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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview U-0012, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
This interview offers a look at efforts by the economically and politically disenfranchised Lumbee Native Americans to assert themselves in Robeson County and, to some extent, white North Carolinians' efforts to sabotage those efforts. Barry Nakell, a professor of law at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, remembers traveling to Robeson County in the mid-1970s to help the Lumbees—and a splinter group, the Tuscarora—save a historic building and strike down so-called double voting. Double voting allowed city residents in Robeson County to vote for both city and county school board, giving city elites unusual control over county schools, where most Native American children studied. Nakell succeeded in defeating the system before a United States Circuit Court. He believes that once Native Americans took more control over their education system, their most prominent citizens were freed to agitate for more rights and protections. Nakell's intervention sparked an interest in legal solutions to civil rights issues, and a steady stream of Lumbee Native Americans began earning degrees at the UNC School of Law so they could return home and advocate for other Native Americans.
A lawyer argues for Native American civil rights in Robeson County, North Carolina.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
In response to your first direction and then you can remind me of the others.
Okay.
I became a member of the faculty of the UNC law school in the spring of
1970. Sometime in 1973 I got a telephone call from a wonderful woman
named Janie Maynor Locklear, and that was the first time that I heard
about the Lumbee Indians. Janie told me a little about the Lumbee
Indians and about a situation involving Old Main on the campus at what
is now UNC-Pembroke. Janie asked to bring a group of people from
Pembroke to talk to me about the situation and I agreed. We scheduled a
meeting, and a group of people came to meet with me. As I recall the
group included Janie. I believe it may have included her husband Nick.
It included Dexter Brooks. It included Carnell Locklear, and there were
some other folks. I'm not sure I remember off the top of my head who
else was in that first group. They came and told me about the Lumbees,
about the history of the Lumbees, about the problems of the Lumbees,
about Robeson County, about the history of Robeson County and various
matters. We met for quite a while. They told me about the situation
involving Old Main. I agreed to help them in connection with their
struggle to preserve and protect Old Main. I enlisted the aid of a
colleague of mine, Professor Tom Schoenbaum. It's S-C-H-O-E-N-B-A-U-M,
to help me because at that time he was very interested in statutory
provisions for protection of environmental matters. He was getting into
environmental law, and these also involved protection of historical
buildings et cetera. So he agreed to help me with this matter, and we
did set about trying then to save Old Main. I think we were very
successful. Our legal effort I think delayed the destruction of Old Main
and eventually the political
I began to meet more people in Robeson County and began to know more people, and they all began talking to me about the fact that Old Main is a symbol of education and of the interest of the Indians in Robeson County in education. But that there were issues, real issues involving education they wanted to discuss. I talk about the Indians in Robeson County because during this time I learned that not everybody was happy with the name Lumbee. There was a group of Indians calling themselves Tuscaroras who were concerned that one of the problems that afflicted them was the name Lumbee for various reasons. So they were kind of an independent group, and I worked with both the Tuscaroras and the Lumbee, starting to work with the Tuscaroras after I'd been working with the Lumbees. I believe actually the Tuscarora group was very involved in the Old Main struggle also. They had actually been lying down in front of bulldozers to protect Old Main. So that was another important effort that had delayed destruction of Old Main until our legal efforts could go into play, and they delayed it until the political efforts could be effective.
So when we started talking about the situation of education in Robeson County, we talked about various problems of oppression, racial oppression of racial tensions, but one that stuck out as one that we might address next, should address next was the problem of double voting. That's a very clear name, very expressive name. It's not exactly right. It was more like partial double voting. The situation was at the time that there were six boards of education in Robeson County. One was called the county board of education. Five were called city boards of education. There was a Lumberton Board of Education, a Red Springs Board of Education, et cetera. By the way feel free to interrupt me at any time.
I will. You're doing great. But I'm sort of making a few notes but keep going. I will if I need to.
Well, you may be familiar with this general situation, but I'll describe it.
Yeah, please do.
The law at the time provided that—well, let me back up a little bit and
say that the county, each board of education had jurisdiction over the
schools within its area only. So the county board of education was
responsible for the schools in the county area only and had nothing to
do with the governance of the schools in any of the city areas. The city
boards of education governed the schools in their area and had nothing
to do with governing the schools in the county at all. They were all
separate and ran the schools in their separate areas, much like right
now we have a city and county school board in Orange County here, but
the county school board has nothing to do with the city schools. So the
name county school board is a kind of a misnomer. It ran the schools
outside of the cities. But it did not run all the schools in the county.
