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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview R-0160, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Adetola Hassan is a British citizen of Nigerian descent who grew up in Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria during the 1980s and early 1990s. She moved to the United States during the mid-1990s to live with her uncle in Missouri, and at the time of the interview in 2001 was a seventeen-year-old freshman at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Hassan begins the interview with a discussion of her family's conversion to Mormonism and their practice of that faith in Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria. Although she focuses on some of the obstacles her family faced in practicing Mormonism in those countries, she argues that it was not until she attended a Presbyterian school in Missouri that she "experienced intense hatred of the church." She was ultimately forced to leave the school because she refused to renounce her belief in Mormonism. Hassan's recollections are revealing of some of the tensions between the Mormon Church and other Christian denominations in the South. Hassan also spends considerable time offering her thoughts on various practices within the Mormon Church, including the temple recommend and baptism of the dead. Additionally, she explains what it was like to be a young woman in the Mormon Church. In so doing, she focuses on her participation in church groups; the centrality of family to the Mormon Church; expectations of dating and double standards for young men and young women in romantic relationships; and her belief that gender hierarchies in the church would neither inhibit her independence nor prevent her from pursuing both a career and a family. Hassan also addresses the matter of race in the predominantly white Mormon Church: she describes her own experience as a young black woman, and she discusses the Mormon ban on black men entering the priesthood prior to 1978. She also explains the precedence of faith over race when choosing a marriage partner. Throughout the interview, Hassan's comments are revealing of the growing role of the Mormon Church in the American South at the end of the twentieth century.
Adetola Hassan, a British citizen of Nigerian descent, was a freshman student at Duke University at the time of this interview in 2001. In the interview, she discusses her Mormon faith, focusing on tensions surrounding Mormonism in the South as well as issues related to gender and race within the church.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I'm conducting with Adetola Hassan a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Today is December 16th, Sunday in the year 2001. Today we'll be talking about African American women within the Mormon Church. Ade, I just wanted to start off by asking a few basic questions. If you could just first tell me how old you are, and you're in school and all of that. Just give me a little bit of just basic information about that.
I'm seventeen and I'm freshman at
Okay. So this is your first year here at Duke. Just wanted to know where are you from originally?
Okay, my family's Nigerian. I'm a British citizen because my siblings and I were all born there, but I've live in England and Nigeria, and I've lived in the United States for six years.
Okay. So well wanted to know also about how many, how many siblings do you have. How large is your family?
Okay I have a brother who is younger than I and an older sister and my mom and my dad. So there are five of us.
Okay, five of you. Okay and all of you are here in the United States.
No, my sister goes to school in Kentucky and I'm here, but my mom and my dad and my littler brother are in Nigeria.
Still in Nigeria. So the sister that you have is she, she's the older one. Okay. What school is she?
She's at Kentucky State University.
Have your parents ever been here to the United States?
Yes, actually my mom moved here with my little brother. So all of us lived her besides my dad who came about every other month for four years. All of us were together, but my sister and I have been here six years.
Wow. Okay, now with this being your freshman year where did you stay prior to coming here to Duke.
I lived in Saint Louis.
Okay and you have family there?
I have an uncle and his family.
Wanted to know also what kind of, what type of work do your parents do?
My dad is an eye surgeon, and he has an eye hospital in Nigeria, and my mom has a medicine distribution company in Nigeria.
Wanted to know if you could tell me a little bit about your some of the traditions that take place within your family back in Nigeria.
Okay, well Nigeria has a lot of different traditions. Like when you are born like especially funerals which is probably I guess because my grandfather just died. Usually in Nigeria when someone dies who's lived a long life, they celebrate the life. So the funeral is a pretty big deal. There's a lot of people, and then if the person lived a long life, then they have a big party to celebrate the person's life. When children are born they have celebrations. Like Nigerian weddings are, they're pretty elaborate. They're just, there's a celebration for almost everything really.
Wow. That's interesting. But I guess like just within the home like here in America each family we have different family rituals that we do that maybe separate and apart from what other families do and maybe separate and apart from the Christmas celebrations that we have, Thanksgiving. Sometimes in different families we'll have things that we normally do throughout the week. Like a lot of times some members may within their family may make it a ritual to go to the museum every Sunday or which is not necessarily something standard that every family would do. It's just that that one particular family may decide, ‘Well you know we used to go to the museum every other Sunday,’ or ‘We used to do this,’ or ‘We used to do that’ which I realize that other families didn't do. So in that sense traditionally in that context what were some of the things that you did like within the immediate family that was like a tradition for you all.
Well, we go to church, which I think is pretty standard, every Sunday. We have something called family home evening, which was usually like every Sunday night. But basically it's one night out of the week where the family just gets together no TV and just talking and spiritual lessons, and I remember that because we've done that for as long as I can remember when we're as a family. Usually we say prayers as a family in the morning and then at night. Eating as a family which I think that's—
Eating together. Right. Right. I've also one of the things now that you've mentioned about eating together as a family. One other African family that I interviewed I remember them telling me that it used to be when she was coming up of course she's much, much, much older. But it used to be the tradition that the older members in the family ate first and then the children would eat after the mother, the father and the grandparents ate. How is that within you all's family or is it that everyone sits down and eat at the same time?
Yeah, it's pretty much everybody eats at the same time. My dad had a
bigger family when he was growing up and I think they did some of that.
We were talking about—
So in my dad's family because that was a pretty big family I know that the older people would eat first and that sort of thing.
During his generation, coming up.
Yeah.
Oh okay so that must be like a custom or a custom within the African—
Well, it depends on the family and where you come from I think.
Right because she her family, she grew up in Ghana. So I didn't know if that was just something that was just primarily a tradition throughout or if it was just maybe more or less an individualized type thing.
I think it's definitely there's some culture to it. Yeah.
And your name Adetola, does that bear a special meaning?
Yeah it means crown worth honor.
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Okay so wanted to ask also about your, since you did, you're talking about your religious upbringing, wanted to emphasize a little bit more about that. You talked about family home evenings which was on Monday nights did you say or was there any—
Usually it was Monday nights, but sometimes it would be Sunday. It was just a time where the whole family could actually get together.
Wanted to know if you could just talk about that a little bit more. I do
know that that is one of the main things that is done within each and
every Latter Day Saint family because it's a Mormon ideal.
Okay. Well first of all family home evening I believe it was one of the prophets of the church that came up with the idea, and it was basically one night a week for the family to get together because families are a very important unit in the church. So one night a week the family gets together and just focuses on spiritual stuff, and I think it really helps as far as making the church or the Gospel part of your life and not just a Sunday thing because it's integrated into what happens every week. As far as being a member of the church in Nigeria I remember I lived in England for the first four years of my life, and then we moved to Saudi Arabia for about a year and a half, and then I came to Nigeria. So up until then I'd always gone to church in England or Saudi Arabia. There's, the first Sunday of every month there is Fast and Testimony Sunday which is where everybody gets if you want you get up and bear your testimony. I remember my first Fast and Testimony Sunday in Nigeria a lady went up and said, she goes, ‘I believe this is the true church,’ and at that point I was still pretty young because I hadn't figured it out that it was the same church. So I was thinking—
And you were about how old?
