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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview U-0017, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Angus Thompson recalls decades of civil rights activism, from pushing school integration to opposing segregated public facilities. Thompson inherited a legacy of activism from his father and became a forceful leader in the African American community in Lumberton, North Carolina, forging voting alliances with local Native Americans and opposing other black politicians' accommodationist impulses. Thompson's story is one of undiluted support for integration, which he sees as the cornerstone of racial progress in the second half of the twentieth century. This interview will prove useful for researchers looking for on-the-ground narratives of civil rights activism and an impassioned defense of the progress of the past fifty years.
An African American activist fights for integration in Lumberton, North Carolina.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
. . . black. My daddy was quite interested in education. He used to run the school board, and initiated building the school, the high school out here. I was in the first graduating class out there.
At Rosenwald?
No, no, no.
Oh.
Remember I told you I finished twice.
Right, right, right. Okay.
This was the first time. At the time I knew he had told us, well there was two of his children in the class, but he told us that we weren't going to get any credit. That's simply because the school has a criteria set for a high school, really, and that first year, the math, the science, it didn't come up to par. He knew that. It wasn't up to par. But he said, if I move you all well, it was a flop. The school wouldn't be finished. And the people moved out of there, they wouldn't stay. There was just a few of us in there. So we stayed. I was valedictorian of the class out here. We had to come back, and had to go down here to Fairmont to Rosenwald the next year, I think it was maybe three months, to get a certified diploma. That's why I said I had to graduate twice.
Right.
Yes.
That's amazing.
That's what happened there. Work-year student in 1940. A work-year student, you worked and went to school.
Okay. We call them work-study students now.
That's a new name now.
Occupational experience. Do you want to include your army—[tape cuts off]
This is tape 10.21.03-AT. The interviewee is Mr. Angus Thompson Sr. We're at his house in Lumberton, North Carolina. The interviewer is Malinda Maynor. So, Mr. Thompson, maybe you could start by telling us about your father and telling us about his starting the NAACP chapter in Robeson County, kind of that time period, what you were doing then, some of the things that were going on here.
Well, the NAACP chapter was initiated here in Robeson County by my father during the time that I was overseas. I was overseas from 1942 to 1945 when I came home. My father was very much interested in civil rights as well as education. He would step out in front as a leader in civil rights and when he could even in education. My father, I don't think he even ever finished high school, but he was very intellectual and was considered a leader in the county, church, and community activities.
What kind of work did he do?
Brick mason and farm. Yes, after he quit the farm he became a brick
mason and laid brick. In fact, he learned to lay brick when he was
chairman of the school board [actually, the school committee] out at
Back Swamp and was building that school. A good friend of his named
Professor Isley who was a regular old brick mason. At that time
So before you went to the war where were you attending school?
I attended school at Back Swamp. I was a member of the first class that you might call high school class. At that time our classes, high school, was from eighth grade to eleventh. We didn't have twelfth grade at that time. That was where I was living, out there, and that's where I finished. Because of a lack of accreditation for that school for the first year—the science department wasn't up. The library department wasn't up where we could get some credit, so I had to spend three months at Rosenwald in Fairmont the next year to get my certified diploma.
Your actual high school diploma.
A high school diploma. So, now, after that, I finished school right here
in 1937. That was at Back Swamp. In 1938 I went back three months to
Rosenwald and got a certified diploma. After that I worked in tobacco in
1939, tobacco markets, Durham, and on tobacco markets here. In 1940 I'd
saved up enough money to enter Hampton Institute. That's when I entered
Hampton on September the 9th, 1940. I was a work-year student. That's
what we were called. On October the 16th, 1940, was when the call for
all men the age of twenty-one to go to their local board for registering
for the war. That was in October of 1940. Nineteen hundred and
forty-one, my second year in school, then is when they called me to go
into the service. Of course, I got a deferment twice. The third time
they didn't grant me a deferment. They told me that I'd have to report
to my local board for service, which I did. So in 1941 I left school in
October, on October the
Okay. And you returned home then?