It had nothing to do
What about African Americans? What was their situation?
Well, the African Americans were spread among the various school boards,
I think, and my recollection is that the Indians were the dominant
racial group in the
Do you feel like African Americans had any more say so over the city school boards than say Indians would have, Indians that lived in the cities or—
I'll tell you generally I thought the blacks and the Indians were both oppressed groups in Robeson County at this time, and we're talking in the early '70s. That they were equally oppressed, that there were a number of devices that were used to oppress them, a number of ways that they were kept powerless, that this is a device, this double voting so called was a device that had a greater impact on Indians than on blacks. So it was of particular interest to the Indians and the elimination of double voting itself didn't help blacks as much as it did Indians. But I know, I did know about a lot of other devices that oppressed blacks and also kept blacks and Indians from working together.
Talk about those a little bit. We can get back to the double voting structure. But I'm sort of interested in that moment when you came down here, what you were observing.
Well, I wouldn't say in the moment, I spent a lot of time in Robeson
County. I came down often. It's not a matter of, I mean things were
pretty clear from the beginning. But the more I was there the more I
learned, and the more I learned about it. The one matter related to the
education system that I thought was a concern both the blacks and whites
was that the education system was deliberately kept at a low level of
quality. At that time and it think still Robeson County depended for its
economy on low wage industry. In order to attract industry to Robeson
County, folks promised low wages. One way to maintain low wages was to
have a large group of uneducated, even
Do you have any sense of because across the South in many places obviously it was difficult for blacks to vote period. When you spent time down here to what extent were Indians and blacks participating in the voting process? Was it extraordinarily high to you or what did it—
That was a subject that Dexter Brooks was particularly interested in, I
think, shortly after we met. Dexter at the time was a junior college
math teacher. So he was very good at working with math and numbers and
statistics. He did a lot of work on that. A lot of his work was in
connection with our double voting case, but he was also doing some work
on voting rights and voting rights patterns. I remember him sitting in
my office and going over figures that he'd worked on. But frankly I
don't remember
Okay. But you would say that by the time you became familiar with the struggle here that Indians and blacks were certainly trying to participate and had been doing so running candidates and things like that for a while.
Yeah, and let me say that I learned that this struggle over double
voting was a struggle that involved more than just the schools. It was
really a struggle over political power in the county because there were—
Let's see, I think when I came down there, there were no Indian lawyers.
There was a Lumbee who was a lawyer named Brantley Blue, and he was on
the Indian Claims Commission, so he was not available to provide any
legal services. I seem to recall, I don't think there was any Indian
doctor. There was an Indian pharmacist, Dr. Brooks. But by and large
most of the educated Indians in Robeson County were teachers,
predominantly teachers. Many of these worked for the county board of
education. Some of them of course worked for some of the city boards of
education, and some of them worked outside the county. But a great
number of the most educated, best educated Indians in Robeson County
worked as teachers for the Robeson County Board of Education. As long as
the Robeson County Board of Education was under the control of the
people who lived in the cities, that is largely the whites, these
people, many of whom were the natural leaders of the Indian population
were afraid to express themselves. So there was a lot of fear among
teachers, administrators, among the Indian population in the county
board of education about speaking out on behalf of the rights of
Indians, about running for office, about speaking out in support of
Indian candidates et cetera, for fear that they would lose their jobs. I
So the county board at this time was all white.
The county board of education was predominantly white. If there was, I'm trying to, I can't remember if there might have been an Indian on it. But it was definitely predominantly controlled by whites, yes.
So tell us a little bit then about the constitutional issues involved in your litigation against that system.
