest kid in your class?
In my social group.
I was the blackest one. All of the rest of them had straight hair—Effie Anderson, Lucille [Hall], Annie Davis. Those were the closest children to me.
So when Dr. Shaw came here, he came as a missionary?
Dr. Shaw came here from the church.
Was a missionary.
From the Presbyterian church, as the president.
And he was a missionary here? Didn't he start teaching school in a two-room school first before he started Mary Potter?
It probably was.
And Dr. Shaw?
He married a Pennsylvanian, woman from Pennsylvania.
If you was going to write a book about Oxford and the events, would you think that Dr. Shaw should be one of the greatest individuals because he came here and helped educate these people and everybody had a decent—?
Not only that, but today, the Stovall area is the most prosperous area around here. Out here at—down there below Creedmoor, down in there, that's where the poorest Negroes live. Dr. Shaw was the influence, the most—more Negroes own property in the Stovall area because of his influence.
I heard that he did go out and talk to blacks in this town. How to invest their money and buy farms.
He did, he did. He had what-you-call-him to come here.
Who?
Booker T. Washington came here.
Booker T. Washington came to Oxford?
Came to Oxford and spoke at Mary Potter.
Did he stay all night?
Yes!
Who did stay with, what family?
Stayed with Dr. Shaw.
Booker T. Washington came to Oxford?
Yes.
Do you know what year it was? What grade were you in?
I was at the graded school. It was—. No. No, I was at Mary
Potter. And that was when [Preaching] and Red Russell and all the ball
players from Durham—Red Russell and Ben Hicks that married
Ruby Cannady. Red Russell and all those ball players—they
were all, each schooled at Mary Potter. And when Booker T. Washington
came to Mary Potter to speak, Dr. Shaw had [him here]. And Kitchen was
the governor of North Carolina. And he made the remark about
how—that all the students [took to Preaching] and all of them
were in the same classes. Spoke to us about how we should be proud of
the fact that Booker T. Washington came here to speak. There was
somebody from the state government that came after Booker T. Washington
was here. And when he made that expression that we should be proud,
"you—we
niggers"—Negroes—the way he pronounced
it. And [Preaching] and all of them, got up and walked out of the
auditorium. And Dr. Shaw was going to give demerits or something. And I
remember
Is that why Shaw Hospital, the black hospital—that's who it was named after, Dr. Shaw?
They named it after Dr. Shaw.
And Shaw High School in Stovall?
In Stovall. Yeah, yeah.
That's who they named it after.
Yeah. And the Stovall area is the most prosperous, other than the Antioch
area, is the most prosperous area of our
They always have had very smart black kids that come out of their communities.
Yeah, yeah.
The whole time.
And they owned all the property.
Just like Antioch.
Yeah, yeah.
So you think that—if you had to put Number One in the history book, Dr. Shaw would be Number One. Or the Central Orphanage? Or?
Dr. Shaw, he's done more than the Central Orphanage did.
Dr. Shaw did more for this community.
Yeah, sure he did.
And that's why we have so many educated people come out of
here and
Yeah, yeah. Sure.
So, what do you think about—it was a lot of slavery out in Belltown area. That was a pocket of slavery, because there's graves out there and I've seen them. But Granville County was just—was never a full county slave—.
Uh-uh. No, it's always been prosperous. Because the white men had been fathers of all of these children and they looked after them. They took care of them.
And sent them to school?
Sure.
Yeah. That's what they say about Chavis, John Chavis.
Yeah, yeah. I even met an Episcopal, very high in the—when I went down to Florida to teach, I met a Reverend Chavis that had originally come from up here in North Carolina. He was a high man in the Episcopal church down in Florida.
And he was very light?
Light brown skin.
Oh, so that's why Oxford has always prospered.
I tell you, when I went to Florida to teach summer school—when I went down to Florida, I was the most surprised person in the world because I had never seen as many blacks in my life. And the idea that blacks married blacks, schoolteachers and—black married black—that never happened in my lifetime up here.
It didn't?
No! You could name the black Negroes on the fingers of one hand.
In Oxford.
Yeah!
Mrs. Lyons, I heard that Oxford originally was going—had got started down at Harrisburg. And what happened, I think, the terrain or they didn't like the area. And they wanted to move it where it is now but blacks owned all the property. And was the Littlejohns the only black Littlejohns in this town? Is that why the street was named "Littlejohn Street" or what?
I guess it was. They were always prosperous people.
And that's why blacks own so much property. They had this area before the whites came in and took it from them.
Yes. Allison Holeman—Allison Holeman's daddy was white, some white man. Sure. That's why—do you remember Allison Holeman?
Yeah, I remember when she taught school. Yeah.
Yeah. Her daddy was white.
And that family prospers.
Yeah.
And a lot—most—some went to college.
Sure, sure.
Well, what was the—?
I'll tell you, when I went to Florida to work, and I had never
seen as many blacks in all my life.
Oh,
What did the white ladies do around here? Didn't they know these—their husbands—? What did they think about all these children popping up around here?
What they going to say about it? Even when I came along, I knew that Miss Marybelle and Nannie and all those were Mama's sisters. Leonard was named for Leonard Ashton. He was named for the man that started the—what's the lumber shop?
Hilltop.
Yeah, the Hilltop. The people who started the first Hilltop. When I came down here and—it had just moved down where they are now. They were up here in the northern part of the county.