Returned home. Went back to school at Hampton in the trade school. When I first went I went in the Ag department, but after I came back I went to the trade school and finished trade in tailoring, then came back home and worked for a few months with another tailor who was already set up here, then went into the tailor business for myself right here on the Fairmont Road. That's what it was then. It's Martin Luther King, Jr. Drive.
Now did you get involved in the NAACP when you came back and started working?
Not immediately. I was a member, but so far as holding office, no. After my daddy's passing I became president of the chapter for a couple of terms.
And when did he pass away?
My daddy passed in 1973.
Okay.
Nineteen seventy-three, April 25th. Yes. Really my mother was the one, which was his wife, trying to hold it up, to keep it going. But one thing, after the county chapter was organized then all the municipalities here formed chapters: Fairmont, and Red Springs, St. Pauls, Maxton, and Rowland, and Lumberton. All of them formed.
Okay.
And they formed after your father formed the county chapter?
Oh yes. There was no kind of chapter here until daddy got a chapter formed in maybe 43. So we it went that way with all these chapters operating here until maybe about three, or four, or five years ago. All the chapters were slowly not doing too much, even Robeson County, so the national offices advised all the chapters in this county to merge into one chapter.
And that was just here recently?
Yes, that was just here recently, four or five years ago. So we did that, and it's basically that way now, all merged into the Robeson County chapter.
Okay.
And that's the only chapter in the county right now that's active and got a charter.
How effective was the NAACP did you think in the 1940s and the 1950s? What kinds of things was the organization doing?
In the 1950s?
Yeah.
And the 1940s? The NAACP at that time did a lot of fighting for people
who were accused of certain crimes and things of that nature that the
NAACP felt sure that they wasn't receiving justice and things like that.
Now, NAACP became active in the school integration during the 1950s, but
the NAACP was working from the national level instead of this county
level at that time. We even had Thurgood Marshall who was joint council
for the national NAACP to come here and speak. That was in September in
1952. And why that stands out, that was the year [Hurricane] Hazel came
through in September, 1952, and he was delayed. His flight was delayed
coming in so he was late
What was your reaction to that ruling?
Oh, well, we were overjoyed. Now, we knew at that time it would be a
slow process because tradition is not an easy thing for anyone to get
out of. Naturally, we knew that to integrate the schools was going to be
tough and slow because we knew that white folks were not ready for that.
They wasn't used to it. I could understand that very well, but that
didn't make it right, so we kept fighting. We kept fighting. What really
set the ball to rolling was whenever the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on
Brown v. Topeka that separate but equal was unconstitutional and the
justice department and the president ordered to integrate the schools in
Arkansas. Now that started the ball rolling. And, of course, out there,
the same as it is here, they resisted. Even the governors wasn't ready,
and the governors represented the people. Naturally, they were going to
try to satisfy the people. At that particular time—I never will forget
it. This was the first one. At that time the governor was Faubus out
there. He was Governor Faubus. Of course all these Southern governors
was against school integration, and they were just reluctant to do it.
These Southern governors, they went against it. They were slow. They
just wouldn't accept it. What they did out here in Arkansas, Faubus—the
justice department told them, "Open the door and let them integrate the
schools." The governors took the initiative to place their state
national
Was that happening here in North Carolina?
Oh, no. Not at that time.
What was happening here?
Well, the first thing after that, that was national. That was for nationally. If it was for Arkansas, it was order for everybody. They passed an order to start desegregating the schools. The Justice Department told them to do it. I'm trying to think of the word that they used, but slowly do it. That was what they was telling them to do. But, as I said, all of them bucked up. After they were moving slow, then the Justice Department turned around and kind of give them a time to speed up the integration. Of course, then it was just that the schools had to be integrated, but every school system in the South. The boards were trying their best, and the state, even our state legislature, what they did, they drew up a plan. They had been ordered to do it, how they were going to integrate.
