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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview
R-0160, in the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill”
Adetola Hassan is a British citizen of Nigerian descent who grew up in Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria during the 1980s and early 1990s. She moved to the United States during the mid-1990s to live with her uncle in Missouri, and at the time of the interview in 2001 was a seventeen-year-old freshman at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Hassan begins the interview with a discussion of her family's conversion to Mormonism and their practice of that faith in Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria. Although she focuses on some of the obstacles her family faced in practicing Mormonism in those countries, she argues that it was not until she attended a Presbyterian school in Missouri that she "experienced intense hatred of the church." She was ultimately forced to leave the school because she refused to renounce her belief in Mormonism. Hassan's recollections are revealing of some of the tensions between the Mormon Church and other Christian denominations in the South. Hassan also spends considerable time offering her thoughts on various practices within the Mormon Church, including the temple recommend and baptism of the dead. Additionally, she explains what it was like to be a young woman in the Mormon Church. In so doing, she focuses on her participation in church groups; the centrality of family to the Mormon church; expectations of dating and double standards for young men and young women in romantic relationships; and her belief that gender hierarchies in the Church would neither inhibit her independence nor prevent her from pursuing both a career and a family. Hassan also addresses the matter of race in the predominantly white Mormon church: she describes her own experience as a young black woman, and she discusses the Mormon ban on black men entering the priesthood prior to 1978. She also explains the precedence of faith over race when choosing a marriage partner. Throughout the interview, Hassan's comments are revealing of the growing role of the Mormon Church in the American South at the end of the twentieth century.
Adetola Hassan, a British citizen of Nigerian descent, was a freshman student at Duke University at the time of this interview in 2001. In the interview, she discusses her Mormon faith, focusing on tensions surrounding Mormonism in the South as well as issues related to gender and race within the Church.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I'm conducting with Adetola Hassan a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Today is December 16th, Sunday in the year 2001. Today we'll be talking about African American women within the Mormon Church. Ade, I just wanted to start off by asking a few basic questions. If you could just first tell me how old you are, and you're in school and all of that. Just give me a little bit of just basic information about that.
I'm seventeen and I'm freshman at
Okay. So this is your first year here at Duke. Just wanted to know where are you from originally?
Okay, my family's Nigerian. I'm a British citizen because my siblings and I were all born there, but I've live in England and Nigeria, and I've lived in the United States for six years.
Okay. So well wanted to know also about how many, how many siblings do you have. How large is your family?
Okay I have a brother who is younger than I and an older sister and my mom and my dad. So there are five of us.
Okay, five of you. Okay and all of you are here in the United States.
No, my sister goes to school in Kentucky and I'm here, but my mom and my dad and my littler brother are in Nigeria.
Still in Nigeria. So the sister that you have is she, she's the older one. Okay. What school is she?
She's at Kentucky State University.
Have your parents ever been here to the United States?
Yes, actually my mom moved here with my little brother. So all of us lived her besides my dad who came about every other month for four years. All of us were together, but my sister and I have been here six years.
Wow. Okay, now with this being your freshman year where did you stay prior to coming here to Duke.
I lived in Saint Louis.
Okay and you have family there?
I have an uncle and his family.
Wanted to know also what kind of, what type of work do your parents do?
My dad is an eye surgeon, and he has an eye hospital in Nigeria, and my mom has a medicine distribution company in Nigeria.
Wanted to know if you could tell me a little bit about your some of the traditions that take place within your family back in Nigeria.
Okay, well Nigeria has a lot of different traditions. Like when you are born like especially funerals which is probably I guess because my grandfather just died. Usually in Nigeria when someone dies who's lived a long life, they celebrate the life. So the funeral is a pretty big deal. There's a lot of people, and then if the person lived a long life, then they have a big party to celebrate the person's life. When children are born they have celebrations. Like Nigerian weddings are, they're pretty elaborate. They're just, there's a celebration for almost everything really.
Wow. That's interesting. But I guess like just within the home like here in America each family we have different family rituals that we do that maybe separate and apart from what other families do and maybe separate and apart from the Christmas celebrations that we have, Thanksgiving. Sometimes in different families we'll have things that we normally do throughout the week. Like a lot of times some members may within their family may make it a ritual to go to the museum every Sunday or which is not necessarily something standard that every family would do. It's just that that one particular family may decide, ‘Well you know we used to go to the museum every other Sunday,’ or ‘We used to do this,’ or ‘We used to do that’ which I realize that other families didn't do. So in that sense traditionally in that context what were some of the things that you did like within the immediate family that was like a tradition for you all.
Well, we go to church, which I think is pretty standard, every Sunday. We have something called family home evening, which was usually like every Sunday night. But basically it's one night out of the week where the family just gets together no TV and just talking and spiritual lessons, and I remember that because we've done that for as long as I can remember when we're as a family. Usually we say prayers as a family in the morning and then at night. Eating as a family which I think that's—
Eating together. Right. Right. I've also one of the things now that you've mentioned about eating together as a family. One other African family that I interviewed I remember them telling me that it used to be when she was coming up of course she's much, much, much older. But it used to be the tradition that the older members in the family ate first and then the children would eat after the mother, the father and the grandparents ate. How is that within you all's family or is it that everyone sits down and eat at the same time?