Well, by this time the United States Supreme Court had developed some
new constitutional doctrines about voting rights, particularly the
general right that every qualified citizen is entitled to one vote, one
person, one vote. A number of decisions about equality and fairness in
voting rights. Under those doctrines it was crystal clear that the
double voting system that I've described was unconstitutional. I don't
think there was much question about it, but we had a lot of difficulty
establishing it. The first thing we did is we went to the legislature to
try to get some help. There was only one member of the Robeson County
delegation who supported us and that was Joy Johnson. Joy Johnson was a
black member of the legislature, and the blacks didn't, as I say, have a
great interest in this double voting issue, but Joy Johnson supported us
a thousand percent, which I thought was great. I remember one of the
nicest experiences I had in the legislature, I met a senator there named
Wade Smith. Wade Smith continues to be a good friend of mine. He's a
fine, excellent lawyer in Raleigh and he was very supportive of us as
well. He was very concerned about the situation. Generally speaking on a
matter of
But I might tell you a little story I guess. This was a little story
about when we filed the lawsuit. You asked about the AIM folks. So maybe
I can back up a little bit and tell you when we decided to go forward
with the lawsuit, I had been working with the Lumbee group that I
described to you. But as I was working on it, I began working with some
of the Tuscaroras as well. They became supportive. So I actually had
separate meetings with both groups. I met in Pembroke at a restaurant as
I recall with a huge number of Lumbees, and I presented the draft of the
complaint to them and got their support. While we were meeting, Russell
Banks [actually, Dennis Banks] and another Indian from the AIM movement
came to the meeting and spoke. I kind of waited until they finished, and
they left, and I spoke to the group again, and I said—I don't remember
exactly the words—but I essentially said I don't think you need to take
to the streets. I think we have legal remedies available. I'd like you
to support this lawsuit and see if we can begin getting legal remedies.
I think this is the way to proceed. Most people I think supported that
effort. I know there were some people who supported the AIM movement. I
know there were some actions, barn burnings, I remember, and other
things attributed to the AIM folks. I think about this time there was a
big sit-in at the Department of Education in Washington as I recall or
at one of the departments in Washington. I think it was largely the
Tuscarora group that was involved in that.
Um hmm. Could you talk about that for just a minute?
Why was that the source of their problems?
Why was that the source of their problems?
Let's see. This is taking me back a little bit. Generally I think that
they thought that Lumbee was a name given to the group by white
political leadership. I believe there was a statute, state or federal,
that first used the term Lumbee and then another statute, state or
federal, that used the Lumbee. They thought there were a number of
original tribes. Tuscarora being one. Croatan being another. There were
several others. I'm trying to remember them. I know at least one other
tribal name, and they
So it's a historical difference sort of interpretation difference.
Historical, right.
Is there, were there other differences that you observed, political opinions or economic realities or—?
Well, generally speaking, my sense was, that generally speaking the Tuscarora were less educated than the Lumbee. That's not, there were less educated Lumbees also, but the more educated Indians tended to be Lumbees. The Tuscaroras tended to be largely farmers and skilled workers or unskilled workers et cetera. So I think there was also an economic disparity between them. The Lumbees were talking about people who were all exploited, but the Lumbees were a little better off than the Tuscarora generally, and politically I'd say that the Tuscarora were more radical, more action-oriented than the Lumbees. So—
Well, it's interesting—
But I think, I'd like to make clear that although I started out with the Lumbees, they're the people who first contacted me, I began working with the Tuscarora, and as long as I was working with the group, I think I was supportive of both and working with both groups. I thought both groups were working in the common interest even though from other directions. I just thought it was kind of sad that they couldn't work together, and it's kind of the human condition I think that when you get a little bit of power you start dividing it. They didn't have much and even when they didn't have much they were fighting over what little bit of power they've had. I think some of those power struggles have been hurtful to the Indians in the same way they are to other groups.
Well, it's interesting that a sense of political radicalism doesn't
always accompany greater poverty, but in certain situations in the
country during this time those two things seemed to work together. I'm
just sort of curious about your thoughts or
Well, that's a good question. When we say radicalism, that's kind of a loaded, weighted term. The Lumbees were certainly ready to stand up for their rights. I mean the time was right, and all they needed to do was throw off some shackles. One of those shackles they needed to throw off was white control of the county school board. Once that shackle got thrown off, we were successful in the double voting suit, that made a huge difference in the political power of the Indians. It made a huge difference because many of the natural leaders of the Indian community who had been held down, burdened by that shackle, felt free to soar. So they began to express themselves politically, become active politically and so that's kind of a form of radicalism if you will. They really threw off an oppressive system. I think it's probably to some extent had more to do with level of education and economic level although those are associated. I think the more educated people may have been able to understand the legal process and perhaps the political process and the importance of those, more than some of the less educated people who were more accustomed to just taking more direct action.
Because I think when people hear this interview, they're going to be reminded of the split within the African American community between say Malcolm X and Martin Luther King although the parallels aren't exactly there. That's sort of the general historical trend that on the surface of it the Lumbee and Tuscarora conflict would kind of fit into. Would you have anything to add to that or a way to kind of make that more specific or more local for other people doing research?