And our plan, the State of North Carolina legislature, was named the
Pearsall Plan. Pearsall was a legislator up there. Now, the Pearsall
Plan places in it to still keep [unclear]
They started busing, and that busing was very effective even right here in Lumberton. They asked for a bond issue to build two high schools, a high school over here in the south, South Lumberton, which was predominantly black, and a high school over in Lumberton, North Lumberton which was predominantly white. Now for the two schools the bond issue was a million and a half dollars, one and a half million dollars, and it was stated the half million to build the school in South Lumberton and a million to build the one in North Lumberton. Well, I was fighting that myself just hook, line, and sinker.
So this was the early 1960s, right, the bond issue?
Yes, ma'am. I was fighting it hook, line, and sinker because at that
time I had my oldest child, Mishelle, she was four years ahead of our
second child [unclear]
How successful did you feel like the Justice Department's solution was?
It was just what we needed. I'll tell you what, if that hadn't happened today we'd be right at the brink of where we were when we was freed from slavery. That started, not only in schools, it started integration at the lunch counters, integration of the buses, integration of motels, and all of these establishments. They were fighting it, but the Justice Department was pushing it. That was all over the South. And today, today it caused one race to realize that there're smart people in all races. It caused them to realize that blacks as well as whites have to have an opportunity to advance, progress just as they have. Through the generations it has caused even this younger generation to become less— well, basically they're color blind now. The children, the white children of today and the black children or any minorities, Indians and all. Naturally now I must say this, there's discrimination and segregation amongst these races themselves to a certain degree. You're going to find that, but today the races intermingle, they co-mingle. What has brought it about is just this initiation of the school desegregation plan.
It's true right now that we have a lot of whites. We also have a lot of
blacks. But still, we got some blacks, of course most of them are by
gone by now, they don't like mixing the races. And whites, they don't
like it. But we're at a place where we can't help ourselves because
after our children reach a certain age now, we lose control over them.
You know, I've seen things take place that if they'd been during my time I'd of been hanging in a tree. Hanging in a tree. I've seen a time in this area a smart black man couldn't show it but so much. He just had to shut up. If you did, they'd call you smart, and maybe flog you to death. I give God the credit for all of this, but it just brought the races closer together.
What did you think about what Indians were doing at that time in the late 50s and early 60s, say the KKK thing, how did you react to that?
Oh, that was marvelous. That was marvelous. Now, at one time, I want to say this about the Indians. The black population was heavier than the Indian population. Most Indians, they nest. They live everywhere, but their nest was in the Pembroke area. Of course, the whites was against them just like they were against blacks, but they accepted the Indians, as I saw it, a degree above the blacks. It was like this, "Well, if we're going to have to have one to mingle with," they would prefer the Indians. You may see a little of that now. Life is just real. That's just the way it is.
Again, we all had a lot of prejudice. The black race was filled with prejudice, too. We've got that. That's human nature. But, yet, if we're going to call ourselves Christians and things we must struggle to get beyond some of that stuff. In order for us to be successful and have a successful society we must work together.
Did you feel that there were Indians that didn't want to work with blacks at that time?
To start with they partnered with the blacks. I can remember clearly that's the way we had to vote. The blacks and the Indians was getting together when it came to elections to vote. We have a little of that now, but the population of the Indians is the greatest population out of the three races now. They're much more independent now than they were back then.
Was it more equal back then, the population, or who was dominating?
The white were dominating, and our population was greater than the Indian population, but now the Indian population is greater than the black or the white. Of course, back in that time I could see that coming, myself. I give the good Lord the credit because I even spoke to one of the Indian leaders that lived not far here from me. When we was getting ready for elections, he came over here and sat down on the porch and we talked. I said, "Well, Worth," that was his name, Worth Hunt. I said, "Now, it's true that we've got to work together to have any say-so in this county with these white folks." I said, "Because we're out numbered." We all knew that. We knew that. I said, "But you know what," I told him, I said, "Now it looks to me like the Indian population was just beginning to grow." I said, "It looks to me like in five or ten years the Indian race looks like it's fixing to double their population." And he admitted it. He said, "Since you said that, that's what we plan to do." I said, "You're planning to take this county back over." Jokingly I said that, but I knew that the Indians felt like the land had been taken from them, and if I'd been in their shoes if there was any way to take it back, take it back. But I'm caught in the middle. I'm caught in the middle right here.