Yeah, it's pretty much everybody eats at the same time. My dad
had a bigger family when he was growing up and I think they did some of
that.
We were talking about—
So in my dad's family because that was a pretty big family I know that the older people would eat first and that sort of thing.
During his generation, coming up.
Yeah.
Oh okay so that must be like a custom or a custom within the African—
Well, it depends on the family and where you come from I think.
Right because she her family, she grew up in Ghana. So I didn't know if that was just something that was just primarily a tradition throughout or if it was just maybe more or less an individualized type thing.
I think it's definitely there's some culture to it. Yeah.
And your name Adetola, does that bear a special meaning?
Yeah it means crown worth honor.
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Okay so wanted to ask also about your, since you did, you're talking about your religious upbringing, wanted to emphasize a little bit more about that. You talked about family home evenings which was on Monday nights did you say or was there any—
Usually it was Monday nights, but sometimes it would be Sunday. It was just a time where the whole family could actually get together.
Wanted to know if you could just talk about that a little bit more. I do
know that that is one of the main things that is done within each and
every Latter Day Saint family because it's a Mormon ideal.
Okay. Well first of all family home evening I believe it was one of the prophets of the church that came up with the idea, and it was basically one night a week for the family to get together because families are a very important unit in the church. So one night a week the family gets together and just focuses on spiritual stuff, and I think it really helps as far as making the church or the Gospel part of your life and not just a Sunday thing because it's integrated into what happens every week. As far as being a member of the church in Nigeria I remember I lived in England for the first four years of my life, and then we moved to Saudi Arabia for about a year and a half, and then I came to Nigeria. So up until then I'd always gone to church in England or Saudi Arabia. There's, the first Sunday of every month there is Fast and Testimony Sunday which is where everybody gets if you want you get up and bear your testimony. I remember my first Fast and Testimony Sunday in Nigeria a lady went up and said, she goes, ‘I believe this is the true church,’ and at that point I was still pretty young because I hadn't figured it out that it was the same church. So I was thinking—
And you were about how old?
I was about five or six. I was thinking I know the church in England was true. Then I was like but I know this one is true too. So I was so confused, and I went up to bear my testimony. I stood there, I can remember it felt like I stood there for almost an hour. I'm sure it was a couple seconds before I could say I know this is the true church because I thought there were two because the one in England that I went to and the one here. So finally I just I spit it out. I'm like, ‘I know this is the true church,’ and I went back to my seat. I thought about it. Later I figured out that it was the same church. It was just a different country.
Exactly. Exactly. Wow. That's really funny. Wanted to know about now you mentioned that there is the Mormon church even in places as Saudi Arabia?
Right. Christianity is not popular in Saudi Arabia. So it was kind of low
key there. I mean because I don't think
Exactly. So tell me a little bit more about it being low keyed and how convenient it was or how free you felt or the community felt to be able to go and worship and commune together as Latter Day Saints.
In Saudi Arabia? I think we went on Fridays actually because Friday is the holy day in the Muslim religion. So if I remember correctly we went to church on Sundays, but we had to have it in people's homes because there wasn't a building. The Saudi culture and just government I don't think was really interested in the church. It's not a Christian country. I remember we'd go over to different people's houses. I think it switched almost every week, and I mean we'd still have the same meetings and still have the same classes, but it was very low key, and you'd go home, and you didn't really talk about it with your friends who weren't. There weren't a lot of members but who weren't members of the church you didn't really talk about it just because it wasn't something that.
Exactly. Not something that is just really appreciated in the greater community. Then also in London if you, just tell me a little bit about how did Latter Day Saints feel or is the Mormon church big in London? Did they have the same kinds of pressures in Saudi Arabia?
Well the
Was interested in knowing also are there many of the Mormon churches within London or were there very few?
There are actually quite a few. Everywhere I've gone
there's been a Mormon church. So we lived in Cambridge
Hunting then which is pretty small. It's not that small, but
there was a church there when we lived there. We lived in I'm
trying to remember the place because we just visited this summer.
There's a new temple going up in England, and I cannot
remember the name for the life of me. But it's
Now the six years that you've been here in the United States and the time that you were living with an uncle. Is he also a member of the Latter Day Saints?
No. He's not.
He's not. Which faith is he from?
He's Presbyterian I believe.
So how easy or how difficult then was it for you to continue to practice your Mormon faith while living with him?
Well, we had people from the church would pick us up every Sunday to take us to church. My sister went to seminary, which was something every morning that high school students go to just to review scriptures. I know she got picked up for that by members of the church. If but I know my uncle wasn't not supportive of the church, but he wasn't, he didn't want anything to do with it. So they weren't involved in that. I went to a Presbyterian school for middle school for seventh and eighth grade, and that was probably the first time that I experienced intense hatred of the church.