I was about five or six. I was thinking I know the church in England was true. Then I was like but I know this one is true too. So I was so confused, and I went up to bear my testimony. I stood there, I can remember it felt like I stood there for almost an hour. I'm sure it was a couple seconds before I could say I know this is the true church because I thought there were two because the one in England that I went to and the one here. So finally I just I spit it out. I'm like, ‘I know this is the true church,’ and I went back to my seat. I thought about it. Later I figured out that it was the same church. It was just a different country.
Exactly. Exactly. Wow. That's really funny. Wanted to know about now you mentioned that there is the Mormon church even in places as Saudi Arabia?
Right. Christianity is not popular in Saudi Arabia. So it was kind of low
key there. I mean because I don't think
Exactly. So tell me a little bit more about it being low keyed and how convenient it was or how free you felt or the community felt to be able to go and worship and commune together as Latter Day Saints.
In Saudi Arabia? I think we went on Fridays actually because Friday is the holy day in the Muslim religion. So if I remember correctly we went to church on Sundays, but we had to have it in people's homes because there wasn't a building. The Saudi culture and just government I don't think was really interested in the church. It's not a Christian country. I remember we'd go over to different people's houses. I think it switched almost every week, and I mean we'd still have the same meetings and still have the same classes, but it was very low key, and you'd go home, and you didn't really talk about it with your friends who weren't. There weren't a lot of members but who weren't members of the church you didn't really talk about it just because it wasn't something that.
Exactly. Not something that is just really appreciated in the greater community. Then also in London if you, just tell me a little bit about how did Latter Day Saints feel or is the Mormon church big in London? Did they have the same kinds of pressures in Saudi Arabia?
Well the
Was interested in knowing also are there many of the Mormon churches within London or were there very few?
There are actually quite a few. Everywhere I've gone there's been a
Mormon church. So we lived in Cambridge Hunting then which is pretty
small. It's not that small, but there was a church there when we lived
there. We lived in I'm trying to remember the place because we just
visited this summer. There's a new temple going up in England, and I
cannot remember the name for the life of me. But it's
Now the six years that you've been here in the United States and the time that you were living with an uncle. Is he also a member of the Latter Day Saints?
No. He's not.
He's not. Which faith is he from?
He's Presbyterian I believe.
So how easy or how difficult then was it for you to continue to practice your Mormon faith while living with him?
Well, we had people from the church would pick us up every Sunday to take us to church. My sister went to seminary, which was something every morning that high school students go to just to review scriptures. I know she got picked up for that by members of the church. If but I know my uncle wasn't not supportive of the church, but he wasn't, he didn't want anything to do with it. So they weren't involved in that. I went to a Presbyterian school for middle school for seventh and eighth grade, and that was probably the first time that I experienced intense hatred of the church.
Oh no.
Yeah. Do you want me to talk about that?
Yeah sure. Talk about that.
Well, I know Mormons had experienced a lot of persecutions in the earlier
times in Missouri. So I had never really experienced any negativity
towards the church. I know we'd have Bible classes. People would say
really bad things about the church, and I would just sit there
completely shocked and nobody really knew I was Mormon. So when I told
my closest friend they were, it was interesting to see how people
reacted to that. They'd say things like you're going to hell and the
temple was also going up. So that was a big issue. People it was not
pretty. So I ended up, the school pretty much told my mom that my eighth
grade year that my sister and I had to leave the school unless we said,
unless we signed something that said we believed we didn't have a
credible Christian testimony. Since I believed that,
Right. Right. And very, yes, yes. I can imagine very enriching for you to be able to look back and say yes this what I did. I stood for this. It would just make you a stronger person as you got older being able to reflect back on that. That's interesting. So now you've come all the way from Saudi Arabia and London and just to come back to the United States where the Mormon church is an American church, and here it is that in the United States you received the most hatred for your religious beliefs. Wanted to know also how did your uncle feel about the school's decision on their mandate that you had to make such a pronouncement that you believed that you didn't have a credible religious belief or Christian belief.
Well by the time that that happened we had actually bought a house. So I was living with my mom and my brother and sister. So we weren't really living with them. But I mean he didn't obviously support what they did just because it was religious discrimination and that's just wrong no matter what you believe. So he wasn't particularly thrilled with that school. I think he was going to send his kids, but he ended up not sending them to the school even though they were Presbyterian and it is a Presbyterian school.
Because that was going to be my next question. With him being of practicing and just saying or claiming to be a Presbyterian and knowing that you've experienced this kind of hatred within a Presbyterian school was just really curious as to whether or not it had the impact on him that caused him to rethink about the religious tradition that he was in and to maybe even consider the Mormon faith or some other faith after seeing that that had happened.
Well, it didn't change his faith because it wasn't so much Presbyterian people that did it, it's just a select few because I had one friend that really stuck with me throughout the whole thing, and I mean we, I think our friendship grew a lot from that. We could talk about anything. We'd talk about God and our beliefs and our faith and promises that we made with ourselves and God and just because it was God. It wasn't so much what you believed. So I believed that was the same as him. He saw what the school did, but that didn't make, it wasn't his religion that was saying you're bad because you're Mormon. It was just people.
Right. Exactly. Because conversely people would say that's why you should probably leave that religion or this religion because look what it stands for. Look what it does. Persecute people and have to not have religious tolerance for other faiths and that sort of thing. So yeah I was just really curious about that. Wanted to know what stands out mostly within the Mormon faith that gives you most of your strength?
I guess for me now as a teenager I think it's seeing the difference between people my age who are in the church and people who aren't. Because I think for a lot in general I guess in America in general it's less likely to see a teenager who doesn't drink and doesn't have sex and isn't promiscuous. As in the church it's sort of an awkward thing to see somebody who does drink or who is kind of promiscuous. I've seen because I have friends in the church, and I think one of them is sort of going astray I guess. Not to an extent that is terrible, but so that's he's like the one person in our big group of friends as opposed to my friends outside the church who do other things.