Right, absolutely.
Being a black man.
How did that change or shape your strategy for dealing with the problem?
Well, to tell you the truth it didn't. It has changed it a little. Right now I can tell you this, where we used to partner with the Indians there are some cases now that we might even partner with the whites, but back then we couldn't partner with the whites. They didn't want us. No way.
I can remember very clearly the first time a white ever came to me. It was a white running for county commissioners. This commissioner came to me asking me about how I felt about a run off. And I told this commissioner, I said, "Well, you know it's something to know that you've come to me." I said, "Never before have the white folks eyes been open enough to see that they might need black support." We were open to them then, but they didn't care nothing about our vote. But anyway I told this commissioner, I said, "I just had a thought." I asked him what the commission was doing, asking me—I didn't put it that way, but I knew what they was asking me—did I think I could help them get enough support to get in?
In the run off.
Yeah. From the blacks. And I just flat told him, "I don't know. I hadn't even thought of it." But I did tell him, "This is something you should have been looking at in years past." It's made racists see themselves, all of us. It's made racists see themselves. I really think, well, I hate to say it like this because in every race we've got some who we call ourselves followers of Christ. Always we follow Christ. We know His word, but yet we fail to do it. I think it's caused all of us to look at our Christian life. I know that it has been flawed beyond measure. There's still flaws in them. There's still some flaws in them.
Maybe we could talk a little bit then about after the Justice Department came in and said there had to be only one high school, the City of Lumberton tried another tactic.
Oh, yes.
Right, to keep the schools segregated. Let's talk about that.
Now, after the city built these two schools, two black high schools and had to shut them down. Then the City of Lumberton's next tactic was they'd keep them from heavily mixing. Blacks had never, never in their life, paid one cent to come to the city high schools and never been asked to if you lived out in the county. Whites had always paid, if you lived in the county to come to the city schools. But after it was forced to integrate the school, the city used the tactics, "We're going to charge the black now if they don't live in the city. We're going to charge them to come to school. Thirty-five dollars a head. We're going to charge them."
They knew that would eliminate a whole lot of blacks because they didn't have the money. And they were right. They were exactly right. So they put that fee on. They had a right to put it on if they wanted to. They had been charging the white, but we knew the reason they were doing it, to keep you out.
There were some parents, black parents had five, six, seven, eight, nine
children in school, and they couldn't pay thirty-five dollars a head.
The majority of the blacks over in the South Lumberton area, the city
limits at that time started up at McMillan Funeral Home. Well, the city
school board had already bought property out here where the junior high
is now, and had the city board to extend the city limits out there so
they could build a school and have the property. Our city council did
that. They actually did that, but they [unclear]
And who lived in those houses?
Blacks. Nothing but blacks on both sides. It's still that way now. So these people came. They couldn't pay thirty-five dollars a head. They came to me and asked me what they could do. Well, at that time my daughter had finished high school. I just had a son, and he was just entering high school. Some of these parents had five, six, seven, eight children. My response was well, "There's only one way in the world that we might be able to get in here, and that is through legal counsel. We cannot use any counsel here Lumberton," because it was nothing but white.
So you couldn't hire any lawyers because they were all white?
You could hire them, but it wouldn't make a difference. They asked me if I knew anybody that might help.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Now go ahead for us. Julius Chambers.
Julius had just sued UNC so he could go to school there. So I contacted
Julius, and he agreed to come and look our situation over and help us.
So we were meeting at McMillan Funeral Home. He came down twice to talk
to us and look the situation over. The second time he left and went back
he called me. He said, "Angus,
Is it Gale, G-A-L-E?