Oh no.
Yeah. Do you want me to talk about that?
Yeah sure. Talk about that.
Well, I know Mormons had experienced a lot of persecutions in the earlier
times in Missouri. So I had never really experienced any negativity
towards the church. I know we'd have Bible classes. People
would say really bad things about the church, and I would just sit there
completely shocked and nobody really knew I was Mormon. So when I told
my closest friend they were, it was interesting to see how people
reacted to that. They'd say things like you're
going to hell and the temple was also going up. So that was a big issue.
People it was not pretty. So I ended up, the school pretty much told my
mom that my eighth grade year that my sister and I had to leave the
school unless we said, unless we signed something that said we believed
we didn't have a credible Christian testimony. Since I
believed that,
Right. Right. And very, yes, yes. I can imagine very enriching for you to be able to look back and say yes this what I did. I stood for this. It would just make you a stronger person as you got older being able to reflect back on that. That's interesting. So now you've come all the way from Saudi Arabia and London and just to come back to the United States where the Mormon church is an American church, and here it is that in the United States you received the most hatred for your religious beliefs. Wanted to know also how did your uncle feel about the school's decision on their mandate that you had to make such a pronouncement that you believed that you didn't have a credible religious belief or Christian belief.
Well by the time that that happened we had actually bought a house. So I was living with my mom and my brother and sister. So we weren't really living with them. But I mean he didn't obviously support what they did just because it was religious discrimination and that's just wrong no matter what you believe. So he wasn't particularly thrilled with that school. I think he was going to send his kids, but he ended up not sending them to the school even though they were Presbyterian and it is a Presbyterian school.
Because that was going to be my next question. With him being of practicing and just saying or claiming to be a Presbyterian and knowing that you've experienced this kind of hatred within a Presbyterian school was just really curious as to whether or not it had the impact on him that caused him to rethink about the religious tradition that he was in and to maybe even consider the Mormon faith or some other faith after seeing that that had happened.
Well, it didn't change his faith because it wasn't so much Presbyterian people that did it, it's just a select few because I had one friend that really stuck with me throughout the whole thing, and I mean we, I think our friendship grew a lot from that. We could talk about anything. We'd talk about God and our beliefs and our faith and promises that we made with ourselves and God and just because it was God. It wasn't so much what you believed. So I believed that was the same as him. He saw what the school did, but that didn't make, it wasn't his religion that was saying you're bad because you're Mormon. It was just people.
Right. Exactly. Because conversely people would say that's why you should probably leave that religion or this religion because look what it stands for. Look what it does. Persecute people and have to not have religious tolerance for other faiths and that sort of thing. So yeah I was just really curious about that. Wanted to know what stands out mostly within the Mormon faith that gives you most of your strength?
I guess for me now as a teenager I think it's seeing the difference between people my age who are in the church and people who aren't. Because I think for a lot in general I guess in America in general it's less likely to see a teenager who doesn't drink and doesn't have sex and isn't promiscuous. As in the church it's sort of an awkward thing to see somebody who does drink or who is kind of promiscuous. I've seen because I have friends in the church, and I think one of them is sort of going astray I guess. Not to an extent that is terrible, but so that's he's like the one person in our big group of friends as opposed to my friends outside the church who do other things.
You can't really tell, make a huge distinction with that group
that's on the outside whether they're in their
prospective churches or not. In other words their behaviors are the same
to a degree. From what I've seen in viewing some of the
younger groups within their prospective faiths their lifestyle in the
church is basically the same on the outside. So there isn't
that, it's not like that their faith carries over into their
outside, their life Monday through Saturday, and then on
Sunday's they're completely different when
they're in church. So I am seeing this difference that you
see that within the Mormon church the lifestyle because it is a
lifestyle is what I'm learning, what I have learned about the
Mormon tradition, the Mormon ideal is that it's just not
something that you live on Sundays. It's a complete lifestyle
that you take with you not just from the Sunday meetings or the family
nights, but it's just throughout. It's just a
complete way of life. So I'm not really seeing that within
the other religious traditions. So yeah I have to agree and I do
understand what you're saying in regards to that being able
to make those distinctions. Wanted to know also for the amount of time
that you were raised within the Mormon tradition have you ever been
exposed to another or any other Christian religion? Like some families
not all of the members are Latter Day Saints. So they have extended
family members who were raised in the Protestant tradition. So they may
take turns every other Sunday going to different churches that sort of
thing. Wanted to know if there was
Okay well my father's family was Muslim. So half of his
The rest of them are Muslim?
Um some of them are, half of them on my father's side are Muslim; half of them on that side are Christian. My uncle in Saint Louis is a Christian. He's Presbyterian. So obviously since I went to Presbyterian school, I've been exposed to the Presbyterian religion. I also went to his church probably two times. I remember at that point I sort of felt like I was being pressured to change my faith. So I didn't really, I didn't enjoy going to church that much.