Well, I think my sense is that one characteristic of the human condition is that we try very hard to divide ourselves and to find differences, and we try to elevate ourselves by that and no group is immune from that. Every group does it and that that's kind of what happens when people get a little bit of power. In that sense I think it is a, you draw a fair parallel even though the exact definition of the difference between the groups may be different. But of course, there is another parallel is the difference between the more radical or direct action or action-oriented group and the group wanting to take more of a legal and political process and use non-violence to achieve their ends. That is a natural difference as well.
It might be more accurate actually to say that it was more like some of the difference at the time between the NAACP's approach and Dr. King's approach, but of course it depends on your perspective. Can we just go back one step? I had had a question about when you took the double voting case to court. On what grounds Judge Butler overturned, not overturned—
Refused to—
Refused to lift it.
To tell you the truth, I don't remember exactly what his rationale was or if he actually gave much of a rationale. I really I don't remember there was much to an opinion that he wrote to tell you the truth.
What about Mr. Britt's argument on the behalf of the school board, Robeson County School Board.
Yeah, good question. What was his argument? To tell you the truth,
Malinda, I'd probably have to go back and look to see. It's hard after
all these years to
Okay. Well, we can sort of—I'm sure we can do some research.
I remember the attorney from the attorney general's office was a very decent fellow, and I remember he made, I remember thinking he made a reasonable argument, but I think there wasn't much to it. That's why I say in the oral argument in Richmond it was pretty clear that we were going to win. There just wasn't much to their argument.
Do you feel like the federal government's growing involvement in school desegregation had any impact on this case, the Justice Department and the office of education in Washington?
Well, that's a good question. I can't say that I noticed that at the time, anything about that.
Yeah, I think, did you know Helen Sheirbeck well at that time?
Who?
Helen Sheirbeck.
Now that name does sound familiar. Who was she?
I guess she was working in the office of education in DC then, and I just, that's sort of another part of the story I need to kind of flesh out. She had some involvement in local matters here, but I don't really know what they were.
I recognize the name, but I don't remember any more than that.
Okay. Okay. Well, you talked a little bit about the impact of breaking double voting for Lumbees. Tell us, once the court case was won, what were the kind of sequence of events that took place to put the whole thing into effect, enforce it?
All right. I think as soon as we won the case or maybe shortly before, the county school board gave the superintendent a new contract for four years, which was the maximum they could give him. So they were trying to protect their power through the superintendent. We, once we won, we tried to get that contract set aside. We went for emergency relief before one of the judges in the Fourth Circuit from North Carolina who was Judge J. Braxton Craven, a judge for whom I have always had immense respect. But he turned us down. He said he thought we were not going to suffer irreparable harm, that we could wait out the four years with the superintendent and then have the new board elect a superintendent. So I was kind of disappointed by that. But then the new board was elected. It was primarily an Indian board. It did elect, appoint Purnell Swett to be the first superintendent of the new county board of education. So that was a major accomplishment.
Were you involved in sort of recruiting votes for that new board or—
I didn't have anything to do, I left that with the local people. No, I didn't have anything to do with that. I do recall, we also did, there was a fellow named Oxendine who had been appointed to the state board of education. I must say, generally speaking, that Jim Holshouser was elected governor. Jim Holshouser had come through Robeson County and promised to save Old Main and had gotten the ear of people in the county and a number of Indians changed their registration from Democratic to Republican because they liked Jim Holshouser and his promises.
I think, can you hang on just one second. I think you're sort of fading out again. Are you there?
Yeah.
Uh.
Can you hear me again? Maybe the batteries are going down. I'll try another phone. I've had that problem before too. [sounds of movement] Hello.
Hi.
Is that better?
That's great. So back up for me to Holshouser had saved Old Main.
Yeah. Okay. Governor Holshouser had promised to save Old Main, and he eventually did when he became governor. That thrilled people, and he also appointed a number of Indians to positions in his government. One of these was, I'm trying to remember his name. He was one of a group of brothers who had good positions in education. His name was Oxendine, but I don't remember the first name now. I remember being at his funeral.
Hughes.
Huh?
Was it Hughes?