You can't really tell, make a huge distinction with that group that's on
the outside whether they're in their prospective churches or not. In
other words their behaviors are the same to a degree. From what I've
seen in viewing some of the younger groups within their prospective
faiths their lifestyle in the church is basically the same on the
outside. So there isn't that, it's not like that their faith carries
over into their outside, their life Monday through Saturday, and then on
Sunday's they're completely different when they're in church. So I am
seeing this difference that you see that within the Mormon church the
lifestyle because it is a lifestyle is what I'm learning, what I have
learned about the Mormon tradition, the Mormon ideal is that it's just
not something that you live on Sundays. It's a complete lifestyle that
you take with you not just from the Sunday meetings or the family
nights, but it's just throughout. It's just a complete way of life. So
I'm not really seeing that within the other religious traditions. So
yeah I have to agree and I do understand what you're saying in regards
to that being able to make those distinctions. Wanted to know also for
the amount of time that you were raised within the Mormon tradition have
you ever been exposed to another or any other Christian religion? Like
some families not all of the members are Latter Day Saints. So they have
extended family members who were raised in the Protestant tradition. So
they may take turns every other Sunday going to different churches that
sort of thing. Wanted to know if there was
Okay well my father's family was Muslim. So half of his
The rest of them are Muslim?
Um some of them are, half of them on my father's side are Muslim; half of them on that side are Christian. My uncle in Saint Louis is a Christian. He's Presbyterian. So obviously since I went to Presbyterian school, I've been exposed to the Presbyterian religion. I also went to his church probably two times. I remember at that point I sort of felt like I was being pressured to change my faith. So I didn't really, I didn't enjoy going to church that much.
You weren't as receptive.
Right. I had my friend who I talked about earlier who our relationship grew after. She was Presbyterian so like through her, I mean she is—. The one thing I noticed as you were talking about was a lot of people at Westminster which is the school I went to, it became very much just a Sunday religion. They'd go out and party and do all that on the weekends even though it was a Christian school. So but I know she was very devout Presbyterian. So it sort of gives you, like just even though she was one person it gives you an optimistic view on that religion. Another religion I guess I've been exposed to is Judaism because my friend, one of my really close friends is a Jew, and I go over to her house every year for Passover and Seder dinner and so.
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Now when you went to the Presbyterian church twice, what are some of the similarities and what are some of the differences that you see between those church services and the ones that you are grew up in as far as the Latter Day Saint church services?
Let's see. Well there was a focus on Christ which is something that's universal in any Christian religion. The differences for me I felt a lot more comfortable in my church, and that's really because it was my church. But it seemed and this might just be to just that church and not necessarily all Presbyterian religions, but it seemed a bit more detached. Like people didn't—
The Presbyterian church?
Well, just the church that I went to, my uncle's church. It was really, really big. I mean it was sort of, I don't know how to put it as.
Would you say maybe warmth, a feeling of warmth or just cohesive like the members were.
Well, not really but I think I just had negative feelings towards that
just because of what was going on at that time. I've been, my aunt who
lives in America she goes to church, and she goes to I think an Anglican
church, and it's actually all Nigerians in the church and that's,
everybody knows each other.
The different sections or portions—
Of the Sunday meeting that are more directed make it I guess more personal for the different groups. I know they would pass a bowl to put money in which I didn't like because it was sort of in front of everybody.
Taking the tithes.
They do that in my church, but you take the envelope, and you fill it out and then it's sealed, and you give it to the bishop. So that was different rather than like passing it around in front of people.
Passing it. Right. Right. You mentioned—oh gosh it just escaped me a few seconds ago. You talked about, you mentioned, right, the different sections within the church. You mentioned the Women's Relief Society. Tell me a little bit more about a typical Sunday within the Latter Day Saints, the Church of Jesus Christ. You would have like your early morning service, and then there are other services directly after that. Tell me a little bit about that.
The church service lasts three hours. So for the first part is sacrament meeting, which is the most important part, and they past the sacrament which is in remembrance of Christ's crucifixion, and then they have the sacrament meeting in which there are probably about three talks that are given. It's I guess sort of like the sermons. That's the everybody together, the whole congregation.
Now those three talks, is that by the bishop or is that when people go up and give their testimonies?
Usually the bishopric which is the bishop and his two counselors have I guess picked, assigned people to give talks on a certain topic or sometimes the bishop speaks or one of his counselors. It's basically just a religious message or to something like that. It's ended with a prayer. That lasts about an hour I believe or an hour and a half.
Just for those three short mini-talks.
Yes. Then you, that's sacrament meeting, and then you go to Sunday school which is by age groups. There's the nursery that takes over the children. There's the, I know for teenagers I think it's twelve to thirteen, fourteen through fifteen. It's broken up into about three groups for teenagers and you go to your Sunday school class. The adults go to whatever Sunday school class that they want. Then that's about an hour. Then the next hour is for the youth. There's young men which is twelve through eighteen, young women's twelve through eighteen, and there's Relief Society which is for the women and Peace Quorum for the men. The youth you go to Young Women's, and you have sort of I guess just announcements and then you say the young woman theme.
And is that how they structure it in the Women's Society. They would have like a women's theme.
The relief society which I just started going since I got to college, it's you there are announcements. You sing a song, and then there's a lesson given. It's quite a bit different than young woman's. It's on a higher level I think of maturity. They talk about, they give talks just to help women. Like family, rearing a family, dealing with everything in life plus your family, just being a daughter of God. Just it's geared towards women.
Now when you were going to the younger women's group well the younger
teenager group, had you at any time ever gone to the Women's Relief
Society because you seem to be really, really excited
Yeah, usually I don't think I've been to one before because usually you go to whatever age group. Sometimes little kids hang on to their mothers, and they go, but I haven't.
So this is a new experience for you.
Yes.
Do you find it to be a whole lot different from the younger group meetings that you went to?
Well, I mean in Young Women's it differs from the different age groups because there's the twelve to fourteen group and fourteen through sixteen and then sixteen through eighteen. But it's a lot of just preparing you for what's out there and telling you how to live a righteous life and be a daughter of God. But I think when you get, there's definitely a transition because when you get into Relief Society, it's like you're preparing yourself for what lies ahead. So it's not so much sheltered as it is you're a woman.
Exactly. So was just wondering then—
Just finished Relief Society.
Yeah. So it what I'm now discovering is that in the Women's Relief Society they do continue to talk about the importance then of living the life, living a righteous life. So there is sometimes a theme or a segment of this, the purpose of the Women's Relief Society is then pointed towards helping the not necessarily the young, young group but the new women who have come into the Women's Relief Society to keep them focused and to try to prepare them and to tell them. It's more or less like a messenger to say this is what's out there and this is what you need to do to stay focused. So am I correct in saying that that's basically how or what you're experiences are in being in the Women's Relief Society?
Right. And since I'm in a singles ward because I'm in a colege ward it's
probably a bit different than if I were in a family ward where there
were a lot more families and mothers. This is there are a few married
couples and a few, very few people with children, but mostly it's people
in college who don't have kids yet. So it really is just especially in
college where things can be really distracting it's basically
And make those compromises. Exactly. Now so in the singles meetings this is more or less what is taught or the mode of conversation is it more geared to informing the college students that we know what's out there. But this is, you need to stay focussed or what types of discussions do they just talk about how we can get together and do they just talk about different activities?