What number were you as a kid in your family? Was you third child, or fourth?
I was the baby.
You was the baby.
The tenth child.
You was the tenth child.
Yeah.
And you knew all of your brothers and sisters.
Yeah.
Was all—you knew your brothers and sisters?
Sure. That's why I'm so familiar with New York. I've been to India, and I've been to New York all of my life.
Oh. Well, OK. When I interview people and they talk about slavery, they always said that the white lady didn't have no choice. There wasn't anything she could do about it.
There wasn't.
That was instilled in them, or that was the way they were raised, you think?
Well, what's she going to do about—if the husband was her bread and butter, where is she going? She couldn't take care of herself.
And I heard they used to take the slaves, the house people to church and set them on the front row. And they looked after them, but they didn't do much for the people in the field. And they made sure they had proper clothes and everything.
Yeah, sure. That's why the Stovall area is so progressive because Dr. Shaw went out there and developed it. Negroes own all that property to the Virginia line. Every bit of it. And the Antioch area because they're half-white down there, the Tylers and all of those.
And the Howells.
Yeah.
Tell me about Mr. Gregory's mother and father and how did they—after your mother come from the Oxford colored school—how did it come about that they had a school in Mr. Gregory's house? They needed another school? Or they had that class—that school got too big?
That was the first school that they—. They moved it from down there on the Fountain Branch where Mama went to school, and that was the first building there.
OK. Tell me about Fountain Branch. I heard they used to baptize—.
I was baptized at Fountain Branch. Ruth Payne and I, one Sunday morning.
The Fountain Branch I heard—that Mr. Field told me—that there was a pottery factory and that's why they called it Fountain Branch because it was the rocks, and the clay, and the material that they could get out of there. That there actually was a mill right up there on Hillsborough Street.
Who told you?
And that's why it's called Fountain Branch because it was a lot of clay. When I went to school, we used to get clay out of that branch. It was clay.
When you went to the graded school?
Uh-hum. Yeah.
Yeah. Mama went to school down there. Mama's schoolteacher was
Miss—what was the woman's name? Mama asked to go
to the bathroom and Miss Joyner told her she couldn't. So,
Miss Joyner had one of those long skirts, a big wide skirt all around.
So, Mama peed on herself.
Oh Lord, I can tell you
Uh-hum. Or Mr. Yancey.
No, I'm talking about Harris.
Uh-huh. Yeah, J. P. Harris' father.
J. P. Harris married one of the factory gals.
Old man Harris?
J. P.'s father.
Married a poor white lady?
Married—from the cotton factory. It was all over town that he had gone over there and messed up that girl up here at the cotton—that factory girl. [They were about] to have a riot in Oxford.
Oh.
[Leonard and those] that used to have fights with them. They'd pile up their rocks and take their rocks and have battles with rocks. Where all the kids—they had school over there but then they didn't even go to school or didn't go to the school on College Street where white children went.
Did you ever hear or know that there was a white school over on the corner of Lee Street and—over there in that area on New College Street? The Hillary School, or what was the first white school?
Oh, yeah. Hillary Academy.
And Dr. Patilla taught school over there?
I don't know about that. Might have. But I remember when the boarding school was there.
And you're ninety-one years old and you can remember all that just like it was yesterday?
Yeah. Near ninety-two. I'll be traveling on my ninety-second birthday. That's when I go to Hilton Head.
Uh-hum. And whites had to come from blacks to buy their meat, ripping
them and
Yeah. Oh, they had—the building that was the last City Hall in Oxford. Upstairs was the auditorium where we had the school commencement. When James Gregory and Mary Carrington—she was the—on the—that's the first time I ever heard the word "slut". That's what they called her.
Called who?
Mary Carrington. Mary Carrington and those lived in a row of red houses.
Uh-hum, I know where you're talking about.
Over there by Mary Potter.
Uh-hum. Called Red House Road.
Yeah! You remember that? You remember the name Red House Road. Well, Mary Carrington came from over there, but she had a marvelous voice. And at the commencement exercises, the last one they had at the Opera House, she and James Gregory had the leading parts in it.
Why did they call it the Opera House?
Opera? From the word "opera".
Oh, OK.
Which means entertainment.
And that's where the blacks went for dances and their commencements? That's the facility they used?
Yeah.
And downstairs—?
And downstairs was a market, Ridley's. Ed Ridley and those. That was the biggest meat market in Oxford.
It was under that Opera House.
Yeah.
And that was the only one that you had to eat—blacks and everybody had to buy from the same market.
Yeah.
It won't no white—?
Yeah, and Mr. [Bell] had the fish market down on the corner of—on Granville Street. Right where you come through there from Hillsborough to Orange—.
Hillsborough and Orange Street.
Hillsborough and Orange Street.
OK. The church was right across the street?
No. I'm talking about where the Second Baptist—where Penn Avenue Baptist Church is.
OK. Yeah, that's McClanahan Street.
Yeah.
That's right. There was a fish market over there?
The fish market was on the Hillsborough end of it. And the Durham man ran
Mrs. Lyons, you are ninety-one. Do you drive and have a driving license?
Yeah, I got my driver's license.
And you drive?
Yeah.
At ninety-one?
I drove myself to the doctor when I went to the dentist here a few weeks ago when I paid him $128.00 for some den