Carroll, C-A-R-R-O-L-L.
I'm sorry, okay.
He said, "Neither one of them want to compromise. In fact, the
superintendent told me that he wasn't interested in meeting with our
group over there. Nothing he can do for them." He said, "The city
councilman said there were two different bodies. The school board was
independent. The city council was independent of the school board." He
said, "Well, they ought to know that I know better than that. All city
councils work together with the school board on certain issues." He
said, "In the first place the school board didn't zigzag that line out
there like it did to build that school." He said, "The city council had
to put it out there. They did it for the school board." He said, "That
councilman insulted my intelligence." He said, "He really made me hot,
so I'm going to tell you what you do." He said, "You get your group
together down there." He said, "When they did that they broke a statute
of the state of North Carolina." He told me what that statute was. At
that time if you extend the city limit you had to take into
consideration all the [unclear]
So he came down the third time. When he was getting ready to go, as I've
said we always met at McMillan Funeral Home, our black city councilman
was in the rear. I
The city councilman jumped up and said that?
Yes. So I said, "I didn't know you was back there. You could have been helping us a long time ago and saved us a little money to put in our pockets." Julius said, "Angus, it's whatever you all want to do." I said, "We're ready to go and show you where you're wrong." I said, "This councilman didn't ask for to go along with us." And Julius asked me, and I said, "Sure it's all right. All we want is him to go along." So he did, he came right along with us and joked the whole while we was out there.
So after we began to show him what we was going to do, I never will
forget, we got down to McCollum Street, and when we got to McCollum
Street the next street over was Starlite Drive. That's where the Indians
lived on Starlite Drive. Nothing but blacks living on McCollum Street.
So I suggested, I said, "Let's go down half way between Starlite Drive
and McCollum Street out to Fairmont Road." That's what it was at that
time. It's Martin Luther King now. This councilman says, "No, lets go to
Starlite Drive." At that time I said, "Look, I have not talked to those
people on Starlite Drive," which I hadn't. I said, "I don't even know
what they want." I said, "They're Indians." I said, "I haven't talked
with them. They might throw a monkey wrench in it." Julius said, "That's
all right. Whatever you want." So we came on with the line coming half
way between the two streets and got to Fairmont road, and then we had
make a decision, "Where are we going now?" This
Well, now I'm living, my residence is sitting now on the other side of Starlite Drive right here where it is now. My son, he's in school, and I want him in school. This councilman said, "Why don't you pay the thirty-five dollars?" I said, "Yes, sir. I could pay you thirty-five dollars to get my son in school, but when we get through drawing this line I can just see the city council and the school board ain't going to let nobody just beyond this school district line come in there." Chambers said, "You're right." He said, "What do you want me to do?" So I just suggested, I said, "In order that my son may continue go right down the highway south, down to the south line, include my residence and then come back up, then we'll go across the other streets." He drew it on a piece of paper and wrote in there to include Angus Thompson's residence. It's in there that way by name now if they didn't throw it away.
Then we came on back to the funeral home. This councilman said, "Now, I
could take this and get it through for you all." And Chambers said,
"What do you want to about it, Angus." I said, "He can do anything. It
don't make no difference as long as it's done." We just handed it over
to him. He took it and went to the school board, and it was okayed. It
was okayed just as beautiful as ever. [Laughter.]
They're like, "Sure."
Yeah. Yeah. They could have done it all the time. Then they began to
have problems. The whites began to have a problem. Right here Clyburne
Pines, Barker Ten Mile, all of those schools. They were out of the city
limits in no school district, so they
Now is that Mr. Carroll?
Yeah, that was Carroll.
You were telling me last time about a meeting that you were at Carroll Middle School, is this that same time period?
Yeah, this is the same thing.
Late 1970s?
Yes. Now, I had a cousin. She was teaching over to Carroll Middle School. She came in one evening, and called me, "Angus," she said, "they had a meeting over here at Clyburne Pines. These white folks had a meeting in the school. They're wanting to get their children in the city school." Lawyer Lee, he was school board, and he agreed. Lawyer Lee, really, I don't even think he knew what was going on.