Well, I think something that always is there is just the Gospel. So no
matter what
Wonderful. Also wanted to know had you ever thought about or even considered going on a mission. I understand that women can go on missions as well as men. So wanted to know if that was something that you might have ever thought about.
I've had friends, older friends who have gone on missions. I haven't really thought about it right now. I just started college, and I'm looking. It's like focused on education. I mean I haven't felt the need to do that yet or anything like that.
It's been from what I've been told that they encourage the women not to date until they're at least sixteen.
Yes, it's actually encouraged for all the youth. Like there's been studies that show people that start dating later are a little less likely to get into trouble, but yeah, that's definitely a pretty strong suggestion because—
I've noticed that in most middle schools students are dating, and they're like twelve, thirteen, fourteen. I would say thirteen, fourteen and they're dating. In fact they're courting pretty much.
Yeah, most definitely.
So I just thought that was interesting. When I learned that the church encourages the youth to not really start thinking about dating until they're sixteen. And also that the men should not really focus on thinking really hard about dating until after they've come back from their mission. Am I correct in that as well?
Yeah. I think that's probably, I mean obviously people date. Once you're sixteen obviously people are dating, but as far as missionaries I know it's hard to not get involved before you're twenty-one. There are people who are involved, and then they go off on their missions, and they leave girlfriends behind. Either the girls wait for them or they dump them. But it's, I think it can be a distraction.
If they dated—
If they're in a serious relationship. I mean as far as just dating and having fun that's something, but if you're in a very serious relationship and then have to go away for two years. I think that's a little bit of a distraction for the missionary. It's probably really hard on the girl as well. So I think that's one of the reasons why that it's suggested that they don't get involved heavily.
Also wanted to know now when the singles get together and they have
activities what are some of the, what are some of those activities and
where are some of the places that they go. I'm thinking in my mind the
movies, but nowadays the movies have so many R-rated that are just, some
of it is kind of questionable. Even though they say you can get in if
you're seventeen or eighteen years old I'm wondering how does that fit
in with the Mormon tradition. Some of the movies that our culture says
I know the church suggests that R-rated movies that you shouldn't watch them just because there's a lot of stuff. I haven't had a chance to really go to any of the singles activities because I'm busy, but I mean they have fliers and stuff. They have dances, and they have like they just go out and do stuff, just get together.
It's in a friendlier environment where you don't feel like your among non-believers wherein you could feel that you'll be pressured to do something that they feel is okay for them but you know that it just doesn't go along with what you believe in. Now tell me have you ever been in any of those situations wherein, of course you're here on campus, and this is not Brigham Young University.
Definitely.
Of course you're going to be in certain settings and feel certain situations where students or the company that you're in are not really doing some of the things that you hold as your values and that sort of thing. What were some of those circumstances and how were you able to reconcile those differences?
Right well I think pretty much in tenth grade when people got their cars
and people started partying a little harder, there's a lot of pressure
to drink and smoke and do stuff like that. My friends pretty
This was in high school.
This was in high school, and I went to a pretty small school from tenth to twelfth grade, and so stuff gets around a people just knew I didn't do that. If I was a party and somebody didn't know and they'd be like hey do you want a drink and I'd be like I don't drink and they'd be like oh really. They'd drop it. It's like you obviously always have this stupid little friend who's like just drink for me, and you're like go away I'm not doing this for you especially not for you.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Like that then they're respectful. When I came here, it's a lot of drinking. This dorm is notorious for being a party dorm. I have friends who do drink and people who smoke pot. But they just, if they pretty much I guess my friends knew off the bat and people I hang out with or people I'm acquainted with I mean sooner or later it comes up that you don't do stuff like that. It's amazing how people accept that.
Oh okay. That is amazing. It's amazing for me to even hear that because I know like with my daughter coming up in middle school and especially in high school. She's going to be twenty-one this summer. She was under a tremendous pressure and just tremendous stress. Like when you mentioned about once they get into tenth and eleventh grade this getting the car and that sort of thing, and that's when that really turned the heat up as far as being able to—. A lot of the studeNts they work really hard on keeping their status and being able to stay within certain groups, certain cliques, maintain certain friendships by being able to keep up with the Jones's so to speak. So I know that that's tremendous pressure, and so it's just amazing to hear that people were receptive to your values once they discovered that you are a Latter Day Saint, and that they really didn't try real hard to force you to do things otherwise.
There are also choices you have to make because I remember in tenth grade the first group of girls or people that approached me and really friendly and they said and I know they asked me, ‘You want to go out to a party.’ I was like I couldn't do it. I was busy that day and the first time I met them people were like yeah I don't smoke and drink and I believed them.
They said that to you.
Yeah it was just like a topic of conversation at the table, and I mean
obviously later as the year went by like that particular group of people
I mean I found out they were like hardcore, like hardcore, hardcore like
drinkers and smokers and everything. I was still because I don't think
you should break friendships because of that because I have different
beliefs, but I guess I became a lot closer to another group of people
just because I didn't feel very comfortable. The group of friends that I
became friends with after that at first some of them didn't drink, but
as the year went on, like everybody. I think there were three people in
my grade that didn't drink. Still people were, I mean you grow up with
people and people
Oh okay. Well that's good. That's really good because a lot of times on campuses the pressure is just really, really hard especially during the freshman year. This is your first time being away from family, being away from home and you want to be able to fit in, that sort of thing. Over the years assimilation takes place within this new environment and new culture, and so I was just wondering if you had been approached already, and if so just how hard or how heavy was the pressure.
I think once you make up your mind, I mean I had made up my mind a long time ago that I wasn't going to do that, and so the answer is already there. It's not like I've just been approached randomly and someone's like do you want a drink, and then I have to think about it. For me the response is automatic.
I guess some of that may come from, that decision making may come from just the mere fact that it's not something that you were accustomed to doing prior to.
Right and it wasn't something I saw my parents doing or my older sister wasn't doing that either.
That's very interesting. Had you ever met or had the opportunity, well of course you always have the opportunity to try to convert and share your Gospel, but wanted to know if any of your friends even considered maybe wanting to know more about the Latter Day Saints.
I've had a friend who was a very strong Presbyterian. I don't think she was very interested in converting, but she was very interested in the religion, and so she came to church with me a few times and she came to seminary, which is amazing because it's at six-fifteen in the morning, and she was interested. I've seen like there have been friends who just ask about the Gospel and you tell them. You never know what's going to happen. They might not join or convert but in the later on.
They may reconsider. That is, yeah I guess that is something that you
keep in mind when someone is asking you or just wanting to know querying
you about questions about your faith. Sometimes you never know what it
can perhaps maybe lead to a conversion if not right then and there later
on down the line. So the importance of being able to share your faith
and what your faith means to you. So then you
No not here, and I mean I think it's also because it's a college and people are pretty open or somewhat liberal just because it's a college atmosphere that's a non-religious college atmosphere. So I think—
Although you do have your few individuals who would be definitely against this or that or one thing or the other. I think that some of them exist on just about any college. So I was just wondering if that atmosphere allowed you to be who you feel you are and allowed you to express your faith in the manner that you wanted to express it.