You weren't as receptive.
Right. I had my friend who I talked about earlier who our relationship grew after. She was Presbyterian so like through her, I mean she is—. The one thing I noticed as you were talking about was a lot of people at Westminster which is the school I went to, it became very much just a Sunday religion. They'd go out and party and do all that on the weekends even though it was a Christian school. So but I know she was very devout Presbyterian. So it sort of gives you, like just even though she was one person it gives you an optimistic view on that religion. Another religion I guess I've been exposed to is Judaism because my friend, one of my really close friends is a Jew, and I go over to her house every year for Passover and Seder dinner and so.
That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Now when you went to the Presbyterian church twice, what are some of the similarities and what are some of the differences that you see between those church services and the ones that you are grew up in as far as the Latter Day Saint church services?
Let's see. Well there was a focus on Christ which is something that's universal in any Christian religion. The differences for me I felt a lot more comfortable in my church, and that's really because it was my church. But it seemed and this might just be to just that church and not necessarily all Presbyterian religions, but it seemed a bit more detached. Like people didn't—
The Presbyterian church?
Well, just the church that I went to, my uncle's church. It was really, really big. I mean it was sort of, I don't know how to put it as.
Would you say maybe warmth, a feeling of warmth or just cohesive like the members were.
Well, not really but I think I just had negative feelings towards that
just because of what was going on at that time. I've been, my
aunt who lives in America she goes to church, and she goes to I think an
Anglican church, and it's actually all Nigerians in the
church and that's, everybody knows each other.
The different sections or portions—
Of the Sunday meeting that are more directed make it I guess more personal for the different groups. I know they would pass a bowl to put money in which I didn't like because it was sort of in front of everybody.
Taking the tithes.
They do that in my church, but you take the envelope, and you fill it out and then it's sealed, and you give it to the bishop. So that was different rather than like passing it around in front of people.
Passing it. Right. Right. You mentioned—oh gosh it just escaped me a few seconds ago. You talked about, you mentioned, right, the different sections within the church. You mentioned the Women's Relief Society. Tell me a little bit more about a typical Sunday within the Latter Day Saints, the Church of Jesus Christ. You would have like your early morning service, and then there are other services directly after that. Tell me a little bit about that.
The church service lasts three hours. So for the first part is sacrament meeting, which is the most important part, and they past the sacrament which is in remembrance of Christ's crucifixion, and then they have the sacrament meeting in which there are probably about three talks that are given. It's I guess sort of like the sermons. That's the everybody together, the whole congregation.
Now those three talks, is that by the bishop or is that when people go up and give their testimonies?
Usually the bishopric which is the bishop and his two counselors have I guess picked, assigned people to give talks on a certain topic or sometimes the bishop speaks or one of his counselors. It's basically just a religious message or to something like that. It's ended with a prayer. That lasts about an hour I believe or an hour and a half.
Just for those three short mini-talks.
Yes. Then you, that's sacrament meeting, and then you go to Sunday school which is by age groups. There's the nursery that takes over the children. There's the, I know for teenagers I think it's twelve to thirteen, fourteen through fifteen. It's broken up into about three groups for teenagers and you go to your Sunday school class. The adults go to whatever Sunday school class that they want. Then that's about an hour. Then the next hour is for the youth. There's young men which is twelve through eighteen, young women's twelve through eighteen, and there's Relief Society which is for the women and Peace Quorum for the men. The youth you go to Young Women's, and you have sort of I guess just announcements and then you say the young woman theme.
And is that how they structure it in the Women's Society. They would have like a women's theme.
The relief society which I just started going since I got to college, it's you there are announcements. You sing a song, and then there's a lesson given. It's quite a bit different than young woman's. It's on a higher level I think of maturity. They talk about, they give talks just to help women. Like family, rearing a family, dealing with everything in life plus your family, just being a daughter of God. Just it's geared towards women.
Now when you were going to the younger women's group well the
younger teenager group, had you at any time ever gone to the
Women's Relief Society because you seem to be really, really
excited
Yeah, usually I don't think I've been to one before because usually you go to whatever age group. Sometimes little kids hang on to their mothers, and they go, but I haven't.
So this is a new experience for you.
Yes.
Do you find it to be a whole lot different from the younger group meetings that you went to?
Well, I mean in Young Women's it differs from the different age groups because there's the twelve to fourteen group and fourteen through sixteen and then sixteen through eighteen. But it's a lot of just preparing you for what's out there and telling you how to live a righteous life and be a daughter of God. But I think when you get, there's definitely a transition because when you get into Relief Society, it's like you're preparing yourself for what lies ahead. So it's not so much sheltered as it is you're a woman.
Exactly. So was just wondering then—
Just finished Relief Society.