Lloyd Lee?
Lawyer. L-A-W-Y-E-R.
Okay.
He was the speaker, and he was telling all these people how hard the
school board had worked to get South Lumberton in. I said, "He didn't
know no better." She said, "But they'll have another meeting, and this
time for the high school." She said, "I'll let you know when they're
going to have it."
Now at that time my pastor happened—he was on the school board. He was
sitting on the stage. All the school board was sitting on the stage. My
pastor was on there. So, after they all finished I got up and went down
to the podium, all the way down. Told them who I was, "Angus
[Thompson.]" I said, "I want to set the record straight. I want to know
how South Lumberton got into the school district." And I told them what
we had went through, that we had gotten Julius Chambers out of
Charlotte, and he threatened to sue. I said, "After we showed him what
we wanted in the school line and he drew it up," I said, "our black city
councilman was with us. He told us that he could get this thing agreed
to and incorporated." I said, "So, we let him do it. That's how we got
in here, not through them working for us. It was through a fight." And
you could hear a rat jump on [unclear]
I don't remember.
Boy, they come at me. I knew those white folks didn't know what was going on. So I told them, I said, "Yeah, that's how we got in here." And I showed them how these children were growing up being misled.
Lillian: And paid a lawyer to come in.
Yeah, we had to fight to get in there.
We had to [unclear]
Yes, Lordy. That's how we got in here. Anyway, the president, he came to
me that night. She left here. They got on her so bad that she left this
place. I don't even know what happened to the organization because she
was getting a write up in the paper and all that stuff. But even at
that, later on when it came out in the paper, it came out through the
news media that the black city councilman fought for us to get in the
school district. He didn't do nothing to keep the suit [unclear]
But, I can understand those things. They didn't know. That school board lawyer said, "Angus, I didn't know all of that." I said, "I know you didn't, and you didn't try to find out either." That's just what I told him. He didn't know it, but he was with them. He was the lawyer. He was white. He could have found out, but there was nobody caring about us.
How did you get the money to pay Julius Chambers?
Out of our pockets.
How did you raise it?
Out of our pockets. In fact, I told them. At that time I knew all we
needed to do is take care of his expenses from Charlotte. He wasn't
coming to be charging us. I [Laughter.]
But he loved it. That was the point of it. NAACP was paying him. Of course the NAACP has never been a money maker. You don't make nothing too much. That's like my son. As soon as he came out they took him there and he was made state NAACP lawyer. All that stuff worked well.
Were there members of the black community who were not part of the NAACP and who resisted what you were doing, or disagreed with it?
No, no, no, no, no.
No.
Well, at the time you know I hate to tell you, but at that time most of the blacks—the whites had picked out a leader for the blacks. The white people had picked out a black leader for the blacks. When I say the white, even if we elected them, especially at that time, blacks were not thinking for themselves like they think now. The status quo was this. If you had some education or not, they were looking for somebody to follow. Not thinking for themselves, what did they know about laws and all that stuff? None of them had been exposed to that stuff. So we had a black leader.
Personally, I didn't agree with everything that these black leaders said
because our black leaders [unclear]
Let me just cut this off. [TAPE IS TURNED OFF AND THEN BACK ON.]
Okay, go ahead.
The mass of the black people at that time, they were looking for a leader, and we had black leaders. But I'm going to tell you today, that's about faded out. Mass of the black people, you could give them a dollar, two dollars, and they'd vote for anybody you said. They knew nothing about who's qualified or elections. They didn't know anybody who was on the ticket, and rightfully so. They didn't know about stuff like that. I used to ask them a whole lot. When I'd be in meetings they'd come and say, "Well who are the white leaders in here? You talking about the Black leaders? Who you all got leading you?" That was natural, somewhat comprehensive.
Integration has brought about now where the mass of the blacks think for themselves. And that's why they think for themselves now. It's integration. I was out there by myself fighting.