Hughes, Earl Hughes Oxendine, exactly right. Fine, fine guy. When we won
the double voting suit and the county board of education still tried to
reappoint, give the superintendent a four-year contract, Earl Hughes had
been appointed to the state board of education, which had to approve the
contract. I did go with him to a meeting of the state board of education
where he tried to get them to turn it down. He was unsuccessful. It was
after that that we went to the Fourth Circuit. First to Judge Craven,
and then I think to a full panel, and we were unsuccessful. So there was
a little delay in— We then did have an election, and the Indians did
win, and then they were able after the
You were saying that a lot of Indians had switched from Democrat, their registration from Democrat to Republican. Did that influence this process?
I think that it did enable a number of Indians to get good positions, appointed to good positions in the Holshouser administration, and I do think that the Holshouser administration generally was concerned about the interests of the Indians in Robeson County. I do remember—and I tell you this is very poignant for me—but Janie Maynor Locklear, the person who contacted me from Robeson County and who had been a leader in all of these struggles developed an illness. I did a little legal work for her in trying to get some help from her health insurer in connection with this so I was in touch with her and then unfortunately she passed away. I went to her funeral and I was very pleased. We were sitting in there when I saw Jim Holshouser walk in and sit down at her funeral. I thought that was very nice. It brought back a nice memory of what an excellent governor he had been on behalf of the Indians. I must say actually Governor Jim Martin also was pretty good for the Indians. I think to some extent this might be because, are you there?
Yeah.
The Democratic party largely controlled and still controls Robeson County. So politically I think it was a good move for them to help the Indians, but I think both Governor Holshouser and Governor Martin were sincere about that, and I was impressed with what they did for the Indians in Robeson County.
It's interesting I think to some historians the fact that Indians obviously a large number of them, but still fairly isolated regionally and economically from sort of the mainstream, would carry that kind of political weight on a state level. Do you have any thoughts about that?
Well, I think the explanation is that actually there was a fellow running for Attorney General at the same time that Jim Holshouser was running for governor. He didn't win. I don't remember his name now. I'm trying to think of his name. He was a good fellow. He was very interested in and supportive of the Indians. He and I became good friends at that time because he talked to me about legal issues involving the Indians, and he went to Robeson County and campaigned among the Indians. So I think my sense is that the Republican Party saw an opportunity for an inroad into the Democratic control of the county. I think they did achieve some success in that respect although the county is still largely Democratic, and I think the number of Republicans among the Indians to my sense has diminished.
So Indians at this time tended to vote together, you would say. Was the racial situation part of the reason they felt they had an inroad or—
Right.
So it was kind of a way to split the vote.
The racial situation, there were thing they could do for the Indians and there were things they did do for the Indians, and I think the Indians were very appreciative and supportive of people who were helping them.
So tended to bring in votes for that candidate that would do those things.
Right.
Okay.
I don't want to be totally cynical. I do believe that both Holshouser and Martin understood the issues, understood the plight of the Indians and sincerely wanted to help them. I do remember hearing a report of a conversation that Governor Martin had with Joe Freeman Britt later. There was a new judgeship created that was designed by the legislature that was to be for a minority. Dexter Brooks applied for it, and Joe Freeman Britt decided to apply for it. I heard, I don't know if it's true or not, but I heard that Britt had a conversation with Governor Martin when Governor Martin explained to him that the seat was designed for a minority. Britt said, well, Governor in Robeson County I am a minority. I'm white. Governor Martin said that's not what the legislature intended by minority. So I was kind of impressed with stories like that that I heard about Governor Martin and his real understanding and support for the interests of the Indians.
Let me see. That sort of reminded me of something. Well, I guess I was thinking about, this is again going back a little bit, to the expansion of the county school board and correct me if I'm wrong but I think I remember reading there were seats added to the board that were designated for minorities.
Is that right? I don't remember that.
Okay. Okay. Well, I—[blank space]
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Okay. Once we won the lawsuit.
Yeah, then I was not quite so involved on a regular basis. I didn't necessarily keep up with everything that was going on there.
Okay. Okay. Well, all right. Then I'll have to make sure to ask a series of questions then to some other folks about the sort of implementation of the case, of the lawsuit.
I need you to speak up now. I can't hear you very well.
Oh, is that better?
Much better yeah.
Well, I guess I'd like to get, again go back a little bit in time maybe and talk a little bit about your own background and getting into law and sort of how that relates to the passion you obviously developed for the situation here speaking from your own experience. For example when you were in law school or became a law professor, what drew you to the issues here?