Yeah. So it what I'm now discovering is that in the Women's Relief Society they do continue to talk about the importance then of living the life, living a righteous life. So there is sometimes a theme or a segment of this, the purpose of the Women's Relief Society is then pointed towards helping the not necessarily the young, young group but the new women who have come into the Women's Relief Society to keep them focused and to try to prepare them and to tell them. It's more or less like a messenger to say this is what's out there and this is what you need to do to stay focused. So am I correct in saying that that's basically how or what you're experiences are in being in the Women's Relief Society?
Right. And since I'm in a singles ward because I'm
in a colege ward it's probably a bit different than if I were
in a family ward where there were a lot more families and mothers. This
is there are a few married couples and a few, very few people with
children, but mostly it's people in college who
don't have kids yet. So it really is just especially in
college where things can be really distracting it's basically
And make those compromises. Exactly. Now so in the singles meetings this is more or less what is taught or the mode of conversation is it more geared to informing the college students that we know what's out there. But this is, you need to stay focussed or what types of discussions do they just talk about how we can get together and do they just talk about different activities?
Well, I think something that always is there is just the Gospel. So no
matter what
Wonderful. Also wanted to know had you ever thought about or even considered going on a mission. I understand that women can go on missions as well as men. So wanted to know if that was something that you might have ever thought about.
I've had friends, older friends who have gone on missions. I haven't really thought about it right now. I just started college, and I'm looking. It's like focused on education. I mean I haven't felt the need to do that yet or anything like that.
It's been from what I've been told that they encourage the women not to date until they're at least sixteen.
Yes, it's actually encouraged for all the youth. Like there's been studies that show people that start dating later are a little less likely to get into trouble, but yeah, that's definitely a pretty strong suggestion because—
I've noticed that in most middle schools students are dating, and they're like twelve, thirteen, fourteen. I would say thirteen, fourteen and they're dating. In fact they're courting pretty much.
Yeah, most definitely.
So I just thought that was interesting. When I learned that the church encourages the youth to not really start thinking about dating until they're sixteen. And also that the men should not really focus on thinking really hard about dating until after they've come back from their mission. Am I correct in that as well?
Yeah. I think that's probably, I mean obviously people date. Once you're sixteen obviously people are dating, but as far as missionaries I know it's hard to not get involved before you're twenty-one. There are people who are involved, and then they go off on their missions, and they leave girlfriends behind. Either the girls wait for them or they dump them. But it's, I think it can be a distraction.
If they dated—
If they're in a serious relationship. I mean as far as just dating and having fun that's something, but if you're in a very serious relationship and then have to go away for two years. I think that's a little bit of a distraction for the missionary. It's probably really hard on the girl as well. So I think that's one of the reasons why that it's suggested that they don't get involved heavily.
Also wanted to know now when the singles get together and they have
activities what are some of the, what are some of those activities and
where are some of the places that they go. I'm thinking in my
mind the movies, but nowadays the movies have so many R-rated that are
just, some of it is kind of questionable. Even though they say you can
get in if you're seventeen or eighteen years old
I'm wondering how does that fit in with the Mormon tradition.
Some of the movies that our culture says
I know the church suggests that R-rated movies that you shouldn't watch them just because there's a lot of stuff. I haven't had a chance to really go to any of the singles activities because I'm busy, but I mean they have fliers and stuff. They have dances, and they have like they just go out and do stuff, just get together.
It's in a friendlier environment where you don't feel like your among non-believers wherein you could feel that you'll be pressured to do something that they feel is okay for them but you know that it just doesn't go along with what you believe in. Now tell me have you ever been in any of those situations wherein, of course you're here on campus, and this is not Brigham Young University.
Definitely.
Of course you're going to be in certain settings and feel certain situations where students or the company that you're in are not really doing some of the things that you hold as your values and that sort of thing. What were some of those circumstances and how were you able to reconcile those differences?
Right well I think pretty much in tenth grade when people got their cars
and people started partying a little harder, there's a lot of
pressure to drink and smoke and do stuff like that. My friends pretty
This was in high school.
This was in high school, and I went to a pretty small school from tenth to twelfth grade, and so stuff gets around a people just knew I didn't do that. If I was a party and somebody didn't know and they'd be like hey do you want a drink and I'd be like I don't drink and they'd be like oh really. They'd drop it. It's like you obviously always have this stupid little friend who's like just drink for me, and you're like go away I'm not doing this for you especially not for you.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Like that then they're respectful. When I came here, it's a lot of drinking. This dorm is notorious for being a party dorm. I have friends who do drink and people who smoke pot. But they just, if they pretty much I guess my friends knew off the bat and people I hang out with or people I'm acquainted with I mean sooner or later it comes up that you don't do stuff like that. It's amazing how people accept that.