I'm usually like my friends or people I've become friends before religion comes up. They're like oh my gosh you're Mormon. They're like, I thought Mormons were like. They go through this who like thing that they think Mormons are. They're like you're drinking soda. I'm like what does that have to do with anything. I'm like, they're like. There's so many misconceptions.
Yeah tell me about some of those misconceptions and some that you get from people once they discover or once you tell them that you're Mormon. The preconceptions of what they think or always thought that Mormonism was.
It ranges. There are very absurd things like do you worship the devil or like—
What do you think that that particular one comes from?
I think—
Do you ask them well what made you think that?
I think there's just a lot, I think for almost any different religion there's been a history of hatred. So I think that a lot of times people come up with things just to give that negativity towards the church.
I was wondering if that one particular one that maybe thought that you worshipped or voodoo or something like that. Was there one certain element of the particular church that they became familiar with that made them think that oh well this connotes voodoo worshipping or something like that.
No there are so many things like it's a cult. Or they're like do you have horns just really like—.
Are you serious?
There are a lot of absurd things. There are just things that people pick up. People make jokes and things like that.
Urban legends that sort of thing.
I think it's just a very different religion, and so I think with anything different there's negativity.
And fear because they don't know. So when you don't know something especially when it has to do with religions a lot of times it does bring about a lot of fear.
A lot of times there's anti-Mormon propaganda that's passed out especially when the temple was going up in Saint Louis.
Do you know about the one here in Apex?
Oh I didn't.
Yeah, two years ago a brand new, a new temple here in Apex is about maybe thirty miles from here.
Has it already gone up or is it—
It's up. I think it was dedicated maybe two years ago, consecrated.
Okay yeah then I knew about it. So there's a lot of negative pamphlets handed out, and I know I got one, and I was reading through it, and I was like where do people sit and come up with this stuff. There is, I think that's just some people will hate something.
When they don't really know all about it.
Wanted to know now since we mentioned have spoken about the temple tell me a little about going to the temple. How one is able to go the temple, what are some of the requirements to be able to go to the temple, just the whole significance about going to the temple because that's different and apart from just going to your regular church ward for services.
Because actually the temple isn't open on Sundays because it's all volunteer work. People do the desk in the front. Usually you have to have a temple recommend and to get your recommend you have to be keeping the laws of the Gospel. You can't be smoking or drinking or doing drugs or having sex. You have to be keeping your morals.
Integrity, chastity.
I know to go to do certain things in the temple you have to have gone through like sacred covenants. Some of the stuff I don't know a lot about like having your (endowments) taken out. I've never done that so I don't. But it's like that's when people get their undergarments that they wear. So I don't know too much about that.
You don't know too much about?
I don't know, I've never done it. I know you're basically making a
covenant that you're going to, like you're not going to do stuff, and
it's a pretty strong covenant with God of stuff that you make between
you and God. I've never done that so I don't know. I know the youth do a
lot of baptisms, and they call it baptisms for the dead. What that is
you they believe when you die that your spirit goes to the spirit world,
and everybody gets judged but like when Jesus will come. But as far as
the spirit world goes it's like there are people who have accepted the
Gospel or know the truth, and there are people who don't have the
Gospel, and they can't progress I guess. Basically what baptisms for the
dead is you're baptized I guess in the name of that person. So they can,
it's kind of a complicated thing because we believe like when Jesus
died, he went to preach to the spirits because it talks about that in
the Bible, and so basically we believe the same. In
the spirit world people have the opportunity because God is a fair God.
So everybody has the opportunity to know the Gospel. So we believe that
up there people are taught the Gospel and things like that. But you need
a body to be baptized like Jesus was by immersion. Of course he was
perfect so he didn't have to do it, but he did it as a commandment. So
basically baptism for the dead is like a person like I guess I would be
baptized in the name of somebody, and then we believe that then they can
either accept it and be confirmed a member or not. So basically a lot of
youth do that because that's what they can do because it's basically the
same rules. You have to be keeping the law of chastity and your
morals.
The youth do this on behalf of their—
Ancestors.
Right. Right.
Or basically just names that people. People all over the world are doing
their genealogy. It's just any, they're just, they need people to help
because there are so many names. So the youth do that
So you've been to the temple before. You've participate or performed a baptism for your grandmother.
Yeah, because I know she was thinking of joining the church, but she died.
Oh okay before she was able to become a Mormon. So then what this baptism does then essentially is gives her the opportunity of becoming a Mormon in the afterlife.
Yeah. Of course I didn't explain it very refinely. I don't have all of the—
It's okay. It's okay. I had to take a course on Mormonism, and I just took my final yesterday. A lot of the details that takes places within the temple and the details about the temple recommend, getting a temple recommend I had to study for. So I happen to know it, but it's always good to hear coming from a member what their experience is, and so that's why I was asking those questions to see how you interpret it and what those experiences are for you being able to go to the temple. What was the experience like getting a temple recommend?
Well, I don't have a permanent one. Usually you have to go through an interview with the bishop, and then he says that you can go. It's you just, it's good to know that you can go just because I think if I had done stuff that would have prevented me from doing my grandmother's baptism I think that would've—. But it's basically you just, it's not nobody's looking down on you or saying shame on you or anything like that. You just go and you talk with the bishop, and he asks you some questions.
Then if you are able to answer to those questions favorably, then that's what gives you.
Right. Right.
Oh okay that's good. Now has your mother and father both been to the temple before.
Yes.
They have. They have. Were they married in the temple?
No, they were converted after they were married. They'd been married about a year and a half maybe before they converted. So we were sealed as a family in the temple.
Oh that's wonderful. So what was that experience like?
Actually I was little so—
You don't remember.
I only remember being in the playroom.
Well that's interesting to be able to say yes, I've been sealed. My family has been sealed so you all will be guaranteed to be together. I guess I really should be asking you that question. What does it mean to be sealed?
It means that you have the opportunity to live together as a family. Obviously people don't live up to the Gospel then—
It just basically means that your family as a unit that after the sealing has been done, the sealing ceremony has been done that your family has the opportunity now to be together in the afterlife. That's wonderful. Wanted to ask also, so you mentioned now that your father did convert because he was Islam, he was Muslim.
He was Muslim but he converted to Christianity during his high school years. Then he became Mormon.
So how long actually were your mom and dad Mormon converts. For how many years would you say?
Have they been?
Right.
Okay my mom is forty-six. She was converted when she was twenty-six so twenty years.
Okay. Okay.