Is that what it felt like?
Oh, yes, Lord. Oh yes. You take my wife right here. She's a member of a
lot of civic clubs, sororities, but I'll never forget. We integrated—and
this was another thing I saw.
Do you ever think twice about that? Do you ever say, "Well, maybe some pool's better than no pool?" Do you ever say that to yourself?
Oh, no. I don't even think about it now. When I said don't think about
it, people, blacks they're where they can go somewhere and swim, and
things, and so forth. But what I could see, hey, were going to do the
same thing. Remember what I told you they did about the schools? Big
high school over there, a black high school over here, and a white. They
were going to put a city little old pool over here and build a fine pool
up there. Now, I'm going to not build one. So we didn't build none. It's
obvious why we didn't build none. I know if they built it somewhere it
would have been lots of people worked it, but just made some not well
kept. I know that. If I don't know it I feel it so strongly I still know
that. But [unclear]
I there anything, you've said so many positive things about the results of integration, and I wonder if there's anything you would look back and say was better under segregation that it is under integration?
I guess I got a little bias in me. Now, I've heard so many issues on what's better, but I never agreed with nothing I've heard.
They tried to make an issue out of hauling children. Well, it would be better for children not to have to ride so far, but let me tell you something. When they were segregated they was riding for to keep segregated. They wouldn't go to the black school. They had to bus them all the way to the white school. I hear about six, seven, eight miles out here from where I live, and they were busing children up to Lumberton High School right there in front of my door. So that busing issue weren't nothing.
Talk about busing. That's what you've always done, bus to keep from integrating. Now they made you bus to integrate, and you want to fight it. It's just that true. You have to understand things like that.
Again, I just can't think of nothing. I can't, and I've heard so many things, but I don't know one thing I'll agree with. People right now, you can ask some blacks. They'll give you a reason why we should still be segregated, but to me I haven't got enough something in me to understand how in the world you say that because the good so much surpasses the bad until if there's anything bad, the good will cover it up. It's just been a blessing to me.
My son, do you think my son could have been public defender? Good
gracious alive. He was the first black to join the Robeson County Bar.
What did you think about school merger then that happened in the 80s? What was your impression of that movement.
At the outset I was for it. I was for it. Now, I'll tell you who was
against it. [unclear]
Because they wanted to improve their—.
They had more to offer in the city schools, more to offer than the
county schools. That's why I wanted my boy in it. So, I was a hundred
per cent for it even though I didn't have anybody in the county at the
time. But my gracious, I had all my black people out there. It's just a
matter of unselfishness. That would make the schools become more on a
level.
Do you think it's been successful?
Yes. Yes, ma'am. I really do. You can find somebody to give you a reason
that they haven't, but I'll give you a whole lot that they have. Yes. It
has upgraded a lot of your county schools. When you get them all in the
same pot, if you're in that pot over there, and I'm in this pot, I don't
know what you're doing over there, and you don't know what I'm doing.
You know what's going on, and they fight for part [unclear]
There's one more question I had specifically, and then I wanted to see if there was anything else you wanted to say or anything else you felt like was important. But I was wondering during this whole time if you had ever felt like your work situation, you employment, was threatened in some way because of your political activity, or not threatened? Did you have experiences where people of different races that were actively supporting what you were doing and helping you? You had mentioned how somebody would come to you and say, "Well, Mrs. Thompson needs a job, and she teaches school, and don't you want to go along with this, that, and the other thing?" Talk about that a little bit if it's relevant.
At that particular time—first, let me say this. I wasn't what you call
selected leadership. I wasn't that. I wasn't selected leadership. If you
wasn't, you were
Let me tell you what. Listen, they were against my fight so much. They fought me because of my daddy. They fought my son because of me. Listen, here he is out of law school, comes to the city council, same black city councilman, to get some practice, office practice and stuff like that in the city. He's got his law degree now, and the city councilman tells my son, "Well, got nothing now but on a garbage truck." Now he's got a law degree.