Oh okay. That is amazing. It's amazing for me to even hear that because I know like with my daughter coming up in middle school and especially in high school. She's going to be twenty-one this summer. She was under a tremendous pressure and just tremendous stress. Like when you mentioned about once they get into tenth and eleventh grade this getting the car and that sort of thing, and that's when that really turned the heat up as far as being able to—. A lot of the studeNts they work really hard on keeping their status and being able to stay within certain groups, certain cliques, maintain certain friendships by being able to keep up with the Jones's so to speak. So I know that that's tremendous pressure, and so it's just amazing to hear that people were receptive to your values once they discovered that you are a Latter Day Saint, and that they really didn't try real hard to force you to do things otherwise.
There are also choices you have to make because I remember in tenth grade the first group of girls or people that approached me and really friendly and they said and I know they asked me, ‘You want to go out to a party.’ I was like I couldn't do it. I was busy that day and the first time I met them people were like yeah I don't smoke and drink and I believed them.
They said that to you.
Yeah it was just like a topic of conversation at the table, and I mean
obviously later as the year went by like that particular group of people
I mean I found out they were like hardcore, like hardcore, hardcore like
drinkers and smokers and everything. I was still because I
don't think you should break friendships because of that
because I have different beliefs, but I guess I became a lot closer to
another group of people just because I didn't feel very
comfortable. The group of friends that I became friends with after that
at first some of them didn't drink, but as the year went on,
like everybody. I think there were three people in my grade that
didn't drink. Still people were, I mean you grow up with
people and people
Oh okay. Well that's good. That's really good because a lot of times on campuses the pressure is just really, really hard especially during the freshman year. This is your first time being away from family, being away from home and you want to be able to fit in, that sort of thing. Over the years assimilation takes place within this new environment and new culture, and so I was just wondering if you had been approached already, and if so just how hard or how heavy was the pressure.
I think once you make up your mind, I mean I had made up my mind a long time ago that I wasn't going to do that, and so the answer is already there. It's not like I've just been approached randomly and someone's like do you want a drink, and then I have to think about it. For me the response is automatic.
I guess some of that may come from, that decision making may come from just the mere fact that it's not something that you were accustomed to doing prior to.
Right and it wasn't something I saw my parents doing or my older sister wasn't doing that either.
That's very interesting. Had you ever met or had the opportunity, well of course you always have the opportunity to try to convert and share your Gospel, but wanted to know if any of your friends even considered maybe wanting to know more about the Latter Day Saints.
I've had a friend who was a very strong Presbyterian. I don't think she was very interested in converting, but she was very interested in the religion, and so she came to church with me a few times and she came to seminary, which is amazing because it's at six-fifteen in the morning, and she was interested. I've seen like there have been friends who just ask about the Gospel and you tell them. You never know what's going to happen. They might not join or convert but in the later on.
They may reconsider. That is, yeah I guess that is something that you
keep in mind when someone is asking you or just wanting to know querying
you about questions about your faith. Sometimes you never know what it
can perhaps maybe lead to a conversion if not right then and there later
on down the line. So the importance of being able to share your faith
and what your faith means to you. So then you
No not here, and I mean I think it's also because it's a college and people are pretty open or somewhat liberal just because it's a college atmosphere that's a non-religious college atmosphere. So I think—
Although you do have your few individuals who would be definitely against this or that or one thing or the other. I think that some of them exist on just about any college. So I was just wondering if that atmosphere allowed you to be who you feel you are and allowed you to express your faith in the manner that you wanted to express it.
I'm usually like my friends or people I've become friends before religion comes up. They're like oh my gosh you're Mormon. They're like, I thought Mormons were like. They go through this who like thing that they think Mormons are. They're like you're drinking soda. I'm like what does that have to do with anything. I'm like, they're like. There's so many misconceptions.
Yeah tell me about some of those misconceptions and some that you get from people once they discover or once you tell them that you're Mormon. The preconceptions of what they think or always thought that Mormonism was.
It ranges. There are very absurd things like do you worship the devil or like—
What do you think that that particular one comes from?
I think—
Do you ask them well what made you think that?
I think there's just a lot, I think for almost any different religion there's been a history of hatred. So I think that a lot of times people come up with things just to give that negativity towards the church.
I was wondering if that one particular one that maybe thought that you worshipped or voodoo or something like that. Was there one certain element of the particular church that they became familiar with that made them think that oh well this connotes voodoo worshipping or something like that.
No there are so many things like it's a cult. Or they're like do you have horns just really like—.
Are you serious?
There are a lot of absurd things. There are just things that people pick up. People make jokes and things like that.
Urban legends that sort of thing.
I think it's just a very different religion, and so I think with anything different there's negativity.
And fear because they don't know. So when you don't know something especially when it has to do with religions a lot of times it does bring about a lot of fear.
A lot of times there's anti-Mormon propaganda that's passed out especially when the temple was going up in Saint Louis.
Do you know about the one here in Apex?
Oh I didn't.
Yeah, two years ago a brand new, a new temple here in Apex is about maybe thirty miles from here.
Has it already gone up or is it—
It's up. I think it was dedicated maybe two years ago, consecrated.