So actually for all of your life they've been Mormons. That's wonderful. Wanted to know, let's see there was another question that I had on my mind, and it just escaped me. Okay. Yeah. Wanted to know yeah, do you know anything about the priesthood ban on African American males prior to the year 1978?
Yes, I've heard about it. It's interesting because, have you heard of Naboo?
Yeah. That's the headquarters for the—
It was where they moved after they left Missouri. We were there in a
pageant, and my dad got really into African Americans in Mormon history.
What was weird was there was an African American man who was I think
pretty close to Joseph Smith, and it came up that he had had the
priesthood, and that was way back when. I know that there had been a ban
and I don't know exactly all the details, and I have
So yeah you were telling me what you thought about the—
Right.
Priesthood ban prior to 1978.
Right and I think for a lot of I think African American males especially if you believe everything not being able to get the priesthood that would be a really hard thing. My dad obviously was converted after that. So he didn't have to deal with that. I don't know anybody who had to do that. Yeah. I think—
Did your dad ever talk to you about or did you ever hear him talk about his feelings about what he thought on this priesthood ban prior to '78?
No. Because I guess he didn't really encounter that. So I don't know how much it affected him or how much he knew about it. So he never did.
I've talked to quite a few people who've really never encountered that who didn't go through that transition. But I just question them and just wanted to know what were their feelings about the incident in general. Just like if I was to ask you what do you feel or how do you feel about the assassination of Martin Luther King. Of course you weren't there, but you have some kind of general feelings about the whole incident and everything that was, the circumstances around it. So basically that's just I just wanted to know how if your dad had ever talked about it and if he had ever mentioned his feelings about that incident. I think one of the things I think that is important is that revelation did come down for them to change it and open the priesthood up to include African American males. What do you see the priesthood position, the significance of the priesthood position being just in general? It doesn't matter whether it's race. It doesn't matter. Just having the significance of being able to have the priesthood.
Just in general, the priesthood. I think personally it's been a big
blessing in my life just having a dad a father that has the priesthood
because I don't know why, but I mean it's just like a blanket. It just
feels like there is so much power behind it. My dad and it's really
encouraged, it encourages respecting your wife and your children and
just working together. It's not like I have the priesthood. I am the
head. It's like, it's sort of I feel like it brings our family together
because especially with the male rule
Now when did your dad get the priesthood? Did he have it all of your life like before you were born?
Yeah, he's had it all of my life.
Which priesthood because I understand there are two of them.
There's Aaronic and there's Melchizedek, and I believe I think when you first get in, you're given the Aaronic if you're the age of twelve or older. I believe he's had the Melchizedek all my life too.
That's wonderful. Now there's certain, they call it having keys to the priesthood. If he has the Melchizedek priesthood that means that he has the keys or the authority and the power to act on behalf of Christ, Jesus Christ to have this, perform in this level of priesthood. Tell me some of the ways that he's been able to demonstrate and use his power, the Melchizedek power and authority within the family.
Right. I think the most important one for me is blessing which is like just because you go through so many things in your life, and it's always I guess a comfort for me to be able to say Dad can you give me a blessing. I have, I'm dealing with this or I have exams or this is weighing me down and he can do that. For me you can just feel the comfort I guess like the Holy Ghost and I guess just some of the stuff, and I mean it's not just my dad because I know my senior year I lived with another family who was LDS. But it was just like and we were a close family friends, and so I know I was applying for colleges and all this stuff and I asked him for a blessing. I mean the stuff that they say, because he told me he was like, there was going to be I remember a specific thing there's going to be a lot of surprises in store for you this year like that you would never expect. It was something along those lines. I had applied to, I was convinced I was not going to college. My, I was a good student. My GPA wasn't as high as I would like it to be. I was applying to these really prestigious schools, and I remember like just all a lot of stuff happened that year but just acceptance letter after acceptance letter to schools that, I just would think back to that and you're like wow. For me that builds my testimony.
That's powerful. That is so powerful. Just to hear you say that someone was able to come to you and say I know that this, this and this is going to happen for you. Then when it does happen it just—
It definitely builds your testimony.
So now, this was a family member who had the priesthood.
This was my the person I lived with this year. My dad is usually the person that gives me blessings and just like assurance and stuff like that happens all the time. I mean I think—
The outcomes are always positive.
It's just I mean especially when I was going through the whole incident with my school.
At the Presbyterian.
And my dad would give me a blessing and then like sometimes he would say things like everything will work out for the best. For me I know leaving that school and being exposed to the things were such a blessing in disguise.
What are some of the things that you would take from how your parents raised you to incorporate into your life now that you are out on your own?
About how my parents raised me. My—
That you would say—let's see. I know I wrote that down somewhere. Some of the things that, memorable things that you've gotten from your parents that you want to incorporate into your life.
Like how would I, like if was to raise my kids a certain way.
Yeah, I guess you could say that. Once you become a mom some of the ways that your parents raised you. What are some of those things that you would draw from how your upbringing things that you would draw from your upbringing that would, you consider that you want to carry on into—
My life. I think one thing I mean besides the church I guess my culture is something that my parents have always raised me up. They're like, I mean—
African culture and heritage.
Yeah. That's been like really important to me. Also my parents very much
stressed for me to remember who you are especially that you are a
daughter of God and that you are worth something. I think that helps so
much especially when you're on your own and there's not so much like
your support group of closest friends. You don't have people breathing
down your neck making sure you're doing something. Just like your
parents saying just remember who you are and keep the family flag
flying. That
Huge difference.
That's definitely something that I'm going to carry through all of my life. Especially when I am raising my kids.
The strong discipline.
Right. I mean I admire my parents like everything that they've done I want to do.
That's wonderful. That's really powerful to be able to say that because think about it. There's a lot of youth your age who say the complete opposite. Like my mom did this, this, this, this. I will never do this when I get older and have children. That is a very powerful statement. Just goes very well in favor of your parents for you to be able to say everything that they've done I want to be able to replicate and to do that as well with my own family. I think that that is really wonderful.
What are some of your goals, some of your goals in looking for a marriageable mate? What are some of the criteria in selecting a marriage partner and that sort of thing?
Well, obviously I want somebody who is LDS especially—
Latter Day Saints.
Right. Especially seeing like my dad and how he's lived his life like besides being a goal oriented person, but somebody who places family very high on their list and someone who is going somewhere and has goals for his life and who does live the Gospel as part of his life and not just Sundays and just. Basically someone like my dad.
Who's living the life of the Mormon ideal.
Right.
Now in the churches that you've gone to do you find, do you see a lot of African American males in the Mormon church?
There are not as especially in America. I haven't. There's more girls definitely I think.
More African American girls.