And offered him a job on a garbage truck?
On the garbage truck. Well, now, he's got a law degree. That made him
hot. At that particular time, he said, "I'll tell you what you do. If
you pass the bar you come back and talk with me again." And it wasn't a
week before he got his notice from the bar. He had passed it. I don't
know whether he went back and showed it to him or not. If he did, and
this wasn't the right attitude, but if he did, he told him what he could
kiss. [Laughter.]
So he jumps up and is going to run against him. Well, I advised him.
He's young. I said, "Don't do that. Don't run against him for city
councilman." I said, "You just go ahead. Get yourself good in your work
and everything, your law practice, and [unclear]
Unselected leadership, they was trying to press you to the ground. But I
came up on my grand daddy's farm. I never had to really work, stoop for
these white folks. It was in my Daddy, it was just in the blood. I never
did much bending.v I'll never forget one day. My mamma got scared for me
because I kind put— I was in my teens. I heard somebody coming through
the house, and he was a white man. He done come in the front door,
coming down the hall. Nobody asked him. And I got up and was going to
put him out. I don't know why. If I came to your house I came to the
back door. My grand daddy used to send me to white folks to borrow some
bread— and I had to go to the back door. And them dogs— They'd look out
the window, "Don't hit him. He ain't no [unclear]
Man.
All that stuff. That's what I said. Here's this man, walk down through this house just like it's yours. But my mamma told me. I did get a bit scary. She told me, "She said son, don't talk to these white folks like that. Bless their souls." She was right. "You'll find yourself hanging up in a tree out there." God has just been good all the time.
You take even my daddy. She was teaching down in Fairmont. Now listen to
this. My mamma was teaching down in Fairmont. Littlefield was
superintendent down
Now, after he did that I'll never forget one night. There was two black men came to our house and they was wanting to know the way to Bertha Singletary's. Bertha Singletary's. It was kind of late at night. My daddy had his shoes off and everything. He went to the door and he met them and told them how to get there. All they had to do was go straight down the road, but for some reason they couldn't understand. And he came back to where we were to get his shoes. My mamma said, "V.J., what do you think your doing?" He was known as V.J. He said, "I'm going to show them. They're trying to go to Bertha Singletary's. I'm going to show them." My mamma said, "V.J. you'd better watch what you're doing out there. You know you just sued that school board down there." My daddy went back there to those country people and said, "I don't"—. It wasn't fifteen minutes, oh Lord. A black man came in. He came to us and said, "The Klu Klux Klan's out for somebody." That was the intersection. So they stayed down there at Buster Sanchez. I said, "The Lord have mercy. The Lord good." They'd been there to get my daddy. The Lord has been good.
I never will forget when he came, Mac Legerton. Lord knows if they
weren't after him. I'd get so scared for that poor man. I said, "Lord
have mercy." I used to be with him a lot and do what I could. When you
go against with the system you can expect retaliation. Now you can
believe that. When you go against the system, the leadership, and all
that stuff you can expect retaliation. But it's all been good. White
folks have come and asked me, the mayor right now. He doesn't even
realize. He comes to me, me [Laughter.]
But you have influence, right?
Yeah.
That's why he wants your support because you can influence the people that would vote for him.
That house over there is in the city, and this one is in the city, but I'm not. Now, why am I not in the city? Because of all this stuff I've been telling you. They didn't want to deal with me because they knew I'd fight. They didn't want to deal with me.
And really what happened, after we got the school district lines drawn and all that stuff, our city councilman went to Raleigh. He didn't have to go to Raleigh. Sam Noble he took Hector McLean's place as senator in Raleigh. Now Sam Noble, me and Sam were close, but he was against a lot of things this black councilman did, and he knew I was against it. Sam would help me out here. He got the state to drain and all that stuff, but after Hector left Sam Noble was appointed as state senator to full out his term. This black councilman went up there and got him to draw up legislation to change the method of incorporating city limits, and that was because of me.
END OF INTERVIEW