Okay yeah then I knew about it. So there's a lot of negative pamphlets handed out, and I know I got one, and I was reading through it, and I was like where do people sit and come up with this stuff. There is, I think that's just some people will hate something.
When they don't really know all about it.
Because actually the temple isn't open on Sundays because it's all volunteer work. People do the desk in the front. Usually you have to have a temple recommend and to get your recommend you have to be keeping the laws of the Gospel. You can't be smoking or drinking or doing drugs or having sex. You have to be keeping your morals.
Integrity, chastity.
I know to go to do certain things in the temple you have to have gone through like sacred covenants. Some of the stuff I don't know a lot about like having your (endowments) taken out. I've never done that so I don't. But it's like that's when people get their undergarments that they wear. So I don't know too much about that.
You don't know too much about?
I don't know, I've never done it. I know
you're basically making a covenant that you're
going to, like you're not going to do stuff, and
it's a pretty strong covenant with God of stuff that you make
between you and God. I've never done that so I
don't know. I know the youth do a lot of baptisms, and they
call it baptisms for the dead. What that is you they believe when you
die that your spirit goes to the spirit world, and everybody gets judged
but like when Jesus will come. But as far as the spirit world goes
it's like there are people who have accepted the Gospel or
know the truth, and there are people who don't have the
Gospel, and they can't progress I guess. Basically what
baptisms for the dead is you're baptized I guess in the name
of that person. So they can, it's kind of a complicated thing
because we believe like when Jesus died, he went to preach to the
spirits because it talks about that in the Bible, and
so basically we believe the same. In the spirit world people have the
opportunity because God is a fair God. So everybody has the opportunity
to know the Gospel. So we believe that up there people are taught the
Gospel and things like that. But you need a body to be baptized like
Jesus was by immersion. Of course he was perfect so he didn't
have to do it, but he did it as a commandment. So basically baptism for
the dead is like a person like I guess I would be baptized in the name
of somebody, and then we believe that then they can either accept it and
be confirmed a member or not. So basically a lot of youth do that
because that's what they can do because it's
basically the same rules. You have to be keeping the law of chastity and
your morals.
The youth do this on behalf of their—
Ancestors.
Right. Right.
Or basically just names that people. People all over the world are doing
their genealogy. It's just any, they're just, they
need people to help because there are so many names. So the youth do
that
So you've been to the temple before. You've participate or performed a baptism for your grandmother.
Yeah, because I know she was thinking of joining the church, but she died.
Oh okay before she was able to become a Mormon. So then what this baptism does then essentially is gives her the opportunity of becoming a Mormon in the afterlife.
Yeah. Of course I didn't explain it very refinely. I don't have all of the—
It's okay. It's okay. I had to take a course on Mormonism, and I just took my final yesterday. A lot of the details that takes places within the temple and the details about the temple recommend, getting a temple recommend I had to study for. So I happen to know it, but it's always good to hear coming from a member what their experience is, and so that's why I was asking those questions to see how you interpret it and what those experiences are for you being able to go to the temple. What was the experience like getting a temple recommend?
Well, I don't have a permanent one. Usually you have to go through an interview with the bishop, and then he says that you can go. It's you just, it's good to know that you can go just because I think if I had done stuff that would have prevented me from doing my grandmother's baptism I think that would've—. But it's basically you just, it's not nobody's looking down on you or saying shame on you or anything like that. You just go and you talk with the bishop, and he asks you some questions.
Then if you are able to answer to those questions favorably, then that's what gives you.
Right. Right.
Oh okay that's good. Now has your mother and father both been to the temple before.
Yes.
They have. They have. Were they married in the temple?
No, they were converted after they were married. They'd been married about a year and a half maybe before they converted. So we were sealed as a family in the temple.
Oh that's wonderful. So what was that experience like?
Actually I was little so—
You don't remember.
I only remember being in the playroom.
Well that's interesting to be able to say yes, I've been sealed. My family has been sealed so you all will be guaranteed to be together. I guess I really should be asking you that question. What does it mean to be sealed?
It means that you have the opportunity to live together as a family. Obviously people don't live up to the Gospel then—
It just basically means that your family as a unit that after the sealing has been done, the sealing ceremony has been done that your family has the opportunity now to be together in the afterlife. That's wonderful. Wanted to ask also, so you mentioned now that your father did convert because he was Islam, he was Muslim.
He was Muslim but he converted to Christianity during his high school years. Then he became Mormon.
So how long actually were your mom and dad Mormon converts. For how many years would you say?
Have they been?
Right.
Okay my mom is forty-six. She was converted when she was twenty-six so twenty years.
Okay. Okay.
Yes, I've heard about it. It's interesting because, have you heard of Naboo?
Yeah. That's the headquarters for the—
It was where they moved after they left Missouri. We were there in a
pageant, and my dad got really into African Americans in Mormon history.