Yeah. I'm sure, like I know in our ward I think Lamont is the only one I think or maybe there's another one. I don't know. Yes, so there's, I don't know about other places because I've only been to church in two places. There's I'm sure like at BYU. It's bigger
Larger number, larger number. So now how does that make you feel or comfortwise seeing the disportionate number of African Americans versus whites within the tradition that the Latter Day Saint tradition that you were born and raised in and now that you don't see a whole lot.
One thing for me is like I've been to church in Nigeria, and so I have seen guys that are LDS all the time. But I mean it is something that I've thought about and were thinking about wanting to marry somebody who is of the church, and it's easier to marry somebody in your race like and—
Would you consider in other words are you ruling out that you would never perhaps maybe date or marry—
Someone who wasn't African American.
Right who wasn't black but was Latter Day Saints.
No, not at all. I mean I think I mean I've had friends who aren't black who are LDS, and I mean whatever the path that God wants me to go. You can't choose.
I guess there are like two controversial issues. Because the pool of marriageable African American men is low to begin with and then when you compound that with looking for a pool of African American male—
LDS
Mormons. The pool gets even smaller here in the United States. Well, I
have to just speak for the southern part. Maybe out west it maybe a
larger percentage. Of course I'm sure that it is, but by and large when
you look at it as a whole just within the United States the pool is very
small. So the two controversies then that an African American, single
African American woman who is Mormon, the two controversies that she
would be posed with are do I marry outside of my race if I want to
definitely stay within the Mormon tradition because there are more white
Latter Day Saints than there are African American males Latter Day
Saints. So one controversy would be do I marry outside of my race to
ensure that I stay within my faith, or do I marry outside of my faith to
ensure to meet the other maybe a requirement of wanting to stay within
your race. So I guess now since coming from Nigeria where the
Yes. Most definitely.
So then it's in reverse then in Nigeria of what the kinds of dynamics that you see here in terms of the numbers. So if you went to, if you were in Nigeria that you wouldn't be really faced with those two controversies. But here in American certainly over here in the South where we are considered in the southern belt which is predominantly Protestant Southern Baptist you're going to find more whites in the Mormon church than you would African American. So how do you, how would you for yourself reconcile or try to figure out which way you would go?
Well, just because I've seen, I mean I've seen people who have married outside of the church, and I've seen people who are married in the church. For the majority of it like the couples that are married in the church it's a lot easier especially for a woman. I would never want to have a house or have children without the priesthood after having that growing up.
That's so important.
Yeah. I've seen, then I have seen people who even among white couples who married outside the church. Definitely for the most part it's a lot harder, and it causes a lot of stress because the church takes up a lot of your life because it is such a part of your life. There's a lot of I think almost jealousy or animosity towards the spouse that is in the church who is spending so much of their time involved in that. The other person feels left out. So I think for me I would have to make a choice to stay in my faith just because it's so important to me.
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it is the two controversies that are being
looked at and the other thing that I was wanting to know also because
the African American, single African America women are just there's,
have this independence about them. It's almost, I almost want to say
it's a culture within the African American women themselves. The Church
of Jesus Christ, the Mormon church is a hierarchical church, and it's
the men are on top with the higher positions, and the women have it's
just hierarchical. Although women and men are viewed as equal the women
cannot hold priesthood and all of those higher positions. So I'm
wondering how do African American women who are Mormon reconcile within
themselves and say I'm going to give up my independence, an independence
that's so ingrained in
I think especially for me just because I'm very driven. My parents, my dad and my mom have always, education's important. You get out there and you build your life. It's not like you're going to get married when you're nineteen and depend on somebody. So there definitely is that independent spirit of I can do this. But then—
Your parents encourage you to be that way.
Yes. But at the same time you can never do everything yourself. For me I think my happiness is very dependent on Christ. Like the church like when I see it I don't see it as somebody trying to hold me down. I mean the prophet has said woman because I think there is definitely a trend among single women to just go to BYU and get married, and that's a very big generalization.
Really wow. I never looked at it that way. This is the first time that's being presented.
This is a huge generalization. But I mean there are girls who are like who just want to get married, and there's nothing wrong with that if that's the path that you choose. But for me and the way that I am I mean you mean even the prophet has said woman get your education. Then there's no guarantee. There is no guarantee. So I mean the church encourages you to be self-sufficient, and I mean obviously the teenagers who are so freewilled they are like why do I have to do what the prophet says. Why do I have to do what the church says? Obviously because there are people in a higher power than you, and you don't make up the rules. But I think part of being in any religion is accepting that there are things. Like for me if I wasn't willing to have somebody tell me don't date until you're sixteen or don't go out and have sex or if I wasn't willing to accept that I can't have the priesthood and things like that then I wouldn't be a member of the church because it's stuff that you choose. As much as I'm independent as I am and as much as I'm like there's nobody telling me what to do there are certain things that I am willing to accept because of my faith.
Now you mentioned that this huge generalization and I am sure that there is a really huge generalization that perhaps there are women who go to BYU that that's their sole purpose, to first find a mate. There's really nothing wrong with making that statement because I think that that applies, that that can apply to just about any college. A lot of women in fact now the generalization that I have heard a—
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That a lot of women who well, girls will go to after they have graduated from high school may not necessarily be interested in wanting to go to college just to get that degree or education but because they want to find someone to marry. They want, they feel that that's the perfect arena to find a marriage partner is in college. So a lot of girls go away to school just because they want to meet. They find that it is that arena to meet someone to marry. But now so you mentioned that, but I'm wondering is it the African American women who are going to BYU that you understand that to be or just women in general.
Just women in general.
Well it certainly does result in a lot of marriages.
I think it's also because people want to find somebody who is worthy and
who they can get
So it's like a big singles group.
Right. Right.
A huge campus of singles groups. It makes a lot of sense though. I appreciate you sharing that because I've never looked at it that way, but it does, it makes a lot of sense.
Wanted to know now in now I don't know if you had thought about seriously dating at this phase in your life since you are still very, very young. You're very very young and this is your freshman year. Wanted to know what are some of the, if you are considering dating now, what are some of the qualities that you are looking for in guys who are in school now with you?
That's probably one of the reasons why I don't date much because there's a lot of pressure I think to get involved with physically. So that's a big problem. Like guys come up to you and you're pretty much sure, go away, because you know exactly what they want.
Gee that has to be very, very pressuring because, no—. I don't mean to cut you off, but I'm just really interested in wanting to know I'm quite sure you've met some guys who probably appear to be very attractive to you and so how do you, how do you reconcile. You say to yourself now I know what they want. I know what they want and I know what they're looking for. Chances of them being Latter Day Saints is probably going to be very slim. How do you reconcile that?
Well, I don't think that it's absolutely necessary to date an LDS person, a Latter Day Saint person. I think it might not be a good idea to get incredibly involved to the fact that you would want to get married because if you don't want to marry someone who is not LDS, then that could be an issue. But as far as just finding somebody to date, I think date somebody who will respect you and like is willing to just deal with what you believe in then if not, too bad. It's hard especially because there's a shortage of guys and finding a guy who and guys know it. So they know they can pretty much get whatever they want from whoever will give it to them. So that's hard.