Well, I think it's fair to say that I had my own social and political consciousness aroused by the civil rights movement. I was in high school when the civil rights movement was getting strong, and I had my eyes opened to discrimination then. It was all around me, but I hadn't noticed it. So I became very concerned about the unfair treatment of other people, and I think that probably my senior year in high school I became very much interested in that and started learning about it.
You went to high school where?
I went to high school in Michigan.
Go ahead. I'm sorry.
I think when I was in law school of course, I think that was a large part of my motivation. When I was in law school I worked one summer for, or part of one summer for it was called LSCRRC, L-S-C-R-R-C, Law Students Civil Rights Research, I don't remember the name. But it was an internship program for law students who would go down South and help work with lawyers from the North who were coming down for limited periods of time. I worked for Marian Wright, who is now Marian Wright Edelman, in Jackson, Mississippi in the civil rights movement and also I spent, I took a week out off of law school and went down to Selma, Alabama during all the voting rights demonstrations there. So a large part of my what was shaping me then I guess was the civil rights movement.
Then you decided to go into law and law school, I mean, I'm sorry, a professor of law specifically to sort of teach others or—
Well, I don't know that I specifically had that in mind but certainly when I joined the faculty of the law school, I was in civil rights and continued my work in civil rights generally. I think my work with the Indians when Janie and the group came down to talk to me, it was right away very clear that that fit right into what I was interested in. So I was glad to work on that.
Did you have any particular response when you learned about Indian history here in North Carolina? Was it surprising or typical in some way? How would you describe your reaction to it?
Well, as I think I said I had never heard of the Lumbees, and I think I
probably didn't know anything about Indians in North Carolina until
Janie and the group
Well, talk, speaking of getting to know some people, talk a little bit about Dexter Brooks and your working relationship with him.
Sure. Well, yeah, Dexter was a gem and was a very special, a very
special person. He was very dedicated to the Indian people, and he was
very helpful to me. We worked together very closely during the time of
the double voting suit, and I mentioned he talked to me about other
plans he had on voting rights issues that I was not ultimately involved
in. But I think I'm proud to say it was the work that we did together
that encouraged Dexter to come to law school and very pleased that he
was very successful. I was also one of his professors in law school and
we were good friends. I was very pleased to see Dexter go back into
Robeson County and start a practice and begin delivering legal services
to Indians and build up a practice. Also Dexter was very genuinely
devoted to increasing the numbers of Indian lawyers in Robeson County,
and he and I worked together to try to bring Indians from Robeson County
to one of the law schools. We tried to bring at least one Indian to the
UNC law school every year and tried
Talk about Julian some also. When you met him, the same sort of things that you mentioned about Dexter in terms of what kind of work he did and—
Well, Julian was the first director of legal services in Robeson County,
legal services program, which was critical. This whole scheme, of course
when I went down as I said, when I first was invited by Janie and Dexter
and Carnell and the group down to Robeson County, there were no Indian
lawyers there. There was a tremendous need for Indian lawyers, and the
absence of Indian lawyers of course left them vulnerable, left the
Indians there very vulnerable to a variety of problems, not just the
systemic problems
Yeah, it sounds like within a sort of a ten-year time frame from I guess '73 when you first came down to, was legal services started about '83—
Sounds about right.
'82, '83 the opportunities for Indians headed sort of through the legal process had exploded perhaps largely as a result of the double voting success. Yeah. Well, is there anything you feel like I've left out to ask or—
About that period?
About that period, about anything else you feel is important.
I think that's all I can think of now about that period. There was another period that began after that, but that's a whole separate story I think.
In terms of, that had to do with schools or that had to do with—
Well, in the schools I think—
Merger.
It had to do with schools. I think, there was the Eddie Hatcher incident, the Julian Pierce murder and situations surrounding that that led to the merger of the school system. So it did have something to do with schools.
Well, I think that would certainly be an important part of how this story kind of ends. I guess if there is an appropriate ending point. I might if it's all right with you, we might come back to that at some point later in the year.
I think that is a separate story.
Yeah. When I kind of gather some more information about this earlier period. I think I would like to know more about the late '80s, Julian's murder and the school merger and basically the sort of, there's a second wave it seems like of Indian control politically that was being struggled for in the county. So yeah, I'll be coming back to that in the springtime some time. So good. Well, I appreciate your time as always.
Well, thank you Malinda. It's nice to talk—
And your help.
To you.
END OF INTERVIEW