What was weird was there was an African American man who was I think
pretty close to Joseph Smith, and it came up that he had had the
priesthood, and that was way back when. I know that there had been a ban
and I don't know exactly all the details, and I have
So yeah you were telling me what you thought about the—
Right.
Priesthood ban prior to 1978.
Right and I think for a lot of I think African American males especially if you believe everything not being able to get the priesthood that would be a really hard thing. My dad obviously was converted after that. So he didn't have to deal with that. I don't know anybody who had to do that. Yeah. I think—
Did your dad ever talk to you about or did you ever hear him talk about his feelings about what he thought on this priesthood ban prior to '78?
No. Because I guess he didn't really encounter that. So I don't know how much it affected him or how much he knew about it. So he never did.
I've talked to quite a few people who've really never encountered that who didn't go through that transition. But I just question them and just wanted to know what were their feelings about the incident in general. Just like if I was to ask you what do you feel or how do you feel about the assassination of Martin Luther King. Of course you weren't there, but you have some kind of general feelings about the whole incident and everything that was, the circumstances around it. So basically that's just I just wanted to know how if your dad had ever talked about it and if he had ever mentioned his feelings about that incident. I think one of the things I think that is important is that revelation did come down for them to change it and open the priesthood up to include African American males. What do you see the priesthood position, the significance of the priesthood position being just in general? It doesn't matter whether it's race. It doesn't matter. Just having the significance of being able to have the priesthood.
Just in general, the priesthood. I think personally it's been
a big blessing in my life just having a dad a father that has the
priesthood because I don't know why, but I mean
it's just like a blanket. It just feels like there is so much
power behind it. My dad and it's really encouraged, it
encourages respecting your wife and your children and just working
together. It's not like I have the priesthood. I am the head.
It's like, it's sort of I feel like it brings our
family together because especially with the male rule
Now when did your dad get the priesthood? Did he have it all of your life like before you were born?
Yeah, he's had it all of my life.
Which priesthood because I understand there are two of them.
There's Aaronic and there's Melchizedek, and I believe I think when you first get in, you're given the Aaronic if you're the age of twelve or older. I believe he's had the Melchizedek all my life too.
That's wonderful. Now there's certain, they call it having keys to the priesthood. If he has the Melchizedek priesthood that means that he has the keys or the authority and the power to act on behalf of Christ, Jesus Christ to have this, perform in this level of priesthood. Tell me some of the ways that he's been able to demonstrate and use his power, the Melchizedek power and authority within the family.
Right. I think the most important one for me is blessing which is like just because you go through so many things in your life, and it's always I guess a comfort for me to be able to say Dad can you give me a blessing. I have, I'm dealing with this or I have exams or this is weighing me down and he can do that. For me you can just feel the comfort I guess like the Holy Ghost and I guess just some of the stuff, and I mean it's not just my dad because I know my senior year I lived with another family who was LDS. But it was just like and we were a close family friends, and so I know I was applying for colleges and all this stuff and I asked him for a blessing. I mean the stuff that they say, because he told me he was like, there was going to be I remember a specific thing there's going to be a lot of surprises in store for you this year like that you would never expect. It was something along those lines. I had applied to, I was convinced I was not going to college. My, I was a good student. My GPA wasn't as high as I would like it to be. I was applying to these really prestigious schools, and I remember like just all a lot of stuff happened that year but just acceptance letter after acceptance letter to schools that, I just would think back to that and you're like wow. For me that builds my testimony.
That's powerful. That is so powerful. Just to hear you say that someone was able to come to you and say I know that this, this and this is going to happen for you. Then when it does happen it just—
It definitely builds your testimony.
So now, this was a family member who had the priesthood.
This was my the person I lived with this year. My dad is usually the person that gives me blessings and just like assurance and stuff like that happens all the time. I mean I think—
The outcomes are always positive.
It's just I mean especially when I was going through the whole incident with my school.
At the Presbyterian.
And my dad would give me a blessing and then like sometimes he would say things like everything will work out for the best. For me I know leaving that school and being exposed to the things were such a blessing in disguise.
What are some of the things that you would take from how your parents raised you to incorporate into your life now that you are out on your own?
About how my parents raised me. My—
That you would say—let's see. I know I wrote that down somewhere. Some of the things that, memorable things that you've gotten from your parents that you want to incorporate into your life.
Like how would I, like if was to raise my kids a certain way.
Yeah, I guess you could say that. Once you become a mom some of the ways that your parents raised you. What are some of those things that you would draw from how your upbringing things that you would draw from your upbringing that would, you consider that you want to carry on into—
My life. I think one thing I mean besides the church I guess my culture is something that my parents have always raised me up. They're like, I mean—
African culture and heritage.
Yeah. That's been like really important to me. Also my parents
very much stressed for me to remember who you are especially that you
are a daughter of God and that you are worth something. I think that
helps so much especially when you're on your own and
there's not so much like your support group of closest
friends. You don't have people breathing down your neck
making sure you're doing something. Just like your parents
saying just remember who you are and keep the family flag flying. That