Oh gosh. It is because there's more women than there are men, and they well know it. So they prey on that.
The funny thing is the double standard because I know I was talking to one of my friends. She's not LDS, but she has pretty high standards, and she was saying I got this guy. He just completely used girls and whatever and then he turned to her and said I'm going to marry somebody like you who is like a virgin and doesn't drink. That's really, they want to have fun, but then when they slow down, they want. There's definitely a double standard.
Now just hearing her tell you that and to come to know that this is how they value, how they place their values and what they really want to settle down with. Then does that make you reflect on well I am a prime choice, and I'm going to keep myself that way because I'm, I know that I'm in his higher category so to speak.
Well, I guess that's encouraging, but I think mostly it's for me just my self-worth. There's a lot of insecurity I think that comes with sort of selling yourself or not treating yourself the way that you should be treated and the respect that you deserve.
Exactly. Gee it has to be very hard having, just having that one culture inside of another culture on campus and being able to stand your ground, stand firm and say this is the way I've been raised. This is the way I believe in. I have to continue to carry that flag for my family. I'm just here for four years.
It helps because usually there's a church everywhere. You can find some, and so there's always an immediate support group or an immediate family group sort of—
That you can when you feel like it's just way too much pressure and you just really—
And just need to talk to somebody.
Yeah, yeah gee that's interesting. I did have a couple of more questions.
What do you feel that the Mormon doctrine has to offer single women in
determining the ideal roles
I think even from when you get into women's I think there is a lot of emphasis on self-worth because I think society in general does a lot to degrade women. So I think it just sort of helps and sometimes I think a lot of women base their self-worth on how they're treated especially by males, and I think it definitely helps. It stresses the fact that you are a daughter of God and that you are who you are not because of what other people think or how you dress or who you are. It's focuses a lot on your relationship with God, and so I think that's really positive especially in our society today.
That's a very powerful statement. If all of us could think along those lines and in those terms I think that there things would be a whole lot better most certainly. Just wanted to know also from your point of view can single African American Mormon women abandon their independence by letting men, letting the men provide while they stay at home with children?
I don't think it's necessary to stay at home just because my mom didn't, and I mean obviously you have to put your family first but which my mom did, but she still had a career, and she was very much a career woman. So I don't think you have to stay at home. I think if that's a choice that you want to make. I don't think that makes you any less of a role because you are taking care of home and that is your job and like no matter what men would like to say they couldn't do it without you. I don't think that that is compromising your independence if that's a choice that you make.
This pattern or just role of independence, do you think that these can be easily broken to give way to accepting and adapting to the Mormon ideal. Like well I know that with the statement that you just said would say no that you really don't have to break, you really don't have to break your independence so to speak. You can so in other words are you saying that you, an African American woman Mormon can still be independent and at the same time still answer or still answer to the Mormon ideal, go along with the hierarchy in the church even if she feels that she should still have the same opportunity to perhaps maybe fulfill some of those same hierarchical priesthood roles?
I think it's definitely a matter of perspective and if you feel that
And so you were saying it's a matter of perspective.
Yeah if you feel I'm sure because I guess before I used to be like, you should've obviously I've got friends who like I'm going to stay at home and take care of my kids. I'm like why? But because I personally plan on having a career but also taking care of my kids. So it's a matter of what you feel, I think like for me I have chosen to see that you can have—
You can do both.
Right.
And still be able to live the Mormon ideal and not feel like you're giving up your independence just to fit into that hierarchical church structure.
There are always people in any religion who think that women should stay in the house. Well that's their point of view.
What is your idea of, what does the idea of community mean to you?
For me it's I guess like I said earlier on, it's just that especially with church anywhere you go that you can find a group of people who are willing to support you and just take you in and look past anything superficial and just take you in and be willing to accept you and help support you.
Okay, I guess just one other question. Traditionally they say it's said that Mormon families have large families, have a lot of children. So I don't think that there is a particular doctrine against birth control per se within the Mormon scripture, but the tendency is they lean more to say that you really shouldn't try to interfere with, try to stop procreating. So just wanted to know what your opinion is on birth control. I don't know that the Mormon doctrine has anything written in stone about that, but just wanted to know—. One of my reasons is for wanting to ask African American women about that primarily is because there are so many African American single moms who have children and who have had to struggle raising their children for so long. So I would venture to say that there's quite a few of them who would probably not feel at ease by saying that they could not use birth control within this particular, within any particular church that says do not use birth control. They probably would feel uneasy about that because of the experiences of having to raise a child or many children on their own by themselves.
I don't know. I've never really heard of that because I mean I know that
my friends all have three kids. So obviously they're using some form of
birth control. I've had older friends who have gotten
It's the norm to really consider and think strongly about how many children you want your family, your immediate family is going to have. I think it may to some degree be a generational thing. A lot of the families that I've spoken with, Mormon Latter Day Saints that I've spoken with that have many children are older, older couples that are much, much older even older than I am. So I when I do visit the Mormon church, I do see just about every couple with at least one or two children, but I'm beginning to see more and more the younger couples with lesser children. So and I'm beginning to think then that maybe they are considering or entertaining the notion or the idea at least anyways of planning how many children they want to have and maybe trying to keep it small and in doing so maybe just incorporating birth control. Well Ade you've answered a lot of important questions. This has been a wonderful interview. I have to say just I've really enjoyed this interview. I have been interviewing a lot of much older African American women as I've mentioned to you early on before the interview got going. So I was a little nervous about interviewing someone as young as you are. But you certainly have answered a lot of really what I feel are important questions, but more over you've really have added greatly. You really have added greatly to the bank of questions that I've had and really put a lot of just given me a lot of intuitive thought into some other questions and just to some other notions about the church itself. Things that you've discussed in the interview I've never even thought about or even questions that I've never even thought to raise before. If you noticed, I wasn't even referring back and forth that much to my question bank because your conversation just really helped me to naturally stimulate some questions on my own, and I just thought that that was really wonderful. This certainly was a powerful interview I feel. I really appreciate your spending the time to share with me your most intimate about your religion and hope that you will consider to do a second interview with me next semester. Those forms that I gave you. One is about, it's just giving us a release to use, to go ahead and document the interview at the Wilson Round Library manuscript department at UNC, and so you can take your time to read over the forms. It's basically giving us permission, one is with restriction and one is without, and so you can just take your time and review it and decide that way. Just want to say thank you again.
Your welcome. It was fun.
Was there anything that you wanted to, anything else that you might want to ask me or something else that you didn't get a chance to say that you might want to talk about.
Not that I can think of.
Okay thank you so much.
Your welcome.
I really appreciate it. Okay this will end our discussion. Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW